Log for #openttd on 17th February 2019:
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00:00:16  <Samu> how come I don't get conflicts now?
00:00:22  <Samu> something wrong happened...
00:00:48  <glx> luck happened :)
00:01:39  <glx> but you should be able to move some stuff into the switch
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00:02:43  <glx> more likely the conflict would be present if you had not removed the commit ;)
00:03:17  <glx> anyway even without conflict compilation will fail
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00:05:45  <Samu> include_spectator no longer exists?
00:05:57  <glx> yes not needed
00:06:13  <m3henry> glx: Oh that one surprised me. I was expecting iter to be an iterator, not an offset xD
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00:09:21  <glx> you can move the #ifdef after the if (!_networking) line and insert your code there
00:09:57  <glx> but don't forget to break at the end
00:10:38  <Samu>  * @param include_spectator If true, a spectator option is included in the list.
00:10:43  <Samu> you left the comment
00:10:49  <glx> oups
00:11:26  <glx> and I'm the first to notice that in peter1138's PR
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00:13:02  <peter1138> Er...
00:13:41  <peter1138> That just means my review was bad :/
00:14:32  <glx> happens
00:15:52  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] M3Henry updated pull request #7165: [core] Implement SmallVector using std::vector
00:16:39  <peter1138> This is bad, I'm considering using a file-scope static variable to remember the building flags used when building a house :/
00:17:18  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 opened pull request #7241: Fix 1585eb1a3: forgot a comment
00:20:46  <glx> like a local global variable ?
00:20:53  <glx> that doesn't sound good
00:21:19  <glx> but it's done like that in other places
00:23:27  <Samu> something's quite not right
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00:23:45  <Samu> even when nothing is highlighted, it still opens the global goals window or global story book window
00:24:11  <glx> it defaults to -1 yes
00:24:37  <glx> unless you are a company, it then defaults to the company
00:25:00  <Samu> but the black rectangle
00:25:05  <Samu> is not selecting it
00:25:35  <glx> same happens in network games
00:25:47  <glx> still it will open client list
00:28:17  <glx> hmm btw selection was probably already wrong for network games
00:30:19  <Samu> PopupMainToolbMenu(w, widget, list, _local_company == COMPANY_SPECTATOR ? widget == WID_TN_COMPANIES ? CTMN_CLIENT_LIST : CTMN_SPECTATOR : (int)_local_company);
00:30:21  <Samu> gonna try
00:31:33  <glx> result will be the same CTMN_SPECTATOR is -4 :)
00:32:04  <Samu> it works
00:33:37  <Samu> CTMN_SPECTATOR is being used for Global Story Book and Global Goals
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00:35:29  <glx> oh right, something to add to the comment fix then
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00:36:41  <Samu> for my patch, there is no client list in single player, nothing is open anyway, lucky me
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00:37:36  <Samu> CTMN_CLIENT_LIST is "selected" though
00:37:44  <Samu> not visible
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00:43:38  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick updated pull request #7158: Add: Client setting gui.start_spectator
00:46:08  <snail_UES_> what should we set as a steamer’s power in our trainsets?
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00:46:14  <drac_boy> hi there
00:46:22  <snail_UES_> “continuous” power or power at drawbar?
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00:47:41  * drac_boy wouldn't be sure sorry
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00:49:14  <Samu> I think I have the endif in the wrong plac
00:49:16  <Samu> e
00:49:23  <glx> why did you add the _networking test ?
00:50:18  <glx> there's already !_networking test above it
00:50:52  <Samu> i dont know
00:51:00  <Samu> ifdef network confuses the heck of it
00:51:57  <glx> and yes #endif is wrong with your change
00:52:05  <glx> but it's a useless change
00:54:40  <Samu> ah. the break prevents the second part of the code from happening
00:54:42  <Samu> i see
00:56:26  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 updated pull request #7241: Fix 1585eb1a3: forgot a comment
00:57:11  <Pikka> snail_UES_, probably not.
00:57:15  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick updated pull request #7158: Add: Client setting gui.start_spectator
00:57:39  <snail_UES_> Pikka: what do you mean?
00:57:56  <Pikka> probably not "continuous power" or power at drawbar. :)
00:59:01  <glx> still wrong Samu, the break must be afte #endif
00:59:26  <Pikka> probably whatever value gives a pleasing gameplay effect and slots it into whatever use you're aiming for
00:59:35  <Samu> it is after
01:00:45  <snail_UES_> sure, but that’s more about fine tuning
01:00:53  <snail_UES_> we should have a realistic base to start from
01:00:54  <glx> just in case, because _networking is false if ENABLE_NETWORK is not defined but it still safer to prevent fall through the next case
01:01:00  <glx> no you moved it
01:02:17  <Samu> the break was before
01:02:18  <Pikka> sure, but I'm not sure either of those values make sense as TTD "power", and those stats are often hard to find for steam engines anyway. So skip the research and just make it up, imo ;)
01:02:38  <glx> the diff says it was not
01:02:41  <Samu> erm... confused
01:04:20  <snail_UES_> yeah… well, you can estimate them by using boiler pressure, grate area, superheater surface...
01:04:27  <drac_boy> pikka not exactly that hard tho .. theres a well-reused formula on the forum for to determine a good tractive for steam :)
01:04:40  <snail_UES_> tractive effort is easier
01:05:05  <snail_UES_> there is a formula involving cylinder dimensions, boiler pressure, and driving wheel diameter
01:05:11  <snail_UES_> power is trickier to estimate
01:05:12  <Samu> so that means my company_gui.cpp is also wrong?
01:06:34  <drac_boy> mind you in usa they had this ratio system where if it added up to or close to 4.0 (or was it quoted at 3.0 .. ughh I'll have to find a source to recheck) it was balanced .. but well below or above that it became more difficult (either very slippery or too much boiler output than what can be used)
01:06:57  <Samu> I don't understand this whole ENABLE_NETWORK thing, i dont even know how to test it
01:07:42  <Samu> if there is no ENABLE_NETWORK
01:07:49  <Samu> _networking doesn't exist?
01:07:51  <drac_boy> even a reboilered 4-4-2 once (it was on the IC system) had a very low number to the point that it was often shunt into the rear of the yard and left to rot as very few dispatchers ever wanted to put it on rooster
01:08:01  <Samu> the variable
01:08:08  <glx> _networking is defined to 0 in this case
01:08:09  <drac_boy> it was just way too slippery even for a short passenger train
01:08:17  <Samu> ah
01:08:22  <glx> and your company_gui.cpp is correct
01:08:54  <snail_UES_> yep, but again, that’s tractive effort
01:09:24  <snail_UES_> power is proportional to the capacity of generating steam quickly and sending it to the cylinders without too much loss
01:09:27  <glx> you can mentally check the #ifdef #endif bloc like a comment block
01:09:46  <drac_boy> snail..if the boiler had a lower pressure it would had still been the same locomotive tho :)
01:09:53  <snail_UES_> problem is, you get data for continuous power for certain engines, power at drawbar for others (at different speeds)
01:09:56  <glx> #ifdef being /* and #endif is */
01:10:17  <snail_UES_> yes, same locomotive, but weaker
01:11:11  <drac_boy> come to think about it I do have two grfs that I've unofficially modified because the author for some reason left some things broken by default (eg a railcar that barely could make 30kph with one wagon which didn't compare to the real life one) .. but what do I know :)
01:12:00  <glx> checking with the compiler implies to edit the project files, and you don't wan't to do that :)
01:12:10  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick updated pull request #7158: Add: Client setting gui.start_spectator
01:12:50  <snail_UES_> if you’re referring to my set :p that’s because that railcar was almost always used by itself
01:13:26  <drac_boy> I was talking about australia and europe but :P
01:13:38  <drac_boy> which of whats the trainset you're working on?
01:13:57  <snail_UES_> haha, well there is a railcar in the NG French set that kind of fits your description
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01:14:29  <snail_UES_> designed in the twenties, so one of the very first attempts at building a feasible diesel engine (on narrow gauge)
01:14:56  <drac_boy> oh are you the Snail with an old fiat car as forum avatar?
01:14:58  <snail_UES_> its power follows the real-life model, so it will reach full speed if it travels alone
01:15:01  <snail_UES_> haha yes
01:15:18  <snail_UES_> the “snail” nick here was already taken…
01:15:23  <drac_boy> didn't think that was you till now .. I've looked over that thread twice anyway :)
01:15:26  <snail_UES_> so I added my location :D
01:16:14  <drac_boy> and btw although I don't know of any grf of this yet I do know a bit about the 'family' of railcars in australia tho (doesn't help I have one semi-technical book on one of them here too heh)
01:17:22  <drac_boy> various back n forth between oversea and homemade solutions .. not surprisingly the budd railcar was a bit less than impressive but still worked service for a while nevertheless .. and of course the well proven (repowering logics aside) Comet sets
01:18:19  <drac_boy> nothing too odd about actually seeing an old road-based railcar with one mini coach trailer standing (and being dwarfed) next to an australia xpt trainset heh :)
01:18:50  <drac_boy> (talk about stopping a highspeed train to transfer a few passengers from a slowpokey railcar)
01:19:32  <drac_boy> snail anyway don't mind me ;)
01:22:30  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick updated pull request #7084: Change: AI/GS Config GUI overhaul
01:23:28  <drac_boy> snail mind if I ask roughly how many locomotives there are in that grf now?
01:24:02  <snail_UES_> in the NG set?
01:24:07  <drac_boy> yeah
01:24:46  <snail_UES_> about 30 locomotives (among steam, diesel and electric)
01:25:10  <snail_UES_> and about as many railcars, DMUs, and EMUs
01:25:39  <drac_boy> ah ok..sounds like I'll probably want to try it eventually (unless something else in the grf causes no-load error) .. but thats for another topic :)
01:25:45  <snail_UES_> but there is also a parameter to reduce all that crap to 10 locos and like 6 railcars :D
01:26:34  <snail_UES_> I’m working on the standard gauge now, still in planning phase
01:32:37  <drac_boy> standard? hope that included the french 131R (and maybe the army counterpart of it although I still dunno how much french people liked them tho) :)
01:33:18  <drac_boy> a little iffy that the army version was weaker but was the most utilized one of both post-war nevertheless .. oh well such is history
01:34:57  * drac_boy would also take the original tgv too :P
01:34:59  <drac_boy> hehe
01:37:21  <snail_UES_> you mean the 141R?
01:37:59  <drac_boy> oh didn't noticed I hit wrong numkey .. yes the 141 :)
01:37:59  <snail_UES_> one of the most widely steamers used in the country… and american built :p
01:38:14  * drac_boy always wondered about the french system of counting per axle instead of per tires
01:42:18  <drac_boy> snail but anyway don't forget to throw in the 6700/6800 (it can be a single loco grfwise tho) .. kinda a bit of universal non-electric loco later on
01:42:27  <drac_boy> ;)
01:49:03  <Samu>
01:51:06  <Samu> no crashes so far
01:51:17  <Samu> have been testing for hours
01:51:42  <Samu> sahred orders help
01:52:18  <Samu> or else I'd be running out of orders by now
01:53:27  <Samu> i just hope i dont run out of stations
01:54:52  <Samu> ah, it won't run out of stations any time soon
01:54:54  <snail_UES_> you mean the diesel BB6700?
01:55:06  <Samu> about 230 stations per ai
01:55:11  <snail_UES_> that will be in… but these days I’m too busy planning steamers :p
01:58:10  <Samu> testing autosaves
01:58:17  <Samu> let's see if i run out of save time
02:02:04  <Samu> cool
02:02:10  <Samu> still saved
02:05:19  <drac_boy> anyway snail have fun drinking more french wines ... I'm going off sorry :P
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02:15:45  <nnyby> is the cursor style in openttd configurable? I'm sort of used to OpenGFX's nice little yellow cursor.. but i'd like to use it with the original graphiics set. this big gray error is not as nice.
02:15:59  <nnyby> s/error/arrow
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04:00:44  <Eddi|zuHause> you can make a grf which just contains the arrow sprites, and use that in [newgrf-static]
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05:51:25  <peter1138> snail_UES_, not drawbar power. OpenTTD already does the calculation for power varying by speed.
05:51:55  <snail_UES_> peter1138: so ideally what should I provide? continuous power?
05:57:31  <peter1138> Well. I dunno :)
06:09:57  <snail_UES_> anyway… looks like (boiler pressure * grate area) and superheating surface give me an R-squared of >90% on about 50 observations I collected
06:10:14  <snail_UES_> so I’m going to estimate power using those things :)
06:12:50  <peter1138> Estimate and tweak is probably bset.
06:12:51  <peter1138> *best
06:36:04  <Eddi|zuHause> for steam engines i used a calculation i found in some old forum post by MB
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07:21:02  <andythenorth> moin
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07:24:59  <peter1138> When you realise you can rewrite bits to be more efficient...
07:25:09  <peter1138> First calculate the station catchment tiles.
07:25:21  <peter1138> Then Find industries and check if they are in the catchment.
07:25:29  <peter1138> Or.
07:26:08  <peter1138> Calculate station catchment tiles, and during this if you see an industry tile, you already know it's within the catchment. no need to loop all over again.
07:26:29  <andythenorth> happy days
07:27:08  <peter1138> Sounds like micro-optimization, I suppose.
07:27:22  <peter1138> Should end up making the code clearer, I hope.
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07:36:43  <andythenorth> I need a better idea for port-type industries
07:36:59  <andythenorth> train stations are hard for them
07:37:28  <andythenorth> I need to add another 8-tile station to that port, for dropoff
07:38:52  <andythenorth> nowhere to put it, unless I bulldoze sea :P
07:43:58  <peter1138> andythenorth...
07:44:04  <peter1138> Remind me, what is a port-type industry?
07:45:00  <peter1138> Isn't a port basically ... station infrastructure, not an industry?
07:45:30  <peter1138> It has storage, I suppose.
07:46:10  <andythenorth> it's just a kind of port
07:46:26  <andythenorth> the main thing is that it builds on the coast
07:46:36  <andythenorth> with water round 3 sides, approximately
07:46:45  <andythenorth> so it's limited for stations
07:46:53  <peter1138> You've missed my point :)
07:47:27  <andythenorth> stations that accept / produce cargo? o_O
07:47:31  <andythenorth> directly?
07:47:38  <peter1138> Why though?
07:48:30  <peter1138> Why does a port accept/produce cargo? Is it a manufacturing plant?
07:48:37  <peter1138> I suppose you could say fish->food or something.
07:48:49  <andythenorth> well there is fish -> food
07:48:58  <andythenorth> but mostly they're just a gameplay short cut
07:49:34  <andythenorth> some cargos need a source or destination that's totally at odds with RL
07:49:56  <peter1138> Can you have an industry that accepts and produces the same stuff?
07:50:17  <andythenorth> probably works technically yes
07:50:26  <andythenorth> cargo prod cb can definitely do that
07:50:28  <peter1138> And then use it as a "hub", between different companies.
07:50:39  <peter1138> one company feeds it materials from the sea
07:50:49  <peter1138> another transports that inland...
07:51:03  <andythenorth> inter-company transfers
07:51:05  <peter1138> Effectively the industry is just storage.
07:51:18  <andythenorth> warehousing :P
07:51:19  <peter1138> Except with ratings
07:51:20  <peter1138> Yeah
07:51:21  <peter1138> Hmm!
07:52:22  <andythenorth> can nerf ratings
07:52:24  <andythenorth> in newgrf
07:52:35  <peter1138> o
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08:12:47  <Wolf01> o/
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08:46:22  <peter1138> Hmm, now I see I possibly do too much :/
08:46:27  <peter1138> I think, bike time.
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08:48:32  <Gabda> hi
08:49:33  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN commented on pull request #7235: New non-rectangular sparse station catchment area
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08:54:05  <Gabda> wow, there are draft PRs now
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09:02:17  <peter1138> Yup.
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09:38:56  <Gabda> peter1138: finding stations (or other objects) around tiles might be possible within O(log(#stations)) with a k-d tree structure
09:39:34  <Gabda> the main problem I found with these k-d trees that they are hard to balance, and might be easier to rebuild on station add/remove
09:41:55  <Gabda> I checked the white paper Idpl linked to my PR, and this was a data structure that might match the needs in the game
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10:05:18  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] M3Henry updated pull request #7165: [core] Implement SmallVector using std::vector
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11:07:07  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] J0anJosep commented on pull request #7238: Codechange: Remove assert when trying to intersect two tile areas and…
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11:16:51  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] J0anJosep commented on pull request #7220: Change: Increase maximum number of orders from 64000 to ~16.7m.
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12:53:35  <Smokebuddie> Good afternoon everybody
12:53:53  <J0anJosep> Hi
12:54:13  <Smokebuddie> I have a issue. When i set up a server, nobody finds my game?
12:54:29  <Smokebuddie> i set the portforwarding correct
12:54:37  <Smokebuddie> and its advertised
12:55:15  <nielsm> what's your ip address?
12:55:48  <Smokebuddie> ipv4 yes?
12:55:52  <nielsm> yes
12:56:21  <pnda> @Smokebuddie, my port forwarding is this: TCP/UDP on port 3979-3980/3979-3980
12:56:30  <Smokebuddie>
12:56:47  <Smokebuddie> 3978 & 3979 it says on the site
12:56:56  <pnda> 3979 and 3980 works for me
12:57:06  <Smokebuddie> gone try that setting on my router just a sec
12:57:25  <nielsm> yep, I can't connect
12:57:51  <nielsm> you've definitely made a mistake in your port forwarding
12:58:26  <pnda> Or maybe you've set the Protocoll wrong, I remember there being options for HTTP etc.
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12:59:19  <Smokebuddie> This is an example of port forwarding; in this case, UDP and TCP connections to port 3979 will need to be forwarded.
12:59:28  <Smokebuddie> this is from the OpenTTD wiki
12:59:44  <Smokebuddie> Make sure you've instructed the router to send the game data to the correct computer. If you want your server to be visible on the public server list (recommended), you will also need to forward UDP connections to port 3978.
12:59:48  <Smokebuddie> this too
12:59:55  <Smokebuddie> so i set my router
13:00:20  <Smokebuddie> 3979 TCP&UDP  3978 UDP
13:00:42  <pnda> my UDP is 3979 aswell, not 3978
13:02:10  <Smokebuddie> i used to be able to host but its just the last few weeks i can only join my friends. not the other way arround
13:02:47  <Smokebuddie> i've tried allot
13:03:13  <Smokebuddie> that's how i now end up here. in hope someone maybe knows what is blocking it
13:04:30  <Smokebuddie> @nielsm did you try to join?
13:04:37  <Smokebuddie> game name is Smokey
13:04:52  <nielsm>
13:05:01  <nielsm> is what I get when I try to add the server
13:05:12  <Smokebuddie> hmm
13:05:33  <nielsm> it can't reach on UDP port 3979 so it can't get game information
13:05:36  <nielsm> so it won't join
13:05:37  <Smokebuddie> its like i'm not sending any signal
13:06:00  <pnda> @Smokebuddie, try switching the UDP Port to 3979-3980
13:06:22  <Eddi|zuHause> what's your PC's internal ip? and have you set that in the router for port forwarding?
13:06:30  <Smokebuddie> @pnda i did it when you spoke of it
13:07:27  <Smokebuddie> so now i have 3979/3979 TCP&UDP, 3978/3978 UDP , 3979/3980 TCP&UDP
13:08:29  <planetmaker> you can check connections easily. If everything is setup correctly, it will show up in short time (1 minute or so) in
13:08:41  <Smokebuddie> @Eddi yes
13:08:54  <planetmaker> Under windows its own firewall is often the culprit after you setup the port forwarding correctly on your router
13:10:16  <planetmaker> openttd will tell in console that it fails to advertize, if you start it from console and start an MP session
13:11:17  <Smokebuddie> i tried removing OpenTTD from the firewall then set the ports , start the game, start a server, accepted the firewall message to give permission. still offline to my friend....
13:11:34  <Smokebuddie> how do i start it from console?
13:11:50  <planetmaker> not a good advice... yet often when I have firewall issues with windows, I completely switch it off to see whether it is the issue
13:12:19  <Smokebuddie> ah ok
13:13:05  <planetmaker> (and often the programme then works... which then ends up with hours of swearing and weeding through MS firewall stuff)
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13:22:56  <peter1138> I! Am! Back!
13:25:36  <Eddi|zuHause> do you also speak with a weird austrian accent?
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13:37:06  <peter1138> I could try.
13:40:06  <supermop_Home> yo
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14:01:50  <nielsm> okay I managed to get a network game to show up on the server list, finally
14:03:14  <nielsm> had to do three things: set up port fwd in my main router (the one I like to use), set up windows firewall, and set up port fwd in my ISP-supplied router (the one I only use because it also serves as cable modem and am therefore forced to have on)
14:04:03  <planetmaker> right... there can be a 3rd one, if you have two in your home chained.
14:04:35  <nielsm> "normal" users shouldn't have that
14:04:38  <nielsm> double NAT is hell
14:07:27  <peter1138> Hmm, I wonder when the performance difference between std::set and std::unordered_set becomes noticable.
14:07:37  <nielsm>
14:08:08  <nielsm> I'd expect unordered_set to be faster in almost all cases on modern hardware
14:08:58  <nielsm> (also the master server should be updated to handle the longer revision strings)
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14:10:25  <peter1138> Hmm, I wonder...
14:11:03  <peter1138> unordered_set may not iterate in the same order depending on compiler/machine, right?
14:11:10  <nielsm> yeah
14:11:28  <peter1138> So I proably ought to use a set when iterating otherwise... desync.
14:11:30  <nielsm> I don't think the exact hash algorithm is defined
14:11:48  <nielsm> if the iteration order matters, then yes
14:12:08  <nielsm> question is if a straight vector isn't better regardless
14:14:20  <nielsm> a std::set is a tree structure of multiple small objects, it has pretty bad memory locality properties and can easily murder cpu caches, the constant factor losses in this empirically overcome all the asymptotic runtime advantages even at very large data sizes
14:14:33  <peter1138> Hmm.
14:15:13  <peter1138> Mostly the sets have very few items.
14:15:23  <nielsm> even more reason to use a vector :)
14:16:21  <peter1138> I guess I was using it to be lazy with checking if an item is alreay in it.
14:17:47  <peter1138> Yeah, with vector I have to manually test every time.
14:17:56  <nielsm> I want std::stupid_set that is just a vector of items in insertion order, membership is checked by linear search, removing items from the middle moves all following items down
14:18:41  <peter1138>
14:19:08  <peter1138> ^ that top answer using <algorithm> is a bit long-winded.
14:20:22  <nielsm> yeah that's the thing, "contains" is an annoying operation to express in stl on std::vector
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14:33:04  * planetmaker senses small_vector's optimizations coming back
14:33:20  <peter1138> hahah
14:41:19  <peter1138> Hmm, actually if I'm iterating an unordered_set, and then inserting into a set, the order will be correct anyway.
14:49:38  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN approved pull request #7241: Fix 1585eb1a3: wrong default selection for goals and story book
14:53:29  <Eddi|zuHause> remember yesterday when i had trouble getting out of a cave?
14:53:37  <Eddi|zuHause> today i have trouble getting back in
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15:01:08  <peter1138> Oh.
15:01:38  <Wolf01> Eddi|zuHause: take a tractor, put a drill on the front, go get that astronium in the planet core
15:02:23  <glx> I should merge an approved PR, but I'm scared
15:02:39  <peter1138> Orders?
15:02:42  <Wolf01> I have troubles finding wolframite... I'm in Desolo and I only found a piece in a wreck
15:02:54  <peter1138> I think 7241 is pretty safe ;)
15:03:18  <glx> I know but we always get bug reports once merged
15:03:44  <Samu> hi
15:04:09  <peter1138> We need more regression tests ;)
15:04:57  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 merged pull request #7241: Fix 1585eb1a3: wrong default selection for goals and story book
15:05:28  <glx> yeah a game script testing the GUI is probably possible
15:06:20  <peter1138> I'm not sure it would cover this one, though.
15:06:35  <peter1138> Hmm...
15:06:50  <glx> indeed this one needs a spectator
15:06:59  <glx> and GS is deity
15:06:59  <peter1138> When you refactor stuff and end up with a function that simply calls another function, but it's called from tons of places.
15:07:55  <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: not quite there yet :p
15:08:17  <Eddi|zuHause> but this arid planet is extremely annoying.. every 3 step there's a hole in the ground
15:10:23  <Wolf01> Yeah
15:11:13  <Samu> my ai is failing
15:11:19  <Samu> groups are messed up yet
15:13:07  <Eddi|zuHause> and this aluminium deposit was a total troll, not even a single complete unit
15:14:13  <LordAro> Eddi|zuHause: i just had an ammonium deposit like that, i just kept digging until i found something
15:14:15  <Gabda> Wolf, Eddi: what is this game you are talking about?
15:14:35  <Wolf01> Astroneer
15:14:46  <Eddi|zuHause> LordAro: just use the soil refinery
15:15:21  <LordAro> Eddi|zuHause: i've not gotten that far yet :p
15:15:32  <Wolf01> Ahah
15:16:01  <Eddi|zuHause> LordAro: what you need ammoinum for then?
15:16:12  <Eddi|zuHause> LordAro: you can get everything for the soil refinery on the starting planet
15:16:39  <Gabda> are you playing it solo, or multi coop?
15:17:15  <Wolf01> I'm forced to play solo until they activate my new internet line, but I hope to play some coop
15:17:57  <Eddi|zuHause> i play solo, so far
15:18:19  <Eddi|zuHause> not sure i would be any use in coop with the nonexistent performance :p
15:18:20  <Samu> when I clone a vehicle, do I also clone its group?
15:18:42  <Wolf01> Usually yes
15:19:03  <LordAro> Eddi|zuHause: because i'm still in the "pick up everything i see" stage
15:19:56  <Eddi|zuHause> i'd like a digging tool mod that increases the distance where it detects deposits underground
15:20:52  <Wolf01> I'd like to be able to deactivate mods without moving them on the backpack :|
15:21:39  <Wolf01> Like you do with the working light or the generator if placed on the shoulder attachments
15:23:09  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't really use generator
15:26:14  <Samu> damn it, why are groups failing, why do I always fail
15:26:43  <Eddi|zuHause> in general, i kinda hate single-use items (energy cells, oxygen filters, organic fuel)
15:26:52  <Wolf01> I do only in the early game, as soon as I explore I find solar panels or wind turbines everywhere
15:27:29  <Wolf01> I use energy cells on the buggy, one grants you like 40 minutes of power
15:27:42  <Wolf01> And you can find them almost everywhere
15:28:01  <Eddi|zuHause> i've not run out of power with a wind turbine
15:28:37  <Samu> openttd group sorter is really weird
15:28:55  <Samu> groups numbered over 1,000 come first than a group numbered 1
15:29:01  <peter1138> It needs to maintain heirarchy.
15:29:02  <peter1138> Oh.
15:29:23  <peter1138> Do we ever sort numerically rather than alphabetically?
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15:30:19  <nielsm>  well, first steps... now to make it actually resize and scroll
15:30:33  <Wolf01> I would like to reach Vesania to find some lithium, so I can start to flood the base with batteries... until I'll be able to craft some RTG
15:30:44  <Wolf01> But that's late game
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15:32:33  <Samu> I dont understand why i still have empty groups
15:32:41  <pnda> When I see "Graphics frame rate". Will there ever be a more optimized performance ingame? I mean, you don't need more than 60fps in a game like this, but if games would be more stable and load faster, when there are a lot of trains etc. running, that would be great, and would fit into that window aswell.
15:32:41  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] GabdaZM opened pull request #7242: Codechange: Improve performance of town name refresh on viewports
15:32:48  <Samu> i thought I would delete them all
15:34:36  <pnda> Also, is that Frame rate window included in the 1.9.0-beta2 you can download of the site?
15:35:42  <Gabda> did any of you find that scrolling if lagging on really large maps with lots of towns, or is it just me, because I use extreme number of towns (30k)?
15:36:16  <Gabda> (I only use that map for testing, not playing)
15:37:52  <Gabda> pnda: I am working on small performance upgrades :)
15:38:43  <pnda> I hope so. I think it would really benefit servers, and slower systems would maybe be able to play on larger maps
15:39:28  <pnda> I feel like OpenTTD should get Multi Threaded Support, for those with really fast PCs (like me)
15:39:44  <Eddi|zuHause> pnda: the game itself runs at 30fps, but people have been requesting things like UI to use higher frame rate
15:39:47  <Gabda> well, performance upgrades usually goes with increased memory usage, so old systems might have problem with that as well
15:39:56  <Eddi|zuHause> or 33fps
15:40:01  <Eddi|zuHause> i never remember
15:40:28  <pnda> I mean, you really don't need more than 60fps in this type of game.
15:41:08  <Eddi|zuHause> pnda: the people using 144fps monitors seem to disagree
15:41:21  <pnda> I have a 144Hz monitor myself
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15:44:41  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on pull request #7178: Add AI and GS to framerate window
15:47:53  <pnda> Small request: When loading a game/creating a map/saving a game, could it be changed so that OpenTTD uses all available std::threads? (I have not much clue of C++)
15:48:12  <nielsm> not possible
15:48:27  <nielsm> probably¨
15:48:57  <Eddi|zuHause> great. and now i glitched through the terrain into a totally different cave
15:50:31  <pnda> nielsm: It seems possible to me:
15:51:24  <nielsm> pnda yes multithreading is possible "in general", but the specific structure of the save/load code in OTTD makes it unlikely to be threadable without a gigantic project
15:53:37  <nielsm> actually what do you even mean by multithreading it? run it in the background while you keep playing the game?
15:53:57  <nielsm> or split the job up so multiple parts of the loading or saving are handled simultaneously?
15:54:39  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] GabdaZM commented on pull request #7120: Codechange: Improve performance of closest town lookups with cache
15:56:14  <Samu> i'm getting helicopters in a group that was supposedly for send to depot only
15:56:15  <pnda> Well, with the 1.9.0-beta2 it seems that it does use all of my 6 Cores, though it only uses them ~40% (max 50%), which I think is kinda strange.
15:56:27  <Samu> also have planes
15:56:36  <Samu> something not working, I'm sad
15:57:04  <Eddi|zuHause> that's not really relevant
15:57:44  <nielsm> OTTD is single-threaded by design, the single-threaded-ness is pervasive through the entire game, you wouldn't be able to make the simulation itself multithreaded in a reasonable manner
15:58:21  <nielsm> the reason is that the simulation needs to be predictable, and splitting it up across threads makes it unpredictable
15:58:26  <Eddi|zuHause> that just means it's shuffling around the maxed out thread between different CPUs, which is actually a terrible idea
15:58:55  <LordAro> (this is quite common amongst a lot of games - not everything is parallelisable)
15:59:04  <Eddi|zuHause> because that inhibits processor features like overclocking a single core while the others are idle
15:59:51  <Samu> i wanted AIs to multithread
15:59:57  <nielsm> there are some parts of OTTD that run on separate threads, for example graphics output may be separate depending on driver, music and sound may run in a thread, and the link graph updates (relates to cargodist) runs on a separate thread
16:00:08  <pnda> You can overclock a single processor core like you want, that's not dependant on how a program is programmed to work
16:00:11  <Samu> 1 thread per AI
16:00:34  <Samu> use the queue command
16:00:35  <pnda> uhhh...My CPU only has 6 Threads, and the average CPU has 4 Threads...Over what does the game support, 16 AIs?
16:01:01  <nielsm> the cargodist link graph update is the only part of game logic that runs in a thread, and that's only possible by letting it have a deadline measured in simulated game ticks, and only integrating the thread result in game logic after the deadline has passed regardless of whether the thread finished sooner
16:01:12  <Samu> whichever AI completes the job first, gets in the queue first
16:01:18  <dwfreed> pnda: CPUs are capable of running more than 1 thread at a time
16:01:36  <dwfreed> (not really at a time, but that's what task switching takes care of)
16:01:47  <pnda> dwfreed you mean SMT/HT?
16:01:51  <dwfreed> no
16:01:57  <LordAro> pnda: careful, you're at risk of revealing a lack of knowledge about multithreading :)
16:02:05  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] GabdaZM commented on pull request #7120: Codechange: Improve performance of closest town lookups with cache
16:02:12  <dwfreed> I mean the fact that CPUs aren't limited to running 1 process forever
16:02:12  <pnda> what do you mean by that
16:02:25  <milek7> for saving, maybe it is possible to fork() and finish saving in second process
16:02:34  <dwfreed> otherwise single-core single-thread processors would never have done much of anything useful
16:02:50  <Eddi|zuHause> <pnda> uhhh...My CPU only has 6 Threads, and the average CPU has 4 Threads...Over what does the game support, 16 AIs? <-- the AI threads are only threads to have local data access, they can't actually run in parallel
16:03:07  <LordAro> pnda: worrying about having more threads than CPUs is very close to nonsense
16:03:11  <nielsm> uh can anyone help me with some window system stuff? the "fill" parameter in UpdateWidgetSize, what does that mean, "fill step of the widget" means nothing to me
16:03:52  <glx> saving is already threaded
16:03:55  <pnda> LordAro: "having more threads than CPUs", what?
16:04:07  <glx> well the writing to disk part is threaded
16:04:33  <Eddi|zuHause> <milek7> for saving, maybe it is possible to fork() and finish saving in second process <-- it already does that for compressing/writing to disk
16:05:10  <Samu> there can be 15 AIs
16:05:24  <glx> pnda: one CPU can have run many threads, it's called multitasking
16:06:11  <Eddi|zuHause>  <pnda> uhhh...My CPU only has 6 Threads, and the average CPU has 4 Threads...Over what does the game support, 16 AIs? <-- this is total nonsense, your CPU already runs hundreds of threads before you even get to starting the game
16:06:28  <pnda> glx: They get switched arround constantly, they aren't actually running at the same time exactly.
16:06:44  <glx> of course
16:06:44  <dwfreed> no shit
16:06:50  <dwfreed> that's what we've been saying :P
16:06:54  <pnda> No really.
16:07:15  <Samu> my idea was... make all AIs execute their code simultaneously, on different threads and once they need to queue commands, whichever comes first, gets it queued first
16:07:32  <Samu> then openttd runs the queue
16:07:37  <pnda> I never doubted that CPUs can just do whatever they want, and do thousands of stuff at exactly the same time.
16:07:42  <glx> I think on windows there is at almost 10 threads for openttd only
16:08:37  <dwfreed> I have threading enabled in nginx on this system; 1 master process, 2 worker process, each worker process has another 32 threads for i/o work
16:09:03  <dwfreed> s/process, e/processes, e/
16:11:01  <Samu> i just wonder if it's doable
16:11:05  <pnda> I think we were talking about different threads. But I am completely confused just now
16:11:17  <Samu> i mean, commands are already sent to a queue
16:11:20  <nielsm> pnda everyone is talking about OS threads
16:11:32  <nielsm> not (virtual or real) cpu cores
16:11:44  <pnda> yeah, I meant real cores
16:12:30  <Samu> this game is real time, so it needs to be sync'ed
16:12:46  <Samu> that's usually the task of 1 thread
16:12:50  <nielsm> Samu that's the wrong explanation
16:12:57  <Samu> ok i failagain
16:14:00  <nielsm> the simulation logic is single-threaded because it needs to reproduce exact results when a tick is simulated from the same starting point, that's the basis for multiplayer working at all
16:14:12  <glx> that's also why we don't use floats
16:14:31  <glx> because roundings can differ depending on the used CPU
16:14:45  <dwfreed> yay float bugs
16:15:05  <Eddi|zuHause> it's not bugs...
16:15:10  <nielsm> multithreading would either mean unpredictable results, or that everything needs to synchronize all the time losing any benefit made from parallelism
16:15:13  <Eddi|zuHause> it's undefined behaviour
16:15:49  <dwfreed> nielsm: there's still a benefit to parallelism if you have multiple simulations that need to be made every tick (eg multiple AIs)
16:15:57  <pnda> So why did my installation of OpenTTD use all 6 physical cores of mine while loading, and not just one?
16:16:33  <pnda> Probably AIs could really benefit of multiple simultaneous processes
16:16:33  <dwfreed> time(A) + time(B) becomes max(time(A), time(B)), where time(X) is the time it takes for X simulation to run
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16:16:51  <nielsm> for example x87 floating point registers are 80 bit extended precision, floating point code compiled for that can have more internal precision causing it to produce different results to the same code compiled for an ARM architecture which works with 64 bit double precision all the way
16:17:29  <pnda> You lost me there
16:17:36  <glx> because openttd uses many threads, even if the game core is single threaded
16:18:42  <Samu> pentium bug
16:18:53  <pnda> And why does, even when creating a new 4kx4k map, my CPU not go over 35% usage?
16:18:56  <glx> when pausing during the starting newgrf scan I have 12 threads
16:19:17  <nielsm> uint fill_y;          ///< Vertical fill stepsize (from initial size, \c 0 means not resizable).
16:19:21  <nielsm> what is fill?
16:19:22  <dwfreed> pnda: 35% out of 100% or 35% out of (numThreads * 100)% ?
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16:19:49  <pnda> numThreads, OS threads or the real threads of my CPU?
16:20:05  <dwfreed> threads of the CPU, including SMT threads if available
16:20:06  <glx> nielsm: empty widget space I think
16:20:15  <pnda> Uhh, that would be 210 then
16:20:52  <dwfreed> I'm asking what the scale of the 35% is
16:20:54  <milek7> about floats, ieee754 is well-defined, right? and intermediate precision could be set with compiler flags
16:21:14  <dwfreed> milek7: CPU bugs, see Samu's mention of the Pentium bug
16:21:21  <nielsm> glx, any suggestion to a file I could read to help understanding the resizing logic?
16:21:28  <pnda> Uhh... It's 35% over all cores, idk what you mean
16:22:03  <dwfreed> milek7:
16:22:20  <milek7> i hope nobody uses old pentium now ;p
16:22:27  <dwfreed> pnda: so 35% out of a possible 600%, not 35% out of a possible 100%
16:22:39  <pnda> Uhm, I guess
16:23:01  <dwfreed> because that is an important distinction
16:23:29  <dwfreed> milek7: the point is that that bug is still a possibility today
16:23:56  <LordAro> with 6 cores, 35% of 600% is an issue, 35% of 100% is not
16:24:25  <milek7> hm.
16:24:33  <milek7> seems complicated
16:24:47  <LordAro> milek7: also, integer maths is generally much faster and easier to reason abouty
16:24:50  <LordAro> -y
16:25:10  <LordAro> (35% (of 100%) is approximately 1/3, so 2 cores at 100%)
16:26:48  <pnda> So why is that bad, 35% out of 600%
16:27:39  <dwfreed> because there shouldn't be any reason it's not at at least 100% out of 600%, especially if it is a long running process
16:27:48  <pnda> And over Task Manager, it looked like none of the cores itself were over 40%
16:28:17  <LordAro> task manager isn't that great of a measuring tool
16:28:39  <pnda> It's good enough
16:28:54  <dwfreed> yeah, I wish the graph per thread on task manager was vertically arranged, not horizontally
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16:29:29  <dwfreed> also, in the process list on Windows 7 Task Manager, percentages are out of 100%; no idea if that holds for newer Windows versions
16:29:47  <glx> nielsm: the comment may be wrong if compared to NWidgetResizeBase::SetFill() widget.cpp:839
16:29:48  <pnda> Yeah, that seems to still be the case
16:30:11  <dwfreed> so your 35% is actually 210% then :P
16:30:33  <pnda> *This is probably irrelevant, but my GPU doesn't even hit 30%*
16:30:49  <dwfreed> which is probably fine, depending on how many threads are running map generation
16:31:05  <pnda> Here you can see it visualized, each window is one core:
16:31:38  <dwfreed> pnda: not surprising, openttd is not exactly the definition of a graphically intensive game
16:31:45  <Samu> my cpu is running 1617 threads atm
16:32:21  <Samu>
16:32:26  <planetmaker> indeed. cpu... is hardly used by OpenTTD.
16:33:09  <LordAro> planetmaker: you meant gpu, right?
16:33:23  <planetmaker> indeed!
16:33:57  <pnda> And a 8150 can do 3.6 million threads per second
16:34:09  <LordAro>
16:34:17  <glx> operations, no threads
16:34:21  <planetmaker> ops != threads
16:34:21  <pnda> Wwait I just lost it
16:35:17  <pnda> yeah just noticed myself
16:35:21  <pnda> I should sleep more....
16:35:26  <Samu> back to where I was... my AI is bugged
16:35:36  <Samu> i fail at groups,yada yada
16:35:47  <Samu> not uploading v8 yet
16:36:18  <glx> using master (ie 1.9) api or compat one ?
16:36:31  <Samu> still running 1.4
16:40:36  <glx> just checked the code, cloned vehicles go in the same group
16:42:17  <Samu> my road vehicles groups look fine
16:42:26  <Samu> but let me recheck, wanna make sure
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16:42:51  <glx> be sure to put a vehicle in a group before starting to clone it
16:42:57  <Samu> nop
16:43:02  <Samu> i have emtpy groups
16:43:07  <Samu> it's not fine either
16:43:47  <glx> do you ever put vehicles in these groups after you created them ?
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16:45:12  <Samu> yes, i believe so
16:45:15  <glx> new (non cloned) vehicles don't go in groups when built, you have to move them
16:46:27  <Samu> let me upload my stuff for u to see
16:46:46  <Eddi|zuHause> <pnda> And over Task Manager, it looked like none of the cores itself were over 40% <-- because windows is stupid and goes "oh look, CPU 1 is at 100% while the other does nothing, let's move this big thread to CPU 2", and a fraction of a second later goes "oh look, CPU 2 is at 100% while the other does nothing, let's move this big thread to CPU 3"
16:46:53  <Eddi|zuHause> and so on
16:47:38  <Eddi|zuHause> so if you average that out over a second or so, each CPU is at 25% (in case of 4 CPUs and one big thread running at 100% of one CPU)
16:48:23  <planetmaker> such behaviour sounds like a good plan for cpu energy management ;)
16:48:41  <Samu> wait this is v7
16:49:05  <Eddi|zuHause> if by "good" you mean "ruining" :p
16:49:50  <Samu> ok, uploaded v8
16:49:55  <planetmaker> "good" :)
16:50:24  <Samu> weird spacing
16:50:38  <Samu> this is where I deal with road vehicles
16:50:51  <Samu> I don't understand that spacing
16:50:53  <Samu> identing
16:51:01  <Samu> i see it fine on notepad++
16:51:01  <Eddi|zuHause> it means you're constantly switching power states of each CPU, instead of being able to use the boost features of a single cpu
16:51:16  <Eddi|zuHause> and you're having context switches and cache losses all over the place
16:51:22  <dwfreed> Samu: spaces vs tabs
16:51:33  <planetmaker> ^^
16:51:36  <dwfreed> Samu: line 12 is 4 spaces, line 13 is 1 tab
16:51:46  <glx> notepad++ has a nice feature for that
16:52:45  <pnda> I like 4 spaces = 1 tab the most, default in my text editor
16:52:46  <nielsm>
16:52:53  <glx> in edit menu, theres a "spaces treatments" or something like that
16:52:57  <nielsm> hmm I wonder if that makes a difference for anything?
16:53:04  <nielsm> one of the thread tasks you can indicate is Games
16:53:09  <Samu> line 185 is where i make vehicles
16:53:15  <Samu>
16:53:15  <glx> use the latest option to transform spaces in tabs
16:54:26  <glx> please convert spaces to tabs in your files and commit that
16:54:32  <glx> will be easier to read
16:54:34  <Samu> ok
16:55:07  <LordAro> (or tabs to spaces, but consistency is better)
16:56:07  <glx> tabs is better, everyone can then use his prefered tab size
16:56:59  <LordAro> i don't disagree, but the programming world has generally chosen spaces
16:57:46  <glx> oh another useful notepad++ option in the same sub menu is "remove spaces at end of lines"
16:58:37  <Samu> pushed
16:58:50  <Samu> oops
16:59:43  <glx> but this one is less important when reading ;)
17:00:08  <Samu> trim trailing space?
17:00:20  <glx> yes
17:01:56  <Samu> done
17:01:58  <Wolf01> Hmmm, extenders seem to not work :/
17:02:00  <Samu> upushed
17:02:44  <Samu> wow looks better, I didn't know there was this kind of magic in notepad
17:02:57  <Wolf01> Oh, ok, they changed completely how extenders are placed
17:03:32  <Eddi|zuHause> i haven't tried extenders... i found some, but i have no real idea why to use them
17:04:29  <glx> seems you correctly move vehicle to m_group once built
17:07:02  <glx> so the problem maybe m_group itself
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17:14:45  <Samu> must identify the problem yet
17:14:54  <Samu> I'm not so sure why I have empty groups
17:15:43  <Samu> m_group should be deleted if the route is empty
17:15:51  <Samu> no vehicles
17:15:55  <Samu> no stations, no depots
17:16:00  <Samu> cleaning up the route
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17:19:10  <glx> but created groups never use by vehicles are not removed it seems as your code only use vehicle list
17:20:14  <Samu> oh im not saving m_group :(
17:20:17  <Samu> dumb
17:20:35  <Samu> no wonder i was seeing weird groups after loading
17:22:34  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on pull request #7227: Replace Window::scrolling_scrollbar with Window::active_widget
17:23:37  <Eddi|zuHause> i also need an only-add and only-remove inhibitor
17:25:41  <Samu> function GroupVehicles() { this thing needs either removal, or a rework
17:26:41  <Wolf01> You can couple the inhibitor with the analyzer to only touch a particular colour of terrain
17:28:25  <Wolf01> I also found the packager really usefull, it helps a lot when you are far away and find something bigger which still function, or research items
17:28:38  <Samu> I don't need share orders to be done in that part
17:28:46  <Samu> i think it is safe to remove
17:36:59  <Wolf01> So, it's always a pleasure to fall with the entire train in a crater...
17:38:49  <Samu> as for the aircraft groups
17:38:53  <Samu> i'm getting
17:39:10  <Samu> vehicles in the send_to_depot group[0]
17:39:16  <Samu> that are not heading to depots
17:39:41  <Samu> it is being used as a group for several air routes
17:39:47  <Samu> i don't want that
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17:40:11  <Samu> where did I fail
17:40:29  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] M3Henry updated pull request #7165: [core] Implement SmallVector using std::vector
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17:41:05  <m3henry> The low hanging fruit is gone
17:43:49  <andythenorth> yeah but yo
17:43:50  <andythenorth> also
17:43:51  <andythenorth> and hi
17:43:55  <Wolf01> o/
17:45:08  <Eddi|zuHause> these caves in the arid planet are surely impressive, but i have no clue how to get up or down there
17:45:35  <Wolf01> Just dig and make ramps
17:45:37  <Eddi|zuHause> m3henry: "wiht"
17:46:26  <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: that would make sense if i'm near the wall of the cave, but looks like i'm more like on the roof of the cave
17:46:29  <Wolf01> Also consider to mod the terrain tool with a better drill mod
17:46:46  <Eddi|zuHause> i have the 1st drill mod
17:47:28  <Wolf01> Oh, I make ramps everywhere, you can see my ramps in the middle of a big cavern reaching for the ceiling
17:47:48  <Wolf01> Use ctrl to keep the same inclination and go on :P
17:48:07  <Eddi|zuHause> whenever i try that, i tend to fall off the sides to my death
17:48:15  <Eddi|zuHause> because it goes slipping
17:48:19  <Wolf01> Make them larger :P
17:48:34  <Eddi|zuHause> i already got the wide mod :p
17:49:04  <Wolf01> No, really larger, you can paint them how you want
17:49:25  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't have 12 canisters with me :p
17:49:50  <Wolf01> Maybe it's because I have like 130 hours on it, but I'm not dying of falling damage since.. a lot of time
17:51:54  <Eddi|zuHause> on this arid planet i drop every 3 steps
17:52:22  <Eddi|zuHause> usually i reload because i can't get to the body to retrieve things
17:53:09  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh updated pull request #7178: Add AI and GS to framerate window
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17:55:26  <m3henry> Eddi: :v
17:56:13  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh updated pull request #7178: Add AI and GS to framerate window
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18:02:12  <Samu> so, when will locks become 1-tile wide only? :p
18:06:41  <Samu> how to detect wether a vehicle is already heading to a depot?
18:06:48  <Samu> and stopping in it
18:07:16  <Samu> is there a way that doesn't involve groups, or lists
18:07:20  <Samu> ?
18:07:24  <nielsm> get current order and check for OF_STOP_IN_DEPOT flag?
18:08:05  <nielsm> or well I guess you can't check the current order? only orders on the schedule?
18:09:04  <Samu> that's what I wonder
18:09:10  <Samu> is there a way?
18:09:50  <Samu> all this trouble is because I don't know of a better way
18:10:10  <nielsm> that is the way you would do it outside squirrel
18:13:44  <Samu> group wasn't deleted :(
18:14:29  <Samu> 				if (AIGroup.IsValidGroup(m_group)) {
18:14:29  <Samu> 					AIGroup.DeleteGroup(m_group);
18:14:29  <Samu> 				}
18:14:37  <Samu> but it wasn't deleted
18:14:37  <Samu> why
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18:19:15  <peter1138> Hmm.
18:20:16  <peter1138> Okay, found my bug. A simple negated test :p
18:21:05  <peter1138> Station Wrunnpool Pit removed from town Wrunnpool
18:21:06  <peter1138> Town at 43x12 (Wrunnpool) lost 1 stations
18:21:08  <peter1138> Yay :D
18:21:25  <Samu> are u creating a ai?
18:21:37  <peter1138> Just saw Alita: Battle Angel. It's pretty... Hmm... yeah, no.
18:21:47  <peter1138> Samu, no, I'm working on catchment area stuff.
18:22:10  <LordAro> peter1138: it looked rather dubious from the trailer
18:22:25  <peter1138> It is.
18:23:12  * peter1138 checks the scrollback. Persistence, as it were.
18:24:53  <peter1138> Ok, I can't be arsed with that.
18:25:44  <peter1138> Turns out my test was negated so it removed all the stations, hehe.
18:26:23  <Wolf01> <peter1138> Just saw Alita: Battle Angel. It's pretty... Hmm... yeah, no. <- I could have seen it yesterday, but it didn't catch me
18:27:02  <peter1138> Hmm
18:27:08  <peter1138> Whatever happened to bridge length limits?
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18:27:34  <Samu> max length 64 i think
18:27:37  <Samu> or is it 4096?
18:27:42  <peter1138> Oh there are some.
18:27:48  <peter1138> I thought the wooden bridge has a short limit too
18:27:51  <nielsm> hm is there a better way to detect if any AI or GS are active at all than checking each company?
18:28:22  <Eddi|zuHause> no, wooden was always somewhat infinite
18:28:57  <Eddi|zuHause> nielsm: wasn't there a command for that?
18:30:54  <nielsm> Eddi|zuHause: the context is framerate measuring and whether to do the total sum of all scripts
18:31:55  <glx> I don't think there's another way
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18:32:29  <glx> as AI instance is local to the company
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18:35:07  <glx> but AI:GameLoop seems to be a good place to plug your stuff
18:36:10  <nielsm> I already am doing that for individual script measurements
18:36:12  <peter1138> Problem with using caches is keeping them correct :/
18:36:34  <nielsm> the issue is making a sum of everything, and making sure that sum goes away when all scripts also go away
18:37:21  <peter1138> And basically edge cases, like a town shrinking. Is that still a thing...
18:37:52  <nielsm> players bombing it?
18:38:04  <peter1138> Quite.
18:38:39  <glx> removing the tile under the town name ?
18:39:15  <peter1138> Ooh, I should try that.
18:46:56  <Samu> i found the problem!
18:46:58  <Samu> removeIfUnserviced()
18:47:05  <Samu> this thing isn't removing correctly
18:47:42  <Samu> must reinvent
18:48:02  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN commented on pull request #7227: Replace Window::scrolling_scrollbar with Window::active_widget
18:48:30  <Samu> gonna make use of the removal scheduller
18:48:42  <peter1138> Pikka, was ever useful?
18:49:54  <Pikka> not sure. It might have had something to do with drawing "detailed" junctions
18:50:39  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 commented on pull request #7220: Change: Increase maximum number of orders from 64000 to ~16.7m.
18:51:07  <peter1138> Yes, the idea is you have to draw every combination instead the game combining bits.
18:51:12  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh updated pull request #7178: Add AI and GS to framerate window
18:51:16  <peter1138> But the commit date is 2013...
18:51:24  <peter1138> I don't think anyone tested it :D
18:51:38  <peter1138> I can't remember who wanted, but I suspect it was based on that that you mentioned.
18:52:08  <peter1138> 6 years ago... Maybe I should check IRC logs :D
18:53:03  <peter1138>
18:53:06  <peter1138> Not even kidding.
18:53:29  <peter1138> Look at me being all sarky with Eddi|zuHause still :D
18:53:32  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on pull request #7178: Add AI and GS to framerate window
18:53:51  <peter1138> 13:01 <@peter1138> pikka, make a test grf!
18:53:53  <peter1138> ^ haha
18:54:45  <Pikka> I guess I got over the idea :P
18:54:59  <peter1138> It's a bit random, even then.
18:55:52  <Eddi|zuHause> i probably said something about how that's not exactly what i wanted :p
18:56:14  <peter1138> You requested a new var.
18:56:28  <peter1138> peter1138: plus a 40+ variable that gives you x%2 + y%2 << 1 so you can vary the 3rd rail for left/right side and stuff
18:56:38  <peter1138> So...
18:57:00  <Eddi|zuHause> oh yeah, that too :p
18:57:28  <Eddi|zuHause> "if we're gonna add railtype vars, might as well add all of them :p"
18:57:48  <peter1138> Yeah... it wasn't a railtype var ;)
19:05:40  <Samu> glx, just solved the road vehicle groups being empty!
19:06:17  <Samu> now, aircraft groups :|
19:06:23  <Samu> different kind of problem
19:07:25  <peter1138> Hmm, AIs use distant join?
19:08:11  <peter1138> Guess they do. Neat.
19:09:02  <Samu> my ai does
19:09:07  <Samu> it abuses to win
19:09:28  <Samu> well, it was in the original LuDiAI
19:09:32  <Samu> i kept i
19:09:32  <Samu> t
19:10:13  <peter1138> Yeah, nice.
19:10:25  <peter1138> Which one is yours again?
19:12:05  <peter1138> Oh, LuDiAI crashes :/
19:12:23  <peter1138> Oh, no, it was the gamescript. Oops?
19:12:29  <peter1138> Ah citybuilder.
19:14:12  <Samu> AIAI also does it, but it misuses it
19:14:22  <Samu> really weird to look at
19:14:49  <peter1138> Misuses?
19:15:05  <Samu> yes, the distant join stations aren't connected to roads
19:15:09  <peter1138> o
19:15:11  <Samu> they're just there
19:15:24  <Samu> unconnected, bad for the looks
19:16:54  <Samu> mine is LuDiAI Afterfix
19:17:01  <Samu> I missed that question
19:17:04  <peter1138> Ah okay, I was using that one :-)
19:20:25  <Eddi|zuHause> yay, my tractor fell through the perfectly flat terrain
19:26:55  <peter1138>
19:27:14  <peter1138> Hmm, so that's the catchment area of all stations that cover that town.
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19:34:05  <peter1138> Funny though, attaching a station to a large airport doesn't really extend the catchment area at all.
19:34:08  <peter1138> Maybe it should :p
19:39:10  <Samu> oh boy, looking at my aircraft group management is scary
19:39:17  <Samu> groups suddenly poof and reappear
19:40:35  <Samu> I ned to think, what could possibly cause an aircraft to be in the wrong group
19:41:21  <Samu> i had aircraft in send_to_depot[0] group that weren't heading to depot
19:41:53  <Samu> the group was being misused for several air routes
19:42:19  <Samu> clone vehicle
19:42:22  <Samu> must be that
19:43:19  <Samu> too bad I can't make it happen when I want
19:43:24  <Samu> can't reproduce
19:51:42  <peter1138>
19:51:46  <peter1138> Kinda useful visualation.
19:51:56  <peter1138> Well, more useful if it only showed your own stations.
19:52:58  <peter1138> +iz
20:00:12  <Eddi|zuHause> what happened to that tile highlighting patch?
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20:05:43  <Samu> funny how things get displayed on github
20:05:49  <Samu> it always wants a commit message...
20:07:34  <Samu> oops
20:08:09  <Samu> fixed a typo
20:10:48  <Samu> tile highlighting patch
20:10:50  <Samu> ?
20:11:35  <peter1138> Just debugging for my non-rectangular catchment
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20:16:48  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on pull request #7227: Replace Window::scrolling_scrollbar with Window::active_widget
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20:28:23  <peter1138> LordAro, "tiny" bit of tiffin :o
20:28:37  <LordAro> peter1138: yes please
20:28:57  <LordAro> i just had a not-insignificant slice of victoria sponge
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20:36:37  <peter1138> LordAro, I just demolished
20:37:29  <LordAro> oooh
20:37:36  <LordAro> very much yes
20:38:36  <peter1138> There's a certain theme to my instagram :p
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20:41:12  <peter1138> So, newgrf presets on bananas? :p
20:41:27  <Samu> speaking of bananas
20:42:00  <Samu>
20:42:10  <Samu> can't make it unavailable for 1.9.0
20:42:21  <peter1138> I don't think that link will work for anyone else.
20:42:56  <Samu> maximum openttd version is 1.6.0, I need to input 1.8.0
20:43:04  <glx> 1.9.0 doesn't exist yet
20:43:22  <peter1138> I think it doesn't contain the last few releases either.
20:43:25  <Samu> it exist beta
20:43:51  <peter1138> I'm guessing based on Samu's 'description' though.
20:44:26  <peter1138> Samu, if OpenTTD versions are missing from bananas, what you could do is actually report a bug against it.
20:44:40  <Samu> i dont know how to report banana bug
20:45:05  <peter1138> It doesn't seem to be on github, so you could try the website project.
20:45:13  <peter1138>
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20:45:21  <peter1138> Just make it clear you are talking about banans,
20:45:23  <peter1138> +a
20:45:30  <Samu>
20:45:31  <peter1138> And make it clear what the problem is, but that's normal.
20:45:50  <peter1138> Yes, you could attach that picture to your bug report, that would be useful.
20:46:17  <glx> bananas is still on the old infrastructure anyway
20:46:44  <glx> and I think there were discussion about rewriting it
20:47:48  <glx> bananas issues can go in openttd issues
20:49:13  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/website] SamuXarick opened issue #60: Can't select 1.8.0 as maximum openttd version
20:49:26  <glx> ha yes there's
20:51:10  <Samu> too late
20:55:15  <Samu> giving 2 more days for my AI testings
20:59:46  <peter1138> And dessert is... sliced kiwi, sliced half apple, and 1/4 tub of creme fraiche
21:00:37  <peter1138> Might have room for beese and chiscuits.
21:00:39  *** sla_ro|master has quit IRC
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21:07:13  <supermop_Home_> YO
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21:13:01  <andythenorth> I won!
21:13:04  <andythenorth> yay me
21:13:05  <peter1138> What though?
21:13:12  <andythenorth> Silicon Valley GS
21:17:25  <andythenorth> also bed maybe
21:17:37  <peter1138> No, too early.
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21:33:44  <peter1138> nielsm, hmm, "captured_widget" maybe
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22:44:51  <peter1138> Hmm
22:54:45  <peter1138> Mmm, beese and chiscuits.
23:04:41  *** Wolf01 has quit IRC
23:26:00  <peter1138> Hmm, what happened? So quiet :(
23:26:06  <peter1138> Oh yeah, of course, IRC is dead.
23:26:44  *** nielsm has quit IRC
23:27:37  <milek7> i guess most people went to sleep
23:27:49  <peter1138> Weak.
23:41:26  <peter1138> (since C++20)
23:41:29  <peter1138> Damn, can't use that :(
23:47:36  <supermop_Home> IM DESIGNING A DONUT KIOSK
23:47:45  <peter1138> Oo
23:47:51  <supermop_Home> in autocad
23:47:55  <supermop_Home> so caps
23:48:17  <supermop_Home> rather I designed it, now just annotating some elevations
23:48:32  <supermop_Home> while it renders in rhino in the background
23:59:05  <supermop_Home> hmmm
23:59:32  <supermop_Home> 90 minutes into this rendering I see that the espresso machine does not have it's material applied

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