Log for #openttd on 12th October 2018:
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11:27:04  <Eddi|zuHause> somehow i'm not sure i made the right call for a crew uniform
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11:45:37  <Pikka> it's a look
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12:07:31  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] orudge approved pull request #6939: Fix #6938: Don't change company value to perform cost estimations
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14:35:14  <frosch123> "I dont like how you made the game look like its from the 90s, especially the way the music sounds. Btw can you add new buildings to the game perhaps Better Skyscrapers and more modern buildings." <- lol
14:36:04  <nielsm> is that someone on tt-forums?
14:36:14  <frosch123> no, e-mail to info@
14:36:23  <nielsm> :D
14:37:08  <nielsm> not much to say other than, yes it is in fact based on a 25 year old game
14:40:49  <Samu> frosch123: can you talk to me?
14:41:36  <Eddi|zuHause> reply: "do you even NewGRF?"
14:41:53  <Arveen> so ... are you going to ? :D
14:42:55  <Eddi|zuHause> "Dear Sir or Ma'am, opposing to all the other '90s-lookalike-games nowadays, this game actually IS from the '90s"
14:42:59  <Samu> frosch123: i made a 2nd commit there
14:44:00  <Samu> I feel disconnected
14:46:09  <peter1138> s/opposing/compared/
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15:41:26  <Fahrradkette> greetings everybody
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15:44:11  <Fahrradkette> I'm playing a FIRS game and like to balance engi/farm supplies among stations. (multiple supplier, multiple consumer) would that be possible using timetables?
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17:01:12  <nielsm> Fahrradkette theoretically it would be, yes
17:02:49  <Fahrradkette> nielsm: does that imply it's not practical? :)
17:03:05  <nielsm> easiest way to timetable it would likely be having a single, shared route that visits all destinations, in an A-B-A-C-A-D-A-E etc. manner, and have a fleet of vehicles running that route
17:03:09  <nielsm> I think
17:04:02  <nielsm> in practice timetables in OTTD tend to break when confronted with varying presence of cargo to load, and other traffic ;)
17:04:47  <nielsm> and keeping a fleet running to a shared timetable synced with approximately equal distance between them often falls apart
17:04:59  <Fahrradkette> so the "auto" button doesn't mean "spread all the trains on that route (i.e. the set of trains having an order shared)?
17:05:01  <nielsm> in particular, make sure you play with breakdowns disabled
17:05:31  <nielsm> the "auto" button just measures the time it takes to complete the route, and sets that as the timetable
17:05:51  <Fahrradkette> oh
17:06:07  <nielsm> then you have to ctrl-click the "set start time" button to distribute the timetable start time for all vehicles sharing the orders
17:07:01  <Fahrradkette> does it matter where the vehicles are at the time i ctrl+click [set start time]?
17:07:27  <nielsm> honestly, I think the timetable UI is bad, confusing, and does nothing to make it easy to operate
17:07:52  <nielsm> not really, no, they'll just hang out on their next stop until it's their timetables departure
17:07:56  <Fahrradkette> does OTTD have some lua/python3 scripting?
17:08:04  <nielsm> no, nothing
17:08:22  <LordAro> well, not directly
17:08:30  <nielsm> there are AI and GameScript, which use Squirrel language
17:08:50  <nielsm> but those are for programming AI opponents and scenarios
17:09:17  <Fahrradkette> so not to be leveraged to extending the usability?
17:09:57  <Fahrradkette> I.e. dynamic eval
17:10:15  <Fahrradkette> and possibly UI primitives exposed
17:10:42  <nielsm> nope
17:10:47  <Fahrradkette> qq
17:14:36  <Fahrradkette> so the most straight forward way to have a "spread vehicles in route"-feature is to write it in c++ and build it myself?
17:15:22  <nielsm> it already exists
17:15:35  <nielsm> it just has annoying UI
17:16:15  <nielsm> and well, it can't make vehicles skip orders for the initial vehicle distribution
17:17:44  <Fahrradkette> but after some ingame years it eventually works reliably (even with network congestion and breakdowns)?
17:18:47  <nielsm> if you build enough slack into the timetable to allow for breakdowns and servicing, it might be able to work somewhat reliably
17:19:47  <nielsm> but honestly, it can be difficult to get a pair of buses running between two stops to not bunch of
17:19:55  <nielsm> bunch up*
17:22:10  <Fahrradkette> my concern is about the FIRS engi/farm supplies, they should arrive within 3 months of each others
17:22:50  <frosch123> my strategy is to have smaller vehicles arrive more often
17:23:07  <frosch123> so, no big load every 3 months, but smaller loads every 10 days or so
17:23:14  <nielsm> yeah my best success has been just having a fleet of small road vehicles running constantly
17:23:34  <frosch123> it's easier to distribute cargo evenly then, no vehicle takes all/has to wait for full load etc
17:24:09  <nielsm> another alternative is to attemp making the pickup trains also carry a single car of supplies back, but it's not entirely reliable
17:24:12  <Fahrradkette> so no full load order?
17:24:33  <frosch123> no, the priority is even and continuous supply
17:24:41  <frosch123> efficiency does not matter
17:25:23  <nielsm> you also shouldn't use full load orders together with timetables
17:25:48  <nielsm> better to timetable enough time for a vehicle to get "sufficient" load in average supply conditions
17:25:58  <frosch123> you can make good use of time tables if you only set loading times, no travel times
17:26:29  <Fahrradkette> ca I set a "wait for 1st of month" condition in time tables?
17:26:35  <frosch123> "load for 3 days" is an intermediate option between "load " and "full load"
17:27:12  <nielsm> afaik a vehicle will always load as much cargo as available, even if it means it has to stay longer than timetabled at a stop
17:27:25  <Fahrradkette> or like wait for next "month % 4 == 0" ?
17:27:48  <nielsm> but you can "load for 10 days" to pick up as much cargo as is supplied during 10 days, if the supply is uneven and too little is waiting at the station
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17:27:56  <andythenorth> o/
17:28:41  <nielsm> no, timetables only allow for "stay at station for X days" and "spend X days on travel and if you arrive earlier, wait at station to make up for it"
17:28:56  <nielsm> you can't make date-based rules
17:30:24  <Fahrradkette> what if the vehicle is delayed? will it just skim off of the next time waiting?
17:30:52  <frosch123> yes
17:30:53  <nielsm> it always stays at least the timetabled number of days at a station, afaik
17:30:58  <nielsm> or, hm?
17:31:23  <nielsm> well, it never leaves a station without being either full or there being no more cargo waiting
17:31:29  <frosch123> if a vehicle is late, it tries to leave as early as possible
17:31:47  <frosch123> it won't abort unloading/loading waiting cargo though
17:31:54  <andythenorth> oof timetables :P
17:31:55  <Fahrradkette> so if I planned the whole trip it could end up date-based? (providing enough leeway at the loading station)
17:32:11  <frosch123> you can make your timetable take 30 days
17:32:21  <nielsm> yes if you set up a timetable that runs exactly 60 days you have effectively a two-month basis
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17:32:43  <frosch123> or if you switch to ticks, you can also make it about 30.4375 days
17:32:44  <andythenorth> things andythenorth never understood in OpenTTD: timetables, conditional orders
17:33:08  <Fahrradkette> oh there are conditional orders?
17:33:10  <frosch123> to approximate month lengths and leap days
17:33:12  <nielsm> conditional orders I've never used, timetables is something I use sparingly :P
17:33:48  <Fahrradkette> how elaborate is it? (Can I calculate the mandelbrot set)?
17:34:09  <frosch123> no, it's for vehicle sorting
17:34:15  <frosch123> by speed etc
17:34:25  <frosch123> if you run different vehicles with shared orders or so
17:34:40  <frosch123> some people use it for servicing
17:35:08  <Fahrradkette> so it's for signals?
17:35:16  <Fahrradkette> i.e. bypass express lanes
17:35:18  <frosch123> Fahrradkette: it's "conditional orders", not "turing orders"
17:35:43  * Fahrradkette was hoping for a functional language
17:35:52  <frosch123> i think noone really knows what conditional orders are for :p
17:37:37  <frosch123>
17:37:48  <frosch123> i think most use-cases are about detours to depots
17:38:10  <andythenorth> nielsm: I use timetables, in lieu of 'load until at least x% full' :)
17:38:18  <LordAro> you can construct logic gates out of signals, i don't know about orders :p
17:38:20  <andythenorth> which is the one conditional order that would actually be useful, instead of all the BS ones
17:38:39  <andythenorth> conditional orders solve a problem no-one has
17:39:15  <nielsm> andythenorth ditto
17:39:38  <andythenorth> I use timetables for 'wait for x days'
17:39:41  <andythenorth> when loading
17:39:45  <nielsm> or "load X units of cargo and absolutely no more"
17:39:57  <nielsm> as well as a corresponding "unload X units" order
17:42:25  <andythenorth> 'unload exactly', 'unload at least'
17:42:42  <andythenorth> X units is problematic with (1) varying vehicle capacity (2) varying cargo unit suffixes
17:42:46  <nielsm> "unload at least", what if it doesn't have that much???
17:42:47  <andythenorth> but % works
17:42:58  <andythenorth> 'unload up to'
17:43:03  <andythenorth> 'load at least'
17:43:40  <nielsm> that's % of total capacity then, presumably
17:44:08  <andythenorth> probably
17:44:16  <andythenorth> and then is it specified per cargo?
17:44:25  <Fahrradkette> thanks for the tipps guys, conditional orders seem to be helpful in a FIRS game imho
17:44:40  <andythenorth> I think alberth looked at it, and decided it's a rework of orders that's needed, not a new order type
17:44:47  <andythenorth> but then that's almost impossible to do, so eh
17:44:49  <nielsm> per cargo would make a single order line use arbitrary amounts of storage
17:45:02  <nielsm> allowing multiple order lines for a single stop might be better
17:45:49  <andythenorth> it's one of the few features I'd like to see added tbh, outside of newgrf spec stuff
17:45:54  <andythenorth> mostly I'd prefer removing features :P
17:46:21  <nielsm> "stop at station X" "and unload 20% of supplies capacity" "and load 50% of coal capacity"
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17:46:42  <andythenorth> so an order can have sub-orders?
17:46:47  <nielsm> pretty much
17:46:53  * andythenorth wonders what cdist will do with it :)
17:47:02  <nielsm> also make refit orders sub-orders
17:47:04  <andythenorth> I guess cdist just sees a fraction of the cargo move
17:47:15  <nielsm> go home and cry
17:47:27  <nielsm> yeah, less capacity available?
17:48:21  <nielsm> if a train carrying up to 200 tons of coal is told to load 50% of capacity, it only has 100 units capacity from that stop
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17:51:12  <andythenorth> cdist doesn't measure actual capacity iirc, except in the case of two equivalent routes
17:51:23  <andythenorth> I wrote it down somewhere, fonso explained it to me
17:54:03  * LordAro doesn't understand cdist
17:54:37  <nielsm> it does something and then sometimes cargo stays on the train or decides to not ride
17:55:58  <frosch123> btw. recently i got confused that you cannot scroll the map with wasd
17:56:13  <frosch123> the two other games i play regulary do that
17:56:23  <LordAro> do those keys do anything else?
17:56:38  <frosch123> they map to random hotkeys dependin gon which window is open
17:56:47  <frosch123> i guess "d" is build depot or something
17:56:57  <LordAro> mm, probably not feasible to use wasd to scroll map then
17:57:27  <nielsm> D is destroy iirc
17:58:54  <nielsm> potential feature: multiple keyboard maps included by default, and switchable
17:59:14  <nielsm> "traditional" and "modern", and then maybe space for downloadable ones?
17:59:29  <nielsm> (I forget, does customization already exist?)
18:00:53  <frosch123> nielsm: yes, i remapped D and other stuff
18:01:00  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro dismissed a review for pull request #6932: Change: Gradually slow down aircraft speed on breakdown
18:01:05  <frosch123> destroy is rarely needed
18:01:22  <frosch123> usually ctrl-remove is good enough
18:06:41  <andythenorth> I use A and D a lot :D
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18:29:19  <Wolf01> o/
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18:31:34  <Wolf01> Fine, internet works... now I'm under attack...
18:34:40  <frosch123> by neapolitan hackers?
18:35:20  <Wolf01> Nah, it seem like a portscan from mozilla developers
18:37:33  <Heiki> they’re integrating OpenTTD into Firefox
18:38:07  <Wolf01> HA! another reason to stay with 58
18:38:37  <Wolf01> I have like 80 rss bookmarks
18:39:53  <Eddi|zuHause> <nielsm> not really, no, they'll just hang out on their next stop until it's their timetables departure <-- i think it's worse than that. they all ignore the timetable until they arrive at the first station in the list, then they clog that up for the later ones that intended to go first
18:42:53  <nielsm> hm you might be right
18:43:08  <nielsm> the timetable distribution feature could be improved a lot in general
18:43:23  <andythenorth> there's a distribution feature?
18:43:26  <andythenorth> I never got it to work
18:43:30  <andythenorth> it's a myth :P
18:43:36  <nielsm> it kinda works but it's so annoying
18:44:51  <LordAro> wasn't there a decent looking patch (queue) a few months back that rewrote it? was it ic111 or whatever their nick was?
18:45:20  <Eddi|zuHause> by "recent" you mean in development since 5 years ago?
18:46:32  <Eddi|zuHause> or did you mean that one?
18:46:33  <LordAro> yes
18:46:45  <LordAro> no, not that onr
18:48:36  <andythenorth> does it just remove timetables? o_O
18:50:52  <Eddi|zuHause> there have been a few timetable rewrites over time, but you probably meant this one?
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