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I saw targets.. like C++14 or C++17... :( 11:57:28 <peter1138> https://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/07/13/python_creator_guido_van_rossum_quits/ 11:57:28 <peter1138> oo 11:57:54 <LordAro> Borg: ":(" ? 11:58:00 <LordAro> peter1138: ikr 11:58:24 *** Thedarkb has quit IRC 12:00:22 *** roidal has joined #openttd 12:05:01 *** Thedarkb has joined #openttd 12:20:55 <andythenorth> unusual lack of snark from el reg 12:21:01 <andythenorth> "From us here at The Register: good luck, Guido. We know that plenty of our readers enjoy and profit from your work. Thanks for your labours and a language that’s made a big difference. " 12:24:50 *** cHawk has quit IRC 12:58:10 *** snail_UES_ has joined #openttd 13:08:55 *** swedneck[m] has joined #openttd 13:11:25 *** snail_UES_ has quit IRC 13:22:17 *** nielsm has joined #openttd 13:24:28 *** synchris has joined #openttd 13:25:23 <FLHerne> Eh, they're always much nicer about individuals than faceless megaprojects 13:25:36 * FLHerne hopes they repeal PEP 572 now :-/ 13:25:46 <FLHerne> It really is horrible 13:26:31 <FLHerne> I remember when I first started with Python being quite frustrated that I couldn't do assignments in the middle of things 13:27:32 <FLHerne> But there's almost always a better alternative 13:44:56 *** juzza1 has joined #openttd 13:45:28 <LordAro> it needs rust's approach - everything is an expression that can be assigned - or nothing at all, imo 13:45:40 <LordAro> the usecases for it otherwise are vanishingly small 13:47:55 <peter1138> Ooops, my salt-state package install also installed recommended packages... 280MB later... ;( 13:48:08 <peter1138> Pretty sure I don't need java and X libraries on there. 14:06:22 *** sim-al2 has quit IRC 14:45:22 *** Alberth has joined #openttd 14:45:22 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Alberth 14:45:43 <Alberth> o/ 14:51:55 <andythenorth> hi Alberth 14:52:31 *** Gja has joined #openttd 14:54:01 *** Wormnest has joined #openttd 15:32:25 *** tokai has joined #openttd 15:32:25 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai 15:36:09 *** HerzogDeXtEr has joined #openttd 15:59:41 <andythenorth> hmm 15:59:46 <andythenorth> FIRS Extreme 15:59:53 <andythenorth> I can't even draw the chains :P 16:18:11 <Alberth> just draw a fully connected graph :) 16:18:47 <Alberth> 'close approximation' :) 16:19:41 <andythenorth> I think I need to fix on specific sub-chains 16:19:51 <andythenorth> like the ECS vectors, only all in one grf 16:20:50 <andythenorth> I am expanding the chemicals chain 16:20:56 <andythenorth> but it makes my head hurt tbh 16:21:09 <andythenorth> it varies a lot by era and geography 16:21:45 <andythenorth> some processes use chemical 1 as a feedstock to produce chemical 2 16:21:56 <andythenorth> and others seem to use chemical 2 as the feedstock for chemical 1 16:21:58 <andythenorth> very confusing 16:22:19 <andythenorth> sulphur, salt and chlorine are very interconnected :P 16:22:29 <andythenorth> and ammonia 16:23:32 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Do we really need this many cargoes? :-/ 16:23:45 <FLHerne> I mean, I thought I was one for overcomplicating things 16:23:46 <andythenorth> of course not 16:23:52 <andythenorth> but where's the harm? o_O 16:24:19 <andythenorth> at this point it's a game of whether I can make it good with 48 cargos 16:24:21 <FLHerne> But normal FIRS is already about as many as I can sanely do anything with 16:24:33 <andythenorth> I agree 16:24:40 <andythenorth> but sometimes we have to go to 11 16:24:53 <andythenorth> if I fail, there's always FIRS 3 16:25:07 <andythenorth> if MOAR was obviously better I might not bother :) 16:25:25 <andythenorth> probability is that MOAR is worse 16:25:38 *** Progman has joined #openttd 16:25:55 <andythenorth> but why climb Everest instead of Snowdon? 16:25:57 <FLHerne> I see :P 16:26:23 <FLHerne> Should I bend my frame to 130mm OLD, or respace this hub to 126mm and put up with having >10mm offset? 16:26:56 <andythenorth> have you got frame-bending tools? 16:27:07 <FLHerne> I have some bits of wood and string 16:27:28 <andythenorth> the offset is already bothering you :) 16:27:32 <andythenorth> so you have to bend 16:27:36 <andythenorth> but if you break it.... 16:28:37 <FLHerne> Eh, it's fairly heavily-built for a road frame, it'll probably be fine :P 16:29:33 <FLHerne> I guess I could just spring it, like I did with the old one 16:29:43 <FLHerne> But that was a nuisance 16:31:47 <FLHerne> You think 10mm would be too much offset? 16:31:58 * FLHerne doesn't have much experience fiddling with wheels 16:33:21 <andythenorth> hmm 16:33:23 <andythenorth> dunno :) 16:34:03 <andythenorth> ammonia should come from primary industry eh 16:34:12 <andythenorth> haber-bosch thing 16:36:37 *** Flygon has quit IRC 16:46:34 *** Thedarkb has quit IRC 16:51:17 *** Thedarkb has joined #openttd 16:59:46 *** frosch123 has joined #openttd 17:06:40 *** sla_ro|master has joined #openttd 17:09:29 <andythenorth> ammonia, soda ash -> detergent factory -> goods(?) 17:09:31 <andythenorth> is that goods? 17:09:38 <andythenorth> I could add a lot of town cargos 17:18:30 <nielsm> household goods 17:18:31 <FLHerne> You could add a distinction between wholesale goods and local-delivery, with warehouses and distribution centres :P 17:18:39 <nielsm> yeah 17:19:29 <FLHerne> Supermarkets accept wholesale goods, obviously 17:20:03 <FLHerne> No, scale 17:20:06 <FLHerne> Retail parks 17:21:47 <nielsm> can some of the destinations perhaps be regular town buildings? can they be made to accept any goods or are they limited to just passengers/mail/food/goods? 17:22:43 <nielsm> (I guess food and goods is still enough, for edible and non-edible consumables palleted for smaller scale retail) 17:28:26 *** Thedarkb has quit IRC 17:29:34 *** Wolf01 has joined #openttd 17:33:48 <andythenorth> warehouse 17:34:23 <Wolf01> o/ 17:37:06 <andythenorth> what cargo label for ammonia? 17:37:08 <andythenorth> ammo? :P 17:37:28 <nielsm> NH? 17:37:38 <nielsm> NH3 17:39:26 <nielsm> teach the players chemistry :) 17:39:44 <Wolf01> Project 5: sightseer does exactly that 17:39:48 <andythenorth> it's NH4 in industrial form 17:39:54 <andythenorth> cargo labels are 4 letters 17:39:56 <andythenorth> or so 17:39:57 <nielsm> that's ammonium 17:40:05 <nielsm> NH3 is ammonia, NH4 is ammonium 17:40:05 <andythenorth> you're right 17:40:14 <andythenorth> I am misreading, again 17:45:58 *** gelignite has joined #openttd 17:49:00 <andythenorth> is amonnia unit volume, or weight? 17:49:04 <andythenorth> ammonia * 17:50:15 <nielsm> weight is my guess 17:53:43 <Eddi|zuHause> ok, this "space chem" game is insane... 17:54:06 <Eddi|zuHause> or it's making me insane... 17:54:09 <Eddi|zuHause> probably both 17:54:16 <nielsm> wikipedia says "30% of agricultural nitrogen applied in the USA is in the form of anhydrous ammonia and worldwide 110 million tonnes are applied each year." 17:54:21 <Wolf01> Ahahah I was tempted to run it too 17:54:22 <nielsm> tonnes 17:59:35 *** Borg has quit IRC 18:13:12 *** techmagus has quit IRC 18:26:24 *** Maraxus has joined #openttd 18:27:00 *** Supercheese has joined #openttd 18:28:46 <andythenorth> where does salt come from then? o_O 18:29:28 <Alberth> the sea 18:29:30 <andythenorth> salt mine? 18:29:32 <andythenorth> brine well? 18:29:41 <Alberth> mines too, I think 18:30:03 <Alberth> just pump water into the mine, it returns with salt 18:32:01 <andythenorth> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monte_Kali_(Heringen) 18:32:15 <Eddi|zuHause> what's wrong with "the steam cloud"? 18:32:26 *** Maraxus has quit IRC 18:34:55 <Eddi|zuHause> at my place, these kind of mountains are made from copper mining byproducts 19:12:51 *** techmagus has joined #openttd 19:13:11 <frosch123> andythenorth: brine sounds most interesting of the options 19:13:24 <frosch123> it's liquid at least 19:15:29 <andythenorth> yeah I figured the same 19:15:39 <andythenorth> currently I have salt as by product of potash mine 19:15:45 <andythenorth> like Eddi's Monte Kali 19:15:50 <andythenorth> but it seems dull 19:18:36 <nielsm> what if a newgrf industry could dictate that it always gets built together with another industry? 19:19:26 <frosch123> they can check for existing industries nearby 19:19:51 <frosch123> andy knows better whether that worked good, or deadlocked too often 19:19:53 <nielsm> sure 19:20:10 <andythenorth> I have done it in one case 19:20:15 <andythenorth> it's not super reliably 19:20:29 <andythenorth> it would be quite easy to deadlock imho 19:20:33 <nielsm> but then you have to hope that the game wants to build both 19:20:36 <andythenorth> yes 19:20:44 <andythenorth> the risk isn't so much deadlocking TTD 19:20:52 <nielsm> and hits the right spot in the random location trials 19:20:52 <andythenorth> it's getting a pathologically stupid map :) 19:21:01 *** sla_ro|master has quit IRC 19:21:50 <nielsm> my idea is pretty much having a kind of interlocked industry pairs 19:22:10 <nielsm> so whenever one is built, the other is also built, and if one shuts down they both shut down 19:22:18 <andythenorth> nah 19:22:24 <andythenorth> shut down is not controlled easily 19:22:29 <andythenorth> nor triggering build 19:22:32 <andythenorth> GS _could_ do it 19:22:40 <andythenorth> but it is blind to newgrf, by design, so eh 19:22:54 <nielsm> well what if it was added as a feature :) 19:23:05 <andythenorth> then it gets interesting 19:23:11 * andythenorth wonders if bundles builds hg branches 19:24:20 <frosch123> nielsm: can you give an example, which industries would you pair? 19:24:39 <andythenorth> maybe the branch is a jenkins setting 19:24:46 <andythenorth> but I am locked out of jenkins, so I can't check 19:24:47 <andythenorth> :P 19:24:49 <frosch123> usually we have use-cases to put certain industries not close to each other, so you can transport between them 19:25:06 <frosch123> but you seem to want to do the opposite: put industries near to each other 19:25:18 <andythenorth> in FIRS, the blast furnace and oxygen furnace are examples 19:25:33 <andythenorth> one feeds the other 19:25:48 <nielsm> for example the previously mentioned kalimanjaro, have it be a separate industry that always appears near a potash kiln 19:26:03 <andythenorth> it's not just an IRL thing in Steeltown, it also makes for really hard station building 19:26:30 <nielsm> for cargo delivery and production to stations the industries are separate 19:26:42 <nielsm> but they might have some shared data for the newgrf 19:26:49 <andythenorth> so Firefox used to memory leak 19:26:54 <andythenorth> and now Chrome CPU leaks 19:27:16 <Wolf01> Chrome eats... everything 19:27:20 <andythenorth> https://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/8740/Steeltown.png 19:27:46 <nielsm> or, depending on how much you could be made to control layouts, have large factoyr complexes where some parts mainly take inputs and different parts produce different outputs 19:28:31 <nielsm> e.g. a car factory with separate production lines for person cars and industrial machines 19:28:40 <andythenorth> see above :P 19:30:56 <nielsm> in part also just a way to overcome the 3 in/2 out cargo limits without changing structures or any other code :) 19:33:31 <andythenorth> I considered that for refinery cargos 19:33:40 <andythenorth> but eh 19:47:16 *** Thedarkb has joined #openttd 19:50:44 *** glx has joined #openttd 19:50:44 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v glx 19:52:38 *** JustAsking has joined #openttd 19:56:10 *** roidal has quit IRC 19:57:03 <JustAsking> just noticed OpenTTD on Windows Store for $$$, is this allowed? 19:58:36 <andythenorth> https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/issues/6832 19:59:41 <nielsm> ottd is GPL, GPL expressly allows usage for any purpose including offering for sale at any price you want 20:00:07 <nielsm> as long as you offer any buyers a copy of the source code used to build the exact version received 20:00:47 <andythenorth> why is hg so hostile to branches? 20:01:06 <andythenorth> literally anything you do with branches, it tells you off 20:01:08 <nielsm> (buy it, demand to receive a copy of their modifications which must also be GPL licensed, integrate those modifications into master, put an official, free version on the windows store instead) 20:02:44 <nielsm> (and if they do not comply with your demand for sources, ask EFF for help in court) 20:03:21 *** tokai|noir has joined #openttd 20:03:21 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai|noir 20:07:54 *** Gja has quit IRC 20:08:41 *** tokai has quit IRC 20:12:04 <andythenorth> started it http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/push/LATEST/docs/html/economies.html#extreme 20:14:09 <Alberth> hg branches bt making a new clone, iirc 20:14:15 <Alberth> *by 20:14:39 *** tokai|noir has quit IRC 20:14:40 <Alberth> at it used to do that 20:14:50 <Alberth> *at least 20:27:12 <andythenorth> hmm where should steel go :P 20:27:15 <andythenorth> and alumninium 20:27:24 <andythenorth> such thinking to do 20:32:59 *** gelignite2nd has joined #openttd 20:36:13 *** JustAsking has quit IRC 20:39:27 *** gelignite has quit IRC 20:48:49 *** sim-al2 has joined #openttd 20:53:37 <Alberth> to the USA 20:54:52 <Alberth> bye 20:54:54 *** Alberth has left #openttd 21:10:07 *** andythenorth has left #openttd 21:49:19 *** gelignite2nd has quit IRC 22:09:12 *** KouDy has quit IRC 22:09:23 *** nielsm has quit IRC 22:12:24 *** techmagus has quit IRC 22:16:49 <Wolf01> 'night 22:16:53 *** Wolf01 has quit IRC 22:20:33 *** Stimrol has joined #openttd 22:21:48 *** KouDy has joined #openttd 22:23:59 *** RafiX has quit IRC 22:29:40 *** Supercheese has quit IRC 22:32:20 *** Wormnest has quit IRC 22:39:08 *** KouDy has quit IRC 22:47:15 *** Progman has quit IRC 22:52:18 *** tokai has joined #openttd 22:52:19 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai 22:55:51 *** Supercheese has joined #openttd 23:03:10 *** KouDy has joined #openttd 23:07:49 *** KouDy has quit IRC 23:10:57 *** iSoSyS has joined #openttd 23:15:40 *** HerzogDeXtEr has quit IRC 23:17:36 *** Stimrol has quit IRC 23:23:09 *** Suprcheese has joined #openttd 23:25:29 *** synchris has quit IRC 23:28:17 *** Thedarkb has quit IRC 23:29:32 *** Supercheese has quit IRC 23:29:40 *** Suprcheese is now known as Supercheese 23:45:40 *** frosch123 has quit IRC 23:47:38 *** KouDy has joined #openttd