Log for #openttd on 7th June 2018:
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06:15:35  <peter1138> morning
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06:40:52  <andythenorth> innit
06:41:02  <andythenorth> no pikka? For shame :P
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08:49:43  <peter1138> andytheandythenorththenorth
08:51:03  <andythenorth> too northern
08:51:50  <peter1138> Thanks to michi_cc I can now run OpenTTD on Windows reliably ;p
08:53:34  <peter1138> Just need to sort out the non-Windows builds.
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13:43:11  <planetmaker> we have some guy who asks whether we have a bug bounty programme
13:43:34  <planetmaker> and now that I told him that we run everything 100% by volunteers he still asks what we offer for information
13:44:30  <andythenorth> glamour
13:44:36  <planetmaker> bug bounty as in for "vulnerability in your site"
13:44:40  <andythenorth> oh right
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13:44:53  <planetmaker> yeah, tempted to reply just that. Fame by thanking you on the website or so
13:44:54  <andythenorth> we offer him TrueBrain
13:44:59  <planetmaker> hihi :)
13:45:06  <andythenorth> is it a ransom thing?
13:45:06  <LordAro> o/
13:45:22  <LordAro> given the age of django it's running with, it wouldn't surprise me at all
13:45:24  <planetmaker> I've literally not more information that I just told you
13:45:36  <planetmaker> but yeah... django... might be the entry point
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13:47:23  <LordAro> HMMMM
13:47:29  <planetmaker> ^^
13:47:49  <LordAro> basically any CVE on that page? :p
13:47:55  <LordAro> can't remember what version it's running
13:49:55  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: make sure you have an offsite backup?
13:50:43  <planetmaker> probably a good idea
13:51:02  <planetmaker> yet... probably only TB can do that reasonably. Maybe rubi
13:52:17  <planetmaker> and TBs approach would be to simply trash the VM and setup something new with words like "was rubbish anyway" :P
13:55:07  <LordAro> wouldn't be wrong :p
13:55:38  <planetmaker> no. But it's his approach with everything done 3 or more months earlier ;)
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14:21:26  <andythenorth> static website :P
14:21:54  <andythenorth> the risk is someone with mirror access inserting malware
14:22:02  <andythenorth> the website is disposable no?
14:22:08  <andythenorth> hmm, maybe we have user creds in it
14:22:16  * andythenorth back to actual work
14:22:21  <planetmaker> or wiki
14:22:25  <planetmaker> it's old an ugly, too
14:22:38  <planetmaker> or has it recently been updated?
14:22:44  <planetmaker> or maybe the admin panel?
14:23:16  <planetmaker> old and ugly as in the version it uses
14:27:16  <planetmaker> or a bug in translator@, in eints?
14:27:29  <planetmaker> devzone... has seen better maintained times
14:27:33  <LordAro> wiki has not been updated
14:27:36  <LordAro> i offered!
14:27:58  <LordAro> (i did it at work recently)
14:28:58  <planetmaker> hm... but no-one let you?
14:29:06  <LordAro> no :(
14:30:51  <planetmaker> :(
14:49:14  <supermop_work_> yo
14:51:23  <peter1138> G
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14:54:19  <LordAro> H
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16:57:57  <Wolf01> o/
17:02:54  <supermop_work_> hi Wolf01
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17:04:39  <Wolf01> Quak
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17:06:57  <frosch123> moo
17:07:32  <LANJesus> QUEUEONK
17:07:34  <Wolf01> So you are monsters and made me play spider with 4 colors :(
17:10:22  <frosch123> who plays spider with less than 4?
17:10:33  <Wolf01> Me, before
17:15:04  <andythenorth> me
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18:03:14  <Tony> Hello everybody
18:04:02  <Tony> HHHOOOOBBBAAAA
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18:06:57  <peter1138> Well...
18:10:49  <Eddi|zuHause> ok?
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18:11:56  <andythenorth> also hi
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18:21:57  <LordAro> peter1138: hoba
18:24:21  <peter1138> Hmm, villagers don't seem to work properly in 1.13 snapshots :(
18:24:34  <LordAro> have they ever worked properly?
18:26:00  <Eddi|zuHause> these lazy villagers, never working
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18:35:07  <TrueBrain> [15:55] <planetmaker> no. But it's his approach with everything done 3 or more months earlier ;) <- don't be like that .... 14 days is long enough tbfh :P
18:39:08  <LordAro> apt upgrade? nah, delete and rebuild
18:39:30  <andythenorth> switch platform
18:39:32  <andythenorth> new hardware
18:39:35  <andythenorth> change protocol
18:39:41  <TrueBrain> I honestly wonder what I did to make planetmaker think that, but okay ...
18:40:25  <andythenorth> all our reps are undeserved :P
18:40:49  <TrueBrain> he is mostly bashing how the servers are maintained .. gets a bit old tbh
18:41:11  <peter1138> Well, they did used to harvest wheat and breed. Not so right now.
18:41:27  <peter1138> I don't think it was bashing :-)
18:42:29  <TrueBrain> bah, email is via gmail .. no IP to grep for
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18:47:44  <TrueBrain> Internet is weird
18:47:57  <TrueBrain> can find his FB, Twitter, vuln record .. but not his IP :P
18:48:17  <LordAro> lol
18:50:35  <TrueBrain> such a sad life
18:50:43  <TrueBrain> I miss the days
18:50:49  <TrueBrain> where things just worked
18:53:42  <andythenorth> me too
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18:53:47  <andythenorth> like my keyboard used to work
18:53:58  <peter1138> Mine works now, since I sprayed a bit of WD-40 on it...
18:54:27  <TrueBrain> LordAro: but if you want to help, think of a way to maintain something like a wiki with very low effort
18:54:35  <TrueBrain> upgrading mediawiki is drama
18:54:46  <TrueBrain> (because of several required changes to work in the current setup)
18:56:02  <LordAro> i wrote an ansible script for work
18:56:07  <LordAro> seems to work quite well
18:56:16  <LordAro> and i'm not sure i'd say that upgrading mediawiki was "drama"
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18:56:54  <LordAro> needs a test instance with everything copied over, but that's obvious :p
18:57:19  <andythenorth> is there no import-export? :P
18:57:54  <LordAro> sure, but you test changes in isolation
18:58:00  <LordAro> especially if it's big changes
18:58:31  <TrueBrain> LordAro: every upgrade, LDAP is implemented differently
18:58:44  <TrueBrain> because LDAP is via a plugin, last we upgraded .. and plugins .. are .. special
18:59:07  <TrueBrain> so upgrading is not as easy as "just install the latest version"
18:59:22  <TrueBrain> last time we ended up changing php files ..
18:59:30  <LordAro> well it's been pretty stable for the last 8? major versions afaik
19:00:04  <TrueBrain> so good for you that you made an ansible script .. not helping OpenTTD by standing on the side line: THIS IS EASY
19:00:06  <TrueBrain> :)
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19:00:14  <peter1138> LET'S DO IT
19:00:26  <TrueBrain> it should start with: why was it drama for you? what were the issues? etc :)
19:00:41  <TrueBrain> saying: I did it somewhere else too, is rarely any promise or guarantee :D
19:01:24  <TrueBrain> I always notice I get more and more annoyed by a product the longer I have to fiddle with it to get it to work, reading back my comments I made in the code :D
19:02:09  <LordAro> iirc, the main issues i had were with plugins that had been customised in the past :p
19:02:25  <TrueBrain> so let lose of what you did for work
19:02:30  <TrueBrain> and either help with OpenTTD
19:02:34  <TrueBrain> or .. well .. ssssh :P
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19:03:26  <TrueBrain> as last I checked, I am not new at this shit, and I am telling you mediawiki was a pita :D
19:03:32  <TrueBrain> well, FlySpray was worse
19:03:35  <TrueBrain> but .... \o/ :D
19:04:08  <glx> move the wiki to github ? ;)
19:04:16  <TrueBrain> if it would have a decent wiki :P
19:04:57  <TrueBrain> owh, right, imagick .. that was the other horror
19:07:10  <LordAro> so there are actually only 3 plugins on the wiki - checkuser, graphviz & ldap. checkuser looks to be an "official" plugin and is used by mediawiki so i see no issues there, graphviz - i had troubles with this, but mostly because the plugin had been hacked to provide embedded svgs in a way that was no longer compatible with the plugin, nor the wiki itself. ldap - for me, this was just a case of plugging
19:07:16  <LordAro> in login details, and not much else
19:07:22  <LordAro> i should add that my own wiki upgrade was from 1.23 to 1.28
19:07:57  <TrueBrain> again, leave away what your work did .. most likely not really relevant :)
19:08:02  <LordAro> exactly :p
19:08:03  <TrueBrain> and help to think how we are going to upgrade ours
19:08:09  <LordAro> it's difficult to say much more without seeing inside
19:08:38  <TrueBrain> so ask the questions :)
19:08:52  <TrueBrain> so I read your first question as: are there any other plugins/modifications
19:09:06  <TrueBrain> ReCaptcha is running
19:09:12  <TrueBrain> which is .. euh .. painful
19:09:20  <TrueBrain> but if it didnt change, we have it working :P
19:09:28  <LordAro> recaptcha plugin looks like it's included with mediawiki since 1.21
19:09:40  <TrueBrain> lets hope the configuration hasnt changed
19:09:40  <LordAro> ("ConfirmEdit")
19:10:04  <TrueBrain> ah, yes, the proxy ... for some idiotic reason this needs some additional effort
19:10:17  <TrueBrain> memcache
19:10:37  <TrueBrain> uses MySQL .. which is up for debate tbfh
19:11:02  <LordAro> configuration has changed a lot in newer versions - plugins are registered with wfLoadExtension(), rather than require_once blah
19:11:19  <TrueBrain> over the years it turned out that our LDAP is for some reason "special" .. it was default back then, but now software rarely "just likes it"
19:11:21  <Wolf01> <peter1138> Hmm, villagers don't seem to work properly in 1.13 snapshots :( <- I'm trying to expand a village, followed the rules etc, they still clump in a 5x4 house... 7 of them
19:11:24  <LordAro> the old way is still supported (i think the ldap plugin still uses it), but newer way is "better"
19:11:43  <TrueBrain> but okay ... first things first: should we still use mediawiki
19:11:56  <TrueBrain> if history is any say, upgrading is always more painful than time available :)
19:12:06  <TrueBrain> is there a lower-effort way of hosting a wiki
19:12:10  <Wolf01> They really recognize the houses, but seem to forget of them on the 2nd night
19:12:50  <TrueBrain> is a static website on a git repo with PR access to anyone, better? (to name one)
19:13:33  <TrueBrain> changes on the wiki are rare and far apart these days
19:13:37  <LordAro> it needs to be freely editable, tbh
19:13:43  <TrueBrain> does it?
19:13:54  <TrueBrain> depends on your definition of freely, I guess
19:14:05  <LordAro> well, without waiting for any approval
19:14:08  <TrueBrain> editing without logging in, for example, turned out to be a horrible idea :P
19:14:36  <LordAro> the wiki is slow to change, but i think that's more of a reflection of OTTD's current state, rather than because it should remain that way
19:14:57  <TrueBrain> my question remains :) We are now used to mediawiki, but is that the right tool for the job
19:15:01  <TrueBrain> what do other projects do?
19:15:05  <TrueBrain> I need someone to look into that
19:15:08  <TrueBrain> as unbiased as possible :D
19:17:41  <LANJesus> a lot of projects adopt all of the github features if they're new projects
19:17:55  <LANJesus> older projects tend to use a mix
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19:22:09  <andythenorth> depends if it's user docs or project-authored docs
19:23:35  <TrueBrain> and just to be clear: I am just asking the question
19:23:43  <TrueBrain> doing something because you have been doing it, is a piss poor reason :D
19:24:36  <Wolf01> TrueBrain: wikis made devs lazy, no more official guides because "players will write them better"... if they even do, usually the articles are filled with mistakes
19:25:00  <Wolf01> And useless things
19:25:28  <TrueBrain> I observe the same, indeed
19:25:43  <TrueBrain> (in other projects we stopped making wikis, as it never ended well :D)
19:30:47  <TrueBrain> LordAro: and if we do use mediawiki, we need to find a way to make upgrading easy .. so I imagine a docker that runs the wiki (connecting to LDAP/MySQL)
19:30:56  <TrueBrain> that also makes testing significant easier
19:31:13  <LordAro> aye, that would work
19:31:25  <TrueBrain> other ideas are welcome too, but test VMs have shown to be painful at best
19:31:45  <LordAro> :)
19:32:06  <TrueBrain> for example
19:32:11  <LordAro> seems better
19:32:21  <TrueBrain> with _ is always better
19:32:35  <TrueBrain> problem is, I cannot hand you a copy of MySQL or LDAP
19:32:48  <TrueBrain> so we need to find a way to mock that sufficiently
19:34:21  <LordAro> well there's nothing in the mediawiki db that can't be shared, surely?
19:34:50  <TrueBrain> possibly; would have to check
19:34:56  <TrueBrain> LDAP for sure I cannot ... for some silly reason :P
19:35:17  <LordAro> how about the connection? is lookup password protected?
19:35:58  <TrueBrain> connection is not public
19:36:02  <TrueBrain> (for some sane reason :D)
19:37:10  <TrueBrain> but if needed we can bounce that via SSH
19:37:22  <TrueBrain> but I am more tempted to make a mock-docker that is organized the same
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19:38:09  <LordAro> as in, only on the internal ottd "network" ?
19:38:20  <TrueBrain> yes
19:38:28  <LordAro> i guess it's too much to ask for you to set something up and give me access to only that
19:38:31  <LordAro> ?
19:38:40  <planetmaker_> hihi
19:38:41  <TrueBrain> "that"?
19:39:00  <LordAro> only the theoretical mediawiki docker instance
19:39:03  <LordAro> planetmaker_: o/
19:39:14  <TrueBrain> hmm ..
19:39:50  <TrueBrain> MySQL has to be outside the network
19:40:02  <TrueBrain> best I can do is an LDAP connection
19:40:09  <TrueBrain> (over SSH, but that is not relevant)
19:40:48  <TrueBrain> (on short term)
19:40:55  <LordAro> mhmm
19:41:04  <TrueBrain> I dont want testing stuff to connect to a production MySQL
19:41:05  <TrueBrain> (weird)
19:41:19  <LordAro> wow, paranoid
19:41:20  <LordAro> :p
19:41:36  <TrueBrain> worse: experience
19:41:39  <LordAro> this docker-compose thing looks quite useful
19:42:17  <TrueBrain> it is
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19:44:44  <LordAro> except of course.. graphviz
19:44:46  <LordAro> hrm
19:44:47  <peter1138> TrueBrain, how big are your Windows .exes now you don't need ICU? :)
19:44:49  <LordAro> is it even used anywhere?
19:45:33  <TrueBrain> no clue
19:45:35  <TrueBrain> peter1138: didnt test yet
19:46:22  <nielsm> my win64 debug builds are 22 MB
19:47:23  <LordAro> TrueBrain: wiki search (possibly unreliable) indicates Sandbox & Talk:Cargo only
19:47:26  <TrueBrain> so did anyone put nielsm in the Editors group on GitHub already? *looks at michi_cc*
19:47:27  <LordAro> neither of which are working :D
19:47:34  <nielsm> win32 debug before is 27 MB
19:47:38  <peter1138> My release build is 5.5 MB
19:47:40  <TrueBrain> lot of pages are not really working tbh LordAro
19:47:45  <LordAro> shhh
19:48:26  <nielsm> after is 17 MB
19:48:51  <TrueBrain> there we go
19:48:58  <TrueBrain> now you can approve (but not merge I think?) shit too nielsm :)
19:49:03  <TrueBrain> keep up the good comments :)
19:49:28  <LordAro> (don't approve shit)
19:49:30  <Eddi|zuHause> <TrueBrain> LDAP for sure I cannot ... for some silly reason :P <-- you could try getting a GDPR permission from everyone that ever made an account, that you want to share their data :p
19:49:35  <nielsm> peter1138: I'm piggybacking a fix for the CAT file complaining on PR #6819 if that's good enough :)
19:49:39  <peter1138> Hmm, debug build is 23MB, still large. But that doesn't matter :)
19:49:43  <TrueBrain> LordAro: it seems he has a good feeling for what shit is :D
19:49:44  <nielsm> TrueBrain WHOAH
19:49:53  <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: yeah ..... no
19:50:30  <andythenorth> someone approve my PR :P
19:50:33  <andythenorth> the readme one
19:51:24  <planetmaker_> andythenorth, if you walk me through how to do, I'm happy to give it a go
19:51:51  <TrueBrain> step 1: get a github account
19:51:53  <TrueBrain> :D
19:51:55  <nielsm> yep release builds are "tiny" now, used to be like 12 MB or more, down to 5.2 MB for win64
19:52:06  <TrueBrain> that is good news :D
19:52:20  <TrueBrain> makes my work a lot lot LOT easier
19:52:34  <planetmaker_> :)
19:52:43  <TrueBrain> LordAro: I might look into spinning up a VM to develop dockers on or something ..
19:53:25  <nielsm> you know, I remember when I saw the first pre-alpha of what became openttd in #tycoon some time in 2003 or whenever it was, the exe file was a few hundred kb or less, significantly less than the TTDW exe file, and that was a bragging point for <forget original hacker's name>
19:55:01  <michi_cc> TrueBrain: I have no idea how to add somebody to a group or if I even have the rights for that.
19:55:19  <TrueBrain> michi_cc: I assumed as much :) So I just did that :)
19:55:37  <TrueBrain> he just has to accept the invite :D
19:56:40  <m1cr0man> Hey folks. Looking for some pro tips if anyone has got them ;) I keep cloning vehicles then going in and having to manually set them to share orders with the vehicle I cloned. Is there a better way to clone a vehicle and share orders?
19:57:36  <peter1138> nielsm, it was a bit smaller in the C days even ;)
19:57:51  <peter1138> m1cr0man, ctrl-click when cloning will shrae the orders.
19:58:01  <michi_cc> nielsm: We do have a few more features today. Gameplay itself is probably the smallest part of the increase, but all the other stuff around from squirrel to better compression, networking et cetera.
19:58:01  <m1cr0man> awh, awesome! :D thanks
19:58:50  <michi_cc> OTTD even has proper IME input for strangely lettered languages on Win and OSX nowadays.
19:59:52  <TrueBrain> planetmaker_: you can also merge it!
20:00:26  <planetmaker_> I see that. Was making sure that the commit message confirmed to standards. Just pressed the button :)
20:00:47  <andythenorth> commits are checked by bot ;)
20:00:47  <peter1138> The CI system already checks that :-)
20:00:55  <LordAro> jinx
20:02:43  <planetmaker_> :)
20:06:48  <nielsm> gn, tomorrow's going to be a draining day at work
20:07:40  <nielsm> (teambuilding stuff but I have to get in to the office early and set some temps up to cover for the dept)
20:07:55  <TrueBrain> good luck :)
20:08:14  <planetmaker_> ciao unknown new openttd dev :)
20:08:26  <planetmaker_> good to see a new active face here :D
20:08:55  <TrueBrain> for dev I need to add him to yet another group :P Can be arranged .. but not my call :P
20:09:32  <planetmaker_> currently not mine really either. But the git log shows a lot of activity the last months
20:10:04  <TrueBrain> even peter1138 joined in! :P
20:10:30  <nielsm> I've mostly touched the music code, it's a pretty isolated corner ;) did it because the music was WRONG compared to dos ttd :D
20:10:45  <planetmaker_> lol :D
20:10:57  <TrueBrain> we all started here because something was WRONG WRONG WRONG :D
20:11:05  <planetmaker_> ^^
20:11:10  <TrueBrain> mine was: how do you mean, 256x256 is the ONLY POSSIBLE size?!
20:11:13  <nielsm> 1500 lines of new code to get a few little nostalgia details right
20:11:22  <planetmaker_> actually... I started here because I was lazy. Not because things were wrong :)
20:11:43  <nielsm> anyway bedtime
20:11:43  * LordAro 's was "someone removed the old AI? wtf, they should put it back"
20:11:59  <LordAro> i didn't win that one
20:12:10  <planetmaker_> :| Partially you did
20:12:24  <Eddi|zuHause> i didn't really start, i'm too lazy for even that :p
20:12:33  <TrueBrain> LordAro: oh, you were THAT GUY?! :P
20:12:40  <planetmaker_> I needed fast bridge building (keyboard shortcut) for all kind of bridges. And that's where it started :)
20:12:45  <LordAro> TrueBrain: i was one of them, yes :p
20:13:00  <TrueBrain> :D
20:13:07  <TrueBrain> so happy that cheating ass is gone (oldAI)
20:13:15  <TrueBrain> that was such a piece of crap in the code base
20:13:22  <Eddi|zuHause> but the reason i came into this channel was that the old PBS was broken
20:15:08  <Eddi|zuHause> in particular, when you had 2 trains waiting to enter the same bit of station from either side, they got stuck, and when you sent one of them through with "ignore signal", the other one would also start, crashing in the middle
20:18:56  <TrueBrain> I am off too; night!
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20:20:19  <andythenorth> yay PR approved :)
20:20:20  <andythenorth> thanks
20:26:46  <planetmaker_> my pleasure :)
20:32:18  <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, so glad we removed that feature
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21:00:40  <peter1138> Hmm, our VS project files are a bit annoying
21:01:09  <peter1138> I can never easily find source files with the virtual hierarchy that's there.
21:01:30  <Wolf01> Use the search :P
21:03:10  <peter1138> Ah, there's a folder view you can use.
21:03:25  <Wolf01> I'm wasted, I'll go to bed and play spider
21:04:41  <Wolf01> 'night
21:04:43  *** Wolf01 has quit IRC
21:05:28  * peter1138 finally gets around to binding ^W to the usual function.
21:07:19  <LordAro> ..deleting a word?
21:08:45  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think i ever used that
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21:27:05  <peter1138> Heh, no, close window.
21:27:10  <peter1138> Cos it's not a shell
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