Log for #openttd on 9th December 2018:
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00:00:25  <glx> yeah a conflict with mingw32 api
00:00:47  <glx> In file included from D:/developpement/GitHub/OpenTTD/src/os/windows/win32.cpp:23:
00:00:47  <glx> D:/developpement/GitHub/OpenTTD/src/fios.h:197:20: error: 'SORT_ASCENDING' conflicts with a previous declaration
00:00:47  <glx>   SORT_ASCENDING  = 0,
00:00:47  <glx>                     ^
00:00:47  <glx> In file included from H:/msys64/mingw64/x86_64-w64-mingw32/include/shlobj.h:124,
00:00:49  <glx>                  from D:/developpement/GitHub/OpenTTD/src/os/windows/win32.cpp:20:
00:00:49  <glx> H:/msys64/mingw64/x86_64-w64-mingw32/include/shobjidl.h:6411:5: note: previous declaration 'tagSORTDIRECTION SORT_ASCENDING'
00:00:51  <glx>      SORT_ASCENDING = 1
00:00:51  <glx>      ^~~~~~~~~~~~~~
00:01:09  <glx> and the same with SORT_DESCENDING
00:01:47  <LordAro> heh
00:02:18  <LordAro> OTTD_SORT_ASCENDING ?
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01:45:35  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 opened pull request #6987: Fix: [Win32] WIN32 may not be defined, always prefer the compiler preā€¦
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01:55:53  <Eddi|zuHause> error: 'SORT_ASCENDING' conflicts with a previous declaration <- yay for namespaces? :p
01:56:45  <Eddi|zuHause> or just #undef it :p
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08:36:41  <andythenorth> moin
08:39:42  <nielsm> lo
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10:54:08  <planetmaker> o/
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12:26:52  <Wolf01> o/
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12:34:43  <andythenorth> maybe Horse has too many trains?
12:34:55  <andythenorth> why does no-one ever make smaller newgrfs?
12:34:56  <Eddi|zuHause> too many, too few, everything?
12:35:22  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think there's a "just the right amount"
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12:43:30  <andythenorth> :)
12:43:51  <andythenorth> I am +1
12:44:04  <andythenorth> Horse is 'too big' for current game because town density is very low
12:44:23  <andythenorth> so pax trains that are small / high density are irrelevant :)
12:44:30  <andythenorth> meanwhile I wish I could figure out how to unbreak supplies
12:46:19  <planetmaker> <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think there's a "just the right amount" <-- yep, exactly
12:46:57  <planetmaker> "too big" is relative, though. People can filter vehicles... so... not sure it can be 'too big'. It's mostly the one-time effort to setup filters
12:47:40  <nielsm> ehh, there isn't real filters is there? as in "don't show me trains with less than 1000 hp" etc
12:48:11  <nielsm> just hiding individual models
12:48:20  <andythenorth> I've been wondering about filters
12:48:34  <andythenorth> I have grouped engines into classes, which I could expose to a property
12:48:45  <andythenorth> but then...other newgrfs :P
12:49:26  <nielsm> also I've mentioned this before, but having "introductory new technology premium" on (some) vehicle prices, e.g. when the first really fast passenger train is introduced it starts insanely expensive, but the price actually falls over time as the technology enters real mass manufacture
12:49:48  <nielsm> that could help make more variety more viable, I think
12:50:14  <andythenorth> fairly certain that can be done in newgrf
12:50:40  <andythenorth> it would be better to have some kind of tech tree
12:51:09  <andythenorth> so technology can be early stage / mature / legacy
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12:52:11  <nielsm> yes so maintenance costs of steam engines go through the roof as the world moves on
12:52:53  <andythenorth> that's modelled by reliability in current game
12:53:08  <andythenorth> but reliability is irrelevant because breakdowns have to be off
12:53:22  <nielsm> (it annoys me playing multiplayer where some insist on having "vehicles never expire" on, combined with no breakdowns, just so they can keep having steam running around everywhere in 2020)
12:53:30  <andythenorth> * accuracy: breakdowns have to be off if you use road vehicles
12:54:14  <andythenorth> one day I'll find a savegame which shows why breakdowns are broken :P
12:54:25  <andythenorth> also I'll figure out why cdist is broken
12:54:34  * andythenorth been saying that for years
12:54:41  <nielsm> breakdowns as implemented, both "normal" and "reduced", are unfun to play with
12:55:00  <nielsm> bullshit difficulty
12:55:02  <andythenorth> well
12:55:19  <andythenorth> for trains they're trivial to avoid, you just force servicing with signals
12:55:35  <andythenorth> for RVs they're stupid, because RVs can't find a depot without explicit orders
12:55:51  <andythenorth> and explicit orders for servicing is boring
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12:56:21  <andythenorth> also trains can't find a depot if their PBS reservation takes them past it
12:56:35  <andythenorth> they don't trigger a re-route when service is needed (or forced by player)
12:57:41  <nielsm> afaik the problem is that the pathfinder doesn't have a way to search for a route while ignoring the train's own reservation, but taking every other reservation into account
12:57:53  <nielsm> haven't looked at it really, just imagining things
12:58:08  <andythenorth> makes sense
12:58:36  <andythenorth> so the 2020 thing, you'd rather there was no steam, or you'd rather there was a better way to scale vehicle dates? o_O
12:58:49  <nielsm> so you'd have to cancel the reservation to pathfind, but then things might change in front of the train during that
12:59:16  <nielsm> I'd rather that players were punished for using out of date vehicles even with breakdowns off
12:59:55  <nielsm> maybe even something simple like maintenance costs is scaled by the inverse of reliability
13:00:09  <nielsm> (for some appropriate inverse)
13:00:22  <andythenorth> pikka scaled running costs
13:00:26  <andythenorth> by date
13:03:07  * andythenorth still wonders about a parameter for scaling intro dates
13:03:24  <Eddi|zuHause> isn't that what inflation was meant to do?
13:03:30  <nielsm> also you know what, I've realised what part of my issue with the town passenger generation patch is
13:03:55  <nielsm> it's that passenger generation doesn't depend on how many places you can go
13:04:17  <nielsm> I should get more passengers if I can take them to more places
13:05:12  <nielsm> of course, that would mean passengers need to have a destination in mind before they pick a station to start at
13:05:34  <nielsm> completely destroying the premise of cdist
13:06:05  <nielsm> (that's how simutrans and transport fever work)
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13:06:46  <nielsm> also, passengers should always pay per leg individually, instead of for the entire trip at the end
13:06:55  <andythenorth> cdest :P
13:06:59  <andythenorth> yacd :P
13:07:28  <andythenorth> michi_cc can explain why yacd failed on performance issues :)
13:07:28  <Wolf01> Agreed
13:07:32  <nielsm> I wasn't around when those were being tested
13:07:44  <andythenorth> I played yacd completely for about a year
13:07:45  <nielsm> so know nothing about them expect they existed
13:07:47  <andythenorth> it was great
13:08:00  <andythenorth> everything had a destination
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13:08:17  <andythenorth> and the destinations were really appropriately scaled
13:08:59  <andythenorth> cdist is ok, and fonso gave a lot of help and bug fixes for me
13:09:17  <andythenorth> but cdist I have to adapt play style a lot, just to get the benefit of automated transfers
13:09:21  <andythenorth> which is all cdist is
13:10:07  <nielsm> cdist models "something", it just doesn't model how things actually move
13:10:16  <nielsm> especially not passengers
13:11:27  * andythenorth wonders if 'no loading' could be made a default on orders :P
13:11:35  <andythenorth> it's tedious setting it for every destination station
13:11:57  <nielsm> hm I suppose the issue with having passengers paying per leg is intentionally setting up infinite loops generating money for moving passengers nowhere in particular
13:12:15  <nielsm> but then you'd just have to qualify those payments on playing with cdist and not using forced unload
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13:15:22  <nielsm> if "manual" setting in cdist meant that you could actually manually specify a distribution scheme (e.g. a flag on timetable per cargo type, "this cargo type is unloadedd as much as possible as early as possible" or "this cargo type is evenly distributed among all accepting stations on the rest of the list")
13:15:25  <nielsm> that would also be nice
13:16:12  <nielsm> or maybe rather per station that receives the goods from production, you can choose per cargo produced whether it's arbitrary distribution or pre-determined destinations production
13:16:37  <nielsm> possibly even choose which destinations are allowed by an inclusion or exclusion list
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13:17:50  <nielsm> I think that might actually be the sanest approach, add a button next to produced cargoes in the station window, where you can set distribution settings for that cargo from that station
13:19:23  <andythenorth> nielsm: o_O
13:19:29  <andythenorth> or on the shared order group?
13:19:37  <andythenorth> 'routes'
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13:28:08  <michi_cc> nielsm: Grab a binary from and see how you like it :) Infos on required settings at
13:29:14  <michi_cc> YACD is nice but needs lots of CPU power. Unfortunately, threading it is hard(tm), quite in contrast to the abstract cdist flow graph updates.
13:34:19  <andythenorth> YACD causes some awesome pax networks to get built
13:35:35  <nielsm>
13:35:41  <nielsm> there's a concept
13:36:16  <andythenorth> it's plausible
13:37:22  <nielsm> and maybe having an "eyedropper" tool for adding stations instead of typing in names ;)
13:37:30  <nielsm> (similar to building orders lists)
13:38:36  <andythenorth> I used to think this would be horrible micro-management
13:38:41  <andythenorth> but if the defaults are good...
13:39:14  <nielsm> like, if a grf could specify that certain cargo types prefer cdist...
13:39:22  <andythenorth> my objections to cdist are individually minor
13:39:32  <andythenorth> - have to use 'no loading' order to prevent backrouting
13:39:35  <nielsm> or maybe making "supplies" an actual separate cargo class
13:39:37  <andythenorth> - pax is a mess
13:39:46  <andythenorth> - no incentive to connect pax or mail networks
13:40:05  <andythenorth> - have to use one station per destination as pickup from industries
13:40:33  <andythenorth> the automated transfer part is pretty good
13:42:57  <andythenorth> the last one is the worst, having to use one station per destination
13:44:15  <nielsm> not sure I understand what you mean
13:44:35  <nielsm> the destination is a station and not a building?
13:45:01  <nielsm> i.e. it should be able to route to any station that services the building, not just one particular station
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13:48:21  <andythenorth> if a pickup station has one established route, and a second is added
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13:48:31  <andythenorth> it takes 3-6 months for cargo to be allocated to the second route
13:48:59  <andythenorth> adding a third or fourth route often seems to fail completely
13:49:04  <nielsm> also not very related, I just felt like I had to share a picture of this thing I've had open for several days now:
13:49:25  <andythenorth> I've tried fonso's tips for forcing a re-calculation, e.g. running trains empty to the destination etc
13:50:08  <andythenorth> this can be avoided by simply building a new unconnected station
13:52:00  <andythenorth> means I end up with a lot of stations around some industries
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13:52:28  <andythenorth> spreadsheet has a lot of 0s nielsm o_O
13:52:29  <andythenorth> what is it?
13:52:54  <nielsm> it's a simulation of yet another potential way to generate town cargo
13:53:30  <nielsm> zeroes are when column A value < row 1 value
13:53:39  <nielsm> and otherwise it's the column B value
13:53:45  <andythenorth> what are the factors? o_O
13:54:00  <nielsm> the sum in row 2 is the sum of all the values below
13:54:57  <nielsm> column A and B are generated in python as:
13:54:57  <nielsm> collections.Counter((random.randrange(1,257)*random.randrange(1,257)//256 for i in range(1000000)))
13:56:15  <andythenorth> so is each subequent row a dice roll for pax generation?
14:01:20  <nielsm> I suppose it was just an experiment with a way to generate a sqrt() shaped distribution
14:01:29  <nielsm> which might or might not be a good idea
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14:34:26  <andythenorth> hmm
14:34:33  <andythenorth> would be really nice to finish nml industries
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15:27:25  <glx> ok with some changes compilation is ok using with mingw-w64 but fails to link
15:28:29  <glx> unless I build without freetype
15:38:59  <michi_cc> Seeing that libharfbuzz isn't linked by us, I'd guess there's some stuff-up on the lib side.
15:39:19  <glx> it comes with freetype package
15:40:14  <LordAro> glx: istr having the same issues last time i tried to compile on mingw
15:40:56  <LordAro> ah, i even put it on the wiki!
15:41:31  <LordAro> not that the error seems all that relevant here
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15:53:42  <glx> probably because present since harfbuzz 1.7.7
15:55:36  <andythenorth> I am seeing white flashes / glitches on mac OS
15:55:45  <andythenorth> occasional, very short, not quite full screen
15:55:56  <andythenorth> on head of master
15:55:58  <andythenorth> just me?
15:57:20  <LordAro> glx: that's... weird
15:59:15  <glx> so should be in mingw package since jun 7 with 1.8.0
15:59:36  <glx> before it was still 1.7.5
16:00:38  <LordAro> i don't understand why they would define those functions like that
16:00:45  <LordAro> how would that ever work?
16:01:04  <glx> especially in a lib
16:01:09  <glx> that's stupid for me
16:02:11  <LordAro> i'm not seeing any raised issues about it, weirdly
16:02:30  <glx> I think it works in shared lib, but it's completly wrong for a static one
16:02:33  <LordAro> is it because it's compiled statically, i wonder?
16:02:36  <LordAro> yeah
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16:03:46  <glx> even memory checkers don't do it that way IIRC
16:04:03  <glx> and they hijack all these calls
16:14:44  <glx> strange, yesterday I tried removing -lstdc++ or adding -Wl,--allow-multiple-definition, linking was ok but running crashed, today it works
16:17:41  <glx> but some characters look ugly compared to the msvc build
16:17:53  <LordAro> heh
16:18:10  <glx> using the same openttd.cfg
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16:28:37  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: are you playing WoT Blitz?
16:28:49  <andythenorth> someone in my game had your nick :P
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16:52:22  <glx> tried non static builds, compiles fine, same ugly characters
16:52:44  <glx> something is clearly wrong in mingw-w64 freetype build
16:55:11  <michi_cc> glx: Try with :) You might have to fix some WIN32's though.
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17:38:35  <glx> with msvc I see no differences in drawing, waiting for mingw-w64 build (it's slow)
17:39:41  <glx> and of course I use --without-freetype ;)
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18:05:19  <glx> michi_cc: with your work mingw-w64 looks better
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18:26:21  <Wolf01> <andythenorth> someone in my game had your nick :P <- and killed you with no mercy?
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19:21:56  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: wasn't me
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19:44:11  <Wolf01> There's one frosch right now in destiny too :P
19:49:22  <Eddi|zuHause> but there must have been at least another 122 frosches before him
19:54:23  <Wolf01> Also wolves and Eddis :P
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20:53:12  <andythenorth> hmm
20:53:44  <andythenorth> how about flagging one train in a group as 'all other trains should match this'
20:53:45  <andythenorth> ??
20:54:17  <andythenorth> instead of having template trains, and how-to-build-trains-without-a-depot and newgrf cb madness and so on
20:54:28  <andythenorth> worse is better
20:54:33  <frosch123> simutrans routes
20:55:08  <frosch123> anyway, everything breaks with refit orders :)
20:55:09  <andythenorth> are they good?
20:55:29  <frosch123> no idea, i have not touched simutrans in 13 years?
20:57:04  <nielsm> I'm guessing similar to transport fever too, you define a route and then assign trains to that route
20:57:23  <nielsm> and train replacement is also done on a route basis
20:57:25  <frosch123> what's the matching order term for "bridge over everything"
20:57:38  <frosch123> "order anything"?
20:58:14  <nielsm> universal orders?
20:58:33  <frosch123> andythenorth: most games do 1. orders, 2. assign vehicles to orders
20:58:52  <andythenorth> that's very logical
20:58:56  <andythenorth> I like our way :P
20:59:01  <frosch123> ottd and factorio do the reverse: 1. vehicles, 2. assign orders, 3. try to sync orders between vehicles
20:59:33  <frosch123> (for factorio, 3. requires a mod)
20:59:37  <andythenorth> I think we're pretty good
20:59:56  <andythenorth> I only want templates when consist length needs to change
20:59:56  <frosch123> another "bug" factorio copied from ottd :)
20:59:58  <nielsm> railroad tycoon had per-train orders, transport tycoon did roughly the same, simutrans came along and fixed it
21:00:12  <andythenorth> RT3 dispensed with orders
21:00:19  <andythenorth> it had a mad dispatcher system that was amazing
21:00:25  <frosch123> railroad tycoon allowed only like 32 trains or something
21:00:40  <andythenorth> I can make consists shorter, but not longer with rules :P
21:00:40  <nielsm> yeah original RRT was land of limits :)
21:00:48  <andythenorth> 'remove vehicles' is really clever
21:01:01  * andythenorth wonders about silly rule-based auto-replace
21:01:06  <frosch123> oh, right,... there were sequels, never played them, only version 1
21:01:08  <andythenorth> 'replace with 3 of x'
21:01:23  <nielsm> andythenorth that's why I'm suggesting regex for trains
21:01:30  <andythenorth> sed :P
21:01:37  <nielsm> yes
21:01:48  <andythenorth> python list comprehension
21:01:56  <andythenorth> actually that would be fine :P
21:01:59  <andythenorth> code golf
21:02:21  <nielsm> nah actual solution is to merge the shunting patch, then use conditional orders to have trains rebuild themselves
21:02:23  <andythenorth> [b for x in train if x is aj
21:02:37  <andythenorth> nielsm: oof, that might be mornington crescent
21:02:53  <andythenorth>
21:03:06  <andythenorth> the most complex game to explain to non UK people :P
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21:19:49  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc updated pull request #6980: GDI engine for font glyph rendering as a replacement for FreeType
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21:40:20  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] ldpl commented on pull request #6986: Allow the center tile to always get a house when playing with 3x3/Better
21:46:11  <nielsm> that pretty much shoots down that PR as it is
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