Log for #openttd on 13th July 2018:
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11:35:05  <andythenorth> o/
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11:36:56  <Borg> howdy.. any schedule for 1.8.1 ?
11:37:42  <andythenorth> there's never a schedule Borg :)
11:37:59  <andythenorth> there's a general aim for a release around April 1 each year ;)
11:38:21  <LordAro> got to work out how to do releases again first
11:38:21  <andythenorth> currently we can't build binaries, because a new compile farm is being engineered
11:40:38  <andythenorth> on the upside, there are a *lot* of features and fixes since 1.8.0
11:45:17  <Borg> yeah.. I saw targets.. like C++14 or C++17...  :(
11:57:28  <peter1138>
11:57:28  <peter1138> oo
11:57:54  <LordAro> Borg: ":(" ?
11:58:00  <LordAro> peter1138: ikr
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12:20:55  <andythenorth> unusual lack of snark from el reg
12:21:01  <andythenorth> "From us here at The Register: good luck, Guido. We know that plenty of our readers enjoy and profit from your work. Thanks for your labours and a language that’s made a big difference. "
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13:25:23  <FLHerne> Eh, they're always much nicer about individuals than faceless megaprojects
13:25:36  * FLHerne hopes they repeal PEP 572 now :-/
13:25:46  <FLHerne> It really is horrible
13:26:31  <FLHerne> I remember when I first started with Python being quite frustrated that I couldn't do assignments in the middle of things
13:27:32  <FLHerne> But there's almost always a better alternative
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13:45:28  <LordAro> it needs rust's approach - everything is an expression that can be assigned - or nothing at all, imo
13:45:40  <LordAro> the usecases for it otherwise are vanishingly small
13:47:55  <peter1138> Ooops, my salt-state package install also installed recommended packages... 280MB later... ;(
13:48:08  <peter1138> Pretty sure I don't need java and X libraries on there.
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14:45:43  <Alberth> o/
14:51:55  <andythenorth> hi Alberth
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15:59:41  <andythenorth> hmm
15:59:46  <andythenorth> FIRS Extreme
15:59:53  <andythenorth> I can't even draw the chains :P
16:18:11  <Alberth> just draw a fully connected graph :)
16:18:47  <Alberth> 'close approximation' :)
16:19:41  <andythenorth> I think I need to fix on specific sub-chains
16:19:51  <andythenorth> like the ECS vectors, only all in one grf
16:20:50  <andythenorth> I am expanding the chemicals chain
16:20:56  <andythenorth> but it makes my head hurt tbh
16:21:09  <andythenorth> it varies a lot by era and geography
16:21:45  <andythenorth> some processes use chemical 1 as a feedstock to produce chemical 2
16:21:56  <andythenorth> and others seem to use chemical 2 as the feedstock for chemical 1
16:21:58  <andythenorth> very confusing
16:22:19  <andythenorth> sulphur, salt and chlorine are very interconnected :P
16:22:29  <andythenorth> and ammonia
16:23:32  <FLHerne> andythenorth: Do we really need this many cargoes? :-/
16:23:45  <FLHerne> I mean, I thought I was one for overcomplicating things
16:23:46  <andythenorth> of course not
16:23:52  <andythenorth> but where's the harm? o_O
16:24:19  <andythenorth> at this point it's a game of whether I can make it good with 48 cargos
16:24:21  <FLHerne> But normal FIRS is already about as many as I can sanely do anything with
16:24:33  <andythenorth> I agree
16:24:40  <andythenorth> but sometimes we have to go to 11
16:24:53  <andythenorth> if I fail, there's always FIRS 3
16:25:07  <andythenorth> if MOAR was obviously better I might not bother :)
16:25:25  <andythenorth> probability is that MOAR is worse
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16:25:55  <andythenorth> but why climb Everest instead of Snowdon?
16:25:57  <FLHerne> I see :P
16:26:23  <FLHerne> Should I bend my frame to 130mm OLD, or respace this hub to 126mm and put up with having >10mm offset?
16:26:56  <andythenorth> have you got frame-bending tools?
16:27:07  <FLHerne> I have some bits of wood and string
16:27:28  <andythenorth> the offset is already bothering you :)
16:27:32  <andythenorth> so you have to bend
16:27:36  <andythenorth> but if you break it....
16:28:37  <FLHerne> Eh, it's fairly heavily-built for a road frame, it'll probably be fine :P
16:29:33  <FLHerne> I guess I could just spring it, like I did with the old one
16:29:43  <FLHerne> But that was a nuisance
16:31:47  <FLHerne> You think 10mm would be too much offset?
16:31:58  * FLHerne doesn't have much experience fiddling with wheels
16:33:21  <andythenorth> hmm
16:33:23  <andythenorth> dunno :)
16:34:03  <andythenorth> ammonia should come from primary industry eh
16:34:12  <andythenorth> haber-bosch thing
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17:09:29  <andythenorth> ammonia, soda ash -> detergent factory -> goods(?)
17:09:31  <andythenorth> is that goods?
17:09:38  <andythenorth> I could add a lot of town cargos
17:18:30  <nielsm> household goods
17:18:31  <FLHerne> You could add a distinction between wholesale goods and local-delivery, with warehouses and distribution centres :P
17:18:39  <nielsm> yeah
17:19:29  <FLHerne> Supermarkets accept wholesale goods, obviously
17:20:03  <FLHerne> No, scale
17:20:06  <FLHerne> Retail parks
17:21:47  <nielsm> can some of the destinations perhaps be regular town buildings? can they be made to accept any goods or are they limited to just passengers/mail/food/goods?
17:22:43  <nielsm> (I guess food and goods is still enough, for edible and non-edible consumables palleted for smaller scale retail)
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17:33:48  <andythenorth> warehouse
17:34:23  <Wolf01> o/
17:37:06  <andythenorth> what cargo label for ammonia?
17:37:08  <andythenorth> ammo? :P
17:37:28  <nielsm> NH?
17:37:38  <nielsm> NH3
17:39:26  <nielsm> teach the players chemistry :)
17:39:44  <Wolf01> Project 5: sightseer does exactly that
17:39:48  <andythenorth> it's NH4 in industrial form
17:39:54  <andythenorth> cargo labels are 4 letters
17:39:56  <andythenorth> or so
17:39:57  <nielsm> that's ammonium
17:40:05  <nielsm> NH3 is ammonia, NH4 is ammonium
17:40:05  <andythenorth> you're right
17:40:14  <andythenorth> I am misreading, again
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17:49:00  <andythenorth> is amonnia unit volume, or weight?
17:49:04  <andythenorth> ammonia *
17:50:15  <nielsm> weight is my guess
17:53:43  <Eddi|zuHause> ok, this "space chem" game is insane...
17:54:06  <Eddi|zuHause> or it's making me insane...
17:54:09  <Eddi|zuHause> probably both
17:54:16  <nielsm> wikipedia says "30% of agricultural nitrogen applied in the USA is in the form of anhydrous ammonia and worldwide 110 million tonnes are applied each year."
17:54:21  <Wolf01> Ahahah I was tempted to run it too
17:54:22  <nielsm> tonnes
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18:28:46  <andythenorth> where does salt come from then? o_O
18:29:28  <Alberth> the sea
18:29:30  <andythenorth> salt mine?
18:29:32  <andythenorth> brine well?
18:29:41  <Alberth> mines too, I think
18:30:03  <Alberth> just pump water into the mine, it returns with salt
18:32:01  <andythenorth>
18:32:15  <Eddi|zuHause> what's wrong with "the steam cloud"?
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18:34:55  <Eddi|zuHause> at my place, these kind of mountains are made from copper mining byproducts
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19:13:11  <frosch123> andythenorth: brine sounds most interesting of the options
19:13:24  <frosch123> it's liquid at least
19:15:29  <andythenorth> yeah I figured the same
19:15:39  <andythenorth> currently I have salt as by product of potash mine
19:15:45  <andythenorth> like Eddi's Monte Kali
19:15:50  <andythenorth> but it seems dull
19:18:36  <nielsm> what if a newgrf industry could dictate that it always gets built together with another industry?
19:19:26  <frosch123> they can check for existing industries nearby
19:19:51  <frosch123> andy knows better whether that worked good, or deadlocked too often
19:19:53  <nielsm> sure
19:20:10  <andythenorth> I have done it in one case
19:20:15  <andythenorth> it's not super reliably
19:20:29  <andythenorth> it would be quite easy to deadlock imho
19:20:33  <nielsm> but then you have to hope that the game wants to build both
19:20:36  <andythenorth> yes
19:20:44  <andythenorth> the risk isn't so much deadlocking TTD
19:20:52  <nielsm> and hits the right spot in the random location trials
19:20:52  <andythenorth> it's getting a pathologically stupid map :)
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19:21:50  <nielsm> my idea is pretty much having a kind of interlocked industry pairs
19:22:10  <nielsm> so whenever one is built, the other is also built, and if one shuts down they both shut down
19:22:18  <andythenorth> nah
19:22:24  <andythenorth> shut down is not controlled easily
19:22:29  <andythenorth> nor triggering build
19:22:32  <andythenorth> GS _could_ do it
19:22:40  <andythenorth> but it is blind to newgrf, by design, so eh
19:22:54  <nielsm> well what if it was added as a feature :)
19:23:05  <andythenorth> then it gets interesting
19:23:11  * andythenorth wonders if bundles builds hg branches
19:24:20  <frosch123> nielsm: can you give an example, which industries would you pair?
19:24:39  <andythenorth> maybe the branch is a jenkins setting
19:24:46  <andythenorth> but I am locked out of jenkins, so I can't check
19:24:47  <andythenorth> :P
19:24:49  <frosch123> usually we have use-cases to put certain industries not close to each other, so you can transport between them
19:25:06  <frosch123> but you seem to want to do the opposite: put industries near to each other
19:25:18  <andythenorth> in FIRS, the blast furnace and oxygen furnace are examples
19:25:33  <andythenorth> one feeds the other
19:25:48  <nielsm> for example the previously mentioned kalimanjaro, have it be a separate industry that always appears near a potash kiln
19:26:03  <andythenorth> it's not just an IRL thing in Steeltown, it also makes for really hard station building
19:26:30  <nielsm> for cargo delivery and production to stations the industries are separate
19:26:42  <nielsm> but they might have some shared data for the newgrf
19:26:49  <andythenorth> so Firefox used to memory leak
19:26:54  <andythenorth> and now Chrome CPU leaks
19:27:16  <Wolf01> Chrome eats... everything
19:27:20  <andythenorth>
19:27:46  <nielsm> or, depending on how much you could be made to control layouts, have large factoyr complexes where some parts mainly take inputs and different parts produce different outputs
19:28:31  <nielsm> e.g. a car factory with separate production lines for person cars and industrial machines
19:28:40  <andythenorth> see above :P
19:30:56  <nielsm> in part also just a way to overcome the 3 in/2 out cargo limits without changing structures or any other code :)
19:33:31  <andythenorth> I considered that for refinery cargos
19:33:40  <andythenorth> but eh
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19:57:03  <JustAsking> just noticed OpenTTD on Windows Store for $$$, is this allowed?
19:58:36  <andythenorth>
19:59:41  <nielsm> ottd is GPL, GPL expressly allows usage for any purpose including offering for sale at any price you want
20:00:07  <nielsm> as long as you offer any buyers a copy of the source code used to build the exact version received
20:00:47  <andythenorth> why is hg so hostile to branches?
20:01:06  <andythenorth> literally anything you do with branches, it tells you off
20:01:08  <nielsm> (buy it, demand to receive a copy of their modifications which must also be GPL licensed, integrate those modifications into master, put an official, free version on the windows store instead)
20:02:44  <nielsm> (and if they do not comply with your demand for sources, ask EFF for help in court)
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20:12:04  <andythenorth> started it
20:14:09  <Alberth> hg branches bt making a new clone, iirc
20:14:15  <Alberth> *by
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20:14:40  <Alberth> at it used to do that
20:14:50  <Alberth> *at least
20:27:12  <andythenorth> hmm where should steel go :P
20:27:15  <andythenorth> and alumninium
20:27:24  <andythenorth> such thinking to do
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20:53:37  <Alberth> to the USA
20:54:52  <Alberth> bye
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22:16:49  <Wolf01> 'night
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