Log for #openttd on 1st March 2019:
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00:00:13  <peter1138> Happy new month!
00:00:55  <Eddi|zuHause> dangit, i missed the moment to congratulate my brother for his non-birthday
00:01:18  <drac_boy> heh its still feburary here :-s
00:01:45  <Eddi|zuHause> well, there'll be a real birthday next year
00:02:14  <Eddi|zuHause> we hope, since it's so hard to find factors of big numbers.
00:09:42  <Samu> got the crash test results
00:10:21  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick commented on pull request #7302: Change: make crash chance at short runway independent of plane crash …
00:12:41  <Samu> the cheat description is wrong now
00:13:25  <Samu> "Jetplanes will not crash (frequently) on small airports"
00:13:39  <Samu> they won't crash at all now
00:14:32  <Samu> oh wait, nvm
00:14:42  <Samu> only for plane_crashes = 0
00:16:58  <Samu> this means in multiplayer servers, large airplanes will always crash even if the setting is none
00:17:05  <Samu> devious
00:17:41  * drac_boy watches samu make a 737 burn into ash? :p
00:18:37  <Samu> it's basically my 1 making into 0
00:19:18  <Samu> "None" perhaps needs renaming then?
00:23:09  <Samu> what about those guys who actually want a real "non"
00:23:12  <Samu> what about those guys who actually want a real "none"
00:29:12  <Eddi|zuHause> what about those people? they can either use a NewGRF that sets all planes to be "small", or they can enable the cheat in addition to setting at 0
00:29:42  <Beerbelott> That's counter-intuitive
00:29:43  <Eddi|zuHause> or alternatively, a NewGRF that sets all airports to be "large"
00:30:04  <Beerbelott> Setting at 0 has an implicit meaning... which is not the case here
00:30:18  * drac_boy would love to see a 737 land at the dirt runaway on the small airport :-p
00:31:53  <Eddi|zuHause> Beerbelott: everybody important i know already believed that that's what the setting already meant
00:33:26  <Eddi|zuHause> i also just learned that the crash chance depends on the aircraft's top speed as well, as the chance is rerolled every tick that the plane is above taxiing speed
00:33:48  <Samu> in multiplayer you can't cheat
00:37:12  <Samu> None needs renaming now
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00:37:50  <Samu> there are some AIs that were actually checking this setting to decide whether to buy large airplanes for small airports
00:37:54  <Samu> rip
00:38:36  <Samu> i think AIAI
00:38:41  <Samu> or DictatorAI
00:39:22  <drac_boy> have fun with airplanes and empty birthdays anyway .. off here
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00:48:14  <Samu> i hate newgrfs being the solution to problems :|
00:53:22  <Eddi|zuHause> it's not an empty birthday. it's a nonbirthday
00:53:29  <Eddi|zuHause> as in, one that doesn't exist
00:55:56  <Samu> no, doesn't look like it's AIAI, must check DictatorAI
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01:31:31  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 updated pull request #7270: Introduce CMake (and removing all other project-related code)
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01:43:09  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on pull request #7270: Introduce CMake (and removing all other project-related code)
01:46:07  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN commented on pull request #7086: Change #6173: Update SDL driver to use SDL 2.0
01:46:29  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick commented on pull request #7298: Fix multiplayer emergency save
02:03:09  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nikolas commented on pull request #7086: Change #6173: Update SDL driver to use SDL 2.0
02:03:17  <Beerbelott> Eddi|zuHause: Thx to ur xkcd link, I navigate from one to another, stumbled upon and ended up watching/reading about Rayleight scattering, colour perception, light polarization theories and applications.....
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03:03:38  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 approved pull request #7225: Add: Various AI/GS functions that may be useful.
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03:30:36  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] stale[bot] commented on pull request #7094: Fix #7088: Retrieve an appropriate name for a non-existant AI/GS when displaying a textfile
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03:35:04  <supermop_Home_> yp
03:35:05  <supermop_Home_> yo
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04:46:51  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nikolas updated pull request #7086: Change #6173: Update SDL driver to use SDL 2.0
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06:32:02  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on pull request #7298: Fix multiplayer emergency save
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06:36:47  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on pull request #7286: Add #2155: newheightmapgame command
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06:42:01  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on pull request #7225: Add: Various AI/GS functions that may be useful.
06:43:29  <andythenorth> o/
06:43:44  <nielsm> and now off to work, bye again!
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07:17:43  <peter1138> ok
07:38:09  <andythenorth> why are running costs so high on the coop server
07:38:11  <andythenorth> it's weird
07:38:21  <andythenorth> setting is 'low'
07:38:39  <andythenorth> but Horse run costs are 3x what I get locally with 'medium'
07:45:47  <peter1138> Well
07:46:31  <peter1138> inflation is on
07:46:55  <peter1138> Apparently it is impossible to make money with it on, but it seems not.
07:47:18  <andythenorth> so it is
07:47:26  <andythenorth> haven't used that for years
07:47:37  <andythenorth> Horse Feature: Works With Inflation
07:47:46  <andythenorth> Lies!
07:55:40  <andythenorth> yeah inflation nerfed all my freight trains
08:02:52  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN dismissed a review for pull request #7225: Add: Various AI/GS functions that may be useful.
08:02:53  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN updated pull request #7225: Add: Various AI/GS functions that may be useful.
08:03:04  <Eddi|zuHause> with inflation for 170 years,, running costs are about 5 times higher relative to income
08:11:05  <peter1138> Yeah it's not be 170 years year :)
08:11:08  <peter1138> *yet
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08:56:46  <peter1138> *been
09:01:12  <planetmaker> moin
09:01:43  <planetmaker> hangars need a "sort by size" filtering. For on small airports I don't want to build big planes
09:01:58  <planetmaker> and I have to read each plane's text to know whether it is small or big
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09:03:01  <peter1138> Hmm.
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09:10:14  <andythenorth> really?
09:28:31  <Eddi|zuHause> i agree
09:29:25  <Eddi|zuHause> a similar step would be, in a train depot, to only show electric engines
09:30:00  <Eddi|zuHause> not sure how to make that sensibly usable with newgrf railtypes
09:33:21  <peter1138>
09:33:46  <peter1138> What does this achieve?
09:34:02  <peter1138> (And why is there a giant table with no other notes in the omments...)
09:34:13  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Eddi-z commented on pull request #7302: Change: make crash chance at short runway independent of plane crash …
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09:37:55  <Eddi|zuHause> how do i link a to revision/hash?
09:40:47  <peter1138> Just write the hash. Full or abbreviated, it will work it out.
09:41:05  <Eddi|zuHause> ah, ok
09:45:04  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Eddi-z commented on pull request #7302: Change: make crash chance at short runway independent of plane crash …
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10:02:03  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Eddi-z commented on pull request #7302: Change: make crash chance at short runway independent of plane crash …
10:02:55  <Eddi|zuHause> i hope that makes it a bit clearer what everyone wanted to achieve
11:01:20  <peter1138> So you change "plane crashes: none" to be "plane crashes: none except large aircraft on small airports"
11:02:06  <Eddi|zuHause> something like that, yes
11:02:54  <peter1138> And samu just adds that as an additional option.
11:02:59  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm a bit hesitant on that, because it feels like too wordy for the settings list
11:03:01  <peter1138> But you also increase the chance.
11:03:23  <peter1138> (for reduced)
11:03:30  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
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11:55:11  <andythenorth> hmm
12:03:15  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] GabdaZM commented on pull request #7250: K-d tree data structure for spatial lookups
12:15:22  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Berbe commented on pull request #7286: Add #2155: newheightmapgame command
12:20:06  <peter1138> Hi.
12:20:10  <peter1138> Nearly lunch time.
12:20:35  <andythenorth> that was ages ago
12:21:33  <peter1138> Well... not fo me.
12:22:03  <peter1138> +r
12:32:23  <peter1138> I ate my mini-salad.
12:39:24  <andythenorth> I ate wheat-free toast
12:39:26  <andythenorth> it's crap
12:39:29  <andythenorth> I had some more
12:39:30  <andythenorth> still crap
12:40:22  <peter1138> I've got a Lancashire oven bottom muffin. Which is actually just a soft white roll...
12:41:35  <peter1138> Crazy Lancastrians, I guess.
12:57:10  <andythenorth> FIRS Furniture Factory, what does it produce though?
13:02:38  <peter1138> Sales.
13:03:03  <andythenorth> what cargo unit for that? o_O
13:03:20  <andythenorth> and is the plural DFS?
13:03:22  <andythenorth> or DFSS
13:21:35  <Eddi|zuHause> don't make the cargo label IKEA :p
13:22:22  <planetmaker> 5 pieces = 1 furniture :P
13:26:02  <andythenorth> IKEA is a great label
13:26:29  <andythenorth> anything that starts "don't..." is hard to resist
13:26:47  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, i relalized :p
13:29:21  <planetmaker> it definitely would be a cargo label which is remembered easily
13:31:12  <andythenorth> it is a scandi economy also
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14:05:40  <Eddi|zuHause> looks like space engineers isn't going to run under wine :/
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14:11:47  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick commented on pull request #7302: Change: make crash chance at short runway independent of plane crash …
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14:26:39  <Samu> omg these warnings are so pointless!
14:26:41  <Samu>
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14:33:02  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick updated pull request #7290: Change: Disallow taking over AI companies in multiplayer
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14:33:49  <supermop_work> yo
14:35:03  <Eddi|zuHause> no. they're not pointless. you just don't understand them
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14:40:53  <Samu> I lost count how many times I've had to fix parenthesis
14:41:02  <Samu> and none of them changed anything
14:46:25  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick updated pull request #7193: Fix #6468: Load correct version of AI as specified during the time of its save.
14:48:46  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick updated pull request #7190: Fix #7188: AI instance crash when reloading AI in a server, and an AI…
14:51:10  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick updated pull request #7184: Change: Distribute cargo to multiple stations or industries
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14:56:37  <peter1138> They certainly do.
14:57:11  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on pull request #7286: Add #2155: newheightmapgame command
14:58:13  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick updated pull request #7167: Reset ai gs non anchored settings
14:59:04  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on pull request #7286: Add #2155: newheightmapgame command
14:59:29  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN commented on pull request #7286: Add #2155: newheightmapgame command
15:03:44  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick updated pull request #7104: Fix #5405: Aircraft could route to depots outside their range
15:05:17  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN commented on pull request #7290: Change: Disallow taking over AI companies in multiplayer
15:05:32  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick updated pull request #7094: Fix #7088: Retrieve an appropriate name for a non-existant AI/GS when displaying a textfile
15:08:33  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick updated pull request #7078: Feature: Raise a corner of land automatically when building aqueducts
15:10:24  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick updated pull request #7073: Feature: Generate lock ready rivers upon world generation
15:16:19  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN commented on pull request #7073: Feature: Generate lock ready rivers upon world generation
15:19:28  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick commented on pull request #7290: Change: Disallow taking over AI companies in multiplayer
15:23:42  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on pull request #7250: K-d tree data structure for spatial lookups
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15:24:13  <Alberth> hola
15:24:18  <nielsm> yow
15:26:50  <Samu> the variable names?
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15:27:03  <Samu> I have no other way
15:27:17  <Samu> what kind of names do you want
15:27:46  <Samu>
15:28:50  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN commented on pull request #7250: K-d tree data structure for spatial lookups
15:29:03  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/website] Eddi-z updated pull request #58: Monthly Dev Post of March 2019
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15:29:21  <Eddi|zuHause> probably a bunch of mistakes in that...
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15:31:57  <peter1138> What is it even for?
15:32:23  <peter1138> Hmm.
15:32:28  <Eddi|zuHause> dunno, but lots of times people told us "there's nothing going on because there's no news on the website"
15:32:43  <peter1138> So it's going to the website. I didn't realise it was still the first one, as it's... now March.
15:33:33  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, we should probably finalize it and publish it... anyone volunteering? :p
15:34:01  <peter1138> 7141 is likely to make 1.9 I think.
15:34:16  <peter1138> LOL
15:34:23  <peter1138> No, that's an error. It's not 7141.
15:35:45  <Samu> how would you name my variables?
15:35:49  <peter1138> It's 7147, Eddi|zuHause
15:36:16  <peter1138> Not like that Samu.
15:36:32  <Gabda> hi
15:36:49  <Eddi|zuHause> uups
15:37:35  <Samu> :|
15:37:40  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/website] Eddi-z updated pull request #58: Monthly Dev Post of March 2019
15:37:58  <Samu> the screenshot with the variable positions won't help?
15:38:01  <peter1138> Mmm, Oreo cookie...
15:38:33  <Samu> because I don't know of a better way to name them
15:39:20  <Eddi|zuHause> so who wanted to do that merged-PR-list? LordAro?
15:39:43  <Samu> tile_delta_middle_delta_side
15:39:58  <Samu> tile_2times_delta_middle_delta_side?
15:40:05  <Samu> this big names?
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15:44:51  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/website] Eddi-z updated pull request #58: Monthly Dev Post of March 2019
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15:52:06  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/website] Eddi-z updated pull request #58: Monthly Dev Post of March 2019
16:00:23  <Beerbelott> Oh OK I got something about command-line switches... loading compressed files is not supported
16:00:32  <Beerbelott> like u can do through the GUI
16:00:50  <Beerbelott> Can't those behaviours be unified?
16:01:03  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on pull request #7250: K-d tree data structure for spatial lookups
16:03:30  <Eddi|zuHause> Beerbelott: huh? any more details?
16:08:57  <Gabda> nielsm: it seems like a nice idea
16:09:29  <Gabda> this doesn't require much caching, and can calculated really fast
16:09:37  <Gabda> *be
16:10:05  <nielsm> I just had to check one thing:
16:10:38  <nielsm> if a town builds roads that are nearer to another town, and you then build a road stop on those roads, which town will the road stop belong to?
16:10:44  <nielsm> answer: owner of the road
16:11:57  <Beerbelott> Eddi|zuHause: I downloaded ~/.openttd/content_download/scenario/Fallout_123_game_map_scenario-4.tar
16:11:57  <Beerbelott> When trying to load that w/ CLI switch -g, it failed
16:12:10  <LordAro> Eddi|zuHause: didn't we decide a merged pr list wasn't worth it?
16:12:14  <Beerbelott> uncompressing the \.scn file in the tar archive did the trick
16:12:24  <Eddi|zuHause> LordAro: i haven't been part of that conversation
16:12:42  <Beerbelott> Although, ingame, you can load the scenario from the GUI file explorer w/o uncompressing it
16:13:33  <Eddi|zuHause> Beerbelott: the game treats the tar like a directory and scans the files inside the tar, so you need some syntax to specify the file inside the tar
16:13:52  <Beerbelott> Ah
16:14:23  <Eddi|zuHause> dunno if that exists
16:14:50  <Eddi|zuHause> nielsm: was that always the case, or is that some change you did?
16:15:01  <Beerbelott> Tried openttd -g Fallout_123_game_map_scenario-4.tar/Fallout_1_2_3_T_Game.scn to no avail
16:15:11  <nielsm> Eddi|zuHause I did not touch that
16:15:51  <Eddi|zuHause> Beerbelott: there are probably subfolders inside the tar
16:17:13  <Beerbelott> Oh yeah right I'm dumb
16:17:17  <Beerbelott> ofc there is
16:18:26  <Beerbelott> Well Fallout_123_game_map_scenario-4.tar/Fallout_123_game_map_scenario-4/Fallout_1_2_3_T_Game.scn failed too, and this time the path, considering the tar archive as a dir, is correct
16:18:39  <LordAro> Eddi|zuHause: well, if you feel like picking through the list for notable stuff, is a list of all PRs merged since 02/01
16:18:39  <nielsm> yes this is profitable :D
16:18:56  <LordAro> (in markdown form)
16:19:15  <Beerbelott> Oh my! Found it!
16:19:23  <Beerbelott> You need not to specify the tar
16:19:33  <Beerbelott> openttd -g Fallout_123_game_map_scenario-4/Fallout_1_2_3_T_Game.scn works
16:19:49  <Beerbelott> but that means you know the contents of the tar archive...
16:20:48  <LordAro> one imagines that if you can use commandline flags, you can also run `tar tf foobar.tar`
16:20:49  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, but a tar file could contain more than one scenario. while bananas downloads won't, the game could happily process manually created ones
16:21:16  <Eddi|zuHause> so you can't just substitute a tar file with the files in it
16:21:33  <Eddi|zuHause> and expect the game to do any sane thing with it
16:23:05  <Beerbelott> the tar contains:
16:23:22  <Beerbelott> I tried to use the name in the title, did not work
16:23:33  <Beerbelott> sad, since that's sth available from console
16:23:52  <Beerbelott> could help to have a similar interface on cli as on console
16:24:05  <Beerbelott> at least for file lists
16:28:53  <nielsm> Gabda: I just looked into what it would take to have "nearest town" in that concept show which station would be joined if one would (without using Ctrl distant join), and it looks like it would be very annoying to do :)
16:29:12  <nielsm> (so if you had any ideas in that direction, probably just leave them at the idea stage)
16:29:39  <peter1138> So, er...
16:30:04  <Eddi|zuHause> LordAro: that list collapses to about 8 pretty quickly
16:31:39  <Eddi|zuHause> <LordAro> one imagines that if you can use commandline flags, you can also run `tar tf foobar.tar` <-- you're forgetting
16:35:12  <peter1138> I guess k-d tree is always going to be slower than direct map storage.
16:35:34  <nielsm> peter1138 yeah, it's still a tree traversal
16:35:50  <nielsm> it mainly wins on memory usage and possibly being cheaper to rebuild
16:35:58  <Gabda> nielsm: until your kd-tree is not merged, I don't plan to build anything on top of that
16:36:28  <peter1138> 100ms is quite a lot :/
16:36:33  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Berbe dismissed a review for pull request #7286: Add #2155: newheightmapgame command
16:36:34  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Berbe updated pull request #7286: Add #2155: newheightmapgame command
16:36:52  <nielsm> Gabda, this could be built on top of just CalcClosestTownFromTile and nothing else :)
16:37:38  <peter1138> Hmm, I should add town roads to my catchment visualisation?
16:37:56  <Gabda> but 100 ms is lot only if you have to repeat it often
16:38:48  <Samu> Santa Margarida de Terrabaixa South?
16:39:05  <Samu> if it's Terrabaixa, it doesn't need South
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16:39:38  <Samu> baixa already implies it's towards south
16:39:48  <nielsm> there's about 2100 tiles visible on a 1920x1080 display at default zoom
16:40:22  <nielsm> Samu tell that to the Catalan town name generator
16:40:46  <Gabda> i corrected the number of tiles, as the multiplication sign disappeared from my post
16:40:51  <nielsm> (I'm using it because it generates very long names)
16:41:03  <Samu> ah, it's part of the town name
16:41:06  <Samu> nevermind then
16:41:15  <Gabda> wheb max zoomed out,it is about 2x256x256
16:41:43  <nielsm> 131k tiles
16:41:52  <nielsm> ouch :)
16:41:52  <Gabda> yes
16:42:19  <peter1138> I should get myself a 5K screen to test on ;)
16:42:30  <nielsm> so looking up for an 81 tile area (9x9) would be essentially zero cost
16:43:24  <Gabda> yes, you could spam that
16:43:59  <Gabda> even if you have to calc the borders there
16:44:26  <Eddi|zuHause> LordAro: do we have a changelog anywhere that we could link?
16:45:36  <Alberth> usually next to the latest release
16:46:50  <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: but is that uptodate for the betas?
16:47:23  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick commented on pull request #7073: Feature: Generate lock ready rivers upon world generation
16:48:32  <Alberth> I'd expect up to date to the release :)
16:48:48  <nielsm> this sounds sick :D
16:49:05  <nielsm> result of a sound canvas not properly reset after something else messed with some parameters
16:49:22  <Alberth> Unless someone is now tracking updates of the betas, I don't think it exists
16:49:25  <nielsm> especially past the 1 minute mark
16:51:14  <Gabda> so t is a bug or a feature? :)
16:51:22  <Gabda> *is it
16:51:44  <nielsm> working as designed :P
16:52:13  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/website] Eddi-z updated pull request #58: Monthly Dev Post of March 2019
16:52:48  <nielsm> also working as designed, I think:
16:52:57  <Eddi|zuHause> i guess the bridge thing isn't in the beta?
16:53:43  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/website] Eddi-z updated pull request #58: Monthly Dev Post of March 2019
16:54:07  <Eddi|zuHause> we might need to rephrase that a bit, any suggestions?
16:54:55  <nielsm> ponies? participate yourself?
16:55:58  <Eddi|zuHause> nielsm: always delegate the work to someone else :p
16:56:08  <supermop_work> haha
16:56:25  <LordAro> Eddi|zuHause: beta3 changelog is uptodate with beta3, yes :)
16:57:37  <Eddi|zuHause> well, i guess i failed at the delegation part today :p
16:59:43  <peter1138> So...
16:59:52  * LordAro wonders if the nightly changelog being blank is known about
16:59:54  <peter1138> I should delegate my patch making to someone else.
17:00:01  <peter1138> Then I'd be able to approve them ;p
17:00:20  <peter1138> Also, it's 17:00
17:00:27  <Eddi|zuHause> no, it's 18:00
17:00:32  <peter1138> See you on the other side.
17:01:29  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/website] LordAro updated pull request #58: Monthly Dev Post of March 2019
17:01:32  *** Gabda_ has joined #openttd
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17:02:44  *** ChanServ sets mode: +v glx
17:03:29  <Samu> who's an expert at giving variable names?
17:03:35  <Samu> need help
17:04:26  *** Progman has joined #openttd
17:04:32  <Eddi|zuHause> that is some strange comma placement...
17:05:46  <LordAro> Eddi|zuHause: the idea is that the bit in the middle could be removed and the sentence still works
17:05:49  <LordAro> like parens
17:06:02  <Samu> in the meantime I'm testing ship penalties
17:06:19  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, it just feels very... unnatural
17:06:55  <Eddi|zuHause> like you're adding a breathing pause to a place that doesn't really need one
17:07:24  <Eddi|zuHause> maybe my breathing pattern is off :p
17:07:28  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/website] LordAro updated pull request #58: Monthly Dev Post of March 2019
17:07:56  <LordAro> Eddi|zuHause: yeah, commas probably aren't necessary at all
17:08:03  <LordAro> (parenthetical commas, if you want to google)
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17:08:33  <nielsm> nasty tricks?
17:09:12  <Samu> wow
17:09:23  <Samu> peter1138, I think the 90 degrees penalty need to be smaller
17:09:26  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm not sure if any grammar guides agree with me, but i always think of "and if" as more like a single functional word, so i have some hesitations to put a comma between them
17:10:57  <Samu> ship wants to go to depot
17:11:04  <Samu> after exiting docks
17:12:52  <Samu> unless that's the intention for 180 degrees
17:13:04  <Samu> avoids two 90 degrees altogether
17:13:12  <Eddi|zuHause> with my comma placement the hierarchical structure of the sentence feels more like "A A A A, B B B B, C C C C" whereas yours is more like "A A A A B, C C C, B B B B"
17:14:38  <Samu> ah i see
17:14:42  <Samu> you mimic rail penalty
17:16:47  <Samu> i'm testing 500
17:17:07  <Samu> makes 1 90 degrees turn, then two 45 turns
17:17:51  <Samu> with 600 it completely avoids 90 degrees, takes the long path with 45 turns
17:23:34  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick commented on pull request #7289: Add: Configurable ship curve penalties (YAPF)
17:28:36  <Eddi|zuHause> nielsm: that is some truely deep magic
17:29:35  <glx> it's clearly magic indeed
17:34:03  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on pull request #7271: Cleanup: Ships can always make 90° turns (it's even realistic)
17:34:04  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh closed pull request #7271: Cleanup: Ships can always make 90° turns (it's even realistic)
17:34:39  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on pull request #7289: Add: Configurable ship curve penalties (YAPF)
17:35:22  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/DorpsGek-github] pyup-bot opened pull request #24: Scheduled monthly dependency update for March
17:35:24  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/DorpsGek-github] pyup-bot commented on pull request #22: Scheduled monthly dependency update for February
17:35:25  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/DorpsGek-github] pyup-bot closed pull request #22: Scheduled monthly dependency update for February
17:36:16  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/DorpsGek-irc] pyup-bot opened pull request #19: Scheduled monthly dependency update for March
17:36:18  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/DorpsGek-irc] pyup-bot commented on pull request #18: Scheduled monthly dependency update for February
17:36:19  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/DorpsGek-irc] pyup-bot closed pull request #18: Scheduled monthly dependency update for February
17:45:44  <Samu> Gabda, nielsm are you doing anything about signs? AIs spam signs and they can slow down a lot when too many
17:46:40  <Gabda> nielsm's kdtree will solve that
17:46:49  <Samu> oh cool
17:47:07  <Samu> they create and remove really often
17:47:20  <Samu> the so called pathfind debug signs
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17:48:01  <nielsm> well I'm not sure if it will be a performance hit to have them added/removed from the viewport sign index all the time
17:48:08  <nielsm> since that might trigger some bad rebuilding
17:51:51  <Samu> AIAI is a good sign spammer if you enable AI debug settings and set up all debug signs options
17:52:32  <LordAro> TrueBrain: you should fix up those DorpsGek_II dependencies :p
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17:55:30  <Samu> just having the Sign list window open, i get slowdowns
17:56:14  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 updated pull request #7270: Introduce CMake (and removing all other project-related code)
17:56:36  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh requested changes for pull request #7261: Add: Road vehicle path cache.
18:11:48  <Samu> where do i post sign slowdowns?
18:11:52  <Samu> issue?
18:12:25  <nielsm> it's no more an issue than having a ton of stations is an issue
18:12:56  <nielsm> either makes drawing viewports slow because of viewport signs
18:13:05  <Samu> waiting for the ai to create 64000 signs
18:13:08  <Samu> then i post
18:15:40  <Samu> hmmm loks like it wont reach 64000
18:18:01  <Samu> 4.2 seconds stall each time is added
18:18:13  <Samu> ok 61700 signs, ought to be enough
18:21:58  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick opened issue #7303: AI Sign List slowdowns the more signs there are
18:23:57  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick commented on issue #7303: AI Sign List slowdowns the more signs there are
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18:28:55  <FLHerne> Eddi|zuHause: If this is about "and if all goes according to plan", LordAro's commas are right :P
18:29:27  <Eddi|zuHause> FLHerne: i didn't question that, but they still feel strange
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18:29:51  <FLHerne> The original ones are definitely wrong, but would be also-right if the second one was dropped
18:29:58  <FLHerne> English :D
18:31:11  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm fairly sure i'd be having the same discussion if it were a german text
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18:46:37  <Samu> found the problem! QSortT(this->data, this->items, compare, desc);
18:46:46  <Samu> this is where the stalls come from
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18:51:09  <Samu> gee 70 seconds in debug mode
19:02:51  <peter1138> Samu, 17:09 < Samu> peter1138, I think the 90 degrees penalty need to be smaller
19:03:01  <peter1138> Samu, suggest a value :)
19:03:24  <Samu> 500 looked about right, i posted a screenshot in the topic
19:03:24  <peter1138> It probably wants to be smaller.
19:04:00  <peter1138> 57897 signs... yeah that'll be slow.
19:05:10  <Samu> FormatString is what's slowing donw
19:05:20  <Samu> then some Deque
19:05:25  <Samu> whatever deque is
19:05:50  <peter1138> deque is a stack-type thing.
19:06:08  <Samu> called by formatstring
19:06:30  <peter1138> Hmm. Possibly for the colour changing stuff.
19:08:05  <Samu> 95% of the time
19:08:46  <Samu> GetString(buf, STR_SIGN_NAME, lastof(buf));
19:08:54  <Samu> on SignNameSorter
19:09:54  <Samu> doesn't look like it's QSortT afterall
19:09:55  <peter1138> What if you close the sign-list window?
19:10:04  <Samu> then it runs fine enough
19:10:17  <peter1138> SignNameSorter is called by QSort, so...
19:12:10  <Samu>
19:12:17  <nielsm> what if QSortT is replaced with std::sort
19:12:31  <nielsm> (it can't be replaced 1:1 but it should be possible)
19:14:08  <peter1138> Which AI created that many signs?
19:14:22  <peter1138> I think maybe we should just limit it :p
19:15:31  <Eddi|zuHause> 5000 trucks, 5000 trains, 5000 signs?
19:15:59  <Samu> AIAI
19:16:05  <Eddi|zuHause> (per company)
19:16:06  <Samu> while pathfinding
19:16:33  <Samu> the limit is 64000
19:16:37  <Samu> it nearly reached it
19:16:42  <Samu> on the first train route
19:16:56  <peter1138> Are they debug signs?
19:16:58  <Samu> yes
19:17:06  <peter1138> Oh.
19:17:12  <peter1138> So who cares?
19:17:18  <Samu> hmm :(
19:18:44  <peter1138> Placing signs is going to slow down the pathfinding massively.
19:18:52  <nielsm> how about if the number of signs that would be on the list is larger than (example) 5k then just don't sort it and don't offer the option to sort it
19:19:16  <Samu>
19:19:23  <Samu> AIAI likes debug signs
19:19:42  <peter1138> nielsm, I'm thinking something like I did for station catchment...
19:19:54  <peter1138> nielsm, keep the sorted list around and just do a sorted insert.
19:20:37  <nielsm> do we need to add global signal event handlers? "OnNewSignCreated" etc
19:20:56  <peter1138> No what have invalidate window data for that.
19:20:57  <peter1138> *we
19:21:22  <nielsm> how will you know which sign was new then, to insert it in the gui's sorted list?
19:21:23  <peter1138> Also that window should not bother doing anything if it's rolled up.
19:21:40  <peter1138> invalidate window data takes parameters :)
19:22:16  <peter1138> You invalidate a specific class/type of window with whatever user data you want.
19:22:35  <peter1138> I think it only takes an integer, but only because nobody ever needed to extend it.
19:22:41  <peter1138> But that's enough for a sign id
19:25:14  <Samu> sorted insert, interesting
19:25:26  <Samu> what about the opposite?
19:25:28  <Samu> sorted remove?
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19:25:53  <nielsm> if the list is sorted then you can do a binary search in it to find the item index to remove
19:26:54  <nielsm> peter1138: have you fixed the circling road vehicles yet? :)
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19:29:14  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on pull request #7261: Add: Road vehicle path cache.
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19:30:02  <peter1138> nielsm?
19:30:36  <nielsm> see the review I left on your rv path caching
19:30:39  <peter1138> Ok
19:30:45  <peter1138> That's weird.
19:31:26  <peter1138> However I just put some sausages in the oven, and I'm now nursing a beer.
19:32:18  <nielsm> I should get myself some fluids too
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19:34:09  <peter1138> That sign window does a sort periodically. I guess that's probably not necessary.
19:36:12  <Samu> gonna try release build instead, brb
19:38:43  <peter1138> Damn it, FFWD is too fast :-)
19:40:39  <Samu> it continues to be FormatString and Deque stuff
19:40:52  <peter1138> That's not the real problem.
19:41:16  <nielsm> FormatString is because it's.... preparing text for being displayed
19:41:18  <nielsm> surprise!
19:41:19  <peter1138> They are using CPU time purely because they are being called a lot during the sort operation.
19:41:37  <peter1138> Not display, just sorting :-)
19:41:46  <peter1138> Display is perfectly fine.
19:42:00  <peter1138> Maybe if you have a big enough screen to see 50,000k signs in the list at once...
19:42:08  <peter1138> Even then, that's probably okay.
19:42:42  <peter1138> I wonder if it's possible to just sort on the sign text and ignore the format string.
19:42:55  <peter1138> I mean, signs don't have a default value do they?
19:43:16  <nielsm> nope
19:43:24  <nielsm> strings can only have user entered text
19:43:29  <nielsm> signs can*
19:43:45  <nielsm> and there is no localisation on them
19:44:20  <peter1138> That should be a lot faster.
19:44:39  <peter1138> I'll try it quickly :-)
19:45:14  <nielsm> but why is it using a deque?
19:45:31  <Samu> it's inside FormatString
19:45:44  <nielsm> oh the deque is used by formatting?
19:45:50  <peter1138> nielsm, colour changes are stack-based.
19:45:54  <nielsm> ah
19:45:58  <peter1138> It's a very small stack.
19:46:04  <peter1138> But because it's called so often...
19:46:13  <nielsm> but it's a stack not a queue
19:46:23  <nielsm> so a vector would better
19:46:33  <peter1138> std::stack is a stack
19:46:51  <nielsm> that's an adapter for something else isn't it...
19:47:03  <Samu>
19:47:12  <peter1138>         std::stack<const char *> str_stack;
19:47:14  <Samu> Deque_alloc
19:47:28  <peter1138> std::stack is implemented with a std::deque, I think.
19:47:31  <nielsm> but the main use case for std::deque should be if you need to add/remove elements from the front of the collection
19:47:53  <peter1138> It's a stack...
19:47:59  <nielsm> exactly
19:48:05  <nielsm> hence deque sounds really wrong
19:48:10  <peter1138> Sorry, what are you getting at?
19:48:35  <peter1138>
19:48:36  <nielsm> use use std::vector::push_back(), std::vector::back() and std::vector::pop_back()
19:48:45  <peter1138> ^ it uses std::deque internally.
19:48:59  <nielsm> I don't understand why STL does that then
19:49:40  <nielsm> when going down to micro-optimisations, vector is usually preferable to deque
19:50:39  <peter1138> You can change std::stack to use a std::vector
19:50:41  <nielsm> maybe try std::stack<T, std::vector<T>>
19:50:42  <nielsm> yeah
19:51:13  <peter1138> Annoying, I can't get AIAI to pathfind :p
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19:51:32  <peter1138> Only 962 signs
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19:52:37  <peter1138> Ah, it doesn't use trains unless there's industries...
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19:54:42  <peter1138> Hmm, I wonder how colour codes will affect it.
19:54:58  <peter1138> Can there even be sigh codes in a sign?
19:55:57  <peter1138> Okay, I need to turn off lto :-)
19:57:39  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN opened pull request #7304: Codechange: Need need to buffer and format sign strings, they are C-style strings to start with
19:57:42  <peter1138> Samu, ^^ try that.
19:57:57  <peter1138> Erm, that should be NO need. ..
19:58:42  <peter1138> Of course, Samu is probably engrossed in trying to find out why FormatString is so slow...
19:58:50  <peter1138> Samu, Samu Samu
19:58:59  <peter1138> These sausages smell nice.
19:59:04  <peter1138> Hickory smoked :-)
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20:02:56  <nielsm> okay so there _is_ a default sign name
20:02:59  <nielsm> which is STR_DEFAULT_SIGN_NAME
20:03:08  <nielsm> and it will be used if sign->name is NULL
20:03:55  <nielsm> it's probably worth ignoring that case
20:05:53  <nielsm> or perhaps worth handling it specially...
20:06:42  <peter1138> Yeah.
20:06:54  <peter1138> FormatString will be copying characters and validating stuff everywhere.
20:06:56  <nielsm> what I really do not get is this:
20:07:09  <nielsm> it formats a string using the format string that just copies a raw string
20:07:27  <nielsm> so those three lines are an extremely expensive way of doing strdup
20:07:38  <nielsm> or just strncpy
20:07:52  <peter1138> Fix it ;)
20:07:57  <peter1138> Not with those functions though.
20:08:18  <peter1138> There's a specific custom one for copying strings that uses lastof rather than lengthof.
20:08:26  <nielsm> strecpy
20:09:48  <nielsm>
20:09:54  <peter1138> Ok, it's slowing down now
20:09:54  <nielsm> it used to be strecpy
20:09:57  <peter1138> 20k signs.
20:10:25  <peter1138> Who the heck did that...
20:10:56  <peter1138> Of course, samu running it in a debug compile wouldn't help.
20:11:06  <nielsm>
20:11:08  <peter1138> I'm seeing ~20ms with 21k signs.
20:11:24  <nielsm> I don't understand what that has to do with needing everything to go through FormatString
20:11:43  <nielsm> oh... resolving ScriptText objects?
20:11:45  <nielsm> uh
20:11:52  <nielsm> it can be weird objects like that?
20:15:24  <peter1138> 26k signs, 23ms
20:16:24  <peter1138> Hmm, a sorted insert for strings could keep a cache of where to start for specific characters.
20:17:28  <peter1138> Oops, the AI crashed :-)
20:21:48  <nielsm> ping TrueBrain, do you remember why this is necessary?
20:22:13  <nielsm> (it's only been 7 years and change!)
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20:26:07  <andythenorth> yo
20:26:13  <supermop_work_> yo yo yo
20:35:51  <peter1138> Yeah, mega-stalls with the sign list open without the 'fix'
20:36:38  <peter1138> If there are control codes in the string, they will still be there when it is formatted, right?
20:36:48  <peter1138> Otherwise they'd have no effect, heh.
20:37:03  <peter1138> I guess we should handle the null case.
20:40:48  <nielsm> ok, looking further through this I really don't see a way e.g. a sign name could become a non-real char pointer
20:41:24  <nielsm> ScriptSign::SetName specifically has whatever Text object it receives decoded into a plaing C string
20:54:19  <LordAro> nielsm: looks like it might be a find & replace thing
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21:11:23  <TrueBrain> nielsm: poeh, daring question there :D
21:13:32  <TrueBrain> I think it was to avoid styles leaking through, but ...... not really sure :P
21:15:36  <TrueBrain> not even sure why it is in that commit, tbh
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21:19:24  <Eddi|zuHause> so, did we release the blog post yet?
21:19:42  <LordAro> 2.5 hours left until the file needs to be renamed :p
21:20:15  <nielsm> I should maybe get derail valley?
21:20:26  <peter1138> Maybe.
21:22:29  <peter1138> Hmm, strange, the pathfinder has a trackdir for a tile which has no junction on it.
21:22:54  <TrueBrain> so merge it, and release a new version of the website (after you seen the merge land on staging and it looked fine, ofc)
21:23:06  <TrueBrain> nielsm: I got the logs around that time, let me read what we wrote about that patch ..
21:23:32  <Eddi|zuHause> don't forget to add a new temp file (that we linked to at the bottom)
21:23:47  <TrueBrain> after the merge, yes
21:24:49  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/website] LordAro updated pull request #58: Monthly Dev Post of March 2019
21:25:21  <andythenorth> pipemania? o_O
21:26:19  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/website] LordAro updated pull request #58: Monthly Dev Post of March 2019
21:27:44  <peter1138> Got a test GRF for #7147?
21:27:47  <TrueBrain> nielsm: even after reading the conversations around that time, nobody asked anything about that part :P It was part of a 40-patch commit
21:28:15  <TrueBrain> seems I had issues with a few things: UTF-8 (seems unrelated), AI that did {} in strings (pissing off the formatter), and "getting it to work"
21:28:23  <TrueBrain> so yeah, no clue :D I tried!
21:28:27  <peter1138> It doesn't look obivously wrong, and it's not "wrong" just pointless, I think :-)
21:29:21  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/website] LordAro approved pull request #58: Monthly Dev Post of March 2019
21:29:24  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN commented on pull request #7304: Codechange: No need to buffer and format sign strings, they are C-style strings to start with
21:29:28  <LordAro> i'm happy with it now
21:30:17  <TrueBrain> my personal IRC logs only date back to sept 2012 .. so I don't know if there were any PMs about this :P
21:30:36  *** Gabda has quit IRC
21:32:19  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/website] TrueBrain merged pull request #58: Monthly Dev Post of March 2019
21:34:53  <peter1138> Oh dear, this camembert has pink patches... might be time to throw it...
21:35:47  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/website] TrueBrain opened pull request #65: Add: Monthly Dev Post of April 2019
21:37:47  <TrueBrain> nielsm: the more I think about it, the more I think it was to avoid control codes to leak through; possibly not for all entries, but things like President Name, etc. But I might be completely off here :) For sure it is a weird commit, but given it was in a chain of 40, I can imagine some shortcuts were taken :D
21:37:53  <TrueBrain> owh well, enough cycles spend on this :D
21:38:22  <TrueBrain> <- holy crap, that news article looks ugly
21:38:41  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/website] LordAro updated pull request #65: Add: Monthly Dev Post of April 2019
21:38:47  <nielsm> to me it looks almost opposite, like it would allow user-entered strings to contain insert codes
21:38:53  <LordAro> TrueBrain: oof
21:39:31  <TrueBrain> nielsm: the RAW_STRING thingy should prevent that, not? Owh well, no clue :P
21:39:35  <TrueBrain> talking shit, properly
21:39:49  <peter1138> Does RAW_STRING strip stuff, or just copy?
21:39:59  <peter1138> Okay, this brie is looking better. It's just white.
21:40:12  <TrueBrain> LordAro: even if I remove the screenshot and give the space to the post, it looks VERY ugly
21:40:32  <TrueBrain> but better, at least
21:40:44  <TrueBrain> well, it would look like this:
21:40:44  <TrueBrain>
21:40:49  <TrueBrain> possibly we just need a <more> button
21:41:31  <LordAro> mm, not great
21:41:36  <LordAro> site redesign, anyone? :D
21:41:51  <TrueBrain> yeah ...
21:42:08  <TrueBrain> for now, what we can do, is to add a "read more" button, where we only have the first alinea on the front page?
21:42:20  <LordAro> that'll help, i think
21:42:35  <peter1138> Uhm... is it okay to stuff a trackdir and a tile into a 32bit int?
21:42:57  <nielsm> tile is 24 bit
21:43:02  <nielsm> TileIndex
21:43:13  <nielsm> afaik
21:43:14  <peter1138> Until someone wants 8192x8192 maps ;(
21:43:37  <LordAro> peter1138: for what purpose? :p
21:43:45  <peter1138> road vehicle path cache.
21:44:06  *** Supercheese has joined #openttd
21:44:22  <peter1138> Needed to detect if the path is invalid.
21:44:36  <peter1138> Hmm, maybe I could store segment length.
21:44:42  <LordAro> i feel bitstuffing shouldn't be done unless there's a demonstrateable performance increase
21:44:59  <Eddi|zuHause> sounds over the top to me
21:45:15  <peter1138> LordAro, it's saveloaded, and can only be a single value unless I rewrite SLDEQUE.
21:45:41  <LordAro> oh, we're talking saveload here, rather than "at runtime" ?
21:45:46  <peter1138> Both?
21:46:00  <peter1138> It's a value that is saved.
21:46:17  <peter1138> The saveload code doesn't handle a struct at this point.
21:46:17  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think the runtime layout should be dictated by saveload
21:46:45  <LordAro> i think this is a separate question, but why are the caches saveloaded? why aren't they just regenerated on load?
21:46:49  <Eddi|zuHause> i'd rather update the saveload code
21:47:09  <peter1138> LordAro, server would need to invalidate its caches when it saves, which is a bit weird.
21:47:15  <Eddi|zuHause> LordAro: map might have changed?
21:47:45  <LordAro> doesn't have to invalidate them? just doesn't save them in the first place
21:47:57  <peter1138> Huh?
21:48:08  <LordAro> why would it need to invalidate its caches?
21:48:09  <peter1138> It has a cache, if they're not saved, it has to invalidate its local copy.
21:48:13  <glx> TrueBrain: is it ok to add some debugging messages in cmake to see the detected includes and libraries in the CI ?
21:48:16  <peter1138> It's a pathfinder result.
21:48:25  <Eddi|zuHause> LordAro: after loading on the client, the client must recreate the exact same cache state as the server.
21:48:41  <Eddi|zuHause> LordAro: since the situation is different now, that cannot be guaranteed
21:48:53  <LordAro> ah, right
21:49:44  <peter1138> It's more important for RVs than ships, as well.
21:49:52  <peter1138> Towns are adding/removing road pieces all the time.
21:49:56  <TrueBrain> glx: of course; no need to ask these things :)
21:50:35  <glx> oh and I opened some PRs on your branch ;)
21:51:43  <peter1138> Hmm, actually
21:52:02  <Samu> oh, sorry, I was dinner
21:52:04  <peter1138> I could make RoadVehPathCache be a struct containing two std::deques.
21:52:22  <dwfreed> /99/99
21:52:25  <dwfreed> whoops
21:52:47  <TrueBrain> glx: I noticed
21:52:53  <Eddi|zuHause> really, i'd rather work on extending the saveload
21:52:59  <TrueBrain> owh, we didn't mention CMake in dev post
21:53:01  <TrueBrain> pfft
21:53:13  <LordAro> TrueBrain: well, it's still on staging... :p
21:53:19  <LordAro> quick!
21:53:41  <TrueBrain> meh, for next month
21:53:46  <TrueBrain> possibly we can even ask people to test it by then
21:53:55  <Eddi|zuHause> that sounds like a better idea :p
21:53:56  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/website] TrueBrain opened pull request #66: Add: "read more" link for large posts on the frontpage
21:53:57  <TrueBrain> first, this
21:54:18  <TrueBrain> and someone needs to enable: remove whitespace on save
21:54:21  <TrueBrain> as seriously
21:54:24  <TrueBrain> wasting bytes like that
21:55:15  <LordAro> oh nice, it's built into jekyll
21:55:23  <LordAro> i was wondering where the functionality was :p
21:55:45  <TrueBrain> Jekyll has a lot of stuff .. just not everything is very easy to find :)
21:55:50  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/website] LordAro approved pull request #66: Add: "read more" link for large posts on the frontpage
21:56:12  <Samu> ok let me test
21:59:09  <TrueBrain> glx: no clue if you see the comment I placed in
21:59:19  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/website] TrueBrain merged pull request #66: Add: "read more" link for large posts on the frontpage
21:59:34  <peter1138> Hmm, need to make a new test save now :)
21:59:40  <TrueBrain> glx: but I cannot believe if that commit really works :P
21:59:54  <LordAro> peter1138: we definitely need to collect these test saves together
22:00:43  <TrueBrain> glx: ah, it indeed doesn't work :P Bad glx, not testing before pushing :D
22:01:14  <TrueBrain> glx: one thing that might be nice to know: it is often better to remove your build directory with cmake; because of its cache, otherwise you might not spot amistake you made, because your cache fixes it :)
22:01:21  <TrueBrain> just as a "good to know" :)
22:02:22  <peter1138> LordAro, it's only because I changed the saveload now. Two deques so that I don't have to bitstuff.
22:02:26  <peter1138> A little ugly.
22:02:54  <peter1138> I'll probably revert it once I figure out the correct incantation of yapf.
22:02:58  <Eddi|zuHause> how do i see that  "read more" link in action?
22:02:58  <LordAro> it was more of a general comment
22:03:06  <LordAro> Eddi|zuHause: wait until staging updates
22:03:30  <Eddi|zuHause> does it take this long?
22:03:38  <LordAro> ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
22:03:39  <TrueBrain> clearly, it does
22:03:42  <TrueBrain> I mean ..
22:03:45  <LordAro> "Platform/MINGW64_NT-10.0 to use this system, please send your config file to so it can be added to cmake"
22:03:48  <LordAro> well that's disappointing
22:03:51  <TrueBrain> but yeah, it just hit staging
22:04:02  <TrueBrain> LordAro: :o
22:04:10  <TrueBrain> update cmake? :P
22:04:17  <LordAro> literally just installed it :p
22:04:23  <TrueBrain> okay, it is a lot better now (frontpage)
22:04:32  <TrueBrain> installing doesn't mean you cannot update it
22:04:38  <TrueBrain> you might have installed a VERY old version :P
22:05:04  <TrueBrain> everyone okay with staging like this?
22:05:25  <LordAro> :+1:
22:05:37  <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause?
22:06:03  <LordAro> TrueBrain: nope, still on 3.13
22:06:45  *** synchris has quit IRC
22:06:46  <Eddi|zuHause> it's probably fine, the first paragraph could have been a bit more elaborate with that in mind, but... it's good enough i guess
22:06:55  <TrueBrain> for next month! :)
22:07:00  <LordAro> ah i see, i've installed the wrong version
22:07:00  <TrueBrain> tagged
22:07:04  <TrueBrain> will be on production in a jiffy
22:07:18  <TrueBrain> possibly good to post this on twitter and tt-forums too
22:07:21  <TrueBrain> (CC planetmaker)
22:08:06  <Samu> wow must faster indeed
22:08:23  <TrueBrain> that's what she said
22:08:29  <Samu> gonna wait for 60k signs
22:09:15  <Samu> already sensing the stalls at 9k signs, 60 ms
22:10:40  <Samu> 170 ms at 20k signs
22:10:48  <Samu> that's 6 fps :(
22:12:15  <peter1138> Yes, it's still slow, but it's much faster.
22:12:56  <TrueBrain> planetmaker: possibly nice if you can put on twitter? :D
22:13:03  <TrueBrain> someone else can make a tt-forums post :)
22:13:12  <TrueBrain> @all: :)
22:13:52  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 updated pull request #7270: Introduce CMake (and removing all other project-related code)
22:14:15  <Samu> it's becoming unbearable at 37k signs
22:14:24  <Samu> mouse movement ... :(
22:15:48  <peter1138> Yeah so the issue is sorting it is slow, just because sorting is slow.
22:15:58  <glx> LordAro: it works here I just use 'cmake -G"MSYS Makefiles" ..' from the mingw terminal
22:16:28  <Samu> isn't there insert sort?
22:16:34  <Samu> ok
22:16:37  <nielsm> Samu is that a debug or a release build? because I imagine a debug build can make a recursive algorithm like quicksort quite bad
22:16:41  <LordAro> glx: yeah, i just had to install the mingw version, rather than the msys version
22:16:53  <Samu> release build, but still attached to visual studio
22:16:54  <LordAro> and then make a small modification as i don't have timidity installed
22:16:59  <peter1138> Samu, non-rect-catchment has that.
22:17:27  <Samu> let me detatch
22:17:34  <glx> LordAro: the timidity error is fixed now (was a mistake in my previous commit)
22:17:40  <LordAro> hehe
22:17:42  <peter1138> But it is probably not appropriate.
22:17:59  <peter1138> That's a std::set, which may well be slower.
22:18:12  <Samu> didn't make a difference
22:18:18  <peter1138> Doesn't matter there, no town has 37k stations near it :p
22:18:36  <peter1138> Someone will probably prove me wrong there.
22:19:19  <LordAro> glx: version string being broken is known, right?
22:19:20  <Samu> oh snap, pathfinder found a way
22:19:22  <Samu> no more signs
22:19:31  <glx> on the CI ?
22:19:32  <TrueBrain> LordAro: "broken", how lovely verbose :)
22:19:42  <glx> because locally it works for me
22:19:44  <Samu> oh, still pathfinding, without deleting previous signs
22:19:50  <TrueBrain> what if more broke than he knows should be broken? :P
22:19:55  <LordAro> -- Version string: 20190301--gaf88160bf9
22:20:07  <TrueBrain> so on the CI there is no branch; that is known?
22:20:07  <TrueBrain> yes
22:20:08  <TrueBrain> :)
22:20:14  <LordAro> yeah, but this is locally
22:20:19  <TrueBrain> so you are a detached head
22:20:21  <TrueBrain> you peanut
22:20:22  <TrueBrain> :)
22:20:29  <LordAro> oh, so i do
22:20:32  <LordAro> how did that happen?
22:20:42  <TrueBrain> do you really want us to answer that? :D
22:20:51  <glx> because version stuff is a total conversion of based on your work
22:20:58  <TrueBrain> owh SNAP
22:21:04  <TrueBrain> shots fired
22:21:07  <Samu> 52,500 signs atm
22:21:09  <glx> most of it is just a direct copy paste ;)
22:21:19  <LordAro> :>
22:21:23  <TrueBrain> :D
22:22:19  <Samu> 55000
22:22:33  <Samu> poor AIAI
22:23:07  <LordAro> right, there we go
22:23:18  <LordAro> still broken because of SDL, but i can probably manage to fix that myself
22:24:04  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 commented on issue #7303: AI Sign List slowdowns the more signs there are
22:24:08  <TrueBrain> SPAM:
22:24:09  <TrueBrain> GwydToday at 11:20 PM
22:24:09  <TrueBrain> The new NewGRF stuff sounds interesting
22:24:10  <TrueBrain> This section in particular: "This should allow for graphical changes like whether or not pantographs are raised. Ideally, you would not only be able to query the speed limit of the railtype, but a collection of all speed limits currently affecting the train (like bridges, curves, station approach, etc.) and whether the train has reached any of thes
22:24:10  <TrueBrain> e. If you have ideas how to use this in a set, please tell us."
22:24:10  <TrueBrain> So theoretically we could change things about the train based on its speed relative to the speed limit?
22:24:10  <TrueBrain> Like graphics, visual effects etc?
22:25:04  <TrueBrain> Also could you ask if it could query the speed limit imposed by the timetable?
22:25:28  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: I expect answers! :P
22:25:34  <peter1138> Timetables have speed limits?
22:25:36  <LordAro> @seen andythenorth
22:25:36  <DorpsGek> LordAro: andythenorth was last seen in #openttd 1 hour and 14 seconds ago: <andythenorth> pipemania? o_O
22:26:27  <andythenorth> pipemania
22:27:19  <TrueBrain> that is not a helpful answer andythenorth :(
22:27:37  <andythenorth> [I have nothing right now]
22:27:41  <Samu> about 612 ms stalls at 62,600 signs
22:27:44  * andythenorth reading dev post
22:27:48  <Samu> nearly reaching the limit
22:29:04  <Samu> no more stalls, AIAI is mad about not being able to place signs
22:29:23  <Samu>
22:30:19  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 updated pull request #7270: Introduce CMake (and removing all other project-related code)
22:31:33  <andythenorth> I don't see any MMO tank games mentioned there
22:31:43  <andythenorth> we should change that
22:31:52  <TrueBrain> but any clue about Gwyd's question ?
22:32:51  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick commented on pull request #7304: Codechange: No need to buffer and format sign strings, they are C-style strings to start with
22:34:12  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: there's still next month :p
22:34:30  <andythenorth> and a "drive the train" mode
22:34:55  <TrueBrain> I feel like andythenorth is ignoring me :P
22:35:03  <andythenorth> no I just don't know the answer :)
22:35:09  <TrueBrain> so who does! :P
22:35:14  <andythenorth> and I have been a good person for 5 days straight for $reasons
22:35:15  <TrueBrain> bad NewGRF nerd :P
22:35:19  <andythenorth> I am out of good :P
22:35:24  <TrueBrain> 5 whole days?!
22:35:26  <TrueBrain> holy crap
22:35:31  <TrueBrain> also on your dayjob?
22:35:35  <andythenorth> yeah family stuff and work
22:35:38  <andythenorth> both
22:35:42  <TrueBrain> holy mozy
22:35:48  <TrueBrain> I have not been a good boy at work :P
22:35:56  <TrueBrain> I always fail the second minute I am in the office
22:36:25  <Eddi|zuHause> you last that long? :p
22:36:40  <TrueBrain> yeah, the first minute I am picking up a coca cola from the fridge
22:36:43  <TrueBrain> so .. there is that
22:36:48  <andythenorth> ok so changing visual stuff, I don't know how often the vars are updated
22:37:01  <andythenorth> and timetables, I don't understand at all, they're just broken afaik
22:37:24  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: how often are railtype vars updated? o_O
22:37:26  <TrueBrain> ghehe
22:37:36  <andythenorth> when tracktype changes?
22:37:40  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: at least every time the railtype changes
22:38:00  <andythenorth> it's tracktype
22:38:03  <andythenorth> but yeah ok
22:38:06  *** nielsm has quit IRC
22:38:16  <andythenorth> railtypes have railtypes, but vehicles have tracktypes
22:38:21  <andythenorth> because $reasons
22:38:31  <Eddi|zuHause> sounds like the same word to me
22:38:35  <andythenorth> that doesn't catch me out every single time ever
22:38:53  <TrueBrain> SPAM:
22:38:54  <TrueBrain> GwydToday at 11:35 PM
22:38:54  <TrueBrain> I know how it could be used
22:38:55  <TrueBrain> Mainly just the rail speed limit and not speed limits specifically for bridges curves etc
22:38:55  <TrueBrain> In the UK freight trains or trains worked by locomotives (as opposed to multiple units) have lower speed limits in some instances
22:38:55  <TrueBrain> So it could just say like
22:38:56  <TrueBrain> Go a bit less than the speed limit
22:38:58  <TrueBrain> now I am done playing proxy
22:39:09  <andythenorth> yeah, where is Gwyd?
22:39:12  <TrueBrain> Discord!
22:39:16  <andythenorth> oh dear
22:39:22  <TrueBrain> so now you have to andythenorth!
22:39:25  <TrueBrain> you really do!
22:39:30  <peter1138> Just tell them to use IRC.
22:39:32  <andythenorth> do we all do push-to-talk?
22:39:42  <TrueBrain> push-to-talk-to-type
22:39:51  <andythenorth> speak-to-push
22:41:26  *** sla_ro|master has quit IRC
22:42:21  <andythenorth> issues 77, PRs 58
22:42:30  <andythenorth> the crossover gets closer
22:42:33  <TrueBrain> :D
22:42:56  <andythenorth> TrueBrain: give gwy this?
22:43:05  <TrueBrain> he is going to post on the forums
22:43:13  <TrueBrain> I am not your guys monkey :P
22:43:27  <andythenorth> foo
22:43:28  <andythenorth> oof
22:43:30  <andythenorth> yoof
22:43:49  <TrueBrain> yoo
22:43:50  <TrueBrain> ooy
22:44:42  <TrueBrain> proxies the message andythenorth :)
22:45:48  <TrueBrain> peter1138: you are a silly goose :)
22:46:32  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on pull request #7270: Introduce CMake (and removing all other project-related code)
22:46:37  <peter1138> Not really.
22:46:46  <peter1138> So by "our discord" you meant the "reddit discord"
22:47:02  <TrueBrain> I never said "our" or "reddit"
22:47:11  <LordAro> hmm.
22:47:12  <peter1138> Tru.
22:47:12  <TrueBrain> but pm was pretty specific about it being the /r/openttd Discord
22:47:16  <glx> debug message and make verbose help a lot to find what's wrong
22:47:17  <peter1138> I've left now.
22:47:17  <LordAro> TrueBrain: any ideas why it was this way?
22:47:24  <peter1138> I can't be dealing with that  :p
22:47:28  <TrueBrain> :D
22:48:08  <TrueBrain> glx: pro-tip, mark them as TODO with a comment next time :) Means we won't forget removing them ;)
22:48:15  <TrueBrain> and if they help, leave them in for now :)
22:48:21  <glx> sdl is dynamically loaded on windows
22:48:43  <glx> only headers are used, but not linked
22:48:43  <TrueBrain> LordAro: ^^
22:48:54  <TrueBrain> but in more generic terms: don't use SDL on Windows
22:49:00  <TrueBrain> not sure why we support it, tbh
22:49:07  <peter1138> If I'm modifying YAPF code, should I stick to YAPF coding-style? :p
22:49:24  <LordAro> mm, can't remember why i installed it
22:49:27  <peter1138> SDL on Windows does work.
22:49:27  <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: rewrite it with STL :p
22:49:32  <LordAro> to check tick rate, i think
22:50:00  <peter1138> So I fixed the RV path cache, but now it has two std::deques :(
22:50:06  <peter1138> One for trackdir, and one for tile.
22:50:08  <peter1138> It's a bit ugly.
22:50:13  <TrueBrain> LordAro: possibly we should just remove that line in our codebase
22:50:35  <LordAro> TrueBrain: which line?
22:50:40  <TrueBrain> the first link
22:50:58  <TrueBrain> euhm
22:51:01  <TrueBrain> no, it is more complicated
22:51:19  <LordAro> that whole block is only used on windows SDL
22:51:45  <TrueBrain> why do we special case SDL on Windows?
22:51:50  <TrueBrain> why not just do what we do with everything?
22:54:03  <TrueBrain> I am sure there are historical reasons
22:54:08  <TrueBrain> but possibly good to throw those overboard
22:54:26  <TrueBrain> so feel free to add to my branch a change that 'fixed' sdl.h LordAro :)
22:54:34  <LordAro> it's been that way as far back as i can be bothered to trace
22:54:45  <TrueBrain> so lets brake that status quo :)
22:54:55  <TrueBrain> I removed a lot of special casing
22:54:59  <TrueBrain> most of them are undocumented
22:55:11  <TrueBrain> so ... I removed them .. and if we add them again, we add them with comments etc
22:55:42  <TrueBrain> I remember in the old days we shipped SDL.dll next to openttd.exe
22:55:45  <TrueBrain> but it was annoying as fuck
22:56:03  <Eddi|zuHause> do we still have code to support morphos? :p
22:56:12  <TrueBrain> too many
22:56:40  <TrueBrain> a while back I removed a few OSes
22:56:47  <TrueBrain> but it was claimed someone was still maintaining MorphOS
22:57:06  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 updated pull request #7270: Introduce CMake (and removing all other project-related code)
22:57:43  <TrueBrain> andythenorth
22:57:45  <TrueBrain> GwydToday at 11:54 PM
22:57:45  <TrueBrain> Ok walls of text have been put up
22:57:45  <TrueBrain> Also  @TrueBrain in that pull request people talk about 3rd rail sparks
22:57:45  <TrueBrain> Which I've done
22:57:45  <TrueBrain> Tell them
22:57:50  <TrueBrain> Also that discussion was a useful read
22:58:07  <andythenorth> ouch
22:58:07  <andythenorth> highly trained copy-paste artist
22:58:23  <TrueBrain> I AM A MONKEY
22:58:24  <TrueBrain> \o/ :D
22:59:14  <Samu> @calc 3378 / 580
22:59:14  <DorpsGek> Samu: 5.82413793103
22:59:27  <Samu> about 6 times faster
22:59:55  <peter1138> Aw crap, I changed the saveload format again...
23:00:01  <TrueBrain> OWH NO YOU DIDNT!
23:00:05  <LordAro> TrueBrain: turns out i could be bothered to go further back
23:00:07  <peter1138> OWH YES I DID
23:00:08  <LordAro> guess how far back
23:00:13  *** Gwyd has joined #openttd
23:00:30  <Gwyd> Am I... in?
23:00:32  <TrueBrain> LordAro: yeah, so it was from back in the days we shipped SDL.dll next to openttd.exe
23:00:39  <TrueBrain> Gwyd: that's ... what he said?
23:01:18  <TrueBrain> LordAro: so .. burn it with fire?
23:01:27  <peter1138> Gwyd came to the right place, nice.
23:01:47  <Gwyd> great I'm here so I read that pull request discussion and the "train state" thing seems like a more useful thing than being able to query/compare speed limits
23:01:59  <Samu> this is actually useful
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23:02:43  <Gwyd> i.e. asking if the train is accelerating, braking, trying it's best to stay at a speed or stopped (for different reasons)
23:02:49  <LordAro> TrueBrain: willdo
23:03:20  <TrueBrain> tnx LordAro :)
23:03:31  <Eddi|zuHause> Gwyd: yeah, it'll be a bit tricky extracting that information from the code, though
23:03:37  <TrueBrain> glx: seems like the same "bug" happens for freetype. It feels like pkg-config is going wrong here on OSX
23:04:01  <Samu> i can finally name my groups!
23:04:07  <Samu> once that is in
23:04:17  <Gwyd> Eddi: yeah, because a train may be slowing down, but only due to a hill or something
23:04:17  <Samu> without worrying about it being unique
23:04:30  <TrueBrain> glx: tomorrow I will fix the CI for  Linux, so you can peak there too what happens :)
23:04:54  <peter1138> Samu, needs someone to review it.
23:04:56  <glx> well pkgconfig does the same for mingw, but at least all libs are installed in the same location
23:04:58  <peter1138> Alas, nobody cares ;)
23:05:25  <TrueBrain> glx: yeah .. possibly pkg-config for lzo is just broken or something
23:05:32  <TrueBrain> not sure .. needs more debugging :)
23:05:53  <Samu> btw Eddi|zuHause The cheated value is 21, not 0
23:05:55  <glx> for vcpkg detection use find method
23:06:09  <TrueBrain> vcpkg comes with CMake for every package, basically
23:06:12  <TrueBrain> but vcpkg patches it
23:06:13  <peter1138> Okay so the issue with saving the deque content is we have to know, in advance, at compile time, what the data type is.
23:06:15  <TrueBrain> so that is not a real surprise
23:06:19  <LordAro> TrueBrain: currently working out if i can get rid of sdl.cpp/h entirely
23:06:25  <TrueBrain> \o/
23:06:31  <TrueBrain> anyway, time to get some sleep
23:06:35  <LordAro> nn
23:06:36  <peter1138> This is not possible with out sl_desc arrays.
23:06:39  <Samu>
23:06:46  <glx> I meant for VS builds using vcpkg, our script use find method to detect lzo :)
23:06:51  <Samu> someone fix that table :O
23:07:03  <TrueBrain> glx: yes; vcpkg adds cmake files for every package you install
23:07:07  <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: not sure i understand the problem
23:07:15  <TrueBrain> so every library installed with vcpkg, will be found by find()
23:07:28  <TrueBrain> but vcpkg patches that, if the library doesn't support it
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23:07:49  <TrueBrain> glx: owh, you meant the other find()
23:07:53  <TrueBrain> sorry, too many finds in this world
23:07:56  <TrueBrain> that is really odd
23:08:02  <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, because the type of the std::deque is a template, it has to be there at compile time.
23:08:03  <TrueBrain> as it should be a cmake :P
23:08:12  <TrueBrain> owh, findPackage() ofc
23:08:16  <TrueBrain> strange that is not working
23:08:30  <peter1138> But saveload stuff is detached and hidden behind layers.
23:08:35  <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: so the saveload code must know the exact instantiation of the template?
23:08:37  <TrueBrain> anyway, really off now
23:08:41  <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, yes.
23:08:48  <glx> -- LZO_INCLUDE_DIRS: D:/developpement/GitHub/vcpkg/installed/x64-windows-static/include
23:09:04  <glx> it works well :)
23:09:16  <Eddi|zuHause> so it must be put into some header somewhere
23:09:17  <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, the only way is to teach the saveload code about every possible type that we want to saveload.
23:09:24  <peter1138> Some header, yeah, not quite.
23:09:31  <glx> no extra /lzo for VS
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23:10:51  <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause,
23:11:08  <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, each of those SlDequeHelper lines has a specific type.
23:11:50  <peter1138> Hmm, even then I don't think it would work.
23:12:23  <peter1138> Ah, SlSaveLoadConv() would have to know about the datatype.
23:12:48  <peter1138> Although that way it would only work up to uint64.
23:12:57  <peter1138> This saveload system is a bit ... baroque ;)
23:13:05  <Eddi|zuHause> so you need a SL_VAR_SOMESTRUCT and instantiate SlDequeHelper<SomeStruct>?
23:13:53  <peter1138> actually it would just be a custom SlDequeHelper than knows the contents the struct.
23:14:35  <peter1138> So... easier to have either 2 deques, or bitstuff it.
23:15:00  <Eddi|zuHause> i think we need to zoom out one or two levels before seeing how to properly fit this in there
23:15:20  <peter1138> Well there was an alternative :/
23:15:40  <peter1138> Take it out of the sl_desc array and manually handle i.
23:15:41  <peter1138> *it
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23:30:58  <glx> the issue is in lzo source (unofficial mirror, but I check in the official src retrieved by vcpkg)
23:32:15  <glx> can't work with this pkg-config stuff :)
23:34:00  <peter1138> Hmm, so...
23:34:04  <peter1138>
23:34:07  <peter1138> ^^ bitstuffed
23:34:12  <peter1138>
23:34:17  <peter1138> ^^ two separate deques.
23:35:36  <peter1138> ib4 use static arrays
23:35:42  <peter1138> Although actually...
23:36:11  <peter1138> Or is that "inb4"
23:38:04  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN updated pull request #7261: Add: Road vehicle path cache.
23:38:40  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm really unsure about either, but the bitstuffing one seems less future proof
23:39:53  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN commented on pull request #7261: Add: Road vehicle path cache.
23:40:27  <peter1138> Hmm, I could use a union instead ;)
23:40:33  <peter1138> (Joke)
23:41:26  <LordAro> hmm, mouse is very flickery
23:41:31  <LordAro> built & linked though
23:43:23  <Eddi|zuHause> intuitively i think the SLE_DEQUE() stuff needs a nested struct decomposing it into SLE_UINT8/32
23:44:33  <peter1138> Yeah but that's just not possible with how that works.
23:45:09  <peter1138> Hmm, maybe a 3rd way :-)
23:46:37  <glx> LordAro: by default it's a debug buid, unless you configured with -DCMAKE_BUILD_TYPE=Release
23:46:57  <Eddi|zuHause> the whole saveload code screams "REWRITE ME WITH TEMPLATES"
23:47:03  <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, yes.
23:47:29  <LordAro> glx: so the flickery seems to be the win32 video driver, nothing i did
23:47:40  <LordAro> but i definitely don't have debugging symbols
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23:49:21  <drac_boy> hi there
23:50:27  <drac_boy> not sure if its a localized word or not so much but anyway .. are tipper wagons basically flatcars-top or they're rather more dedicated (alike to tankers with minimal/no chassis)
23:50:55  <glx> and it's a dynamic build too, but that's ok for a local build
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