Log for #openttd on 4th November 2018:
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07:28:13  <andythenorth> moin
07:39:52  <andythenorth> can't have negative running costs?
07:52:34  * andythenorth had an idea for caboose wagons that are more than just eye candy :P 
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08:50:48  <TrueBrain> negative running cost .. .you are weird :P
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09:11:53  * andythenorth no bites
09:17:12  <TrueBrain> how about bytes?
09:19:48  <andythenorth> nibbles?
09:23:48  <TrueBrain> that moment that GitHub introduced something new, you are signed up for the beta program, but not accepted yet, and it is exactly what you need/want ... are you going to spend time to duplicate the functionality, or do you wait ...
09:23:50  <TrueBrain> such questions
09:28:18  <andythenorth> how much you need it?
09:28:26  * andythenorth would always wait :P
09:28:33  <andythenorth> no shortage of fun other things to do
09:28:34  <TrueBrain> it removes Jenkins from the whole bla
09:28:49  <andythenorth> such Jenkins
09:28:51  <TrueBrain> but no clue if waiting it 1 month, or 1 year :P
09:28:53  <andythenorth> how I will miss him
09:45:08  <TrueBrain> funny, SemVer2 defines everything behind the major.minor.patch as prerelease
09:45:12  <TrueBrain> which is totally fine ofc
09:45:28  <TrueBrain> but this always makes it a bit difficult if you use 'git describe' to describe how far away from a tag you are
09:45:35  <TrueBrain> as that is postrelease, not pre :P
09:46:47  <andythenorth> o_O
09:46:49  <nielsm> I guess you're supposed to bump the major/minor/patch right after a release then? so you always indicate what the next version will be
09:47:05  <TrueBrain> but than you need tooling that understands this 'bump' version
09:47:09  <TrueBrain> as git won't have that information
09:47:18  <TrueBrain> and depending on the content of a repository, this information is in different places
09:47:20  <nielsm> initially bump patch by 1, and when you do a breaking change you bump minor or major and reset the remaining
09:47:42  <TrueBrain> I wish git could have 'forseen' tags :D
09:52:14  <andythenorth> all we need is predicting the future
09:52:17  <andythenorth> simples
09:52:40  <TrueBrain> you just want one way to define the 'next version', independing on the content of the repository
09:52:43  <TrueBrain> which is not trivial
09:53:04  <TrueBrain> or you need to dedicate a single file to contain that content
09:56:59  <TrueBrain> <- did I type over the URL correctly?
09:57:05  <TrueBrain> (my clipboard still doesnt work :P)
09:59:17  <nielsm> 404
09:59:49  <TrueBrain> bah
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10:00:57  <TrueBrain> why is this channel still registered only?
10:01:55  <TrueBrain>
10:02:00  <TrueBrain> @whoami
10:02:00  <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: TrueBrain
10:02:02  <TrueBrain> @mode -R
10:02:02  *** DorpsGek sets mode: -R 
10:02:23  <TrueBrain> when are we moving to Slack? :P
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10:04:23  <andythenorth> oof
10:04:34  <andythenorth> dunno why I am anti Slack
10:04:38  <andythenorth> everyone I know uses it
10:05:12  <andythenorth> I'm waiting to be told the answer: isn't Discord just better?
10:05:14  <andythenorth> o_O
10:05:36  <TrueBrain> Discord is being a bit weird .. seems to want to become the next Steam ..
10:05:41  <TrueBrain> and I find it really hard there to follow any conversation
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10:09:40  <TrueBrain> I wonder what would happen if we say: the new BaNaNaS only publishes files from a GitHub repository
10:10:07  <TrueBrain> absolute panic, I am afraid :P
10:10:36  <andythenorth> o_O
10:10:44  <andythenorth> works for me :P
10:11:13  <TrueBrain> it is more in character of OpenTTD's Open Source ideology ofc
10:11:25  <TrueBrain> and would allow to make a nice auto-release around it
10:11:41  <TrueBrain> I also have been thinking we can use the new 'pypi' as used by Python
10:11:56  <TrueBrain> as that basically has everything we are looking for, as far as I can tell
10:12:52  <TrueBrain> either way, I am slowly trying to word why I am having a bit of a hard time cleaning up the OpenTTD infrastructure
10:13:10  <TrueBrain> it is not only huge, there is also a lot of interaction between components which have 'organicaly grown'
10:14:13  <andythenorth> usual amount of mess? o_O
10:14:41  <andythenorth> unclear boundaries between proper domains?
10:14:45  <andythenorth> string
10:14:46  <andythenorth> stuff and things
10:15:02  <TrueBrain> yup; how things were done 15 years ago :P
10:15:15  <TrueBrain> over the years I did try to split away services I could
10:15:21  <TrueBrain> but some I never managed to untangle
10:15:38  <TrueBrain> services calling internal services back then was a big no-no
10:15:41  <TrueBrain> now it is the most common thing ever
10:15:55  <TrueBrain> in result, the webserver running also runs most other domains, as there is crosstalk :P
10:17:08  <TrueBrain> and I cannot find a clean path to do a nice migration. Seems it needs more of a big-bang than I would like
10:17:56  <TrueBrain> I know how I want the result to look .. just the road to it .. ugh ..
10:18:01  <andythenorth>
10:18:04  <TrueBrain> anyway, any feedback on the above document is very welcome :)
10:22:50  <andythenorth> 403 :P
10:23:07  <TrueBrain> oops
10:23:08  <TrueBrain> reload
10:23:30  <andythenorth> ok
10:26:38  <nielsm> does the CI pipeline protect sufficiently against malicious changes to makefile, strgen, etc?
10:27:06  <TrueBrain> no, as that sadly is nearly impossible
10:27:24  <TrueBrain> well, not in the sense that it is validated or something
10:27:27  <TrueBrain> it is simply fenced
10:27:34  <TrueBrain> that is why there is so much Docker image talk
10:27:43  <TrueBrain> and in the CI, if an image runs more than N minutes, it is killed
10:27:47  <TrueBrain> it has no internet connection
10:27:48  <TrueBrain> etc
10:27:54  <TrueBrain> "best effort"
10:28:22  <TrueBrain> that is also why the preview is a whitelist command; which ever developer triggers a preview, really should be sure there is nothing weird going on :)
10:29:29  <TrueBrain> but very explcitly, the CI doesn't publish anything
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10:30:47  <Wolf01> o/
10:31:00  <Wolf01> Let's see if the new router works better
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10:35:15  <TrueBrain> nielsm: added some bla about that part :)
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11:12:04  <Wolf01> Mmmh, changing the timezone requires reboot
11:14:29  <TrueBrain> right .. I tried to see which service I could use as proof-of-concept for the above ...
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11:14:51  <TrueBrain> MS + MSU is integrated in the main website. The correct solution is to split those services in an API based system, instead of via MySQL
11:15:07  <TrueBrain> ottd_content is heavily integrated with too many subservices to count .. ugh
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11:15:37  <TrueBrain> BaNaNaS is most decoupled; it just needs to know which user is logged in, access to MySQL, and access to a file storage to write files
11:16:08  <TrueBrain> main website is decoupled a lot; it can use local files or can poll a http for its information
11:16:15  <TrueBrain> I years ago already started to decouple that
11:16:23  <TrueBrain> so I guess the main website is the primary candidate ..
11:16:32  <TrueBrain> has some minor MySQL queries it needs
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11:16:44  <TrueBrain> even there, a rewrite could be faster than trying to move it ..
11:17:00  <TrueBrain> le sigh
11:18:01  <andythenorth> TrueBrain: isn't frosch solving bananas?
11:18:02  <andythenorth> alone?
11:18:15  <TrueBrain> with no ETA, yes
11:18:19  <andythenorth> main website
11:18:21  <TrueBrain> (which is totally fine btw)
11:18:35  <andythenorth> main website 1:1 reimplmentation?  No content or style changes?
11:18:58  <TrueBrain> I considered it
11:19:04  <TrueBrain> I even once did that like a year ago
11:19:11  <TrueBrain> so I guess that is the best thing to pick up
11:19:24  <andythenorth> ideally it would be in a safe place so people like me could modify it
11:19:28  <andythenorth> that might even be true now
11:19:34  <andythenorth> but I have NFI how I'd start :P
11:19:46  <TrueBrain> I was thinking of making it a fully static website
11:19:52  <andythenorth> I've dug around the web repos before, but it all looks strung together
11:19:55  <TrueBrain> so if you have a blog to post, make a commit in the repository for it
11:20:02  <andythenorth> I'm a big fan of static web content
11:20:10  <TrueBrain> the only dynamic part is the server-listing
11:20:17  <andythenorth> all my newgrf docs are static, compile-once
11:20:20  <TrueBrain> so I was wondering if we should just make that javascript-only
11:20:26  <andythenorth> seems reasonable
11:20:43  <TrueBrain> currently it is 'static' (server-side generated)
11:20:58  <andythenorth> seems obvious candidate for XHR?
11:21:18  <TrueBrain> I like that the website is without javascript tbh
11:21:28  <andythenorth> node on the server :P
11:21:29  <andythenorth> ugh
11:21:32  <TrueBrain> and the top banner is a bit of an issue
11:21:48  <TrueBrain> that will always be dynamic, I guess
11:22:07  <andythenorth> edge side includes? :P
11:22:43  <TrueBrain> I guess what I can do, is setup a small API in the old infrastructure
11:22:49  <TrueBrain> which gives both the server listing as the downloads
11:23:07  <TrueBrain> make the new website a very simple server-side static-page webserver
11:23:25  <TrueBrain> (so do the API calls on the server, instead on the client)
11:23:39  <TrueBrain> that decouples it a bit more
11:23:55  <andythenorth> the less we have to pick a framework, the happier I would be
11:24:18  <TrueBrain> I really really want to avoid Django or something :P
11:24:25  <andythenorth> is Apache + a WSGI server too simple?
11:24:27  <TrueBrain> I was thinking aiohttp
11:24:57  <TrueBrain> well, it will run in kubernetes, so it will be nginx-loadbalancer, with for example aiohttp (via http)
11:25:09  <TrueBrain> that scales stupid-well
11:25:12  <andythenorth> aiohttp looks simple at first glance
11:25:17  <TrueBrain> possibly a memcache or redis for caching
11:25:32  <TrueBrain> Python3.6 async ftw .. makes coding so much easier
11:25:35  <andythenorth> I have a makefile that generates static html pages from templated source :P
11:25:41  <TrueBrain> just a bit slower
11:25:49  <TrueBrain> that is the other solution
11:25:58  <TrueBrain> snapshot the website every 5 minutes or so
11:26:01  <TrueBrain> from dynamic information
11:26:22  <andythenorth> and just say 'server list updated every 5 mins'?
11:26:31  <TrueBrain> that is already what happens
11:26:37  <TrueBrain> as the server list is EXPENSIVE to generate :P
11:26:41  <andythenorth> I don't object to JS personally, except obviously JS is horrible
11:26:48  <andythenorth> it's pretty much universal
11:27:09  <andythenorth> it's also horrible to write, and I don't even want to think about the opsec implications of it :P
11:27:16  <TrueBrain> what is also 'hot', that if you don't have javascript, you are piped through a system that generates the page for you
11:27:26  <andythenorth> fallback
11:27:47  <andythenorth> let me know if you want me to write any html :P
11:28:04  <TrueBrain> you just said to copy/paste the current :P
11:28:10  <andythenorth> even better
11:28:17  <TrueBrain> guess it is a matter of picking what method to use
11:30:00  <LordAro> TrueBrain: i'd like to look over your suggestions, but am busy until this evening :(
11:30:16  <TrueBrain> LordAro: I welcome any feedback :)
11:30:27  <TrueBrain> it is not like I can execute what I wrote in a day, so no worries ;)
11:34:19  <LordAro> ture enough :)
11:38:26  <LordAro> ture.
11:38:28  <LordAro> yes.
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11:43:20  <andythenorth> I should probably keep running costs simple eh, no 'cost more as engine gets older' stuff :P
11:46:29  <Wolf01> andythenorth: this image is the perfect reply:
11:47:36  <andythenorth> oops
11:47:43  <andythenorth> just poured coffee into my laptop keyboard
11:48:12  <Wolf01> Time to buy a new one
11:48:14  <andythenorth> nothing to do with the image :P
11:48:34  <andythenorth> yup, keyboard doesn't work anyway, again
11:48:35  <Wolf01> *the coffee, not the laptop
11:48:40  <andythenorth> so time to buy yet another new mac
11:48:44  <andythenorth> keys last about 60 days
11:48:51  <andythenorth> then have to buy a new computer from Apple
11:49:49  <andythenorth> gotta keep the share price up by shipping defective computers
11:50:22  <Wolf01> They create a problem and sell the solution
11:51:35  <andythenorth> there's no cost to Apple from it
11:51:50  <andythenorth> Mac sales numbers continue same whether they work  or not
11:51:52  <andythenorth> weird
11:52:18  * andythenorth back to costs
11:57:02  <TrueBrain>
11:57:06  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: did I summarize that correct?
11:59:16  * andythenorth looking
11:59:39  <andythenorth> do we need multi-lingual support in the website?
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12:00:01  <TrueBrain> I do think so
12:00:03  <TrueBrain> not now
12:00:10  <TrueBrain> but I think we needed that 10 years ago
12:00:14  <andythenorth> ok
12:00:22  <andythenorth> it's just extra....stuff :P
12:00:23  <TrueBrain> there are countries where they speak very little English
12:00:46  <Wolf01> So, even with this router it disconnects
12:01:31  <andythenorth> TrueBrain: looks about right to me
12:01:43  <TrueBrain> I tackled things easier by just redirecting to the old server :P
12:01:48  <TrueBrain> like
12:01:58  <TrueBrain> solves creating an API or something NOW, rather than later
12:01:59  <andythenorth> I kind of ran into the weeds, thinking about how we'd store blog posts, dev descriptions etc
12:02:03  <andythenorth> but eh
12:02:12  <TrueBrain> how do you mean?
12:02:20  <andythenorth> whether they're html, json etc
12:02:27  <andythenorth> not an important issue now
12:02:30  <andythenorth> distraction
12:02:32  <TrueBrain> hmm
12:02:36  <TrueBrain> that is not a bad idea tbh
12:02:38  <TrueBrain> if we template anyway
12:02:42  <TrueBrain> just put these things in yaml files
12:02:46  <andythenorth> that sort of thing yes
12:02:48  <TrueBrain> easier to read/maintain etc
12:02:53  <TrueBrain> good point
12:03:02  <andythenorth> we want to be decouple from the html as far as possible
12:03:08  <andythenorth> blog posts are probably better as MD or RST
12:03:27  <TrueBrain> good point
12:03:31  <andythenorth> can't remember which one won but eh
12:03:39  <TrueBrain> MarkDown
12:04:00  <TrueBrain> those are also easy to edit via the GitHub interface
12:04:06  <andythenorth> oh yes they are :D
12:04:07  <andythenorth> good
12:04:08  <TrueBrain> so writing a blog post can be done from GitHub if you like :)
12:04:22  <TrueBrain> I think a blog post should be both a markdown and a yaml file or something .. we will see
12:04:29  <TrueBrain> (meta-data vs content)
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12:04:46  <andythenorth> so simple framework to deal with http stuff
12:04:55  <andythenorth> some publishing classes to handle different content types
12:05:13  <andythenorth> and either static compile (pull latest tag and compile every 5 minutes) or use the framework
12:05:33  <andythenorth> presumably you have some magic thing for polling for new tags?
12:05:47  <TrueBrain> no no, I think you mix two things now :)
12:05:57  <TrueBrain> the repository will compile into a Docker image
12:06:01  <TrueBrain> which runs in the infrastructure
12:06:05  <andythenorth> ok
12:06:08  <TrueBrain> inside that Docker image you have 2 choices:
12:06:15  <TrueBrain> either JiT create the content
12:06:19  <TrueBrain> or create it every N minutes
12:06:34  <andythenorth> ok
12:06:42  <TrueBrain> (so either something like Flask, ..., or nginx + a script that does the templating)
12:06:46  <andythenorth> yes
12:06:58  <TrueBrain> a new blog posts means a new docker image means a new deployment
12:07:07  <TrueBrain> which is exactly what you want btw .. as that allows rolling back etc :)
12:07:20  <andythenorth> JiT or N minutes are both fine with me, it really depends what framework is used, no point fighting the framework to make it do opposite of what it's designed for :)
12:08:14  <TrueBrain> both are valid approaches and have their pros/cons
12:08:24  <TrueBrain> mainly depends for what you optimize
12:10:14  <frosch123> nielsm: <- i updated the specs last night, do you want to double-check?
12:12:53  <nielsm> should probably add some OTTD 1.9 version marks and not-ttdpatch marks to the new features, e.g. on
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12:18:27  <nielsm> <-- technically 0A..0C now also take signed acceptance rates
12:19:00  <nielsm> and there is an accidental č in "ačceptance"
12:19:46  <nielsm> and missing space after the not-patch icon for prop 12 new flag
12:23:40  <frosch123> nielsm: you can login there with your tt-forums account
12:23:46  <nielsm> oh
12:25:31  <nielsm> if I could remember what password I used there
12:25:33  <nielsm> >_>
12:25:44  <nielsm> should add it to my password manager
12:25:55  <frosch123> didn't you just post a few days ago? :p
12:26:05  <nielsm> cookie
12:26:11  <frosch123> 12 year old cookie?
12:26:31  <nielsm> nah more like 10-11 months old
12:30:56  <nielsm> well, turns out I can't sign in to the wiki after changing forums password, "Auto-creation of a local account failed: Automatic account creation is not allowed. "
12:31:22  <frosch123> orudge: ^^ any idea?
12:32:21  <andythenorth> I see that some times
12:32:30  <andythenorth> I don't know what causes it to get fixed though
12:32:38  <andythenorth> I was locked out of wiki for several years
12:32:41  <andythenorth> then I wasn't
12:35:50  <frosch123> nielsm: 0A..0C can't be negative. that only works for 13
12:36:19  <frosch123> and i think we shouldn't change that
12:37:48  <nielsm> agree it could break old things
12:38:03  <nielsm> I just remembered it as blindly loading in the bytes
12:38:21  <frosch123> currently there is a Clamp in the code, so i would expect some grfs to set 0xFF to make it maximum accepting :p
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12:59:06  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: after some thinking, it is only the download banner that is left as 'dynamic'. So generating static files every N minutes is much less work I guess .. still .. not sure which option is best :D
13:00:10  <andythenorth> it really depends on framework
13:00:24  <andythenorth> having a makefile spit out static assets to filesystem is ez, but we have to write one to do it
13:00:32  <TrueBrain> if you generate the static files on start of the Docker, and than every N minutes the main.html .. that sounds easiest
13:00:50  <TrueBrain> or even during building of the Docker
13:00:51  <andythenorth> if we pick a framework that has a request object and templating built in
13:01:00  <andythenorth> then that's ez too, but frameworks go out of fashion
13:01:07  <andythenorth> make never does :P
13:01:07  <TrueBrain> yeah .. I think it is more: use a framework yes/no :P
13:01:12  <andythenorth> I prefer no
13:01:17  <TrueBrain> as you really dont need one for this
13:01:25  <TrueBrain> you just need some minor server-side-include
13:01:27  <andythenorth> just use a http server, simple
13:01:37  <TrueBrain> meaning you can link it directly into nginx .. blazing fast :P
13:01:45  <andythenorth> easier for people to pick up and develop on too
13:01:48  <andythenorth> fewer deps
13:02:03  <TrueBrain> and if we put the dynamic parts in other services
13:02:06  <TrueBrain> those might need a framework
13:02:10  <TrueBrain> more complex
13:02:13  <TrueBrain> but they are in the minority
13:02:39  <andythenorth> this is the python file that generates FIRS docs
13:02:44  <andythenorth> most of it is just helper formatting crap
13:02:54  <andythenorth> the actual generation is the kind of thing can be written in 1 hour
13:02:59  <andythenorth> and re-written as needed
13:03:20  <andythenorth> does templates, txt, MD, graphviz, images
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13:04:02  <andythenorth> make calls that as needed
13:04:53  <andythenorth> frameworks tend to attract rewrites in framework-du-jour :P
13:06:28  <TrueBrain> I wonder if eints can do Markdown translations :P
13:06:31  <TrueBrain> :D
13:07:15  <TrueBrain> owh, I forgot we also have a list of languages that need support
13:07:51  <TrueBrain> does anyone ever noticed that the background image on the main site changes every day? :P
13:08:16  <frosch123> i think you told that before, i never verified
13:08:22  <TrueBrain> :D
13:08:40  <TrueBrain> having screenshots in the repository might also mean they will get updated once in a while, I guess
13:09:32  <frosch123> aww, no longer "latest user screenshot"?
13:09:50  <TrueBrain> I think there wil be
13:09:55  <TrueBrain> we can template that :)
13:10:06  <frosch123> i kind of liked the dynamic version number in that screenshot :)
13:10:20  <TrueBrain> I like how it has given so few complaints :P
13:10:29  <TrueBrain> it shows the same for .. 5 years  now? :P
13:10:33  <frosch123> 11
13:10:39  <frosch123> hmm, 9
13:10:43  <TrueBrain> owh, it is not even the 1.4 indeed
13:10:44  <TrueBrain> lol
13:11:04  <frosch123> i think it was 2008. so 10
13:11:09  <TrueBrain> :D
13:11:14  <TrueBrain> game still looks the same, so meh :D
13:13:05  <andythenorth> I should mail in some screenshots eh?
13:13:06  <andythenorth> :D
13:13:19  <andythenorth> I like how they're in no particular order
13:13:31  <andythenorth> 0.5.0 is after 0.4.8
13:13:35  <andythenorth> but 0.6.0 is before
13:13:35  <frosch123> there is a mail folder "unhandled screenshots" or so
13:13:38  <andythenorth> lol
13:14:12  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: order is sorted by mtime .. and someone changed a 0.4.8 screenshot between0.5 and 0.6 :P
13:14:44  <TrueBrain> what I like that all screenshots look the same .. I do not spot what has changed for that versions :D
13:15:05  <frosch123> look more closely
13:15:16  <frosch123> and you will find screenshots which are not from the version listed
13:15:29  <TrueBrain> those are the best!
13:16:06  <TrueBrain> I still like the cake :D
13:16:12  <TrueBrain> mostly as the screenshot on the cake is a lie :D
13:16:46  <frosch123> <- this screenshot is listed as 1.0, but is from before 0.6
13:17:59  <andythenorth> well it's nice when we delete them :)
13:18:06  * andythenorth likes scorched earth
13:18:37  <frosch123> but well, the distinguishing only works for older version, which added more visible features
13:19:02  <frosch123> though maybe andy can recognise firs versions
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13:20:03  <andythenorth> we used to be better at advertising :D
13:20:11  <andythenorth>
13:20:17  <andythenorth> who was the copywriter? o_O
13:21:00  <andythenorth> so nice :)
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13:22:07  <Brainspackle> ⁄!⧵ ΑΤΤΝ: Thiѕ cһaᥒnеl hɑs moved to irϲ.freeᥒodᥱ.nеt #/join /!⧹
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13:22:18  <TrueBrain> that is STILL going on? Lol
13:22:26  <frosch123> that was the reason for R :)
13:22:34  <TrueBrain> I assumed that would have gone away by now :(
13:22:36  <TrueBrain> @mode +R
13:22:36  *** DorpsGek sets mode: +R 
13:22:37  <TrueBrain> bah
13:22:43  <TrueBrain> move to Slack you say? :P
13:23:36  <andythenorth> because slack is not exploitable for mal?
13:23:46  <andythenorth> is it magic?
13:23:51  <TrueBrain> because on Slack they dont ask you to join freenode-shit
13:23:53  <TrueBrain> :P
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13:26:58  <andythenorth> oof so if I get slack
13:27:06  <andythenorth> I can't leave arbitrary channels
13:27:22  <andythenorth> we're considering switching work irc to slack
13:27:36  <andythenorth> but then I'll be required to be in work channels in evenings and weekends
13:27:42  <andythenorth> no way to leave
13:27:50  <TrueBrain> 2 accounts? :P
13:28:18  <andythenorth> ok so there's a teams thing
13:28:49  <Wolf01> I won't move to slack, discord, shitstuff in general :P
13:29:03  <andythenorth> you will in the end
13:29:04  <TrueBrain> they made an XKCD for you
13:29:34  <Wolf01> I will only if I want to keep contact with people, but do I really want it?
13:29:40  <andythenorth> that's the XKCD where nothing has won yet?
13:29:45  <andythenorth> I hate this shit
13:29:49  <andythenorth> I wish something would just win
13:30:01  <TrueBrain>
13:30:23  <andythenorth> yeah that's what we'll do at work
13:30:39  <andythenorth> slack<->irc bridge for some people
13:30:42  <TrueBrain> its sad, but that XKCD is really true
13:30:49  <TrueBrain> some people have a weird fetish with IRC
13:30:53  <andythenorth> it's just simple
13:31:01  <andythenorth> and there's no company involved
13:31:03  <Wolf01> :D
13:31:04  <andythenorth> it's nice
13:31:12  <TrueBrain> it is horrible
13:31:42  <TrueBrain> no history, no offline messaging, no images (lolz), doesnt integrate with anything (not really anyway), ..
13:31:44  <Wolf01> Because you don't have stickers, images, the emoticons are weird?
13:31:54  <TrueBrain> but mostly, I hate IRC for the lack of history
13:31:58  <TrueBrain> it kinda forces you to be always-on
13:32:08  <Wolf01> Starcraft classic chat was on irc, I joined that may times
13:32:15  <Wolf01> Many
13:32:38  <TrueBrain> I noticed that since I started to use non-IRC stuff, life got a bit easier :) People can message me while I am offline, I can answer when-ever
13:32:48  <TrueBrain> channels where people announce things I can read back on with ease
13:32:53  <TrueBrain> basically, an IRC bouncer done right
13:32:54  <andythenorth> TrueBrain: you just described all the upsides :P
13:33:00  <andythenorth> no history, no messaging, no images
13:33:14  <andythenorth> anyway, I am waiting for Slack to have definitively won
13:33:26  <TrueBrain> Discord is winning big for games
13:33:32  <andythenorth> it has yet to kill either Discord or Whatsapp
13:33:37  <TrueBrain> but that is mainly because of voice and game integration
13:33:49  <TrueBrain> Mattermost is getting ground in companies, because HipChat said: BYE
13:34:03  <TrueBrain> (Mattermost can be run on-premise)
13:34:06  <Wolf01> The big problem is that you *MUST* register even to read, that's not what I want
13:34:19  <TrueBrain> Wolf01: you do know this channel is running +R atm right? :P
13:34:28  <Wolf01> Yes, but it's not the default
13:34:42  <andythenorth> MM is new to me
13:34:43  <TrueBrain> till it is
13:35:08  <TrueBrain> Mattermost was clever; When HipChat announced they were stopping, they jumped on all threads and announced that they exist
13:35:15  <andythenorth> hmm
13:35:17  <TrueBrain> like GitLab did with GitHub takeover by Microsoft :P
13:35:20  <TrueBrain> very clever :)
13:35:25  <andythenorth> they're selling 'you can do compliance'?
13:35:31  <andythenorth> but I would rather Slack did the compliance
13:35:36  <andythenorth> they have a shareprice to maintain
13:35:45  <Wolf01> And I'm registered because I need (or might need) to use all the irc services, not just to read or join this chan
13:35:52  <andythenorth> whereas hiring and managing people to do compliance is frigging hard
13:35:56  <TrueBrain> in general, I am a fan of Cloud-based solutions; how ever annoying they might be, they are a lot more stable than any other
13:36:27  <TrueBrain> also the reason I am very happy with GitHub
13:36:34  <TrueBrain> nobody has to maintain it :)
13:36:42  <TrueBrain> (well, they do, but who cares about that :P)
13:36:58  <TrueBrain> that said, I am not using Slack myself atm; nobody to talk to :(
13:36:59  <andythenorth> github, that's who.  github cares :P
13:37:06  <andythenorth> TrueBrain should I get slack?
13:37:10  <andythenorth> we can 'chat' :P
13:37:20  <TrueBrain> on the new website we just publish Slack details
13:37:27  <TrueBrain> and see how long these old rats here survive :P
13:37:32  <TrueBrain> MWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
13:38:12  <Wolf01> I'll continue to join here until the server dies :P
13:38:30  <TrueBrain> you see IRC servers getting lower and lower volume of active people
13:38:38  <TrueBrain> I wonder when it comes to a value that is not sustainable
13:38:48  <TrueBrain> guess therew ill always be those few that want to be on IRC :D
13:38:58  <frosch123> sounds like "i installed irc and made it autostart, i do not know how to remove it, so i pretend it is intentional"
13:39:16  <TrueBrain> lol!
13:39:55  <Wolf01> TBH, I still use irc to join here, I have 3 chans on another server where I'm the only one active
13:41:29  <andythenorth> most of the people in this channel aren't reading it, right?
13:41:34  <nielsm> my dislike for discord, slack, etc. is that they're heavyweight protocols with heavyweight clients, and you aren't really free to make your own client (in part because the protocol is a moving target)
13:41:43  <andythenorth> they set up a bouncer in 2004 and forgot
13:42:00  <frosch123> andythenorth: we lost about 20 people last year
13:42:07  <nielsm> and they're centralized, it's not your server and it can't be your server
13:42:15  <frosch123> we used to be around 120-130 users, now there are 90-100
13:42:17  <nielsm> (despite discord abusing the "server" moiniker)
13:44:09  <Wolf01> frosch123, we really are like 20, we lost like 4 active people in the last year
13:44:21  <TrueBrain> oeh, what I also like about Slack / MatterMost, they have 'threads' .. where you can follow a conversation inside a channel, while other conversations happen
13:44:23  <TrueBrain> that is so nice
13:44:35  <andythenorth> sounds awful :)
13:44:44  <andythenorth> I like mixed threads, keeps my brain juicy
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13:45:13  <andythenorth> TrueBrain: so, can you make the Docker stuff, choose a http server, and make it serve a simple index.html on ?
13:45:19  <andythenorth> and put it in a repo
13:45:26  <andythenorth> and tell me how to build it :P
13:45:29  <TrueBrain> haha :D
13:45:29  <andythenorth> fanx
13:45:31  <TrueBrain> I am looking into it
13:52:34  <TrueBrain> Jekyll is used a lot for these kind of websites, it seems
13:52:59  <TrueBrain> but ... ruby ... brrr :P
13:53:35  <andythenorth> I'm not very interested in learning ruby :P
13:53:36  <andythenorth> tbh]
13:53:40  <TrueBrain> you dont need to
13:55:08  <andythenorth> uses Liquid
13:55:11  <andythenorth> Liquid looks fine
13:55:39  <andythenorth> such templating languages
13:55:46  <andythenorth> I only know Chameleon :P
13:55:57  <TrueBrain> I was first installing Slack
13:56:04  <TrueBrain> just ... BECAUSE I CAN
13:58:31  <andythenorth> no
13:58:33  <andythenorth> you can't
13:58:38  <andythenorth> NOT ALLOWED
13:58:52  <TrueBrain> and browseing github, how others do their frontpage
13:58:56  <TrueBrain> it is amazing what you find
13:58:59  <TrueBrain> lot of Ruby stuff
13:59:06  <TrueBrain> lot of npm stuff
13:59:13  <andythenorth> jekyll looks remarkably like a finished version of how I build stuff
13:59:22  <andythenorth> newgrf docs, and internal work docs
14:01:08  <andythenorth> hmm
14:01:23  <TrueBrain> it looks pretty okay tbh
14:01:27  <andythenorth> I could scale vehicle purchase costs by game start date
14:02:05  <TrueBrain> it is simple, to the point, nothing more than needed
14:02:28  <TrueBrain> I just have no clue how to do the download banner with it :D
14:02:31  <andythenorth> I am +/-0 on it
14:02:41  <andythenorth> I am reading about Pelican
14:03:02  <nielsm> andythenorth, you mean so the vehicles available early on in the game are cheap?
14:03:09  <nielsm> regardless of your start date
14:03:11  <andythenorth> when you don't have much money yes
14:03:14  <andythenorth> I think it doesn't work
14:03:18  <nielsm> that sounds like a decent idea
14:03:24  <andythenorth> almost like a discount :P
14:03:30  <andythenorth> 'get started' discount
14:03:40  <andythenorth> maybe a GS should do that
14:03:58  <nielsm> if you start in 1980 and even the cheapest loco costs £150k it's hard getting started :P
14:04:01  <andythenorth> TrueBrain:
14:05:36  <TrueBrain> feels like that is too minimalistic tbh
14:06:15  <TrueBrain> but it shows 2 things I need to solve: I need a Docker that first generates files to be included in another docker. I did not consider that yet :D
14:06:33  <TrueBrain> second, the download banner is more annoying than expected :)
14:06:56  <andythenorth> iframe :P
14:09:18  <TrueBrain> changes to the banner is a rare event
14:09:28  <TrueBrain> basically, on some signal, you just want to rebuild the image and deploy it, I guess
14:09:46  <TrueBrain> making multiple versions of the same git tag, which is bad
14:09:54  <TrueBrain> but commiting a new version every time a nightly is done, is also shitty
14:20:41  <TrueBrain> okay, what will work, is if we use a Docker image which has nginx and jekyll in it .. then on boot you can fetch the latest downloads, generate the website
14:20:52  <TrueBrain> and validate every N minutes if the latest download changed; if so, regenerate
14:20:58  <TrueBrain> not perfect, but good enough for now
14:27:59  <andythenorth> is local dev done in a docker image, or directly?
14:28:06  <TrueBrain> both
14:33:03  <TrueBrain> meh, 'gems' that need 'gcc'
14:33:06  <TrueBrain> that is never a good sign
14:33:15  <andythenorth> is that not normal?
14:33:36  <andythenorth> I only use ruby for the mac ports tree thing, and that needs gcc frequently :P
14:33:44  <TrueBrain> I hate it when it does
14:33:54  <TrueBrain> it often is also for silly shit
14:34:43  <andythenorth> tbf, newgrfs used to require GCC :P
14:34:44  <TrueBrain> but for Dockerfiles, this often means: install gcc, do stuff, uninstall gcc
14:34:45  <TrueBrain> just annoying
14:34:46  <andythenorth> for templating
14:35:41  <TrueBrain> in this case, jekyll wants to install a http parser
14:35:46  <TrueBrain> I dont want his http part
14:35:48  <TrueBrain> wtf
14:38:41  * andythenorth distrusts 'here is all you need' solutions :P
14:39:54  <TrueBrain> it always wants me to make it myself
14:40:00  <TrueBrain> but .. that just adds yet-another-solution to the mix :)
14:43:31  <TrueBrain> life is never simple :P
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14:52:27  <TrueBrain> meh .. the webserver thing is really cramped into Jekyll
14:52:31  <TrueBrain> guess we are not going touse Jekyll :P
14:58:57  <frosch123> oh, flask already has a openid-connect extension
15:01:23  <TrueBrain> that works with GitHub, or?
15:02:45  <frosch123> i assumed so... but some 2015 post says it does some custom oauth2 hack
15:03:22  <TrueBrain> lot of apps allow you to use GitHub as authentication, so not that question I guess?
15:06:18  <TrueBrain> okay, Jekyll is still in the running .. 'apk' (from alpine) is awesome :)
15:07:51  <nielsm> awesome! I have the game playing music from a wav file mixed through mixer.cpp with the rest
15:07:59  <nielsm> (that part's been done before I know)
15:10:40  <nielsm> the goal is to have fluidsynth play through the game mixer, and maybe also add in the opl2/3 emulator from dosbox and support playing from ADLIB.CAT from ttd dos :)
15:10:51  <TrueBrain> I always forget that volume mounts in Docker don't work if you are working on another machine :D LALALALAAAAA :P
15:11:02  <TrueBrain> you are crazy nielsm :)
15:11:06  <TrueBrain> (which is a positive thing)
15:11:50  <nielsm> the hard part was writing (yet another) riff wave file parser
15:12:02  <frosch123> TrueBrain: assuming i would implement authentication delegation into eints/bananas, so translators/contentpeople can login with github, tt-forums if possible, ... would there still be a reason to allow them to login with the existing openttd account?
15:12:14  <TrueBrain> no
15:12:20  <TrueBrain> I would really like to deprecated our own SSO
15:12:41  <TrueBrain> but ... we might want to create a grace period of some sorts
15:12:57  <frosch123> i wonder about stuff like wiki
15:13:06  <TrueBrain> good point
15:13:21  <frosch123> i can hack eints and bananas, but can i hack wiki? :p
15:13:34  <TrueBrain> yes; and it can also just support oauth :)
15:13:45  <TrueBrain> but .. I guess we can slap an oauth on the OpenTTD LDAP
15:13:54  <TrueBrain> which means nobody has to change; but they can
15:14:11  <TrueBrain> for wiki it is also a bit more of anissue, with usernames etc
15:14:25  <TrueBrain> ideal you let people link their OpenTTD account to another OAuth
15:14:30  <TrueBrain> so their username is maintained
15:14:39  <TrueBrain> same goes for BaNaNaS, I guess
15:15:07  <frosch123> i kind of want to implement a small authorisation server, which manages user permissions for translators etc... kind of the current ldap roles, but without the authentication stuff
15:15:16  <TrueBrain> so I am afraid we will be forced to preseed BaNaNaS with OpenTTD LDAP :(
15:15:51  <TrueBrain> local applications should always do authorization ofc
15:16:07  <TrueBrain> not sure it needs to be a server, or part of the application
15:16:10  <TrueBrain> but that is up to you ofc :)
15:16:35  <TrueBrain> but yeah, I am with you on the: lets move away from our own LDAP :)
15:16:44  <TrueBrain> I would really like all parts of OpenTTD to be "on their own"
15:16:53  <TrueBrain> easier in development etc etc
15:17:20  <nielsm>
15:17:27  <nielsm> not making a PR for this, just yet :P
15:17:33  <nielsm> very much haxhax
15:38:41  <TrueBrain> meh, I have to learn to a bit too much about how Ruby does packaging for my taste :P
15:40:57  <andythenorth> apache and a python script :P
15:41:04  <andythenorth> red neck solution
15:41:28  <TrueBrain> ah, finally have it running via both local 'serve' as Docker
15:41:37  <TrueBrain> if I can now forget everything I learned, I am fine
15:48:13  <TrueBrain> okay .. so next step is to clean up the files, and push that to github ..
15:50:37  <nielsm> okay I think I have fluidsynth playing through the mixer now
15:51:27  <andythenorth> ha ha
15:51:30  <andythenorth> :)
15:53:34  <nielsm> birds are weird, I think their sound output is linked to level of brain activity, whenever a stimulus arrives sound is produced
16:05:02  <frosch123> mostly mammals here
16:13:12  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] J0anJosep commented on pull request #6958: Fix #6864: Normalise colour use in Frame rate window
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16:35:49  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] J0anJosep commented on pull request #6935: Add: EnsureNoShipFromDiagDirs
16:50:36  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] J0anJosep commented on pull request #6927: Change: Forbid dock placement on docking area
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17:18:38  <andythenorth> is Wolf01 a mammal?
17:20:44  <frosch123> werewolves count as mammals
17:23:34  *** Guest2148 has quit IRC
17:44:57  <andythenorth> frogs?
18:08:18  *** Wacko1976 has quit IRC
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18:20:19  * andythenorth busy busy
18:21:38  <andythenorth> nielsm: seen the comments on ship stuff?
18:21:43  <andythenorth> I'm inclined to agree
18:24:55  <nielsm> right, it does seem many of them are mostly trying to prevent AIs from shooting themselves too close to the ankle and lose the entire foot
18:26:32  <andythenorth> samu runs long games watching AIs
18:26:45  <andythenorth> and then proposes trunk patches to fix isolated cases he's seen
18:26:59  <andythenorth> there is probably some metaphor about boiling the ocean or something
18:34:35  <frosch123> why do 99 people watch openttd on gh?
18:35:06  <frosch123> why get notified about all conversations when not participating in any of them?
18:35:42  <TrueBrain> because they like the spam?
18:35:52  <frosch123> are these the same people as in this channel?
18:35:58  <TrueBrain> some are :P
18:37:22  <TrueBrain> oeh, more than 1000 stars \o/
18:37:38  <TrueBrain> I didnt even gave it a star :o
18:38:08  <frosch123> yes, we surpassed openttd-deprecated pretty quick
18:38:15  <frosch123> also in forks
18:38:26  <TrueBrain> I like how the last commit is from the 26th of July :P
18:39:39  <frosch123> well, some of the forks are from bots which fork everything, possibly trying to consume gh resources
18:39:49  <frosch123> (no idea why)
18:40:46  <nielsm> I think some also fork projects to get them appear on their profile
18:40:49  <nielsm> as if they were working on it
18:41:13  <frosch123> yes, but when people have >1000 repositories, i consider them bots :)
18:41:16  <andythenorth> one day software will eat all the world
18:41:17  <andythenorth> nvm
18:41:30  <andythenorth> also, how many bags of mail in an 8/8 mail wagon?
18:41:34  <TrueBrain> 12
18:41:35  <andythenorth> default game is 30-37
18:41:41  <andythenorth> depending on type
18:42:26  <frosch123> take an educational approach, make all capacities prime numbers
18:43:08  <frosch123> i am sure some people get annoyed if you set capacity to 31
18:43:30  <andythenorth> capacity prime
18:43:39  <andythenorth> is that an autobot?
18:45:27  <frosch123> even more scary are the people following me
18:55:44  <frosch123> <- exploring gh is like exploring yt
18:56:08  <frosch123> someone wrote a bot to reply to every pr that prs are not used
18:57:51  <TrueBrain> but not even closed
18:57:52  <TrueBrain> lol
19:01:04  <TrueBrain> so much trolling in those PRs
19:01:06  <TrueBrain> lol
19:01:36  <frosch123> no code of conduct :)
19:01:46  <TrueBrain> so many PRs to revert the CoC :P
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19:05:30  <frosch123> i really wonder about the idea behind that bot
19:05:54  <frosch123> did people not know you can disable pr creation, or is that a newer gh feature which did not exist in the past?
19:06:05  <LordAro> i think the latter
19:06:11  <LordAro> o/ all
19:06:17  <frosch123> as it is now, it ridicules everyone opening one
19:07:00  <TrueBrain> I also think if you close PRs, people get even more confuse
19:07:25  <TrueBrain> (as in, disable PRs)
19:08:38  <TrueBrain> why SONOS, every time I want to use the app, you are FORCING Me to update before I can play music ... sometimes I simply dont have time to do the update first .. ugh ..
19:10:59  <andythenorth> but imagine the infosec compliance
19:11:03  <andythenorth> forcibly closed vulns
19:11:06  <andythenorth> right?
19:18:09  <Wolf01>  <andythenorth> is Wolf01 a mammal? <- what made you think I might be a mammal?
19:21:00  <Wolf01> I might be a reptilian or an astral being
19:21:41  <frosch123> it's fine as long as you are no bird
19:24:26  <Wolf01> Mmmh, I need to exercise a bit, but to do what I want I need a bench...
19:24:52  <frosch123> standard excuse :)
19:25:32  <Wolf01> I just purchased the weights :(
19:26:05  <Wolf01> But I need the bench for one specific exercise
19:26:30  <Wolf01> All the others are free body
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19:33:28  <Wolf01> Mmmh, the bed seem to be high enough, but a bit too soft
19:34:13  <Wolf01> <-
19:41:05  <Wolf01> Wow, it works, the pain faded away with 2 series O_O
19:45:10  <andythenorth> \o/
19:51:26  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on issue #6903: selected rail type should be included in game saves
19:52:45  <andythenorth> that's just 'save UI stuff' coming up again
19:52:49  <andythenorth> which we don't do
19:52:56  <andythenorth> window positions are same problem
19:53:44  <nielsm> have a client-side cache of last used railtype per save file and per server address, keep the last 10 or so of each of singleplayer and multiplayer
19:53:53  <nielsm> but not storing it in the save file
19:54:13  <andythenorth> yes it's client state
19:54:15  <andythenorth> not savegame
19:54:34  <andythenorth> photoshop doesn't rearrange itself when I open a .psd
19:54:44  <nielsm> you should write that on the ticket :)
19:54:51  <andythenorth> oof
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19:55:22  <andythenorth> it should just be one persistent UI state, but it's probably too big for openttd.cfg?
19:55:24  <andythenorth> maybe
19:55:32  <andythenorth> that's where we keep other stuff like newgrf list
19:55:50  <frosch123> currently you can store stuff globally and per company
19:56:21  <frosch123> per client makes singleplayer/multiplayer/reloading pretty undefined
20:00:45  <nielsm> re. -- I think attempting to trigger it would need adding a single-step function to run a single tick at a time from pause mode
20:00:49  <nielsm> but is it worth trying to fix?
20:01:36  <frosch123> you need the crash.sav
20:01:53  <frosch123> then you know which rv disconnected where
20:02:11  <frosch123> as it is now, noone knows what is happening since it is not reproducible
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20:33:36  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on issue #6865: Drawing vertical/horizontal lines of width>1 problem
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21:17:53  <andythenorth> what don't I get?
21:17:57  <andythenorth>
21:18:09  <andythenorth> I dont' want to be an asshole
21:18:14  <andythenorth> but isn't that a blog post?
21:19:33  <Wolf01> I thought you ragequit the forum :P
21:21:25  <andythenorth> I took a break
21:21:37  <andythenorth> because ragequit was 1 step away
21:21:42  <andythenorth> in a kind of dumb way
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21:27:03  <nielsm> oh well, back to work tomorrow
21:27:04  <nielsm> gn
21:27:36  <andythenorth> bye
21:27:49  <LordAro> and he was never seen again
21:28:07  <Wolf01> :o
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22:25:43  *** Wolf01 has quit IRC
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23:17:40  *** andythenorth has quit IRC

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