Log for #openttd on 26th September 2018:
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00:08:20  <Eddi|zuHause> c++11 is only 7 years old, how can you demand support for that?
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01:58:44  <Samu> what's the fastest priority queue for graph aystar?
02:00:36  <Samu> and when i mean fastest, it's the one with less op codes needed
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02:19:25  <Samu> very funny
02:19:27  <Samu>
02:19:42  <Samu> fibonacci heap vs binary heap
02:20:18  <Samu> fibonacci was faster than binary, but the routes are different
02:20:31  <Samu> why?
02:20:47  <Samu> all costs are the same on both
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08:12:46  <peter1138> hi
08:14:02  <LordAro> o/
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09:14:29  <crem4> Did TTD take a sawmill sound from beginning of Billy Joel's "Allentown" song?
09:14:32  <crem4> \o
09:18:03  <peter1138> Stock audio, probably.
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09:35:30  <LordAro> i hear AoE2's horse sound so often
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09:52:47  <Samu> hi
09:53:50  <Samu> why does fibonacci heap and binary heap produce different results?
09:53:59  <Samu> is that supposed to happen?
09:54:33  <Samu> here
09:55:30  <Samu> take a look at the 2 images and the roads built on both, they're different
10:07:10  <Samu> just tried priority queue, it's utterly slow
10:07:37  <Samu> produced the same result as fibonacci
10:07:44  <Samu> does that mean it's binary heap that's bugged?
10:07:54  <Samu> or it's not a bug at all?
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12:45:52  <Samu> hi
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14:23:47  <Samu> are heaps supposed to give different results?
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14:48:14  <Samu> @calc 0x7FFFFFFF
14:48:14  <DorpsGek> Samu: 2147483647
14:52:04  <andythenorth> o/
14:52:05  <andythenorth> such
14:52:07  <andythenorth> and very
14:53:47  <Samu> andythenorth: do u understand fibonacci heap and binary heap used in aystar?
14:54:08  <Samu> priority queue
14:57:40  <LordAro> Samu: asking anyone who says anything is bordering on harrassment
14:57:44  <LordAro> go ask google
14:58:14  <Samu> :(
14:58:29  <Samu> google doesn't help here
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14:59:28  <Samu> it's very specific to my observed results
15:00:09  <Samu> aren't priority queues supposed to deliver the same results?
15:02:52  <andythenorth> I am quitting the channel for a bit
15:02:59  <andythenorth> getting asked random questions about stuff
15:03:03  <andythenorth> is pointless
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15:03:43  <Eddi|zuHause> that's why i have an ignore list
15:03:46  <Samu> sorry
15:04:13  <Eddi|zuHause> with about 2 entries on it
15:04:25  <Samu> don't have where else to ask abouth this kind of things
15:04:51  <nielsm> find a professor of computer science, or research things yourself
15:07:31  <LordAro> Samu: first step would be working out what a heap is
15:07:34  <LordAro> then go from there
15:07:39  <LordAro> wikipedia's pretty good at this sort of stuff
15:07:40  <nielsm> asking why two variants of a complex algorithm produce different results is a really difficult question and will likely require hours of research
15:08:06  <nielsm> that is, for someone already well acquianted with the concepts involved
15:08:47  <nielsm> for someone who hasn't learned about the algorithms and data structures it's built upon it'll take days or weeks to get up to speed
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15:31:22  <Samu> i think im gonna investigate this on my own
15:31:26  <Samu> google doesn't help
15:31:50  <Samu> in reading valgrinds and stack and heaps, nothing to do with what I'm looking for
15:31:55  <Samu> I give up
15:34:12  <Samu> i used Queue.PriorityQueue-2 and produced the same result as Queue.FibonacciHeap-3
15:34:17  <Samu> albeit extremely slow
15:34:39  <Samu> only Queue.BinaryHeap-1 is different
15:35:09  <Samu> but that's what Graph.AyStar-6 is using, I must understand why
15:35:31  <FLHerne> Samu: The problem is that most of what you write here is just meaningless to anyone else without telepathy
15:36:29  <FLHerne> The sort of implementation-detail questions you're asking only really make sense in the context of how you're thinking about a specific bit of code
15:36:46  <FLHerne> But no-one else can know what you're looking at, nor what you're thinking about it
15:37:06  <Samu> it's about these images
15:37:16  <FLHerne> I mean, yes I know about different kinds of heap, and yes I know about A*
15:37:18  <crem4> If it's a heap with standard opeartions, and there are no equal elements, any heap implementation will have the same results.
15:37:39  <crem4> If there are equal elements, they can be returned from heap in arbitrary order.
15:37:56  <FLHerne> But understanding why /you/ care about using different kinds of heap, in A*, right now, and what your problems with that are would take a whole conversation that I don't have time for
15:38:54  <FLHerne> ^ditto for the images
15:39:05  <FLHerne> I can see you have images with slightly-different debug output
15:39:16  <Samu> the routes are different in themselves
15:39:26  <Samu> and the only thing I changed was the queue
15:39:31  <Samu> look at the roads
15:39:31  <FLHerne> I don't know what produces that output, nor what it means, nor why it (presumably) concerns you
15:40:17  <FLHerne> Hm
15:40:29  <FLHerne> Then if they have different costs, your code is wrong somehow :P
15:41:03  <Samu> nop, the costs are the same, only difference was queue class
15:41:35  <Samu> towns didn't grow, didn't build roads, i have that disabled
15:41:50  <FLHerne> Either the heap sorting itself, or you have some error in how you take items from the queue
15:42:04  <FLHerne> It /says right in your images/ that the route costs were different
15:42:24  <Samu> that's not the pathfinder cost
15:42:30  <Samu> that is the £
15:42:52  <FLHerne> Ok, so back to "you don't provide enough context for anyone to provide meaningful input"
15:43:08  <FLHerne> I said that, and tried to ignore it anyway, and it didn't work :P
15:43:34  <Samu> ok, gonna try get the pathfinder costs displayed
15:43:35  <Samu> brb
15:43:43  <FLHerne> Meh
15:43:50  <FLHerne> It won't help
15:44:19  <FLHerne> Trying to get input on that sort of debugging over a text channel /is just a waste of people's time/
15:44:38  <FLHerne> You need to share more state with the other person than anyone can reasonably type
15:44:57  <FLHerne> (and end up spamming the channel, like you have been for weeks)
15:45:30  <FLHerne> General design decisions, choice of algorithm, maybe
15:46:12  <FLHerne> But "my code doesn't work, why?!" isn't something it's worth discussing except with someone else looking at the same code and ideally in the same room
15:46:39  <FLHerne> [/rant]
15:51:41  <Eddi|zuHause> weeks? my ignore list entry is from years ago... nothing improved...
15:53:33  <Samu> [16:37] <crem4> If there are equal elements, they can be returned from heap in arbitrary order.
15:53:45  <Samu> should be something like this that's happening, have to investigate
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15:56:40  <FLHerne> Samu: If the final pathfinder costs /are/ identical, there's no problem
15:57:17  <FLHerne> A* is guaranteed to return /an/ optimal path; if there's more than one of those it can return any of them based on anything
15:58:07  <FLHerne> (which is why the ship pathfinder is so slow, the big equal-cost areas of water give it far too many options)
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16:03:11  <Samu> Queue.PriorityQueue-2: ticks: 28016, pathfinder cost: 9120
16:04:17  <Samu> Queue.FibonacciHeap-3: ticks: 524, pathfinder cost: 9120
16:04:48  <Alberth> if equal, prefer smallest estimate (ie generally closer to the end-point)
16:05:30  <Samu> Queue.BinaryHeap-1-1: ticks: 544, pathfinder cost: 9120
16:12:36  <FLHerne> Ok, so there's no problem
16:12:48  <FLHerne> All the routes are equally valid
16:13:07  <Samu> min_cost = min(_AIMap.DistanceManhattan(cur_tile, tile) * self._cost_tile, min_cost);
16:13:19  <Samu> the estimator
16:13:56  <Samu> 	foreach (tile in goal_tiles) {
16:14:00  <Alberth> weird
16:14:12  <Samu> there's only 1 goal tile
16:14:44  <Alberth> ah, fair enough, that's the 'min' about
16:17:32  <Samu> gonna plant signs, i wanna see how different they behave
16:20:39  <nielsm> I'm quite sure you're into entirely acememic exercise territory now. if your goal is to understand the algorithms, go ahead, but if your goal is optimization you're better off just picking one based on measurements and try to find other ways to fast-eliminate potential route segments
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16:20:50  <nielsm> (i.e. experiment with heuristics)
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16:53:19  <Samu> - the signs
16:53:25  <Samu> that kinda explains it
16:53:53  <Samu> those are the open neighbours
16:54:21  <Samu> Fibonacci opened less
16:56:06  <Samu> seems that fibonacci is better for my purposes :p
16:57:34  <Samu> out of curiosity, will check Queue.PriorityQueue-2
16:57:49  <Samu> how this one builds them signs
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17:01:23  <Alberth> you tried it in the other direction as well?
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17:02:40  <Alberth> o/
17:02:44  <Wolf01> o/
17:12:14  <Samu> heh, it took so long that industries closed, it affected outcome
17:12:44  <Samu> but it seems to match fibonacci
17:12:58  <Samu> except that part closer to the industry that went missing
17:13:26  <Samu> sec, uploading
17:14:10  <Samu>
17:14:26  <Samu> steel mill gave place to a forest
17:14:35  <Wolf01> Does somebody remember a game like SEGA Golden Axe but with a warrior, a ranger and a wizard? I played it on a coin-op like 25 years ago and I forgot the name, every time I see Golden Axe on my library I remember that one
17:15:15  <peter1138> I remember Golden Axe.
17:15:22  <Samu> i played it on pc
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17:21:51  <Samu> in sum, what I learned, binary heap ordering of equal elements is different than the other two, and while it's not wrong, it's still as mismatch :(
17:22:02  <Samu> oh well
17:23:09  <Samu> is it *ahem* easy to fix?
17:23:24  <Samu> sorry for asking
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17:27:22  <Alberth> give less room, consider tiles closer to the target (lower estimate) better if the total cost is the same
17:30:15  <nielsm> for building roads, I think giving penalty to turns, slopes, and directions away from the final destination, would be a start
17:30:22  <nielsm> but I don't know what you have now
17:30:43  <Samu> i could copy paste my code
17:30:48  <Samu> if interested :o
17:31:06  <nielsm> also perhaps outright rejecting tiles outside a rectangle bounded by the source and destination plus some border space
17:31:46  <nielsm> and if finding a valid route with that bounding box fails, increase the allowed border space and try again
17:32:24  <nielsm> source and destination being the full route endpoints, not any partial route
17:32:32  <Samu>
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17:41:53  <Samu> hmm the rectangle idea
17:43:00  <Samu> it's something to do with the estimator, right
17:43:17  <nielsm> the neighbors function I think
17:43:36  <Samu> make the estimator return some incredibly high cost if going outside that rectangle
17:43:49  <nielsm> that's also a possibility
17:44:11  <nielsm> adding to the cost the further away from the ideal bounding box you go
17:45:16  <Samu> DistanceSquare
17:45:25  <Samu> :) gonna mess with it
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17:48:52  <andythenorth> lo
17:48:57  <Alberth> oi
17:49:05  <andythenorth> oo
17:49:33  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: so I should reject this?
17:56:03  <Samu> oops, forget distancesquare
18:00:35  <planetmaker> hihi
18:00:47  <andythenorth> hello planetmaker :D
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18:24:14  <Wolf01> <Wolf01> Does somebody remember a game like SEGA Golden Axe but with a warrior, a ranger and a wizard? I played it on a coin-op like 25 years ago and I forgot the name, every time I see Golden Axe on my library I remember that one <- ha! should be "the king of dragons"
18:24:37  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: it's a valid feature request, but it's probably more involved than you think
18:25:10  <andythenorth> my friend had a game with a warrior a ranger and a wizard
18:25:13  <andythenorth> on the amiga
18:25:17  <andythenorth> or maybe that was goldenaxe
18:25:19  <Wolf01>
18:25:57  <Wolf01> Is the one with the green and orange dragon
18:27:38  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: the version I want is probably invalid
18:27:46  <andythenorth> all handled in newgrf, I abuse it for livery tricks
18:28:02  <andythenorth> won't work due to recursion failure?
18:28:41  <Wolf01> And now, for the nostalgia time, I should find out the sega game I played with my cousin, of which I recreated the gun with lego :P
18:28:43  <Eddi|zuHause> it'll work, but only on otherwise symmetric vehicles.
18:28:59  <andythenorth> I think that's close enough to "won't work"
18:32:39  <Eddi|zuHause> ok, well, it's a "bad" feature request in the sense that you're not requesting what you want, but a have a too specific implementation of what you want in mind which doesn't fit with the reality of the game
18:33:16  <andythenorth>
18:33:33  <andythenorth> I wonder what shift-click does in depot
18:34:32  <Eddi|zuHause> likely the same thing as everywhere else, estimate the cost of whatever a normal click would do (usually 0 won't show up)
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18:43:37  <andythenorth> do we support alt-click? :P
18:43:51  <andythenorth> all the ideas I've seen for liveries involve pissing around with dropdown menus
18:43:55  <andythenorth> which is terribly indirect
18:44:50  <Eddi|zuHause> alt+click is usually special on linuxoid windowing systems, and doesn't arrive at the program level
18:44:55  <andythenorth> ctrl-click is really direct
18:46:19  <Eddi|zuHause> you could add more options for the "can this vehicle flip" callback to determine what action is actually done on ctrl+click
18:46:39  <Eddi|zuHause> (nothing, flip, cycle livery group, ...?)
18:47:06  <andythenorth> that is an appealing proposal
18:47:25  <andythenorth> I would just modify it to delete 'flip'
18:47:34  <andythenorth> newgrf author has to handle flipping explicitly anyway
18:47:50  <andythenorth> the alleged support doesn't work for non 8/8 vehicles
18:52:00  <andythenorth> nielsm: fancy patching flip? :)
18:52:10  <nielsm> nah
18:53:08  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: that is exactly the point of the callback. the builtin flipping doesn't work for non-8/8 so the callback is there to tell the game "hey, it's safe to flip this non-8/8 because i implemented it myself"
19:04:28  <andythenorth> hmm
19:04:30  <andythenorth> but why?
19:04:37  <andythenorth> it has been removed in JGR PP
19:04:40  <andythenorth> so why is it needed?
19:05:46  <andythenorth>
19:07:53  <andythenorth> hmm the newgrf wiki does say that flipping isn't magic for shorter vehicles
19:08:36  * andythenorth checks the nml docs
19:09:07  <andythenorth> nml docs aren't as explicit
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19:33:05  <Samu> what do you think?
19:34:10  <Samu> the further is goes away from the distancemanhattan(source, goal), the higher the estimate cost
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19:34:59  <Samu> that comment is false, don't read it
19:35:17  <Samu> at lines 30, 31
19:48:14  <Alberth> of course
19:48:27  <Eddi|zuHause> it's not "magic", you just need different sprite offsets, because the offsets are relative to the start of the bounding box, not the center
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19:59:29  <andythenorth> well it could be made magic
20:00:04  <andythenorth> I implemented my own last year so potato / potato
20:00:58  <Alberth> why do you have both multiple sources and multiple goals, samu? seems a bit too much, doesn't it?
20:05:47  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: so what does the spec look like for ctrl-click has multiple interpretations?
20:06:29  <Samu> because it's what graph.Aystar reads
20:06:58  <Samu> i haven't really touched graph.aystar code, except for the priority queue class
20:07:03  <Samu> and placing signs
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20:18:37  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: needs more looking up what the actual spec is currently before i can answer that
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20:42:02  <Wolf01> 'night
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20:51:31  <sushibear> Hello guys! Is OpenTTD being developed in C or C++?
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20:52:54  <LordAro> C++
20:53:13  <LordAro> though it was originally C, so there's still quite a lot of C-isms in the codebase
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21:03:11  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: it might be just another flag :P
21:03:23  <andythenorth> but that seems slightly wrong
21:03:53  <andythenorth>
21:04:11  <andythenorth> I suspect there's no clean way to change the semantics of bit 3
21:04:15  <andythenorth> and bit 3 can't be removed
21:04:35  <andythenorth> and adding 'just another bit' for livery counting conflicts with bit 3
21:16:30  <andythenorth> can't have 2 separate bits for the behaviour
21:16:43  <andythenorth> needs a bitmask eh? :P
21:16:59  <andythenorth> or
21:17:11  <andythenorth> how about changing semantics of bit 3 to 'ctrl-click can be used in depot'
21:17:40  <andythenorth> and adding a new bit for what var ctrl-click changes: 0 = flip, 1 = counter
21:17:51  <andythenorth> backwards compatible :P
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21:24:58  <planetmaker> sushibear, and there's places in the codebase where C probably will loom long (or forever). And there's some objective-C in the OSX support.
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21:38:12  <andythenorth> oof bed
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21:56:59  <sushibear> Mah dudes, what is FHC?
21:57:33  <LordAro> context?
21:58:46  <sushibear> "FHC server" i guess... I found the term here:
21:59:35  <LordAro> ""
21:59:44  <sushibear> Oh xD
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