Log for #openttd on 29th December 2018:
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05:56:07  <Alberth> moin
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07:06:52  <andythenorth> early start Alberth? o_O
07:07:51  <Alberth> not quite, I got up about an hour earlier :)
07:08:21  <Alberth> that's normal for me
07:09:24  <Alberth> looked at some 2nd bananas, and apparently there is code for a db, and some code for reading file data
07:09:42  <Alberth> ie newgrf, savegames, etc
07:13:11  <andythenorth> I asked frosch if he wanted any help
07:13:20  <andythenorth> a few months ago
07:13:29  <Alberth> ah
07:13:37  <andythenorth> he said it was going ok and he didn't want to work with anyone else right now :)
07:14:19  <andythenorth> I have fixed the power display for multi-mode engines
07:14:21  <andythenorth>
07:14:27  <andythenorth> I used comic sans for emphasis of the change
07:15:04  <andythenorth> the diff for the newgrf part will be *really* big :P
07:15:35  <Alberth> makes sense
07:16:01  <andythenorth> the answer was right there already :P
07:16:08  <andythenorth> Max. Tractive Effort :P
07:16:37  <Alberth> don't know if openttd can detect cghanges, or it would need a flag to indicate this
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07:17:42  <andythenorth> I would just change the string permanently
07:17:58  <Alberth> likely, neat solution andy!
07:18:19  <andythenorth> there's usually a way :P
07:18:49  <Alberth> finding the way is always the problem :)
07:19:00  <Alberth> especially when hidden in plain sight :p
07:20:23  <andythenorth> reminds me of this one
07:20:37  <andythenorth> I should finish the patch for that :P
07:20:57  <andythenorth> the simplest fix :P
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07:29:29  <Alberth> not sure that exact speed is that interesting imho
07:30:46  <andythenorth> it's not, but it looked like such an easy fix :)
07:30:52  <andythenorth> just my C++ isn't very good :P
07:31:44  <Alberth> I somewhat expect something before the speed tbh
07:32:20  <Alberth> it's a bit weird to start with a number
07:32:58  <Alberth> maybe truncate the destination text instead?
07:33:18  <Alberth> Heading for New ..., 50mph
07:33:37  <andythenorth> oh we already use 'Max. Speed' also, in the vehicle info window :P
07:33:46  * andythenorth looking at strings for the other issue
07:34:00  <Alberth> and max reliability :)
07:41:47  * andythenorth trying to trigger an exclusive vehicle preview window
07:43:27  <Alberth> rig the code to only give previews to you :)
07:44:48  <andythenorth> currently running a game on ffwd :P
07:46:12  <andythenorth> oof I missed it
07:47:03  <andythenorth> got it
07:58:51  <andythenorth> oh
07:58:54  <andythenorth> git is broken :o
08:00:11  <peter1138> Herp derp.
08:00:22  <peter1138> Yeah, vehicle speed isn't really important?
08:00:47  <andythenorth> it is when debugging newgrfs :P
08:01:10  <andythenorth> so why is git broken now?
08:01:15  <andythenorth> I just wanted to commit
08:01:52  <andythenorth> Don't run this script from the command line.
08:01:53  <andythenorth>  (if you want, you could supply GIT_DIR)
08:02:04  <andythenorth> some kind of hook to prevent commits?
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08:06:41  <andythenorth> seems I have openttd_hooks in the expected location
08:06:49  <andythenorth> removing it solves the problem :P
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08:17:39  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth opened pull request #6997: Change: show 'Max. Power' for vehicles rather than 'Power'
08:22:16  <andythenorth> who got 6996? :P
08:22:22  <andythenorth> I wanted that number :P
08:22:38  <andythenorth> oh it was TB
08:22:49  <Alberth> :)
08:22:58  <planetmaker> moin
08:23:51  <andythenorth> hi planetmaker
08:24:00  <nielsm>  -- is it really considered a bug when the savegame possibly has bad data in it? re. peter's comment on 2017-03-13
08:28:04  <andythenorth> I can't see it getting fixed
08:28:13  <andythenorth> it's not like we have 10s or 100s of these reports
08:28:16  <planetmaker> pro'ly difficult
08:28:22  <andythenorth> I would close it TBH
08:28:45  <planetmaker> edge case of backward bug-for-bug compatibility
08:29:22  <nielsm>
08:29:35  <nielsm> the tile in question renders right, it seems
08:29:50  <andythenorth> sunspots
08:29:59  <andythenorth> cosmic ray hit someone's RAM
08:30:04  <andythenorth> magnetic bees
08:30:18  <planetmaker> combination of both :)
08:31:05  <planetmaker> I think the best bug fix there would be to manually fix that savegame somehow and then close the bug
08:31:18  <planetmaker> the 2nd best is just closing the bug
08:33:59  <andythenorth> ooof
08:34:06  <andythenorth> I forgot about intro date randomisation
08:34:18  <andythenorth> so the high speed engine might be built, but no carriage for 17 years or so
08:34:21  <andythenorth> or vice versa
08:34:42  <planetmaker> it's only +-2 years?
08:35:10  <andythenorth> 511 days it seems
08:38:55  <peter1138> I probably have a patch for that.
08:39:05  <nielsm> okay trying to crash the involved train in that bug and see if it's the tile that's broken, or the train that's broken
08:39:08  <peter1138> (Sync intro dates)
08:41:52  <planetmaker> :)
08:47:23  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on issue #6032: Crash while loading savegame from 0.6 in 1.4
08:47:24  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh closed issue #6032: Crash while loading savegame from 0.6 in 1.4
08:50:47  <nielsm> hmm, maybe this could be a useful debugging tool, a "warp vehicle to depot" function? activate the tool from a depot window, click a vehicle in the world or another depot, and the vehicle is instanly moved
09:06:47  <andythenorth> where was that vehicle groups spec for purchase menu? :P
09:06:49  * andythenorth looks
09:09:18  <andythenorth> seems it wasn't
09:09:42  <andythenorth> proposal: vehicles gain a property 'group with [vehicle ID]'
09:10:08  <andythenorth> purchase menu then groups vehicles, under a disclosure widget (+/- thing)
09:10:18  <andythenorth> all vehicles in a group are introduced at same time
09:10:52  <andythenorth> use for liveries, wagons that match specific engine, variable properties (regearing) etc
09:12:17  <andythenorth> alternative proposal specific to intro dates: add a property to sync intro dates :P
09:12:46  <andythenorth> I really like the groups idea, but I think it will make a real headache out of sorting
09:12:56  <andythenorth> sorting on hidden things is always a disaster
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09:25:04  <TrueBrain> sorry for stealing your number andythenorth .. I didn't know :'(
09:25:24  <andythenorth> sad times
09:25:30  <andythenorth> maybe I can get 9669
09:26:28  <TrueBrain> that .... takes a bit of time to get there :P
09:27:54  <andythenorth> patch faster :P
09:31:06  <TrueBrain> naaaahhhh
09:31:07  <TrueBrain> :D
09:32:32  <Gabda> hi everyone!
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09:34:23  <Gabda> can someone help me on how to make a pull request?
09:35:02  <nielsm> probably yes :)
09:35:08  <nielsm> Gabda how far are you?
09:36:28  <Gabda> can we "spam" this channel, or a PM would be better for this?
09:36:43  <nielsm> let's just keep it here
09:36:54  <nielsm> so others can help/learn from it too
09:37:24  <Gabda> ok, we can start from the point when I have a commit in my local repo
09:37:46  <Gabda> I am familiar with Git, but not with github, as I usually use other review system
09:38:08  <nielsm> do you have a fork of openttd on github?
09:38:31  <Gabda> not yet, should I make one?
09:38:34  <nielsm> yes
09:39:00  <nielsm> you add your fork as remote for your local repo, push your branch to your own fork (and set that as upstream for the branch)
09:39:13  <nielsm> then github's web interface should suggest you can create a PR from the fork
09:40:11  <TrueBrain> <- GitHub has awesome guides :)
09:40:33  <Gabda> ok, thank you
09:40:36  <TrueBrain> (feel free to ask questions btw; more meant to say that those guides spend a few more words on how to do stuff :) )
09:41:29  <Gabda> the first guide I found was about PR without forking, and forking to a branch other than master
09:42:00  <Gabda> but as I saw the branches are not active in OpenTTD
09:42:03  <TrueBrain> yeah .. I noticed that too :D
09:42:28  <TrueBrain> and indeed; OpenTTD uses forks instead of branches
09:42:40  <TrueBrain> (like most projects on GitHub .. so that guide is a bit odd :D)
09:43:26  <nielsm> as a side note, most things in a PR can be changed after it has been created, and don't feel shy about force-pushing a massively rebased version of your branch to your own fork on github, it handles that correctly (by updating the PR)
09:44:04  <Gabda> that answers my next question :)
09:44:10  <andythenorth> oof
09:44:27  * andythenorth has become addicted to reset --hard HEAD~n
09:44:35  <andythenorth> because I can hide my mistakes
09:44:40  <andythenorth> if I do that at work, I'm dead :P
09:44:42  <TrueBrain> I dont want to know :P
09:44:43  <Gabda> if I can force push to my own branch at my fork, as it is not nice to amend published commits
09:45:19  <nielsm> github's even smart enough to provide diffs between force-pushed versions
09:45:28  <TrueBrain> nielsm: it does? Since when?! :D
09:45:34  <nielsm> although they don't always make sense
09:45:41  <nielsm> I first noticed it a month ago or so
09:45:48  <TrueBrain> that is awesome!
09:45:57  <nielsm>
09:45:58  <TrueBrain> they was a thing that was lacking on GitHub
09:46:00  <nielsm> in that one for example
09:46:13  <TrueBrain> very cool
09:46:30  <TrueBrain> did notice it showed force-pushes now, but didnt spot that it was a link :)
09:46:39  <andythenorth> it's remarkable
09:46:40  <nielsm> (the change there was just commit message so the diff is empty)
09:47:01  <TrueBrain> gerrit solves that by making the commit message part of the diff :)
09:47:05  <TrueBrain> which is a nice way of doing that
09:47:36  <TrueBrain> okay ... I just noticed we are still running lighttpd on OpenTTD
09:47:39  <TrueBrain> that is ... old!
09:47:41  <TrueBrain> holy crap
09:48:11  <nielsm> lol
09:48:48  <Gabda> it is so much different than gerrit, I will need some time to get used to it
09:49:20  <TrueBrain> gerrit is a HUGE hack on git; so yeah .. the difference between gerrit and any other system is huge :D
09:49:45  <TrueBrain> no more 'refs/for' stuff :P
09:49:46  <Gabda> but at least now I know where can I get help, so thank you guys :)
10:01:33  <andythenorth> hmm
10:01:58  <andythenorth> planetmaker: so I'm using cb36 now to set power on specific wagons
10:02:21  <andythenorth> what's the condition?  (1) Correct engine at the start of the consist?  or (2) Correct engine anywhere in the consist? :P
10:02:41  <TrueBrain> bah; making sure the server listing is still served via the old method but not on www is more difficult than I would like
10:03:44  <nielsm> andythenorth, no way to walk the train to find the first engine in front of the wagon?
10:04:09  <andythenorth> not reliably
10:04:42  <andythenorth> I could use wagon_attach restrictions to reduce the problem
10:04:47  <andythenorth> I just don't like that approach :P
10:05:57  <andythenorth> only allowing the wagons to attach to specific engines avoids 'wrong engine' problem, but it's ugh
10:08:06  <nielsm> query for front engine imo
10:08:14  <andythenorth> makes the most sense
10:08:14  <TrueBrain> okay, new plan of attack: create two (temporary) new flask projects to serve and .. ugh .. why is this so complex :D
10:08:26  <andythenorth> or just crudely use var 60 :P
10:09:16  <nielsm> real world generally demands that all power or steering cars in a train use the same comms protocol as the front engine
10:09:32  <andythenorth> that would suggest wagon attach limits somewhere
10:09:43  <andythenorth> but what if player wants to do this? :P
10:09:44  <andythenorth>
10:10:27  <nielsm> the trainset might just not provide power in that situation?
10:10:48  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the engine queries var 60 for any number of appropriate engines and any number of appropriate wagons, then divides (#wagons)/(#engines) to decide how much to increase his own power?
10:11:16  <andythenorth> good suggestion
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10:12:12  <Eddi|zuHause> the image above is fine, because the lone engine won't take part in additional-wagon-power, so it would be a don't-care in that formula
10:12:42  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Gabda87 opened pull request #6998: Feature #4115: default company colour setting
10:13:37  <Gabda> it seems like the PR is in
10:13:45  <Gabda> thanks for the help
10:13:49  <TrueBrain> nice Gabda :)
10:14:00  <TrueBrain> hmm ... 'magic numbers' .. what is this 16, and where does it come from :D
10:14:13  <Gabda> yep, there is a magic number in it
10:14:21  <Eddi|zuHause> a fair dice roll, obviously?
10:14:49  <Eddi|zuHause> 1d20
10:15:25  <Gabda> I wanted to ask about it in the issue comments
10:15:52  <Gabda> as how likely is for the number of colours in the game to change
10:16:11  <TrueBrain> I would say ... between 0 and 1 :)
10:16:19  <Gabda> and if it is even possible to use that number in the settings ini files
10:16:38  * andythenorth waves at peter1138's group liveries patch :P
10:16:42  <andythenorth> as it recedes into history
10:17:08  <Eddi|zuHause> isn't there an enum for company colours, with a num_colours entry?
10:17:38  <LordAro> should the setting be saved? seems clientside only to me
10:18:04  <TrueBrain> havent touched the code in years, but we used to sync language entries with an enum (and mark the language entries as such)
10:18:21  <TrueBrain> that way who touches the enum knows there are language entries attached to it :)
10:18:49  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: it can join the 32bpp colours patch there?
10:19:34  <TrueBrain> but I leave this to people who actually know the code :D
10:20:23  <andythenorth> future civilisations will unearth peter1138's patch pile :P
10:20:31  <andythenorth> and write PhD theses about it
10:20:35  <andythenorth> or their AIs might
10:20:40  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on pull request #6998: Feature #4115: default company colour setting
10:20:41  <Eddi|zuHause> i haven't looked at the code (or the PR) either, but these "default profile"-type settings need not be saved in the savegame, but somehow need to be transferred to the server on joining a game
10:20:43  <andythenorth> are AIs civilisation?
10:21:24  <TrueBrain> Azure Pipelines is a bit weird ..
10:21:31  <TrueBrain> it still hasnt triggered on this PR
10:21:34  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: "civilisation" is a term mainly used for "we are inside and they are outside"
10:21:44  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: it has no inherent meaning
10:22:01  <andythenorth> so it's a social construct?
10:22:06  <andythenorth> exists only in discourse?
10:22:14  * andythenorth can play post-modernism on demand
10:22:24  <TrueBrain> guess it is based on an old version
10:22:29  <andythenorth> ha ha
10:22:43  * andythenorth wonders if Sid Meier will make "Post-Modernism"
10:22:44  <LordAro> nielsm: last i checked "Feature" is a thing
10:22:50  <nielsm> it is? hmm
10:23:04  <TrueBrain> ah, yes, if you dont have azure-pipelines-ci.yml in your repo, it is just silently ignored
10:23:04  <TrueBrain> nasty
10:23:06  <nielsm> I don't remember it used then
10:23:41  <TrueBrain> not many new features :D
10:23:53  <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: That wouldn't happen if ci-config would be something outside of the repo :p
10:23:57  <TrueBrain>
10:24:35  <Eddi|zuHause> (but i suppose that problem only really exists in a transition period, once enough people have rebased, it'll disappear)
10:24:37  <TrueBrain> I like how even that page is confused about Add/Feature :D
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10:24:52  <Wolf01> o/
10:25:18  <Wolf01> Good, I reconfigured the entire LAN
10:25:31  <TrueBrain> you moved it to a known-bad state now?
10:25:35  <TrueBrain> so you are sure it doesnt work? :D
10:25:39  <Wolf01> Yes
10:25:47  <LordAro> generally "feature" if users are likely to notice it, right?
10:25:51  <andythenorth> "Add" is bollocks
10:26:14  <andythenorth> it's not even consistent with how I was told to do things with hg for coop devzone
10:26:21  <Wolf01> Put the private LAN behind my DDWRT, the modem could be anything and with any IP now
10:26:27  <andythenorth> I was told specifically to make "Add" commits to add new files
10:27:09  <Wolf01> The only downside is that now I have to physically move the eth cable to the modem to be able to change its config
10:27:32  <TrueBrain> I can connect to the internal IP of the modem despite not being on the same subnet :P
10:27:50  <Wolf01> Like... I forgot to set the DMZ towards DDWRT
10:28:00  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, never had that kind of problem
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10:28:13  <Wolf01> Oh, nice, it works
10:28:29  <Wolf01> I can connect to the other subnet
10:29:16  <TrueBrain> because you now have your modem no longer in a bridge, I assume at least, the NAT is doing this for you :P
10:30:26  <Gabda> so Add would be better?
10:30:52  <TrueBrain> Gabda: I think we just agreed we didn't agree what it even means :D
10:30:59  <TrueBrain> Add .. Feature ... :D
10:31:14  <Wolf01> I had real problems trying to set the router wan mode on PPPoE, it couldn't get the IP, then I made it get the wan IP from DHCP
10:31:36  <Eddi|zuHause> i recently had a network where there were multiple modems, and each had the same 169.whatever default IP, it would randomly switch me between the two :p
10:31:54  <Wolf01> Ahah
10:32:14  <Wolf01> Also now I'm able to set static IPs from the router itself
10:32:29  <Wolf01> And leave the entire network on DHCP
10:32:43  <Gabda> TrueBrain: it is hard to follow the conversation :)
10:33:12  <TrueBrain> Gabda: it always id :D
10:33:16  <TrueBrain> s/id/is
10:33:57  <Eddi|zuHause> imho "feature" is better here
10:35:02  <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, the difference between "feature" and "add" should be how prominent it will be displayed in the changelog(.txt)
10:37:26  <Gabda> about the magic number: do you think there is a way to use the size of colour enum in the company_settings.ini?
10:37:55  <TrueBrain> I think the value in the ini is not a real issue, many magic values there. But the one in the if-statement is a bit unclear where it comes from
10:39:24  <Gabda> ok, then I will put random as first, as 0 is a better magic number :D
10:39:59  <TrueBrain> I dont know enough of the code (anymore) to give any sound advise on that :)
10:40:00  <Alberth> company_settings.ini is converted to code before compiling, so you should be able to use enum values
10:40:07  <Eddi|zuHause> Gabda: i think you can use constants in company_settings.ini
10:40:11  <Alberth> ie like all the string names
10:40:54  <Eddi|zuHause> for min/max/default
10:41:01  <Gabda> good point
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10:44:08  <Eddi|zuHause> Gabda: if you put random at 0, you probably need a savegame conversion routine, to move existing savegames up by 1
10:44:18  <Eddi|zuHause> Gabda: better to add new entries at the end
10:44:21  <Eddi|zuHause> to avoid this
10:45:04  <Gabda> as none of the savegames contains this variable, it is not an issue yet
10:45:07  <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, on a more general scope, i think the real value in this setting is for people who often join multiplayer games, so you maybe should get that working
10:45:35  <Eddi|zuHause> Gabda: they don't contain this variable, but they contain company colours
10:46:13  <Eddi|zuHause> Gabda: you could have random as -1, though
10:46:47  <Gabda> -1 is a good idea
10:47:19  <nielsm> that's 255 if you use an unsigned by as storage :)
10:47:44  <nielsm> anyway, the default company color preference shouldn't need to be stored in savegames at all
10:47:50  <nielsm> since it's only relevant during game creation
10:48:21  <Gabda> I think the multiplayer part needs a separate commit, I want this part be nice first
10:48:22  <nielsm> really, it's a client preference and not a game setting
10:49:04  <Gabda> yes, I agree
10:50:44  <nielsm> move it to GUISettings
10:51:23  <andythenorth> oof
10:51:50  <andythenorth> bi-mode engines AND powered wagons? o_O
10:52:14  <andythenorth> the varaction 2 for those is *not* orthogonal :P
10:52:21  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: how is that a problem?
10:52:51  <andythenorth> it's not a problem, it's a design question
10:52:52  <Eddi|zuHause> ok, it might be if you don't think in tree-algorithms :p
10:53:10  <andythenorth> exactly, am I doing a tree
10:53:29  <andythenorth> or am I doing two separate conditional blocks, which cannot be combined?
10:53:54  <Gabda> nielsm: now I see that the GUISettings is for "other stuff" as well, so it is really a good place for it
10:54:40  <Eddi|zuHause> from the root (action3) i would do two layered branches (action2): the first one branches on railtype, and the second makes the calculation for additional power
10:54:56  <Eddi|zuHause> so you have a diesel calculation and an electric calculation action2 in parallel
10:55:39  <Eddi|zuHause> or alternatively, the first action2 pushes a value into temp register, and the second one reads that and multiplies it
10:55:41  <nielsm> well it might get funny if you want to handle the transition from electric to non-electric track such that cars on the elctric part provide more power
10:55:54  <nielsm> and not just based on whether the front engine is on electric track
10:56:06  <Eddi|zuHause> that second approach might make it reusable across multiple engines
10:56:23  <Eddi|zuHause> just change the base power in the temp register
10:57:26  <Eddi|zuHause> (just remember that in nfo/nml syntax, you reverse the order of action2)
10:57:50  *** Progman has joined #openttd
10:57:51  <Eddi|zuHause> (so what i call "first action2" is actually the last one in the code)
10:58:59  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Alberth289346 commented on issue #6966: GSTown.PerformTownAction crashes OpenTTD if called during world generation
10:59:51  <Gabda> I have to go now, thanks again for all the help. I will be back when the modifications are done :)
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11:03:42  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on issue #6966: GSTown.PerformTownAction crashes OpenTTD if called during world generation
11:09:55  <andythenorth> oof
11:10:13  <andythenorth> given a time machine, I might travel back and split 'electrified' out from railtype :P
11:11:00  <nielsm> it's an accessory to the rail, not part of the track itself ;)
11:11:28  <andythenorth> it requires juggling skills :P
11:11:36  <andythenorth> sometimes ELRL vs RAIL is significant
11:11:42  <andythenorth> and sometimes they need to resolve to the same thing
11:11:50  <andythenorth> and that's before considering ELNG :P
11:12:02  <andythenorth> or possible compatible-types crap
11:12:20  <andythenorth> far too late to fix now :D
11:13:07  <nielsm> and then you maybe want to distinguish between catenary and third rail electrification
11:13:41  <Alberth> ugh :(
11:14:05  <andythenorth> people really shouldn't :P
11:42:30  <andythenorth> hmm
11:42:36  <andythenorth> how will varying power by railtype ever work?
11:42:38  <andythenorth> :|
11:42:44  <andythenorth> I don't know all the railtype labels
11:42:50  <andythenorth> so checking them is stupid, no?
11:43:03  <andythenorth> maybe I should disable Horse with railtype grfs
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11:49:47  <andythenorth> yeah bi-mode engines fail with nutracks
11:50:10  <andythenorth> option 1) delete bi-mode
11:50:34  <andythenorth> option 2) keep a list of known railtype grfs, and disable Iron Horse if they're found
11:50:42  <andythenorth> option n) ?
11:50:53  <andythenorth> I fail to understand why we even have a railtype var, it's nonsense :P
11:53:49  <Alberth> use lowest hp for unknown track types?
11:54:20  <andythenorth> I was
11:54:32  <andythenorth> but that has a couple of unwanted results
11:54:47  <andythenorth> railtype grfs that define electrified rails, but my engine doesn't know about them
11:54:52  <nielsm> track type: standard/monorail below/monorail above/vactube; power type: none/AC catenary/DC catenary/DC 3rd rail/DC 4th rail/maglev
11:54:53  <andythenorth> because I can't know about every grf
11:55:16  <andythenorth> and also, for the Max. Power PR, I wanted to default to the maximum power, not min. :P
11:55:20  <nielsm> oh yeah and track gauge: standard/narrow/wide
11:55:39  <andythenorth> I figured out once why railtypes is such a total disaster
11:55:43  <andythenorth> but I always forget
11:56:03  <andythenorth> there is a rationale beyond 'we just got it wrong'
11:56:39  <Alberth> can't have a solution there I think, some one is going to argue electric rail type A != electric rail type B for seom weird RL reason
11:56:40  <nielsm> ttdpatch?
11:58:34  <nielsm> absolutely, within europe you have catenary with DC, 50 Hz AC, and 16.7 Hz AC
11:58:41  <nielsm> and various voltages of each
11:59:21  <Alberth> nice for modelers, disaster for transport tycoons
11:59:59  <andythenorth> I'm sure that the spec is carefully designed to allow railtype authors to take control from vehicle grf authors that they disagree with
12:00:06  <nielsm> you might be able to visually differentiate between AC and DC by the mast designs
12:00:14  <nielsm> but in TTD scale that's a few pixels at most
12:00:16  <andythenorth> I had an insight one day a few years ago
12:01:01  <Alberth> powered track is just powered track, only RL worries about voltages and stuff :)
12:01:10  <andythenorth> e.g. if you want to make two variants of RAIL
12:01:23  <andythenorth> you can't be relying on vehicle newgrfs to help you
12:01:31  <andythenorth> so you have to be able to control everything in the railtype grf
12:01:40  <andythenorth> otherwise you can't impose speed limits on trains
12:01:58  <andythenorth> I'm 99% certain it's designed to achieve letting railtype grf authors speed limit trains
12:02:06  <Alberth> be inocmpatible with all non-cooperating newgrfs :p
12:02:29  <andythenorth> we are where we are
12:02:45  <andythenorth> and where we might be next is 'deleting anything that checks var 4A (railtype)
12:03:04  <Alberth> speed limit is likely the only relevant differentiating notion between a pair of steel bars :p
12:03:16  <andythenorth> speed limits are the dumbest concept
12:03:21  <andythenorth> we already have speed limits on the vehicles
12:03:23  <Borg> guys
12:03:25  <Borg> great job btw
12:03:35  <Borg> OpenTTD 1.8.0 crashes WinXP hard.. very very hard.. blue screen
12:03:41  <Borg> it works correctly on Win2003 tho
12:04:15  * andythenorth might have a toys-out-of-pram moment
12:04:15  <Alberth> always nice if a user app can bring down the OS :p
12:04:23  <andythenorth> both the things I wanted to fix today are ~impossible :P
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12:04:39  <Alberth> productive day andy :)
12:04:46  <andythenorth> I should go back to making industries
12:04:53  <andythenorth> which at least aren't broken
12:05:05  <andythenorth> 'oh but the station grf authors should be able to control cargos'
12:05:05  <Alberth> or simple train newgrfs :)
12:05:06  <andythenorth> GTFO
12:05:11  <andythenorth> :P
12:05:29  <andythenorth> ah simple grfs :)
12:05:53  <Alberth> he is, just be incompatible with what you don't know to be compatible
12:06:07  <Alberth> full control right there
12:07:27  <Alberth> oh, ship grfs are nice too of course :)
12:07:36  <Borg> can anyone tell me diffrence between win9x vs win32 OpenTTD build?
12:07:46  <Borg> size of .exe is significant smaller... 8MB vs 11MB
12:08:52  <nielsm> you mean 64 and 32 bit?
12:09:08  <Borg> no
12:09:29  <Borg> I mean win32 (build for WinXP SP3 and onward) vs win9x (build for Windows95/98/2000)
12:10:04  <nielsm> do they link all the same libraries?
12:10:16  <nielsm> there might be a difference in unicode support (maybe)
12:11:39  <Borg> dunno. whats the differences.. but WinXP SP2 crashes very hard.. 1.7.2 worked fine
12:11:59  <Borg> not a big deal.. of course, u can download win9x version.. but I wonder about differences
12:12:14  <Borg> and performance differences too? are they any?
12:12:16  <nielsm> maybe orudge knows something about it
12:12:39  <nielsm> but I doubt most people here really care about compatibility with 15 year old OS'es by now
12:13:24  <nielsm> are you talking about your own builds, or downloaded builds?
12:13:38  <Borg> downloaded builds
12:13:40  <nielsm> if it's your own builds, what compiler and environment are you using? what standard library are you targeting?
12:13:50  <nielsm> what dependency libraries are compiled in?
12:13:54  <Borg> it seems it might be a good time to build my own environment for OpenTTD building.. using mingw
12:16:23  <Eddi|zuHause> <Borg> dunno. whats the differences.. but WinXP SP2 crashes very hard.. 1.7.2 worked fine <-- i think there was a change where we only support WinXP SP3 with the regular windows build
12:17:20  <andythenorth> so do we have a list of all railtypes?
12:17:40  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: unlikely
12:18:03  <Borg> Eddi|zuHause: yeah.. its from 1.1.3 but so far... those win32 builds were working fine on WinXP SP2 too
12:18:12  <Eddi|zuHause> the "common railtype scheme" already has too many hypothetical railtypes to be unable to list them all
12:18:16  <andythenorth> oh god
12:18:25  <andythenorth> and then this
12:18:31  <andythenorth> this is bluntly moronic
12:18:37  <andythenorth> it's a tragedy of the commons
12:18:46  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: that's why we need a useful fallback mechanism
12:18:54  <Eddi|zuHause> so you can say "any ELRL-ish type"
12:18:58  <Eddi|zuHause> and be done with it
12:19:00  <andythenorth> I agree
12:19:04  <Eddi|zuHause> it will never work otherwise
12:19:08  <andythenorth> do you have any idea at all for how to do that?
12:19:18  <andythenorth> the current set up is prime idiocy
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12:19:39  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: not in a way that would retain existing compatible/powered behaviour
12:19:49  <andythenorth> hmm
12:20:06  <andythenorth> my current inclination really is to just disable horse, and maintain a list of all railtype grfs on bananas
12:20:10  <andythenorth> seems a bit childish
12:21:06  * andythenorth explores
12:21:10  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the alternative approach is to allow articulated vehicles of different railtypes, so you could have one part RAIL and another ELRL, and the ELRL part would only add its power depending on the existing powered mechanism
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12:21:29  <Eddi|zuHause> avoiding all the callback mess
12:21:37  <andythenorth> it's tidy
12:21:40  <andythenorth> but would fail on other things
12:21:45  <andythenorth> articulated vehicles can't be flipped
12:21:52  <andythenorth> articulated vehicles can't be dual-headed
12:22:01  <andythenorth> and articulated vehicles put all the power on the lead unit
12:22:09  <Alberth> wouldn't you havce a callback on the rail and the elrail then?
12:22:20  <andythenorth> eddi is proposing doing it as a prop
12:22:22  <andythenorth> not cb
12:22:28  <andythenorth> AIUI
12:22:36  <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: no, the game already handles that by itself
12:22:46  * andythenorth wonders if all installed railtypes can be inspected in a game
12:22:52  <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: if you put a diesel and an electric engine in one train
12:22:53  <andythenorth> then disable Horse if unknown types are found
12:23:10  <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: it'll have power of diesel on RAIL and power of diesel and electric on ELRL
12:23:14  <Alberth> andy, give up trying to be complete
12:23:30  <andythenorth> I am just testing whether the obvious conclusion can be avoided
12:23:39  <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: zo somewhere you need to handle in the newgrf the amount of power right?
12:23:42  <andythenorth> the obvious conclusion is that the game is hostile to ideas like bi-mode
12:24:04  <andythenorth> which is at least easy to work with :)
12:24:32  <andythenorth> e.g. the multi-cargo articulated vehicles in Horse 1 are just impossible, so they are deleted from Horse 2, it's fine
12:24:52  <Alberth> andy, there are railtypes that you don't know. Use the lowest setting so it works, someone will complain, and you can adapt and release a new version
12:25:15  <andythenorth> that's possible yes
12:25:53  <andythenorth> I am in the rabbit hole of 'how was this supposed to work'
12:25:54  <Alberth> we should have versioning on features :p
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12:26:26  <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: how does that not explode in complexity hell?
12:26:49  <Alberth> likely by dropping old buggy crap :)
12:27:16  <Alberth> which is somewhat problematic under the current policies
12:27:25  <Eddi|zuHause> very
12:28:20  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm starting to hate commercial games because most of them go like "we have this minor update, but you need to start a new game"
12:28:56  <Alberth> if you have a choice when to update, that would be fine
12:29:42  <Eddi|zuHause> some games allow downgrading via steam's "beta" feature
12:30:08  <andythenorth> the thing that's bugging me with railtypes
12:30:24  <andythenorth> is that Eddi|zuHause doesn't have an alternative 'this is how it should have been done' option
12:30:30  <andythenorth> which is unusual
12:30:43  <Wolf01> <Eddi|zuHause> i'm starting to hate commercial games because most of them go like "we have this minor update, but you need to start a new game" <- I thought that was only on early access titles
12:31:01  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i did have that, that's how the standardized scheme got developed
12:31:28  <Xaroth> wait, you found something that Eddi can't complain about?
12:31:40  <Xaroth> surely hell hasn't frozen over just yet?
12:31:47  <Eddi|zuHause> Xaroth: no, that's not what he said
12:31:52  <andythenorth> I was quite precise :P
12:32:01  <andythenorth> eddi often has an idea that leads to a solution
12:32:39  <andythenorth> but this specific problem seems immune to analysis
12:32:51  <Alberth> too complicated
12:32:57  <Eddi|zuHause> it's a bit complex
12:33:01  <andythenorth> and we're potentially replicating it for NRT, if the merge conflicts ever get resolved
12:33:40  <andythenorth> frosch proposed BGT to separate visual appearance from vehicle behaviour
12:33:41  <andythenorth>
12:33:50  <andythenorth> but I'm not sure, it might just be even more complexity?
12:34:15  <andythenorth> there was an implication that BGT could be extended to rail, objects, station etc if it worked
12:34:24  <Eddi|zuHause> that is all nice, but it's only tangential to the current problem
12:34:44  <Eddi|zuHause> which is "how to solve dual power"
12:35:24  <Eddi|zuHause> "... without revamping everything, but just small sprinkles on top of the existing stuff"
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12:42:24  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Alberth289346 opened pull request #6999: Fix #6966: Only allow switching to a valid company.
12:42:53  <andythenorth> option 1) deletee dual power
12:42:56  <andythenorth> -e
12:44:02  <Alberth> not much choice in options, is there
12:44:48  <andythenorth> so far no :D
12:44:53  <Eddi|zuHause> the other 289345 Alberth-s were already taken?
12:45:20  <Alberth> some were, didn't try all of them
12:46:43  <andythenorth> so what problem was I solving?
12:46:53  * andythenorth has lost track
12:47:23  <Alberth> tried several names, all taken, so I wanted to select a free name with a high probability. It worked :p
12:47:24  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: imho it's a valid option to skip dual power for now, most sets won't suffer from the lack of dual power vehicles
12:47:49  <andythenorth> it's quite late in the development to drop them :P
12:47:53  <andythenorth> usually I don't mind deleting
12:48:03  <andythenorth> but there's a lot of work in these, and I like the gameplay
12:48:33  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: in that case, i would just list as many known railtypes as possible, and wait for the complaints
12:48:46  <andythenorth> is there some kind of railtype table?
12:49:03  <Alberth> I think you listed them already? :p
12:49:03  <Eddi|zuHause> other than the two wiki pages? not that i know of
12:49:43  <andythenorth> I mean, is there any way to map railtypes to other railtypes?
12:49:52  <andythenorth> or do I just generate very big switches?
12:50:51  <Eddi|zuHause> just one very big switch that you reuse all over the place?
12:51:12  <Eddi|zuHause> nml still lacking procedure call mechanism i suppose
12:52:20  <andythenorth> what is this supposed to do?
12:52:21  <andythenorth>
12:52:27  <Eddi|zuHause> last time i looked for a workaround for that the problem was you can't pass a switch id in var6x[] syntax
12:52:52  <Alberth> railtype is just a 32 bit number right?
12:53:17  <Alberth> so extract the right letter from the type
12:53:48  <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: you don't have access to the label, you only get the index into the RTT
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12:54:24  <andythenorth> what is the RTT for?
12:54:33  <andythenorth> I cargo-culted the one in Horse
12:54:37  <andythenorth> NFI what it does
12:54:42  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: enumerating the known railtypes
12:54:51  <andythenorth> so does it remap labels?
12:54:55  <Alberth> yep
12:55:22  <andythenorth> so if I map ELRL to e.g. EMED
12:55:27  <andythenorth> I can ignore EMED?
12:55:30  <Alberth> so by carefully making a table, you can use the index to select a part?
12:55:37  <andythenorth> it will just appear as ELRL to my var 4A check?
12:55:52  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: if you define a vehicle, you tell it "this one is powered on railtype #1 and compatible on railtype #0" and the RTT says "railtype #0 is RAIL and #1 is ELRL"
12:55:53  <Alberth> no, it maps from label to a uniq index
12:56:06  <andythenorth> oof
12:56:18  <andythenorth> so I need to just keep a list of railtypes in python and write them all out?
12:56:41  <Eddi|zuHause> somewhat
12:56:42  <andythenorth> seems trivial
12:56:55  <andythenorth> can one railtype grf remove railtypes defined by another?
12:56:58  <andythenorth> remove / over-write?
12:57:03  <Alberth> you can't check the numeric index number?
12:57:14  <andythenorth> dunno :)
12:57:18  <andythenorth> it's all a mystery to me
12:57:33  <andythenorth> there's no proper domain
12:57:48  <andythenorth> I am trying to figure out if I can nerf Horse to just work with the railtypes it supplies
12:57:56  <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: the problem with bi-mode is that you now need to fill the RTT with all known railtypes, which you didn't care about before
12:58:12  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: that is probably too limited
12:58:58  <andythenorth> I was getting away with it before, because only bi-mode engines checked railtype
12:59:01  <Alberth> you need to do that anyway if you ever want to interpret a random railtype
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12:59:11  <andythenorth> and they fell back to lowest value if railtype wasn't ELRL
12:59:26  <andythenorth> now I need to extend it so all engines are potentially checking railtype
12:59:36  <planetmaker> well... yes... RTT is a big "interesting" when it comes to supporting a hell lot of RTs
12:59:57  <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: the main problem is, if your RTT only contains RAIL and ELRL, the callback variable will give you as results "RAIL, ELRL, unknown", and the "unknown" case is problematic, because you cannot distinguish "unknown, but ELRL is powered" and "unknown, but RAIL is powered"
12:59:59  <andythenorth> unrelated, I also need to swap the default power to 'max', not 'min', which also is a problem with the fallback if not ELRL
13:00:13  <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause:   yep
13:00:32  <andythenorth> electrified should have been a flag :P
13:00:41  <Eddi|zuHause> so we nown need this clutch of a bloated RTT
13:00:51  <Alberth> coding meta-information in a label is a very bad idea
13:01:11  <andythenorth> we should have coded cargo class into the cargo labels
13:01:13  <andythenorth> :P
13:01:16  <andythenorth> would have gone well
13:01:32  <Alberth> clearly :)
13:01:46  <Eddi|zuHause> that's the "we should make it worse for someone else so we can feel better" approach
13:01:57  <Eddi|zuHause> which is all the rage nowadays
13:02:21  <andythenorth> anyway it's not changing now
13:02:27  <andythenorth> so really, I just need to accept the broken
13:02:37  <andythenorth> and pick my way through refactoring Horse
13:03:13  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i would at least pick a few additional railtypes, so you have all the infrastructure in place to add some as the complaints come in
13:04:26  <andythenorth> "railtype grfs are not supported, except PIPE"
13:04:26  <Eddi|zuHause> it's pretty easy in nml, as you just add the labels at the end, don't need to give it an ID
13:04:30  <andythenorth> infrastructure in place :)
13:04:44  <andythenorth> PIPE, the only valid railtype grf :P
13:04:47  <planetmaker> RTT suggestion...
13:05:13  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: that's not enough
13:05:51  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: of the [] ones, only one is considered "active", the other ones will return "unknown"
13:06:11  <planetmaker> hm, yes
13:06:28  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: you really need to add all the single labels at the end
13:06:50  <andythenorth> Horse has this currently
13:06:53  <andythenorth> I don't know what it does
13:07:12  <andythenorth> I think it makes metro trains work on ELRL or something
13:07:34  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
13:07:44  <Eddi|zuHause> that is fine for defining vehicles
13:07:51  <Eddi|zuHause> but it is insufficient for bi-mode
13:08:36  <andythenorth> oof, I should avoid European narrow gauge
13:08:43  <andythenorth> bi-mode, but default isn't RAIL :P
13:08:55  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah.
13:11:04  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: what could work is a 6x variant of var4A, that takes a RTT entry as parameter to use instead of the railtype that the vehicle is defined for
13:11:32  <andythenorth> so we map through types?
13:11:43  <andythenorth> and return true if in the list?
13:13:08  <Eddi|zuHause> var4A gives you "this vehicle [defined for ELRL] is currently powered", and this proposed 6x version would be "if this were vehicle defined for ELRL, it would be powered"
13:13:12  <nielsm> elsewhere on the internet, "a holiday themed toy train set look would be amazing"
13:13:23  <andythenorth> :P
13:14:00  <andythenorth> meanwhile
13:16:16  <Eddi|zuHause> var 0x4A has this line: "return (HasPowerOnRail(Train::From(v)->railtype, rt) ? 0x100 : 0) | GetReverseRailTypeTranslation(rt, object->ro.grffile);"
13:16:30  <Eddi|zuHause> just replace v->railtype with the 6x-parameter
13:17:43  <Eddi|zuHause> (the parameter will be the RTT index, not the label, but nml should handle that intuitively correct)
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13:28:08  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Alberth289346 commented on issue #6605: Crash: loading savegame
13:30:48  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Alberth289346 commented on issue #6966: GSTown.PerformTownAction crashes OpenTTD if called during world generation
13:33:05  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: care to test ?
13:34:34  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: use it like "var[0x6a, 8, 0xFF, ELRL]"
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13:34:50  <andythenorth> oops I turned the microwave on :P
13:35:09  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: got my lines?
13:36:35  <andythenorth>
13:36:53  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: use it like "var[0x6a, 8, 0xFF, ELRL]"
13:36:58  <andythenorth> thx
13:37:21  <andythenorth> and then add some types to my RTT for ELRL?
13:37:32  <Eddi|zuHause> no need for that
13:38:15  <Eddi|zuHause> just use the var[] in the callback for bi-mode power
13:38:34  <Eddi|zuHause> no other changes
13:38:38  <andythenorth> oh you've magicked it I see
13:38:58  <Eddi|zuHause> then send the vehicle over some nutracks tracks or something
13:39:04  <Eddi|zuHause> to see what it's doing
13:40:03  <andythenorth> ok I'll test
13:40:07  <andythenorth> thx
13:40:48  <Eddi|zuHause> valid results are 0 (no) and 1 (yes)
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13:42:37  <Eddi|zuHause> also, concerning the microwave issue, is your device capable of 5GHz or only 2.4GHz?
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13:57:32  <andythenorth> I am uncertain :)
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14:01:28  <Eddi|zuHause> it might be called "802.11b/g/n" or "802.11a+n" or something
14:01:39  <Eddi|zuHause> the letters being the important bit
14:02:36  <Eddi|zuHause> the point is, the microwave will probably only disturb one of the two bands
14:02:57  <Eddi|zuHause> 5GHz usually has higher bandwidth, but lower range
14:03:32  <andythenorth> oh the device is dual mode, and prefers 5GHz afaik
14:03:47  <andythenorth> but it's troubled by faraday cages
14:04:27  <Eddi|zuHause> you might want to force it to one of the two, then
14:05:07  <Eddi|zuHause> (or advanced: permanently open both connections with routing fallback)
14:05:44  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: so that patch works at least with RAIL / ELRL
14:05:50  <andythenorth> now I try some railtype grfs
14:07:03  <andythenorth> that's interesting
14:07:07  <andythenorth> it appears to work :)
14:07:58  <Eddi|zuHause> great
14:08:13  <Eddi|zuHause> now convince someone to include it :)
14:08:26  <andythenorth> needs a PR then ;)
14:09:45  <Eddi|zuHause> why did compiling change the *.ob? files?
14:09:54  <Wolf01> Ok, disabling the firewall on the modem worked for port forwarding
14:10:06  <andythenorth> because apparently we haven't set our local .gitignore :P
14:10:20  <andythenorth> I was told that the problem is my system, not our compile
14:10:40  <Eddi|zuHause> that sounds wrong
14:10:41  <andythenorth> until the first new contributor gets told off for pushing them in a PR by accident
14:11:01  <Eddi|zuHause> it's all translation changes
14:11:29  <andythenorth> it makes git add . very unwise :P
14:12:16  <Eddi|zuHause> so... this pr thing... how did i do that last time?
14:13:38  <andythenorth> fork, branch, push, github UI
14:15:41  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Eddi-z opened pull request #7000: Add: Var 6A, a clone of Var 4A for querying poweredness compared to a…
14:16:01  <Eddi|zuHause> maybe that worked?
14:16:14  <Alberth> andy, maybe gitsu could be useful?
14:18:29  <Alberth> how to get the current number of towns?
14:21:37  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Eddi-z commented on pull request #7000: Add: Var 6A, a clone of Var 4A for querying poweredness compared to a…
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14:28:04  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth commented on pull request #7000: Add: Var 6A, a clone of Var 4A for querying poweredness compared to a…
14:30:28  <andythenorth> I can't approve :P
14:30:33  <andythenorth> don't know what else I should check
14:37:45  <LordAro> Eddi|zuHause: grats on getting #7000
14:38:02  <LordAro> andythenorth: ...can you not? i can
14:38:07  <LordAro> i can't merge
14:50:47  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Alberth289346 commented on issue #6605: Crash: loading savegame
14:52:28  <Alberth> next problem, how to find the spot where the town index becomes broken
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15:06:29  <andythenorth> I'm going to approve my own PR
15:06:30  <andythenorth>
15:06:37  <andythenorth> life is too short for all this bureaucracy
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15:14:15  <andythenorth> hmm, without Eddi's patch I don't think I can build a power tree
15:14:36  <andythenorth> there has to be a default value, and that will cause vehicles to be powered on unknown types
15:14:43  <andythenorth> which is correct in some cases and wrong in others
15:15:05  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh approved pull request #6999: Fix #6966: Only allow switching to a valid company.
15:15:47  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh merged pull request #6999: Fix #6966: Only allow switching to a valid company.
15:15:51  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh closed issue #6966: GSTown.PerformTownAction crashes OpenTTD if called during world generation
15:26:06  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: so var 6A would add a parameter to nml vehicle_is_powered var?
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15:41:53  <andythenorth> what is vehicle_is_potentially_powered
15:42:44  <andythenorth> doesn't seem to correspond to var 4A
15:42:51  <andythenorth>
15:44:04  * andythenorth wonders how cb36 power interacts with railtype 'is powered' flag
15:44:40  <andythenorth> does an ELRL vehicle gain power on RAIL if I return > 0 in cb36?
15:46:36  <Eddi|zuHause> no
15:49:42  <andythenorth> I wonder if we need a diagram similar to
15:50:12  <andythenorth> it's very unclear what result is expected for any given combination of railtype grf, rtt, and vars that might be used in cb 36
15:50:19  <andythenorth> oh and vehicle track_type
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15:50:29  <nielsm> lol how does this ever work at all
15:50:30  <andythenorth> which, awesomely, is railtype
15:50:34  <nielsm> looking at those diagrams
15:50:46  <andythenorth> nielsm: well mostly one just doesn't worry about that crap
15:50:54  <andythenorth> I think frosch made it as satire
15:51:13  <andythenorth> the commentary is about as rude as frosch ever talks
15:51:16  <andythenorth> i.e. not
15:53:15  <planetmaker> he... indeed a supposedly simple thing as "vehicle refitting" is as complicated as that diagramme... could be much simpler :)
15:53:53  <andythenorth> given the 5 initial inputs, complexity is inevitable :P
15:54:37  <andythenorth> anyway I can't do this 'wagons add power' stuff with cb36 currently
15:54:44  <andythenorth> owing to failure to understand :P
15:56:34  <planetmaker> the complexity would already be much reduced, if it wouldn't differ by vehicle types :)
16:01:50  <andythenorth> :)
16:02:20  <andythenorth> even with the diagram I dont really understand :)
16:02:35  <andythenorth> I just set capacity with cb36, with specific handling of cargos like mail
16:03:02  <andythenorth> 'just'
16:04:35  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Gabda87 updated pull request #6998: Feature #4115: default company colour setting
16:05:51  <Gabda> no more magic number :)
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16:09:19  <Alberth> nice :)
16:11:33  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Gabda87 commented on pull request #6998: Feature #4115: default company colour setting
16:24:35  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on pull request #6998: Feature #4115: default company colour setting
16:25:48  <planetmaker> nielsm, "Feature #xyz: bla bla" should actually be ok for our commit style
16:26:25  <planetmaker> whether Add: or Feature: is used is more a taste or style thing (Feature for big stuff, Add for small things)
16:28:03  <nielsm> I learned afterwards :)
16:28:42  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Gabda87 commented on pull request #6998: Feature #4115: default company colour setting
16:28:44  <planetmaker> :)
16:32:11  <Gabda> it is a good thing that there are Good first issue flags, it helps a lot get started
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16:43:41  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Gabda87 updated pull request #6998: Feature #4115: default company colour setting
16:48:30  <andythenorth> oops
16:48:45  <andythenorth> what happens in python if functions call each other? :P
16:50:07  <andythenorth> def a(): assert(b); def b(): assert(a)
16:52:48  <Alberth> assert(b)  is true,    assert(b())  does a call :)
16:53:16  <Alberth> but infinite recursion until you hit the infinite recursion limit of 1000 calls
16:53:24  <andythenorth> yeah let's not :)
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16:54:09  <Alberth> I've had longer stack traces :p
16:56:06  <Flipp3rrr> @logs
16:56:06  <DorpsGek> Flipp3rrr:
16:56:07  <Alberth> gabda: some looked more complicated then "good first issue" to me, but ymmv
16:56:19  <andythenorth> contributions are nice :)
16:56:36  <Alberth> always :)
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16:58:37  <andythenorth> maybe we could approve some PRs :P
16:59:08  <Alberth> throw a die :)
16:59:41  <Alberth> eddi has a 1d20 which may come in handy
17:00:00  <andythenorth> we need 28
17:00:06  <Flipp3rrr> What is #openttd.notice ?
17:00:09  <andythenorth> but some are old, so we can ignore those
17:01:20  <Xaroth> closest I have is a D30
17:01:20  <andythenorth> I should try and fix NRT
17:01:23  <Xaroth> ... or a D100.
17:01:45  <andythenorth> NRT is a world of conflicts, and I can't fix them inside a rebase without making a mess
17:01:57  <Alberth> Flipp3rrr:  no idea, probably safe to ignore
17:02:01  <andythenorth> can I do smaller incremental rebases?
17:02:25  <Alberth> git allows it if that's what you mean :)
17:02:33  <Flipp3rrr> Alberth, thanks!
17:02:43  <andythenorth> is it an acceptable tactic?
17:02:58  <andythenorth> there's some stuff I absolutely cannot resolve
17:03:09  <andythenorth> but I could maybe reduce the conflicts for someone else
17:03:16  <Alberth> should I have a go at it?
17:03:21  <andythenorth> it's pretty painful
17:03:24  <nielsm> it might work, but I think most of the conflicts arrive in just very few commits
17:03:31  <Alberth> yeah, conflicts always are
17:03:34  <andythenorth> it's not just choosing which side to take
17:04:43  <andythenorth> this is the most recent rebased fork
17:04:49  <andythenorth> there are about 9 conflicts with master
17:04:52  <Alberth> but basically, git checkout nrt; find a nice next rebase point between the current common ancestor and master, and  git rebase <commit-hash>
17:04:53  <planetmaker> Flipp3rrr, it is - or probably used to be - an IRC channel which announces OpenTTD commits and issues
17:05:28  <andythenorth> there is a docs conflict where the last thinking was to simply throw away the NRT docs
17:05:39  <andythenorth> there is at least one openttd.grf sprite conflict
17:05:49  <andythenorth> which needs photoshop or gimp to resolve :P
17:05:54  <andythenorth> iirc
17:05:59  <Flipp3rrr> planetmaker, I looked at the logs but there's absolutely no activity...
17:06:27  <Alberth> how nice :p  andy
17:06:42  <Alberth> andy, but tomorrow, ok?
17:06:49  <andythenorth> worth a try :)
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17:09:07  <planetmaker> Flipp3rrr, yeah, I recon as much. The bot activity there probably stopped with the move to git - and as such the change of both, bug tracker and CF
17:09:33  <Flipp3rrr> Ok, thanks!
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17:10:21  <andythenorth> oof I should sleep more
17:10:42  <andythenorth> can't even figure out how to return count_veh_id(foo) * power_amount
17:10:50  <andythenorth> I really don't know much nml :P
17:11:43  <andythenorth> do I have to construct a range for each possible value?
17:12:30  <planetmaker> default: return expression
17:13:28  <andythenorth> let's see
17:13:51  * andythenorth often has to look up html and css too :P
17:14:12  <planetmaker>
17:14:37  <andythenorth> I read that :)
17:14:40  <planetmaker> the example there hopefully covers everything, so one doesn't need to look at anything else
17:14:54  <planetmaker> the rest is definitely tldr; ;)
17:14:58  <andythenorth> I just failed to read return (<expression>|<string>);
17:18:35  <andythenorth> "return [1200 + (count_veh_id(foo) * 1200)];" works
17:18:48  <andythenorth> now I just need to do things properly w.r.t the power
17:19:37  <planetmaker> I'm sure that power based on the number of vehicles is a good design :D
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17:19:57  <andythenorth> for this specific type of very high speed train it's interesting
17:20:47  <andythenorth> ok that works now, and is much better than the previous 'drag engines to make the train'
17:20:53  <andythenorth> thanks all :)
17:21:18  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Alberth289346 commented on issue #6605: Crash: loading savegame
17:28:47  <andythenorth> hmm, did "Coefficient of air drag" make it into nml? o_O
17:28:58  <andythenorth> so it did
17:29:43  * andythenorth wonders just how pointless it is
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17:31:40  <Alberth> I see no dots in that description
17:31:53  <planetmaker> I think there are few variables which didn't make it
17:31:55  <planetmaker> very few
17:32:16  <Alberth> hmm, wrong, 2 dots at the i-s
17:32:32  <Alberth> 3 even :p
17:32:47  <andythenorth> I suspect it's a very pointless prop :)
17:33:15  <Alberth> depends on how fast you travel :)
17:33:39  <andythenorth> in the case of the train I am testing, the default would be 8/140
17:33:44  <andythenorth> @calc 8/140
17:33:44  <DorpsGek> andythenorth: 0.0571428571429
17:34:02  <andythenorth> oh it's speed in km/h
17:34:13  <andythenorth> @calc 8/225
17:34:13  <DorpsGek> andythenorth: 0.0355555555556
17:34:20  <andythenorth> setting it to 0 makes no difference :)
17:34:24  <andythenorth> setting it to 1....does
17:35:40  <Alberth> useful for making a train grf for planets with only water at their surface
17:39:23  <Samu> hi
17:39:44  <Samu> is it intended that vehicles don't autorenew when breakdowns are disabled?
17:40:02  <Samu> I suppose it is, but it's just another headache for ais
17:41:20  <planetmaker> Samu, why would you need vehicles to autorenew when they cannot break down
17:42:15  <Samu> as a human, that's cool
17:42:56  <andythenorth> 'AI will take our jobs'
17:43:22  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Alberth289346 commented on issue #6605: Crash: loading savegame
17:44:09  <Alberth> no idea how to proceed now
17:44:37  <andythenorth> in important news, this version of Horse will support this
17:44:50  <andythenorth> almost exactly, except the fake engines are fake
17:45:33  <Alberth> I  do hope you wash the pixels first, they are dirty at the picture
17:47:08  <andythenorth> also this
17:47:16  <andythenorth> although it's....unwise for gameplay :P
17:47:57  <Alberth> pax?!  changing game play eh?
17:48:50  <Alberth> I played with maglev for a change, it's great, no worries about distance any more :)
17:53:03  <andythenorth> magnetic horse
17:53:07  <andythenorth> horselev
17:54:24  <Alberth> zoeeeefffffff-horse
17:55:38  <andythenorth> this works less well when wagons can add power :P
17:55:39  <andythenorth>
17:55:47  <andythenorth> 'Max Power' is also then lies
17:56:54  <andythenorth> alternatives: showing a power range is meaningless if there's no upper bound
17:57:21  <andythenorth> option to hide 'power'?
17:57:37  <andythenorth> hmm, fails with sorting
17:59:10  <andythenorth> oof :)
17:59:14  <andythenorth> it's impossible :D
18:02:56  <Samu> god damn autorenew :(
18:03:09  <Samu> it switches vehicle indexes, it always breaks something in the ai
18:03:24  <Samu> t.t bah, i'm sad, seems i can't use autorenew
18:04:07  <peter1138> Well you get a new vehicle.
18:04:13  <Alberth> that's not bad, it also means you don't need to handle autorenew failures
18:04:31  <Samu> but i lose track of vehicles
18:04:51  * andythenorth has no idea what the problem is
18:04:52  <andythenorth> but
18:04:56  <andythenorth> wavey hands
18:04:58  <andythenorth> cattle not pets
18:05:18  <andythenorth> why would an AI ever be tracking individual vehicles? o_O
18:05:20  <Samu> it can get assigned to some other vehicles, the other day I had aircraft being sold in depots, while I was trying to sell road vehicles
18:06:14  <andythenorth> create hashes
18:06:23  <andythenorth> using other vehicle props?
18:06:43  <andythenorth> then check the hash before selling
18:06:44  <Alberth> can't you give a vehicle a name?
18:07:08  <andythenorth> don't they have numbers also?
18:07:34  <andythenorth> I'm sure I miss something, it just seems simple from this side of the fence :)
18:08:04  <Alberth> the number is what is being re-used I think :)
18:08:27  <andythenorth> autorenew changes the vehicle number? o_O
18:08:30  <andythenorth> that's a feature I missed
18:08:37  <Samu> it does
18:08:57  <andythenorth> sounds like a bug :)
18:09:07  * andythenorth has never read the AI spec :P
18:09:25  <Samu> i investigated autorenew code, what it does is build a new vehicle, this new vehicle has its own index
18:09:42  <Samu> then everything is copied over from the old vehicle to the new
18:09:51  <Samu> everything except the indexes
18:09:59  <Samu> that's what's breaking my lists on the ai
18:10:07  <Alberth> peter1138: I was digging in #6605, but don't know what to do next, any ideas?
18:10:09  <andythenorth> Samu: so vehicle_id is being changed?
18:10:25  <Samu> yes
18:10:27  <peter1138> What's #6605? Link?
18:10:37  <Alberth>
18:11:56  <andythenorth> Samu: if vehicle_id doesn't work then most of the vehicle NoAI spec is useless :)
18:12:02  <andythenorth> so you might want to give up :)
18:12:04  <andythenorth> but I doubt you will
18:12:25  <Samu> it does work when they remain the same
18:12:35  <Samu> which means, not using autorenew
18:12:36  <andythenorth> "Also note, that some IDs are static and never change, while others are allocated dynamically and might be reused for other objects once they are released. So be careful, which IDs you store for which purpose and whether they stay valid all the time."
18:12:38  <Samu> :(
18:13:16  <andythenorth> so give every vehicle a UUID as the name
18:13:25  <andythenorth> then iterate the vehicles, looking for that UUID
18:13:32  <andythenorth> then pull the vehicle ID off
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18:14:13  <Samu> :(
18:14:17  <andythenorth> in systems with only one loop, it's usually safe to do UUIDs as simple numbers, starting at 0 and incrementing
18:15:04  <andythenorth> what's GetUnitNumber for?
18:15:15  <Alberth> you may want to check the name is actually copied (although that should be the case)
18:15:39  <andythenorth> can NoAI use vehicle groups?
18:15:42  <Samu> the name is copied over, probably
18:15:43  <Samu> yes
18:15:44  <andythenorth> just put vehicles in classes
18:15:47  <Samu> i'm trying to use groups
18:15:52  <andythenorth> 'just'
18:16:13  <andythenorth> this is more fun than solving my own problems :)
18:16:17  <andythenorth> armchair problem solving
18:16:19  <andythenorth> no skin in the game
18:16:28  <Alberth> :)
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18:16:34  <peter1138> Alberth, I guess as you asked me, this is something I touched many years ago?
18:16:42  <andythenorth> a couple of years ago
18:16:43  <andythenorth> in FS
18:17:00  <Alberth> perhaps, but not that point where it ends
18:17:13  <Alberth> that was RB adding the m2
18:17:21  <andythenorth> oh nvm it's a different issue
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18:21:17  <peter1138> Alberth, hmm, is d->xy wrong?
18:22:08  <peter1138> Is 37809 a depot?
18:22:18  <Alberth> I had a depot entry at that tile at some point
18:24:40  <peter1138> But it isn't now?
18:25:01  <Alberth> no idea, haven't seen the map
18:25:05  <peter1138> Hah
18:25:22  <andythenorth> Power: 950hp*
18:25:31  <andythenorth> where * is some extra text footnote
18:25:35  <andythenorth> or something :P
18:27:39  <Samu> trying to switch everything from AILists and {} and [] into AIGroups
18:28:06  <Samu> seems that groups are the future
18:28:09  <Samu> of my ai
18:28:34  <Alberth> at least it's unexplored territory :)
18:28:45  <andythenorth> \o/
18:28:50  <andythenorth> cattle not pets
18:29:00  <andythenorth> manage things in classes, not individually
18:29:08  <andythenorth> GL when you need them to be in two groups at once :P
18:29:08  <Samu> performing savegame conversion
18:29:29  <Samu> oh, that actually happened
18:29:36  <andythenorth> oof, if I can't find a clever hack for this 'Power: xxx' problem, I have to delete all these vehicles :)
18:29:41  <andythenorth> that would be sad
18:30:07  <Alberth> "unknown" HP  :)
18:30:14  <andythenorth> 'varies'
18:30:24  <andythenorth> and that gets kicked to the start or end of any sort list
18:30:29  <andythenorth> treat it like either infinite, or 0
18:30:47  <Samu> each route has 2 groups, one is the sent to depot group, which all routes use, the other is the route group
18:31:39  <Samu> i can still identify the vehicles being sent to depots as part of the same group
18:31:55  <andythenorth> who has more lines in this channel, me or Samu? o_O
18:32:20  <TrueBrain> lines that contribute to a conversation, or just "lines"? :P
18:32:43  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth closed pull request #6997: Change: show 'Max. Power' for vehicles rather than 'Power'
18:32:44  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth commented on pull request #6997: Change: show 'Max. Power' for vehicles rather than 'Power'
18:32:56  <andythenorth> TrueBrain: be interesting to see a plot of both
18:32:58  <Alberth> make #openttd.teddy-bear   TB :)
18:33:15  <andythenorth> can I hack dorpsgek to be a bear?
18:33:21  <andythenorth> random encouraging responses
18:33:34  <Alberth> good work andy
18:33:34  <TrueBrain> be careful what you wish for :D
18:34:19  <andythenorth> ["have you googled that?", "are you sure this is necessary?", "did you check you're on the right branch?"]
18:34:22  <TrueBrain> for some reason, I am dreading setting up k8s for OpenTTD ..
18:34:23  <andythenorth> random.choice()
18:34:25  <TrueBrain> and I am not sure why ..
18:34:42  <andythenorth> TrueBrain: is there any reason you can't do it whilst drinking?
18:35:04  <TrueBrain> do I want to answer that question? :P
18:35:15  <andythenorth> well some people can't or don't drink :P
18:35:31  <andythenorth> but generally sysadmin seems to go better when drinking
18:35:51  <TrueBrain> until the next day; turns out they did burn the building after all
18:36:05  * andythenorth wonders if we'll see a frog soon
18:36:19  <TrueBrain> has been a while
18:36:22  <TrueBrain> xmas hit him hard, I guess
18:37:24  <andythenorth> very xmas
18:42:06  <Samu> when sending road vehicles to depots, sometimes it fails, especially if the vehicle is right in front of the depot :(
18:42:15  <Samu> or the depot is behind
18:42:36  <Samu> pathfinder doesn't reverse on loading trucks?
18:42:49  <Samu> yapf, that is
18:43:09  <Alberth> nope, with path signals it doesn't even change the path that has been reserved
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18:43:26  <Samu> i'm talking about road vehicles
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18:43:38  <Alberth> oh, no idea
18:46:10  <Samu> yep, only happens with loading bays
18:46:18  <Samu> doesn't happen with drivethrough
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18:46:28  <Samu> peter1138: plz fix !
18:46:37  <peter1138> What?
18:46:47  <Samu> pathfinder expert
18:47:28  <Samu> pathfinder doesn't reverse search on laoding bays
18:50:34  <Samu> let me test NPF
18:51:15  <Samu> on NPF it's working
18:51:20  <Samu> it's a YAPF only issue
18:52:36  <Samu> if it gets fixed, it will simplify code on my AI
18:52:58  <Samu> i won't have to insert an order to depot in the order list
18:53:10  <Samu> I really wanna avoid doing that
18:54:48  <Alberth> why insert?  can't you just give the vehicle new orders?
18:58:21  <Samu> if the vehicle is unprofitable, i may want to send it to depot
18:58:53  <Samu> but if it can't find a depot, i'm forced to insert a go to depot order
18:58:56  <Samu> to stop in it
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19:02:12  <andythenorth> why does peter get the benefit of a highlight?
19:02:13  <andythenorth> :P
19:02:31  <Samu> I remember he was familiar with yapf npf stuff
19:05:40  <Samu> peter1138:
19:05:41  <Samu> two images
19:05:50  <Samu> on NPF, it can find the depot
19:05:54  <Samu> on YAPF, it can'
19:05:55  <Samu> t
19:09:48  <Alberth> Samu: It's much more efficient to make a ticket for problems
19:11:32  <Samu> oh, right, good idea
19:14:37  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick opened issue #7001: YAPF can't find road depot, but NPF can
19:19:21  <andythenorth> child #1 says this train is no good
19:19:28  <andythenorth> looks all wrong apparently
19:22:25  <andythenorth> RL edition :P
19:29:19  <Alberth> seems a bit more round in the horse
19:29:59  <Alberth> almost a tank wagon :p
19:31:05  <Alberth> what struck me was however the Hurly Burly, it looked like an upside down wagon at first sight :p
19:31:17  <Alberth> probably australian
19:31:22  <andythenorth> I like that one
19:31:28  <andythenorth> it's unusual
19:32:22  <Alberth> FlinderMouse has it a bit too, the black at the top misguides me :)
19:32:44  <andythenorth> I'm fine with some 'wtf' :)
19:33:13  <andythenorth> the RL thing doesn't make a good sprite without some weird touches
19:35:09  <Alberth> about the shredder, from the photo, I expected more like the chinook, less high highlighted sides
19:37:25  <Alberth> No_13 looks much less massive at the top than the Hurly Burly
19:38:27  <andythenorth> oh the sides of the Shredder look like they bulge out?
19:38:36  <Alberth> yeah
19:38:45  <Alberth> especially the blue one
19:39:23  <andythenorth> I'll fix thanks
19:39:32  <Alberth> yw
19:53:02  <andythenorth> ha ha
19:53:14  <andythenorth> samu has found the bug I've been whining about for years :)
19:53:19  <andythenorth> YAPF can't find road depots
19:53:24  <andythenorth> which is why breakdowns have to be off
19:53:30  <andythenorth> which is why reliability is meaningless
19:53:33  <andythenorth> :D
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20:02:52  <andythenorth> Wolf01 Wolf03 WolfN
20:02:59  <Wolf03> Wolf!
20:03:19  <Wolf03> Who is he? I didn't disconnect
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20:04:25  <Wolf03> Ah, netsplit
20:06:10  <Alberth> hai multi-wolf
20:06:26  *** Wolf03 is now known as Wolf01
20:06:44  <Wolf01> Back myself
20:06:49  <Alberth> and de-multiplexed again :)
20:11:16  <TrueBrain> brrr, demuxers .. they are the worst
20:11:32  <TrueBrain> do you know how difficult it is to implement a demuxer where entries have to synchronize?
20:11:41  <TrueBrain> it still haunts me in my sleep
20:11:43  <Wolf01> I know
20:12:21  <Wolf01> I had to design a setial to parallel to serial converter in high school
20:12:25  <Wolf01> *serial
20:12:47  <Samu> Your script made an error: attempt to call 'instance'
20:12:58  <Samu> sentToDepotList = sentToDepotList(1);
20:13:03  <Samu> it points me to this
20:13:35  <Samu> gonna try
20:13:37  <Samu> sentToDepotList = this.sentToDepotList(1);
20:14:45  <Samu> it solved it. I never understand when I have to use "this" and when I don't
20:21:01  <nielsm> presumably you need to when calling a method on an instance
20:22:01  <nielsm> this.sentToDepotList is a bound value including a reference to the object "this" refers to, while just sentToDepotList is unbound lacking the reference
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20:26:25  <Alberth> Samu: you notice how the left side and the right side use the same name?
20:27:30  <Alberth> so while you may think the left side and right side use different things, they don't, as a name always points to the same thing no matter where you use it
20:28:42  <Alberth> the "this" reduces the scope from everything to just things inside the object, which means you now use two different things
21:20:45  <andythenorth> stupid amount of time tweaking this :P
21:31:56  <Gabda> is it possible, that the IConsoleSetSetting function needs a whole game cycle to update the given value?
21:32:37  <Gabda> so that in the next program line if we ask for the value, we got the up-updated one?
21:34:38  <TrueBrain> okay, I think I have it working ... I can now bootstrap any random kubernetes cluster to run OpenTTD's infrastructure (well, the parts that are ported .. read: nothing yet)
21:34:43  <TrueBrain> which is pretty sweet :)
21:34:50  <TrueBrain> means people can even experiment with it at home :P
21:34:52  <TrueBrain> (read: me)
21:36:16  <andythenorth> yay
21:37:29  <TrueBrain> OpenTTD-IaC now automatically builds .. I really like Azure Pipelines
21:37:32  <TrueBrain> so much easier to work with
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21:40:12  <Alberth> great
21:40:17  <Alberth> night
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22:14:37  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] saxbophone commented on issue #6832: RetroAppX selling OpenTTD on Microsoft Store
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23:57:45  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 commented on issue #7001: YAPF can't find road depot, but NPF can

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