Log for #openttd on 3rd December 2018:
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01:45:34  <Gustavo6046> WAIT
01:45:49  <Gustavo6046> How do the magnetic levitation trains go up and down slopes without losing its stability and toppling over?!?!
01:48:37  <Eddi|zuHause> there is no up and down, the earth is flat, haven't you heard?
01:51:05  <Eddi|zuHause> but more seriously, magnetic levitation is based on a principle that if you move in one direction through a magnetic field, you induce a current that in turn induces an opposite force that cancels out any movement
01:51:19  <Eddi|zuHause> that's how it doesn't fall down
01:51:30  <Eddi|zuHause> and that's also how it can't move to any side
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03:29:03  <Gustavo6046> Eddi|zuHause, ahhh
03:29:09  <Gustavo6046> makes sense
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05:18:18  <Flygon> So basically.
05:18:24  <Flygon> Maglev can also act as the opposite of lev. :V
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13:25:59  <Sacro> I blame Eddi|zuHause
13:26:30  <Eddi|zuHause> 't wasn't me
13:26:45  <Sacro> That's exactly what a guilty person would say
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17:18:40  <planetmaker> o/
17:20:00  <frosch123> moo
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18:06:25  <Wolf01> Moin
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18:36:39  <Wolf01> Mmmh, motors, battery, and sensors for ev3... 270€
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18:39:40  <andythenorth> o/
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18:58:54  <andythenorth> box cars?
19:00:45  <nielsm> some option for finished goods that can go faster than raw materials feels better
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19:01:58  <nielsm> but maybe only as container cars later on... dunno if that really has basis in reality
19:02:30  <andythenorth> kinda does
19:02:35  <andythenorth> Pikka sets had express box car
19:02:39  <andythenorth> it's just a different mail car
19:05:36  <nielsm> the grossest things are those modern flat cars that carry a full rv trailer, ready to be unloaded and hooked up with a truck for the last mile
19:13:38  <Wolf01> So, my neighbour moved and my internet now works... coincidence?
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19:17:46  <acklen> you shouldn't share your wifi with the whole block
19:17:56  <Wolf01> Cable adsl
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19:36:41  <andythenorth> snail implemented train brake force :)
19:36:47  <andythenorth> should I? o_O
19:38:45  <planetmaker> what does it add to gameplay?
19:39:21  <andythenorth> dunno haven't tried the grf yet :)
19:39:32  <andythenorth> it's amusing because I suggested it a few days ago for newgrf spec
19:39:37  <andythenorth> contingent timing :P
19:39:57  <andythenorth> the french trains readme is really impressive
19:40:11  <andythenorth>
19:40:12  <planetmaker> Without knowing anything about it... I don't think it will have any effect on anything I want from the game
19:40:18  <planetmaker> Just another number to the engines
19:40:37  <andythenorth> it's honestly pointless
19:40:58  <andythenorth> Snail has done it like Pikka did brake vans, train won't go if brake force is too low
19:41:17  <andythenorth> my idea was some kind of braking time bonus, depot entry speed bonus etc
19:41:28  <andythenorth> my idea was 99% not serious
19:42:49  <planetmaker> It's something for people with a micromanaging fetish
19:42:52  <planetmaker> :P
19:47:23  <frosch123> 57 pages, is that more than the "inofficial ottd manual"? :p
19:48:26  <andythenorth> I think it's the best example of what Pikka called a 'survey set'
19:48:32  <andythenorth> it's really detailed impressive work :)
19:49:05  <andythenorth> I think my views on realistic sets are probably on record somewhere :P
19:49:12  <andythenorth> but it's well done
19:50:44  <frosch123> anyway, i am surprised the manual is in english
19:50:50  <frosch123> i expected it to be french
19:52:20  <andythenorth> do we think this can be merged?
19:53:01  <andythenorth> I dislike have a stack of branches merged when I want to test PRs
19:53:06  <andythenorth> bit unclean
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20:17:21  <planetmaker> I would not object it... but I cannot judge it either.
20:17:30  <planetmaker> So... dunno... yes?
20:25:36  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] orudge commented on pull request #6917: Fix iconv and clang version detection on OSX
20:26:30  <orudge> I don't see the harm in merging it, I can't see that targetting C++11 is much of an issue these days. The latest versions of gcc can be used on DOS (DJGPP) and OS/2, so that's kind of my benchmark ;)
20:27:05  <nielsm> what about compilers targeting win9x?
20:27:31  <nielsm> otoh a DOS build might be just as good there
20:27:52  <orudge> The Win9x build uses mingw32
20:27:57  <orudge> which shouldn't be a problem either I'd have thought
20:32:10  <andythenorth> thanks orudge
20:35:20  <nielsm> maybe I should try setting up a build env for win9x and testing whether the new music code works as intended there...
20:35:38  <orudge> I have a Win9x VM knocking around somewhere, been a while since I've fired it up though
20:36:05  <nielsm> I have a real machine with 95 and Me installed beside me
20:37:43  <orudge> That would probably be better for testing then ;)
20:40:40  <nielsm> well it's a horrible via epia cpu/board that seems to have slightly weird timings on some of the onboard devices
20:41:04  <nielsm> feels less compatible than a proper retro-pc should be
20:41:32  <nielsm> and only has a single pci slot so can't use any of my old isa sound cards :(
20:51:33  <nielsm> unrelated, consider watching this driver's view monorail ride:
20:59:14  <andythenorth> suspended monorail
20:59:18  <andythenorth> will never not freak me out
20:59:35  <nielsm> it's a very smooth ride, actually
21:00:00  <nielsm> (I've taken that exact route myself, once, this april)
21:02:24  <nielsm> easy to fall asleep on... I didn't see much of the view in person :(
21:02:48  <andythenorth> why bother with suspended?
21:02:49  * andythenorth wonders
21:04:15  <nielsm> something with ground footprint or free height below, perhaps, not sure
21:04:55  <nielsm> though non-suspended monorail ought to have the same footprint
21:05:52  <andythenorth> and less fally-downy-ness
21:09:36  <andythenorth> I have drawn a horrible sprite
21:09:40  <andythenorth> I should do better :P
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21:16:59  <dwfreed> suspended monorail is a lot easier to switch
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21:55:31  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] orudge approved pull request #6917: Fix iconv and clang version detection on OSX
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22:40:49  <Wolf01> 'night
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22:52:02  <planetmaker> do our build tools support C++11?
22:54:39  <Eddi|zuHause> i think that question is backwards
22:54:59  <dwfreed> not really
22:55:22  <Eddi|zuHause> the problem is not really "does openttd build with C++11", but "do we want to scrap building without C++11"
22:56:11  <Eddi|zuHause> as in "which platforms would we exclude that have no working C++11 compiler"
22:56:46  <dwfreed> do all the platforms on which openttd builds and maintainers care about have a working C++11 compiler?
22:58:12  <Eddi|zuHause> exactly. the question is who defines those two sets of platforms?
23:00:25  <dwfreed> according to the about page, win9x era is supposed to still be supported, so I don't think C++11 is going to work there
23:00:30  <orudge> The list on the wiki has the usual suspects as supported (, none of which I think should be problematic. (I'm not sure Solaris should count as supported, unless anybody is actually supporting it)
23:00:50  <orudge> dwfreed: OpenTTD should still build with mingw32 on Win9x
23:01:33  <orudge> or at least, the binary generated by mingw32 should run on Win9x. I don't know for sure if a suitable version of mingw itself will work.
23:01:35  <Eddi|zuHause> ok, so i enabled compositing just for fun, and immediately see why i disabled it the last time... with compositing enabled, there's this weird delay between making firefox/youtube fullscreen and the video being shown
23:01:43  <dwfreed> there's probably a lot of C++11 things that aren't going to work in Win9x
23:02:08  <Eddi|zuHause> dwfreed: how are those things related?
23:02:41  <dwfreed> mingw32 probably dropped support for Win9x, and subsequently builds aren't going to run there
23:03:14  <dwfreed> so you have to decide if you want C++11 more or Win9x support more
23:03:28  <Eddi|zuHause> are you just speculating now?
23:04:22  <dwfreed> making educated guesses based on what I know about the featureset of C++11, the state of compiler development, and the internels of Windows pre-Windows 2000
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23:08:32  <orudge> It looks like whether it will work will depend on the exact C++11 feature in use, and whether the C++ runtime DLLs are statically linked into OpenTTD or not (the dynamic versions would appear not to work)
23:09:45  <orudge> Either way, the number of Win9x users is probably fairly minimal, and I'm sure if somebody is very determined to get the newest versions of OpenTTD to work on Win9x, they will find a way. I can imagine the benefits for developers of C++11 would outweigh the few Win98 users.
23:12:57  <dwfreed> honestly, dropping all but win 7+ support would make a lot of sense; call it 2.0 :)
23:14:13  <Eddi|zuHause> concerning solaris, maybe we should add a category for "someone once managed to run it on ..."? :p
23:14:27  <orudge> Vista is I think the cut-off for modern versions of Visual C++
23:15:15  <Eddi|zuHause> i think last time we cut off at WinXP SP2, and moved over some older versions of XP to "use the 9x version instead"
23:15:30  <orudge> The amusing thing is that we could, in theory, still provide an MS-DOS version using DJGPP and Allegro (although whether Allegro 4.0 still works with modern DJGPP I don't know)
23:15:40  <orudge> I once got networking to work (to some degree) on DOS too, using WATTCP
23:15:49  <orudge> Fun times
23:16:10  <Eddi|zuHause> i think someone messed around with dos builds about a year ago? might have been two
23:16:46  <Eddi|zuHause> something (probably age) is messing with my perception of timeframes
23:17:04  <Eddi|zuHause> things that i imagine as "last year" turn out to be "8 years ago"
23:17:43  <orudge> In other news, I've submitted an official version of OpenTTD to the Windows Store, as we have a relatively constant stream of people saying "hey, did you know somebody is selling OpenTTD in the Windows Store". It's not a UWP app, it's just the OpenTTD 1.8.0 binary distribution wrapped up.
23:18:03  <Eddi|zuHause> sounds fine to me
23:18:17  <Eddi|zuHause> did we pay something for that?
23:18:18  <orudge> Unfortunately it can't actually be called "OpenTTD" because that other person has that name, and unless they wish to voluntarily relinquish it, we will be "OpenTTD (official)"
23:18:47  <orudge> Eddi|zuHause: I think there was a  signup fee or something like that, but I don't believe there are any other fees.
23:19:14  <dwfreed> orudge: I worked for a school district in 2009 that had a boot CD of IPX drivers for MS-DOS so they could get a Novell NetWare client up and running for Norton Ghost
23:19:19  <ST2> @orudge: I've already reported that version (as a W10 user) - despite that I compile my OpenTTD's :)
23:19:48  <dwfreed> (their regular system login was netware too; they stored their ghost images on netware shares)
23:20:04  <orudge> ST2: yes, I think a few people have. The problem is that it doesn't actually violate the GPL, it's just annoying that they don't at least rename the app to indicate that it is not official.
23:20:19  <orudge> I did report it to Microsoft 'officially' but they say they couldn't/wouldn't do anything
23:20:43  <dwfreed> orudge: sounds like you need to make an OpenTTD Foundation and trademark the OpenTTD name
23:21:00  <ST2> anyway, not to mess on the middle of current chat, but keeping compatible way backwards won't stop (or stall) future devellopments?
23:21:14  <Eddi|zuHause> technically, trademarks don't need to be registered, but you may have a more difficult time in court
23:21:17  <ST2> (just a thought, no knowledge to judge)
23:21:45  <dwfreed> Eddi|zuHause: trademarks do need to be registered (in the US; it's copyright that doesn't)
23:21:53  <orudge> Plus given Transport Tycoon is still being sold on iOS, etc, I'm not sure what the legal implications, etc, might be, if any. Either way, I don't have time to run a foundation, but if anybody else wants to, feel free :)
23:22:16  <Eddi|zuHause> dwfreed: i'm fairly sure we can go with european law
23:22:55  <orudge> ST2: I think there are things that could be easier using C++11 (and indeed C++14 and C++17), and there are various custom-written classes in OpenTTD that could be replaced with off-the-shelf constructs. It wouldn't necessarily inhibit things, but it wouldn't necessarily help either...
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23:48:58  <LordAro> C++11 has been required (in at least 2 places) for about 6 months now
23:49:11  <LordAro> you could say 6917 is just bringing the build system into line
23:50:07  <LordAro> and yes, C++11 (and beyond, but mostly 11) allows a lot of things that were previously reasonably hackily implemented by OTTD
23:50:13  <LordAro> less code means less bugs
23:50:20  <LordAro> overall

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