Log for #openttd on 19th August 2018:
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05:18:29  <Endymion> Hi, two questions: 1. Is there a way to see the Station Ratings in-game?  2. Is it possible to get the calculation of producers/consumers easily visible to the user?
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06:18:59  <Eddi|zuHause> yes. no.
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07:02:56  <Alberth> moin
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08:21:59  <Wolf01> o/
08:27:49  <Alberth> o/
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11:45:12  <Samu> it's difficult to make decent mail services
11:45:32  <Samu> with trucks
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11:51:13  <andythenorth_> o/
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11:58:00  <Samu> Wormnest: any tricks to keep mail services profitable?
12:01:06  <andythenorth_> so
12:01:51  <andythenorth_> FIRS Extreme for each climate? o_O
12:10:46  <Eddi|zuHause> no
12:14:38  <andythenorth_> because...?
12:15:25  <Alberth> o/
12:16:36  <Alberth> wouldn't call it "extreme", it's a bad name to indicate the topic of an economy
12:17:01  <Alberth> likely that holds for "basic" too, but fair enough
12:17:10  <andythenorth_> opposite of “Basic”?
12:17:18  <andythenorth_> oh you said that :)
12:17:57  <Alberth> "steeltown" gives a much better idea of what to expect,imho
12:19:39  <Alberth> also, you're missing toyland climate :)
12:20:11  <andythenorth_> oof
12:20:51  <Alberth> haven't played in quite some time
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12:23:24  <andythenorth_> Delete Extreme? o_O
12:24:17  <Alberth> why would you want to do that?
12:24:29  <Alberth> you spend a few weeks developing it :)
12:24:42  <andythenorth_> i kind of wonder what it’s for :)
12:24:54  <andythenorth_> It was never designed
12:25:02  <Alberth> the name is not so good, but as it's one of a kind, it's "well defined"
12:25:59  <Alberth> what do you mean, not designed, you changed it for a couple of weeks at least
12:26:03  <andythenorth_> “Max Temperate”
12:26:48  <Alberth> I'd consider a lucky accident, and leave it at that :)
12:27:45  <andythenorth_> :p
12:27:47  <Alberth> some players like to play it, well, why not
12:28:16  <Alberth> not like RL industry chains are carefully designed at global level :p
12:29:21  <andythenorth_> RL industry is much more insane than I ever anticipated
12:29:51  <andythenorth_> all the unexpected inputs and by-products
12:30:06  <andythenorth_> and regional variations
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12:31:08  <Wormnest> Samu: I have never specifically targeted mail
12:33:30  <Alberth> all local optimization :)
12:36:22  <andythenorth_> this started because I wondered about bananas cargo :p
12:37:34  <Samu> oh ok
12:39:09  <Alberth> sounds more like a "in a hot country" cargo
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12:40:44  <Eddi|zuHause> grr, just wanted to type a reply
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12:42:31  <andythenorth_> probs
12:42:46  <Eddi|zuHause> <andythenorth_> because...? <-- before you even attempt that, you need to get some actual player feedback, instead of just iterating about how you think it's going to play out
12:44:40  <andythenorth_> well. good feedback is valuable
12:44:59  <andythenorth_> but feedback isn’t design
12:45:15  <Eddi|zuHause> game design is hard, there are many player types, each one wants different things out of a game
12:45:58  <Eddi|zuHause> some of those things are mutually exclusive and irreconcilable
12:46:16  <andythenorth_> I’ve sinplified it by only designing for a handful of players :)
12:46:41  <andythenorth_> simplified *
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13:00:08  <Samu> i removed the station spreading feature of LuDiAI
13:00:42  <Samu> well, not exactly removed, I made a setting that disables it
13:01:42  <Samu> now I'm pondering if I default it to disabled, or leave it enabled
13:03:57  <Samu> your thoughts on the matter?
13:09:08  <Alberth> what does it actually do?
13:09:25  <Alberth> (if enabled) :)
13:09:43  <Samu> distant join stations
13:09:58  <Samu> with his busses and mail trucks
13:12:16  <Samu>
13:12:23  <Samu> like that
13:13:01  <Samu> there are station tiles nonot adjacent to each other but still belong to the same station
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13:15:05  <Alberth> i'd leave it disabled by default, as that's what users expect
13:16:10  <Alberth> ie you're more likely to upset users by constructing disjoint stations than you are by not constructing them :)
13:16:49  <Alberth> you could add a section with suggestions to change for more competitive play in the readme file
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13:17:49  <Samu> when disabled, it doesn't expand them stations :(
13:17:53  <Samu> even adjacently
13:18:00  <Samu> perhaps it could
13:23:37  <Alberth> you don't need disjoint stations for extending a station, do you?
13:24:48  <Alberth> if you want to expand a station can't you check first if a simple building of an additional platform is possible?
13:26:40  <Samu> ludiai can't, but i could try implement it
13:27:21  <Samu> ludiai doesn't build a platform if it finds any other within 2 tiles
13:27:35  <Samu> it leaves a space
13:29:45  <Samu> local squareSize = 5;
13:31:45  <Samu> hmm this part of the code was already edited by me for solving the cpu evaluator problem
13:31:59  <Samu> and now I'm editing it even more :(
13:35:15  <Samu> this part was edited in,
13:36:05  <Samu> i split it out of the evaluator function and made it basically two functions, this is one of them, the other is the evaluator function which became much smaller, maybe i should post it too
13:36:43  <Samu> ook, here it is
13:38:51  <Samu> in the case of expanding a station, the stationId exists and is not null
13:40:03  <Samu> whenever it returns true
13:40:19  <Samu> it means not to use that tile to place a platform
13:41:59  <Samu> if it returns false, it means there are no nearby stations and the tile can be evaluated with the valuatetruckstop function
13:47:21  <Alberth> code seems fine to me
13:47:47  <Alberth> not sure what it does exactly, but you likely know :)
13:52:00  <Samu> this is what makes it not place a platform next to the other
13:52:10  <Samu> but only a few tiles away
14:07:10  <Alberth> looks that way, but clearly you designed it as such for some reason
14:07:43  <Alberth> was that reason incorrect, or did you change your mind?
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14:45:50  <Samu> this was already part of ludiai, i only split the function in two
14:56:35  <Samu> i give up
14:57:18  <Samu> no expanding of stations even if adjacent
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14:58:16  <Samu> now I'm onto another issue, about adjacent road tiles to the station tile
14:58:44  <Samu> a drivethrough station issue
15:02:37  <Samu>
15:03:04  <Samu> there are 4 adjacent tiles it considers
15:03:30  <Samu> the next and previous one in X and Y axis
15:04:06  <Samu> since it didn't find a road on one of the tiles, it reduced the number of adjacent tiles to 3
15:05:40  <Samu> now he's trying to get the nextAdjTile and see if it's the opposite of the adjTile so that it can build a drivethrough in the correct Axis
15:06:27  <Samu> essentially, it wants to find the tiles 58416 for the adjTile and 58418 for the nextAdjTile
15:06:37  <Samu> but it's failing to do so :(
15:07:53  <Samu> when it builds the drivethrough station, the function requires the tile where the station is placed and the next in front of it to get the correct orientation
15:09:24  <Samu> hmm complicated
15:10:43  <Samu> adjTile cannot be tile 58673 and that's what the code has used :(
15:10:50  <Samu> why
15:12:24  <Samu> AIRoad.BuildRoad(adjTile, nextAdjTile
15:12:42  <Samu> adjTile is wrong here
15:41:08  <Wolf01> Eddi|zuHause: mods or dlcs?
15:42:52  <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: mostly mods, as far as i can see
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16:07:28  <Samu>
16:07:41  <Samu> could this code be improved?
16:08:13  <Samu> especially the part of using 2 AITileLists
16:08:20  <Samu> being copies
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16:09:38  <Samu> i tried to use the same list, but adjRoadTiles.HasNext() wasn't working properly
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16:30:54  <Wolf01> Eddi|zuHause: which mods do you suggest? I think I'll give a try to move it, traffic manager and I should find some to place lines/road objects
16:31:41  <Eddi|zuHause> there's a mod for oneway rail
16:31:54  <Eddi|zuHause> and some train station stuff
16:32:09  <Eddi|zuHause> last thing i tried was metro overhaul mod
16:32:21  <Eddi|zuHause> but i think i missed something there, i couldn't really get it to work
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16:51:16  <Alberth> Samu: Why don't you compute all adjacent tiles from a tile that is in the list
16:51:50  <Alberth> likely only 2 adjacent tiles are enough in most cases
16:53:27  <Alberth> hmm, always inside the rectangle of the list eh? feels like it is always enough, but not sure
16:56:19  <Samu> they're adjacent to the tile in the middle
16:56:25  <Samu> not adjacent to each other
16:57:22  <Samu> the tile in the middle is the drivethrough station, and it has 2 adjacent tiles, its entrance and exit
16:57:40  <Samu> i am trying to get these entrance and exit tiles
16:57:54  <Samu> to be opposite
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17:14:17  <Alberth> can't you ask the direction of the road in the middle?
17:14:25  <Alberth> entry and exist is trivial then
17:14:37  <Alberth> *exit
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17:18:59  <Samu> no, at that phase I can't
17:19:32  <Samu> the station does not yet exist, these tiles are required to determine it's orientation
17:20:05  <Alberth> but you know the center tile?
17:20:10  <Samu> yes
17:20:20  <Alberth> then there are just 2 cases possible
17:20:53  <Alberth> no need to search for then, you can just create a tileindex one tile away from the center tile
17:21:57  <Alberth> or am i missing something?
17:26:09  <Samu> the middle tile has gone through other testings
17:26:19  <Samu> it's a "buildable tile"
17:26:24  <Samu> among other stuff
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17:27:30  <Samu> if(! ((AITile.IsBuildable(tile) || AIRoad.IsRoadTile(tile)) && AITile.GetSlope(tile) == AITile.SLOPE_FLAT)) {
17:27:36  <Samu> this is for the station tile
17:27:55  <Samu> it's also been through the evaluator
17:28:07  <Samu> and the nearby station checking stuff
17:28:21  <Samu> essentially, sometimes it is not a road
17:30:22  <Alberth> sure, but adjacent tiles to a tile are just +/- 1  in either x or y direction
17:30:33  <Alberth> you don't need to search for them
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17:35:13  <Samu> I don't know how to do it another way :(
17:37:32  <Samu> adjRoadTiles can contain 0, 1, 2, 3 or 4 tiles
17:38:26  <Samu> only tiles with roads are added, in a +/-1 X or Y direction
17:39:01  <Samu> this part of the code is reached in the case adjRoadTiles contain 3 or 4 tiles
17:39:22  <Alberth>
17:39:26  <Samu> let me see
17:40:21  <Alberth> untested :)
17:41:43  <Samu> I don't get 4 tiles all the time, sometimes I get 3
17:42:31  <Alberth> my code only checks for tile existence, not whether they contain road
17:44:17  <Alberth> but if you construct the pairs of entry/exit, keep them together, so you can either discard them together, or use them together
17:44:31  <Alberth> thus eliminating the need to find the pair again
17:45:22  <Samu> if (adjRoatTiles.HasItem(tile1) && adjRoatTiles.HasItem(tile2))
17:46:08  <Samu> adjTile = tile1; nextAdjTile = tile2;
17:46:12  <Samu> i see
17:46:38  <Samu> yeah, seems to make the code simpler
17:48:51  <Samu> Utils::getOffsetTile(tile, offsetX, offsetY)
17:48:57  <Samu> i can use this function even
17:49:02  <Samu> makes it shorter
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18:01:34  <Samu> Alberth:
18:01:48  <Samu> like that?
18:02:55  <Alberth> if there is always at least one pair, that seems fine
18:03:06  <Alberth> you may want to check that though
18:03:47  <Samu> yes, there's always one pair
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18:05:57  <Samu> thx for the help, it became much shorter
18:08:47  <Alberth> I'd say simpler rather than shorter, but yw :)
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18:22:20  <Samu> @calc 214/25
18:22:20  <DorpsGek> Samu: 8.56
18:24:29  <Samu> ludiai was unable to build mail aircraft, i just fixed it
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18:25:21  <Samu> i'm now trying to deal with airports with too many airplanes, they can't all land
18:25:44  <Samu> how am I supposed to tackle this
18:28:37  <Alberth> how do you deal with bus stations with too many buses?
18:31:28  <Samu> if the ai detects too many cargo in an airport, it builds a new aircraft
18:32:13  <Samu> but if the airports become saturated, the profits for each aircraft becomes too small and the ai will then sell them
18:32:40  <Samu> this is a bad situation, got to improve it
18:32:57  <Samu> builds, then sells, then builds, then sells
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18:43:42  <Wormnest> You make a guess of what the route can handle based on distance, airport size and airplane speed
18:44:35  <Wormnest> Besides that you can try to detect if there are planes waiting in hangar for a free spot
18:46:33  <Samu> wrigthai code doesn't accommodate for aircraft speed :(
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18:47:14  <Samu> 281
18:47:20  <Samu> @calc 281 / 25
18:47:20  <DorpsGek> Samu: 11.24
18:47:29  <Samu> 11 aircraft
18:47:46  <Samu> on a route of distance 281 manhathan tiles
18:48:27  <Samu> (list2.Count() * 25 > dist)
18:48:39  <Samu> @calc 11 * 25
18:48:39  <DorpsGek> Samu: 275
18:48:47  <Samu> ah, it builds 12
18:48:52  <Samu> and shall not build more than 12
18:52:12  <Samu> I'm worried about the faster planes
18:54:51  <Samu> looks like 25 is a good number
18:55:04  <Samu> i'm not getting that many airplanes waiting to land
18:55:26  <Samu> 1 airplane each 25 tiles
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18:59:20  <Samu> perhaps i shall increase
19:00:20  <Samu> on a route with 12 aircraft, there's always 2 or 3 trying to land
19:00:36  <Samu> @calc 281/9
19:00:36  <DorpsGek> Samu: 31.2222222222
19:00:45  <Samu> 31, hmm 30?
19:01:31  <Samu> @calc 9 * 30
19:01:31  <DorpsGek> Samu: 270
19:01:43  <Samu> hmm no, got to be more
19:01:47  <Samu> @calc 9 * 35
19:01:47  <DorpsGek> Samu: 315
19:01:55  <Samu> @calc 9 * 31
19:01:55  <DorpsGek> Samu: 279
19:18:00  <Samu> dang, speed matters :(
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19:30:58  <Samu> slow management by wrightai
19:31:02  <Samu> hmm
19:42:23  <V453000> the colour-trains-by-group didn't make it to trunk yet? :(
19:42:27  <V453000> also hi :)
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20:03:45  <planetmaker> ho ho
20:07:31  <Eddi|zuHause> is it christmas already? man time flies so fast
20:10:46  <Alberth> o/
20:34:36  <Samu> @calc 10 * 35
20:34:36  <DorpsGek> Samu: 350
20:34:41  <Samu> @calc 9 * 35
20:34:42  <DorpsGek> Samu: 315
20:34:48  <Samu> ok, it's correct
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21:21:10  <Samu> there is a bug with WrightAI itself
21:21:24  <Samu> doesn't keep track of the correct aircraft used in a route
21:21:29  <Samu> aircraft id
21:22:53  <Samu> waiting for an assert to trigger
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21:41:02  <Samu> ah, I think I know how to replicate
21:41:38  <Samu> a vehicleID 50 crashed and poofs
21:42:08  <Samu> wait, this is complicated to explain
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22:10:24  *** Yuri is now known as AngstyYuri
22:10:56  <AngstyYuri> 0hai
22:11:15  <AngstyYuri> Bizarre issue on OpenTTD downloads for 32bit -_-
22:11:34  <AngstyYuri> DL gets stuck at "128kb out of ??? kb" until paused and resumed
22:11:58  <AngstyYuri> Firefox user here
22:14:56  * AngstyYuri is an irritable, straight Russian male with severe alcohol intolerance
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22:53:23  <FLHerne> TrueBrain: ^
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23:12:05  <peter1138> WFM
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