Log for #openttd on 24th July 2018:
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13:54:47  <Alberth> o/
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14:20:58  <planetmaker> \o
14:22:27  <Alberth> hi hi, read my pm?
14:23:17  <planetmaker> reading as we speak :)
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14:24:29  <Alberth> true multi-taskng :)
14:24:40  <Alberth> /me gives a tea
14:24:57  <planetmaker> :) *slurp*
14:25:56  <planetmaker> Alberth, do I understand correctly, that it is a separate tool, separate from nmlc currently?
14:26:30  <planetmaker> It reads very nice what you write about the capabilities :)
14:27:02  <Alberth> yep, just plain python needed, give root file, get 900+kb output :p
14:27:34  <planetmaker> I'm not sure it covers *every* macro magic I ever used in every NewGRF I ever wrote... but I wouldn't want to use *every* macro magic anyway anyhow :P But it sure should cover those cases which I use basically everytime
14:27:39  <planetmaker> if not more
14:27:50  <planetmaker> so I'm quite curious about it :)
14:28:10  <Alberth> it mostly throws dynamic features out
14:28:37  <Alberth> I guess I should move stuff to gh
14:28:49  <planetmaker> maybe :)
14:29:21  <planetmaker> moving nmlc to GH is still on my agenda, too... I don't find it easy to convert though... GH actually failed when I gave it the URL. Dunno what andy did differently than me
14:31:48  <Alberth>
14:32:55  <Alberth>  pp/bin/pp -o outfile infile
14:34:05  <Alberth>
14:34:18  <Alberth> it changes Makefile and findversion too
14:35:02  * planetmaker downloads and looks
14:35:20  <Alberth> pp does include a small git repo
14:35:29  <Alberth> 5 commits or so :p
14:35:56  <LordAro> needs more GH branch :p
14:36:37  <Alberth> git init; git br first_steps; git co first_steps
14:40:04  <Alberth> I tried converting the chips thing yesterday, it fails on a too old mercurial pacakge here
14:40:29  <planetmaker> :-O
14:41:18  <Alberth> from mercruial.scmtools import revsymbol    or so had no revsymbol
14:42:21  <Alberth> apparently they make a git clone by moving some mercurial data around at repo level rather than at commit level
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14:45:24  <nielsm> I'm looking at the ticket about a "build town houses" gui for the scenario editor
14:45:28  <nielsm> it's called "good first issue"
14:45:38  <nielsm> it's a seriously complex problem, as far as I can tell
14:45:44  <nielsm> lots of refactoring needed
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14:49:36  * planetmaker installs reports
14:49:52  <planetmaker> ... wrong reports :P ...
14:51:15  <Alberth>
14:51:21  <Alberth> in pp/pp
14:51:33  <Alberth> git doesn't list it as untracked
14:51:43  <Alberth> maybe the import is missing?
14:51:57  <planetmaker> there... is a for me
14:52:16  <Alberth> ok, git tells the truth :p
14:52:31  <Alberth> no   from pp import report  then?
14:53:20  <Alberth> nielsm: yeah, not all "good first issues" are that good first issues :p
14:54:11  <planetmaker>
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14:56:54  <Alberth> ah, wrong import line :)
14:57:52  <Alberth> move the ", report" one line down :)
15:00:04  <planetmaker> ah, it should simply go in that line, yes. It's also - correctly - in the next
15:00:29  <planetmaker> and I was also looking at the wrong line :P
15:02:45  <planetmaker> Alberth, should it delete the output when it fails?
15:03:13  <planetmaker> well, maybe not
15:03:55  <Alberth> it's debatable, can make it an option :p
15:04:12  <Alberth> it's useful for eg make
15:05:24  <Alberth> output is partial anyway, as all data is streamed, so if the chain breaks somewhere, it's not well defined what gets written
15:05:51  <Alberth> python likely does close all files nicely
15:06:45  <planetmaker> seems like. It closed the output at the point it encountered the error
15:08:31  <Alberth> hmm, maybe it does, the writer basically pulls new tokens, trigger the chain into further computations
15:09:14  <Alberth> line numbers are weird currently, they are sorted
15:09:45  <Alberth> especially if it points to the definition and the call
15:10:18  <planetmaker> The tests are only optimized for the tests via Makefile, yes? bin/pp -o test tests/tokenize_test.txt
15:10:18  <planetmaker> pp ERROR at line in "tests/tokenize_test.txt", at line 3, column 4: Found 'endmacro' keyword without matching 'define'
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15:10:57  <Alberth> tokenize is just the first step, ie add -t
15:11:16  <Alberth> it doesn't do anything semantic then
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15:16:24  <Alberth> without -o it dumps to stdout
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16:43:50  <nielsm> well... "it's doing something!"
16:52:57  <peter1138> It works, ship it!
16:56:38  <LordAro> it compiles, it works
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17:00:21  <nielsm> NewHouses drawing looks like it's going to its own whole bag of fun
17:00:35  <nielsm> since it seems to really want to know what tile it lives on
17:01:06  <planetmaker> yes, yes, houses want to know that
17:09:57  <nielsm>
17:10:03  <nielsm> slightly better...
17:10:35  <nielsm> of course also needs to handle multi tile buildings
17:18:05  <nielsm> arctic landscape might also be annoying since it really ought to select between two buildings depending on whether you build above or below snow line
17:21:45  <planetmaker> Alberth, the generated nml definitely looks more readable, especially when macros came into play which expand into HUGE lines
17:22:01  <planetmaker> as your version supports nice multi-line macros :)
17:24:03  <peter1138> < any views on adding descriptions to the saveload list? I think it's useful to deliberately cause conflicts.
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17:26:34  <andythenorth> I added 'Industrial Finishes'
17:26:37  <andythenorth> getting better
17:26:40  <Alberth> not by accident, planetmaker :)
17:27:33  <andythenorth> I need to unpick final goods cargos some more
17:27:49  <andythenorth> and decide about building materials (split, yes, no, partially?)
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17:30:59  <andythenorth> printing works should produce mail? o_O
17:31:04  <andythenorth> or I add newspapers cargo?
17:32:08  <planetmaker> printing works should produce Printen ;)
17:35:47  <Alberth> nah, it's a 3d printer, should produce VR news
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17:44:26  <Wolf01> o/
17:46:13  <Alberth> o/
17:46:49  <planetmaker> o/
17:48:57  <andythenorth> should I drop coffee cargo?
17:49:02  <andythenorth> kind of like it though :P
17:49:20  <Wolf01> No, you should add coffee, tea and biscuits
17:49:59  <andythenorth> fair
17:50:46  <andythenorth> probably should test this soon
17:51:17  <Eddi|zuHause> it's going to be horrible :p
17:51:37  <andythenorth> yes
17:53:26  <planetmaker> I like coffee, too.
17:53:31  <planetmaker> And it's too nerdy to drop it ;)
17:53:41  <planetmaker> Except maybe I like tea more :D
17:53:44  <andythenorth> that's what I thought oo
17:53:46  <andythenorth> too
17:54:09  <nielsm> tea is good, coffee makes me choke
17:54:20  <andythenorth> the number of industries in Extreme
17:54:26  <andythenorth> is a real challenge for map gen
17:54:53  <andythenorth> on 256x512 I have 1-2 of most types
17:55:06  <andythenorth> there are 59 industry types
17:55:11  <Wolf01> <nielsm> tea is good, coffee makes me choke <- me too, if I add sugar
17:55:22  * andythenorth wonders
17:55:33  <planetmaker> no sugar, no cream. Black as the night
17:55:39  <Wolf01> :D
17:55:39  <andythenorth> the number of industries to build are just constants, scaled by map size?
17:55:48  <andythenorth> Alberth: you worked on this some time ago? ^
17:55:58  <planetmaker> andythenorth, that *should* be the case, yes
17:57:06  <andythenorth> wondering if we could tune it
17:57:17  <andythenorth> so that there are two counts, one specific to town-industries
17:57:17  <planetmaker> in what respect?
17:57:31  <planetmaker> I can imagine three types basically:
17:57:38  <planetmaker> * quantity per town
17:57:42  <andythenorth> blackhole town industries are wanted disproportionately more
17:57:43  <planetmaker> * quantity per map
17:57:52  <Alberth> long "some time ago"
17:57:53  <planetmaker> * quantity per size
17:57:59  <andythenorth> yair
17:58:18  <andythenorth> if Truebrain was here, I would get slapped for specifying possible solution, not problem :D
17:58:26  <andythenorth> but TrueBrain isn't so I'm safe
17:58:40  <planetmaker> though you could combine map and size to "per size with min=1"
17:58:46  <Alberth> that's total number of industries iirc
17:59:20  <Alberth> so some "chance" thing decides the proportion of each industry
17:59:30  <andythenorth> the problem is that I'm weighting the probability of town-industries relatively high
17:59:35  <andythenorth> because lots are wanted
17:59:39  <Alberth> industry had that variable
17:59:52  <andythenorth> and then very small numbers of other types are built per map
18:00:18  <Alberth> so you set industries to "dense" or "high" or whatever it's called :p
18:00:35  <andythenorth> it's better on 'high'
18:02:21  <Eddi|zuHause> so "number of industries per map size" must also be scaled by number of industries defined?
18:03:15  <Eddi|zuHause> or maybe industry set can set a "global" property that is incorporated into the low/medium/high settings?
18:05:54  <Alberth> number of industries could be useful
18:07:09  <Alberth> just let newgrf define those numbers instead?
18:08:03  <Eddi|zuHause> not the exact numbers, but an additional scaling factor
18:10:12  <Alberth> for my curiosity, what do you gain by a scaling factor?
18:10:36  <Alberth> as opposed just the number itself?
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18:14:02  <andythenorth> abstraction?
18:14:16  <andythenorth> it's a multiplier on the ottd setting?
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18:18:03  <andythenorth> does the newgrf need to control it?
18:18:06  <andythenorth> we have the constants
18:18:26  <andythenorth> we have the average number of industries per climate in original base set
18:18:48  <andythenorth> just rescale to number of industries in newgrf?
18:22:25  <Alberth> you know the total number of industries available at one time
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18:34:48  <nielsm>
18:34:50  <nielsm> it builds!
18:34:54  * nielsm makes PR
18:34:55  <nielsm> ;)
18:34:59  <nielsm> (far far from done)
18:35:28  <andythenorth> o_O
18:36:00  <frosch123> didn't adf have a build-any-house-in-se patch?
18:36:01  <Wolf01> Nice
18:40:34  <Wolf01> Oh, I found out that libreoffice was put on the microsoft store by someone, selling it for 2 bucks but the demo version is fully usable... maybe is the same one who tried this with OTTD
18:41:37  <Wolf01>
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19:39:50  <andythenorth> so what cargo unit for newspapers?
19:42:10  <nielsm> reams?
19:48:17  <nielsm> hmm, not *quite* right...
19:50:09  <LordAro> i see no issues with this
19:51:12  <andythenorth> and what accepts newspaper?
19:51:18  <andythenorth> I need more town industries anyway
19:51:21  <andythenorth> hotel?
19:51:30  <andythenorth> need more types of shops I think
19:51:37  <nielsm> convenience store?
19:51:46  <nielsm> and hotels too
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19:57:56  <nielsm> better.
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20:02:07  <LordAro> *i guess*
20:02:58  <nielsm>
20:03:30  <LordAro> perfect
20:03:42  <andythenorth> sprite x-y is fun eh?
20:04:16  <nielsm> yeah :(
20:04:36  <andythenorth> so where does yeast come from?
20:04:37  <andythenorth>
20:04:51  <andythenorth> salt is there, and I'm assuming spices are imported
20:05:12  <nielsm> I think large scale brewery ops make their own
20:05:19  <nielsm> including baking yeast while they're at it
20:05:23  <andythenorth> ok
20:05:38  <andythenorth> is sugar an intermediate cargo, or a food additive?
20:06:00  <andythenorth> I would like to ruthlessly remove any redundant cargos
20:12:34  <Wolf01> Where are slag and cement?
20:12:41  <andythenorth> well
20:12:46  <andythenorth> these are good questions
20:12:52  <andythenorth> also tar/bitumen
20:12:56  <andythenorth> creosote
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20:13:07  <andythenorth> copper
20:13:10  <andythenorth> toys
20:13:17  <andythenorth> domestic appliances
20:13:30  <andythenorth> that would be 55 cargos
20:13:42  <Wolf01> 9 more and you top it
20:14:15  <andythenorth> why does the bakery accept sugar and flour, but not fats / dairy?
20:14:27  <andythenorth> cakes without butter are lame
20:14:36  <Wolf01> Yeah
20:14:39  <Wolf01> And EGGS!
20:14:51  <Wolf01> Chicken farms!
20:15:04  <andythenorth> also glass is missing
20:15:10  <andythenorth> and the recycling chain is stupid
20:15:12  <Wolf01> Yup
20:15:30  <andythenorth> I think the heavy industry is quite good though
20:17:54  <nielsm> only an alignment issue with the spider and the fountain left...
20:18:32  <andythenorth> o_O
20:19:06  <frosch123> nielsm:
20:19:42  <frosch123> or are you doing something different?
20:20:43  <Eddi|zuHause> "the spider and the fountain" sounds like a crime or secret agent novel
20:20:49  <nielsm> no, I just went with having no patch
20:23:12  <andythenorth> copper + polymers -> wire?
20:23:44  <nielsm> copper + cloth -> trendy wire
20:24:06  <andythenorth> nylon
20:24:15  <andythenorth> textiles?
20:24:23  <andythenorth> textiles exists :P
20:27:49  <andythenorth> my favourite tech product in last 5 years :P
20:28:36  <Wolf01> andythenorth: ask for 64k cargos and start from chemical elements
20:28:38  <Eddi|zuHause> i do belive nylon counts as a polymer
20:28:49  <andythenorth> yes
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20:28:54  <andythenorth> also that cable is 10 foot
20:29:07  <andythenorth> it's lifechanging
20:29:21  <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: that fails by the time you arrive at enzymes
20:29:41  <LordAro> andythenorth: seems excessive
20:29:55  <andythenorth> it's freedom
20:30:39  <Eddi|zuHause> @calc 10*12*2.54
20:30:40  <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 304.8
20:30:51  <Eddi|zuHause> 3m?
20:30:59  <andythenorth> 3.3
20:31:02  <Eddi|zuHause> i thought usb cables go up to 5m
20:31:20  <andythenorth> I haven't seen a USB-C power delivery one that does that
20:31:23  <andythenorth> but now I have to look
20:32:12  <LordAro> wouldn't surprise me if it was 3m for power delivery 5m for data
20:32:31  <Eddi|zuHause> at work i had to order a special usb A extension cable with 7.5m
20:33:09  <Eddi|zuHause> actually, no, it was 15m
20:33:17  <andythenorth> anyway it makes a lot more practical difference than the accompanying CPU upgrade
20:33:18  <Eddi|zuHause> containing 2 repeaters
20:33:52  <Eddi|zuHause> and the possibility to chain 3 times, if you added more power sources
20:34:05  <andythenorth> was this some remote sensing?
20:34:08  <andythenorth> or a remote machine?
20:34:48  <Eddi|zuHause> it was for a chemical measurement device that had to be in a shielded place tho you could handle dangerous substances
20:35:04  <Eddi|zuHause> s/tho/so/
20:37:45  <Eddi|zuHause> was something like this, i believe
20:37:50  <andythenorth> hmm
20:37:57  <andythenorth> scrap the textile mill, and cotton?
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22:21:47  <alpha_one_x86> Hi, I don't understand why my server is not show here:
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22:29:36  <Eddi|zuHause> usually because of your firewall/router configuration
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22:45:43  <alpha_one_x86> have you more info?
22:45:52  <LordAro> @ports
22:45:52  <DorpsGek> LordAro: OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication, UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advertise) communication (outbound), and TCP port 3978 for content service, a.k.a. BaNaNaS (outbound)
22:47:44  <alpha_one_x86> I have change the default port
22:47:59  <alpha_one_x86> for  server <-> client communication, checked with telnet for tcp
22:57:56  <alpha_one_x86> include with all open, not work
22:59:20  <alpha_one_x86>
23:07:44  <LordAro> alpha_one_x86: it's also possible your ISP is blocking things
23:07:50  <FLHerne> alpha_one_x86: I don't think that'll work, you can't configure the port used to contact the masterserver
23:08:06  <LordAro> ah, didn't actually check the pastebin
23:09:50  <FLHerne> alpha_one_x86: You can have your own server listen on whatever port you prefer, but the master only listens on 3978
23:10:19  <FLHerne> So you must have that open outbound
23:10:58  <FLHerne> (in order for server-advertising to work; clients can still connect manually)
23:16:19  <peter1138> That's not configurable anyway.
23:16:37  <peter1138> I doubt they have edited the code and recompiled.
23:16:49  <Eddi|zuHause> what cruel person blocks outbound ports anyway?
23:17:51  <LordAro> Eddi|zuHause: ha.
23:17:58  <FLHerne> Eddi|zuHause: I've seen various 'open' portals that only allow port 80 and maybe email ones
23:18:13  <peter1138> Well...
23:18:26  <peter1138> Any locked down network...
23:18:27  <FLHerne> The /real/ question is who blocks 3978 outbound but not other random high-numbered ports...
23:18:28  <Eddi|zuHause> see, cruel persons...
23:19:52  <peter1138> Probably not blocked, likely is incoming udp is not forwarded.
23:21:41  <alpha_one_x86>
23:22:19  <alpha_one_x86> the real question is: how test the outbound 3978 port?
23:24:42  <Eddi|zuHause> it's actually rather unlikely the outbound is the problem
23:24:50  <Eddi|zuHause> inless you're in some shitty hotel place
23:25:01  <Eddi|zuHause> *unless
23:31:05  <alpha_one_x86> I'm preparing VPS image for a local datacenter in Bolivia, IPv6 have full connectivity, and each VPS have an public IPv6
23:32:12  <Eddi|zuHause> overzealous corporate firewall might be another source of outbound problem
23:35:48  <alpha_one_x86> how test it? If I can test it, I can fix it
23:36:15  <alpha_one_x86> The IPv6 support is full and without firewall
23:36:22  <Eddi|zuHause> with udp packages? only if you have a destination where you can check it actually arrived
23:36:27  <alpha_one_x86> (out of the VPS)
23:36:58  <alpha_one_x86> it's the problem, no udp confirmation is returned?
23:37:10  <Eddi|zuHause> there is no confirmation whether an UDP package arrived
23:37:22  <Eddi|zuHause> it is fire-and-forget
23:38:33  <Eddi|zuHause> that's the advantage of UDP, it does not have this connection overhead that TCP has where each side must remember the connection state until both confirmed they have it established
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