Log for #openttd on 23rd July 2018:
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07:26:24  <TrueBrain> can anyone translate (pun intended) bug report #6862?
07:26:36  <TrueBrain> owh, written by peter1138, so maybe he can
07:26:41  <TrueBrain> I am scratching my head here what it says ...
07:29:59  <peter1138> There are basesets that use translations
07:30:13  <peter1138> They are inserted into the baseset during compilation
07:30:36  <peter1138> The compile basesets are also included in the git repo
07:30:57  <peter1138> *compiled
07:31:12  <Eddi|zuHause> i think it means the .obg files have to be rebuilt on translator changes
07:31:15  <peter1138> blah blah blah
07:31:19  <peter1138> yes
07:31:22  <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: tnx :D
07:31:32  <TrueBrain> why are the compiled baseset files in the git repo? Given they are ... compiled?
07:31:44  <peter1138> I don't know
07:31:54  <peter1138> maybe removing them is a better solution
07:32:09  <TrueBrain> you would think that happens on building of the project
07:32:16  <peter1138> Indeed
07:32:22  <peter1138> I can submit a PR to do that
07:33:27  <andythenorth> so....3 output cargos per industry then? o_O
07:33:27  <TrueBrain> I think it is first important to know why it was done this way :D
07:33:37  * andythenorth derails conversation :P
07:33:41  <Eddi|zuHause> the .grf files should probably stay, as they need grfcodec to build, but the .obg files?
07:38:20  <TrueBrain> peter1138: I think it is easiest if we move the request to the project that handles eints<->openttd connection; that should trigger frosch123 enough for him to either remove the precompiled stuff from git, or add it to the commit script :D
07:52:12  <planetmaker> o/
07:52:55  <planetmaker> TrueBrain, the compiled grf file(s) are in the repo as you should be able to build OpenTTD w/o grfcodec. In principle you could remove them and require grfcodec as build dependency
08:01:24  <TrueBrain> why do we need grfcodec to add some translations in a baseset file?
08:01:42  <Eddi|zuHause> you don't.
08:01:56  <Eddi|zuHause> the .grf file is something different than the .obg file
08:02:15  <TrueBrain> ah, okay
08:02:26  <TrueBrain> so that leaves the quest: why do the obg need to be precompiled? :)
08:03:36  <Eddi|zuHause> it contains the md5sum of the grf files?
08:04:02  <Eddi|zuHause> so it's naturally the result of compiling the grf file
08:05:14  <TrueBrain> that sounds fair
08:05:33  <TrueBrain> guess eints-openttd needs some additional lines in some script than
08:05:52  <peter1138> Are there any platforms where the ob* files are not built? Visual Studio?
08:07:27  <peter1138> Hmm
08:07:44  <LordAro> i imagine that'll be the reason, that's why the .sq files aren't autogenerated
08:07:45  <peter1138> Uh
08:07:56  <peter1138> So I removed the *ob* files and... they are not regenerated :p
08:11:43  <peter1138> How's that build system rewrite going...?
08:16:33  <peter1138> It doesn't update the translations if grfcodec is not installed.
08:17:40  <peter1138> (So if you don't have grfcodec installed, you wouldn't notice that these ob* files get updated)
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08:29:18  <planetmaker> yep
08:31:20  <Eddi|zuHause> so the file generation must be split in two steps, one which calculates the md5 after creating the grf file, and the other that adds the translations. so the translation step can run without grfcodec present
08:31:24  <peter1138> I think they should be built independently of the grf files, and the final version not included in the repo.
08:31:36  <peter1138> Hmm.
08:33:20  <Eddi|zuHause> it might defeat the point of the md5 sum somewhat if it were recalculated every time the translations are updated?
08:34:08  <peter1138> ?
08:34:51  <Eddi|zuHause> dunno if that made any sense, still early  :p
08:35:37  <peter1138> It doesn't.
08:40:33  <planetmaker> the grf contains the translations which are added by eints. And the baseset file describtion (obg) contains the md5 of the grf files which make up the base set
08:40:59  <planetmaker> so yes, first you need to compile the grf which includes the strings. And then you can re-generate the obg with updated md5
08:42:09  <planetmaker> so it is like:
08:42:24  <planetmaker> * eints commit modifies a file which contains strings for the grf
08:42:35  <planetmaker> * grfcodec uses that file and generates the grf
08:42:46  <planetmaker> * whatever uses the grf to generate the obg file
08:42:50  <planetmaker> 3-step basically
08:43:24  <planetmaker> currently eints commits only cover the 1st step. The 2nd and 3rd are only done when a committer does so manually
08:43:32  <Eddi|zuHause> no, the translations are almost definitely in the .obg file
08:43:47  <planetmaker> Generally, there's not much traffic in the strings for base set translations...
08:43:51  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think basesets have an action14
08:43:56  <planetmaker> hm
08:44:00  <planetmaker> let me check
08:46:28  <Eddi|zuHause> there seems to be ./media/baseset/*.obg with a placeholder for the translations, and ./bin/baseset/*.obg with the translations included. so the process probably has the relevant steps already, it just needs to run
08:46:57  <planetmaker> yes-ish. there's an awk file in media/baseset which takes care of that if run
08:47:19  <planetmaker> and there's which likely calls that
08:48:16  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, so that part of the baseset makefile must be run also if grfcodec is not present
08:48:27  <planetmaker> yup
08:53:05  <peter1138> Yeah, the translations are in the ob* files, not the grfs themselves.
08:53:32  <peter1138> I'm also talking about obm files, which don't have grfs
08:53:45  <peter1138> But still depends on grfcodec to be built :p
08:56:26  <TrueBrain> tnx for splitting it up peter1138; that is a lot easier to review :D
09:01:21  <TrueBrain> hmm .. it seems GitHub no longer sends me emails when someone pushes new stuff in a PR
09:01:23  <TrueBrain> that is annoying
09:02:11  <TrueBrain> peter1138: #6780, you added and removed the same label :D Was that intended?
09:02:35  <peter1138> TrueBrain, I was on the wrong issue :P
09:02:47  <TrueBrain> it seems it now needs a review again, not?
09:03:11  <peter1138> Not sure, don't remember if I pushed to it.
09:03:19  <TrueBrain> you did :)
09:03:26  <peter1138> Ah...
09:03:33  <peter1138> Ok, then I should've left it off
09:03:38  <TrueBrain> I really dont like GitHub for the workflow .. we really have to figure out our own it seems
09:03:55  <TrueBrain> I am thinking of making DorpsGek remove 'waiting-on-author' when someone updates a PR
09:04:09  <TrueBrain> and that we add the label when we left comments
09:04:25  <TrueBrain> not sure .. but keeping overview with default github stuff is .. euh .. yeah, no
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09:10:06  <TrueBrain> hello andythenorth! Feel like testing the Forest patch this week? :D (mostly the different climates)
09:10:20  <andythenorth> probs yes
09:10:23  <andythenorth> now that my build work
09:10:24  <TrueBrain> \o/
09:10:25  <andythenorth> works *
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10:03:55  <peter1138> Please don't, over develop it.
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11:30:55  <andythenorth> the forest patch?
11:30:58  <andythenorth> or just everything?
11:31:04  <TrueBrain> the world dude; THE WORLD!
11:31:11  <andythenorth> just everything
11:34:28  <peter1138> Just quoting a necro-post.
11:50:27  <andythenorth> oof
11:50:35  <andythenorth> NRTs is all broken
11:50:39  <andythenorth> let's delete it
11:50:48  <TrueBrain> ok
11:52:16  <TrueBrain> that bug seems unfixable indeed
11:52:24  <TrueBrain> okay, closed the PR, remove your repository, and the branch
11:52:25  <TrueBrain> you are welcome
11:52:39  <peter1138> :D
11:52:43  <andythenorth> I like -D
11:52:51  <peter1138> andythenorth likes the D
11:53:01  <TrueBrain> as long as it aint a double-D!
11:53:02  <andythenorth> so I should delete my fork too>
11:53:04  <peter1138> Damn, you wait ages for lunch, and then it's over in seconds.
11:53:09  <TrueBrain> I removed your fork
11:53:12  <TrueBrain> and the files on your disk
11:53:14  <TrueBrain> and the backup
11:53:14  <andythenorth> and peter's fork, because I forked from that
11:53:25  <TrueBrain> you know what
11:53:28  <TrueBrain> I just remove the Internet
11:53:29  <TrueBrain> how about that
11:53:29  <andythenorth> rm *
11:53:42  <andythenorth> I am glad we had this chat
11:53:54  <TrueBrain> \o/
11:54:12  <peter1138> Meanwhile, the "realistic" shunting patch is buggy and people are saying it's ready and should be included in patch packs...
11:54:31  <andythenorth> well we included ICU
11:54:33  <andythenorth> and that's buggy
11:54:40  <peter1138> It is now, it used to be fine.
11:54:45  <andythenorth> oh dear
11:54:54  <andythenorth> so many and very things
11:54:54  <TrueBrain> when he tested it, it was fine! :P
11:55:00  <peter1138> ;D
11:55:04  <andythenorth> but is it lunch?
11:55:16  <peter1138> Well, I had mine :S
11:55:22  <peter1138> Was I too early? Should I have another?
11:55:24  <TrueBrain> I had mine 2 hours ago :o
11:55:52  <TrueBrain> wtf is shunting, I wonder ..
11:56:18  <andythenorth> read the thread
11:56:19  <TrueBrain> ah
11:56:20  <TrueBrain> that is
11:56:22  <TrueBrain> yeah
11:56:25  <TrueBrain> "the thread"
11:56:26  <TrueBrain> I just googled it :P
11:56:39  <peter1138> model railway simulation
11:57:00  <TrueBrain> you have a VR game "Derailed"
11:57:03  <TrueBrain> where you are in a locomotive
11:57:09  <TrueBrain> and have to collect all the wagons and move them to the right spot, etc
11:57:14  <andythenorth>
11:57:18  <TrueBrain> pretty funny, but difficult
11:57:50  <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: i guess the quality of "well tested" has not really changed in the past 10 years :p
11:58:04  <TrueBrain> "it compiles" == "well tested"
11:58:18  <TrueBrain> "it works for me" == "looks good to me"
11:58:27  <TrueBrain> holds for any Open Source project I am afraid :P
11:58:32  <Eddi|zuHause> "patchpack X has it included"
11:59:15  <TrueBrain> I like all the animated gifs :D
11:59:58  <TrueBrain> so I can make that on a big hill it can bring up one wagon at the time?! :D
12:00:59  <Eddi|zuHause> probably
12:01:11  <Eddi|zuHause> unless you're using a fancy newgrf
12:01:17  <Eddi|zuHause> then it crashes :p
12:01:35  <TrueBrain> mb's fault, I am sure
12:02:36  <andythenorth> but if you try and explain anything in the thread
12:02:39  <andythenorth> you are using fancy words
12:02:42  <Eddi|zuHause> it was definitely MB who put into Snail's head to make this kind of fine grained detail into his grf :p
12:02:46  <andythenorth> and are part of an entourage
12:03:03  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: that is just a typical comment from the wannabe-devs that make up the entourage, tbbh
12:03:31  <TrueBrain> fancy pancy, I love fancy words
12:03:33  <TrueBrain> I never know what they mean
12:03:36  <TrueBrain> but I do love them
12:03:38  <TrueBrain> they are so cute and pretty
12:03:43  <TrueBrain> we are still talking about words, right?
12:04:18  <Eddi|zuHause> so does that mean i'm in TrueBrain's entourage or TrueBrain is in my entourage?
12:04:33  <TrueBrain> can I refuse?
12:04:49  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm unsure how the rules are on this :p
12:05:28  <andythenorth> I was unclear
12:05:32  <TrueBrain> can we put them in a newgrf?
12:05:36  <andythenorth> duno
12:05:48  <Eddi|zuHause> no, you must use a modern language
12:05:51  <TrueBrain> can we get that clear? I am a bit scared about this entourage now
12:05:52  <andythenorth> but no specx
12:06:02  <TrueBrain> lua!
12:06:07  <TrueBrain> lets add lua!
12:06:10  <TrueBrain> Yes? Please?
12:06:23  <TrueBrain> I wish I had time to do stuff on OpenTTD, instead of all this infrastructure blabla
12:06:24  <TrueBrain> meh
12:07:30  <andythenorth> the entourage definition is here
12:08:51  <TrueBrain> I do not understand that reply at all
12:08:57  <TrueBrain> I do like that he will only post serious comments
12:09:03  <TrueBrain> I guess a joke is out of the question now!
12:11:00  <andythenorth> is it a knock-knock joke?
12:11:06  <andythenorth> they're the best kind
12:11:13  <andythenorth> I'd do Interrupting Cow
12:11:19  <andythenorth> but it's really hard in async chat
12:11:35  <TrueBrain> non-blocking chat :D
12:11:41  <TrueBrain> YOU CANT TELL ME TO SHUT UP
12:11:44  <TrueBrain> @whoami
12:11:44  <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: TrueBrain
12:11:48  <TrueBrain> hmm .. I can ...
12:14:25  <andythenorth> forums are so shit for development
12:14:27  <andythenorth> but eh
12:14:37  * andythenorth needs to test forests
12:19:34  <peter1138> TrueBrain, yeah, I played derailed. The demo had a bug with time going too fast so it's waaaay too hard.
12:19:46  <TrueBrain> but it is fun :D
12:19:58  <TrueBrain> I derailed so many trains :D
12:20:02  <peter1138> :D
12:20:24  <peter1138> Ah it's Derail Valley
12:20:31  <TrueBrain> tomato tomato :D
12:20:35  <TrueBrain> is there a non-beta already?
12:20:37  <peter1138> Hmm still not released :(
12:20:40  <TrueBrain> booooo
12:20:47  <peter1138> TrueBrain, google thiks I need to be more exact ;(
12:20:56  <TrueBrain> pfft
12:20:59  <peter1138> "steam" + "derailed" brings up a lot of wrong hits, hehe
12:21:16  <peter1138> Although actually the correct hit is the first item
12:21:58  <peter1138> "I read that path signals are a CPU hog"
12:21:59  <peter1138> Sigh
12:22:13  <TrueBrain> I read a lot of stuff
12:22:41  <peter1138> Somebody spread this myth around everywhere.
12:22:52  <TrueBrain> sorry about that
12:22:54  <TrueBrain> :P
12:23:30  <peter1138> If you get to the bottom of it, it's a very minor train-performance thing where stopped trains don't *instantly* restart when the path is free, nothing to do with CPU.
12:23:46  <TrueBrain> ghehe
12:23:54  <peter1138> Someone must have seen "performance issue" and figured it was CPU.
12:25:28  <andythenorth> derail valley looks fun
12:25:32  <andythenorth> no headset tho :P
12:25:41  <TrueBrain> headset is not important; VR glasses is :D
12:25:42  <peter1138> It is. Total micromanagement.
12:26:07  <peter1138> There's another VR game which is .. a model railway simulator.
12:26:20  <peter1138> Rolling Line
12:26:46  <peter1138> You can change scale and drive trains, of course.
12:26:49  <andythenorth> graphics look weird
12:26:55  <andythenorth> not one thing nor the other
12:27:01  <peter1138> Yeah, pretty stylised.
12:28:21  <andythenorth> so what's the forest patch for then?
12:28:29  <andythenorth> is it just 'fewer trees'?
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12:39:53  <imdak> Hey. I was interested in what mods does everybody play with, so I have made a survey for that. If you wanna share your favorite mods, you can do so here:
12:56:26  <TrueBrain> who dares to click that link to check if it is legit?
12:56:34  <TrueBrain> (sorry, but it just sounds scetchy :D)
12:57:09  <andythenorth> probs fine
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14:01:27  <imdak> I can vouch for the survey being legit ;)
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14:15:13  <TrueBrain> nielsm: seems you have a fan which wants to alter your FPS window some more :)
14:15:21  <TrueBrain> possibly best if you take a look at it (both at the PR as the issue)
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14:31:45  <Inari> Hi there! Not sure where to ask. So I installed OpenTTD with the Windows installer, and that worked okay. Now I'm trying to use a mod, which comes with a precompiled binary, so I extracted that and try to start it, but it seemed to want me to download opengfx/sfx/msx. I did download opengfx and placed it into the baseset folder, as the readme of it tells me to. However, upon starting, OpenTTD
14:32:17  <Inari> doesn't seem to recognize that, and the OpenTTD readme tells me to put it into the data folder instead, where it seems to find it, but just proceeds to tell me that the files are corrupted or missing?
14:43:39  <nielsm> TrueBrain, that's something to annoy me :D he had a month or more to bring this up before the PR was merged
14:43:55  <nielsm> guess not everyone looks at the PRs :)
14:49:39  <Inari> Ah, perhaps because the ttd version is quite old
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15:15:59  <Alberth> o/
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15:17:43  <andythenorth> oops
15:17:46  <andythenorth> over-developed it
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15:20:44  <Alberth> :o
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15:31:12  <TrueBrain> nielsm: indeed :) And that is okay :) At least he made a PR, that I always appreciate :)
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15:44:35  <Eddi|zuHause> so, can anyone write me a browser plugin that only works on the youtube "watch later" playlist, and replaces all video links there with ones without the playlist attached to it? so i can click on videos there and only watch that video.
15:45:48  <Eddi|zuHause> basically, "s/&list=WL//"
15:50:21  <Alberth> you are aware that the performance record of anyone isn't very good eh?
15:50:49  <Eddi|zuHause> possibly, but is it really worse than mine? :p
15:50:53  <andythenorth> about the same
15:50:59  <andythenorth> I found the wikipedia page I needed finally
15:51:00  <andythenorth>
15:52:08  <andythenorth> I should replace Ethlyene
15:52:09  <andythenorth>
15:52:11  <Alberth> :O  input! input!
15:52:27  <andythenorth> 'Petrochemical Intermediate Feedstocks'
15:52:33  <andythenorth> it's quite long for a cargo name though :P
15:53:01  <Alberth> chemists have a long track record for inventing long names :p
15:53:55  <andythenorth> I wondered about 'petrochemicals'
15:53:57  <Eddi|zuHause> now imagine in german chemical compound words, where you leave out such spaces inbetween
15:54:39  <andythenorth> I think I need to do a chemical industry economy
15:54:44  <andythenorth> and extreme isn't that :P
15:54:55  <Alberth> yes, and yes :)
15:55:22  <Eddi|zuHause> well, you will horribly fail on that with the input/output restrictions :p
15:55:23  <andythenorth> so does it make sense to just have 'petroleum fuels' and 'petrochemicals'?
15:55:26  <Alberth> extreme chemicals :)
15:55:41  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
15:55:47  <andythenorth> this would fold 'ammonia' and 'ethylene' into petrochemicals
15:55:58  <andythenorth> lye, sulphur, soda ash would all stay
15:56:03  <andythenorth> and chlorine
15:56:14  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think ammonia fits that category
15:56:23  <andythenorth> folding too far?
15:56:39  <andythenorth> the main advantage of replacing ethylene is I can give it a second destination somewhere
15:56:50  <andythenorth> whereas ethylene can only go to the polymer plant
15:57:42  <andythenorth> I like ammonia
15:58:02  <andythenorth> but if I fold it into petrochemicals, then petrochemicals can go to the specialty chemicals plant
15:58:11  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but petrochemicals are pretty much all carbon-chain stuff. while ammonia is nitrogen stuff
15:58:33  <andythenorth> ok
15:58:41  <andythenorth> so I'm trying to cover the big 5 or so
15:59:45  <andythenorth>
16:01:52  <andythenorth> apparently oxygen isn't widely transported, although I did consider a cryo plant
16:02:04  <andythenorth> similarly nitrogen
16:02:22  <andythenorth> ethanol I tried but I think it conflates with alcohol in game
16:03:05  <andythenorth> ethylene, ethylene dichloride and propylene all originate in petrochem and product plastic, so not worth splitting
16:03:15  <andythenorth> produce / product /s
16:04:23  <Eddi|zuHause> you mean splitting "consumer alcohol" and "industrial alcohol" (includes methanol and stuff)?
16:05:32  <andythenorth> yeah
16:05:41  <andythenorth> or using consumer alcohol in industrial processes
16:05:47  <Alberth> beer vs alcohol, right?
16:05:52  <andythenorth> I couldn't see a way to make it good, so I didn't do it
16:06:03  <andythenorth> beer, wine, vodka, cide vs. industrial alcohol
16:06:23  <andythenorth> there was a similar issue with acetic acid which would be a nice food additive, and is used for plastic + glue
16:06:45  <andythenorth> industry uses petrochem acetic acid, but food use must be derived from crops
16:07:25  <andythenorth> I removed the biorefinery for related reasons, as they produce ethanol, not petroleum fuels
16:21:12  <Alberth> bio-ethanol :)
16:22:04  <Alberth> but yeah, reality is always more complicated
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16:35:48  <andythenorth> TrueBrain:
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17:06:08  <Wolf01> o/
17:06:15  <Wolf01> $chan is +R
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17:13:33  <TrueBrain> frosch promised me!
17:13:35  <TrueBrain> @mode -R
17:13:35  *** DorpsGek sets mode: -R 
17:18:32  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: I really hope GCP can give us a nice offer ... would be such a relieve :)
17:18:44  <andythenorth> I know nothing about them :)
17:18:50  <andythenorth> I just thought the article was interesting :)
17:19:18  <andythenorth> I live in a world where single-app VMs are deployed
17:19:33  <TrueBrain> its better than multi-app, what we had before that
17:19:39  <TrueBrain> but containers is the next step
17:19:44  <TrueBrain> so you are just on the ladder :D
17:20:24  <andythenorth> :P
17:20:41  <andythenorth> we might actually go back to multi-app, with mono-repo
17:20:56  <andythenorth> but single-tenant
17:21:11  <TrueBrain> the other day I read an article of a dude that claimed going from microservices back to monolitic was the best move they made in years .. it made me cry ...
17:21:40  <andythenorth> there have been a few of those
17:21:48  <andythenorth> I think it very depends on your use case
17:22:04  <TrueBrain> if you went to microservices and it is failing, it is most likely not because of microservices
17:22:05  <andythenorth> much of life is simpler with a monolithic app
17:22:22  <TrueBrain> yup; its simpler to put in a single human brain
17:22:29  <TrueBrain> and there often architects go wrong :)
17:22:40  <andythenorth> someone showed me nanoservices
17:22:47  <andythenorth> I assumed it was a troll, but no
17:22:55  <TrueBrain> thinking about your product as a big black box is rarely a good idea :)
17:23:07  <andythenorth> nanoservices are single method calls/returns over http
17:23:58  <TrueBrain> lambda functions
17:24:09  <TrueBrain> the name is somewhat changing over the last few months
17:24:12  <TrueBrain> more towards "functions"
17:24:17  <TrueBrain> serverless functions
17:24:29  <TrueBrain> but people have issues with the word "serverless", as they are not serverless .. just from the point of the author it is
17:24:30  <andythenorth> I guess it's nice when state doesn't matter
17:24:43  <TrueBrain> stateless, lambdas are very very good (and fast, etc)
17:24:47  <TrueBrain> stateful, it is not hopeless
17:24:57  <TrueBrain> you just need a fast "database" next to it
17:25:00  <TrueBrain> for example, redis
17:25:11  <andythenorth> how does it roll back transactions? :P
17:25:16  <TrueBrain> as functions can persist on most clouds for a period of time, where they are recycled
17:25:25  <andythenorth> when something like 'create user' is a nanoservice
17:25:46  <andythenorth> there are probably better examples, but eh
17:25:54  <TrueBrain> a function is a single transaction
17:25:57  <TrueBrain> so he can roll himself back
17:26:04  <andythenorth> nah the example I saw was overly-nano
17:26:16  <andythenorth> I'm sure it was a clever troll
17:26:26  <TrueBrain> I havent heard the name nanoservice yet
17:26:31  <TrueBrain> but lambdas is very popular atm
17:26:35  <TrueBrain> all cloud providers suplpy it
17:26:55  <TrueBrain> I tried it for OpenTTD .. I didn't like it :P
17:27:08  <TrueBrain> (you need proper infrastructure :D)
17:27:24  <andythenorth> so on AWS lambda
17:27:26  <andythenorth> what's a good case?
17:27:37  <TrueBrain> any REST API tbh
17:27:40  <andythenorth> I assumed it was for things like 'render this PDF from this input I'm passing'
17:27:58  <nielsm> you need a language where a single source file compiles to a full distributed system of many elements
17:28:02  <TrueBrain> I guess it could work for that too ... but often lambdas are very small pieces of work
17:28:20  <andythenorth> the nanoservices example I saw was much closer to 'convert this int to a string'
17:28:23  <TrueBrain> but I think most of the webshops etc can be done in lambdas
17:28:30  <andythenorth> or 'add this value to a list'
17:28:35  <TrueBrain> at a certain point your overhead wins
17:28:50  <TrueBrain> so there is a line you dont want to cross
17:29:05  <TrueBrain> if you do good system design, you have a presentation layer, application layer and data layer
17:29:15  <TrueBrain> in each layer are a lot of entries (APIs)
17:29:21  <TrueBrain> in the data layer for example: create_user
17:29:23  <peter1138> Is it dinner time yet?
17:29:33  <TrueBrain> in the application layer: if (is_admin) create_user
17:29:35  <andythenorth> peter1138: definitely
17:29:39  <andythenorth> deliveroo eh?
17:29:42  <TrueBrain> in the presentation layer an HTML website to create a user if you are admin
17:29:47  <TrueBrain> all these API entries, can be lambdas
17:29:53  <peter1138> Oh god no, I am not made of money.
17:29:53  <TrueBrain> but going any smaller ... I doubt that helps
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17:31:26  <nielsm> in my (limited) experience the border between what should be "application" and what should be "data" layer is really blurry
17:32:13  <TrueBrain> it shouldn't; but I often notice people do have trouble finding the line
17:32:18  <nielsm> so even when you try to split it up you get a tight coupliung
17:32:28  <TrueBrain> as the application layer answers business questions
17:32:37  <TrueBrain> and the data layer answers "data" questions, or "service"
17:33:24  <TrueBrain> but yeah ... if the line becomes blurry, just stop making the separation :)
17:33:37  <TrueBrain> for most small projects it is also a non-issue .. just use an ORM, and you will be fine
17:33:42  <andythenorth> Alberth: Eddi|zuHause I tried 'Petrochemical Intermediate Feedstocks' :P
17:33:46  <TrueBrain> only for really big projects you want those layers to be far apart :)
17:34:14  <TrueBrain> (as you will want to replace that MySQL with Postgres, without rewriting EVERYTHING)
17:34:50  <TrueBrain> but then you have architects, and they should know how to make layer separation clear to anyone, and everything goes fine :D
17:34:56  <Alberth> andythenorth:  XML Parsing Error: mismatched tag. Expected: </g>. Location: Line Number 742, Column 3:
17:35:12  <TrueBrain> that line 742 .. always the same one ...
17:35:17  <TrueBrain> we had this talk with him many times
17:35:20  <TrueBrain> but he doesnt want to listen
17:35:26  <Alberth> :o
17:35:50  <Alberth> stubborn line eh?  better remove it andy
17:36:24  <andythenorth> I am curious about that, I don't get the parse error in chrome :)
17:36:35  <andythenorth> nor FF
17:36:47  <andythenorth> oh and the zoom tool is working agan
17:36:50  <andythenorth> again *
17:36:53  <Alberth> right, I do use ff :p
17:37:08  <andythenorth> I spent last week chasing a rendering bug in webkit that keeps disappearing
17:37:15  <andythenorth> so we can't repro it in QA
17:37:29  <Alberth> </a>
17:37:29  <Alberth> --^
17:37:35  <Alberth> more hints :)
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17:38:33  <Wolf01> So I'm more poor of 500€, and more rich of 2 Voltron, some motors and a bag of parts I need
17:39:28  <Alberth> file looks ok
17:40:16  <andythenorth> Wolf01: :o
17:40:59  <Wolf01> Nasty 40T gears... they cost a lot, more than 8€ only for them :[
17:41:49  <Alberth> 'reload' resolves the problem
17:53:18  <Alberth> at least it's extreme in cargo names already :)
17:53:38  <Alberth> but stuff does make sense to me
17:54:18  <peter1138> TrueBrain, hmm, can the commit linter check for this like versioned files being modified?
17:54:34  <TrueBrain> holy crap, that sentence!
17:54:40  <TrueBrain> do you supply a lexer with that?
17:55:11  <peter1138> TrueBrain, hmm, can the commit linter check for versioned files being modified during build?
17:55:27  <TrueBrain> "versioned files"
17:55:30  <TrueBrain> no clue :)
17:55:34  <Alberth> stuff in git
17:55:39  <peter1138> version controlled
17:56:10  <TrueBrain> yeah, there were a few other options there :) Like savegame revision, etc :)
17:56:13  <Alberth> ie you want a check that at least one file is being changed?
17:56:54  <TrueBrain> and I guess "commit linter" is you jumping to a solution, so I guess the question is: can the CI detect that is a file in git is changed after build?
17:57:05  <Eddi|zuHause> you mean like it checks whether projects/generate produces a change in project files?
17:57:06  <peter1138> jesus fucking christ
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17:57:15  <TrueBrain> okay ... sorry I am not as smart as you
17:57:18  <TrueBrain> holy mozy ..
17:58:09  <TrueBrain> guess next time I will not take the effort to understand him or something (?)
17:58:11  <Alberth> that sentence was clearly too difficult for us
17:58:52  <TrueBrain> seriously wondering if it is me, but I fail to see how .. or am I this alienated that I would like to know the question before answering?
17:59:24  <Alberth> or understand the problem, that might help too :)
18:00:06  <TrueBrain> always makes me giggle at work, people come to me with a solution .. than you have to backtrack to the problem .. which can take some significant amount of time :D
18:01:01  <Eddi|zuHause> i can't count the number of times i answered forum posts with "... and which problem exactly is that meant to solve?"
18:05:00  <andythenorth> yeah
18:05:00  <andythenorth> but
18:05:17  <andythenorth> sometimes it's hard to formulate the problem
18:05:27  <andythenorth> and easy to get stuck on a possible solution
18:05:33  <TrueBrain> a human is poorly build to give a problem :)
18:05:34  <andythenorth> "if I could only do x then..."
18:05:46  <andythenorth> so it becomes 'how to get x', not 'why do x'
18:05:48  <TrueBrain> that is why it is important to take the time to walk back to the problem :)
18:06:02  <andythenorth> ok let's play this game
18:06:19  <andythenorth> can anyone find me a picture of a Copper Naphthenate production plant
18:06:20  <andythenorth> ?
18:06:35  <TrueBrain> lazy much? :P
18:06:41  <andythenorth> no you have to ask 'why'
18:06:47  <TrueBrain> owh!
18:06:49  <TrueBrain> why?
18:07:18  <andythenorth> because I want to know if it looks like this
18:07:26  <TrueBrain> why?
18:07:39  <andythenorth> because that industry already exists in FIRS
18:07:53  <TrueBrain> why?
18:07:54  <andythenorth> and it needs a chemical input
18:08:12  <andythenorth> it exists to give a wood -> engineering supplies chain
18:08:19  <TrueBrain> why?
18:08:25  <andythenorth> because IRL mines need pit props
18:08:28  <TrueBrain> why?
18:08:31  <TrueBrain> (this game is a bit boring)
18:08:36  <andythenorth> did you do 5 yet?
18:08:42  <andythenorth> ok we win
18:08:47  <TrueBrain> \o/
18:08:54  <andythenorth> prizes all round
18:09:03  <andythenorth> shall I just delete the industry?
18:10:08  <TrueBrain> I refuse to answer that question!
18:10:54  <andythenorth> it's ok, I'm googling :P
18:10:59  <andythenorth> google will tell me the answer
18:12:07  <Wolf01> <- Lego OTTD anyone?
18:12:58  <TrueBrain> cool :D
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18:26:42  <TrueBrain> frosch123: PR # 6863, if you happen to have time, do we do that for all windows? (in other words, PR looks okay to you too?)
18:31:06  <frosch123> i think we do that for all windows
18:31:16  <frosch123> there is a script to generate script_window.hpp
18:32:22  <frosch123> we even do it for the intro_gui
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18:32:32  <frosch123> and highscore_gui
18:32:36  <frosch123> so, quite sure for all :)
18:33:01  <TrueBrain> cool, tnx :D
18:33:24  <TrueBrain> if you dont touch code long enough, it is better to validate these things :D
18:33:36  <TrueBrain> but I see michi_cc beat me to it :P
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18:39:40  <frosch123> hmm, i wonder how long i can ignore the fact that i have to get up at 5 am tomorrow :/
18:40:00  <frosch123> though i worry that andy does that every day :p
18:41:22  <TrueBrain> lol :D
18:41:27  <TrueBrain> why so early? Sounds horrible ..
18:41:45  <TrueBrain> okay, landscape.html is a bit weird .. it says: "see signals", which I cannot find ..
18:42:11  <andythenorth> I used to do that
18:42:14  <andythenorth> no longer
18:42:23  <andythenorth> 6am-7am most days
18:42:47  <frosch123> i have a meeting at 10am, 600km away
18:43:20  <TrueBrain> oef
18:43:22  <TrueBrain> good luck :s
18:43:25  <LordAro> lovely
18:45:58  <TrueBrain> frosch123: in saveload.cpp is this list of savegame versions and their svn number; now we no longer have that, it is empty
18:46:21  <TrueBrain> which leads to "clean" merges which should happen (paraphrasing peter1138 here)
18:46:29  <TrueBrain> do we want to add the PR there or something?
18:46:33  <frosch123> the list is used to know the savegame version of stable branches
18:46:40  <michi_cc> TrueBrain: Next time, make him do the work himself.
18:46:43  <frosch123> the numbers in between are just for the looks
18:47:04  <TrueBrain> michi_cc: who? JGR or nielsm? :)
18:47:13  <TrueBrain> frosch123: so better to remove those?
18:47:16  <michi_cc> nielsm in this case.
18:47:24  <TrueBrain> michi_cc: I agree; frosch123: you too? :)
18:47:42  <frosch123> no idea, did not follow :)
18:47:56  <TrueBrain> sorry, 2 conversations at once
18:48:01  <TrueBrain> let me branch of one of them
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19:01:03  <TrueBrain> about to approve adding m8 to the map .. somehow that feels a bit scary ..
19:01:12  <TrueBrain> we really need nightlies for the testing :D
19:01:46  *** Alberth has left #openttd
19:02:16  <andythenorth> yair :)
19:02:21  <andythenorth> is someone working on that? o_O
19:02:41  <TrueBrain> *looks around*
19:02:44  <TrueBrain> *looks in the mirror*
19:02:46  <TrueBrain> *CRAP*
19:04:59  <Wolf01> <TrueBrain> we really need nightlies for the testing :D <- make a patchpack
19:05:30  <TrueBrain> yeah, and ask someone to compile it
19:05:33  <TrueBrain> and put that somewhere
19:05:36  <TrueBrain> and publish that link :P
19:05:55  <TrueBrain> I am a bit annoyed that the old CF is offline .. but okay .. with the CD working, it should go a bit faster
19:06:03  <nielsm> nightlies should possibly also include open PRs?
19:06:04  <TrueBrain> just this weather ... I work so poorly in this weatherrrrrrrrrrr
19:06:15  <TrueBrain> nielsm: the idea is, for me at least, that you can say: @dorpsgek create binaries
19:06:25  <TrueBrain> and that he posts links to binaries after a while, for that version of the PR
19:06:29  <TrueBrain> so on demand
19:06:34  <nielsm> right
19:06:46  <TrueBrain> if you have better/smarter ideas, I would love to hear it :D
19:06:50  <nielsm> so as PR author you can state "ready for testing"
19:06:59  <TrueBrain> yup!
19:07:07  <TrueBrain> lot of unanswered questions, like who can request the binaries
19:07:31  <TrueBrain> but also possibly it is just easier to publish them for every PR
19:07:51  <TrueBrain> not sure yet, if it should be on-demand or not
19:08:00  <TrueBrain> from a security perspective, I rather have a dev can only request it :)
19:08:09  <nielsm> yeah I thought about, if the PR passes CI checks just publish the resulting builds?
19:08:16  *** Wacko1976 has joined #openttd
19:08:19  <nielsm> ah good point
19:08:21  <nielsm> yeah
19:08:40  <TrueBrain> (you don't want to publish binaries that, looking at the PR, bricks peoples machine :D)
19:08:45  <andythenorth> TrueBrain: how hot is it there?
19:08:50  <TrueBrain> I am a bit paranoid in those regards ;)
19:08:56  <TrueBrain> it was 28 degrees 30 minutes ago
19:08:58  <TrueBrain> cooling down now
19:09:27  <andythenorth> only 21 here
19:09:32  <andythenorth> bit lame
19:09:37  <nielsm> also a way to re-request a new build when master has moved since the last CI run
19:10:16  <michi_cc> nielsm: You IRC client should be telling you something.
19:10:23  <TrueBrain> DorpsGek-github allows all that nielsm; I just need someone to add it :D
19:14:15  <andythenorth> ho ho
19:14:27  <TrueBrain> christmas time?
19:14:49  <andythenorth> found a bonza cargo
19:15:01  <andythenorth> I like it when RL validates what I need to do in game
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19:23:32  <TrueBrain> right, time to watch a movie or something; nn!
19:25:03  <andythenorth> bye TB
19:32:35  <andythenorth> so 3 industry outputs then? o_O
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20:11:14  <Eddi|zuHause> 64 industry outputs you mean?
20:11:25  <andythenorth> that's a nice idea
20:11:33  <andythenorth> but I think the industry window might not work very well
20:11:45  <andythenorth> the logical route now is 'no constraints'
20:11:48  <Eddi|zuHause> 1 industry that accepts all cargos
20:11:48  <andythenorth> right?
20:11:53  <Eddi|zuHause> and produces all cargos
20:12:25  <Wolf01> :D
20:12:26  <Eddi|zuHause> dunno, sometimes constraints lead to creativity. sometimes they're just stupid
20:12:47  <Wolf01> Like Pokémon with the 4 moves constraint
20:13:13  <Eddi|zuHause> i have no clue what that is
20:13:22  <Eddi|zuHause> or which of those two categories :p
20:14:01  <Wolf01>
20:15:53  <andythenorth> I could patch FIRS to model 64 outputs
20:15:58  <andythenorth> and see whether it's stupid
20:16:17  <andythenorth> I think it ends in giant industries like:
20:17:35  <Eddi|zuHause> add more cargos that must be delivered in tiny quantities, so you need shunting and cargodist both working simultaneously :p
20:18:47  <andythenorth> oil refinery complex: accepts oil; produces: bitumen, ethylene, BTX, gasoline, ammonia, propylene, sulfur, petcoke
20:19:29  <andythenorth> steelworks: accepts: coal, iron ore, limestone, scrap metal, alloys, acid: produces: steel, slag
20:19:48  <andythenorth> also tar, sulphur, ammonia
20:20:32  <andythenorth> eh with shunting and cdist, could just leave wagons there filling up
20:20:37  <andythenorth> is shunting for RVs too?
20:20:40  <andythenorth> and container ships?
20:21:42  <Wolf01> Shunting container ships?
20:21:47  <andythenorth> yes
20:23:48  <Wolf01> You could make 20x20 tiles industries and abuse of tile acceptance
20:24:27  <nielsm> I still think multi-part industries (or sub-industries?) could be a neat solution
20:24:56  <andythenorth> o_O?
20:25:06  <andythenorth> I suggest pipelines + conveyors :P
20:25:11  <andythenorth> whole new transport type
20:25:28  <Wolf01> Use NRT for that
20:26:13  <andythenorth> nielsm: what's the proposal?
20:26:53  <nielsm> my idea is to introduce a CB when an industry is built, where the industry returns that it also wants these N other industries of types A,B,C built nearby
20:27:07  <nielsm> (and if those can't be built too, building of the main fails)
20:27:22  <andythenorth> cascading
20:27:25  <nielsm> the sub-industries become linked to the main and they have some shared data
20:29:34  <nielsm> otoh it probably complicates opening/closing rules too much so just having a mega-industry might be better
20:29:48  <andythenorth> do a 64 cargos patch? o_O
20:29:58  <nielsm> though maybe allow some flexibility with multi building complexes where all buildings don't need to be on the same level
20:30:03  <nielsm> (is that already supported?)
20:30:12  <andythenorth> on the same tile?
20:30:16  <andythenorth> tile height /s
20:30:37  <andythenorth> tile height is arbitrary, unless the newgrf enforces flat
20:30:56  <andythenorth> however there's no reliable terraforming, which can be a problem
20:31:54  <nielsm> so some manner of sub-buildings that are placed separately from the main building, but become part of the same industry entity at the end
20:32:03  <nielsm> could still be a useful extra feature
20:32:05  <nielsm> ?
20:33:27  <nielsm> it could also give much more randomisation of industry layouts if the game is allowed to place several buildings randomly around an area
20:34:32  <andythenorth> might work
20:34:43  <andythenorth> I think that can already be approximated with the layouts
20:34:52  <andythenorth> provide enough layouts, similar result
20:37:39  <nielsm> in my idea, every sub-building provides its own layouts, so with multiple sub-buildings, each which has a random layout picked, and a random position picked, you get explosive growth of possible final layouts
20:39:07  <andythenorth> yes
20:39:09  <andythenorth> I am +1 to it
20:39:23  <andythenorth> I just wonder if it's a lot of work for you that can be faked anyway already :)
20:42:08  <andythenorth> hmm
20:42:15  <andythenorth> 'pigments' cargo?
20:44:07  <nielsm> where would it be produced?
20:44:43  <nielsm> some kind of chemistry lab?
20:47:12  <andythenorth> imported
20:47:22  <andythenorth> the great solution to all FIRS problems
20:47:28  <nielsm> lol
20:53:50  <nielsm> have an additional "minerals" cargo that every mine type industry produces, and have it processed in large quantities to produce all sorts of minor products
20:54:03  <nielsm> maybe also "hifi equipment"
20:56:10  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: but how do you unify things like TiO2 (white) and C (black)?
20:56:32  <andythenorth> I added carbon black to steeltown :P
20:56:34  <andythenorth> for tyres
20:56:41  <andythenorth> but it was too niche, so I deleted it
20:57:32  <Eddi|zuHause>
20:59:48  <andythenorth> I have this in my loft somewhere
21:00:23  <andythenorth> I did have mineral sands or something, but I deleted
21:00:30  <andythenorth> or maybe that was rare earth metals
21:00:33  <Eddi|zuHause> something for V, give each pigment colour a matching wagon colour :p
21:01:00  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm not sure that TiO2 constitutes a rare earth
21:02:39  <andythenorth> so
21:02:50  <andythenorth> how do I get creosote?
21:02:53  <andythenorth> or shouldn't I?
21:06:37  <andythenorth> ha ha
21:06:53  <andythenorth> I should add 'xyz byproducts' cargo to lots of industries
21:07:12  <andythenorth> then split them in a 'xyz byproducts processor'
21:07:15  <andythenorth> then repeat
21:07:22  <andythenorth> it's like pairing transistors :P
21:07:48  <andythenorth>
21:08:04  <andythenorth> the food chain is now almost divorced from industry chain, which is nice
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21:51:27  <Wolf01> 'night
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