Log for #openttd on 17th November 2018:
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00:06:11  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] matthijskooijman commented on issue #6922: Replace ICU ParagraphLayout with something else?
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04:23:42  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] khaledhosny commented on issue #6922: Replace ICU ParagraphLayout with something else?
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07:01:05  <nielsm> morning
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08:40:41  <andythenorth> moin
09:12:11  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] matthijskooijman commented on issue #6922: Replace ICU ParagraphLayout with something else?
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09:21:38  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] matthijskooijman commented on issue #6922: Replace ICU ParagraphLayout with something else?
09:26:37  <andythenorth> where is TrueBrain ?
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09:45:29  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on issue #6922: Replace ICU ParagraphLayout with something else?
10:26:50  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: somewhere in the world, I would estimate
10:28:16  <andythenorth> oic
10:28:51  <TrueBrain> how ever, it is an estimation; I can be off a few feet up in the sky
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10:29:48  <uwap> ∕!⧵ ATTN﹕ Thiѕ chаnnеl hɑѕ ⅿoved to іrϲ.freᥱᥒode․net #/јоⅰᥒ /ǃ\
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10:29:54  <TrueBrain> @mode +R
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10:31:48  <andythenorth> TrueBrain: such website changes pushed
10:32:02  <andythenorth> I am going out in a bit, but I will try and do screenshots later today
10:32:18  <andythenorth> is there staging url yet? o_O
10:32:26  <TrueBrain> there is; it is just not being auto-updated :P
10:32:54  <andythenorth> I am expecting broken links and stuff
10:33:16  <TrueBrain> possibly a good test for screenshots is to do contact.html first, to make that come from a list of some kind
10:34:25  <andythenorth> oof
10:34:26  <andythenorth> yes
10:34:30  <andythenorth> although currently
10:34:39  <andythenorth> I am looking at web pages and wondering how many we can just delete :P
10:34:43  <andythenorth> in favour of github
10:35:13  <TrueBrain> first port, lets talk about details later :D
10:35:16  <andythenorth> yair yair
10:35:19  <andythenorth> I know
10:35:24  <andythenorth> just looking at
10:35:39  <TrueBrain> contributors != devs, ofc
10:36:28  <andythenorth> also too many global nav links :P
10:36:37  * andythenorth thinking out loud here
10:37:07  <TrueBrain> global nav links?
10:37:28  <andythenorth> 10 main navigation links in header
10:37:36  <TrueBrain> ah
10:37:38  <andythenorth> which unpredictably go offsite or not
10:37:38  <TrueBrain> well, again: port first
10:37:40  <TrueBrain> ;)
10:37:40  <andythenorth> yes
10:37:46  <TrueBrain> keep focused ;)
10:38:03  <andythenorth> I have to write down the distractions to stop them being distracting :P
10:38:12  <TrueBrain> :D
10:38:19  <andythenorth> ok later screenshots, blog, profit
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13:02:38  <peter1138> hi
13:07:19  <nielsm> I am a developer
13:07:25  <nielsm> I developed two sheets of film
13:07:32  <nielsm>
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13:17:25  <andythenorth> so
13:17:31  <andythenorth> how about scriptable orders?
13:22:05  <peter1138> How about it, eh
13:22:44  <andythenorth> then we could delete some buttons
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13:51:09  <andythenorth> hmm
13:51:13  <andythenorth> I hate everything
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14:10:04  <andythenorth> got a plaster on my middle fingertip
14:10:19  <andythenorth> makes typing and using trackpad massively rage inducing
15:03:36  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh approved pull request #6970: Revert: Sprite sorting optimisation sorted incorrectly.
15:05:13  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh merged pull request #6971: Fix #6969: Account for BOM when reading script files
15:05:17  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh closed issue #6969: Bug in extracting .tar file
15:05:48  <LordAro> :)
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17:12:44  <andythenorth> do we care about segmenting by version?
17:12:57  <andythenorth> it's technically possible, but faff
17:15:11  <nielsm> arguably really old screenshots that don't represent current versions should be relegated to a "history" page or similar
17:15:28  <nielsm> while I'd expect "screenshots" to provide a display of recent versions
17:19:33  <LordAro> ono
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17:25:29  <andythenorth> currently the screenshots are nested in dirs by version/topic
17:25:33  <andythenorth> I dislike nested dirs on the web
17:25:39  <andythenorth> it makes traversing fiddly
17:26:13  <andythenorth> want to flatten them
17:27:49  <andythenorth> maybe I can't be bothered :P
17:34:28  <frosch123> LordAro: new replacement for smallvector?
17:36:45  <LordAro> sure :P
17:39:05  <nielsm> I think I did consider using std::basic_string in some of my midi code, but it seemed too weird and I suspect someone would have flagged it at review too :)
17:39:22  <nielsm> (I haven't made non-character string before)
18:07:57  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] matthijskooijman commented on issue #6922: Replace ICU ParagraphLayout with something else?
18:19:54  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] khaledhosny commented on issue #6922: Replace ICU ParagraphLayout with something else?
18:20:04  <nielsm> okay there is a slightly edge issue there: how do you know whether a (potentially) user-entered string is LTR or RTL primary reading direction? as in town names, signs, company names, chat?
18:20:23  <nielsm> especially if a save is loaded by someone else, or in a multiplayer game
18:20:51  <nielsm> you'd kind of need to store some extra data with every user-created string which input language was used (if known)
18:21:41  <andythenorth> TrueBrain: in the contact page, the email addresses are url encoded
18:21:49  <andythenorth> is that an attempt to stop screen-scraping of them?
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18:27:06  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on issue #6922: Replace ICU ParagraphLayout with something else?
18:27:16  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on issue #6922: Replace ICU ParagraphLayout with something else?
18:49:02  <frosch123> nielsm: the layouting libraries (like icu) know which texts are LTR or RTL. there is something like a natural reading order for every unicode character, which is used in the absence of other rtl/ltr control codes
18:50:02  <frosch123> so, if you have a shaping engine, it has that information, you don't need to add a new information
18:50:17  <frosch123> if you have no shaping engine, ottd only renders "?", so no need for rtl/ltr
18:51:01  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] khaledhosny commented on issue #6922: Replace ICU ParagraphLayout with something else?
18:51:02  <nielsm> each character has a directionality property, but to properly perform the bidi algorithm you need to know what the natural directionality of the language context is
18:51:24  <nielsm> that's actually explicitly written in the bidi algorithm technical note from unicode consortium
18:51:30  <nielsm> (as far as I remember)
18:52:03  <nielsm> to layout correctly, you need to know whether you have an english text with some arabic words in it, or an arabic text with some english words in it
18:57:03  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on issue #6922: Replace ICU ParagraphLayout with something else?
18:57:04  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] matthijskooijman commented on issue #6922: Replace ICU ParagraphLayout with something else?
18:58:35  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] matthijskooijman commented on issue #6922: Replace ICU ParagraphLayout with something else?
19:05:32  <andythenorth> too much logic in page templates
19:05:41  <andythenorth> Jekyll needs a backing view in code
19:05:49  <andythenorth> maybe it can actually do that with plugins :P
19:05:57  <frosch123> nielsm: that part is defined in the lang files
19:06:21  <frosch123> ##textdir rtl <- arabic_egypt.txt
19:08:15  <andythenorth> so who's got a Jekyll build?
19:08:28  <andythenorth> I need help on splitting and sorting the array for the contacts page
19:09:27  <nielsm> an arabic player sends me a savegame, in which he has renamed a station from "Farnbridge <central>" (with <central> being a string translated) to something else, with arabic text, will that guaranteedly render the same on my end as on his? and if not, should something be done?
19:10:46  <LordAro> i feel there's an easy way to find out
19:12:42  <frosch123> LordAro: the "curly functions" video is worse than the string video
19:13:01  <LordAro> it is
19:13:40  <andythenorth> I can't find a way to drop items from an array in Liquid
19:13:43  <andythenorth> which surprises me
19:15:25  <andythenorth>
19:16:30  <andythenorth> meh, I have to use really clunky crap
19:24:12  <LordAro> is there a way to not get it in the array in the first place? :p
19:24:35  <LordAro> nielsm: you should add yourself to the readme/info window, btw
19:25:13  <andythenorth> LordAro: not really
19:25:19  <andythenorth> well there is, but it's crude
19:25:43  <andythenorth> I can JFDI to make it work, but I don't learn much Liquid that way
19:26:44  <nielsm> LordAro, only if you review some more of my open PR's :P
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19:40:09  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh opened pull request #6972: Update: Developer credits
19:42:08  <andythenorth> figured it out
19:42:45  <nielsm> may also need to move andythenorth up from the "special thanks" section there soon :)
19:42:55  <andythenorth> Jekyll / Liquid is quite cool, but I prefer having a backing view
19:43:06  <andythenorth> it's limiting doing everything in the template
19:43:20  <andythenorth> it makes sense because it comes from Shopify, where you probably can't write logic in views
19:43:50  <LordAro> nielsm: :>
19:44:04  <LordAro> nielsm: might want to review existing names as well
19:44:33  <andythenorth> that
19:44:42  <andythenorth> LordAro: can you pull and check I didn't break the contacts?
19:44:49  <andythenorth> compare live site with compiled page?
19:45:15  <andythenorth> oh I changed 'Function' to 'Role'
19:45:22  <andythenorth> Function reads weird to me
19:45:46  <nielsm> LordAro, I do notice several names on that list I haven't seen speaking here at all, yes
19:45:58  <LordAro> andythenorth: i'll have to install jekyll anew
19:46:16  <LordAro> nielsm: probably confer with frosch123
19:47:39  <andythenorth> 'hall of fame'
19:47:45  <andythenorth> 'fallen soldiers' :P
19:50:38  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: yup; the encoding means you cannot really google for emails etc
19:50:43  <TrueBrain> most common regex fail horribly
19:51:02  <andythenorth> does that actually help?
19:51:05  <TrueBrain> (mainly as it mixes dec with hex)
19:51:11  <andythenorth> if it's spam crawlers, don't they just parse it?
19:51:14  <TrueBrain> I think it does; but that is hard to measure ofc
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19:51:26  <TrueBrain> many don't. It is pretty expensive to parse these things
19:51:28  <andythenorth> well we'll need a Jekyll plugin to do it then :P
19:51:34  <andythenorth> or maybe there's a built in encode
19:51:36  <TrueBrain> but it is mainly to keep out the simple google searches
19:51:59  <andythenorth> uri escape?
19:52:14  <andythenorth> map?
19:52:27  <TrueBrain> just put them in plaintext for now; we will figure out a way before going live :)
19:52:31  <andythenorth> I did
19:52:38  <andythenorth> so contacts are done
19:52:41  <andythenorth> blogs I will do next
19:52:45  <andythenorth> I am avoiding screenshots
19:53:15  <TrueBrain> :D
19:53:42  <andythenorth> for bonus points, the contacts sort order can be controlled
19:53:48  <andythenorth> but nobody but me will remember why or how
19:54:39  <TrueBrain> possibly we also want to sort the low-prio contacts on alfabet?
19:54:53  <andythenorth> that can be done yes
19:55:03  <andythenorth> it's alpha on nick currently
19:55:04  <TrueBrain> sorted on nickname is most useful I guess
19:55:08  <andythenorth> same as current site
19:55:09  <TrueBrain> good
19:55:11  <andythenorth> trivial to change
19:55:15  <TrueBrain> but that is by the order in the file, right?
19:55:34  <andythenorth> yes
19:55:43  <TrueBrain> I am surprised you can fix the order stuff like that :) Pretty nice btw :)
19:55:51  <andythenorth> Liquid is pretty competent
19:55:59  <andythenorth> I'd _rather_ do it in python in a backing view
19:56:00  <andythenorth> but eh
19:56:12  <TrueBrain> we wont have a backend, so that aint going to happen :P
19:56:25  <andythenorth> the main framework I use has spent years teaching people to take this kind of logic out of templates :P
19:56:35  <andythenorth> don't mangle data in the template, just do loops and conditionals
19:56:37  <andythenorth> but it's fine
19:56:49  <TrueBrain> its just sorting :)
19:56:55  <TrueBrain> sorting should often be in the template btw ..
19:57:10  <TrueBrain> backends shouldn't worry about how things are represented on screens
19:57:26  <TrueBrain> but not having Javascript is a big plus atm :D
19:57:47  <glx> sometimes user is even allowed to resort on display
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19:59:06  <Eddi|zuHause> clientside javascript is what the page needs, definitely
19:59:07  <andythenorth> does someone want to reformat all the screenshots with awk or something?
19:59:26  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: we can script that, no problem
19:59:40  <TrueBrain> if you make it look good for, say, 2 screenshots in 2 versions, I can do the rest :)
19:59:43  <andythenorth> there are a bunch of 'nfo' files with a caption in
19:59:59  <andythenorth> and everything is nested by topic
20:00:14  <andythenorth> nfo needs converted to .md with liquid vars
20:00:22  <andythenorth> and we can just put the topic in as a liquid var
20:00:41  <andythenorth> words words words
20:01:58  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc approved pull request #6972: Update: Developer credits
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20:05:10  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh merged pull request #6972: Update: Developer credits
20:05:19  <TrueBrain> gratz :D
20:06:09  <nielsm> I feel so accomplished
20:06:30  <TrueBrain> its not nothing, and well deserved :)
20:06:51  <nielsm> (ottd is the third oss project with my name in the listed credits, I think)
20:07:04  <TrueBrain> I noticed it really helps if you are looking for a (new) job
20:07:13  <nielsm> (I really ought to start working on aegisub again, it's deader than ever)
20:19:08  <frosch123> i should remove my name from nforenum
20:20:24  <TrueBrain> you dont want to be assosiated with it anymore? :P
20:20:31  <andythenorth> ha ha
20:20:40  <andythenorth> Jekyll is so similar to Zope in lots of ways
20:20:42  <andythenorth> it's very familar
20:21:14  <frosch123> TrueBrain: 10 years ago, some job interviewer asked me why ottd is so little c+
20:21:16  <frosch123> +
20:21:47  <TrueBrain> so you walked away, then and there? :P
20:21:53  <frosch123> what should i answer when they ask why nforenum has the code formatting it has?
20:22:29  <frosch123> hmm, also... my name is no longer unique
20:22:45  <frosch123> some grown-up guy is now also found
20:23:31  <frosch123> s/grown-up/young adult/ ?
20:23:58  <ST2> hello all :)
20:24:41  <andythenorth> alt tags on screenshots
20:24:48  <andythenorth> 'thumbnail of screenshot' (accurate but useless)
20:24:55  <andythenorth> or the caption? (semantic, but might be waffle)
20:26:00  <nielsm> I suppose an alt text describing the elements shown in the shot helps image search engines
20:29:32  <andythenorth> so
20:29:41  <andythenorth> can we convert nml compilation to use Jekyll? o_O
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20:50:41  <andythenorth> hmm I broke Jekyll :(
20:51:10  <Xaroth> I think you just answered your own question, andythenorth
20:51:26  <andythenorth> I broke Jekyll by following instructions :P
20:51:38  <andythenorth> jekyll-nml was trolling :P
20:52:54  <andythenorth> ok fixed it
20:53:04  <frosch123> we lost eddi again
20:53:36  <LordAro> rip
20:58:57  <TrueBrain> @mode -R
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20:58:59  <TrueBrain> quick, get him in
20:59:18  <andythenorth> how much do we care if I'm doing Jekyll wrong?
20:59:23  <TrueBrain> 12
20:59:31  <andythenorth> there's some stuff around treatment of urls that I don't understand
20:59:46  <andythenorth> and I cba to understand
20:59:47  <glx> as long as it doesn't become Hide
21:00:26  <andythenorth> can always find-replace it later
21:00:46  <LordAro> Hyde*
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21:19:45  <andythenorth> oof
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21:27:12  <andythenorth> TrueBrain LordAro screenshots done, can you see what I broke?
21:27:15  <andythenorth> I pushed
21:32:34  * LordAro works out how to install jekyll again
21:36:24  <andythenorth>
21:36:39  <andythenorth> somewhat macos specific :P
21:38:23  <LordAro> close enough
21:45:58  <TrueBrain> docker run -v `pwd`:/source jekyll:builder jekyll build
21:46:00  <TrueBrain> or something
21:46:06  <TrueBrain> forgot which directory they build the tools on
21:46:21  <andythenorth> afaik, it's just the blog left, and bugs
21:46:35  <andythenorth> I found a solution to base url thing, which needs applied more places :P
21:47:01  <LordAro> right, running
21:47:17  <LordAro> nav bar still a bit broken
21:47:20  <LordAro> missing backgrounds
21:48:14  <andythenorth> which nav bar?
21:48:17  <andythenorth> the global nav?
21:48:22  <LordAro> wait, live site is also doing that
21:48:23  <LordAro> yeah
21:49:14  <LordAro>
21:49:41  <LordAro> pages are missing titles
21:51:34  <andythenorth> oof that missing background is exciting
21:51:40  <andythenorth> I don't see that
21:51:47  <andythenorth> which browser?
21:52:00  <LordAro> chrome(ium), 70
21:52:20  <LordAro> the background doesn't appear at all in the dev tools
21:52:22  <LordAro> which is odd
21:52:57  <LordAro> ...same for firefox
21:53:04  <LordAro> wtf is my network doing
21:54:20  <andythenorth> quite a lot of broken links in pages
21:54:25  <andythenorth> need a 404 validator :P
21:55:27  <LordAro> wait hang on
21:55:38  <LordAro> that's the nav bar background above
21:56:00  <LordAro> why's it stopped overlapping?
21:56:26  <andythenorth> works for me, but I wouldn't be surprised if it's broken
21:57:27  <LordAro> interesting... if i remove the float:left from #navigation-bar it goes back to where it should... except for Donate which is on the next "line"
21:58:10  <LordAro>
21:58:48  <LordAro> be odd to be broken for both FF(63) & Chrome though
21:58:50  <LordAro> and no one else
21:59:30  * andythenorth finds a link checker and runs it
22:01:59  <andythenorth> hmm
22:02:00  <andythenorth>
22:02:03  <andythenorth> is what?
22:02:20  <andythenorth> linked from
22:02:27  <andythenorth> 'web services'
22:02:40  <LordAro> redirects to for me...
22:02:43  <glx> LordAro: try IE and edge ;)
22:03:04  <LordAro> glx: with difficulty :p
22:04:08  <andythenorth> dunno where it should go
22:04:19  <andythenorth> that wiki page isn't about web services that we need ££ for
22:14:22  <frosch123> LordAro: c++20 just gained "Signed Integers are now defined to be represented using Two's Complement". didn't we talk about that somewhen :p
22:14:56  <LordAro> haha
22:14:59  <LordAro> yes, i believe we did
22:15:38  <LordAro> andythenorth: the whole page using images to do blurring & colours makes me sad
22:15:42  <LordAro> can i change it all?
22:16:01  <andythenorth> I would
22:16:07  <andythenorth> I already replaced some of it
22:16:17  <andythenorth> css is in static assets
22:16:26  <LordAro> i have a terrible feeling that i already did half of this the last time replacing django came up
22:16:34  <LordAro> but i think i deleted that a few weeks ago
22:16:41  <andythenorth> if you find any images are unused, can you delete them :)
22:16:58  <andythenorth> oof the icons bother me :P
22:17:03  <andythenorth> they are very pixelated
22:17:32  <andythenorth> new website needed :P
22:21:59  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] MosheL commented on issue #6427: [Windows] RTL bug OpenTTD 1.6.0-RC1
22:25:38  <andythenorth> super bedtime
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