Log for #openttd on 10th November 2018:
Times are UTC Toggle Colours
00:50:08  *** Wolf01 has quit IRC
02:38:53  *** Progman has quit IRC
03:21:40  *** snail_UES_ has joined #openttd
03:39:47  *** glx has quit IRC
05:16:26  *** triolus has joined #openttd
05:22:41  *** snail_UES_ has quit IRC
07:20:32  *** andythenorth has joined #openttd
07:30:39  <andythenorth> moin
07:33:41  *** Alberth has joined #openttd
07:33:41  *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Alberth
07:33:48  <Alberth> moin
07:36:03  <andythenorth> hi Alberth :)
07:36:05  <andythenorth> been a while
07:36:25  <Alberth> yep, too much coding during the work day
07:37:25  <andythenorth> I have a remedy for that
07:37:37  <andythenorth> spend your time on ISO compliance and GDPR
07:37:52  <andythenorth> very recommended
07:38:32  <Alberth> ah, sounds good, not sure if the scientific process needs to be that repeatable :p
07:39:01  <Alberth> being able to understand the result seems sufficient :p
07:39:53  *** triolus has quit IRC
07:42:28  <Alberth> work is also giving me lots of new stuff, which is good but takes a lot of effort
07:44:03  <Alberth> on the hobby side, not sure what to do, I have seen most of openttd, on the other hand, I have no new thing yet either, still looking where to go
07:49:08  <andythenorth> tank games :P
07:54:43  <Alberth> I am playing city build games :p
07:55:27  <Alberth> but it's very slow, at some point I will have enough of it
07:55:59  *** triolus has joined #openttd
08:03:51  *** triolus has quit IRC
08:22:36  <TrueBrain> Alberth: ever considered building websites? Or something like a Master Server? :P
08:23:52  <Alberth> back-ends could work
08:26:04  *** triolus has joined #openttd
08:26:05  <Alberth> no idea what a master server is doing :)
08:26:21  <TrueBrain> keeping track of the servers, telling the clients where to find them, and bringing them in contact :)
08:26:43  <Alberth> ah, that thing
08:26:58  *** triolus has quit IRC
08:26:59  <Alberth> written in ancient technology, I guess?
08:27:01  <TrueBrain>
08:27:08  <TrueBrain> was my latest draft for a redesign
08:27:26  <TrueBrain> lately I have also been wondering if it could help to do NAT punching
08:27:39  <andythenorth> ooh TB
08:30:46  <Alberth> it mostly lists what is not there, it seems :p
08:33:21  <Alberth> needs much more detailing on the specs, I think
08:33:34  <TrueBrain> having specs before code is always good :)
08:34:10  <TrueBrain> if you are interested, I can help with the specs
08:34:51  <Alberth> I wouldn't know what to build at this point :p
08:35:13  <TrueBrain> nobody does :)
08:35:23  *** triolus has joined #openttd
08:35:27  <Alberth> I'll make a PR, ok? let's see what happens
08:35:47  <TrueBrain> go for it :) Anything I can help with, let me know
08:36:39  <Alberth> any description of the current thing somewhere?
08:36:54  <TrueBrain> svn-archive has the code
08:36:57  <TrueBrain> not sure if that has a readme :D
08:37:41  <Alberth> it's perhaps fairly simple, game request a bunch of server info, and that's it?
08:37:55  <Alberth> oh, and server sends a bunch of info, probably :p
08:38:00  <TrueBrain> yeah, so there are 2 things involved
08:38:01  <Alberth> ie game server
08:38:06  <TrueBrain> when a server comes online, it tells the MS he is
08:38:16  <TrueBrain> the MS has an updater running, every 5 minutes it checks all servers if they are still there
08:38:28  <TrueBrain> that last part retrieves information from the server, like time, map, players, ..
08:38:32  <TrueBrain> and updates that in his database
08:38:39  <TrueBrain> clients can poke the MS to get a full list of servers online
08:38:52  <Alberth> ah, I get it
08:39:12  <Alberth> so that should become https too I guess?
08:39:38  <TrueBrain> I am not really sure why I wrote that down inthat document tbh
08:39:43  <TrueBrain> https can be a pita, as you need to add a ssl library
08:39:50  <Alberth> yeah
08:39:50  <TrueBrain> that would be very good, but might be a lot of work too :P
08:40:04  <Alberth> no idea, never done anything https
08:40:07  <TrueBrain> I think I was more trying to make the point (to myself mostly I guess), that UDP is a shitty solution :P
08:40:15  *** triolus has quit IRC
08:40:19  <Alberth> fair enough
08:40:25  <TrueBrain> a long history of issues because we use UDP to query servers
08:40:28  <TrueBrain> while the game runs on TCP :P
08:40:37  <TrueBrain> so I am not sure what the best solution is
08:40:44  <TrueBrain> ah, on the old svn is a 'design.txt'
08:40:51  <Alberth> I'll write some thoughts in a PR, some feedback would be useful then
08:41:28  <TrueBrain> please do
08:41:40  *** triolus has joined #openttd
08:41:43  <TrueBrain> additionally, I am trying to move everything to a kubernetes like layout
08:41:54  <Alberth> I only have /home/alberth/corsix-th/design.txt    :D
08:42:06  <TrueBrain> see your PM :)
08:42:26  <TrueBrain> anyway, a new MS would be most useful if it is one or more Docker containers; but that is optional :)
08:42:45  <Alberth> you're speaking magic words now
08:42:53  <TrueBrain> so optional it is ;)
08:43:02  <Alberth> however I am sure you know what it means :)
08:43:18  <TrueBrain> it is fine :) No need to jump from 0 to 100 km/h at once :P
08:43:33  <TrueBrain> I want the moon, but I am also already very happy with some bread :)
08:46:53  <Alberth> need to shop for that :)   I'll do that first I think, get food for the weekend covered
08:47:05  <TrueBrain> :D
08:49:27  * LordAro waves
08:49:42  <TrueBrain> multi-stage Dockerfiles are cool :)
08:52:01  <LordAro> uh oh :p
08:53:01  <TrueBrain> but Docker always remains annoying .. his COPY never does what I want it to do
08:53:13  <TrueBrain> "owh, you want to copy a directory? Sure, let me copy the content of it for you ..."
09:01:49  * andythenorth kinda reading jekyll docs
09:01:53  <andythenorth> could use a nap though
09:02:02  <TrueBrain> it is .... early morning! :P
09:03:49  *** Wolf01 has joined #openttd
09:03:58  *** nielsm has joined #openttd
09:05:06  <Wolf01> Moin
09:05:09  <TrueBrain> permission denied error when I try to build with Jekyll .. hmmmm
09:05:10  <TrueBrain> morning Wolf01
09:06:12  <nielsm> morning
09:07:00  <TrueBrain> mornign nielsm
09:07:04  <TrueBrain> I cannot type :(
09:08:17  <andythenorth> I cannot brain
09:09:03  <Wolf01> I cannot lego
09:09:12  <TrueBrain> you win
09:09:43  <andythenorth> nielsm: how about also fixing theatres bug? :P
09:10:58  <Wolf01> Must be a funny town
09:11:25  <andythenorth> never dull
09:11:52  *** triolus has quit IRC
09:12:34  <nielsm> andythenorth heh
09:12:50  <nielsm> isn't the problem simply that too few alternatives are available?
09:12:55  <andythenorth> might be, dunno
09:13:07  <andythenorth> I did read the code once, but that was a long time ago :)
09:15:44  <nielsm> but I agree that the town growth algorithm probably can use a revamp to try not making towns worse
09:16:41  <nielsm> somehow assign an economic value to buildings and avoid replacing buildings with good value
09:20:34  <Alberth> theaters are perhaps buildings with good economic value :)
09:21:08  <nielsm> sadly those things would need to be dynamic
09:21:20  <nielsm> i.e. towns should strive for a good composition of buildings
09:21:33  <Alberth> probably aim for diveristy in some way
09:22:18  <Alberth> but if it uses random, that should already be happening
09:23:02  <andythenorth> it can be done in newgrf
09:23:07  <andythenorth> but
09:23:13  <andythenorth> seems weird to fix game bugs in newgrf
09:23:16  *** triolus has joined #openttd
09:23:34  <Alberth> since that would be a likely implementation, it is likely useful to first find why it happens
09:23:53  <Alberth> andy: Like haveing support for non-default cargoes, you mean?
09:24:17  <andythenorth> the bug is that the theatres cause town population to plummet
09:24:41  <andythenorth> so counter-intuitively, before 1930, providing service to a town grows it physically, but destroys the population
09:25:40  <nielsm>
09:25:46  <nielsm> buildings available 1930 or earlier
09:25:52  <nielsm> really not a lot of choice
09:25:53  <Alberth> somebody didn't think theatres would be popular :p
09:27:40  <nielsm> could maybe introduce a new house flag for "do not build close to another of the same type"
09:27:59  <nielsm> useful for cultural buildings that don't grow population
09:28:07  <nielsm> theatres, parks, statues
09:28:19  <andythenorth> so there are only 5 options in zone 4
09:28:33  <andythenorth> so the shrinking population problem only occurs for specific town sizes
09:28:58  <andythenorth> 35 popn theatres replace 100 popn shops and offices
09:29:16  <Alberth> it's weird that you get entire streets of theatres imho
09:29:19  <andythenorth> oh
09:29:28  <andythenorth> the min build year is interesting
09:29:34  <andythenorth> so what happens *before* 1930
09:29:37  <andythenorth> towns still get built
09:29:53  <andythenorth> Alberth: it could just be confirmation basis on a genuinely random pattern
09:29:57  <andythenorth> but it's bad gameplay
09:30:15  <LordAro> is it just a case of buildings in the base set having an introduction dates set to 1930 because TTD could never be played that far back?
09:30:29  <andythenorth> LordAro: that's what I wonder
09:30:30  <Alberth> with 5 kinds of houses, you'd expect some house here and there in-between?
09:30:32  <nielsm> TTD started in 1950
09:30:34  <nielsm> TTO in 1930
09:31:03  <Alberth> maybe it makes selections based on available space or so?
09:31:28  <nielsm> yeah that table from the newgrf wiki is not quite right
09:31:36  <nielsm> lots of buildings have min_year=0
09:31:55  <andythenorth> I have found MakeTownHouse
09:32:00  <andythenorth> but can't find a list of default houses
09:32:09  <nielsm> town_land.h
09:32:12  <nielsm> tables folder
09:32:13  <Alberth> src/table/
09:32:20  <nielsm> end of file
09:32:33  <andythenorth> I would never have guessed there :)
09:32:57  <Alberth> everything table is in 'table' :)
09:34:35  <nielsm> the size 95 "shops and offices" are really from 1930
09:35:27  <andythenorth> so I think the effect is random, and I've screenshotted pathological cases
09:35:31  <nielsm> only the size 100 "shops and offices" and the theatre are available before 1930
09:35:39  <andythenorth>
09:35:58  <andythenorth> ^ that one seems to have even mix of theatres and two colours of size 100 shops and offices
09:36:03  <andythenorth> 3 colours
09:36:13  <nielsm> yep
09:36:21  <nielsm> that's the only two available in zone 4 before 1930
09:36:33  <LordAro> maybe those buildings with min_year ~1931 could be set to 0
09:36:44  <andythenorth> and when the town grows, it might replace 100 popn building with 35?
09:37:16  <andythenorth> could just weight it by adding more entries for shops and offices, same sprites
09:37:26  <nielsm> can't add mose house ids
09:39:15  <andythenorth> guard that can't replace high popn building with lower popn?
09:39:28  <andythenorth> might have unexpected consequences :P
09:39:48  <nielsm> occasionally new parks etc should pop up in a city centre
09:41:29  <nielsm> but a check for "no other cultural buildings nearby" (new flag) (nearby meaning tile radius 2 or 3) could work I think
09:44:10  <LordAro> still lots of magic numbers in town_land.h, interestingly
09:54:15  <Alberth> it's ancient, it's stable, don't touch it :)
09:56:28  <LordAro> :p
10:04:38  <andythenorth> just imagine all the magic numbers in universe.h
10:04:47  <andythenorth> given that we're all living in a simulation :P
10:05:20  <LordAro> turns out they are actually already defined
10:05:28  <LordAro> but they're defined in decimal, not hex
10:05:35  <LordAro> so it's a little difficult to work out which is which :p
10:06:31  * andythenorth wonders how many physical phenomena can be attributed to refactoring attempts :P
10:06:42  <andythenorth> in the underlying code for reality
10:09:31  <Alberth> could be the black matter :)
10:09:45  <Alberth> new bananas even has code :o
10:09:52  <andythenorth> everything is awesome
10:10:00  <LordAro> :o
10:15:46  <andythenorth> so I should try this town gen patch eh?
10:15:52  <andythenorth> and mac ICU fixes
10:15:59  <andythenorth> so what do I do?
10:16:08  <andythenorth> add them as remotes to my clone of LordAro's branch?
10:16:24  <andythenorth> I can't compile trunk
10:17:02  <LordAro> uh
10:17:30  <LordAro> probably check out those patches/PR, then apply my branch on top of it
10:17:45  <nielsm> wasn't it a workaround to pass CXXFLAGS=-std=c++11 to configure too?
10:17:50  <LordAro> that would work
10:18:00  <LordAro> i was going to update the PR to just pass that regardless
10:19:24  *** matt21347 has joined #openttd
10:34:54  <LordAro> so it turns out not all sprites are actually defined
10:42:30  <Wolf01> In CS how do you usually limit the area of operation for emergency vehicles? I noticed all my ev take the highway to go on the other side of the map where there is already an unused station, and when all the vehicles are around, unused stations spawn new vehicles to go on the other side of the map too...
10:44:05  <LordAro> in fact, basically only the temperate sprites are defined
10:44:28  <nielsm> Wolf01: well you don't... I think there is a mod that lets you restrict them to the district (?) they are placed in
10:45:15  <Wolf01> I'll try with traffic manager, but that's a lot of work
10:58:15  <Wolf01> They still seem to move around, but in reduced number... I lost half of the population because hearses were stuck in the highway and had like 400 dead people around
11:05:25  <Alberth> make emergency vehicle lanes?
11:05:44  <Alberth> no idea if that's possible though :)
11:05:57  <Wolf01> Not in highways
11:06:09  <Wolf01> Ok, it is, with traffic manager
11:07:17  <Alberth> block them from using the highway
11:07:28  <Wolf01> That's what I did... no success
11:07:57  <Wolf01> Emergency vehicles are above the law...
11:08:34  <Alberth> flying above the highway would be more useful :)
11:08:39  <Wolf01> Banned trucks on a highway exit and they don't use it, banned recycling trucks and tey don't give a fuck
11:09:06  <Alberth> lol
11:09:23  <Alberth> send police in, and the money rolls in :p
11:10:07  *** Progman has joined #openttd
11:54:43  <andythenorth> hmm
11:54:49  <andythenorth> my fancy new backup drive is not very fancy
11:55:44  <andythenorth> it only writes at about 20MB/s
11:56:27  <andythenorth> internal drive is 2500MB/s
11:56:36  <Alberth> not-so-fast usb cable?
11:56:47  <andythenorth> it's supposed to be USB 3.1
11:56:53  <andythenorth> read is ok 500MB/s
11:57:30  <Alberth> as long as you dont produce more than 20MB/s new information, it will work :p
11:57:34  <andythenorth> it's quite an old SSD in a new case, maybe it's the SSD
11:57:36  <andythenorth> oof
11:57:48  <andythenorth> the quest for faster backups continues
11:58:17  <Alberth> no idea how SSD write time relates to read times or age
11:58:42  <Alberth> 500MB/s read sounds like your usb cable is working as intended though
12:02:11  <Alberth> (assuming you're not sneakily reading from computer RAM cache)
12:14:40  <nielsm> SSD writes usually go to a buffer, and then the chipset shuffles things around to actually put the data in flash memory, since flash can only be erased in large pages at a time that can mean it needs to read a bunch of existing data and rewrite it with the new data added
12:14:52  <nielsm> and so when that buffer fills up, write speed drops
12:15:12  <nielsm> (seen from the host perspective)
12:17:14  <andythenorth> so it's probably 5 years old SSD
12:17:19  <andythenorth> might be small buffer
12:18:02  <nielsm> and flash cells also degrade with use, and data will slowly fade from flash cells too
12:18:22  <nielsm> flash does need refresh once in a while, like dram, just not very often
12:19:01  <nielsm> (and it depends on density and whether you're doing single-level or multi-level cells)
12:20:07  <LordAro> i don't think andythenorth is doing the sort of hardcore read/writes to wear out an SSD in only 5 years
12:20:19  <andythenorth> it's just a backup drive
12:20:22  <nielsm> yeah likely not
12:20:40  <andythenorth> I suspect that (1) it's old (2) USB 3.1 is a lot slower than PCI-E
12:21:02  <andythenorth> it claims 10Gb/s
12:21:25  <andythenorth> @calc 20 / 1250
12:21:25  <nielsm> but really, don't use flash storage for backup, especially if you plan on leaving it offline for long periods
12:21:25  <DorpsGek> andythenorth: 0.016
12:21:31  <LordAro> bet some part of the chain is not USB3.1 speeds
12:21:45  <LordAro> how is it connected at the other end? USB3.1 wasn't a thing 5 years ago
12:22:08  <andythenorth> it's a USB 3.1 enclosure with SATA (don't know what SATA spec the drive has)
12:22:09  <michi_cc> andythenorth: There's a neat marketing trick to write USB 3.1 Gen 1 on stuff to mean USB 3.0 speed.
12:22:32  <andythenorth> this one claimed 10Gb/s :)
12:22:35  <andythenorth> in the marketing
12:22:54  <michi_cc> There's no SATA faster than 600Mb/s in theory an about 550MB/s in practice.
12:23:09  <michi_cc> s/b/B/g, sorry
12:23:46  <andythenorth> other people are reporting 300MB/s with this enclosure
12:24:27  <andythenorth> well the mystery can continue another day
12:24:30  <andythenorth> backup is done
12:49:25  *** lugo has joined #openttd
13:27:25  *** acklen has quit IRC
13:27:40  *** Maarten has quit IRC
13:27:51  *** Maarten has joined #openttd
13:28:01  *** ccfreak2k has quit IRC
13:29:55  *** triolus has quit IRC
13:29:55  *** greeter has quit IRC
13:29:55  *** rocky1138 has quit IRC
13:29:55  *** quiznilo has quit IRC
13:29:55  *** Tharbakim has quit IRC
13:29:55  *** dwfreed has quit IRC
13:30:45  *** acklen has joined #openttd
13:31:13  *** triolus has joined #openttd
13:31:13  *** quiznilo has joined #openttd
13:31:13  *** Tharbakim has joined #openttd
13:31:13  *** greeter has joined #openttd
13:31:50  *** dwfreed has joined #openttd
14:34:26  <Wolf01> lol... distance2banana
14:49:16  <Alberth> let's take some random text fragments and merge them :p
15:49:06  *** triolus has quit IRC
16:03:55  *** Wormnest has joined #openttd
16:05:21  *** snail_UES_ has joined #openttd
16:23:20  *** Alberth has left #openttd
16:26:23  *** tokai|noir has joined #openttd
16:26:23  *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai|noir
16:33:19  *** tokai has quit IRC
16:38:38  *** dwfreed is now known as Guest2700
16:38:38  *** Guest2700 is now known as Guest2701
16:38:40  *** dwfreed has joined #openttd
16:40:00  *** snail_UES_ is now known as Guest2702
16:40:01  *** snail_UES_ has joined #openttd
16:40:04  *** Guest2701 has quit IRC
16:43:31  *** Guest2702 has quit IRC
16:44:06  *** Tharbakim has quit IRC
17:09:02  *** andythenorth has quit IRC
17:21:12  *** snail_UES_ has quit IRC
17:21:51  *** Wolf01 is now known as Guest2714
17:21:53  *** Wolf01 has joined #openttd
17:27:49  *** Guest2714 has quit IRC
17:52:48  *** frosch123 has joined #openttd
17:54:36  *** Wolf01 is now known as Guest2719
17:54:38  *** Wolf01 has joined #openttd
17:57:54  *** Guest2719 has quit IRC
18:09:33  *** Wolf01 is now known as Guest2721
18:09:35  *** Wolf01 has joined #openttd
18:09:58  *** lugo has quit IRC
18:13:36  *** Guest2721 has quit IRC
18:33:56  *** snail_UES_ has joined #openttd
18:48:11  *** wodencafe has quit IRC
18:49:51  *** glx has joined #openttd
18:49:51  *** ChanServ sets mode: +v glx
19:19:56  *** Wormnest has quit IRC
19:46:54  *** wodencafe has joined #openttd
20:24:38  *** wodencafe has quit IRC
20:24:50  *** wodencafe has joined #openttd
20:27:44  *** wodencafe has joined #openttd
20:29:36  *** Progman has quit IRC
20:34:05  *** wodencafe has quit IRC
21:03:41  *** lugo has joined #openttd
21:05:05  *** wodencafe has joined #openttd
21:11:44  *** lugo has quit IRC
21:58:28  *** snail_UES_ has quit IRC
22:00:29  *** frosch123 has quit IRC
22:58:24  *** lugo has joined #openttd
23:08:27  *** nielsm has quit IRC
23:32:39  *** matt21347 has quit IRC
23:43:24  *** snail_UES_ has joined #openttd

Powered by YARRSTE version: svn-trunk