Log for #openttd on 3rd November 2018:
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07:42:27  <andythenorth> moin
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09:18:04  <TrueBrain> hi andythenorth
09:18:22  <andythenorth> yo TB
09:19:54  <nielsm> woo new speed record on danish railways!
09:28:33  <TrueBrain> time to try out Digital Ocean .. see what their services is about :)
09:37:04  <andythenorth> we use them for something
09:37:18  <andythenorth> commodity cloud hosts probly
09:39:14  <TrueBrain> they seem to be not as expensive as other cloud operators; still, these things are expensive (in contrast to a dedicated machine); but I guess that makes sense
09:39:53  <andythenorth> we mostly use Rackspace cloud
09:40:09  <andythenorth> but Rackspace are now so disinterested in commodity cloud, it's a joke
09:40:30  <andythenorth> their support responses are basically "oh the host for your VMs went away?  GTFO"
09:40:54  <andythenorth> "Would you like to pay us to talk to you about managed cloud?"
09:41:21  <andythenorth> err no, we already pay 5% of our total turnover just to provide VMs thatnks
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09:49:32  <Wolf01> o/
09:51:59  <andythenorth> yo
10:02:04  <andythenorth> 80%
10:12:39  <nielsm> hm, have anyone made a "tile hacker" debug tool patch before? basically picking any tile and changing the raw map array data for it
10:12:56  <andythenorth> not me :)
10:13:29  <LordAro> peter1138 probably has a patch for it
10:14:30  <TrueBrain> nielsm: I can honestly say I have never seen that request even come by :)
10:14:38  <andythenorth> should I do variable running costs for trains?
10:14:52  <andythenorth> heavier load = more cost
10:15:20  <nielsm> running costs shooting up as the model gets older and finding spare parts becomes harder
10:15:58  <nielsm> as a simulation of fuel/energy costs of pulling a heavier load? as long as it's not excessive sounds good
10:16:12  <andythenorth> I'll probably skip it tbh :)
10:16:26  <andythenorth> Pikka has done it before and I don't know if he is convinced
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10:48:27  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on issue #6676: Helicopters can be stopped while descending
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11:20:12  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on issue #6676: Helicopters can be stopped while descending
11:53:20  <nielsm> I assume any attempt at modifying the airport state machines will produce a massive extra job of writing savegame fixer-uppers
11:59:17  <Wolf01> I still think the running costs should be based on number and colour of pixels
11:59:42  <Wolf01> Even other stats should be based on that
11:59:56  <Wolf01> andythenorth proposed red = more fast
12:01:09  <nielsm> changing company colour scheme should absolutely also cost money then
12:01:16  <nielsm> all the repainting is costly
12:01:20  <Wolf01> Yes
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12:25:30  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh opened pull request #6962: Fix #6676: Prevent helicoptors from stopping in midair during landing
12:33:32  <nielsm>   <- I very much want to close this as "not a bug", since the installer is written to only do system-global installations (writes a bunch of things to HKLM regardless of what dir you install to)
12:33:52  <nielsm> any opposition?
12:35:03  <andythenorth> I have no knowledge :P
12:36:16  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh updated pull request #6962: Fix #6676: Prevent helicopters from stopping in midair during landing
12:36:22  * nielsm fixes typo
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13:45:38  * andythenorth has running cost headache
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14:54:31  * andythenorth wonders about scaling run cost by power * max speed
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14:56:31  <nielsm> it might work, but should probably also take technology and era into account
14:57:16  <nielsm> a steam engine from 1890 and a diesel-electric from 1990 with identical stats on paper are probably going to have wildly different running costs
15:00:47  <nielsm> maybe having a curve of "expected standard stats" over time (by engine introduction year) and scale costs by deviation from that
15:02:20  <andythenorth> due to game balance, running costs increase over time
15:02:41  <andythenorth> I suspect I'm rendering all progression irrelevant here
15:02:43  <nielsm> how about purchase costs dropping somewhat from introduction to somewhere one-third the way to obsolesence?
15:02:58  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] frosch123 requested changes for pull request #6867: 16 cargo types in and out for industries
15:03:05  <andythenorth> ooh
15:03:06  <nielsm> so purchasing the latest and greatest costs more than getting the mass produced model from last year
15:06:51  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on pull request #6867: 16 cargo types in and out for industries
15:12:07  <nielsm> I hope my birds will let me do some coding right now, they occasionally get jealous of the keyboard getting all the scritches
15:14:11  <TrueBrain> nothing a shotgun cannot fix
15:15:41  <andythenorth> hmm
15:15:54  <andythenorth> hp * speed doesn't scale how I want
15:16:02  <andythenorth> sometimes I wonder about just setting run costs manually :P
15:16:24  <andythenorth> instead of trying to devise an algorithm that comes out matching my subjective goals :P
15:17:49  <frosch123> random() :)
15:20:28  <frosch123> ((hp * (eletric ? 0.5 : 1))^2 + speed^2) * (0.75 + 0.5*random)
15:21:54  <nielsm> vector length of (power, speed)
15:23:28  <nielsm> frosch123, DisableGrf() wants a StringID, are there any existing that might be usable? :(
15:24:18  <frosch123> STR_NEWGRF_ERROR_INVALID_ID with a bit stretch :)
15:24:31  <nielsm> also every other similar error condition in newindustries loading uses grfmsg
15:24:32  <andythenorth> frosch123: somewhat :P
15:25:29  <frosch123> nielsm: grfmsg means "ottd dev fault". disablegrf means "grf dev fault" :)
15:26:42  <nielsm>
15:26:47  <nielsm> plenty of pre-existing wrong uses then
15:27:37  <frosch123> andythenorth: you can use "(intro_year + power*7) % 10" as random
15:28:43  <andythenorth> o_O
15:29:06  <frosch123> nielsm: yes, history. stuff shifted from "grfs are developed for ttdp, and ottd somehow tries to run them" to "grfs are developed for ottd, and ottd has to hell-a-lot catch up on grf error reporting"
15:29:55  <frosch123> there was a time inbetween where a lot of grfs where wrong, and noone noticed since noone used ttdp and ottd just ignored errors
15:31:23  <frosch123> andythenorth: "random" is the same as "too complex to see a pattern"
15:32:12  <frosch123> if you find a pattern, add a more properties with other prime factors to the sum
15:32:42  <nielsm> meh going to add this then
15:32:42  <nielsm> STR_NEWGRF_ERROR_PROPERTY_OUT_OF_RANGE                          :Property value out of range in sprite {0:HEX}: Property={1:HEX}, value={2:NUM}, minimum={3:NUM}, maximum={4:NUM}
15:32:58  <nielsm> ah sprite number should be decimal
16:09:32  <nielsm> hmm looks slightly wrong:
16:14:05  <frosch123> i think you cannot add arbitrary parameters
16:14:10  <frosch123> only what is in GRFError
16:15:40  <frosch123> SetDParam(4 + i, c->error->param_value[i]);
16:15:49  <frosch123> integers are in param 4 and 5
16:16:47  <frosch123> the first one is already the sprite number
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16:27:11  <andythenorth> hmmm
16:27:18  <andythenorth> the principal problem with running costs is the scale
16:27:28  <andythenorth> the high end is 10000hp and 200mph
16:27:38  <andythenorth> but most trains are bunched at the low end
16:27:42  <andythenorth> so their costs bunch
16:28:25  <nielsm> that's part of why you probably need to make introduction year part of the calculation in some way
16:28:58  <andythenorth> it already is :)
16:29:18  <andythenorth> the run cost factor is a prop limited to 255
16:29:30  <andythenorth> most of the trains have values at 100 or less :P
16:31:05  <frosch123> add a sqrt() to stretch the bottom and compress the top
16:31:40  <andythenorth> that's an interesting idea
16:32:06  <andythenorth> I am considering resetting the base cost factor
16:32:09  <frosch123> or ln() if sqrt() is not enough
16:32:11  <andythenorth> it's default at the moment
16:32:25  <nielsm> I tried making a costs rebalance mod for transport fever at a point, but never managed to make purchase and running cost formulas I was satisfied with
16:33:16  <frosch123> is transport fever like ottd? as in: there is only one metric (money) and it behaves exponentially
16:34:15  <nielsm> very much like
16:35:53  <nielsm> (what keeps me from playing it is that the industry chains feel lifeless, everything is predictable and scale in boring ways, and then there's the poor performance of the game engine)
16:36:16  <nielsm> (also the moddability is too static to allow for truly interesting things)
16:36:56  <andythenorth> hmm 10000hp is a lot :P
16:36:58  <Wolf01> The problem with TF is that it seem you only can multiply the base values, but it has a working daylenght mod :P
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16:39:02  <nielsm> TF also has no real running infrastructure costs at all
16:39:16  <nielsm> which means electrified rail is a total no-brainer
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16:43:08  <Wolf01> <nielsm> TF also has no real running infrastructure costs at all <- but all the construction costs are completely fucked up
16:43:08  <Wolf01> Even a passenger coach costs 10 times the engine
16:43:45  <nielsm> yeah that's one of the isses I had and why I tried making that rebalance mod
16:44:09  <Wolf01> I don't know if that was the way they wanted to balance the economy
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16:45:27  <Wolf01> Also vehicles scale up with capacity and speed but clearly it's not the right way, the specs are completely wrong, like a 4 passengers car which can carry 12 passengers
16:46:26  <nielsm> all the capacities specified in their definitions are 4x the in-game value
16:46:31  <nielsm> for some reason
16:47:14  <nielsm> perhaps that their simulation would bog down too early if there were 4x the number of agents in play
16:47:41  <nielsm> so they divide the capacities by 4 on loading the game data
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16:49:20  <Wolf01> Meh, ISP is breaking balls...
16:49:52  <Wolf01> BTW, that's why I would like to play it only to build things and decorate instead of caring about making profitable routes
16:51:03  <nielsm> I quite like their track building tools and options yes
16:51:47  <nielsm> could use some better tools to control height/depth and grades, but overall they're doing that part right
16:53:14  <nielsm> (compared, cities:skylines is doing it wrong by using splines rather than circle arcs for curved roads/tracks)
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17:25:27  <andythenorth> hmmm
17:25:27  <andythenorth> maybe I should try and repro the road vehicle depot-finding bug
17:25:39  <andythenorth> then I could maybe play with breakdowns on
17:26:28  <andythenorth> probably I'm the only player using RVs?
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17:29:33  <frosch123> or the only player using automatic servicing
17:30:56  <andythenorth> I switched to service-by-order, then I turned breakdowns off
17:31:08  <andythenorth> endless "vehicle can't find route to depot" stuff
17:31:13  <andythenorth> but I never repro-ed it reliably
17:31:22  <andythenorth> that was probly 10 years ago :P
17:31:32  <Wolf01> Wtf, learn to build roads properly :P
17:31:49  <andythenorth> vehicle drives past depot
17:32:15  <andythenorth> if I turn breakdowns on, I could actually care about reliability in Horse
17:32:31  <nielsm> frosch123 has there ever been a suggestion to print (selected categories of) debug messages to the in-game console?
17:32:51  <nielsm> so e.g. grf debug messages could be visible to more people
17:33:14  <nielsm> it should probably be a command to enable it or such
17:33:30  <frosch123> yes, someone suggested to redirect DEBUG to the console
17:33:48  <frosch123> but DEBUG  can be quite a lot
17:33:56  <andythenorth> it's remarkable the places we build stuff
17:35:26  <nielsm> dwarf fortress style "we just chiseled tracks into the ground rock"
17:38:01  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh updated pull request #6867: 16 cargo types in and out for industries
17:38:14  <Wolf01> Bye
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17:55:33  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh updated pull request #6867: 16 cargo types in and out for industries
17:58:02  <nielsm> frosch123: that should be everything :)
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18:09:48  <frosch123> <- you aligned all but one :p
18:10:04  <nielsm> gah
18:12:23  <nielsm> I'll squash all the changes to the pretty commits a bit later
18:13:39  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] frosch123 commented on pull request #6867: 16 cargo types in and out for industries
18:13:51  <frosch123> found some obiwans
18:17:32  <nielsm>  <--- should move this to the newgrf additions commit for the cleanup too
18:19:36  <nielsm> but moving a change from one commit to another is annoying :(
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18:38:46  <frosch123> nielsm: GRFError does not work with string literals in "data"
18:39:07  <frosch123> it does a free in ~GRFError
18:39:18  <nielsm> ugh
18:39:26  <frosch123> so you need some stredup or so
18:39:26  <nielsm> so strdup it >_>
18:39:41  <frosch123> i think "strdup" is not allowed
18:39:43  <nielsm> may as well format it too in that case, with more info
18:39:45  <nielsm> yes
18:42:46  <nielsm> okay no formatting, then I need to set up buffers and other annoying things
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18:50:30  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh updated pull request #6867: 16 cargo types in and out for industries
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19:00:13  <frosch123> nielsm: no more comments from me
19:01:30  <nielsm> cool, I'll make a squash later then
19:15:45  <andythenorth> 👍
19:45:12  <nielsm> gah clicked rebuild all instead of normal build
19:45:23  <nielsm> not that it matters much when strings.h has changed :P
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20:01:54  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh updated pull request #6867: 16 cargo types in and out for industries
20:02:36  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh dismissed a review for pull request #6867: 16 cargo types in and out for industries
20:07:27  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc updated pull request #6949: Eliminate ICU for OSX
20:08:53  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc commented on pull request #6949: Eliminate ICU for OSX
20:10:22  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc commented on pull request #6949: Eliminate ICU for OSX
20:11:28  <michi_cc> LordAro: Better now? ^^ :)
20:24:13  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] frosch123 approved pull request #6867: 16 cargo types in and out for industries
20:24:23  <nielsm> w00t
20:24:38  <nielsm> andythenorth let's throw a party tomorrow
20:24:58  <frosch123> nml next :)
20:25:02  <nielsm> :P
20:25:26  <nielsm> there's also the houses accepts patch
20:25:43  <nielsm> but it should probably have a bit more error handling
20:31:01  <andythenorth> wow
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20:31:55  <andythenorth> now I just need a reliable build :D
20:32:29  <andythenorth> this stack of patches is a bit ugly :P
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20:43:57  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh merged pull request #6867: 16 cargo types in and out for industries
20:44:47  <glx> maybe I could force merge #6960
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20:54:07  <andythenorth> not many left
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21:14:32  <andythenorth> hmm
21:14:43  <andythenorth> I could do with wagon running costs in different range to engines :P
21:16:42  <andythenorth> I jacked up running cost base to get a good range for engines
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21:17:00  <andythenorth> now I don't have enough fine grain control over wagons :P
21:18:35  <andythenorth> hmm maybe I can cheart
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21:48:16  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh updated pull request #6872: Add: Houses can accept up to 16 different cargo types via NewGRF
22:06:13  <andythenorth> oof
22:06:28  <andythenorth> this running cost thing so nearly works :(
22:06:32  <andythenorth> but the top end is now too low :(
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22:46:59  <andythenorth> I can't define arbitrary running cost bases?
22:47:01  <andythenorth> o_O
22:47:11  <andythenorth> so that I can scale them differently?
22:51:30  <frosch123> runninc cost bases are for basecost-mods
22:51:47  <frosch123> you have 15bit price multiplier range, should be enough
22:52:07  <frosch123> which engine cost 32768 times more than a wagon?
22:53:11  <frosch123> wait, running cost? why do wagons have running costs?
22:53:36  <frosch123> but still, 32k is enough even for running cost
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22:59:28  <frosch123> you are lucky, you missed my answer :)
23:03:19  <andythenorth> oof
23:03:28  <andythenorth> I went past the microwave
23:03:38  <andythenorth> which blocks the wifi :P
23:04:08  <frosch123> probably aliens contacting you
23:04:47  <andythenorth> or the faraday cage :P
23:05:30  <andythenorth> wait, running cost factor is only 0-255 no?
23:06:39  <frosch123> depends whther you put it into "properties" or "graphics" :p
23:06:48  <frosch123> 8bit property, 15bit callback
23:07:04  <andythenorth> ooh
23:07:10  <andythenorth> that would avoid some evil I'm doing
23:07:27  <andythenorth> currently I'm abusing electric base cost
23:07:29  <andythenorth> which is a bad idea
23:11:58  <andythenorth> let's see
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23:21:56  <nielsm> I tried making a new title screen game:
23:22:27  <nielsm> well, it's missing ships
23:25:53  <frosch123> at least there is a toy factory
23:26:19  <nielsm>
23:26:21  <nielsm> enjoy
23:38:06  * LordAro has a soft spot for toyland
23:38:30  <LordAro> i used to play mad dog's toyshop(?) in ttd a lot when i was much younger
23:39:07  <nielsm> toyland is really hard mode, just because there's so few vehicle models and they're all worse than those in the normal climates
23:39:32  <LordAro> yeah, i don't think i ever got further than the 4th train?
23:39:44  <LordAro> (lost interest or otherwise)

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