Log for #openttd on 7th August 2018:
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05:29:48  <dihedral> good morning
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06:06:45  <LordAro> oh no, where?
06:08:15  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm definitely in the wrong time zone
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06:26:41  <Hobby> <+SP9002_@efnet> so, he wants the win. so we're just gonna get lunch or something, then hes gonna push me to the ground and tap my ass with his foot so he can claim he "kicked my ass" tbh im going along with it becase I dont wanna lose any teeth
06:26:45  <Hobby> With our IRC ad service you can reach a global audience of entrepreneurs and fentanyl addicts with extraordinary engagement rates!
06:26:48  <Hobby> I thought you guys might be interested in this blog by freenode staff member Bryan 'kloeri' Ostergaard
06:26:51  <Hobby> or maybe this blog by freenode staff member Matthew 'mst' Trout
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06:43:43  <andythenorth> new OS
06:43:52  <andythenorth> compile fails
06:45:16  <andythenorth> I've upgraded all deps and dev tools, afaict
06:45:34  <andythenorth> Apple LLVM version 9.1.0 (clang-902.0.39.2)
06:48:00  <peter1138> ^ LordAro
06:50:21  <andythenorth> I can open a ticket if it's not just EBKAC here
06:52:53  <peter1138> No, someone else had it but I thought it was something already resolved. Oops.
06:53:08  <peter1138> So, erm, yeah, I mean yes.
06:53:22  <peter1138> They also only mentioned it here.
06:54:13  <LordAro> how interesting
06:54:24  <LordAro> wonder what actual version of clang that is
06:54:35  <LordAro> given clang 9 is not a thing
06:55:16  <planetmaker> o/
06:55:40  <LordAro> relatedly i was just reading
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06:58:09  <peter1138> Compiler bug?
06:59:47  <LordAro> i'm not suggesting andy's error is a compiler bug :p
07:00:09  <LordAro> mm, expected expression..
07:00:29  <LordAro> i think that's the configure script not picking up clang correctly
07:02:01  <LordAro> but that was supposed to have been fixed...
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07:08:01  <andythenorth> I'll open a ticket later
07:08:03  <andythenorth> BBL
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07:28:53  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] bentley commented on issue #6842: Heap overflow leading to crash
08:09:33  <peter1138> So assuming it hits the clang section it shows up as version 91
08:10:00  <peter1138> So it'll get all the flags it previously got.
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08:57:20  <Wolf01> o/
09:00:21  <peter1138> Client limit lol
09:00:58  <Wolf01> Wut?
09:01:22  <peter1138> All the [m] clients left due to "Quit: Client limit exceeded: 4096"
09:01:32  <Wolf01> Ahaha
09:05:37  <Wolf01> I should try to reproduce the russian grf bug
09:14:39  <Wolf01> Ok, no bug, maybe I compiled in a wrong way my source
09:17:31  <Wolf01> And it could be, as it isn't loading any grf at all
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10:58:29  <k-man> when you are building passenger trains for towns and cities, how long do you make them?
10:58:38  <k-man> is there a best practice?
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11:00:07  <planetmaker> k-man, choose a station size. Use that everywhere. Make trains fit that station, and under no circumstances longer
11:01:22  <k-man> planetmaker, ok, i went for 5 for freight, but that seems too big for passenger
11:01:30  <k-man> i was thinking to do small trains for passenger trains
11:01:35  <k-man> like 2 tiles
11:03:49  <peter1138> Passengers will explode, you'll regret that.
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11:05:02  <k-man> explode?
11:05:10  <k-man> you mean - long is good in the long term
11:05:30  <k-man> as in passenger numbers will explode, not passengers themselves? :)
11:05:33  <Wolf01> No, literally explode, blow up your stations
11:05:54  <peter1138> Cargo Type: Creepers
11:07:27  <SpComb> hiss
11:08:28  <SpComb> k-man: 5 tiles is reasonable... early trains with weaker engines and smaller towns will be shorter, but late-game you'll wish you had even longer stations
11:09:15  <SpComb> 2 tiles is way to short, you'll end up rebuilding all your stations pretty soon
11:09:26  <SpComb> even without passenger destinations... those increase passenger numbers as well
11:11:43  <k-man> ok, thanks for the tips guys
11:12:06  <peter1138> Really early trains you can get away with 2 tiles, but yeah, don't make the platforms that short.
11:12:27  <SpComb> if you want to save money then build two-tile stations with three extra straight track pieces
11:12:40  <SpComb> but not worth the bother tbh
11:12:59  <peter1138> And faff about with removing crossings.
11:13:00  <Wolf01> I go with 5 tiles for everything, in late game I upgrade industrial ones to 7-9 tiles
11:13:15  <Wolf01> Late game is about 15 minutes after start
11:13:21  <SpComb> okay, mid game :)
11:13:35  <SpComb> "late-game" is probably once you're struggling with 5 tiles
11:13:45  <k-man> i already have an income so no need to save money just yet
11:13:46  <Wolf01> No, then I'll stop playing, it's late game for me
11:14:12  <SpComb> you just make the track loop around a little so you can fit in a 10-tile station ;)
11:14:54  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think we have bendy stations yet
11:15:14  <peter1138> I had a patch for it.
11:15:18  <Wolf01> I do, but I keep them for myself
11:15:24  <Wolf01> Eh, you too?
11:15:55  <peter1138>
11:15:57  <peter1138> Such old.
11:16:00  <Eddi|zuHause> that was like 12 yaars ago?
11:16:15  <peter1138> Something like that, yeah.
11:16:25  <Wolf01> I have one which allow to build stations on slopes
11:16:42  <Eddi|zuHause> it's now older than i was when i started playing TTO
11:17:40  <andythenorth> newgrf support :P
11:18:03  <andythenorth> the partial-loading thing in JGR is interesting
11:19:20  <k-man> does a station service a whole town as long as its area of influence is on any part of the town?
11:19:23  <SpComb> just rotate the sprites in the game engine
11:19:42  <peter1138> No, they service their catchment area.
11:19:52  <SpComb> every house is separate
11:20:06  <SpComb> plus you'll want a couple bus stops in each town to trigger town growth
11:20:18  <SpComb> each town needs like 3-4 pax stations or something
11:20:26  <SpComb> iirc!
11:21:13  <Eddi|zuHause> k-man: depends what you mean by "service"
11:22:36  <Eddi|zuHause> k-man: each station has an area where cargo comes from, and area where cargo gets delivered to (they are not quite the same if you have a non-rectangular station) and a town where it gets its name from
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11:24:14  <Eddi|zuHause> the area where cargo comes from decides how much cargo you get to transport, the area where cargo goes to decides what will be accepted, and the town name not only decides the station name, but also things like "does this town receive food/water"
11:24:52  <Wolf01> What decides which roadtype the town should build?
11:25:22  <k-man> so if i build a station right at the edge of a large city, will it service the whole population? or i need stations around the city/
11:25:29  <k-man> as in will it be able to pickup
11:25:40  <SpComb> you need stations around the city
11:30:26  <k-man> thanks
11:34:20  <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: you mean what the code currently does, or what it was meant to do, or what it should do?
11:34:35  <Wolf01> What it should do
11:35:11  <Wolf01> Currently is the roadtype used in the town center tile
11:35:36  <Wolf01> But Where to store a different one?
11:35:50  <Eddi|zuHause> it should filter the available roads by "compatible with ROAD" and a "the town should use that for growing" flag (which is separate from "houses can grow here", and of those pick the fastest
11:36:13  <Eddi|zuHause> towns should have plenty of off-map storage
11:36:16  <Wolf01> Not sure about the fastest, in towns :P
11:36:54  <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: well, the really fast ones (highway etc.) would not get the town flag
11:37:59  <Eddi|zuHause> but if, say it had available dirt (15km/h), cobble (30km/h) and asphalt (50km/h), then it should choose asphalt
11:39:18  <Eddi|zuHause> it should also avoid "asphalt with catenary", again by the town flag
11:39:49  <Wolf01> Even that defeat the point of making you pay for upgrading a town road to the one which fits your needs (going faster)
11:40:13  <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: the town would upgrade its roads very slowly
11:40:25  <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: but it would use the best one for new roads
11:41:39  <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: no town would still build dirt roads, because that was the type available 150 years ago
11:41:48  <Wolf01> Yeah
11:43:48  <k-man> do you make passenger trains go point to point or do a run along a whole bunch of stations?
11:44:17  <Eddi|zuHause> i usually make a bus or tram network in the city, collecting everyone at a central train station (with cargodist)
11:44:26  <Eddi|zuHause> then i have local and long distance trains from there
11:46:05  <k-man> oh
11:46:07  <k-man> cargodist
11:46:10  <k-man> i'm yet to explore that
11:46:52  <Eddi|zuHause> k-man: cargodist is like "whatever your train length was, it won't be enough"
11:48:04  <peter1138> I'm sure it needs some love but I don't know what.
11:54:37  <andythenorth> bigger trains
11:55:18  <peter1138> Was there some error with production that makes it quadratic or something?
11:55:42  <andythenorth> cdist has the interesting side effect of rewarding simple point-point networks
11:57:29  <SpComb> wasn't there some actual town growth bug with a patch in the dev forums?
11:58:05  <SpComb> but the cdist-related pax patches were just hacks to reduce pax numbers iirc
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12:00:27  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, there was a quadratic production bug. it had nothing to do with cdist, though. it was more newgrf-related
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12:01:05  <Eddi|zuHause> as in, if a newgrf doubles the population of a house, its production quadruples
12:03:12  <andythenorth> oh someone maybe ticketed that
12:03:15  * andythenorth looks
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12:09:23  <andythenorth> can't find the ticket
12:09:48  <Eddi|zuHause> it was probably a forum thread
12:11:36  <Eddi|zuHause> i think i need food...
12:20:49  <Wolf01> 30 minutes to C:S
12:32:19  <Eddi|zuHause> your download speeds are better than internet explorer :p
12:32:33  <Wolf01> I started yesterday evening
12:33:04  <Eddi|zuHause> yes.
12:33:14  <SpComb> cities skylines?
12:33:19  <Wolf01> Yes
12:33:24  <SpComb> congratz
12:34:09  <Eddi|zuHause> so, there was a surviving mars update announcement, but no update, and a stellaris update with no update announcement
12:35:07  <Wolf01> Yeah, also an Astroneer update with no announcement (but there was one in their forum)
12:35:27  <Eddi|zuHause> uhm, i have an astroneer announcement in my feed
12:35:37  <Wolf01> I should really play Astroneer, it's better than NMS right now, and still misses alien fauna
12:35:55  <Wolf01> There wasn't one yesterday
12:36:12  <Eddi|zuHause> i heard NMS got an update? and everyone was looking positively into the future?
12:36:32  <Eddi|zuHause> as in "this is the game how it should have been a year ago"
12:37:00  <Wolf01> I'm still waiting to get it for 15€
12:37:15  <Eddi|zuHause> it's probably still not a game for  me
12:38:01  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm also really unsure about getting astroneer
12:38:12  <Wolf01> It's funny
12:38:39  <Wolf01> Until you get everything and stop doing everything
12:38:53  <Wolf01> But now there's more to explore, so...
12:39:11  <Eddi|zuHause> it would help if it wasn't windows only
12:39:51  <Eddi|zuHause> i configured the steam shop to only show me linux games now
12:42:00  <SpComb> I'm still halfway through my second factorio game
12:42:53  <SpComb> now at high tech with maybe 2 science packs (each) /s total, haven't even started with the first rocket yet
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13:11:53  <Alberth> o/
13:11:58  <Wolf01> o/
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14:07:02  <Wolf01> Rekt on 2 C:S games :(
14:07:14  <SpComb> bankrupt?
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14:07:26  <Wolf01> Yes, in 5 minutes
14:07:36  <SpComb> you're doing it wrong
14:07:43  <SpComb> don't build so much infra up front
14:07:48  <Eddi|zuHause> need to restrain yourself
14:08:09  <SpComb> yeah, start small
14:08:13  <Eddi|zuHause> plop a few roads, a few houses, industries and commercials (preferably inbetween the other two)
14:08:35  <Eddi|zuHause> then wait before you plop down police or schools
14:08:53  <SpComb> mistake I made in my first game was to enact some ordnances that turned out to be surprisingly expensive, took me a long time to notice that they were draining like half of my budget
14:08:58  <SpComb> the game got easier after that :)
14:09:14  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm pretty sure i said that yesterday :p
14:09:25  <Wolf01> I need to understand how much things I need to start
14:09:52  <Wolf01> *many
14:10:00  <SpComb> study the infra layout of american suburbs, and then avoid building anything like that
14:10:09  <Eddi|zuHause> :p
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14:30:44  <Wolf01> Ok, +1000$/w seem a good start, if only I will keep up with power, water, sewage, waste, noise, health, crime
14:31:40  <nielsm> or use the included infinite money mod and play it as a bosai garden
14:32:09  <Eddi|zuHause> infinite money never seemed like something that would interest me in this kind of game
14:32:19  <Wolf01> Oh, is there a sandbox mode?
14:32:27  <Eddi|zuHause> it's fairly easy to get money
14:32:59  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, there is in the mods section (builtin mod)
14:33:06  <nielsm> it's just the initial hump that's hard
14:33:40  <Wolf01> I'm always able to play well for 1-2 hours (when I understand how to start) and then things suddenly explode
14:34:19  <Eddi|zuHause> yes. but i don't see how infinite money is a solution to that :p
14:38:03  <SpComb> I wouldn't play with infinite money either
14:38:15  <SpComb> just like I wouldn't play with an absolutely empty flat map either
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15:13:11  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm currently wondering whether i want
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15:32:22  <Happpy> Hi not shor if this the right irc channel   for this  but ther a problem whive the a red thin on the website  or it dont load up
15:33:07  <LordAro> expired cert, planetmaker ^ ?
15:33:24  <Happpy> Yeah
15:33:58  <Eddi|zuHause> ^Spike^?
15:36:22  <Happpy> The problem  is all openttdcoop  websit  i think
15:36:37  <LordAro> it will be, yes
15:37:41  <Happpy> Ok www.openttdcoop .org works  so it all Wikipedia  ones ar down
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18:18:04  <andythenorth> o/
18:18:30  <LordAro> andythenorth: giv issue
18:19:00  <andythenorth> I looked if it overlapped any existing issues
18:19:02  <andythenorth> couldn't see any
18:19:29  <LordAro> andythenorth: i'm most interested in the output of configure
18:20:25  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth opened issue #6880: Compile fails on src/economy.cpp:702:20: error: expected expression
18:20:41  <andythenorth> LordAro: do you want the full paste of ./configure?
18:20:51  <LordAro> probably just the last bit, where it says which flags it's using
18:21:38  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth commented on issue #6880: Compile fails on src/economy.cpp:702:20: error: expected expression
18:22:12  <andythenorth> let me know if you need more
18:23:48  <LordAro> andythenorth: is the output of `clang -v` any different?
18:24:10  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth commented on issue #6880: Compile fails on src/economy.cpp:702:20: error: expected expression
18:24:28  <andythenorth> seems not
18:24:34  <LordAro> yeah, ok
18:24:39  <LordAro> well certainly the version detection is broken
18:24:47  <LordAro> it thinks you're on clang 91
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18:27:14  <peter1138> That's the version number it gives, so yes.
18:29:04  <LordAro> yeah, because Apple are morons
18:29:30  <LordAro> but the core of the issue is that it's not setting -std=c++11
18:29:35  <LordAro> which is probably should
18:29:38  <LordAro> it*
18:30:14  <LordAro> or maybe it isn't getting 91..
18:30:40  <peter1138> 91 is -ge 33
18:30:41  <peter1138> so...
18:31:03  <LordAro> yeah, and the configure output implies that it's hit the -lt 30 branch
18:31:42  <LordAro> andythenorth: can you run `clang -v | head -n1 | sed s@[^0-9]@@g | cut -c 1-2` ?
18:32:02  <peter1138> I wonder if it's doing it do stderr instead of stdout?
18:32:08  <peter1138> s/do/to/
18:32:17  <LordAro> that would be even more surprising
18:32:36  <Eddi|zuHause> is there a "verbose" mode where it outputs the commands it actually runs?
18:32:53  <LordAro> yes, but not for this command
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18:34:13  <Eddi|zuHause> "head -n1" <-- maybe the version is not in the first line anymore?
18:34:40  <LordAro> it is according to the output andy posted :p
18:34:51  <LordAro> at least, i think so, given newlines appear to be missing
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18:46:36  <andythenorth> apple are definitely not competent enough to be doing some of the things they are doing
18:46:48  <andythenorth> things that come to mind include writing compilers, designing chips
18:46:50  <andythenorth> and making laptops
18:47:29  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth commented on issue #6880: Compile fails on src/economy.cpp:702:20: error: expected expression
18:47:36  <andythenorth> this bot is handy
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18:48:28  <LordAro> andythenorth: no output?
18:49:06  <andythenorth> LordAro: same as for clang -v
18:49:08  <LordAro> your pastes keep losing the newlines :p
18:49:29  <andythenorth> so they do
18:49:33  <andythenorth> that's interesting of github
18:50:04  <LordAro> andythenorth: just for fun, what happens if you turn the first pipe into a "|&" ?
18:50:35  <andythenorth> hangon fixing newlines
18:50:45  <andythenorth> I assumed that putting them in code blocks would preserve formatting
18:50:48  <andythenorth> wrong assumption
18:51:30  <andythenorth> clang -v |& head -n1 | sed s@[^0-9]@@g | cut -c 1-2
18:51:30  <andythenorth> ?
18:51:34  <LordAro> ``` foo ``` blocks or ` foo` blocks?
18:51:37  <LordAro> yeag
18:51:39  <LordAro> yrah*
18:51:43  <LordAro> typos*
18:51:46  <andythenorth> -bash: syntax error near unexpected token `&'
18:51:55  <LordAro> interesting
18:52:07  <LordAro> bash must be ancient
18:52:17  <LordAro> do 2>&1 | instead
18:52:20  <andythenorth> GNU bash, version 3.2.57(1)-release (x86_64-apple-darwin17)
18:52:40  <LordAro> yup.
18:52:50  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth commented on issue #6880: Compile fails on src/economy.cpp:702:20: error: expected expression
18:53:34  <LordAro> peter1138: i am even more surprised.
18:54:14  <LordAro> TrueBrain: how's that cmake build system coming? :p
18:54:29  <andythenorth> I suspected upgrading laptop would be painful :D
18:56:52  <michi_cc> LordAro: That's the side effect of silently going C++11, it makes things interesting. Especially if you try any of the compilers listed in the readme.
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18:58:05  <LordAro> michi_cc: heh, true
18:58:27  <LordAro> wait, there's already a 2>&1 in config.lib
18:58:32  <LordAro> what
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19:18:14  <andythenorth> so shall I install GCC? o_O
19:19:21  <andythenorth> oh apparently I can't
19:22:12  <Eddi|zuHause> it's probably easier to hack configure to hardcode your compiler
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19:23:41  <andythenorth> plausible
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19:47:22  <TrueBrain> LordAro: have you checked me trello lately? :)
19:48:14  <TrueBrain> feel free to help with any point on there, so I sooner have time for "fun stuff" ;)
19:51:43  <LordAro> TrueBrain: i don't see it on there :p
19:52:20  <TrueBrain> exactly!
19:52:29  <LordAro> ha
19:52:35  <LordAro> did you put your progress anywhere public?
19:52:51  <TrueBrain> no clue
19:53:01  <TrueBrain> I removed all code-related entries from my trello, as it was depressing me
19:53:12  <LordAro> hah
19:53:14  <TrueBrain> I never get to do the fun stuff :(
19:54:18  <LordAro> andythenorth: can you run `bash -x configure`? (probably best to put output into a gist or something rather than the issue itself)
19:55:18  <TrueBrain> there, I added it to me trello! :D
19:55:43  <LordAro> :)
19:56:09  <TrueBrain> and the code is most likely in a branch on my github, if I would be to guess
19:56:12  <TrueBrain> but didnt check
19:56:38  <LordAro> so you did
19:58:35  <andythenorth> oof this is a lot of output
19:58:40  <andythenorth> can I pipe it to a file somehow?
19:58:50  <andythenorth> also it reveals paths on my system :|
19:59:04  <TrueBrain> tr [a-z] z
19:59:09  <TrueBrain> anonymouses it
20:04:52  <LordAro> `... > output.txt 2>&1`
20:05:02  <LordAro> TrueBrain: that'll do a bit more than anonymise it :p
20:05:17  <LordAro> andythenorth: is your system particularly different to any other mac system?
20:05:17  <TrueBrain> indeed, it still leaks the length of stuff
20:05:32  <andythenorth> LordAro: no
20:05:35  <andythenorth> it's vanilla
20:05:45  <LordAro> so what are you concerned about? :p
20:05:46  <TrueBrain> I wanted chocolate :(
20:06:00  <andythenorth> LordAro: reveals my login name amongst others
20:06:06  <andythenorth> that's 50% of creds
20:06:18  <andythenorth> I'll find & replace
20:06:35  <TrueBrain> I wouldnt want others to find out my usename is 'supergirl' too!
20:06:37  <LordAro> sed 's/andythenorth/notandythenothing/g'
20:06:53  <LordAro> i'm going to pretend "nothing" was intentional
20:08:44  <andythenorth> LordAro:
20:09:00  <LordAro> ta
20:09:09  <andythenorth> np
20:09:53  <LordAro> oooh
20:10:07  <LordAro> it actually runs gcc -v | head -n1....
20:10:20  <LordAro> what's the first line of that?
20:13:06  <andythenorth> brb
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20:17:56  <andythenorth> gcc -v | head -n1
20:17:56  <andythenorth> Configured with: --prefix=/Applications/ --with-gxx-include-dir=/Applications/
20:21:16  <LordAro> well that's where the 10 comes from
20:21:21  <LordAro> much lol
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22:29:40  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] JGRennison opened pull request #6881: Fix: Script/AI construction of rail track and waypoints
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