Log for #openttd on 24th August 2018:
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08:09:11  <Wolf01> Moin
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11:01:47  <Samu_> if I have a variable like this...
11:01:48  <Samu_> local best_profit;
11:01:56  <Samu_> and then I do a comparison like this...
11:02:11  <Samu_> if (profit + AIVehicle.GetProfitThisYear(i) > best_profit) {
11:02:20  <Samu_> what is the value of best_profit?
11:02:23  <Samu_> 0?
11:04:27  <planetmaker> if you don't assign any value: most likely.
11:04:47  <planetmaker> but you should be explicit about it
11:05:15  <planetmaker> local int best_profit = 0;
11:05:35  <Samu_> hmm problem is that the profit could be negative and I'm comparing if it's > 0
11:05:50  <Samu_> i need a different solution
11:06:24  <Samu_> must start at null
11:06:32  <planetmaker> you're not interested in a profit < 0 anyway, are you?
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11:06:58  <planetmaker> so a list of loss-making connections is somewhat useless :P
11:07:10  <Samu_> I see
11:07:16  <Samu_> you're right
11:07:16  <planetmaker> and only remembering those which have at least some profit would probably suffice
11:07:56  <planetmaker> you just have to remember to check that you actually *did* select a route afterwards
11:08:42  <planetmaker> otherwise, there might be constant like MIN_INT or so
11:08:52  <planetmaker> or INT_MIN. Whatever. Or make that yourself.
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11:13:39  <Samu_> 		    if (best_profit == null || profit > best_profit) { 			    best_profit = profit; 			}
11:14:38  <Samu_> this should do
11:15:39  <Samu_> local best_profit = null;
11:15:46  <Samu_> there, explicitly said it to be null
11:16:35  <LordAro> ew
11:16:42  <LordAro> use something like -1 or some other "default value"
11:17:16  <LordAro> INT_MIN or whatever squirrel's equivalent is
11:17:30  <Samu_> i don't know, never seen it anywhere
11:18:31  <LordAro> well make one
11:18:45  <LordAro> integers in squirrel are 32bits
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11:22:08  <Wolf01> ha!
11:22:14  <LordAro> -10000 would likely do
11:23:13  <Samu_> I need a null
11:23:43  <Wolf01> Just change the "if" accordingly
11:23:44  <Samu_> if it's null, it means there was not enough time for a vehicle to make a difference
11:24:00  <Samu_> so I am adding more vehicles
11:24:13  <Samu_> if there is a number
11:24:24  <Samu_> and i don't like that number, i stop adding vehicles
11:25:16  <Samu_> what is the number that I won't like... that is the question
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11:30:41  <Samu_> perhaps this is the wrong approach, will test to see what the final behaviour is
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11:35:54  <Wolf01> Maybe it's time you start to ask questions (even to yourself) like: "I expect profit to be negative?"
11:36:16  <Samu_> i don't mean that
11:36:31  <Samu_> i put a 10000
11:36:37  <Wolf01> You can't code just by guessing
11:37:11  <Wolf01> Maybe at the 15th guess you get it right, but that's not the way
11:37:32  <Samu_> if (best_route_profit != null && best_route_profit < 10000) continue;
11:37:52  <Samu_> continue means don't add more vehicles to this route
11:38:54  <Samu_> if i dont use 10000, i dunno how am i gonna compute a value that I don't like
11:40:57  <Samu_> i think i better copy paste for u to see
11:41:10  <Wolf01> I don't even know how to reply
11:41:18  <Wolf01> Better if I shut up
11:41:37  <Samu_> ok :(
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11:58:45  <Samu_> well, it's working out okayish
11:59:37  <Samu_> the goal was to remove "unprofitable" routes
11:59:51  <Samu_> instead of keeping on adding aircraft to them
12:00:07  <Samu_> but... i guess 10000 is too harsh of a limit
12:00:37  <Samu_> once the route gets 0 aircraft, the airports are eliminated
12:01:38  <Samu_> I gotta find a different approach on getting the value I don't like
12:02:48  <Samu_> I want it to learn that value
12:02:54  <Samu_> compute it somehow
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12:17:24  <andythenorth> City Slickers?
12:17:33  <andythenorth> Emerald City?
12:17:52  <andythenorth> Downtown Train?
12:19:17  <Samu_> hi
12:24:34  <andythenorth> Waterloo Sunset
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13:50:55  <Wolf01> o/
13:50:59  <Alberth> o/
13:55:21  <LordAro> o/
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14:08:38  <andythenorth> so are water tunnels done yet? :)
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14:18:15  <Alberth> we have chunnels? :)
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14:48:10  <Eddi|zuHause> water tunnels might work if we have more/better ship classes
14:49:21  <Eddi|zuHause> something like: small (1/2 tile wide), medium (1 tile wide), large (2 tiles wide)
14:49:36  <Eddi|zuHause> then tunnels can be limited to small, or small+medium, or something
14:50:32  <Eddi|zuHause> and we need to construct ships out of smaller sprites, to reduce the glitching
14:51:44  <Eddi|zuHause> so each sprite has a bounding box max 1/2 tile in each dimension
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15:04:09  <Samu_> mail is hard
15:06:31  <Samu_> damn, the estimator is failing
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15:39:19  <andythenorth_> We Built This City (On Rock and Roll)?
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16:41:36  <andythenorth> Farm Town?
16:41:44  <andythenorth> Urban Sprawl?
16:42:22  <andythenorth> hmmm is newgrf town control implemented or just a wiki page?
16:42:25  <Alberth> what are they?
16:43:27  <andythenorth> I am dreaming up a FIRS economy :)
16:43:58  <andythenorth> Extreme will be deleted
16:43:58  <Alberth> wet dreams?  :p
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16:44:07  <andythenorth> urgh :p
16:44:09  <Alberth> industrial delight
16:44:44  <andythenorth> Better Living Through Chemistry is 1 of 2 that replace extreme
16:44:57  <andythenorth> theme should be obvious :p
16:45:09  <andythenorth> the other needs a name
16:45:11  <Alberth> :)
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16:45:54  <andythenorth> theme is delivery to towns, with the main production chains being food and building materials
16:46:24  <Alberth> feed the towns
16:46:58  <Samu_> i'm doing better in a 4k map, finally
16:47:24  <Samu_> it had some horrible start before
16:47:49  <andythenorth> Burger Van
16:48:00  <andythenorth> Hinterlands
16:48:14  <andythenorth> Urban Decay
16:49:09  <Alberth> learn to fish!
16:49:44  <Alberth> no fish in the economy, probably?
16:49:58  <Alberth> feed thyself
16:50:15  <andythenorth>
16:50:34  <andythenorth> Fish seems to be inevitable in all economies
16:51:47  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think you can put an "s" on "Hinterland"
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16:52:35  <Samu_> what is current usage supposed to mean in the vehicle list window?
16:52:41  <Samu_> it says 100%
16:52:43  <Samu_> 100% of what
16:52:47  <andythenorth> it has been done in English
16:53:20  <Eddi|zuHause> i mean, i would see it as an uncountable noun
16:53:21  <Alberth> Analogous terms include  "the countryside", "the sticks", "the boonies", backcountry, boondocks, the Bush (in Alaskan usage), and the outback (in Australian usage)
16:54:38  <Alberth> It's an area, so that makes sense
16:54:53  <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: but those words are for a different meaning
16:55:00  <andythenorth> I am thinking more about the rural areas in the shadow of a city
16:55:14  <andythenorth> hinterland seems to be contested meaning :)
16:55:34  <Alberth> surrounding villages
16:55:34  <Eddi|zuHause> well, it's somewhat of a derived meaning
16:58:19  <andythenorth> it’s likely not a good name :)
16:58:25  <andythenorth> non-obvious
16:59:02  <Samu_> not trying to brag, but...
16:59:04  <Alberth> "The soul of India lives in its villages", declared M. K. Gandhi   :)
16:59:18  <Samu_> this is weird, i didn't expect wormai to have such a bad start
16:59:21  <Alberth>
17:00:10  <Eddi|zuHause> also somewhat common name in germany is "Umland"
17:00:24  <andythenorth> Suburbia?
17:00:31  <Eddi|zuHause> which might be more fitting for cities which are not ports
17:00:36  <andythenorth> (pet shop boys song)
17:00:48  <Eddi|zuHause> no, suburbs are something different
17:00:56  <andythenorth> yeah
17:01:20  <andythenorth> what is the theme of this economy?
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17:04:15  <andythenorth> it will have lots of black holes
17:04:19  <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, "um" means (in this case) "around"
17:04:29  <andythenorth> Black Hole Sun?
17:05:13  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think the term "black hole" is widely understood in the user base
17:05:57  <Alberth> indeed, unless you talk about those things lots of light years away
17:06:20  <andythenorth> Mass Drop Off
17:06:40  <andythenorth> what cargos can be collected from town?
17:07:00  <Alberth> can't you have a name related to the city-builders?
17:07:03  <Eddi|zuHause> give mail a purpose?
17:07:18  <andythenorth> I wondered about a city building name
17:07:20  <Alberth> "Mail with a purpose"
17:07:27  <andythenorth> like We Built This City
17:07:38  <andythenorth> it has to be a book or song or film
17:07:49  <Alberth> song afaik
17:08:16  <Alberth> city construction kit
17:08:19  <andythenorth>
17:08:27  <andythenorth> ^ good book
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17:10:53  <Alberth> City trading (variation on title of chapter 5)
17:11:02  <Alberth> hola
17:11:23  <andythenorth> City Trader
17:11:33  <andythenorth> sounds a bit like stock markets :p
17:11:37  <andythenorth> but eh
17:12:01  <Eddi|zuHause> "Schöner Wohnen"
17:12:23  <andythenorth> so city produced cargos?
17:12:30  <andythenorth> - mail, pax
17:12:52  <andythenorth> - recyclables -> various cargos
17:13:06  <Alberth> Urban trading
17:13:23  <andythenorth> - “anaerobic digestate” -> farm supplies
17:13:29  <Eddi|zuHause> each house accepts and produces a random cargo, and they move around all the time, making managing routes a nightmare :p
17:13:37  <andythenorth> oof :)
17:13:51  <andythenorth> 16 randomised cargos :p
17:15:08  <Eddi|zuHause> "private mail", "business mail", "packages", "same-day-delivery"
17:15:50  <andythenorth> child #1 is keen that I add more processing industries in town
17:16:03  <andythenorth> like small factories and such
17:16:21  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah like bakery, brewery and stuff
17:16:53  <Eddi|zuHause> make the industries smaller (2x2, 1x3) and enforce nearby houses
17:16:58  <andythenorth> small factories are completely legit
17:17:18  <andythenorth> but producing what?
17:17:25  <Alberth> toy shops
17:17:30  <andythenorth> luxury items?
17:17:46  <andythenorth> photographic supplies?
17:17:47  <Alberth> refurbished furniturem 2nd hand goods
17:18:03  <Eddi|zuHause> various consumer goods
17:18:08  <andythenorth> pets and tropical fish?
17:18:12  <Eddi|zuHause> you wanted to split up goods anyway?
17:18:15  <andythenorth> garden gnomes?
17:18:23  <andythenorth> yes, goods needs split here
17:18:43  <Eddi|zuHause> jewelry, clothes, watches
17:19:03  <andythenorth> but most commodity industrial cargos need to come from ports
17:19:07  <andythenorth> steel etc
17:19:21  <Eddi|zuHause> seems fine
17:19:47  <Eddi|zuHause> no mining, raw materials are imported
17:20:08  <andythenorth> maybe coal mines
17:20:13  <Eddi|zuHause> there are no mines near Hamburg, London, New York, ...
17:20:44  <andythenorth> you have a point
17:20:59  <andythenorth> but I want to include bdmt commodities
17:21:09  <andythenorth> sand, limestone etc
17:21:18  <Eddi|zuHause> that seems fine
17:21:23  <andythenorth> gypsum, timber
17:22:00  <Eddi|zuHause> clay->bricks, wood->timber
17:22:15  <Eddi|zuHause> cement
17:22:25  <andythenorth> cement imported?
17:22:41  <Alberth> pre-fabricated houses
17:22:48  <Eddi|zuHause> nah, leave the imports to metal, coal, oil, whatever
17:22:54  <andythenorth> major cities are highly dependent on their ports
17:23:12  <Eddi|zuHause> so cement is local
17:23:16  <Eddi|zuHause> steel is not
17:23:24  <andythenorth> ok
17:23:25  <Alberth> :O   air bridge?
17:24:14  <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: i don't think much steel has been transported by air bridge :p
17:25:03  <andythenorth> oof
17:25:25  <andythenorth> how did I miss that UK cement uses a lot of chalk?
17:25:35  <Alberth> Eddi: steel may have been looking a lot like an aircraft :p
17:25:46  <andythenorth> that would rebalance limestone, which is over-demanded
17:26:18  <andythenorth> but I’d have to draw a quarry :x
17:26:40  <Alberth> there is a toffee quary :p
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17:53:47  <Samu_> Wormnest: are you there? is your ai supposed to be bad in 4k maps (aircraft only)
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17:55:36  <Samu_> i need to test this solo
18:02:08  <peter1138> Everything is bad in 4k maps.
18:02:27  <Samu_> not always the case
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18:08:33  <Wormnest> Samu_: It´s not optimized for 4k by default at least but might also depend on other settings
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18:09:14  <andythenorth> scrap tyres? -> burnt as fuel
18:09:21  <andythenorth> bottled water?
18:09:29  <andythenorth> fizzy drinks?
18:09:39  <Samu_> relatively easy settings
18:09:40  <andythenorth> scientific instruments?
18:09:41  <Alberth> we have those already!
18:09:44  <Samu_> startin in 1950
18:09:47  <andythenorth> waste oil?
18:09:50  <Samu_> temperate
18:10:05  <Alberth> scrap tyres could just be fuel imho
18:10:06  <Samu_> reduced breakdowns
18:10:15  <Samu_> no infrastructure costs
18:10:27  <andythenorth> biomass?
18:10:48  <Samu_> reduced plane crashes, aircraft speed 1/4
18:10:57  <andythenorth> demolition rubble -> crushed for aggregate
18:11:11  <Samu_> 500k max loan, low running costs, low construction costs
18:11:13  <Wormnest> Maybe it needs longer to get up to speed
18:12:24  <Samu_> i saw him choosing some same towns as my version of ludiai
18:12:29  <Samu_> in a 4k map!
18:12:33  <Samu_> 20k towns
18:12:42  <Samu_> and they pick the same :(
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18:13:00  <Samu_> 12k, my bad
18:13:07  <Wormnest> Well maybe because they both think those are the best choices
18:13:22  <Samu_> aha, i see him doing much better as solo
18:13:31  <Samu_> fast forwarding 4k maps is a bit slow
18:13:43  <Samu_> rough start though
18:14:23  <Samu_> oh, its decreasing again
18:15:21  <Samu_>
18:15:27  <Samu_> comparing side by side as solo
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18:17:52  <Samu_> and with this, i might consider my "fix" of ludiai finished
18:17:58  <andythenorth> satellites -> launch site?
18:18:01  <Samu_> it's doing better than anticipated
18:18:05  <andythenorth> too much kerbal?
18:18:08  <Samu_> than expected*
18:18:20  <Wolf01> With actual launch of rockets?
18:19:13  <Wormnest> It might do better with the introduction of large airports/airplanes
18:20:01  <LordAro> andythenorth: never enough
18:20:45  <Samu_> I will wait for that
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18:21:17  <Wormnest> So are you going to publish your version of ludiai?
18:22:08  <Samu_> I'm not sure I can do that
18:22:23  <Samu_> licenses stuff and whatnot
18:22:50  <Wormnest> Isn´t it gpl
18:23:19  <Samu_> it says gpl 2.0, but i never seen the original author in the forum at all
18:23:29  <Samu_> feels wrong to publish it
18:23:44  <LordAro> as long as you also release under gpl, there's no issue
18:23:50  <LordAro> i'd probably want to rename it or something
18:24:25  <Wormnest> strike that LordAro was faster in typing lol
18:27:13  <Samu_> it builds too many helistations though
18:27:20  <Samu_> once they're available
18:29:24  <Wormnest> Well you can always improve it in a new version
18:35:11  <peter1138> 19:12 < Samu_> and they pick the same :(
18:35:22  <peter1138> you need to add some random heuristic so stop that.
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18:38:53  <Samu_> wormai is upgrading airports :p
18:40:26  <Samu_> ludiai doesn't upgrade airports, it just stops building vehicles for that route, and sells vehicles when they're old, and if it finds empty airports, it destroys them, and then it will probably build a hopefuly better airport after
18:40:53  <Samu_> too lazy to code
18:41:56  <Alberth> that's named "future extension"  :p
18:43:34  <Samu_> well, it only does this to the small airport, to be honest
18:43:46  <Samu_> because it expires
18:43:53  <Alberth> "partially implemented"  :)
18:53:00  <Samu_> FFP Dart is available now
18:56:03  <Samu_> seems that the min and max distances are nearly on-target now
18:57:12  <Samu_> probably gonna need a better looking at it, but so far, the results are impressing me
19:00:25  <Samu_> in a single month, wormai doubled the profit
19:00:33  <Samu_> ffp dart must have helped
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20:01:55  <andythenorth> I can’t reliably adjust house carhos, right?
20:02:01  <andythenorth> cargos*
20:02:17  <andythenorth> except by making my own house grf?
20:03:28  <Alberth> sounds likely
20:04:24  <andythenorth> parcels would make more sense if accepted by houses
20:05:03  <andythenorth> hmm, what if openttd towns didn’t have sewers or mains gas? o_O
20:05:19  <andythenorth> septic tanks -> foul water
20:05:29  <andythenorth> LPG -> houses
20:09:37  <Alberth> fork swedish houses? :)
20:10:15  <andythenorth> I could :p
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20:10:50  <Alberth> or supply a patch, and hope it is accepted
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20:30:33  <Wolf01>
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21:08:36  <Samu_> hmm, the min and max distances are overly inflated :(
21:09:04  <Samu_> i knew this would not gonna work in the long run
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21:12:41  <Samu_> must think
21:13:46  <Samu_> The goal is to have it compute the optimal [min, max] distances for a route
21:13:56  <Samu_> interval
21:14:23  <Samu_> so that whenever it attempts to build a new route, the range fits between those values
21:15:16  <Samu_> any ideas how to do this?
21:18:38  <Samu_> regardlessl, it's still increasing profits, but I'm starting to get many vehicles being sent to depots
21:19:13  <Samu_> a closed route will change the min value
21:19:26  <Samu_> it's been increasing way too much :(
21:19:56  <Samu_> i'm getting range intervals of 1936-2514
21:20:06  <Wolf01> Making self playing games which play too much well
21:20:08  <Samu_> that's too many tiles for a route
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21:32:55  <Samu_> perhaps i need a different approach
21:39:40  <Samu_> it's funny, the profits still keep rising...
21:39:50  <Samu_> i was expecting them to stall at some point
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