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Log for #openttd on 26th January 2019:
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00:00:53  <glx> you could also get some replies on this chan, but depending on your timezone it may be difficult, we're mainly in europe
00:01:22  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nikolas updated pull request #7086: Change #6173: Update SDL driver to use SDL 2.0 https://git.io/fhamZ
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00:01:35  <m1cr0man> just realized, is there a katamaran boat set?
00:01:46  <glx> maybe
00:04:42  <peter1138> Ooh, past my bedtime.
00:05:36  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick commented on issue #7089: Crash when Removing NewGRF from Active list https://git.io/fhKWI
00:05:44  <Samu> wow, what a nice table
00:09:17  <Samu> i tied following how terraform_cmd works, it's quite complex
00:10:19  <Samu> tried*
00:11:34  <Samu> oh, that kind of dirty is for repainting
00:11:46  <Samu> not the dirty i expected, well i didn't follow that
00:12:55  <Samu> shouldn't the tile height be set first?
00:13:02  <Samu> and only dirty them after?
00:15:10  <Samu> nvm
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00:25:06  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro approved pull request #7105: Fix #7098, #7061: Inverted test led to invalid iterator access. https://git.io/fhKWH
00:25:20  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro merged pull request #7105: Fix #7098, #7061: Inverted test led to invalid iterator access. https://git.io/fhKnM
00:25:25  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro closed issue #7098: Crash: cannot dereference end map/set iterator https://git.io/fhovV
00:30:46  <Samu> nice fix
00:30:50  <Samu> hopefully it works
00:38:33  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on issue #6682: menu bars disappear if enable windows screen scaling on high dpi monitors https://git.io/fhKl4
00:39:08  <glx> but I can't really test all this high dpi stuff :)
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00:40:34  <peter1138> I fiddled with enabling DSR but that gets me to 3360x2100. Doesn't exhibit any issues.
00:41:47  <glx> well openttd is dpi aware, but I found something about GDI scaling
00:46:59  <glx> hmm seems we are not concerned as we use DIB
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00:51:52  <nnyby> testing out my sdl2 branch on a tiny map, lol https://www.twitch.tv/acidfreak88
00:52:28  <peter1138> zBase ;(
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00:54:04  <Eddi|zuHause> webcam but no mic?
00:54:15  <glx> no audio at all
00:54:16  <peter1138> Same as me earlier.
00:54:35  <nnyby> no audio, sorry lol. i have a mic, just havent set it up
00:55:01  <Eddi|zuHause> that delay...
00:55:57  <peter1138> I use appear.in for low-latency video stuff.
00:56:12  <peter1138> But twitch is not designed for it.
00:56:52  <peter1138> Hmm, window is no longer resizable.
00:57:08  <peter1138> It was kinda broken before, depending on what window manager is in use, but it worked.
00:57:20  <peter1138> ^ with SDL2
00:57:45  <peter1138> Tiling window managers, woo
00:58:03  <Eddi|zuHause> i can't follow what's going on with the window sizes
00:58:17  <Eddi|zuHause> also, is that the game freezing or the recording software?
00:59:13  <Eddi|zuHause> ugh, original road generator
00:59:21  <glx> Eddi|zuHause: check the webcam ;)
00:59:56  <Eddi|zuHause> and point-to-point lines :p
01:00:09  <glx> I'm no fan of the base grf
01:00:13  <glx> *not
01:01:35  <Eddi|zuHause> awesome video quality :p
01:01:55  <glx> depends on the upstream link
01:13:56  <Samu> Helicopters with 'service at helipads' enabled, will only do so when 'disable servicing when breakdowns set to none' is disabled
01:14:33  <Samu> why did I do this?
01:15:24  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on issue #7089: Crash when Removing NewGRF from Active list https://git.io/fhK4n
01:19:21  <Samu> when breakdowns are disabled, vehicles do not need to do the automatic service
01:19:46  <glx> it's an option
01:20:57  <Samu> helicopters servicing at helipads breaks autorenew/autoreplace routine if they are serviced in-time before the end of service interval time
01:21:34  <nnyby> yeah, looks like that resizing thing needs to be fixed
01:21:38  <Samu> automatic service is never called due to refreshing the interval counter
01:21:51  <Samu> hence, autorenew/autoreplace never happens
01:22:41  <Samu> so maybe this is why I made that change
01:23:05  <Samu> to give automatic service a chance to get called
01:23:08  <nnyby> it's like picking the most similar size out of the set of possible fullscreen resolutions instead allowing any window aspect ratio
01:23:56  <glx> I think openttd supports any kind of "resolution"
01:26:19  <Eddi|zuHause> "OpenTTD window can be any size, as long as it is fullscreen"
01:26:33  <glx> hehe
01:27:08  <Samu> i better write down this stuff before I get lost again
01:30:45  <peter1138> Hah, I remember looking at that ... a long time ago.
01:31:08  <peter1138> I wonder where my patches went... sigh.
01:31:39  <nnyby> yeah, there is a part of the code that picks "best" resolution: https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/blob/master/src/video/sdl_v.cpp#L253  my branch must be using this incorrectly
01:34:06  <peter1138> Might be that SDL_ListModes returns a resolution list in windowed mode for SDL2, but not SDL1.2?
01:34:13  <peter1138> That would set _all_modes
01:36:55  <nnyby> yeah, that seems to be it
01:37:46  <nnyby> the sdl1.2 driver set _all_modes based on fullscreen status and i just missed that
01:38:01  <peter1138> Ah
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01:41:13  <nnyby> yeah that fixed the problem. think _all_modes is no longer necessary - just using _fullscreen
01:42:33  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nikolas updated pull request #7086: Change #6173: Update SDL driver to use SDL 2.0 https://git.io/fhamZ
01:46:25  <Samu> too many boolean logic and disable not set to none too much negative logic for my poor brain
01:46:37  <Samu> it's easy to get lost
01:48:56  <Samu> trying to summarize, if there are breakdowns, helicopters will service at helipads
01:49:13  <peter1138> What was the bug number?
01:49:46  <Samu> which will ruin autoreplace if the interval timer is reset
01:49:50  <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, https://github.com/PeterN/OpenTTD/commit/d3c6d5b0701ae9bab3935a370dd0be03a79fee5f
01:51:08  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, something like that. maybe more descriptive names?
01:51:38  <peter1138> Likely.
01:54:18  <peter1138> FML I really need to sleep :(
01:54:39  <peter1138> And I don't think I have these patches any more.
01:55:30  <peter1138> Might've posted it on flyspray.
01:56:08  <Eddi|zuHause> if you did, andy closed it in a "man, nobody is doing anything with that anyway" rage
01:56:28  <peter1138> 6493. It's not there, so I didn't.
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01:59:04  <Samu> https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/issues/6493
01:59:04  <Eddi|zuHause> unrelated, but isn't "European KDE Developer" like a tautology?
01:59:23  <Eddi|zuHause> i feel like half the KDE developers are german
01:59:25  <peter1138> Samu, yes, I mean the work I did on it is not attached.
01:59:27  <nnyby> Eddi|zuHause: lol true :P
01:59:56  <Samu> don't worry, I worked on it, only to get it closed anyway
01:59:56  <nnyby> my girlfriend chose that phrase -_-
02:00:14  <nnyby> and im not really european
02:00:18  <peter1138> It was autoclosed.
02:00:37  <peter1138> I already had a working fix :/
02:00:39  <peter1138> Damn.
02:00:44  <peter1138> Oh well, sleep.
02:01:10  <peter1138> My "fix" was something like "if due to be autoreplaced, don't service at helidepot"
02:01:26  <Samu> can u take a look at...
02:01:40  <Samu> meh, forget it, go to sleep
02:02:50  <Samu> https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/pull/6925/commits
02:03:43  <Samu> the 3 commits that mention #6493 + the other
02:03:50  <Samu> the refactoring one
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02:04:25  <Samu> that was my solution to the problem
02:21:49  <nnyby> goddammit my trains crashed. first time thats happened lol
03:34:47  <Eddi|zuHause> that usually happens to me if i do construction work near signals
03:35:14  <nnyby> yeah, that's exactly what happened
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04:35:36  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 opened pull request #7106: Fix #7089: close NewGRF textfile windows when their data are invalid https://git.io/fhKuB
04:36:14  <glx> now sleep :)
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06:29:04  <Alberth> moin
06:31:59  <Pikka> noim
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07:24:59  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] btzy updated pull request #7080: Change: Cache stations and links for whole map for linkgraph GUI to eliminate delay when scrolling or zooming https://git.io/fh2LL
07:29:24  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] btzy updated pull request #7080: Change: Cache stations and links for whole map for linkgraph GUI to eliminate delay when scrolling or zooming https://git.io/fh2LL
07:32:04  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] btzy commented on pull request #7080: Change: Cache stations and links for whole map for linkgraph GUI to eliminate delay when scrolling or zooming https://git.io/fhKwA
07:33:09  <andythenorth> moin
07:35:53  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] btzy updated pull request #7080: Change: Cache stations and links for whole map for linkgraph GUI to eliminate delay when scrolling or zooming https://git.io/fh2LL
07:39:37  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] btzy updated pull request #7080: Change: Cache stations and links for whole map for linkgraph GUI to eliminate delay when scrolling or zooming https://git.io/fh2LL
07:41:41  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] btzy updated pull request #7080: Change: Cache stations and links for whole map for linkgraph GUI to eliminate delay when scrolling or zooming https://git.io/fh2LL
07:53:40  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] btzy updated pull request #7080: Change: Cache stations and links for whole map for linkgraph GUI to eliminate delay when scrolling or zooming https://git.io/fh2LL
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08:03:31  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] btzy updated pull request #7080: Change: Cache stations and links for whole map for linkgraph GUI to eliminate delay when scrolling or zooming https://git.io/fh2LL
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08:19:32  <Wolf01> o/
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08:23:29  <andythenorth> moin
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08:30:09  <nielsm> hm nope, vs2019 still failing build
08:31:40  <nielsm> okay upgrading projects to vs142 toolset makes at least some of them build
08:32:51  <peter1138> Damn us being economical with savegame versions. Version 182 is covers 3 separate changes.
08:32:54  <peter1138> -is
08:33:29  <andythenorth> are we worried integers will run out?
08:34:12  <Wolf01> Let's do the no-savegame-bump-on-nrt mistake again!
08:34:16  <nielsm> it's 16 bit, should last a few months at least
08:35:00  <nielsm> and it produces a working build
08:35:09  <nielsm> I'll make a PR for vs2019 project files
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09:06:45  * andythenorth spends hours making group liveries
09:07:52  <nielsm> lol
09:10:38  <andythenorth> https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=1217769#p1217769
09:14:41  <Gabda> hi!
09:15:54  <Gabda> tiles with the same y coordinate are called row, column or neither (as column is only defined in viewport for 45° rotated directions)?
09:17:18  <Gabda> sometimes it is harder to find a good function name than to write the function...
09:21:42  <Alberth> don't think we have rows of tiles
09:22:22  <Alberth> in the viewport, we use north for center top of the screen
09:22:43  <Alberth> you can use x/y direction
09:22:53  <Alberth> or x/y row, perhaps
09:24:01  <Alberth> or x/y axis, which is used in the map code
09:24:58  <Gabda> i want to find an tile while the Y coordinate is fixed (so the return value is the X coordinate)
09:25:21  <Gabda> and I don't know if FindXInRow or FindXInColumn would be better
09:25:34  <Gabda> or something else
09:26:53  <Alberth> FindYOnXAxis  ?
09:27:04  <Alberth> too many uppercase letters :p
09:27:39  <Alberth> maybe you want to express the property of the returned tile?
09:27:54  <Alberth> ie FirstFreeTile   or so
09:28:49  <Alberth> you usually don't look for a random y position
09:30:17  <Gabda> yes, I go through a lot of y positions
09:30:32  <Alberth> what do you look for?
09:30:32  <Gabda> FindXWHileY, or FindXWithY?
09:31:37  <Alberth> problem with such a name that it doesn't say what it looks for
09:32:04  <Gabda> given two town, when selecting a row with fixed Y coordinate, find the X coordinate of the last tile that is closer to the fist town than the second
09:32:15  <Alberth> Do_x_with_y      gives you no clues what the purpose is
09:32:22  <Alberth> where it comes in useful
09:33:28  <Alberth> find edge of town ?
09:34:17  <Gabda> yes, but with a given y
09:34:44  <Alberth> that's mostly an implementation detail, a way of finding the edge
09:35:14  <Alberth> 'town' is a bit ambiguous, could also be where the houses end
09:36:19  <Alberth> farthest town tile ?
09:36:32  <Alberth> town area tile?
09:36:39  <nielsm> FindTownExtentsY ?
09:36:59  <Alberth> nice word :)
09:42:26  <Gabda> I agree
09:43:38  <Gabda> FindTownExtentAtY or ...InY?
09:43:49  <nielsm> just Y, no In or At
09:44:42  <nielsm> or do you mean FindTownExtentYatX ?
09:44:54  <Gabda> and it would still imply that Y is fixed?
09:45:04  <nielsm> i.e. given an X coordinate find the extent of a town in Y dimension along that X ?
09:45:33  <nielsm> XatY and YatX
09:45:46  <nielsm> for searching along X with fixed Y, or along Y with fixed X
09:45:52  <Gabda> yes, such a nice description :D
09:47:37  <Gabda> I will with this one, thank you very much :)
09:47:50  <Gabda> *will go
09:49:03  <planetmaker> moin
09:49:27  <planetmaker> if you want the influence area of a town, maybe sth with 'local authority'?
09:50:17  <Gabda> I want the whole town area, not just the local authority
09:50:45  <planetmaker> hu?
09:51:02  <planetmaker> the area of the local authority is always as big or bigger than the house-covered area
09:51:38  <Gabda> I am making the town Voronoi diagram
10:05:04  <planetmaker> yes, ok... so what about town radius?
10:05:19  <planetmaker> or town zone radii?
10:05:55  <planetmaker> also there is area which does not belong to any local authority
10:08:19  <nielsm> https://i.imgur.com/jXOaFVL.jpg
10:08:26  <nielsm> actual photo
10:15:21  <andythenorth> woo
10:15:27  <andythenorth> china?
10:16:07  <nielsm> turkey
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10:24:24  <andythenorth> ctrl-click arbtitrary counter? :P
10:25:57  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh opened pull request #7107: Add: Visual Studio 2019 project files https://git.io/fhK6z
10:29:12  <TrueBrain> Azure Pipelines can even forgot to queue some PRs if it took too long for it to queue ..
10:29:17  <TrueBrain> we had a 12 hour old PR that was not queued
10:29:19  <TrueBrain> but a 2 hour that was
10:29:21  <TrueBrain> very odd
10:29:35  <TrueBrain> I keep trying to find the URL that triggers the building :)
10:29:45  <andythenorth> oofd
10:29:51  <andythenorth> paid azure? :P
10:30:37  <TrueBrain> it doesnt suggest that changes anything
10:33:00  <LordAro> have you asked MS what's going on?
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10:35:09  <TrueBrain> many people have; their answer is that you have to visit their page once a day
10:35:19  <TrueBrain> but .. it is not 24h :P
10:35:57  <LordAro> that is ....not a proper answer for a CI service
10:36:30  <LordAro> i can't possibly imagine the people paying lots of money for pipelines have to do that
10:39:16  <TrueBrain> most also use it for their git and bug tracking, I guess
10:39:19  <TrueBrain> not sure
10:39:27  <TrueBrain> investigation is slow, as I need to wait for it to break to look why it breaks :P
10:39:53  <LordAro> mm
10:43:45  <TrueBrain> so .... I tell DigitalOcean to scale up my k8s ... and nothing seems to be happening. hmmmmmm
10:48:21  <TrueBrain> the overview page does tell me it scaled up, but nothing really happens :D
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10:54:08  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh updated pull request #7107: Add: Visual Studio 2019 project files https://git.io/fhK6z
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10:58:54  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh updated pull request #7107: Add: Visual Studio 2019 project files https://git.io/fhK6z
10:59:38  <nielsm> lots of dumb little mistakes
11:00:46  <nielsm> so how's the cmake conversion going? :)
11:01:16  <nielsm> because I'm tempted to make some of those msbuild projects a bit less hacky
11:01:58  <nielsm> (at least "settings" to have proper dependencies, could possibly also make "version" depend on something)
11:07:35  <TrueBrain> you are going to port things to cmake I hear? Awesome :D
11:07:50  <TrueBrain> here, a head-start: https://github.com/TrueBrain/OpenTTD/tree/cmake
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11:09:00  <nielsm> hah no, don't feel like learning cmake at all
11:10:01  <andythenorth> oof is Horse done yet? :P
11:10:07  * andythenorth running out of motivation :D
11:11:51  <TrueBrain> right
11:11:56  <TrueBrain> going to bring the new website online I guess
11:12:33  <andythenorth> hooray
11:14:15  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh updated pull request #7107: Add: Visual Studio 2019 project files https://git.io/fhK6z
11:15:16  <Borg> fast question.. w/ GCC is best to compile OpenTTD?
11:16:02  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/website] TrueBrain opened pull request #40: Release: 1.0.0 https://git.io/fhKPY
11:16:27  <nielsm> Borg, our CI uses GCC 6
11:17:45  <TrueBrain> I am curious what is going to break .. but the only way to find out is to do it, I guess ..
11:17:56  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: should we make a news post about it, before we release it?
11:18:17  <andythenorth> I guess we should :)
11:18:19  <nielsm> TrueBrain imo yes, and make sure to tell users we do want reports about brokenness
11:18:20  <andythenorth> what shall we say?
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11:19:58  <nielsm> "Modernisation of the hosting infrastructure is proceeding, and we have just brought a new version of this main website online. If you find any problems with the new site please let us know at <places>"
11:20:00  <nielsm> ?
11:20:13  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: lemme make a draft :)
11:20:22  <TrueBrain> nice nielsm :)
11:23:22  <nielsm> "If you find any trains stuck at signals please let us know, so we can resolve the issue safely without risk of crashes."
11:26:00  <TrueBrain> that is a nice closing statement :D
11:26:06  <TrueBrain> okay, lets see how my news looks ..
11:28:15  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/website] TrueBrain opened pull request #41: Add: [posts] new website and nightlies are back https://git.io/fhKP5
11:28:18  <TrueBrain> all from the github interface :)
11:28:20  <TrueBrain> that is pretty nice tbh
11:29:32  <andythenorth> electro-diesel pax units? :P https://www.railengineer.uk/2018/09/27/bi-mode-good-tri-mode-better/
11:29:53  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/website] TrueBrain updated pull request #41: Add: [posts] new website and nightlies are back https://git.io/fhKP5
11:30:32  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: anything to add to the post?
11:31:16  <andythenorth> nope :)
11:32:09  <nielsm> angry whistling over from the bird cage... should maybe let them out
11:32:18  <TrueBrain> just one big FYI: adding news and merging it, only makes it show up on staging. A release + tag is needed before it hits production
11:32:44  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: I was hinting that you maybe approve it then :P
11:32:59  <andythenorth> oops
11:33:25  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/website] andythenorth approved pull request #41: Add: [posts] new website and nightlies are back https://git.io/fhKXc
11:33:41  <TrueBrain> tnx :)
11:34:03  <andythenorth> I approve the 1.0.0 tag?
11:34:04  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/website] TrueBrain merged pull request #41: Add: [posts] new website and nightlies are back https://git.io/fhKP5
11:34:12  <TrueBrain> please do
11:34:18  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/website] andythenorth approved pull request #40: Release: 1.0.0 https://git.io/fhKXK
11:34:34  <TrueBrain> I will wait for this news to land on staging, so we can check if it is really correct :D
11:38:50  <nielsm> actually it just hits me, there is no archive of nightly builds on the website?
11:38:51  <TrueBrain> https://www.staging.openttd.org/news/2019/01/26/new-website-and-nightlies-are-back.html LGTM :)
11:39:04  <TrueBrain> nielsm: only if you know the URL, basically
11:39:12  <nielsm> ok
11:39:21  <TrueBrain> but that is a bit hidden, yes
11:39:29  <TrueBrain> sounds like a nice PR, to show a listing of releases :)
11:39:41  <TrueBrain> https://www.staging.openttd.org/downloads/openttd-releases/1.7.0.html
11:39:42  <TrueBrain> for example
11:39:55  <TrueBrain> we just rather publish links like https://www.staging.openttd.org/downloads/openttd-releases/latest.html
11:40:00  <TrueBrain> as in general, people don't want a specific version
11:40:02  <TrueBrain> just the latest
11:42:27  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/website] TrueBrain merged pull request #40: Release: 1.0.0 https://git.io/fhKPY
11:42:42  <nielsm> hmm "supported compilers" in README.md is woefully out of date
11:43:06  <TrueBrain> honestly, many things somewhat are :P
11:46:17  <TrueBrain> can a CNAME point to a NS record?
11:46:40  <TrueBrain> seems so
11:49:42  <TrueBrain> okay, TTL of 1 hour .. right
11:50:52  <TrueBrain> okay, it seems to be live
11:50:52  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh updated pull request #7107: Add: Visual Studio 2019 project files https://git.io/fhK6z
11:50:59  <TrueBrain> I cannot really test, as I have to wait for the TTL :D
11:54:37  <Xaroth> on the new site the serverlist points to server.openttd.org, right?
11:54:40  <Xaroth> if so, it works for me.
11:56:05  <TrueBrain> and if not? :P Isn't it more important that the content is correct?
11:56:05  <TrueBrain> :D
11:56:47  <Xaroth> bit silly to test on  the wrong environment.
11:56:52  <Xaroth> but it looks correct
11:57:15  <TrueBrain> a few 404s are hitting ..
11:57:21  <TrueBrain> favicon.ico ..
11:57:32  <nielsm> forgot that one? :D
11:57:37  <TrueBrain> no, it is in the /static/ folder
11:57:45  <TrueBrain> but some people always want it from the root folder
11:58:10  <TrueBrain> ah, and the download URL is not correct if you come in from google
11:58:19  <TrueBrain> did not expect things to link to that URL
12:02:22  <andythenorth> live for me :D
12:03:13  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/website] TrueBrain opened pull request #42: Fix: also redirect some older URLs to the correct locations https://git.io/fhKyK
12:03:45  <andythenorth> I got 9 links 404ing
12:04:00  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/website] TrueBrain updated pull request #42: Fix: also redirect some older URLs to the correct locations https://git.io/fhKyK
12:04:11  <TrueBrain> which are?
12:04:16  <TrueBrain> (fucking cliffhangers)
12:04:16  <andythenorth> making an issue
12:04:17  <TrueBrain> :P
12:04:41  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/website] andythenorth opened issue #43: 404s https://git.io/fhKyP
12:04:53  <andythenorth> I can improve the issue
12:05:12  <TrueBrain> download-all will no longer be supported; I am fine with that
12:05:32  <TrueBrain> guess I should make the \w\w optional in the redirects
12:05:37  <TrueBrain> my regex foo is not that good
12:05:39  <andythenorth> some of these are links in news post etc
12:05:57  <andythenorth> I can fix the content, or you can fix the paths?
12:06:11  <TrueBrain> lets fix the content of the news articles to point to the new URLs
12:06:22  <andythenorth> I'll start on that
12:06:24  <TrueBrain> ideally, I would like to remove these redirects some day
12:06:25  <TrueBrain> :)
12:06:26  <TrueBrain> tnx!
12:07:16  <TrueBrain> ^/\w\w/download-stable/(.*)$ <- how to make the \w\w/ optional .. hmm
12:07:21  <TrueBrain> ^/(\w\w/)?download-stable/(.*)$ I guess ..
12:07:54  <LordAro> omg, website happened
12:08:28  <andythenorth> https://www.openttd.org/download-stable -> https://www.openttd.org/downloads/openttd-releases/latest.html
12:08:29  <andythenorth> ?
12:09:14  <TrueBrain> yes
12:09:42  <TrueBrain> can someone please review this: https://github.com/OpenTTD/website/pull/42 :)
12:09:55  <andythenorth> https://www.openttd.org/download-testing goes where now?  https://www.openttd.org/downloads/openttd-nightlies/latest.html
12:10:20  <TrueBrain> testing is also releases
12:10:29  <TrueBrain> so https://www.openttd.org/downloads/openttd-releases/latest.html
12:10:38  <andythenorth> ta
12:11:36  <TrueBrain>  "GET /download-trunk HTTP/1.1" 404 3695 "http://127.0.0.1:4000/news/2009/12/11/graphics-and-sound-replacement-complete.html" <- lol :D
12:11:39  <TrueBrain> referer is funny
12:13:04  <TrueBrain> owh, no robots.txt
12:16:03  <andythenorth> http://www.openttd.org/download-openttd-useful -> ?
12:17:10  <LordAro> releases/latest, probably
12:17:14  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/website] TrueBrain updated pull request #42: Fix: also redirect some older URLs to the correct locations https://git.io/fhKyK
12:17:28  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: https://www.staging.openttd.org/downloads/openttd-useful/latest.html
12:17:33  <LordAro> or that
12:17:38  <TrueBrain> (add /en/ between the URL to find out, btw)
12:18:02  <TrueBrain> okay, made the language tag optional for downloads; that should fix all 404s from the outside for now
12:18:20  <TrueBrain> euh .. this is wrong .. lol
12:19:09  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/website] TrueBrain updated pull request #42: Fix: also redirect some older URLs to the correct locations https://git.io/fhKyK
12:19:33  <TrueBrain> now it needs a review :)
12:21:03  <TrueBrain> hmm .. this language tag is really annoying :D
12:21:06  <TrueBrain> why did we ever do that? :P
12:22:10  <LordAro> was there anything other than /en ? could just globally remove that then redirect from the "base"
12:22:17  <LordAro> might make things simpler
12:22:23  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on issue #6682: menu bars disappear if enable windows screen scaling on high dpi monitors https://git.io/fhKSh
12:22:25  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/website] TrueBrain updated pull request #42: Fix: also redirect some older URLs to the correct locations https://git.io/fhKyK
12:22:33  <TrueBrain> LordAro: yes; others exist
12:22:36  <TrueBrain> just not as public
12:22:54  <TrueBrain> but I wanted to avoid redirects from the base, as that might make future things annoying as fuck
12:23:02  <LordAro> mm, true
12:23:06  <TrueBrain> for example, old URL is /en/news, new is /en/news/
12:23:09  <TrueBrain> euh
12:23:13  <TrueBrain> for example, old URL is /en/news, new is /news/
12:23:21  <TrueBrain> so I am very picky on which to support without /en/ :P
12:23:32  <TrueBrain> and I am not aiming for 100%
12:23:42  <TrueBrain> but supporting google results sounds useful :D
12:23:52  <andythenorth> some kittens may die
12:31:20  <andythenorth> err
12:31:21  <andythenorth> wtf?
12:32:02  <andythenorth> nvm
12:32:10  <andythenorth> replacing a url in the wrong dir
12:33:33  <TrueBrain> LordAro: mind approviing/rejecting my PR? I really could use some second pair of eyes on it :)
12:33:42  <TrueBrain> I tested it, ofc, but .. meh :P Regex!
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12:36:26  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/website] andythenorth opened pull request #44: Fix: replace outdated urls, preventing linkrot and 404s https://git.io/fhK9n
12:36:41  <andythenorth> most just find-replace
12:36:54  <andythenorth> one url took 10 mins due to user error :P
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12:37:32  <TrueBrain> hmm .. if we didn't have them prefixed with www.openttd.org, we would have spotted this on staging :D
12:38:23  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: _posts/2009-12-11-graphics-and-sound-replacement-complete.html <- should be nightlies, but meh
12:38:24  <TrueBrain> who cares :P
12:38:42  <andythenorth> nobody
12:39:57  <TrueBrain> but yeah, some day we should just remove the www.openttd.org from all the URLs
12:39:59  <TrueBrain> but no prio there
12:40:38  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/website] TrueBrain merged pull request #44: Fix: replace outdated urls, preventing linkrot and 404s https://git.io/fhK9n
12:40:39  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/website] TrueBrain closed issue #43: Some news items hit 404s now the website is live https://git.io/fhKyP
12:40:47  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/website] TrueBrain merged pull request #42: Fix: also redirect some older URLs to the correct locations https://git.io/fhKyK
12:40:49  <TrueBrain> right, lets yolo this
12:40:51  <andythenorth> I rebased and everything :P
12:40:58  <andythenorth> squashed and reworded
12:41:03  * andythenorth no longer a git clown
12:41:15  <TrueBrain> :D
12:41:20  <andythenorth> still all just branch merges at work though
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12:41:32  <andythenorth> master, milestone, feature <- merges
12:41:59  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/website] TrueBrain opened pull request #45: Release: 1.0.1 https://git.io/fhK9z
12:43:22  <TrueBrain> so .. who is going to tweet this ?
12:43:25  <TrueBrain> planetmaker ? :)
12:44:40  <TrueBrain> lol .. I merged too quickly
12:44:48  <TrueBrain> it will first deploy a new version now, than an older :D
12:44:53  <TrueBrain> then
12:44:54  <TrueBrain> ffs
12:45:16  <andythenorth> Pikka poke
12:45:26  <Pikka> pokka huh?
12:46:01  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/website] TrueBrain merged pull request #45: Release: 1.0.1 https://git.io/fhK9z
12:46:16  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/website] TrueBrain closed issue #36: Screenshot on frontpage is not latest https://git.io/fhr1M
12:47:38  <TrueBrain> okay, this should be online in a few minutes ...
12:51:27  <TrueBrain> there we go
12:51:30  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: run your checker again! :D
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12:55:29  <andythenorth> running
12:55:38  <andythenorth> so...does anyone know how railtypes work? :P
12:55:39  <andythenorth> Pikka: o_O
12:55:50  <andythenorth> TrueBrain: "853 of 853 links checked, 0 bad"
12:55:57  <Eddi|zuHause> so... does anyone know how metaquestions work?
12:55:58  <Pikka> they work... okay?
12:56:17  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: cool, tnx
12:56:19  <andythenorth> I am considering a FEATURE
12:56:24  <andythenorth> industrial rail tracks
12:56:32  <andythenorth> RAIL can go on INRL
12:56:37  <andythenorth> but INRL can't go on RAIL
12:56:50  <Eddi|zuHause> why?
12:56:50  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN approved pull request #7107: Add: Visual Studio 2019 project files https://git.io/fhK9H
12:57:06  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: right question but wrong question :)
12:57:30  <TrueBrain> okay, only missing robots.txt now :D
12:57:33  <andythenorth> hooray
12:57:35  <andythenorth> favicons work
12:57:36  <andythenorth> ?
12:57:41  <TrueBrain> yup
12:57:45  <Eddi|zuHause> that would only make sense if you could give it some benefits, like behaving like road vehicles (no collision, signals)
12:57:58  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: yes wouldn't it
12:58:03  <andythenorth> so is it an NRT thing?
12:58:42  <Eddi|zuHause> well, we already have HEQS?
12:59:03  <andythenorth> my goal is specific to FIRS Steeltown currently, i.e. steel mill trains
12:59:13  <andythenorth> but I don't want to have to provide specific engines for the wagons
12:59:38  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN opened pull request #7108: Feature: Group liveries, and livery window usability enhancements. https://git.io/fhK9F
12:59:41  <andythenorth> if I could have cross-compatible engines, I just need INRL wagons
12:59:54  <TrueBrain> lol ... hits on dowloads.php ... that is 15+ years old ..
13:00:13  <TrueBrain> guess we can just say: fuck this :)
13:00:20  <andythenorth> we get Apache hits all the time for .php paths
13:00:26  <andythenorth> none of them exist, nor ever have
13:00:27  <TrueBrain> mixedfeed.php :P
13:00:31  <TrueBrain> those have existed
13:00:32  <andythenorth> login.php :P
13:00:34  <TrueBrain> YEARS ago :)
13:00:42  <andythenorth> we = work, not ottd :P
13:00:50  <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: just drop .php ending with a redirect?
13:00:51  <TrueBrain> I understood :)
13:00:59  <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: I think I am fine with returning 404s
13:01:11  <TrueBrain> if after 15 years you are still using an old URL .. it is time to make you a bit more aware :P
13:01:49  <Eddi|zuHause> probably some automated script that even the author isn't aware of anymore
13:02:34  <TrueBrain> exactly
13:02:41  <TrueBrain> Tiny Tiny RSS is one
13:02:42  <Eddi|zuHause> so even if the redirect succeeds, the script will probably fail on the different structure of the page
13:02:47  <TrueBrain> and more of those bot-like
13:03:24  <andythenorth> can't have this in your passenger station :P https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0600/7521/products/photo1_6b5a802c-e62a-4a4b-af9b-00bac9746b7f_1024x1024.jpg?v=1419883548
13:03:46  <Pikka> andythenorth: the biggest problem with coding railtypes is the number of people who will whinge at you that you're not using the "standard" labels
13:03:56  <TrueBrain> Load Balancer tells me the average request duration is 50k ms :D (no typo)
13:04:18  <andythenorth> isn't one-way cross-compatibility still impossible?
13:04:20  <TrueBrain> (we use keep alive between Load Balancer and httpd :P)
13:04:27  <peter1138> Pikka, 64 rail types!
13:04:29  <andythenorth> peter1138 was fixing that for railtypes :D ^^^
13:04:56  <Eddi|zuHause> huh? why would one-way compatibility be impossible?
13:04:58  <Pikka> does adding inrl to the rail compatible rail type list not work?
13:05:13  <Pikka> elrl and rail are one-way compatible :)
13:05:18  <andythenorth> doesn't it make INRL -> RAIL?
13:05:23  <andythenorth> we went round this with NRT
13:05:51  <andythenorth> making ROAD vehicles HAUL compatible makes all HAUL vehicles ROAD compatible
13:06:12  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: your main problem will be loading your railtype alongside a different trackset
13:06:25  <andythenorth> won't be my problem :)
13:06:28  <andythenorth> I don't use tracksets
13:06:54  <andythenorth> mumble mumble https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/issues/5006
13:07:03  <Eddi|zuHause> then it maybe is better that you don't make one :p
13:09:23  <Pikka> personally, I'd just add a steel mill shunter and keep the track types completely separate, if I did it at all
13:09:42  <TrueBrain> okay .. website seems to be doing fine. Traffic is up, no more 404s .. sweet :D
13:09:49  <TrueBrain> tnx a lot andythenorth for all the help with porting it etc :D
13:10:03  <Pikka> I mean, if your goal is to stop people running steel through passenger stations - with rail -> inrl, what's stopping them running their passenger trains through the steel mill?
13:12:39  <peter1138> andythenorth, yeah could do it now
13:12:55  <Eddi|zuHause> i'd just add the steel wagons to HEQS in both tram and rail style, and leave the player with all the options
13:13:33  <LordAro> TrueBrain: huzzah
13:13:36  <peter1138> I'm off to visit the MiL in hospital again, will be able to fiddle in the evening on the laptop.
13:14:15  <Eddi|zuHause> and if you want to make industrial rail, make it visual only, fully compatible with RAIL (and fully optional)
13:14:58  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN commented on issue #5006: Railtypes: 'hide railtype' flag https://git.io/fhKHZ
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13:25:08  <andythenorth> so the main thing I want to solve
13:25:57  *** Ani has quit IRC
13:26:02  <andythenorth> is 100mph torpedo wagons http://www.trainweb.org/pbne/images/hot%20metal%20cars/65.01.jpg
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13:26:23  <andythenorth> lots of Horse is fake, but it seems 1 fake too far
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13:27:53  <SomeIndianGuy_> Ani
13:28:58  <Wolf01> andythenorth, why you don't make 2 different grfs?
13:29:07  <Pikka> "solve" in what way, andy? wagon speed limits aren't enough?
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13:33:00  <andythenorth> they are, but then my network is messed up by slow trains :P
13:33:27  <andythenorth> in my happy fantasy world, these wagons are like Horse metro trains
13:33:32  <andythenorth> slower than normal, but insane capacity per tile
13:34:04  <andythenorth> but eh, I can't be arsed to draw a full set of wagons and stuff just for that
13:41:23  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't understand the problem
13:42:02  <Eddi|zuHause> you can build separate lines for slow trains even without there being a separate track type
13:42:42  <Eddi|zuHause> also, like i said, put the wagon into HEQS instead of horse, it fits much better there
13:43:20  <TrueBrain> 11 people already downloaded the latest nightly! :P
13:44:05  <andythenorth> :)
13:44:08  <Wolf01> Oh, nightlies!
13:44:29  <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: might be time for an announcement?
13:44:57  <andythenorth> oof I think my requests for steel mill trains in UKRS are why pikka made Pineapple and deleted all the trains :P
13:45:00  <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: yeah ... you properly want to go to www.openttd.org .... :P
13:45:09  * andythenorth might be mis-remembering
13:45:30  <Pikka> doesn't ring a bell
13:45:33  <Wolf01> It seem I should compose a new riddle for the announcement
13:45:38  <nielsm> https://twitter.com/ppathole/status/1088844771966238721?s=21
13:45:50  <Pikka> steel mill trains are odd though
13:45:52  <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: it's not april 1st yet
13:46:14  <Pikka> they're really part of the industry rather than "transport"
13:46:26  <andythenorth> I broke that with FIRS Steeltown :)
13:46:45  <andythenorth> you get to move stuff around between parts of the process
13:47:23  <Eddi|zuHause> i'll maintain that HEQS is the place for specialized transport methods like this
13:47:27  <TrueBrain> hmm .. I have no clue how to run something like webalizer over the new logs ..
13:47:33  <TrueBrain> and google is not helping :(
13:47:49  <andythenorth> are they not just apache logs?
13:47:56  <TrueBrain> somewhat, but yeah
13:48:03  <TrueBrain> just you would think others have foundout how to do that best on k8s
13:48:27  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: I re-phrase my problem....
13:48:47  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on pull request #7108: Feature: Group liveries, and livery window usability enhancements. https://git.io/fhKQR
13:48:52  <andythenorth> - given a train grf that has a vehicle-and-railtype schema that appears to work....
13:49:10  <andythenorth> - where else can I insert more fun stuff without degrading the overall playability? :P
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13:49:27  <andythenorth> that is really the question
13:49:31  <Eddi|zuHause> how would that change my answer?
13:49:35  <andythenorth> might not
13:49:51  <andythenorth> I can't see how to make industrial stuff work except via NRT
13:50:05  <andythenorth> I manged to jam high speed trains into Horse though, with care
13:50:17  <Eddi|zuHause> maglev?
13:50:21  <andythenorth> no
13:50:31  <andythenorth> conventional rail, no new types
13:50:44  <andythenorth> but I reset the speeds lower down the roster
13:50:47  <Eddi|zuHause> high-speed as in TGV/Eurostar?
13:50:50  <andythenorth> yes
13:51:09  <andythenorth> required rebalancing lots of other stuff, but works
13:51:10  <Eddi|zuHause> a 1990 version and a 2020 version?
13:51:16  <andythenorth> yes
13:51:33  <Eddi|zuHause> sounds fine to me so far
13:51:45  <andythenorth> yeah, but industrial rail is unconvcing
13:51:57  <andythenorth> so I think I put it out
13:52:05  <Eddi|zuHause> i'd say scrap all your ideas for industrial rail
13:52:33  <andythenorth> so is NRT done yet? o_O
13:52:38  <Eddi|zuHause> make your wagons generic enough to carry all cargos in each generation
13:53:21  <andythenorth> NRT PR is stale, and should really be closed https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/pull/6811
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13:54:28  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i'd say keep off on that until after release dust settled and people got time to consider bigger PRs
13:55:53  <andythenorth> so do we have a changelog for nightly vs. 1.8.0?
13:55:53  <nielsm> https://www.openttd.org/contact.html  <- are the mirrors still relevant?
13:55:58  <nielsm> with the new infra
13:56:14  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think the mirrors have changed
13:56:38  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh merged pull request #7107: Add: Visual Studio 2019 project files https://git.io/fhK6z
13:57:50  <andythenorth> LordAro: you started a changelog for 1.9.0?
13:58:25  <LordAro> andythenorth: https://gist.github.com/LordAro/71085728a63bb7cb2e07b4f222e3fefd
13:58:47  <LordAro> still needs signficantly cutting down, imo
13:59:26  * andythenorth considering a forum post about what's in the nightly
13:59:40  <andythenorth> features
14:00:51  <LordAro> and some changes, probably
14:01:30  <nielsm> and a crash bug in mapgen?
14:01:32  <andythenorth> I'm going to pick out a TL;DR headlines
14:02:42  <Eddi|zuHause> "Remove: PSP, WinCE support"
14:03:07  <Eddi|zuHause> dangit, i wanted to try putting it on a WinCE device :p
14:03:40  <nielsm> hm do I still have a phone running windows mobile 7?
14:03:43  <nielsm> :)
14:09:22  <LordAro> andythenorth: updated gist slightly to update it up to today
14:11:32  <nielsm> maybe put the added currencies together
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14:12:10  <LordAro> oh, forgot about the other one
14:13:14  <Eddi|zuHause> not having looked over the list, remember to cut out "fix"es for things that weren't broken in 1.8.0 yet
14:13:35  <LordAro> it's not verbatim :p
14:13:43  <LordAro> i think i caught most of those already
14:15:40  <TrueBrain> 14:55 <nielsm> https://www.openttd.org/contact.html <- are the mirrors still relevant? <- for now, yes. I have yet to move everything from the mirrors to the CDN
14:15:47  <TrueBrain> will take a few weeks before I get to that
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14:18:09  <andythenorth> https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=1217791#p1217791
14:19:05  <andythenorth> oof, isn't there an axle load feature in railtypes? o_O
14:22:03  <nielsm> oooh, idea for how to waste a lot of the free landscape array space for rail tiles: count how much load has travelled over the piece of rail, and on tile ticks that calculate maintenance costs include that load amount in the calculation
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14:22:17  <Pikka> only in the "standardized railtype scheme" D:
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14:23:37  <Pikka> "Still not convinced? Feel free to use railtype labels of your own, but know that you will likely come to regret that at some point in the future."
14:26:10  <Eddi|zuHause>  <andythenorth> oof, isn't there an axle load feature in railtypes? o_O <-- not as a property, it's all "fake"
14:27:23  <andythenorth> ha ha
14:27:54  * andythenorth briefly considered a really over-powered version of narrow gauge
14:31:32  <Pikka> monorail?
14:31:36  <Pikka> the narrowest of gauges
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14:33:18  <nielsm> is monorail infinitely narrow or infinitely wide?
14:34:05  <andythenorth> both
14:34:09  <Eddi|zuHause> have you ever looked at a monorail? it is narrow, but far from "infinite"
14:34:26  <andythenorth> the gauge though
14:35:00  <nielsm> and are those suspended monorails actually monorails or more like one-and-a-half rail maybe
14:35:51  <nielsm> and is a cable lift up a mountainside a rail?
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15:35:45  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] alexanderweiss commented on issue #6800: [OSX] NSScrollWheel event handling for 2D scrolling should use scrollingDeltaX/Y https://git.io/fhKFE
15:44:41  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] alexanderweiss opened pull request #7109: [OSX] Use high-precision scrolling properties for 2D scrolling https://git.io/fhKFD
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15:47:31  <supermop_Home> yo
15:48:33  <andythenorth> yo
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15:52:24  <Pikka> yoyo
15:55:01  <Borg> techno electro.... yo yo yo.. ;)
15:57:30  <TrueBrain> so I see a 404 ... "GET /xmlrpc.php HTTP/1.1"
15:57:33  <TrueBrain> so I look at the UA
15:57:40  <TrueBrain> "Gecko/20100101 Firefox/4.0.1"
15:57:47  <TrueBrain> yeah .... we are not the only one who can be slow in updates :P
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15:58:38  <nielsm> TrueBrain, I think that's someone trying to exploit wordpress :)
15:59:21  <TrueBrain> we used to have that xmlrpc.php
15:59:36  <TrueBrain> it was used to communicate with the IRC bot
15:59:52  <TrueBrain> just no clue why any Firefox would ever reach out for it :P
15:59:57  <TrueBrain> especially one from 2010 :P
16:00:48  <nielsm> https://0x0.st/sCY0.ogg  <- left channel ttd dos in dosbox, right channel my reimplementation of the adlib music driver
16:00:53  <nielsm> timing is _almost_ correct
16:00:56  <TrueBrain> okay .. now I want IRC notification when a new nightly is produced ...
16:01:01  <nielsm> and it also seems to sound right
16:01:12  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 opened pull request #7110: Add: more options for translators https://git.io/fhKba
16:01:17  <TrueBrain> nice :D
16:01:44  <glx> that's something I noticed yesterday while working on newgrf window
16:02:32  <TrueBrain> nielsm: timing gets more and more off the longer it goes on :P
16:02:38  <TrueBrain> which gives a nice tune to it, tbh :P
16:02:45  <nielsm> TrueBrain yes my tempo is slightly wrong
16:03:07  <TrueBrain> nobody would ever notice it, if they dont put it side to side
16:03:09  <TrueBrain> but yeah :P
16:04:33  <glx> sounds nice too me
16:04:36  <glx> *to
16:05:15  <andythenorth> hmm
16:05:34  <nielsm> @calc 77.748 / 77.916
16:05:34  <DorpsGek> nielsm: 0.997843831819
16:05:39  <andythenorth> Pikka: got any super zoom train progress then? o_O
16:05:39  <nielsm> ratio
16:05:45  <nielsm> mine is too slow by
16:05:59  <glx> by almost nothing
16:06:04  <nielsm> uh too fast by
16:06:14  <glx> less than 1%
16:06:35  <glx> good enough I'd say
16:07:59  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth commented on pull request #7108: Feature: Group liveries, and livery window usability enhancements. https://git.io/fhKbH
16:08:08  <Pikka> only bits and pieces, andythenorth
16:08:33  <Pikka> only one more freight wagon to go and they're all at least partially done :D
16:08:48  <andythenorth> I am trying to get inspired to finish the Horses
16:11:12  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on pull request #7110: Add: more options for translators https://git.io/fhKbd
16:14:31  <nielsm> but yeah I'm considering to attempt to make/find a full general midi patchset for opl3 synth and letting my adlib music patch also play back regular midi files
16:14:38  <nielsm> for the heck of it
16:14:53  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on pull request #7110: Add: more options for translators https://git.io/fhKNe
16:17:17  <supermop_Home> group livery huh
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16:21:06  <andythenorth> why doesn't the clone button show on vehicles if game is paused? o_O
16:23:34  <Samu> I don't feel confident of my code :|
16:24:17  <Samu> https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pungzsg9l
16:25:20  <Samu> i guess i'm multi purposing the function too much
16:27:50  <Samu> if helicopter doesn't need automatic servicing but has a pending replace and service at helipad is enabled...
16:28:13  <andythenorth> where is V453000? :P https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=1217795#p1217795
16:29:39  <Samu> ... then search for a hangar
16:30:06  <Samu> if helicopter needs automatic servicing but doesn't have a pending replace and service at helipad is enabled...
16:30:44  <LordAro> @seen V453000
16:30:44  <DorpsGek> LordAro: V453000 was last seen in #openttd 3 weeks, 4 days, 1 hour, 19 minutes, and 22 seconds ago: <V453000> :0
16:31:09  <Samu> ... and if there are helipads at the station, then don't search for a hangar, service at helipad
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16:32:58  <Samu> if I'm not a helicopter, I am assuming that airports have hangars
16:33:30  <Samu> ... go to the hangar of the airport i'm heading to in the current destination
16:34:51  <supermop_Home> should I get an external dvd drive for my surface so I can install 10 year old version of photoshop?
16:35:14  <nielsm> hmm :P
16:35:38  <nielsm> I'd first look into capturing an image of the disc somewhere else and transferring it over network
16:37:21  <Eddi|zuHause> supermop_Home: external DVD drives is for noobs, i once installed win95 from a CD onto a computer with no CD drive, by copying the install files onto diskettes swapping back and forth with a computer that had one
16:37:49  <glx> yeah make an iso of the disc and get it via network, windows natively support iso
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16:42:47  <Samu> what should be the behaviour of helicopters that needs to service but have no pending replace and their closest hangar is in the other side of the world?
16:43:13  <Samu> assume service at helipads is disabled
16:43:18  <glx> destination too far, abort
16:43:38  <glx> and blame the player ;)
16:43:46  <Samu> ok, then I'm in the right direction after all
16:44:42  <Samu> current behaviour makes them go to the other side of the world to service
16:45:31  <Samu> now a similar question
16:45:50  <Samu> what should be the behaviour of helicopters that have a pending replace and their closest hangar is in the other side of the world?
16:46:05  <andythenorth> too far
16:46:17  <glx> same, if the hangar is out of range, it's too far
16:46:26  <Samu> oh, but it's a one-time service
16:46:50  <glx> the player should place the hangars correctly
16:47:29  <nielsm> if the aircraft has a route between stations with no hangars, it can receive no service
16:47:31  <nielsm> very simple
16:47:33  <Samu> you're aware that autoreplace/autorenew would never happen then
16:47:41  <nielsm> yes that sure sucks for the player
16:47:44  <nielsm> they should have been less dumb
16:48:37  <glx> helistations exist for a reason ;)
16:50:19  <Samu> hmmm but one could argue that aircraft can go anywhere
16:50:57  <Samu> and this a one-time service, it not going into a service interval
16:51:02  <Samu> of 100 days
16:51:11  <Samu> but of 20 years or whatever their lifetime is
16:52:27  <nielsm> don't make vehicles go somewhere the player didn't want them to
16:53:33  <Samu> considering the current behaviour, it's gonna be a shift
16:53:59  <Samu> on master, they will go to the other side of the world for service/autorenew
17:04:21  <nielsm> if it was still possible to build a dos version of ottd (I'm not sure djgpp is updated with c++11?) I wonder if it would be possible to have it load and call the original music drivers...
17:04:26  <nielsm> (for the heck of it)
17:04:48  <Samu> hum... the helicopter situation is very delicate
17:05:47  <LordAro> i have no issues with weird situations (i.e. the only depot is on the other side of the map), if just should be consistent
17:06:49  <LordAro> if there was only one train depot on the whole map, you wouldn't be surprised when the train made a massive detour to go to it
17:07:01  <LordAro> repeat for all transport types
17:07:28  <Eddi|zuHause> IIRC servicing is skipped if the depot is too far away for trains
17:07:37  <Samu> but trains automatic servicing has a max cost
17:07:42  <Samu> yes what Eddi|zuHause said
17:08:06  <LordAro> well ok, aircraft should do the same
17:08:14  <LordAro> depending on what determines "too far"
17:08:45  <glx> I think too far should be the same as the distance check between airports
17:09:40  <Samu> it involves a lot of variables... the aircraft's own max range, the service interval being too short or too lengthy, the service at helipad setting, breakdowns enabled
17:10:11  <Samu> it's a mix of variables that would have to present an elegant behaviour
17:10:26  <LordAro> i don't think any of that is really relevant
17:10:32  <LordAro> just look at what trains do, and replicate it
17:11:01  <nielsm> step 1: ignore the "service at helipad" setting, pretend it's always disabled
17:11:01  <Samu> the own station having hangar or not
17:11:17  <nielsm> it's a bad hack introduced by ttdpatch which nobody should be using for new games
17:11:27  <LordAro> could remove the setting :>
17:11:39  <LordAro> everyone's always saying how there are too many settings
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17:12:42  <nielsm> you can still have landing at helipads reset the service counter if the setting is enablæed, just don't take the setting into account for service planning
17:12:59  <nielsm> i.e. don't send a heli to a helipad (with no hangar) for service
17:13:11  <glx> yeah makes sense
17:13:51  <glx> service order should need a real service
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17:19:34  <andythenorth> hmm
17:19:39  <andythenorth> could add high-speed railtype
17:19:44  <andythenorth> curve speed bonus
17:19:47  <andythenorth> fancy appearance
17:19:55  <andythenorth> TMWFTLB? o_O
17:23:00  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: just use nutracks?
17:25:55  <andythenorth> that too
17:26:02  <andythenorth> outsourcing
17:26:35  <andythenorth> unrelated: why does the aircraft stuff need changing?
17:28:33  <Samu> to fix #6493
17:30:36  <Samu> more specifically, what peter1138 wrote there
17:30:57  <Samu> the service interval is the cause
17:31:47  <Samu> but more problems arise when the service interval is no longer the issue, like going out of the way to depots on the other side of the world
17:35:05  <Samu> i'm more inclined into allowing them go around the world if it's a pending replace, but if it's only a service, keep them in-place unserviced
17:36:01  <Samu> or service based on DistanceSquare
17:37:02  <Samu> line 51 and 53 https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pungzsg9l#line-51
17:38:46  <Gabda> I've managed to do the town voronoi "map" :)
17:39:21  <Eddi|zuHause> via flood fill or via triangulation?
17:39:22  <Gabda> all that is left is make the code presentable, which is about twice the effort of the coding...
17:39:52  <andythenorth> oof
17:39:53  <Gabda> a type of floodfill
17:39:58  * andythenorth has had a horrible idea
17:40:07  <Eddi|zuHause> just one?
17:40:15  <andythenorth> well
17:40:25  <Gabda> I cannot find the method of triangulation on Manhattan distances
17:40:45  <Eddi|zuHause> Gabda: voronoi really only works with euclidean
17:41:55  <andythenorth> so one idea was that we just be done with ship pathfinding nonsense on open water
17:42:03  <andythenorth> and add tile-based sea routes
17:42:09  <andythenorth> we can already build canal on water, so eh :P
17:42:21  <andythenorth> but do them like roads, so companies can share
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17:42:39  <Gabda> you have pay to pacify the ocean?
17:42:57  <Gabda> (on specific tiles)
17:43:23  <andythenorth> kinda
17:43:32  <andythenorth> that wasn't the horrible idea though
17:43:54  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: that would work, but you would give up the really nice property of "just slap down docks and go" of ships
17:44:03  <andythenorth> yes
17:44:22  <Eddi|zuHause> which i would give -1
17:44:31  <andythenorth> it would only work if there was some kind of polyline tool, which I tried the patch for on rails, and dislike
17:46:15  <Gabda> Eddi|zuHause: I used something like the Fortune's sweep line algorithm
17:46:16  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: it could work implicitly, upon changing ship orders, it calculates a path and then "builds" the ship path, then pathfinding only works on ship path tiles instead of open sea tiles
17:48:12  <Gabda> but I only kept the sweep line part
17:48:40  <Samu> pretending serviceathelipad doesn't exist is difficult... it is the main cause of this fix
17:48:49  <Gabda> fill everything where the line swept, and if a new town gets in, floodfill the already swept area
17:49:28  <Gabda> what functions should I use to measure the time of the filling?
17:49:39  <Samu> of this bug, i meant
17:50:18  <nielsm> Gabda: https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/blob/master/src/framerate_type.h
17:50:33  <nielsm> you can add a temporary performance element there for your own testing
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17:51:36  <Samu> canal water is too alike sea water
17:51:48  <Samu> would be hard to distinguish
17:51:55  <Samu> visually
17:52:48  <Gabda> nielsm: it works with one time events as well?
17:53:04  <Gabda> I only want to print a runtime into the console
17:53:33  <andythenorth> so the actual horrible idea
17:54:04  <andythenorth> give train + road + sea tiles a 'wear factor' byte
17:54:16  <andythenorth> degrade it statistically as vehicles pass over it
17:54:28  <andythenorth> and in the spec, allow for vehicles with a negative wear factor
17:54:41  <andythenorth> allow maintenance cost to read the wear factor
17:55:04  <andythenorth> and provide optional tables for things like speed limit vs. wear factor
17:55:21  <andythenorth> also allow modifying a consist breakdown chance on wear factor :P
17:55:59  <andythenorth> so 'normal' vehicles increase wear, but maintenance trains, snow ploughs, dredgers ettc reduce it
17:56:30  <Gabda> and wear factor for rail signals, and after some time, they give a wrong signal?
17:56:34  <andythenorth> :P
17:56:49  <andythenorth> I prefer nielsm's idea of requiring signal boxes :)
17:57:04  <Samu> buoys
17:59:09  <Gabda> Samu: how did you measure the time when you sent the ~5000 ships to the depot?
17:59:17  <nielsm> Gabda ah if it's not a repeating thing just do whatever I guess
17:59:18  <Gabda> with the built in framerate?
17:59:25  <nielsm> the <chrono> std header is decent
17:59:50  <Gabda> ok, thanks, I'll look into it
17:59:58  <nielsm> https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/blob/master/src/framerate_gui.cpp#L196
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18:10:12  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] btzy commented on issue #7042: Use intrinsics for bit twiddling? https://git.io/fhKhm
18:10:59  <supermop_Home> why do lime kilns keep building on top of hills
18:14:10  <supermop_Home> andythenorth: give lime kilns an owner byte - every tick that the lime kiln is on top of the mountain increases a counter, when it reaches some value the manager has a nervous breakdown because he built his kiln in an inaccessible wilderness
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18:15:15  <andythenorth> oof
18:15:35  <andythenorth> supermop_Home: build canal locks up to them :P
18:15:40  <andythenorth> ships don't feel the gradient
18:19:24  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick opened pull request #7111: Codechange: Rework automatic service for helicopters (#6493) https://git.io/fhKhu
18:19:43  <Samu> i tried to explain the best I could
18:19:51  <Samu> what do you say?
18:21:01  <Samu> my english needs fixing
18:21:03  <Samu> i be
18:21:06  <Samu> lieve
18:21:34  <Samu> yeah, terrible terrible english
18:25:55  <Eddi|zuHause> Gabda: we used to have TIC and TOC
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18:28:45  <Samu> just edited with better english, hopefully it's clearer
18:28:45  <nielsm> made some more recordings from dosbox and my code and aligned them: https://0x0.st/sC6_.ogg
18:28:59  <nielsm> also timestretched my output a bit to match them better
18:29:13  <nielsm> I think they're close enough to identical, so might clean up for PR soon :P
18:29:45  <supermop_Home> I really just need PS, ID and illustrator for a couple days to put together this donut kiosk design package
18:30:04  <supermop_Home> i guess i could just do it after hours at the office
18:31:12  <Samu> damn it, i always forget this aircraft_cmd.cpp:448:139: warning: '&&' within '||' [-Wlogical-op-parentheses]
18:33:31  <nielsm> it's a warning because nobody can ever remember which of those binds tighter
18:34:04  <nielsm> so everyone puts parentheses around the subexpressions to make their own intention clear and make sure they don't get bugs for misremembering
18:35:44  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick updated pull request #7111: Codechange: Rework automatic service for helicopters (#6493) https://git.io/fhKhu
18:36:07  <Samu> fixed
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18:38:05  <Simons_Mith> Looking at interest rates/inflation...
18:38:19  <Simons_Mith> It says:
18:38:23  <Simons_Mith> void StartupEconomy() { 	_economy.interest_rate = _settings_game.difficulty.initial_" target="_blank">game.difficulty.initial_" target="_blank">game.difficulty.initial_" target="_blank">game.difficulty.initial_interest; 	_economy.infl_amount = _settings_game.difficulty.initial_" target="_blank">game.difficulty.initial_" target="_blank">game.difficulty.initial_" target="_blank">game.difficulty.initial_interest; _economy.infl_amount_pr = max(0, _settings_game.difficulty.initial_" target="_blank">game.difficulty.initial_" target="_blank">game.difficulty.initial_" target="_blank">game.difficulty.initial_interest - 1);
18:39:09  <peter1138> Evening.
18:39:28  <Simons_Mith> In english, inflation rate in% = interest rate in %, inflation rate for payments = interest rate -1 in %
18:40:02  <Simons_Mith> So if you've got an interest rate of 2%, doesn't that make the game harder than if you had interest rate of say 8%
18:40:22  <peter1138> Yes.
18:40:38  <Simons_Mith> That doesn't seem fair
18:40:45  <nielsm> harder in the late game, easier in the early game
18:41:02  <nielsm> since interest rate usually only matters in the first few years
18:41:41  <peter1138> It's a bug in the original game, I guess. Easy settings make inflation hard, hard settings make inflation easier...
18:42:02  <Simons_Mith> When do you count 'late' game as starting?
18:42:16  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN commented on pull request #7108: Feature: Group liveries, and livery window usability enhancements. https://git.io/fhKjn
18:42:22  <Simons_Mith> I'd have said after 75 years at least
18:43:29  <peter1138> model name	: Intel(R) Core(TM)2 Duo CPU     P7450  @ 2.13GHz
18:43:35  <peter1138> I could do with a better laptop :/
18:44:07  <Simons_Mith> I just tried a 1800s game with 2% interest rates and inflation on, and those settings started to hurt after just 25 years
18:44:21  <peter1138> Yup.
18:44:27  <nielsm> I should probably go import the dbopl.cpp emulator instead, it doesn't make stupid DC offsets the ken silverman one does... https://0x0.st/sC6Y.png
18:44:39  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, don't play with interest rates before 1920
18:44:49  <peter1138> nielsm, you can filter the DC offsets quite easily, IIRC.
18:45:01  <peter1138> Most people play with inflation off.
18:45:08  <Eddi|zuHause> you need technological advancement to combat the inflation
18:45:08  <nielsm> peter1138 sure, but the dbopl emulator is probably more accurate regardless
18:45:16  <Gabda> Eddi|zuHause: TIC TOC works fine. How can I interpret the outcome? 5,3 million is small?
18:45:20  <peter1138> It should probably be changed to be more useful.
18:45:23  <Simons_Mith> Indeed. Or fix the bug.
18:45:32  <Eddi|zuHause> Gabda: no idea
18:46:24  <Borg> peter1138: what inflation is suppose to do? to the gameplay?
18:47:06  <Samu> inflation is fine if every company starts at the same date
18:47:24  <Samu> but if one picks up in the middle of a game session, it sucks
18:47:27  <Borg> I never use it personaly...
18:47:33  <Simons_Mith> I was pondering making interest rates variable in-game, y'see.
18:47:59  <Simons_Mith>  I also know about the 170-year cutoff, because prices get too out of whack
18:48:40  <peter1138> Bah, laptop powered off :/
18:48:41  <Eddi|zuHause> @calc (1.04/1.03)**170
18:48:41  <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 5.16820201339
18:48:49  <Eddi|zuHause> @calc (1.02/1.01)**170
18:48:49  <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 5.33821002416
18:48:51  <peter1138> Borg, it adjusts costs to make the game harder later.
18:48:54  <Simons_Mith> But if youtook out the -1 in the infl_amount_pr, payments and prices would grow at the same rate and inflation would be mostly cosmetic#
18:49:05  <peter1138> Simons_Mith, quite.
18:49:07  <Eddi|zuHause> the long term difference isn't really that big
18:49:10  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] frosch123 requested changes for pull request #7110: Add: more options for translators https://git.io/fhKjr
18:49:30  <peter1138> I think it could be fixed by making one of the rates fixed, and the other variable.
18:49:49  <peter1138> So the difference is larger on hard settings.
18:49:54  <Borg> peter1138: hmm an idea.. instead of inflation... reduce payments slowly?
18:50:01  <peter1138> Although, I don't think those easy/hard settings exist any more :p
18:50:07  <Borg> so prices will stay the same... but game gets harder and harder
18:50:13  <Eddi|zuHause> there should also be a loan interest that is higher
18:50:36  <peter1138> Yeah, loan interest is silly.
18:50:54  <nielsm> nah you do want to increase costs rather than decrease payments, otherwise you get rounding errors becoming significant in payments
18:51:26  <peter1138> ^
18:51:38  <peter1138> Yeah, our money values are integers.
18:51:45  <Borg> ah..
18:51:46  <Borg> ok
18:51:46  <peter1138> You'd end up earning nothing.
18:52:26  <Eddi|zuHause> there was once a stock market in milan which crashed, because they used round down on everything, instead of common "balanced" rounding rules
18:52:28  <Simons_Mith> Can gamescripts change interest rates yet?
18:52:46  <Eddi|zuHause> don't think so
18:52:54  <nielsm> if you have inflation in costs and inflation in earnings pulse around an average at different rates maybe you'd get something slightly more interesting?
18:53:12  <nielsm> (~~biorhythms~~)
18:53:59  <peter1138> Yeah, variable rates would be cool.
18:54:05  <Simons_Mith> Yeah.
18:54:31  <peter1138> The only thing is that in the real world, the transport company decides how much to charge.
18:54:34  <frosch123> LordAro: nielsm: when you add newgrf stuff, please document it: https://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Main_Page
18:55:03  <nielsm> did I ever manage to get a working login...
18:55:03  <Simons_Mith> I think I'd also increase the granularity on the interest rates to 1/4%.
18:55:05  <nielsm> not sure
18:55:41  <peter1138> Interest rates could probably be based on 100x values?
18:55:46  <peter1138> So 1 = 0.01
18:56:00  <peter1138> Pretty fine grained then, maybe too much.
18:56:07  <nielsm> ppm
18:56:22  <nielsm> or just promille
18:56:22  <Simons_Mith> We use 1/4s nowadays, that probably fine enough
18:56:47  <peter1138> We do for bank interest rate, but if you wanted something based on stock markets...
18:57:17  <Simons_Mith> I was thinking, start a game in the 1800s, interest rate 1-2%, inflation 1+1/4 to 2+1/4
18:57:35  <Simons_Mith> Interest rates change only every few decades, maybe
18:57:46  <Simons_Mith> Then things speed up a bit after 1950 say
18:57:57  <Simons_Mith> and theres more and finer fluctuation
18:58:11  <nielsm> I'd say fixed values throughout the game, but a GS API to control them
18:58:51  * peter1138 recompiles and hopes the laptop doesn't turn off this time.
18:59:11  <peter1138> nielsm, agreed.
18:59:16  <Simons_Mith> But can't you only have one Gamesctript? Shame if you want Villages is Villages and 'realistic' interest
18:59:25  <peter1138> Yeah, that's a slight bummer.
18:59:55  <peter1138> GS is the right way forward though.
19:00:28  <Simons_Mith> Oh, that reminds me, on Gamescripts
19:00:51  <Simons_Mith> You can only have one GS, because we assumme there's a risk they'll conflict
19:00:54  <frosch123> Simons_Mith: when gs was designed, we expected people would start to combine multiple gs into one, like a "gs pack". but noone ever did that
19:01:31  <Simons_Mith> What if you could suspend a GS and then turn another one on?
19:01:31  <peter1138> if it's possible to run multiple GS, maybe we should allow it, but let users pick up the pieces? :p
19:01:52  <Simons_Mith> Say you run Villages is villages 11 months out of the year
19:02:13  <Simons_Mith> in the 12th month you run the mission GS or something
19:02:18  <peter1138> Not really the point, you'd still have one GS fiddling with things the other GS doesn't know about.
19:02:25  <peter1138> It's not that they can't run concurrently.
19:02:56  <Simons_Mith> Yeah, but if you have a GS that only fiddles with one tiny thing, then it can fiddle, then go back to sleep again
19:02:58  <Gabda> Eddi|zuHause: tried chrono as well, although it is subjective, the creation of the "closest town map array" it took: 512x512 map (400 towns) 1.8 ms; 1024x1024 (800 towns) 8 ms; 1024x1024 (1600 towns) 17 ms.
19:03:12  <peter1138> You can do that with them running at the same time.
19:03:15  <Simons_Mith> Not all GSs would conflict
19:03:27  <peter1138> AIs are capable of running 'concurrently'
19:03:40  <peter1138> Woo, it built this time :D
19:03:46  <Eddi|zuHause> Gabda: that sounds fine, if it doesn't have to be fully recalculated during the game
19:03:54  <nielsm> there's no way to know whether two GS would conflict, apart from some terrible kind of "capabilities declaration"
19:04:19  <nielsm> and that would probably also cause false positives and false negatives
19:04:23  <Gabda> it only have to be corrected when a new town is founded (but not recalculated)
19:04:30  <Eddi|zuHause> Gabda: main problem is usually adding/removing towns, mostly in the scenario editor
19:04:31  <Simons_Mith> Give AIs greater powers? that does blur the difference between an AI and a GS though
19:04:44  <peter1138> AIs are players, though.
19:04:48  <Gabda> and I don't know if it is possible, but it have to recalculated if a city gets deleted
19:04:52  <nielsm> an AI must not be able to do anything a human player can't
19:05:04  <Gabda> so it is possible
19:05:14  <Simons_Mith> Why not?
19:05:19  <Eddi|zuHause> Gabda: but a voronoi partition can be done incremental, so adding/removing only affects a small area
19:05:36  <Simons_Mith> Actually, humans can cheat, so AIs should be permitted to as well
19:05:38  <peter1138> They're AIs, they play a company.
19:05:56  <peter1138> If you want an "AI" that modified the game behaviour, then we have that, but we call them gamescripts.
19:06:11  <Simons_Mith> But you can only have one Gamescript at a time
19:06:14  <peter1138> Yes.
19:06:31  <peter1138> It's better to allow multiple GS than to mess about allowing AI to do things players can't do.
19:06:43  <Eddi|zuHause> Simons_Mith: you must modify the gamescripts into libraries to run multiple
19:06:45  <nielsm> a gamescript controls the rules of the game, an AI plays by the rules set forth
19:06:48  <peter1138> Ultimately, allowing the AI to do these things will just end up with AIs conflicting as well.
19:07:13  <Simons_Mith> We already have e.g. TownCars, a trees AI and so on,
19:07:35  <Simons_Mith> There are a reasonable number of non-competing AIs with tighly-defined behvaours
19:07:49  <peter1138> Yeah but that's all stuff players CAN do.
19:07:57  <Simons_Mith> And you have to manually cheat them cash so they can do their thing anyway
19:08:16  <peter1138> That makes it worse, not better.
19:08:26  <Simons_Mith> I'm just want to automate the cheating part
19:08:43  <peter1138> I'd like to see a PR that allows multiple gamescripts.
19:08:49  <peter1138> (Not saying it'd be accepted)
19:09:05  <peter1138> But that's definitely preferable to mucking about with AIs.
19:09:36  <Simons_Mith> OK, but let's pick Towncars as an example
19:09:56  <nielsm> it plays by the rules of the game, it just doesn't play to win
19:10:14  <Samu> PeterN commented 2 days ago
19:10:14  <Samu> I think this is too big with too many changes. Should be split into separate PRs.
19:10:26  <Samu> but then... andythenorth exists
19:10:29  <Samu> :|
19:10:33  <Simons_Mith> Why not: Turn cheat mode on for TownCars, than let TownCars give itselfs 10,000,000s?
19:11:05  <Simons_Mith> This is kind of a halfway house between a GS and an AI
19:11:25  <Simons_Mith> Not suitable for competitive AIs, but quite useful for e.g. Towncars, road builder AIs etc.
19:11:26  <peter1138> Why not improve GS, instead of adding bodges for AIs.
19:11:48  <Simons_Mith> There's more AIs already written
19:12:08  <andythenorth> co-operative multi-tasking GS :P
19:12:09  <andythenorth> oof
19:12:13  <peter1138> Have a GS that dishes out money to a TownCars AI, for example...
19:12:20  <andythenorth> did I miss a memo?
19:12:35  <Gabda> Eddi|zuHause: deleting a town seems trickier. the info on closest town is important in the scenario editor as well?
19:12:41  <peter1138> andythenorth, just trying to work out a solution that isn't a bodge.
19:12:59  <Simons_Mith> but you still need two GS script slots - one for the Sugar Daddy GS, one for whatever else.
19:13:05  <peter1138> Yes, so?
19:13:13  <peter1138> 19:08 <@peter1138> I'd like to see a PR that allows multiple gamescripts.
19:13:14  <andythenorth> GS is pretty crippled
19:13:18  <andythenorth> due to only one
19:13:23  <andythenorth> and more than one is crippled
19:13:26  <andythenorth> due to you know
19:13:27  <Eddi|zuHause> Gabda: a scenario is a savegame, so it should contain all the information
19:13:27  <andythenorth> computing
19:13:28  <andythenorth> scope
19:13:33  <andythenorth> proper domain
19:13:34  <andythenorth> etc
19:13:51  <Samu> create GS's like they're libraries
19:14:54  <peter1138> andythenorth, you could've made a quick screenshot of the livery window changes while you were at it, eh?
19:15:02  <Eddi|zuHause> Simons_Mith: really, just convert the GS into a library, then you can make a "Master" GS that calls both GS, and all the conflict resolution is in the hands of the programmer
19:15:08  <peter1138> andythenorth, instead of forcing me to download and compile it here, in gloomy Wiltshire...
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19:15:27  <andythenorth> Wiltshire is lovely
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19:15:42  <andythenorth> you want me to screenshot?
19:15:45  <andythenorth> I'm only playing tanks
19:15:45  <Eddi|zuHause> Simons_Mith: do not burden the user with figuring out whether two GS can be run combined
19:15:57  <peter1138> Ok, group-livery is not actually working properly at the moment. Damn it, wtf.
19:16:28  <andythenorth> what broke?
19:16:39  <Simons_Mith> Eddi: Currently that burden is avoided by not letting 'em do it at all.
19:16:59  <nielsm> the solution is to make a GS library that knows how to recognize silly AIs and to give them free money, and then petition other GS authors to call that GS lib
19:17:10  <peter1138> Urgh, I hadn't fetched from my origin, so it grabbed an ancient version :/
19:17:28  <nielsm> letting AIs cheat on their own volition is not acceptable and I will fight any PR that wants to allow that
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19:17:54  <peter1138> And wouldn't be allowed in multiplayer.
19:18:03  <Simons_Mith> neilsm Quite a lot of people use AIs as helpers,
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19:18:17  <nielsm> yes and so what?
19:18:26  <Samu> https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/issues/6452 gonna try work on a better fix than just disabling the reset button
19:18:33  <nielsm> changing the rules of the game is the domain of game scripts
19:18:53  <Simons_Mith> Unfair and inappropriate to lump 'Helper' AIs with competing AIs.
19:19:10  <Simons_Mith> They are a halfway house between a GS and an AI
19:19:13  <peter1138> I don't understand why it's better to add bodges for AIs instead of improving GSs.
19:19:15  <nielsm> AI should not have been a scripting system running inside the game engine, but a separate network client that connects to a network server
19:19:36  <nielsm> so they can do nothing but play by the rules of the game
19:19:50  <peter1138> nielsm :)
19:19:53  <andythenorth> bot
19:20:07  <peter1138> Only issue with that is knowledge of game state.
19:20:17  <andythenorth> well that's easy
19:20:27  <andythenorth> just run them in an openttd client, but using a special scripting API
19:20:33  <andythenorth> solved
19:20:45  <peter1138> andythenorth, you could run them in an already running openttd instance, maybe.
19:20:47  <Simons_Mith> Twenty minutes' work, right?
19:20:51  <andythenorth> that was my thinking peter1138
19:21:02  <andythenorth> why do we need helper AIs?
19:21:14  <andythenorth> peter1138: also snow on tracks and crap
19:21:17  <andythenorth> unrelated idea
19:21:20  <peter1138> We've wasted longer than 20 minutes arguing against meddling with AI abilities.
19:21:33  <andythenorth> snowploughs, dredgers, etc
19:21:35  <peter1138> Hidden railtypes?
19:21:42  <andythenorth> 'wear and tear' counter
19:21:42  <peter1138> Hmm, should I go get a cider?
19:21:47  <andythenorth> probably
19:21:55  <peter1138> It's 750ml.
19:22:00  <peter1138> But it's from Aldi, so it's probably naff.
19:22:05  <Simons_Mith> Cider doesn'ty go with popcorn
19:22:07  <nielsm> Simons_Mith exlain why an AI assiting a player in some way should be allowed to do thing the player would not be able to (assuming the player is not touching ctrl-alt-c)
19:22:09  <andythenorth> vehicles have a wear and tear factor, can be +ve or -ve
19:22:14  <andythenorth> save it in the tile
19:22:24  <peter1138> I didn't bring any popcorn, though I almost did :/
19:22:25  <andythenorth> use it for silly things
19:22:31  * andythenorth very tanks
19:22:52  <Simons_Mith> neilsm: because many people play OpenTTRD as a sandbox
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19:23:02  <peter1138> So now I'm recompiling with the current version of group-livery, to make a screenshot, cos andythenorth didn't ;(
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19:23:31  <nielsm> those players can write their own gamescript then
19:23:38  <peter1138> Seriously we will not ever add features to allow the AI to cheat.
19:23:49  <Eddi|zuHause> Simons_Mith: "sandbox" is easy: load a price newgrf and set all factors to 0
19:23:52  <peter1138> But GS improvements are welcome.
19:23:57  <peter1138> ^
19:23:59  <nielsm> if you're playing sandbox then use basecosts grf to set all costs to zero
19:24:26  <Simons_Mith> How does cost=0 let you bulldoze an industry?
19:24:47  <Simons_Mith> How does cost=0 let you make change over a large map?
19:24:48  <peter1138> Woah, where did bulldozing an industry come into it?
19:25:12  <Simons_Mith> Kind of thing you might be doing in a sandbox game, and want an AI to help you with
19:25:12  <Eddi|zuHause> Simons_Mith: there is no way, ever, that an AI will be allowed to destroy industries
19:25:28  <Eddi|zuHause> Simons_Mith: if you want to do that, just press ctrl+alt+c
19:25:42  <Samu> AIs can't really do everything humans do
19:26:09  <Samu> they can't retrieve refitted capacity of engines
19:26:28  <andythenorth> peter1138: it's a hard knock life, but you have Lidll cider, right?
19:26:32  <andythenorth> and I did offer :P
19:26:41  <peter1138> andythenorth, please do it. This laptop is shit.
19:26:44  <Samu> but they can if the vehicle actually exists (bought vehicle)
19:26:44  <andythenorth> ok
19:26:45  <peter1138> And it's Aldi.
19:26:52  <andythenorth> should I cook chicken
19:26:53  <andythenorth> ?
19:27:00  <peter1138> Unless you prefer it raw?
19:27:16  <peter1138> Samu, issue/PR? :p
19:27:19  <andythenorth> oops I need a new game
19:27:27  <Eddi|zuHause> can Aldi and Lidl even survive brexit?
19:27:28  <andythenorth> my groups are called 'Red', 'Orange' etc
19:27:31  <andythenorth> which is confusing
19:27:53  <andythenorth> peter1138: https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=1217795#p1217795 :P
19:27:56  <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, of course, we'll just have to pay more.
19:28:17  <peter1138> andythenorth, yeah... I need the livery window itself :p
19:28:32  <andythenorth> I know, I just wanted to show off the rainbow
19:28:33  <Samu> AIs can't plan in advance, and most of what AI's do is plan in advance
19:28:35  <andythenorth> 'skittles patch'
19:28:38  <peter1138> :D
19:28:40  <andythenorth> 'taste the rainbow'
19:28:46  <peter1138> Why can't AIs plan?
19:28:47  <Samu> well they can, but not as well as humans
19:29:01  <peter1138> That's down to the ability of an AI writer to actually write an AI.
19:29:14  <peter1138> Of course, that's Hard problem, which is why we delegated it to user scripts :p
19:29:18  <Samu> because they can't retrieve correct costs, correct cargo capacities,
19:29:27  <peter1138> Ok
19:29:43  <peter1138> I'm glad all these deficiencies are documented and reported.
19:29:46  <Samu> i can't get the cost of an engine refited to xx cargo
19:29:53  <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: but not paying more is the entire point of these things?
19:29:58  <Samu> unless i buy the vehicle and refit it
19:30:07  <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, no, the point is BREXIT MEANS BREXIT AND WE'RE LEAVING
19:30:11  <peter1138> Or something
19:30:12  <Samu> but if i buy the vehicle, im no longer planning, im wasting money
19:30:13  <peter1138> I dunno.
19:30:24  <peter1138> SOVERIGNTY!
19:30:52  <Eddi|zuHause> because of a <2% margin?
19:30:57  <peter1138> Samu, how does a player know how much it'll cost to refit without buying?
19:31:16  <Eddi|zuHause> which is technically smaller than the measurement error?
19:31:27  <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, THE WILL OF THE PEOPLE
19:31:28  <Samu> players know in advance
19:31:39  <Eddi|zuHause> also, the referendum wasn't binding in the first place
19:31:41  <peter1138> MAJORITY SPOKE!
19:31:41  <nielsm> show me where it's displayed
19:31:46  <peter1138> Samu, why? How do they know?
19:32:06  <Simons_Mith> Yes, all 70% of 52%!
19:32:07  <Samu> by memory
19:32:16  <Samu> not really by the game telling it to you
19:32:18  <nielsm> you mean to say an AI cannot remember things?
19:32:22  <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, I'm obviously being sarcastic, I have no answer for you.
19:32:45  <peter1138> Pretty sure AIs can remember way more stuff than I can.
19:33:10  <peter1138> Hmm, what to have for dinner.
19:33:24  <peter1138> I'm thinking fish & chips (oven cooked from the freezer, not a takeaway)
19:33:29  <Eddi|zuHause> i have leftover bolognese
19:33:34  <Samu> yes, but they have to buy the vehicle in the first place
19:33:34  <Samu> humans don't have to
19:33:39  <Simons_Mith> Some  poor blighter has to code it though
19:33:39  <nielsm> the AI would just have to check if it has seen the refit costs for a vehicle before, and work with that knowledge if it has it, and otherwise take a gamble
19:33:39  <nielsm> (and learn)
19:33:49  <nielsm> yes humans do
19:33:49  <peter1138> Samu, what do humans do instead?
19:34:03  <Simons_Mith> Teahing an AI o read the OTTD wiki would be a real challenge
19:34:03  <peter1138> Or do you mean we're able to remember it from a previous game?
19:34:08  <peter1138> (Cos I bloody well don't)
19:34:30  <Samu> well humans know in advance that for example, an aircraft reffited to goods, will have 1/4 capacity
19:34:44  <peter1138> Samu, is that always the case?
19:34:54  <peter1138> If it is, then why can't an AI know that?
19:34:59  <Samu> if an AI wanna get the reffited capacity of an aircraft to goods, it can't know in advance
19:35:34  <Simons_Mith> If I was coding an AI, I think I'd buy-refit-sell and get the price that way
19:35:40  <Samu> because of NewGRFs which could alter these per vehicle set
19:35:47  <peter1138> Damn it, I should've brought that popcorn.
19:35:55  <Simons_Mith> If you sell a vehicle immediately you get pretty much full money back
19:36:02  <peter1138> Samu, but how would the player know that in advance then?
19:36:15  <Samu> by having played in previous games, oh come on
19:36:21  <Samu> you know what I mean
19:37:03  <nielsm> the AI needs to be coded to take a gamble that it will get a useful result
19:37:08  <peter1138> What if they've never played that set before?
19:37:14  <nielsm> and whether it's useful or not, keep whatever it learned in memory
19:37:19  <peter1138> What if they've not played it for a while and simply don't remember it all?
19:37:33  <Simons_Mith> What if it's changed since last time?
19:37:37  <Samu> :|
19:37:41  <nielsm> let the AI access the readme.txt and parse it!
19:37:54  <peter1138> Samu, btw, I'm not saying the AI shouldn't be able to get these costs.
19:38:00  <nielsm> oh wait, nobody ever puts useful info in readme.txt
19:38:07  <peter1138> nielsm, usually not :-)
19:38:28  <Simons_Mith> TBH, if the AI could get all that stuff, I'd like to have an AI that extracted all the info and gave it to ME
19:38:30  <peter1138> Samu, but you know, maybe make some feature requests.
19:38:54  <peter1138> And yeah, if the AI can get the costs, then it'd be useful for players too.
19:39:01  <nielsm> afaik newgrf can control the refit costs of a vehicle based on CB can't it? so they may vary from time to time
19:39:02  <peter1138> I'm not sure if it's possible due to how the callbacks work, mind you.
19:40:14  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth commented on pull request #7108: Feature: Group liveries, and livery window usability enhancements. https://git.io/fh6vZ
19:41:04  <andythenorth> ^^
19:41:06  <andythenorth> profit
19:41:10  <Samu> there is an AI library that "learns" engine capacity, refit costs of vehicles, but what it actually do is waste money... it needs money in advance to learn them
19:41:25  <andythenorth> that livery icon...sucks :P
19:41:26  <Samu> it's a meh... method imo
19:41:46  <Samu> if money is of concern for planning, this is a bad solution
19:42:00  <Borg> Samu: wait.. does GS doesnt have Test mode? with will return how much it spent?
19:42:24  <nielsm> so write an AI that takes a gamble the first time it sees a potentially useful vehicle!!
19:43:15  <nielsm> because that's sure what I do
19:43:17  <andythenorth> AI json manifest
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19:43:36  <Samu> yes, but that test mode for refit, for example, requires you to already have it bought
19:44:10  <Eddi|zuHause> machine-readable AI-Wiki interface
19:44:54  <Samu> and to learn the new capacity, you really have to pay the refit cost, if you sell it after, the refit cost will ... cost you
19:44:54  <Eddi|zuHause> TODO: figure out how to add cloud and blockchain
19:45:09  <Samu> not good for planning mode
19:45:16  <Simons_Mith> If you buy and then sell straight back, you get pretty much a full refund, don't you?
19:45:34  <nielsm> Samu: you're just completely ignoring what I'm suggesting aren't you?
19:45:38  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: data lake
19:45:51  <Simons_Mith> What proportion of refits have non-zero cost>?
19:45:58  <Eddi|zuHause> of course, wiki interface doesn't only mean reading, but also writing
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19:46:25  <Samu> what am I ignoring, sorry must have missed it
19:46:27  <Eddi|zuHause> Simons_Mith: i'd say most of them, unless the set was designed for autorefit
19:47:11  <nielsm> Samu: you're ignoring my suggestion that an AI should buy a vehicle on the chance it is useful, and then make the best possible of it even if it's not the very best choice
19:47:18  <nielsm> human players do that all the time
19:48:14  <nielsm> not buying it to learn the refit costs but buying it to use it to actually run the route
19:48:26  <nielsm> and learn the refit costs/etc along the way
19:48:47  <nielsm> (the purpose of buying that model is not to learn about it but to use it)
19:48:52  <Samu> hmm the usual problem is starting up, but I see what you mean
19:49:07  <nielsm> "this looks good enough"
19:49:56  <nielsm> "perfect" is the enemy of "good enough", or however you say
19:50:26  <Samu> was trying to make the best out of a budget of £100k
19:50:30  <Samu> loan
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19:53:39  <Simons_Mith> Eh, time for fud I think. Before I go, neilsm: "<nielsm> letting AIs cheat on their own volition is not acceptable and I will fight any PR that wants to allow that"
19:53:58  <Samu> it was when I discovered the refit issues. my ai at the moment is starting suboptimal with aircraft mail cargo
19:54:26  <Simons_Mith> But presumably if there was a checkbox /controlled by the player/ that said, 'Permit this AI to use cheats'.  that'.... merely ugly?
19:54:48  <nielsm> no, write a gamescript for it
19:55:24  <Simons_Mith> many gamescripts, then
19:55:52  <Eddi|zuHause> i feel like we're going in circles.
19:56:11  <Eddi|zuHause> and you're requesting things that are already possible, just not in the exact way you want it
19:56:33  <nielsm> I don't think it would be a difficult change to let multiple GS be loaded at once (except perhaps contention for storybook and goals?)
19:58:04  <Simons_Mith> I'm looking at writing this stuff myself, but thre's no point if it's too far at variance with the preferences of the key devs
19:58:35  <Simons_Mith> You've been helpful in that repsect
19:59:24  <Simons_Mith> GS extenstion is probably beyond my current skill tho
19:59:35  <Simons_Mith> As is correct typing
19:59:45  <nielsm> yes you're spelling my name wrong :(
19:59:47  <Simons_Mith> [cold hands]
20:00:05  <Simons_Mith> Sorry!
20:01:04  <Eddi|zuHause> man, my sense of time is totally broken today
20:01:38  <frosch123> nielsm: there are many things which are currently global, but would to be per-gs
20:01:50  <frosch123> like cargo-monitors, storybook, goals, ...
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20:06:58  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 updated pull request #7110: Add: more options for translators https://git.io/fhKba
20:10:50  <andythenorth> so is there a var for CC being used?
20:10:52  * andythenorth looks
20:14:34  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] frosch123 approved pull request #7110: Add: more options for translators https://git.io/fh6fS
20:15:59  <nielsm> hmm this is annoying, the first time the music loop is called, the client settings config is not loaded so _settings_client.music.playing is false by default so music never starts on title screen
20:16:15  <nielsm> is there a way to detect if config is actually fully loaded? >_>
20:16:51  <andythenorth> hmm, no documented var for vehicle colour
20:17:02  <andythenorth> 80+ o_O
20:17:28  <andythenorth> nope, no var
20:17:36  <frosch123> nielsm: there is a bool parameter to LoadFromConfig
20:17:45  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 merged pull request #7110: Add: more options for translators https://git.io/fhKba
20:17:53  <frosch123> andythenorth: var 43 iirc
20:17:54  * andythenorth trying to make custom liveries, selected by the group livery
20:18:12  <nielsm> frosch123 but that's not where I am, I'm inside MusicLoop()
20:18:28  <andythenorth> oh yes var 43 :)
20:18:40  <nielsm> between the calls to LoadFromConfig(true) and LoadFromConfig(false)
20:19:38  <andythenorth> so maybe this is the way to do liveries :)
20:19:51  <frosch123> nielsm:  maybe _window_system_initialized ?
20:20:00  <andythenorth> I can't find a single person who says more than 'no' to my ctrl-click counter idea :P
20:20:18  <TrueBrain> hell no
20:20:20  <TrueBrain> there you go
20:20:32  <andythenorth> so choosing the livery can set the gearing on the train :D
20:20:35  <andythenorth> makes sense, right?
20:20:42  <andythenorth> red faster than blue
20:20:43  <frosch123> andythenorth: try to find a solution that works for more people than just you
20:20:58  <andythenorth> frosch123: I don't know any other people :P
20:21:17  <andythenorth> I'm also all out of modifier keys :P
20:21:33  <TrueBrain> if things are red, it just means they are moving away from you. Blue means they are approaching (most likely rapidly)
20:21:36  <TrueBrain> not sure what you are on about :P
20:21:46  <andythenorth> I just want to click on a train and have it cycle through sprite options :P
20:21:49  <andythenorth> somehow
20:22:34  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc commented on pull request #7109: [OSX] Use high-precision scrolling properties for 2D scrolling https://git.io/fh6JY
20:22:58  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth commented on pull request #7109: [OSX] Use high-precision scrolling properties for 2D scrolling https://git.io/fh6JO
20:23:29  <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: there was once a question: "how fast do you need to go so a red traffic light appears green to you?"
20:24:27  <TrueBrain> simple, never; as by the time you reach speeds that would cause that, you created tons of other problems that most likely would mean the end of life as we know it :P
20:24:28  <andythenorth> hmm
20:24:43  <andythenorth> so if modifier-click is not going to happen
20:24:51  <andythenorth> how about a dropdown menu on every vehicle?
20:24:56  <andythenorth> I'll mockup
20:25:08  <TrueBrain> oh-oh
20:25:12  <glx> nielsm: you can make the loop wait for a signal maybe
20:28:27  <andythenorth> here we go, let's do this https://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/9258/vehicle_options.png
20:29:21  <andythenorth> dunno what's on the menu options
20:29:25  <andythenorth> all the important things I guess
20:29:35  <andythenorth> sprite, cb36 stuff etc
20:29:39  <glx> how long does it take for eints to detect an new english.txt ?
20:29:49  <andythenorth> still needs some kind of counter byte so it knows what sprite to use :P
20:29:57  <andythenorth> there are some user bits somewhere?
20:39:51  <peter1138> Well, that was silly. Turns out there was no fish after all.
20:40:06  <glx> only chips ?
20:40:08  <andythenorth> oh dear
20:40:36  * andythenorth found chicken nuggets
20:41:42  <peter1138> I went out and got some, heh.
20:41:54  <peter1138> There was some fishcakes but they're pretty horrible I find.
20:42:53  <peter1138> Thanks for the screenshots andythenorth.
20:43:36  <peter1138> And then RGB colours ;)
20:43:45  <Pikka> mmm, fish
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20:44:06  <andythenorth> pikka never sleeps
20:44:19  <peter1138> Oh well. At least we won't be bodging AIs tonight.
20:44:34  <andythenorth> we can bodge this instead? o_O https://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/9258/vehicle_options.png
20:45:01  <peter1138> Oh gods...
20:45:49  <peter1138> So anyway, the chips in the freezer, a portion size is 125g. However they are chunky chips.
20:45:56  <glx> per vehicle livery ?
20:46:01  <peter1138> So I measured out a portion, and it was... about 3 chips.
20:46:19  <peter1138> So I said screw that and filled half the baking tray instead.
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20:46:36  <Eddi|zuHause> these "portions" never seem to make sense
20:46:38  <andythenorth> per vehicle arbitrary settings
20:46:42  <peter1138> This is not good for calorie control, I might as well have got takeaway.
20:46:56  <andythenorth> add lettuce
20:47:03  <andythenorth> very filling, not much calorie
20:47:04  <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, they usually very small. As if intended to make everything look healthy.
20:47:05  <Samu> peter1138 did you find your helicopter service fix?
20:47:11  <peter1138> Samu, no.
20:47:38  <Samu> ok :| take a look at mine if you have time :o
20:47:45  <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, like popcorn. Who buys a small bag of popcorn, and then divvies it out into 7 tiny portions?
20:47:45  <andythenorth> I think those new dropdowns look very nice
20:47:52  <andythenorth> they will enhance the depot view a lot
20:47:58  <peter1138> We'd need a lot of popcorn this evening.
20:48:12  <andythenorth> I have two kinds
20:48:17  <andythenorth> salted, salt + sugar
20:48:46  <peter1138> I have "gourmet". It has chocolate on it.
20:48:56  <peter1138> Also I have cider.
20:49:15  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't know how it came to be, but "popcorn" usually means "sweet" over here
20:49:26  <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, have you ever measured out a "portion" of breakfast cereal?
20:49:37  <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: no
20:49:51  <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: it's always been "make this bowl look somewhat full"
20:49:59  <peter1138> Unless it's puffed wheat, you end up with a thin layer of dust on the bottom of the bowl.
20:50:09  <peter1138> (Except Weetabix)
20:50:23  <glx> it's for 20cl of milk anyway
20:50:42  <Eddi|zuHause> i've never cared for the "1 portion" thing on anything, ever...
20:50:49  <peter1138> But it's okay. These portions are all green in the RDA boxes!
20:50:53  <Samu> meanwhile, I'm gonna "fix" this https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/issues/6452
20:51:32  <peter1138> Hmm, NRT...
20:52:19  <Samu> anchorable settings
20:54:14  <Eddi|zuHause> weren't you busy with hiding railtypes?
20:54:39  <peter1138> Uhm, I was busy visiting the MIL in hospital.
20:54:44  <peter1138> And then trying to eat her food.
20:54:44  <andythenorth> ketchip with rice?
20:54:55  <peter1138> No.
20:55:01  * andythenorth tries it anyway
20:55:16  <andythenorth> sweet and sour sauce is basically ketchup
20:55:22  <peter1138> But okay, that's probably easier than fiddling with NRT right now.
20:55:43  <peter1138> Just approve group-livery already ;)
20:55:56  <peter1138> Erm, I mean review it and check it's all good.
20:55:57  <andythenorth> does eddi have approve rights?
20:56:15  <peter1138> I suspect you are too biased on this one.
20:56:32  <andythenorth> I am not approving it :P
20:56:40  <andythenorth> I have play-tested it, but I can't review
20:57:21  <andythenorth> https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/pull/7108
20:58:49  <Eddi|zuHause> why would i have approve rights?
21:00:37  <andythenorth> given that I do
21:00:41  <andythenorth> why wouldn't you?
21:03:08  <frosch123> glx: TrueBrain: looks like the eints-pull trigger is broken. or did we forgot to install it after gh move? the working copy is still on 19:45
21:03:19  *** sla_ro|master has quit IRC
21:04:10  <TrueBrain> frosch123: isnt it on a crontab?
21:04:25  <TrueBrain> didnt we settle on: just update it once a day?
21:05:08  <TrueBrain> ah, no, 15 * * * *
21:05:38  <Eddi|zuHause> so once an hour?
21:06:04  <Eddi|zuHause> but how would that result in 19:45?
21:06:12  <TrueBrain> magic
21:06:18  <TrueBrain> :P
21:06:22  <TrueBrain> nah, it commits on 19:45
21:06:27  <TrueBrain> so it does things with the git around that time too
21:06:39  <frosch123> ok, so glx missed by 2 minutes :p
21:06:45  <frosch123> let's see in 9
21:07:09  <TrueBrain> 'git log' confirms that hypothesis :)
21:07:36  <TrueBrain> (a hook is currently not possible to make this instant, as there is no way to get from the outside to in that vm)
21:10:02  <andythenorth> shall I make some more examples for group liveries? o_O
21:11:36  <andythenorth> I should finish drawing this eh :P http://www.railpictures.net/photo/685318/
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21:20:51  <frosch123> 1 outdated, 6 missing, sounds right :)
21:21:19  *** supermop_Home has quit IRC
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21:23:35  <glx> yup I can start to fix french
21:24:32  <andythenorth> so eh, vehicle IDs aren't in short supply...how about some kind of vehicle subtype choice via the buy menu? o_O
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21:31:33  <peter1138> How about it, eh?
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21:32:23  <peter1138> I mean, I'd like to.
21:33:19  <peter1138> Let me work on hiding railtypes.
21:33:27  <peter1138> That's probably a bit more reasonably on this shitty laptop.
21:33:42  * andythenorth tries to do a draw
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21:40:00  <peter1138> Alright, I think this patch is done.
21:40:25  * peter1138 ponders finding an old i5 laptop.
21:40:54  <peter1138> Lenovo X230, i5, 16GB...
21:42:10  <peter1138> Oh, 8GB, 320GB HDD... £170, not too bad.
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21:47:20  <andythenorth> peter1138: https://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/9259/very-groupy.png
21:47:22  <peter1138> Hmm, probably ought to disallow building of hidden railtypes too.
21:48:44  <andythenorth> dunno about how it all works
21:48:47  <andythenorth> I just drew something
21:49:42  <glx> "sprites complete: Yup"
21:50:08  <nielsm> peter1138: remember to watch out for display resolution/quality on laptops, I rather regret getting one with 1366x768 last time
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21:50:14  <andythenorth> ha ha project management stuff glx
21:50:21  <nielsm> (otoh anything better would have been a massive increase in price)
21:50:33  <peter1138> Yeah, I miss my (even older) laptop's 1400x1050 display.
21:50:39  <peter1138> That's a P4...
21:52:01  <nielsm> (also where are the laptop and desktop OLED computer displays, has it become physically impossible to manufacture OLED displays in sizes greater than 10 and smaller than 55 inches?)
21:52:45  <peter1138> Yeah, this X230 is that shitty 1366x768 :(
21:53:47  <peter1138> This one is 1440x900.
21:54:03  <glx> a little better
21:54:07  <Eddi|zuHause> <peter1138> Hmm, probably ought to disallow building of hidden railtypes too.  <-- also hide them from the AI
21:55:12  <nielsm> does hidden railtype imply it doesn't actually exist? or just that it isn't buildable as-is for some reason, but may appear for special reasons?
21:55:42  <peter1138> It's something to do with compatible/powered railtypes.
21:55:45  <Eddi|zuHause> nielsm: mostly for providing hybrid vehicles
21:56:02  <Eddi|zuHause> like combined electric and 3rd rail
21:56:12  <peter1138> Okay, maybe this is not quite so easy ;(
21:56:21  <Eddi|zuHause> (although for those it might be useful to not hide it)
21:56:21  <peter1138> I'm not sure where it needs to be available and not.
21:56:57  <peter1138> andythenorth, nice work, is there a PR? ;)
21:57:09  <andythenorth> nearly
21:57:55  <peter1138> Sprites Complete: Yup
21:59:23  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Tahvohck opened issue #7112: Commit fef8b83 broke GSTown.SetGrowthRate https://git.io/fh6LW
21:59:30  <andythenorth> they don't all say 'yup' :(
21:59:49  <andythenorth> mumble mumble
21:59:55  <andythenorth> trucks that can go on mine roads
22:00:13  <andythenorth> without needing a special combined roadtype in build menu
22:05:31  <peter1138> Heh, GetBestRailtype falls back to RAILTYPE_RAIL, even if it's not available ;(
22:06:43  <peter1138> Hmm, might as well finish off this cider.
22:20:12  <Samu> i dont know how to iterate on visual studio
22:20:20  <Samu> i know how in squirrel
22:20:25  <glx> iterate what ?
22:20:28  <Samu> c++
22:20:53  <glx> ah you need an iterator and a for loop
22:21:21  <Samu> erase(it) does the erase, but then the loop becomes broken
22:21:26  <Samu> asserts
22:21:41  <glx> yes iterators don't like that
22:21:47  <nielsm> removing items from a collection you're iterating is recipe for trouble
22:22:23  <Samu> how would I erase the 'it', then
22:22:32  <nielsm> depends on what you're doing
22:22:52  <Samu> it's a list of settings
22:22:58  <Samu> i wanna remove an item from the list
22:23:05  <glx> just one ?
22:23:06  <nielsm> and how long the collection is and how much of it you expect to remove
22:23:13  <Samu> no, not just one
22:23:24  <Samu> could be multiple, or none, or 1
22:24:21  <glx> what's the container ?
22:24:52  <nielsm> std::remove_if() in <algorithm> might be the choice to go for
22:25:32  <nielsm> or well maybe not
22:25:46  <glx> need more info :)
22:26:08  <Samu> yeah, i'm unfamiliar with that lingo  :(
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22:27:31  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] J0anJosep opened pull request #7113: Codechange: Use track functions. https://git.io/fh6tP
22:28:46  <LordAro> Samu: start by googling what look like keywords
22:28:53  <LordAro> then read what comes up
22:29:03  <LordAro> if we're lucky, you might learn something
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22:30:28  <Samu> +		settings	{ size=1 }	std::map<char const *,int,StringCompare,std::allocator<std::pair<char const * const,int> > >
22:30:41  <Samu> not sure what I'm copying
22:31:13  <Samu> it has size=1, if I wanna erase it, it becomes size=0, but the iterator is then broken :|
22:31:15  <andythenorth> so this vehicle buy menu group
22:31:26  <andythenorth> how does it work? :P
22:31:38  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on issue #7112: Commit fef8b83 broke GSTown.SetGrowthRate https://git.io/fh6tQ
22:31:50  <LordAro> Samu: don't blindly copy
22:31:52  <LordAro> read
22:31:53  <andythenorth> it's 100% independent vehicles, except for one prop creating a group on number or keyword?
22:32:06  <LordAro> cppreference.com has search functionality
22:32:16  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: each NewGRF vehicle sets a property which should be the "Master" vehicle, and group them if more than one
22:32:29  <andythenorth> yup
22:32:31  <andythenorth> order control?
22:32:32  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: some magic default value meaning "no master"
22:32:33  <andythenorth> group name?
22:32:53  <Eddi|zuHause> no group name?
22:33:01  <andythenorth> can't see why one is needed
22:33:02  <Eddi|zuHause> just the master vehicle
22:33:08  <andythenorth> prop for forcing simultaneous intro dates?
22:33:25  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
22:33:31  <Eddi|zuHause> independent from group
22:33:36  <TrueBrain> yippie, logs on k8s are now also stored for a bit longer; so I can at least trace issues if they happen :)
22:33:42  <Eddi|zuHause> so you can make wagons appear at the same time without grouping
22:33:53  <TrueBrain> that was totally not simple in k8s world :(
22:34:04  <TrueBrain> people suggest using an ELK .. which costs ~1GB of RAM
22:34:06  <TrueBrain> we only have 4 ..
22:34:08  <glx> TrueBrain: but it's easier to ignore issues if there's no logs
22:34:09  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: so date is unrelated?
22:34:10  <TrueBrain> 25% for logging sounds ....
22:34:20  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: yes
22:34:27  <andythenorth> force-date is a new prop, totally independent of groups
22:34:28  <TrueBrain> glx: true .. but if there is a security incident, I would like to crawl logs :)
22:34:38  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: e.g. making new liveries available at other dates
22:34:39  <glx> pff sysadmins
22:34:41  <andythenorth> order in group is determined by order in buy menu
22:34:51  <TrueBrain> :D
22:35:02  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: but hide prototype offer for grouped vehicles
22:35:27  <andythenorth> my assumption is that groups contain highly similar vehicles
22:35:29  <peter1138> Ok but castello blue cheese.
22:35:39  <andythenorth> but one *could* create a group like 'buses' or whatever :P
22:35:51  <andythenorth> people create those weird separator newgrfs :P
22:36:59  <peter1138> They do, but we ignore them.
22:37:29  <peter1138> They're the sort of people who think that reimplementing TCP using UDP is a good idea.
22:38:07  <Samu> https://en.cppreference.com/w/cpp/container/map/erase
22:38:26  <Samu> I have no idea how to interpret what I'm reading
22:39:24  <peter1138> Which bit?
22:39:50  <Samu> clear() is not the correct one
22:40:15  <Samu> erase(it) would be correct, but can't use inside a for loop :|
22:40:41  <nielsm> std::map::erase() returns a new iterator at the position you removed from
22:40:44  <nielsm> since we're using C++11 now
22:41:14  <nielsm> so maybe it=map.erase(it); it enough
22:41:15  <peter1138> Yeah, looks like you can do it = erase(it); but you probably need to make sure it is not incremented in the loop?
22:41:22  <andythenorth> ok so that's buy menu groups all done then
22:41:28  <andythenorth> use the yellow +/- things?
22:41:36  <nielsm> yes there is even an example at the end of the page :)
22:41:50  <peter1138> Ah yes.
22:42:14  <peter1138> That does simplify things a lot, returning a new iterator.
22:43:01  <andythenorth> buy menu groups for 2.0
22:43:30  <peter1138> Oh :(
22:43:38  <peter1138> I'm compiling, but I can't remember what.
22:44:13  <peter1138> Hmm, more cheese?
22:44:32  <andythenorth> usually
22:44:36  <peter1138> Gotta say, blue cheese on a fairly sweet ryvita is not quite right :/
22:44:52  <peter1138> Maybe I should open the MIL's crackers.
22:45:30  <Samu> Expression: cannot increment end map/set iterator
22:45:37  <Samu> i fail at this
22:46:15  <LordAro> Samu: we're not going to give you answers for every single compile error you get
22:46:18  <LordAro> work it out yourself
22:46:36  <Samu> ok
22:46:51  <nielsm> it sounds like you should research how C++ has defined the concept of iterators
22:46:56  <peter1138> Think about what an end map/set itaerator is.
22:47:05  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN approved pull request #7113: Codechange: Use track functions. https://git.io/fh6qK
22:47:07  <nielsm> and how you use them in general and in specific for the various standard containers
22:47:11  <andythenorth> we need dedicated samu channel
22:48:21  <Samu> gonna try mimic the example
22:49:39  <Samu> ah, i think i see, it's the for line, doesn't have it++ there
22:49:56  <Samu> it++ is in the else
22:50:22  <peter1138> I mentioned that exact thing, approximately 8 minutes ago.
22:50:50  <LordAro> Samu: like i said, don't just (mis)copy, read it
22:50:56  <LordAro> and try to understand what you're reading
22:51:16  <glx> for (init; test; next)
22:52:21  <Samu> yep, it works now, thx all
22:52:48  <peter1138> Balls, out of cider :(
22:53:08  <andythenorth> how do we have 2 pages of PRs open :(
22:53:10  <LordAro> peter1138: i suggest whisky
22:53:16  <LordAro> andythenorth: because you've been lazy!
22:53:21  <peter1138> Totally out of alcohol now.
22:53:22  <glx> but I guess your code was "if (need_remove) remove else it++" and that's clearly wrong
22:53:39  <peter1138> This was a bottle I brought with me, anything else in this house is... removed due to... reasons.
22:53:46  <andythenorth> @calc 14/39
22:53:46  <DorpsGek> andythenorth: 0.358974358974
22:54:03  <andythenorth> more than 1/3 of OpenTTD contributions are from samu
22:54:16  <glx> usually you don't want to increment inside the loop, unless you exactly know what you do
22:54:33  <glx> especially with iterators
22:55:11  <andythenorth> just increment past the close point
22:55:14  <andythenorth> what could go wrong?
22:55:15  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN merged pull request #7113: Codechange: Use track functions. https://git.io/fh6tP
22:56:59  <peter1138> Well, you'd get an error saying something about "Expression: cannot increment end map/set iterator"...
22:57:43  <andythenorth> I once employed someone who wrote a loop that needed to be closed with a break
22:58:03  <glx> we call it infinite loop
22:58:06  <andythenorth> and did something like "if i == 100; break;"
22:58:20  <andythenorth> that hung a server up nicely
22:58:35  <glx> oups
22:58:38  <andythenorth> oops
22:58:51  <andythenorth> not as fun as the day we learnt about locking sql tables for specific writes
22:59:08  <andythenorth> to avoid concurrent access when you really don't want it
22:59:12  <glx> without unlocking after ?
22:59:18  <andythenorth> like...giving away the one prize in a prize draw
22:59:25  <andythenorth> instead of the 7 prizes
22:59:32  <andythenorth> that you actually have to give away
22:59:34  <andythenorth> if you don't lock
22:59:42  <peter1138> hehe
23:00:15  <peter1138> nielsm, is that enough screenshots in 7108 now? ;)
23:00:17  * andythenorth wonders if PRs need stricter criteria 
23:00:54  <peter1138> What do you mean?
23:01:23  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth commented on pull request #7108: Feature: Group liveries, and livery window usability enhancements. https://git.io/fh6m3
23:01:33  <andythenorth> like a quota or something :P
23:01:52  <andythenorth> proof that you can program
23:01:54  <andythenorth> dunno
23:02:09  <LordAro> PRs would still end up getting opened
23:02:26  <LordAro> unless you're planning on blocking people, which seems ultimately pointless
23:02:36  <andythenorth> the problem I have is that I closed some, which didn't have viability
23:02:40  <andythenorth> and now they're just back, split up
23:02:47  <andythenorth> so now we have more PRs, not fewer
23:03:08  <andythenorth> and they're still going nowhere
23:03:48  <andythenorth> oof, bedtime :)
23:03:52  <LordAro> i don't think they're back as such
23:04:15  <LordAro> just that the large one has been split up into multiple, as was asked
23:05:34  <andythenorth> ok
23:06:04  * andythenorth should test the mac thing
23:06:05  <andythenorth> also bed
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23:06:09  <supermop_Home_> buy menu groups?
23:11:54  <peter1138> Some feature that was pondered a few months ago, but has not seen any coding yet.
23:13:22  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] J0anJosep opened pull request #7114: NPF bails out when source tile is also a destination tile https://git.io/fh6mK
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23:30:16  <Samu> success!
23:30:50  <Samu> resets non locked settings now
23:31:07  <Samu> instead of just plain out disabling the reset button
23:32:22  <peter1138> Well
23:34:41  <nielsm> nice city https://0x0.st/sCDm.jpg
23:38:59  <peter1138> Why does my game run at 1.02x consistently?
23:39:13  <Samu> hmm, i guess the reset button could be disabled if all settings are locked, what do you think?
23:39:19  <peter1138> I thought it was just an oddity because I was running in a Hyper-V VM and displaying via VNC.
23:39:25  <peter1138> But this laptop also runs at 1.02x
23:39:49  <nielsm> the timing calculation is slightly broken in possibly every video driver
23:40:02  <nielsm> the win32 one tends to run at 0.98x
23:40:13  <peter1138> I remember having a patch to use the std hrtimer.
23:40:14  <nielsm> SDL one tends to run at 1.02x
23:40:19  <nielsm> yes :)
23:40:24  <Samu> I have a dilema: should reset button also reset invisible settings
23:40:28  <peter1138> Hmm, I wonder where that went.
23:40:29  <Samu> what to do?
23:40:35  <nielsm> or otherwise do something to make up the difference
23:40:57  <peter1138> I have a patch that should allow catch-up, but when it runs at 1.02x that doesn't achieve much.
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23:44:39  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on issue #7090: Query box sets value to hidden parameters https://git.io/fh6YX
23:44:56  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on issue #7091: Dropdown menu can set value to a parameter of a different AI https://git.io/fh6YM
23:45:19  <glx> yes same message but it's to double link :)
23:47:13  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nikolas updated pull request #7086: Change #6173: Update SDL driver to use SDL 2.0 https://git.io/fhamZ
23:47:52  <Samu> what to expect from a button that says "Reset"
23:48:26  <Samu> https://imgur.com/Uu785pj
23:48:44  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on pull request #7092: Fix #7091: Close dropdown menu windows after rebuilding AI/GS settings https://git.io/fh6Yd
23:49:09  <peter1138> 1.00x using the high resolution clock.
23:49:09  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on pull request #7093: Fix #7090: Close Query String window after rebuilding AI/GS settings https://git.io/fh6YA
23:49:21  <peter1138> Well, 1.00x - 1.01x
23:49:43  <nielsm> peter1138 that would be better yes :)
23:49:52  <nielsm> and then using the same algo for timing on all platforms
23:50:04  <nielsm> (maybe splitting it out to a class of its own)
23:50:46  <glx> fixing #7090 and #7091 will require a global look at AI windows like I did with https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/pull/7106
23:52:03  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nikolas commented on pull request #7086: Change #6173: Update SDL driver to use SDL 2.0 https://git.io/fh6Of
23:52:33  <Samu> don't over-close it
23:52:47  <peter1138> Back to 1.02x when I use only milliseconds.
23:52:53  <glx> hey they are not closed Samu
23:52:59  <peter1138> I guess it needs sub-millisecond accuracy.
23:53:37  <Samu> part of my ai gui rework was making it not close windows unless it's really necessary
23:53:41  <glx> but I think it will be better to fix all problems at the same time
23:54:03  <Samu> it currently closes too much
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23:54:40  <Samu> (it was also not closing in situations it would crash, of course)
23:54:53  <glx> well for now when I click on a different line, the settings are still showing the previous selected line
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23:56:09  <nnyby> anyone who is looking for something to test, try out this branch and i'd love some feedback >_< https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/pull/7086
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23:56:18  <glx> most of the time if you change selected line you should close the windows, because there's no way to pass it the new data
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23:57:17  <Samu> if the script is still the same, it's still gonna change the correct parameter
23:57:33  <glx> well there is a way but it's not done actually
23:57:48  <Samu> in this situation, i wouldn't close
23:58:23  <glx> a possible option would be to pass the new slot in InvalidData
23:58:31  <LordAro> many of the issues arise because the windows refer to a particular slot in the list, rather than an actual newgrf/script config
23:58:53  <LordAro> that's how i was going to go about solving the ai textfile issue, anyway
23:59:04  <glx> yes but at least it's a number so it's possible to give it the new slot
23:59:21  <LordAro> closing all textfile windows because a slot gets changed seems a bit.. nuclear
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