Log for #openttd on 17th March 2019:
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00:19:57  <peter1138> Hmm
00:51:50  <peter1138> Oh
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03:10:59  <Samu> wow, double interface size, separate from text size
03:11:13  <Samu> looks kinda bad
03:11:59  <Samu> I wish stuff could be scaled by 130%, 150%, or so
03:12:14  <Samu> 100% to 200% is too steep
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06:12:43  <Alberth> moin
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07:48:12  <andythenorth> moin
07:49:35  <Alberth> o/
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08:04:55  <peter1138> gu
08:04:57  <peter1138> hi
08:12:57  <utack> hello. does someone know where in the opengfx source i would find the town statue and fountain?
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08:18:01  <utack> sorry, got it: "statuefountain.png"
08:18:23  <peter1138> If only it was all that logical :-)
08:19:00  <utack> it is listed uner /houses/ and not /miscellaneous/, so it is only 50% logical
08:19:19  <peter1138> Hmm, I think that's because they appear in towns.
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08:29:39  <peter1138> "Oil refinery explosion"
08:29:43  <peter1138> Hmm, never seen that before.
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08:42:44  <Wolf01> o/
08:47:21  <peter1138> Damn, regression test fails :/
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08:52:53  <peter1138> Ah, dock removal behaviour. Hmm.
08:58:46  <Eddi|zuHause> <peter1138> Hmm, never seen that before. <-- playing without disasters usually, i presume?
08:58:57  <peter1138> Normally :-)
09:07:34  <andythenorth> New Disasters!
09:08:05  <andythenorth> why do I play with disasters off?
09:08:05  <nielsm> GS disasters
09:08:15  <andythenorth> no disasters, no breakdowns
09:08:23  <andythenorth> then I complain the game is boring and needs GS
09:08:24  <Eddi|zuHause> ufos, mainly
09:08:32  <andythenorth> oh yeah, UFOs are stupid
09:08:53  <Eddi|zuHause> landing in the same spot over and over, way too frequently
09:09:51  <andythenorth> GS disasters will never happen
09:09:55  <andythenorth> like GS-Anything
09:10:06  <peter1138> I better go. 20 minutes to get the start o_O
09:10:21  <andythenorth> ha
09:10:22  <andythenorth> GL
09:31:37  <TrueBrain> <- what of this list do we use that makes us c++11? :D
09:49:06  <Eddi|zuHause> is that an interesting question to ask? when we decided to go C++11, then naturally more and more of these will creep in slowly
09:52:23  <TrueBrain> it is a very interesting question to ask, as nobody can answer it really :D
09:52:33  <TrueBrain> the reason CMake from 3.8 decided to change it in 'meta' packages
09:52:38  <TrueBrain> c++11, c++17, c++20
09:52:57  <TrueBrain> funny how nice an idea sounds, but how impossible it is to roll out :)
09:53:07  <TrueBrain> that dates back from when compilers added 1 feature at the time
09:53:10  <TrueBrain> instead of a whole standard :P
09:53:30  <TrueBrain> more to the point in our case, 'fallback' is not in there, so making MSVC automaticlaly use c++17 is not working :(
09:53:38  <Eddi|zuHause> i think we have different definitions of "interesting" here :)
09:53:40  <TrueBrain> so we need to special case MSVC, because we use a tiny bit of c++17 there :P
09:53:56  <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: that is a you problem, not a me problem :D
09:55:36  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm not understanding the problem you're trying to solve
09:55:54  <TrueBrain> that you don't consider this interesting?
09:55:58  <TrueBrain> that is a you problem, not a me problem :)
09:56:03  <TrueBrain> doesn't need a resolution :)
09:56:04  <Eddi|zuHause> no
09:56:08  <Eddi|zuHause> the msvc problem
09:56:18  <TrueBrain> we use 1 thing from c++17 with MSVC
09:56:23  <TrueBrain> all other platforms are c++11
09:56:29  <TrueBrain> so we had to special case MSVC
09:56:31  <TrueBrain> which annoyed me
09:56:47  <TrueBrain> well, honestly, I dont know if it is a c++17 feature, or that MSVC added it in c++17, and others in c++11
09:56:49  <TrueBrain> I really don't know
09:56:53  <TrueBrain> I just don't like special casing
09:57:01  <TrueBrain> so I found this cxx_known_features
09:57:07  <TrueBrain> and had to laugh how impossible and inpracticle it was
09:57:08  <TrueBrain> that is all :)
09:57:32  <Eddi|zuHause> see, it's not interesting :)
09:57:36  <Alberth> our lord aro will know
09:57:39  <TrueBrain> see, it is a you problem :)
09:57:59  <Eddi|zuHause> if it doesn't solve any problem
09:58:12  <TrueBrain> things are only interesting if it solves problems?
09:58:34  <Alberth> but given that other compilers accept it under c++11, I'd guess msvc is wrong in using c++17
09:59:02  <TrueBrain> wrong or not, it is the life we live in :P
09:59:18  <Alberth> yep :)
09:59:37  <Eddi|zuHause> well, there are interesting things that don't solve problems, but you're already deeply into the "i have a problem" category here
10:00:18  <TrueBrain> so many gcc flags we add .. holy crap
10:00:33  <Eddi|zuHause> hory clap
10:01:07  <TrueBrain> I so want to enable -Werror
10:01:10  <TrueBrain> and /WX
10:01:38  <Eddi|zuHause> that would imply solving all the warnings first?
10:01:53  <TrueBrain> only if you consider passing CI important
10:03:45  <TrueBrain> so .. how am I going to do all the -Ws ... depending on your GCC version, Clang version, etc, some are accepted, others are not
10:03:51  <TrueBrain> do I just try to autodetect that ...
10:04:00  <TrueBrain> or do we hard-code it ..
10:04:27  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] perkel666 opened issue #7377: Day lenght multiplayer not available in options
10:04:34  <Eddi|zuHause> i have a MSVC manual from like 1993
10:04:59  <Eddi|zuHause> it says "Version 1.0"
10:05:59  <Eddi|zuHause> (theoretically i should also have the corresponding installation disks)
10:08:47  <TrueBrain> what a polite way to ask for daylength patch; that is a while ago
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10:14:53  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] perkel666 opened issue #7378: No distance between towns/industries option
10:15:49  * andythenorth BBL
10:15:54  <TrueBrain> wait, you were here?
10:15:55  <TrueBrain> :P
10:15:56  <andythenorth> I will leave the polite reply to someone else :P
10:16:00  <andythenorth> I am watching TV
10:16:07  <andythenorth> I have lost all motivation to make things :P
10:16:28  <andythenorth> and now, kids football :)
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10:20:30  <Wolf01> BBL
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10:24:07  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on issue #7377: Day length multiplayer not available in options
10:24:08  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain closed issue #7377: Day length multiplayer not available in options
10:29:45  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on issue #7378: No distance between towns/industries options
10:40:34  <TrueBrain> we muted warnings that long have been solved .. lol
10:42:50  <Eddi|zuHause> well, we wouldn't know when to unmute them?
10:43:01  <TrueBrain> no, we fixed our code
10:43:10  <TrueBrain> we had a few -Wno, because we did silly things in the code
10:43:16  <TrueBrain> that got fixed .. -Wno didn't get removed :P
10:43:25  <Eddi|zuHause> exactly
10:43:53  <Eddi|zuHause> if the person fixing them wasn't the same as the one who added the -Wno, then why would they think of removing it?
10:44:04  <Eddi|zuHause> or if some time had passed
10:44:08  <TrueBrain> I am down to 2 -Wnos ..
10:45:20  <Eddi|zuHause> probably putting in compiler options near the offending code instead of globally would have been a better idea
10:45:39  <TrueBrain> lol .. icc and gcc want -rdynamic as compile-flag
10:45:43  <TrueBrain> clang only as linker flag
10:46:26  <Eddi|zuHause> aren't we using a configuration system precisely because it should abstract away such differences?
10:46:44  <TrueBrain> it does a lot, but not everything, n
10:46:44  <TrueBrain> o
10:50:30  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] perkel666 commented on issue #7377: Day length multiplayer not available in options
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10:56:53  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on issue #7377: Day length multiplayer not available in options
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10:57:20  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Alberth289346 commented on issue #7377: Day length multiplayer not available in options
11:03:56  <TrueBrain> wow, MSVC with /W4 goes bananas :D
11:04:03  <TrueBrain> WE ARE NOT READY FOR THAT :P
11:05:06  <Alberth> they are actually useful warnings?
11:05:27  <TrueBrain> not really looked at it, but I saw a few: parameter variable unused
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11:05:50  <TrueBrain> which indeed should be a warning, in my opinion; you can mute it if youlike per parameter, but at least you are explicit you didnt want to do anything with that parameters
11:05:56  <Alberth> ah yeah, likely due to inheritance and overriding
11:06:00  <TrueBrain> yeah
11:08:16  <Alberth> these warnings tend to go overboard at some point, and warn for just about everything
11:08:39  <TrueBrain> yup
11:08:41  <Alberth> "Warning: you wrote code that looks like nothing is wrong with it!"
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11:09:15  <Alberth> o/
11:09:37  <andythenorth_> 7378 can be politely closed as ‘newgrf’
11:09:42  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain updated pull request #7270: Introduce CMake (and removing all other project-related code)
11:09:51  <andythenorth_> our pllicy is content, not settings
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11:09:59  <andythenorth_> per openttd wiki
11:10:05  <TrueBrain> andythenorth_: can it be done with NewGRFs, or if we implement it, it could be done via NewGRFs? :D
11:11:05  <TrueBrain> for all we know, he comes with a patch that adds this to NewGRF (if it is not already possible)
11:11:25  <TrueBrain> IT COULD HAPPEN! :D
11:12:41  <andythenorth_> it’s already solved in newgrf spec
11:13:22  <andythenorth_> is DOS officially supported?
11:13:37  <andythenorth_> also is macOS supported?
11:13:48  * andythenorth_ reading README
11:13:51  <TrueBrain> define "supported"
11:14:03  <andythenorth_> no
11:14:04  <TrueBrain> but yes, DOS and MacOS "compile", and we "maintain" that :P
11:15:02  <andythenorth_> website lists the officially supported platforms
11:15:06  <andythenorth_>
11:15:12  <andythenorth_> which is why I ask
11:15:40  * andythenorth_ considering editing a few docs later
11:15:56  <andythenorth_> when bored, do tedious bureaucracy :p
11:16:50  <andythenorth_> I would like to move the goals into gh docs, not lost in a wiki nobody uses :)
11:17:13  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] perkel666 commented on issue #7378: No distance between towns/industries options
11:18:04  <TrueBrain> string.cpp:66:49: warning: format string is not a string literal [-Wformat-nonliteral] <- new warning I get from clang now; not sure
11:18:15  <Alberth> maybe a PR got added :p
11:18:34  <Alberth> interesting TB :)
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11:20:37  <Alberth> warning is a false positive, we're making our own vseprintf
11:21:05  <TrueBrain> Alberth: so we should make it as such, I think. I believe you can .. not sure
11:21:20  <TrueBrain> andythenorth_: you have an URL to the exact spec in NewGRF that allows the distance thing?
11:21:33  <Alberth> officially you would have to re-impement the format parsing (%d  and friends), I think
11:21:48  <andythenorth_> truebrain no
11:21:57  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on issue #7378: No distance between towns/industries options
11:22:00  <andythenorth_> not on this phone anyway
11:22:51  <TrueBrain> meh .. I don't like replying: you can do this with NewGRF, without details :P
11:23:07  <andythenorth_> can do it later
11:23:26  <TrueBrain> and I still don't understand NewGRF :P
11:23:27  <TrueBrain> :D
11:23:34  <andythenorth_> it requires creating an industry newgrf, for all industries wanted
11:24:54  <andythenorth_> newgrf: action 8, action 0, action 1, action 2, action 3, action 4
11:24:56  <andythenorth_> easy
11:25:10  <andythenorth_> where’s the confusion? :p
11:25:11  <TrueBrain> ... :(
11:25:13  <TrueBrain> I feel so dumb :(
11:25:38  <andythenorth_> it’s ok TB we don’t mind :)
11:25:40  <TrueBrain> I guess there is a callback when the game wants to place a town?
11:25:45  <TrueBrain> FU andythenorth_ :P
11:25:50  <andythenorth_> how do I git again?
11:26:16  <andythenorth_> there’s a cb when the game wants to place industry
11:26:19  <TrueBrain>
11:26:22  <andythenorth_> towns are first
11:26:23  <TrueBrain> found it, for industries, I guess :)
11:26:41  <andythenorth_> then arbitrary variables can be checked
11:27:00  <andythenorth_> then placement allowed / disallowed
11:28:06  <Alberth> no worries TB, I fail at newgrf too :)
11:28:34  <andythenorth_> funny what real programmers fail at :p
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11:29:31  <andythenorth_> is it the lack of any arcitectural clarity?
11:29:53  <andythenorth_> or the sense that there was no design?
11:30:17  <andythenorth_> or the seemingly arbitrary collection of actions, props, cbs?
11:30:52  <Alberth> lack of global structure mostly for me
11:31:04  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on issue #7378: No distance between towns/industries options
11:31:06  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain closed issue #7378: No distance between towns/industries options
11:31:21  <TrueBrain> NewGRF has  no architectural anything
11:31:26  <Alberth> everything is a number, so it's impossible to remember
11:31:29  <TrueBrain> it is just .. things .. which happens to work together
11:31:36  <TrueBrain> there is no line, no consistency, no clarity of any kind
11:31:40  <TrueBrain> (sorry, but there really is not)
11:31:53  <andythenorth_> it’s built around “I want to do x to a train”
11:32:01  <TrueBrain> its a runaway train
11:32:06  <Alberth> lol
11:32:14  <andythenorth_> just imagine it’s perl
11:32:15  <TrueBrain> a perfect textbook example of how things can go wrong if you don't have an architect controlling the flow :P
11:32:19  <andythenorth_> or drupal
11:32:30  <TrueBrain> (I might or might not use this in my dayjob as an example .... :P)
11:32:35  <Alberth> I failed at perl too
11:33:01  <andythenorth_> haha
11:33:12  <andythenorth_> well we’re stuck with it :)
11:33:14  <TrueBrain> anyway, that perkel dude does have a point; GitHub is not good for feature requests, but the forums is also shitty
11:33:42  <Alberth> "it does what you think it should do" doesn't work if you have no intuition what it should do in the first place
11:33:51  <andythenorth_> need an ideation tool :p
11:33:58  <andythenorth_> we sell one :p
11:34:11  <Alberth> issue tracker and feature requests are mostly mutually exclusive
11:34:13  <TrueBrain> I do like how "demand" is defined by a thread with no replied for 6 years :P Not sure if that works for you, or against you :D
11:34:26  * andythenorth_ offers TB discount on ideation tool
11:34:27  <TrueBrain> yeah ... I keep hoping GitHub will add something for it
11:34:31  <andythenorth_> 50%
11:34:35  <TrueBrain> andythenorth_: 100% or bust
11:35:06  <TrueBrain> never heard the word ideation before btw :P
11:35:07  <andythenorth_> the thing is that feature requests are near useless
11:35:16  <TrueBrain> but it is a thing, I see (if I google)
11:35:20  <Alberth> s/near//
11:35:44  <TrueBrain> you need a clear vision in which you can put them
11:35:57  <Alberth> but people have an urgue to make them, "Suggestions" forum seems the best to me
11:36:03  <TrueBrain> and some form of KPI to know what is needed
11:36:16  <andythenorth_> so shall we merge the content APIs?
11:36:27  <andythenorth_> gs + newgrf
11:36:32  <andythenorth_> all in squirrel
11:36:42  <TrueBrain> 10+ years ago we tried to make OpenTTD into a generic framework engine, in which OpenTTD happened to be a variant
11:36:45  <TrueBrain> but .. people did not like it :P
11:36:53  <andythenorth_> frameworks :p
11:37:23  <andythenorth_> I am still carrying technical debt from making our main product a configurable framework
11:37:32  <TrueBrain> haha :D
11:37:42  <andythenorth_> which would be flexible to meet commercial demands
11:37:47  <TrueBrain> modular is good, configurable framework ... a bit more difficult to do correctly :D
11:37:48  <Alberth> when you have a clear vision, it's not a feature request any more
11:38:11  <TrueBrain> Alberth: not always true; but it is a lot easier to plot them if they are valid or not
11:38:41  <TrueBrain> a vision could be to make ships a viable way of running your company in OpenTTD
11:38:50  <TrueBrain> tons of feature requests can be applied to that vision :)
11:38:55  <andythenorth_> now we have a monolithic product, with configurable framework tentacles all tbe way through it
11:38:58  <TrueBrain> it is just a lot more clear which fit the bill and not ;)
11:39:04  <andythenorth_> so many abstractions
11:39:05  <TrueBrain> andythenorth_: joy :D
11:39:27  <andythenorth_> the product is what customers actually need and pay for
11:39:31  <Alberth> you graduated for Java university andy :)
11:39:34  <TrueBrain> I always like things like: yeah, our product might be monolithic, but it can do anything we want!
11:39:38  <andythenorth_> shame it’s 5x too big
11:39:50  <andythenorth_> monolithic is fine
11:40:05  <TrueBrain> depends heavily on your market, I found out :)
11:40:14  <andythenorth_> alberth, worse, it’s Plone
11:40:43  <TrueBrain> well, no, it is not the market .. a product should work within a well defined domain
11:40:52  <TrueBrain> or any process, or any component
11:40:56  <TrueBrain> as long as that is the case, everything is fine
11:40:59  <andythenorth_> so we have a web app built in a heavyweight modular cms
11:41:01  <Alberth> hmm, somehow I am not sad I missed that andy :p
11:41:16  <TrueBrain> but what people tend to do with monoliths, is just to plug something from the left, all the way to the right, because the function was there anyway :P
11:41:19  <TrueBrain> there shit goes wrong :D
11:41:55  <Alberth> minimal effort to add a feature
11:42:17  <andythenorth_> anyway newgrf :p
11:42:21  <andythenorth_> also bbl
11:42:23  <TrueBrain> I found out I am a big fan of multitier architecture ( .. one design pattern I can really understand why you want it :D
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11:42:53  <TrueBrain> right, cmake debug flags ... do we really still want debug level 1 till 3 ..
11:45:48  <Alberth> having a debug build (less optimization and keeping symbols) would be useful at least
11:46:17  <Alberth> getting debug output on loading is useful too (for figuring out why something doesn't show up in game)
11:46:17  <TrueBrain> yeah .. trying to figure out what our levels are exactly
11:46:26  <TrueBrain> level 0 = release, sure
11:46:31  <TrueBrain> level 1 = -g -D_DEBUG
11:46:36  <TrueBrain> level 2 = -fno-inline
11:46:38  <TrueBrain> level 3 = -O0
11:46:56  <TrueBrain> CMake normally only has Debug and Release
11:47:28  <Alberth> the max level is perhaps also nice, but quite useless, as it continues spamming the output as the game runs
11:48:06  <Alberth> maybe useful for debugging game execution problems, don't know
11:48:21  <TrueBrain> owh, level 2 does a few more things on GCC online
11:48:25  <TrueBrain> -D_FORITFY_SOURCE=2
11:48:43  <Alberth> can't you give custom CXXFLAGS for cmake?
11:49:13  <TrueBrain> sure
11:49:18  <TrueBrain> but I like to be standard
11:49:22  <TrueBrain> so if they offer Debug/Release
11:49:28  <TrueBrain> do we really want to add more of those flavours
11:49:30  <Alberth> so you can do just 1 debug level, and then a developer can tune that whatever they like
11:49:38  <TrueBrain> that is more my moral dilemma atm :D
11:50:13  <TrueBrain> what if we let them 'tune' that via the CMake way, as in: cmake -DCXX_COMPILER_FLAGS="-O0 -fno-inline" ..
11:50:20  <TrueBrain> (so don't make it an option, but something you can do yourself)
11:50:56  <Alberth> yeah, much simpler, and any developer can write a script with his favorite settings
11:51:29  <Alberth> enabling debug build is however messy in cmake, end-user documentation of cmake is pretty much non-existing
11:51:39  <TrueBrain> yeah, that will be in the README
11:51:50  <TrueBrain> but by default builds are always debug
11:51:54  <Alberth> clearly nobody is actually deploying cmake in his project :p
11:52:00  <TrueBrain> so it is mostly our CF that needs to know this :D
11:52:21  <TrueBrain> also wondering about profiling
11:52:36  <TrueBrain> tempted to say you can do that with cmake -DCXX_COMPILER_FLAGS="-p" yourself
11:52:37  <Alberth> in CI ?  or as option?
11:52:43  <TrueBrain> as developer :)
11:53:06  <Alberth> just mention it in the docs would be fine imho
11:53:39  <TrueBrain> it saves a lot of code in CMakeLists.txt
11:53:43  <TrueBrain> so yeah, lets start there
11:53:47  <TrueBrain> and see what happens :D
11:54:01  <Alberth> at the very least you'd also need to consider what to profile etc, so it's not just "cmake profile" ; run
11:54:30  <TrueBrain> k .. 2 things left to tackle ... -DRANDOM_DEBUG, and LTO
11:54:37  <TrueBrain> I dont know what LTO is, so I have to look that up :)
11:54:49  <TrueBrain> RANDOM_DEBUG ... it is such an unusual thing to do ..
11:55:07  <Alberth> link time optimization
11:55:36  <Alberth> compile does a partial job, linking then combines everything and performs more optimization
11:56:05  <TrueBrain> well, mostly I am a bit confused why it is an option etc
11:56:20  <TrueBrain> but okay .. RANDOM_DEBUG is for me on the same level as debug levels and profiling, so I am going to put that in the README
11:56:31  <Alberth> wit the idea that linking has a better view of how functions are called
11:57:01  <Alberth> random debug in docs I fully agree
11:57:53  <Alberth> don't know what lto does for openttd, if it's significant, it might be nice to add it, or even make it standard for compilers that have it
11:57:55  <TrueBrain> so the LTO .. is that not on by default? I mean ..
11:58:24  <Alberth> not in gcc 5.4 at ubuntu, I found out last week :p
11:59:08  <TrueBrain> GCC only in current OpenTTD ..
11:59:18  <TrueBrain> -flto or -flto=jobserver
11:59:19  <TrueBrain> is added
11:59:20  <Alberth> don't know what the current compiler (8.x) does
11:59:25  <TrueBrain> and -fwhole-program
12:00:33  <Alberth> yes, -flto enables it, -fwhole-program is for saying "this is the entire executable, do it"
12:00:38  <TrueBrain> and all CLFAGS are added to LDFLAGS if you enable lto
12:00:38  <TrueBrain> lol
12:01:18  <Alberth> yeah, linking does compiling then too, so it needs the exact same flags etc
12:02:16  <Alberth> -fwhole-program isn't needed if you use gcc also for linking btw
12:03:39  <Alberth> If you don't add it to the build script I am not sure it's simple to manage, you need to set flags for both the linker and the compiler
12:04:36  <Alberth> on the other hand, likely someone has figured out how to convince cmake doing lto already?
12:04:51  <TrueBrain> that I am looking in now :)
12:04:53  <TrueBrain> for ICC, yes
12:04:56  <TrueBrain> for gcc .. possibly
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12:10:55  <TrueBrain> set_target_properties(openttd PROPERTIES INTERPROCEDURAL_OPTIMIZATION True)
12:11:00  <andythenorth> yo
12:11:03  <andythenorth> proper irc again
12:11:06  <TrueBrain> guess I could apply it on all targets .. but .. strgen .. who cares
12:11:32  <TrueBrain> c++  -flto -fno-fat-lto-objects
12:11:38  <TrueBrain> yeah, it works out-of-the-box, if you have CMake 3.9 or higher
12:11:44  <TrueBrain> otherwise .. it disables LTO :)
12:11:53  <TrueBrain> wow, linking takes a lot longer
12:11:59  <TrueBrain> like .. a lot
12:12:14  <nielsm> just like it does in msvc release builds
12:12:25  <TrueBrain> yup
12:12:35  <TrueBrain> should we only enable it for releases? Or also for debug?
12:13:28  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc opened pull request #7379: Codechange: Use C++11 functions for threading
12:14:07  <TrueBrain> even enables it for clang, which current OpenTTD doesn't :P
12:14:43  <TrueBrain> so I feel a "Remove: DOS support" incoming michi_cc :D
12:15:48  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #7379: Codechange: Use C++11 functions for threading
12:17:59  <michi_cc> Hmm, gcc seems to have a different interpretation of lock_guard
12:21:08  <TrueBrain> funny, CMake already does the -g stuff etc
12:21:38  <andythenorth> so what's the canonical source for OpenTTD docs?
12:21:41  <andythenorth> wiki?
12:21:43  <andythenorth> GH?
12:21:48  <TrueBrain> git
12:21:48  <andythenorth>
12:22:08  <nielsm> what kind of docs?
12:22:14  <nielsm> user's manual?
12:22:18  <nielsm> code documentation?
12:22:42  <andythenorth> project top-level
12:22:51  <andythenorth> 'what is it?'  etc
12:23:48  <andythenorth> to ask the question a different way
12:23:55  <andythenorth> which platforms are supported?
12:23:56  <andythenorth>
12:24:14  <andythenorth>
12:25:04  <andythenorth> or
12:25:10  <andythenorth> what's the canonical way to compile?
12:25:11  <andythenorth>
12:25:24  <andythenorth>
12:27:11  <andythenorth> or
12:27:18  <andythenorth> should bug reports be submitted like:
12:27:19  <andythenorth>
12:27:22  <andythenorth> or
12:27:38  <andythenorth> or simply using the issue template?
12:32:06  <Alberth> what is broken with NML templates?  they seem to have limited use, and people resort to cpp or python
12:33:10  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc updated pull request #7379: Codechange: Use C++11 functions for threading
12:36:16  <andythenorth> Alberth: nml templates? ;O
12:36:43  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain updated pull request #7270: Introduce CMake (and removing all other project-related code)
12:37:00  <andythenorth> if we're talking about same concept...I'll find a link
12:37:46  <Alberth>  at the bottom
12:37:56  <andythenorth> Alberth: they're solvely for realsprites
12:38:09  <andythenorth> they're a dedicated solution to one small problem
12:38:14  <Alberth> which is a totally useful spot for mentioning templates :p
12:38:31  <andythenorth> solvely / solely /s
12:39:25  <andythenorth> do you want me to explain their use case, or are they obvious?
12:39:50  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc updated pull request #7379: Codechange: Use C++11 functions for threading
12:39:51  <Alberth> well, it does text-replacement I think (judging from the explanation), so they would be applicable for more cases
12:40:15  <Alberth> or they don't do text replacement, in which case, yeah, limited use
12:40:43  <Alberth> I understand the sprite template case andy, no need to explain
12:40:46  <andythenorth> ok
12:40:52  <andythenorth> it's just a helper really
12:41:04  <Alberth> just wondering why nobody uses it more widely
12:41:46  <andythenorth> I remember yexo was curious about adding a template language
12:41:57  <andythenorth> but was on the fence about how best to do it
12:42:18  <andythenorth> are the current templates unvalidated?
12:42:30  <andythenorth> if I wanted to use them for general purpose text substitution, they'd work?
12:42:45  <Alberth> if they're just text replacements, I'd guess they are
12:42:49  * andythenorth assumed they'd have a linter to enforce that they're realsprites
12:45:13  * andythenorth sketching bonfire + redesign
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12:48:36  <andythenorth> ok
12:48:39  <andythenorth> so what is OpenTTD?
12:48:43  <Eddi|zuHause> <TrueBrain> c++  -flto -fno-fat-lto-objects <-- does that still count as "english"? :p
12:48:53  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc updated pull request #7379: Codechange: Use C++11 functions for threading
12:49:08  <andythenorth> ^^^ let's assume everyone who answers is probably wrong, but tell me anyway
12:49:46  <TrueBrain> no it does not ;)
12:49:53  <Alberth> indeed, simple example fails with template, so it might be about that one use case only
12:49:55  <michi_cc> Sorry about that update spam, but apparently some things work differently depending on if gcc is doing strict C++11 or C++11 and later.
12:50:03  <Eddi|zuHause> "OpenTTD is a fan-made remake of the classic 90's game 'Transport Tycoon Deluxe'"
12:50:20  <andythenorth> thanks
12:50:25  * andythenorth copy-pastes to a file
12:50:59  <michi_cc> "OpenTTD is supposed to be a fun game for all ages"
12:51:36  <Alberth> s/supposed/aims/
12:51:39  <Eddi|zuHause> optionally include: [originally developed by Chris Sawyer] [bringing it to modern computers] [adding more and more features]
12:52:43  <andythenorth> what are the best bits of OpenTTD?
12:52:45  <Eddi|zuHause> how elaborate do you want it to be?
12:52:50  <andythenorth> so
12:53:05  <andythenorth> I'm *not* trying to do 'marketing' to bring more players into the game
12:53:08  <andythenorth> I don't care aboiut that
12:53:20  <andythenorth> I just want the project docs / website to feel well crafted
12:53:23  <andythenorth> and cared about
12:54:07  <andythenorth> we incidentally have one of the most successful open source games, AIUI
12:54:26  <Eddi|zuHause> * works on modern computers * bigger maps, more vehicles * mod support (NewGRF, Scripts, AIs...) * online multiplayer
12:55:30  <andythenorth> eh I did a pretty objective google search 'best open source games'
12:55:34  <andythenorth> this was top result
12:55:42  <andythenorth> #3
12:55:47  <andythenorth> according to unknown metrics ;P
12:56:22  <andythenorth> #13 here
12:56:22  <Eddi|zuHause> "the 8 must-play-games: [list of 5 entries]"
12:59:42  <andythenorth> #8
13:05:24  <peter1138> hi
13:05:27  <peter1138> that
13:05:29  <peter1138> was cycling
13:05:40  <Eddi|zuHause> but it's raining
13:06:05  <andythenorth> pretty nice here
13:06:09  <andythenorth> sun
13:06:14  <andythenorth> wind
13:06:23  <andythenorth> eh, we get all these nice write ups
13:06:37  <andythenorth> there is a whole world outside of tt-forums griping :P
13:06:48  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: well, that it's still being actively developed after over a decade is a really unique trait in the software world
13:07:21  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: it's called a filter bubble
13:07:31  <peter1138> TrueBrain, I compile with -Werror, it good.
13:08:00  <TrueBrain> sadly, we have some warnings on some targets
13:08:03  <TrueBrain> so the CI won't like that :P
13:08:34  <TrueBrain> but okay .. port first, improve later :)
13:09:13  *** criador15 has joined #openttd
13:09:18  <criador15> hey o/
13:09:21  <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: really, i'd rather have a "if TARGET disable warning X" in the code
13:09:37  <Eddi|zuHause> near where the warning is...
13:09:48  <TrueBrain> near -Wall? Sounds wrong :P
13:09:54  <TrueBrain> either way, port first, improve later :)
13:10:10  <criador15> talking about ottd warning messages?
13:10:22  <criador15> efficience last
13:10:35  <TrueBrain> so we need nforenum and grfcodec for creating openttd.grf
13:11:21  <criador15> i had trouble trying to make a info dialog apear, i just need to use the GSGoal.question() method to make one apear?(using ottd 1.8.0 in GS files)
13:12:55  <Eddi|zuHause> can't we remove openttd.grf from the repo, and package it into the installer separately, maybe with opengfx and some selected AIs as well?
13:13:55  <Eddi|zuHause> like, tutorial and stuff
13:15:09  <Eddi|zuHause> also, if not found, download openttd.grf from bananas (but hide it from normal downloading)
13:15:34  *** criador15 has quit IRC
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13:18:22  <TrueBrain> -- Detecting nforenum
13:18:22  <TrueBrain> -- Detecting nforenum - found
13:18:22  <TrueBrain> -- Detecting grfcodec
13:18:22  <TrueBrain> -- Detecting grfcodec - found
13:18:24  <TrueBrain> easy peazy
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13:19:37  <criador15> alberth you know hot to display dialogs via gs?
13:20:42  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc updated pull request #7379: Codechange: Use C++11 functions for threading
13:23:03  <Alberth> no, I only post goals and news
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13:24:11  *** ChanServ sets mode: +v glx
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13:31:46  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on pull request #7379: Codechange: Use C++11 functions for threading
13:32:44  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc updated pull request #7379: Codechange: Use C++11 functions for threading
13:51:41  <Eddi|zuHause> /usr/include/c++/7/condition_variable:197:55: error: request for member ‘unlock’ in ‘__lk’, which is of pointer type ‘std::recursive_mutex*’ (maybe you meant to use ‘->’ ?)
13:52:12  <Eddi|zuHause> wat?
13:52:18  <glx> michi_cc: in unix.cpp, move the last #endif above the function
13:52:40  <glx> and osx should be happy
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13:53:56  <criador15> planetmaker, the game suport some sort of ´display a dialog with string´ system? and to read player input?
13:54:01  <glx> and that's why we really should try to use comments for #endif ;)
13:54:55  <Eddi|zuHause> criador15: have you looked at what the tutorial does?
13:55:09  <criador15> it dont run well here
13:55:12  <Eddi|zuHause> criador15: it works as both a game tutorial, and a game script tutorial
13:55:34  <criador15> (the dialog in question dont apeared when i tested)
13:55:43  <glx> I think there's a query function
13:57:15  <glx> hmm no only buttons
13:58:56  <criador15> ok, so if i want to make a ´choose a vehicle´ system, it will be using next,previous and ok, and delete update and create the window, right?
14:01:24  <nielsm> that will end up as a bad user experience
14:01:57  <criador15> i know, and you know how to improve that?
14:02:00  <nielsm> GS does not really support any good kind of list selection yet
14:02:32  <criador15> maybe the developer can add that on 1.9.1
14:03:08  <Eddi|zuHause> criador15: no, any development now will have to wait until 1.10
14:03:18  <nielsm> make a story page listing the options and tell the player to put a sign with a specific text/number to select something
14:04:07  <nielsm> signs are basically the only way for a player to send something to GS, that isn't a question box
14:04:31  <criador15> that should work well
14:05:04  <criador15> and if the user tries to troll my make, i can make all vehicle crash :D
14:05:11  <criador15> my GS*
14:05:15  <nielsm> well, no you can't
14:05:21  <criador15> i am kidding
14:05:26  <nielsm> I'm quite sure GS does not have that kind of powers
14:05:50  <criador15> thanks for the info
14:06:06  <glx> GS can give money, and probably take it too
14:06:55  <criador15> where is that function? GSCompany?
14:07:03  <glx>
14:07:42  <criador15> loan is borrow or pay, and bank ballance is the disponible cash in game?
14:08:21  <glx> bank balance is the really available money
14:08:40  <criador15> understood
14:10:58  <glx> ahah a GS can start and stop vehicles
14:11:41  <criador15> yep
14:11:45  <glx> but a GS doing silly things will probably be hated :)
14:12:24  <peter1138> And... back again
14:12:37  <criador15> deppends of the silly things
14:12:42  <glx> like get the list of road vehicles, check if a vehicle is on railroad crossing and stop it there :)
14:12:44  <criador15>
14:13:08  <criador15> then set bank ballance to 0 when the player try to break the GS
14:14:48  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc updated pull request #7379: Codechange: Use C++11 functions for threading
14:15:06  <peter1138> Hmm
14:16:25  <michi_cc> Eddi|zuHause: I have seen a lot more interesting errors during development. Errors with 15 lines of template nonsense are so fun, don't you think? :p
14:16:43  <peter1138> :D
14:16:55  <glx> well templates are always fun
14:17:29  <glx> then you have YAPF using templated templates ;)
14:17:50  <criador15> lol
14:17:56  <andythenorth> until you're templating templates, you're not really playing
14:18:12  <criador15> have you tried to automated templates?
14:19:29  <andythenorth> oof
14:19:39  <andythenorth> templating templates
14:19:59  <andythenorth> including string replacement, where the string is also templated
14:20:06  *** criador15 has quit IRC
14:20:21  <glx> hey it's worse, you do it in python ;)
14:21:06  <glx> and nml
14:21:19  <andythenorth> then nmlc turns it back into python
14:21:23  <andythenorth> then writes it out as grf
14:21:44  <andythenorth> so I use python to template an ingest format for a python programme
14:22:43  <andythenorth>
14:25:28  <michi_cc> Yeah, green checkmark :)
14:26:59  <TrueBrain> michi_cc: gratz! That is .. not bad :D
14:29:20  <LordAro> michi_cc: only 15 lines of errors? those are rookie numbers
14:29:33  <michi_cc> No, 15 lines for one error.
14:29:59  <LordAro> ah yes, that sounds better :)
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14:37:25  <peter1138> sausage and blackpudding,eh?
14:37:42  <LordAro> coffee was decidedly underwhelming though
14:38:03  <peter1138> i didn't bother stopped for elevenses
14:38:44  <peter1138> I basically wanted to get home early so I could fix this multi-tile dock bug
14:38:53  <LordAro> haha
14:39:25  <peter1138> I ruined that by popping out to Tesco when I got home, but never mind.
14:42:55  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on pull request #7379: Codechange: Use C++11 functions for threading
14:44:55  <peter1138> Mmm, IpA
14:44:57  <peter1138> IPA, even
14:45:14  <peter1138> Although it's from a can. But a 6 pack for £2.60 was a reduction difficult to refuse.
14:46:40  *** Samu has joined #openttd
14:48:56  <Samu> hi
14:49:24  <Samu> patch of exile! the game that patches every day
14:49:37  <TrueBrain> except .. it doesn't
14:49:43  <peter1138> Running ai/regression/tst_regression... passed!
14:49:45  <peter1138> That's always nice.
14:50:05  <peter1138> Hmm, now to split this patch up.
14:50:11  <peter1138> Becuase it'll be too big now :/
14:50:42  <TrueBrain> that's .. what she said?
14:51:36  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN opened pull request #7380: Feature: Multi-tile docks.
14:52:51  <peter1138> ShipAI still makes a mess...
14:54:32  <Samu> lol I died
14:54:38  <peter1138> xHmm?
14:54:41  <Samu> in poe
14:54:47  <peter1138> Oh. Boring.
14:55:07  <Samu> overconfidence
14:55:36  <Samu> always thinking i can tank everything
14:56:03  <peter1138> < those depots
14:56:06  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc commented on pull request #7379: Codechange: Use C++11 functions for threading
14:56:21  <peter1138> Also, grey ship hiding underneath the helipad.
14:56:32  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc commented on pull request #7379: Codechange: Use C++11 functions for threading
14:56:46  <glx> peter1138: AI depots ?
14:57:42  <peter1138> Yeah
14:57:51  <peter1138> ShipAI is very... deterministic.
14:58:07  <peter1138> It'll start off with each instance building the same routes.
14:58:17  <glx> yeah, I can't build here ? let's try 2 tiles away
15:00:05  <peter1138>
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15:00:12  <peter1138> Green has a bit of a problem here...
15:00:54  <Samu> :)
15:00:59  *** Wormnest has joined #openttd
15:01:02  <glx> and pink building 2 docks
15:01:07  <peter1138> Nope
15:01:15  <peter1138> The sign is above the land part.
15:01:31  <glx> ha yes signs are offset
15:01:36  <Samu> EnsureNoDockingTile
15:01:39  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc updated pull request #7379: Codechange: Use C++11 functions for threading
15:02:24  <peter1138> Samu, I suspect something like that may be prudent.
15:03:01  <Samu> green was there first, though
15:03:17  <peter1138> Of course, when AIs can be single-tile docks, this problem won't exist.
15:03:41  <TrueBrain> pfew, generating the grf files is nasty .. mainly as those 2 files are inside the source folder, not the binary .. hmm
15:04:10  <glx> set working dir in source ?
15:04:14  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc updated pull request #7379: Codechange: Use C++11 functions for threading
15:04:21  <TrueBrain> it needs a temporary file in the same folder
15:04:27  <TrueBrain> as grfcodec is a shitty tool (sorry, but it is)
15:04:29  <glx> ah that's bad
15:04:42  <glx> copy source files to binary dir then
15:04:50  <TrueBrain> which is very annoying to do
15:05:07  <TrueBrain> but there the complexity is coming in ;)
15:05:22  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc commented on pull request #7379: Codechange: Use C++11 functions for threading
15:05:33  <glx> ah and mingw is broken now :)
15:05:40  <glx> but i know what to fix
15:05:48  <TrueBrain> I love how even our devs are this verbose
15:05:49  <TrueBrain> "broken"
15:05:50  <TrueBrain> ;)
15:05:54  <glx> -rdynamic
15:06:45  <TrueBrain> ah; well, yeah, I will throw a if(WIN32) around it
15:06:48  <TrueBrain> I have some more fixes in the pipeline
15:06:51  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on pull request #7270: Introduce CMake (and removing all other project-related code)
15:06:58  <TrueBrain> too late, I guess :P
15:07:00  <TrueBrain> ghehe
15:07:04  <glx> no it's a comment
15:07:14  <glx> not an updated ;)
15:07:19  <TrueBrain> ah :D
15:07:32  <glx> just pointing to my branch
15:08:49  <glx> configure_file() is nice but some times you end up with generated file being older that source file
15:09:05  <LordAro>
15:09:13  <TrueBrain> what is your clock doing over there?!
15:09:15  <glx> and not recreated because nothing changed
15:09:29  <LordAro> so it doesn't matter?
15:09:53  <glx> well it redo the generation step for nothing
15:10:21  <TrueBrain> so you save an unchanged file?
15:10:28  <TrueBrain> this makes little sense glx, sorry :D
15:10:48  <glx> configure_file() writes the file only if it's different
15:11:19  <glx> but source, or script used to generated can be newer
15:11:53  <glx> and still produce the same output so the generated file is untouched
15:12:35  <peter1138> Bloody vim, why does it fuck up my tabs? :(
15:12:51  <TrueBrain> I have the same issue with VisualStudioCode in 1 file ..
15:12:52  <TrueBrain> annoying
15:13:09  <glx> usually I solve that with a make clean
15:13:27  <TrueBrain> glx: still not sure what you mean, but I m sure Iwill find out or something :)
15:13:44  <LordAro> i get what glx means, i'm just not sure why it's an issue :p
15:14:02  <glx> it's not an issue, it's just annoying
15:15:07  <glx> because regenerating hpp.sq for nothing is not fast
15:15:34  <glx> especially when the result is discarded because unmodified
15:17:05  <glx> but if the files are touched when unmodified it would be worse because that would mean recompiling
15:17:12  <TrueBrain> okay ... next on the agenda ... write CMake that handles #include in a file .. lol ..
15:19:19  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN updated pull request #7380: Feature: Multi-tile docks.
15:19:24  <peter1138> IPA no. 2
15:19:56  <glx> hmm the scripts could OUTPUT a timestamp file and BYPRODUCTS the real output
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15:24:14  <glx> I'll try that for basesets
15:25:33  <peter1138> "Since you are re-building the game" uhhh...
15:25:34  <TrueBrain> "Unknown NFO file version: 1.  Attempting to parse as version 4."
15:25:36  <TrueBrain> promising ...
15:26:19  <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: means you have an invalid grf header? (the // part at the beginning)
15:26:39  <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: yeah .. I added my own header on top
15:26:43  <TrueBrain> but that seems to completely confuse everything
15:26:58  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, it looks like a comment, but isn't :p
15:27:04  <TrueBrain> "A portion of sprite 0 could not be processed."
15:27:04  <peter1138> Ok, shall I consider... newgrf dock spec?
15:27:09  <TrueBrain> okay ... is that bad? is that good?
15:27:19  <TrueBrain> does that always happen?
15:27:25  <Eddi|zuHause> not usually
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15:28:48  <TrueBrain> I love how it does not give details :(
15:29:07  <nielsm> peter1138: if it could allow for "level" docks for canals it might be worthwhile
15:29:17  <nielsm> but I'm not sure how to go about doing it
15:29:39  <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: nforenum?
15:29:44  <TrueBrain> yup
15:29:52  <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: it puts the details into the file
15:29:55  <nielsm> peter1138: do your changes already allow more than one dock in a station?
15:29:55  <Eddi|zuHause> usually
15:30:22  <peter1138> nielsm, yes.
15:30:39  <peter1138> nielsm, newgrf docks is the plan for any more than the default docks.
15:30:49  <Eddi|zuHause> bah, these rivers look all wrong :/
15:30:57  <peter1138> nielsm, by "consider" I mean "consider what I need to do" rather than "should I do it" :)
15:31:04  <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: the NFO is HUGE .. :P
15:31:29  <TrueBrain> how do I find out more?
15:31:34  <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: which grf?
15:31:38  <peter1138> nielsm, my changes also allow docks to be built from just a single tile, or indeed, lots of tiles.
15:31:42  <TrueBrain> both openttd.grf as orig_extra.grf
15:31:48  <peter1138> nielsm, just you can't build that way yet :)
15:34:13  <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: about 6k lines?
15:34:41  <TrueBrain> 5161
15:35:01  <nielsm> peter1138: my thought is making a tilelayout with an "anchor" tile (which one you point to with the mouse), having elevation and water-ness requirements on each tile in the layout, and water tiles in the layout can be marked as docking positions
15:35:07  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, i just "cat *.nfo | wc -l"
15:35:16  <nielsm> and each tile participating in the layout must have all four rotations available
15:35:39  <nielsm> I guess you may need to manually select rotation for some layouts?
15:36:05  <TrueBrain> hmm .. it really is my cmake works that only throws this error
15:36:08  <TrueBrain> lets figure out why ..
15:36:11  <peter1138> Seems overcomplicated.
15:36:28  <peter1138> Docking positions are automatic, they are adjacent to any dock tile.
15:36:28  <Eddi|zuHause> where is even the makefile for the extra_grf?
15:36:47  <TrueBrain> objs/extra_grf
15:36:54  <Eddi|zuHause> ah
15:37:58  <TrueBrain> lol .. found the issue :D
15:38:09  <TrueBrain> a ; in CMake is next-entry-in-list
15:38:11  <TrueBrain> we have a ; in text
15:38:13  <TrueBrain> so it becomes 2 lists :D
15:38:20  <TrueBrain> owh boy
15:39:01  <Eddi|zuHause> sounds like you need escapes :p
15:39:19  <TrueBrain> string(REPLACE ";" "\;" NFO_LINES "${NFO_LINES}")
15:39:21  <TrueBrain> exactly what I did :P
15:39:32  <TrueBrain> yeah, now it works \o/
15:39:53  <Eddi|zuHause> so what is the difference between openttd and orig_extra?
15:40:15  <TrueBrain> I was wondering the same, and I am figure that out :)
15:40:24  <peter1138> Hmm, new-object orientation is... odd?
15:40:46  <peter1138> Not sure if it's random or based on cursor position.
15:40:56  <Eddi|zuHause> is there anything in this game that is not... odd? :p
15:41:19  <TrueBrain> we are not really good in .... keeping things tight and clean :)
15:41:49  <peter1138> Pretty sure it's random, but then that would be down to the set I'm using faking orientation.
15:42:04  <Eddi|zuHause> that's probably it
15:42:27  <Eddi|zuHause> they go like "well, you can place it again if it's the wrong one"
15:43:32  * andythenorth tests 7380
15:43:55  <TrueBrain> for example, did you know in extra_grf is a folder rivers, that is copied in the main folder on compiling?
15:44:02  <TrueBrain> so if you name two files the same in 2 folders
15:44:06  <TrueBrain> you won't notice that it doesnt work
15:44:07  <TrueBrain> \o/
15:44:24  <TrueBrain> libpng warning: iCCP: known incorrect sRGB profile
15:44:27  <TrueBrain> lol?
15:44:52  <peter1138> Happens in master :P
15:44:54  <andythenorth> oh yeah that's standard
15:44:58  <TrueBrain> ....
15:45:10  <andythenorth> you can fix it by batch processing them with photoshop
15:45:14  <TrueBrain> and I guess that is the end of it? We simply dont care? :P
15:45:16  <andythenorth> but sometimes something puts them back
15:45:19  <peter1138> Well...
15:45:30  <peter1138> I care but not enough to get around to fixing it.
15:45:31  <andythenorth> I gave up fixing it
15:45:38  <andythenorth> because it tends to recur
15:45:41  <peter1138> Cos when I do that I end up trying to split it all up as well.
15:45:53  <TrueBrain> so call out the person who reintroduces it :P
15:46:08  <TrueBrain> anyway, orig_extra and openttd share almost no files .. except for 3 pngs :D
15:46:11  <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: that's been there literally for years, nobody cared :p
15:46:56  <TrueBrain> so I now have 2 folders, one for each grf
15:47:00  <andythenorth> it's probably upstream in libpng
15:47:00  <TrueBrain> but .. 3 files that are annoying :D
15:47:16  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: it sounds like the pngs are wrong, and libpng informs us about it
15:47:21  <TrueBrain> but that might be my interpertation :D
15:47:22  <peter1138> nielsm, newobjects gui has everything needed, i think.
15:47:52  <Eddi|zuHause> but... we disregard the sRGB profile anyway?
15:48:03  <andythenorth> yeah but libpng cares
15:48:12  <peter1138> It's 8 bpp, I'm not sure why sRGB profiles are involved.
15:48:15  <andythenorth> if these are paletted 8bpp
15:48:23  <andythenorth> what peter said
15:48:25  <andythenorth> faster typing :P
15:48:59  <Eddi|zuHause> i have no clue what an sRGB profile even does
15:49:10  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm assuming it's for colour correction?
15:49:24  <andythenorth> seems that an accepted solution is
15:49:32  <andythenorth> "Use pngcrush to remove the incorrect sRGB profile from the png file:"
15:49:47  <andythenorth> so introduce an additional dependency to fix the bad input
15:50:24  <TrueBrain> so I guess sometimes someone fixes a png, doesnt run pngcrush, and tada?
15:50:30  <TrueBrain> (as it seems to be only an issue for 1 or 2 PNGs)
15:50:34  <Eddi|zuHause> put a check in the pre-commit hook?
15:50:55  <peter1138> Well, not all image editors message with sRGB unnecessarily.
15:50:55  <andythenorth> it seems that it was common to set the whitepoint to D50 where D65 is expected
15:51:10  <andythenorth> this value is baked into some bitmap editor exports
15:51:16  <andythenorth> according to google :P
15:51:27  <andythenorth> so it will just keep on recurring
15:51:36  <andythenorth> how about
15:51:39  <andythenorth> we drop grfcodec?
15:51:47  <andythenorth> I am not even trolling
15:51:54  <Eddi|zuHause> you sound like planetmaker now
15:52:01  <andythenorth> it's a fucking disaster having two ways to make newgrfs
15:52:10  <andythenorth> one is slow and unmaintained
15:52:15  <andythenorth> the other is fast and doesn't need maintained
15:52:24  <andythenorth> but nobody can use it
15:52:32  <peter1138> How about no?
15:52:41  <peter1138> People use both, stop being stupid/.
15:52:59  <andythenorth> LordAro made a non-trolling suggestion yesterday, have OpenTTD read nml or similar
15:53:05  <peter1138> There's GRFMaker as well.
15:53:07  <Eddi|zuHause> "use the right tool for the job" implies there being more than one tool
15:53:16  <peter1138> andythenorth, that wasn't a serious suggesting.
15:53:19  <peter1138> *suggestion
15:53:22  <andythenorth> yes it also implies there are two jobs Eddi|zuHause
15:53:32  <andythenorth> but the job is making a newgrf
15:53:40  <Eddi|zuHause> oh there are definitely more than two jobs
15:54:11  <andythenorth> ok so suppress the libpng warning in stdout
15:54:33  <andythenorth> or add a dependency to strip the iCCP chunk from the PNG image
15:54:49  <andythenorth> or tell every contributor which bitmap editors are officially permitted
15:55:00  <Eddi|zuHause> can't we pass an option to libpng?
15:55:06  <andythenorth> then we can move on and finish cmake :P
15:55:56  <peter1138> NewObject sound effects are a bit mad...
15:56:15  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain updated pull request #7270: Introduce CMake (and removing all other project-related code)
15:56:25  <andythenorth> ok the solution I've found so far is to recompile libpng
15:56:31  <peter1138> Oh, no, that's just 6music.
15:56:32  <TrueBrain> glx: if you have nforenum/grfcodec installed, ^^ would be a nice candidate to test if it also works for you :D
15:56:49  <andythenorth> or don't use libpng 1.6+
15:56:59  <andythenorth> yeah one of the solutions is downgrade
15:57:14  <peter1138> CI check it?
15:58:06  <glx> hmm I may have an old grfcodec version somewhere not in the path
15:58:28  <andythenorth> is imagemagick generally available?
15:58:31  <TrueBrain> hmm .. you have to manually generate it now, it seems .. let me see if I can fix that ..
15:58:56  <Eddi|zuHause> great. when i type "libpng" into google, it autocompletes that to "libpng warning iccp known incorrect srgb profile"
15:59:55  <andythenorth> it's a really common issue
16:00:06  <andythenorth> there are many many proposed solutions
16:00:15  <andythenorth> peter1138: I have ships waiting on 3 tiles :)
16:02:20  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain updated pull request #7270: Introduce CMake (and removing all other project-related code)
16:03:05  <andythenorth> the easiest libpng solution is to ignore it
16:03:40  <Eddi|zuHause> so we just use pngcrush on the files, commit them, and then make the CI fail on people reintroducing the warning
16:03:49  <TrueBrain> CI is no longer picking up my branch .. not sure why not :D
16:03:49  <peter1138> if (IsDockingTile(tile)) return CMD_ERROR;
16:03:51  <peter1138> well...
16:04:01  <peter1138> That stops AIs block each other badly.
16:04:02  <TrueBrain> possibly the 100+ commits ...
16:04:13  <andythenorth> it's pretty discouraging to casual commits
16:04:16  <andythenorth> to get a CI fail
16:04:31  <peter1138> Stops your placing docks next to each other, though.
16:04:35  <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: how is 100 commits a lot?
16:04:40  <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: in 1 PR? :D
16:05:13  <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: i can't imagine nobody ever exceeded that number :p
16:05:15  <peter1138> Some of the buoys this ShipAI builds are... very coast-hugging.
16:05:25  <TrueBrain> sorry, 161 commits
16:05:43  <TrueBrain> now one of the bigger steps to go .... bundles
16:06:11  <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: i dunno what it does with the commits, but i can't imagine any number <1000000 causing any significant problems
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16:06:20  <peter1138> +505-80 :(
16:06:33  <pnda> With what command is the nmlc.exe file generated?
16:07:16  <Eddi|zuHause> pnda: i don't know why we even make such a thing... just tell people to install python...
16:07:31  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: that's definitely one answer :P
16:07:36  <pnda> Well sure, it's a way
16:07:38  <andythenorth> but we do make such a thing
16:07:49  <andythenorth> and I have NFI how nmlc.exe is used
16:07:52  <andythenorth> is it documented?
16:07:52  <pnda> But for the people who just want to have a .exe. What command is it?
16:08:11  <Eddi|zuHause> pnda: tried "make"? :)
16:08:30  <andythenorth> that won't work
16:08:47  <pnda> I only tried build
16:08:52  <andythenorth> yeah I can't find any docs on nmlc.exe
16:09:30  <Eddi|zuHause> it runs "/usr/bin/env python3 build_ext --inplace"
16:09:42  <Eddi|zuHause> and then fails because i have no Python.h
16:10:03  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain updated pull request #7270: Introduce CMake (and removing all other project-related code)
16:10:05  <pnda> That command just creates a .pyd file for me
16:10:05  <TrueBrain> glx: rebase ^^
16:10:05  <andythenorth> do you just double click it pnda ?
16:10:08  <andythenorth> it's a binary?
16:10:14  <TrueBrain> possibly that kills your branch .. I suggest you cherry-pick it
16:10:43  <andythenorth> forums say to do this pnda
16:11:23  <andythenorth> we need a forest fire
16:11:28  <andythenorth> to allow some new growth
16:12:09  <pnda> Uhm that forum post only explains how to use nmlc, to compile nml to a grf.
16:12:22  <pnda> And with this .pyd file which is generated, can I do anything with that?
16:12:40  <andythenorth> TrueBrain: it's nice that README says you are inactive, so free from all responsibility :D
16:13:07  <TrueBrain> yup
16:13:08  <Eddi|zuHause> i can't find any info on the .exe
16:13:11  <TrueBrain> lets keep it that way andythenorth :)
16:13:30  <andythenorth> how many pages listing developers do we need? o_O
16:13:43  <andythenorth> don't answer :P
16:13:49  <andythenorth> "99" would be enough
16:14:17  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain updated pull request #7270: Introduce CMake (and removing all other project-related code)
16:14:29  <TrueBrain> I really need to start squashing this branch ... :D
16:14:49  <andythenorth>
16:14:54  <Eddi|zuHause> i find absolutely no info on the .exe file
16:14:59  <andythenorth> I am really glad to mostly escape being in the contributor lists :D
16:15:05  <andythenorth> I would hate to be listed
16:15:30  <TrueBrain> so many easy jokes to make here ... :D <3
16:15:31  <andythenorth> ha ha LordAro is a contributor not a developer
16:16:08  <andythenorth> if anybody else wants to identify stupidity in the website / GH / wiki / other public docs
16:16:16  <andythenorth> I am actually doing 'measure twice, cut once'
16:16:20  <andythenorth> not just planning a bonfire
16:16:24  <SpComb> burn everything
16:16:40  <andythenorth> no, burn nearly everything
16:16:47  <andythenorth> and put the best bits behind the shed for later
16:17:40  <Eddi|zuHause> pnda: "wine 'C:\Python27\pythonw.exe' 'C:\Python27\Scripts\cxfreeze' nmlc"
16:17:49  <andythenorth> who's our audience
16:17:53  <andythenorth> more people using a binary
16:17:58  <andythenorth> or more people compiling?
16:18:01  <andythenorth> pick one
16:18:27  <peter1138> Everything is either/or, black/white with you.
16:18:28  <pnda> Eddi|zuHause: Will that create a .exe?
16:18:44  <Eddi|zuHause> pnda: i think so
16:18:50  <Eddi|zuHause> not sure why it's python27
16:18:54  <andythenorth> it shouldn't be
16:18:56  <TrueBrain> okay, LTO / IPO is now off for debug builds .. that takes way too long to be practical ..
16:19:00  <andythenorth> nmlc is python3 for a long time
16:19:04  <pnda> Python27 isn't supported anymore
16:19:06  <andythenorth> peter1138: that's a bit black and white :P
16:19:10  <pnda> Python32
16:19:15  <Eddi|zuHause> but that's cxfreeze, not nmlc
16:19:26  <peter1138> vim src/newgrf.cpp
16:19:33  <peter1138> Pretty sure this way lies danger...
16:19:33  <andythenorth> so yeah, if I write / rewrite a 'getting started' section
16:19:38  <andythenorth> does that say 'first compile'
16:19:41  <andythenorth> or 'download'
16:19:42  <andythenorth> ?
16:19:45  <andythenorth> like, who's the audience?
16:19:51  <TrueBrain> make two: developers and players
16:20:06  <peter1138> First explain what the fuck it is.
16:20:13  <Eddi|zuHause>
16:20:24  <peter1138> Too many shitty open source projects start with "this is how you compile this thing which you don't know what it actually does"
16:20:28  <andythenorth> yeah
16:20:34  <andythenorth> ok you gave the answers I wanted :P
16:20:35  <andythenorth> both
16:20:38  <andythenorth> thanks
16:21:22  <glx> TrueBrain: I know how to easily rebase my branches now, so it's not a problem
16:21:26  <TrueBrain> right .. so close, I can almost taste it :) (cmake branch)
16:21:28  <pnda> I am also amazed that nmlc is currently working from any directory, but I don't have it installed it to oPATH.
16:21:35  <SpComb> git reset --soft master && git commit -am "do stuff"
16:21:36  <TrueBrain> glx: good :)
16:22:15  <TrueBrain> owh, right, and I should test ICC
16:22:17  <andythenorth> this is what I had sketched out, probably ultimately a website front page
16:22:18  <TrueBrain> not sure why :P
16:22:22  <glx> git rebase -i --onto <source branch> HEAD~XXX where HEAD~XXX is my commits
16:22:27  <Eddi|zuHause> pnda: maybe it's a different version that is in your path?
16:22:55  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: 3.6 and 3.7 should not be under develop, tbh
16:22:57  <TrueBrain> otherwise, nice :)
16:22:59  <pnda> No there's nothing in PATH
16:23:11  <andythenorth> TrueBrain: yeah, I just don't want a 4th heading, 3 is nice
16:23:20  <andythenorth> 2. probably needs 'multiplayer'
16:23:25  <pnda> There's only a reference to Python37
16:23:26  <TrueBrain> so 3.6 under 1, and 3.7 under 2? :D
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16:23:45  <andythenorth> maybe
16:23:51  <criador15> hello
16:23:55  <TrueBrain> DOUH ITIUUUHHHH
16:24:10  <andythenorth> ok
16:24:24  <criador15> i am trying to make ´local invalid = GSText(GSText.STR_INVALID_NAME);´ use a string as param, right?
16:24:56  <criador15> in english.txt its write this : ´STR_INVALID_NAME           :{YELLOW}{STRING}´
16:25:01  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: there should be a "OH NO!!!" section in 1. which should cover 3.6
16:25:17  <criador15> how i set the param?
16:25:36  <pnda> criador15: is this for NML?
16:25:46  <criador15> this dont worked wekl placa.SetParam(1,"nome não é nulo!");         invalid.AddParam(1);
16:25:51  <criador15> Game Script
16:26:38  <Eddi|zuHause> criador15: AddParam(placa)?
16:27:03  <criador15> lol
16:27:36  <criador15> invalid.SetParam(1,"nome não é nulo!");         invalid.AddParam(1); stil dont output the correct text
16:27:43  <Eddi|zuHause> well, half of the words in there didn't make any sense, so i just randomly guessed something
16:27:54  <andythenorth> oh more depth
16:28:40  <andythenorth> not too worried what goes where yet, but
16:28:59  <andythenorth> I figure both and GH should point to one place that covers most of this easily
16:29:01  <Eddi|zuHause> criador15: the parameter to AddParam should definitely not be "1"
16:29:11  <andythenorth> oh I missed development goals out
16:29:22  <Eddi|zuHause> criador15: also, you probably don't need both SetParam and AddParam at the same time
16:29:37  <andythenorth>
16:29:38  <criador15> eddi|zuHause should it contain the String that will output?
16:30:23  <criador15> this dont work either ´local invalid = GSText(GSText.STR_INVALID_NAME);         invalid.AddParam("nome não é nulo!");´
16:30:32  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: I would consider multiplayer part of the core game tbh
16:31:03  <Eddi|zuHause> criador15: should probably be another GSText.STR_WHATEVER?
16:31:06  <criador15> its output a (instance )
16:31:15  <criador15> hmm
16:31:18  <andythenorth> TrueBrain is MP even a specific topic?  I added it because server listing etc, not sure
16:31:34  <TrueBrain> might be nice to at least mention, yeah
16:31:56  <andythenorth> peter1138: unrelated I tried to make a RiscOS emulator work earlier :P
16:32:03  <andythenorth> yeah, bad project websites
16:33:32  <criador15> still output instance, thats strange
16:33:39  <criador15> wait
16:34:48  <criador15> that way? :´local invalid = GSText(GSText.STR_INVALID_NAME);         invalid.AddParam(GSText.STR_NOT_NULL_NAME);´
16:35:24  <criador15> in english.txt is like: ´STR_INVALID_NAME           :{YELLOW}{STRING} STR_NOT_NULL_NAME           :Name is not null!´
16:36:15  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah something like that
16:36:49  <Eddi|zuHause> also "GSText(GSText.STR_INVALID_NAME, GSText.STR_NOT_NULL_NAME)" might work
16:37:37  <peter1138> Hmm
16:37:49  <peter1138> More JGR NewGRF specs... Hmm.
16:38:09  <criador15> here not worked
16:38:21  <criador15> output (instance)
16:38:31  <Eddi|zuHause> criador15: then your problem is probably elsewhere
16:38:44  <Eddi|zuHause> criador15: how do you output it?
16:38:55  <criador15> GSLog.Info("is "+invalid);
16:39:47  <criador15> output: is (instance: XxXXXXXX)
16:39:54  <pnda> Uh so I have this: handle = open(file, "w") handle.write(file2)
16:40:01  <pnda> But this doesn't write anything to that file
16:40:14  <criador15> which language?
16:40:17  <pnda> python
16:40:24  <criador15> (did you flush or close?)
16:40:24  <Eddi|zuHause> criador15: well, "invalid" is not a string in the squirrel sense
16:40:28  <pnda> yes I closed
16:40:38  <Eddi|zuHause> criador15: it's a description how openttd should assemble the display string
16:40:38  <criador15> invalid is the local var
16:40:50  <criador15> local invalid = GSText(GSText.STR_INVALID_NAME, GSText.STR_NOT_NULL_NAME);
16:40:52  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, the local var is not of "string" type
16:40:58  <Eddi|zuHause> it's of "GSText" type
16:41:02  <criador15> hmmmm
16:41:02  <Eddi|zuHause> can't just print it
16:41:16  <pnda> I had a typo, nvm
16:41:34  <criador15> so, what i d?
16:42:20  <criador15> there is a way to make StringID return the string text?
16:42:38  <criador15> now i understand, it returns the memory addres
16:42:58  <glx> GSText is not for logging I think
16:43:34  <Eddi|zuHause> there is a "GetDecodedText" but it doesn't seem that is exposed to the script api
16:44:39  <glx> GSText is for functions expecting a Text (there it can be GSText, raw string or null)
16:45:00  <criador15> GSLog.Info("is "+GSText.STR_NOT_NULL_NAME); returns ´´is 13´
16:45:22  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, because string-IDs are numbers
16:45:22  *** tot has joined #openttd
16:45:25  <andythenorth> who is for ?
16:45:42  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: broad audience
16:46:09  <criador15> ok, i have to exit, later i came back, thanks for the help
16:46:12  <andythenorth> is it for contributors arriving at our github?
16:46:12  <glx> for logging use raw strings, logging is usually for debug only
16:46:21  <andythenorth> or is it the manual that is distributed with binaries?
16:47:09  <Eddi|zuHause> criador15: GSText is for things you want to tell the user, like in a window
16:47:19  <Alberth> for people arriving at the project and no idea what it's about; it's printed at the front-page of the project
16:47:29  <andythenorth> oh
16:47:42  <andythenorth> the binary bundles ship with
16:47:54  <Eddi|zuHause> probably...
16:47:56  <andythenorth> not README.txt
16:48:07  <Alberth> obviously, nothing stops you from inserting arbitrary text there :)
16:48:13  <andythenorth> can operating systems open .md?
16:48:17  <andythenorth> generally I think they can't
16:48:19  *** criador15 has quit IRC
16:48:27  <glx> .md is a text file
16:48:37  <andythenorth> yes but not a widely known format
16:48:44  <andythenorth> in my limited experience
16:48:51  <nielsm> random users won't know what to do
16:49:07  <glx> then OS ask what software you want to use to open it
16:49:10  <Alberth> yes, some windows will refuse to open it
16:49:17  <andythenorth> afaik macOS has no clue
16:49:35  <nielsm> should something be used to translate it to html for distro?
16:49:42  <nielsm> or rename it to txt in the distro?
16:49:43  <Alberth> clearly, it's not an apple format :p
16:49:45  <Eddi|zuHause> just call it .txt and have it be secretly a .md file
16:50:08  <andythenorth> in FIRS etc, I think I markdown render my readmes to .txt
16:50:11  <Eddi|zuHause> dunno why we need .md files
16:50:12  * andythenorth checks
16:50:16  <andythenorth> because github
16:50:33  <glx> grr compile faster, you stupid mingw, I have tests to do
16:50:48  <Eddi|zuHause> moar power!
16:51:07  <Alberth> more cpus :)
16:51:14  <andythenorth> yeah typically I dump down to .txt in the compile
16:51:16  <Alberth> a rack full of them
16:51:17  <andythenorth> docs are generated
16:51:19  <glx> yes I could use -j2
16:51:43  <Alberth> export MAKFLAGS=-j2
16:51:54  <andythenorth> so how does this do on the 'broad audience' criteria? :)
16:52:00  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm pretty sure i put -j6 somewhere so i don't forget it every time
16:52:02  <glx> but then it mixes target lines
16:52:12  <andythenorth> "2.2) Reporting desyncs" is ahead of "4.0) Installing and running OpenTTD"
16:52:18  <andythenorth> -j13 ftw :P
16:52:38  <glx> would be too much for my 6 cores :)
16:52:44  <andythenorth> I only have 4 :P
16:52:50  <andythenorth> it's not science, I just like 13
16:53:43  <TrueBrain> "$<AND:$<NOT:$<CONFIG:Debug>>,$<NOT:$<BOOL:${OPTION_USE_ASSERTS}>>>"
16:53:46  <TrueBrain> do you understand? :D
16:53:55  <Alberth> installing is generally too much near the front, in my experience
16:53:58  <Eddi|zuHause> i love programs where i run "program -?" and they don't tell me what the program does
16:54:31  <Alberth> you must love git then :p
16:55:03  <Alberth> usually you just get a list of options, no explanation at all
16:55:10  <glx> hehe generator expressions
16:55:18  <Eddi|zuHause> so i have "export MAKEFLAGS=-j6" in ~/.bashrc
16:55:20  <andythenorth> peter1138: do you have a PR for station catchments? o_O
16:55:28  <TrueBrain> solves that on a stable release we have to make a diff .. now I can just do: cmake .. -DCMAKE_BUILD_TYPE=Release -DOPTION_USE_ASSERTS=NO
16:55:31  <TrueBrain> and it makes a stable release :)
16:55:33  <glx> TrueBrain: that one is not too hard
16:55:49  <Alberth> TB: like magic!
16:56:45  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain updated pull request #7270: Introduce CMake (and removing all other project-related code)
16:56:50  <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: i love that it's not only reverse polish notation, but also uses brackets :p
16:56:54  <TrueBrain> sadly does mean I have to learn the azure-pipeline scripts the difference, but okay :)
16:57:07  <TrueBrain> hmm
16:57:12  <TrueBrain> I should make it OR, don't I ?
16:57:24  <TrueBrain> set(IS_STABLE_RELEASE "$<OR:$<CONFIG:Debug>,$<BOOL:${OPTION_USE_ASSERTS}>>")
16:57:27  <TrueBrain> should be the same ...
16:57:29  <Eddi|zuHause> or is it nonreverse polish notation?
16:57:35  <Eddi|zuHause> i forgot
16:57:35  <TrueBrain> euh, no
16:57:44  <TrueBrain> what-ever, stupid booleans
16:57:50  <andythenorth> so who's going to teach the bundle to render to .txt?
16:57:54  <Eddi|zuHause> one is "AB+" and the other "+AB"
16:57:56  <andythenorth> should I file an issue? :P
16:58:05  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: if the md is not readable as txt, you are doing it wrong
16:58:07  <Eddi|zuHause> instead of "A+B" for normal people
16:58:15  <andythenorth> yeah no
16:58:27  <andythenorth> the convention is readme.txt and has been for like 30 years at least
16:58:34  <andythenorth> so we're doing it wrong :P
16:58:37  <TrueBrain> euh .. welcome to 2019?
16:58:44  <andythenorth> welcome to 'my os can't open .md'
16:58:45  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: by "render" you mean "rename"
16:58:49  <TrueBrain> just because something has been done for N years, does that really mean you have to do it for M more?
16:58:53  <TrueBrain> that is one silly reasoning
16:58:58  <TrueBrain> fuck your OS :P
16:59:04  <andythenorth> eh?
16:59:10  <TrueBrain> it is your OS that is to blame :)
16:59:13  <andythenorth> .md is a source format, not a consumption format
16:59:20  <andythenorth> it's not for humans to read
16:59:23  <TrueBrain> yes, it is
16:59:26  <TrueBrain> it explicitly is
16:59:35  <TrueBrain> that is the whole point of that language
16:59:38  <nielsm> one of the design goals for markdown is to be readable in the source form
16:59:46  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: that attitude is why your code is so unreadable
17:00:00  <TrueBrain> "Markdown syntax is designed to be readable and unobtrusive"
17:00:09  <TrueBrain>
17:00:23  <andythenorth> honestly it's not readable to me
17:00:30  <andythenorth> it's full of computer shit
17:00:52  <andythenorth> the point of readme.txt is to help Bob and Alice
17:00:53  <Xaroth> It's less computery than rst :P
17:00:54  <TrueBrain> I am not sure you are doing it right ;)
17:01:07  <TrueBrain> our old readme.txt had similar constructs to define layout
17:01:29  <andythenorth> that doesn't make it right
17:01:42  <TrueBrain> I am honestly worried if our current cannot be read by Bob or Alice
17:01:46  <TrueBrain> even my mom can understand this
17:01:54  <TrueBrain> (OWH NO HE DIDNT :P)
17:02:04  <Xaroth> You're weird.
17:02:05  <TrueBrain> I rarely fully disagree with you andythenorth; but this is one :)
17:02:15  <TrueBrain> finally, there is something! :D
17:02:25  <andythenorth> oh FFS, now I have to make my Windows VM work
17:02:33  <andythenorth> just to see what MS do with .md
17:02:47  <TrueBrain> who knows; doesn't really matter tbh :)
17:02:51  <pnda> Markdown is cool
17:02:56  <TrueBrain> there are 2 ways the 99% will read the
17:03:07  <andythenorth> wait wat
17:03:10  <TrueBrain> Via the link on the download website:
17:03:11  <andythenorth> expand your argument TB :P
17:03:14  <Xaroth> Just open the .md file with notepad?
17:03:19  <TrueBrain> Via GitHub:
17:03:29  <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: uhm, 99% won't ever see the README either in .txt or .md :p
17:03:31  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: I WAS TYPING, ffs :P
17:03:44  <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: I was very careful in what I wrote ;)
17:03:54  <andythenorth> ouch windows doesn't understand my hi-dpi screen?
17:03:55  <pnda> I'd suggest editing the .md file with something like VS Code, because that's got a integrated support for it. Or if you want to view it directly:
17:03:58  <andythenorth> everything is teeeeny
17:03:59  <Alberth> The only weird thing in that file are the section numbers, I think
17:04:16  <TrueBrain> Alberth: yeah .. that looks really weird
17:04:20  <TrueBrain> and a ToC is also .. not normal
17:04:21  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: even windows 3.1 had a DPI setting
17:04:43  <TrueBrain> anyway, I would consider it highly unlikely someone is going to open the from the bundle itself
17:04:48  <TrueBrain> Windows users install via the .exe
17:04:56  <TrueBrain> Mac run it via the dmg
17:04:59  <pnda> For the download bundle: .txt
17:05:03  <TrueBrain> both won't show the via folder
17:05:05  <pnda> For the github repo: .md
17:05:12  <Xaroth> To be fair, OpenTTD's has a much nicer layout than most project's  that you find on github
17:05:22  <TrueBrain> so creating a .txt out of the .md is serving ... 0.01% of our userbase? :P
17:05:27  <TrueBrain> not worth the effort, in my opinion :)
17:05:47  <Alberth> you might as well render to pdf then
17:05:56  <TrueBrain> PDF would be a better one, yes
17:06:09  <pnda> pdf feels like 1990
17:06:15  <TrueBrain> a .txt feels like BBS
17:06:22  <TrueBrain> 1970 called, they are still mad at you
17:06:29  <Eddi|zuHause> we have an ingame readme viewer, but it doesn't show openttd readme, only newgrf readme
17:06:37  <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: ironic :D
17:06:43  <TrueBrain> does it show What's new?
17:06:44  <peter1138> And it also doesn't know about md :)
17:06:45  <andythenorth> yeah ok, windows wants to go to the windows app store for .md
17:07:04  <pnda> andythenorth: or use VS Code
17:07:13  <Xaroth> .. or just use notepad :P
17:07:17  <TrueBrain> wordpad
17:07:20  <andythenorth> or just abandon the game
17:07:20  <TrueBrain> never use notepad
17:07:22  <TrueBrain> burn notepad
17:07:23  <TrueBrain> please
17:07:27  <andythenorth> because you can't understand it
17:07:39  <Xaroth> latest win10 update improved notepad
17:07:42  <Eddi|zuHause> notepad is just a horrible program some intern wrote 20 years ago
17:07:45  <TrueBrain> honestly, if you need to read a README before you play a game, I am also a tiny bit worried :D
17:07:47  <Xaroth> it now understands unix/mac newlines
17:08:01  <Alberth> nooo!!!
17:08:08  <Alberth> omg :p
17:08:13  <andythenorth> so wait, who's for again?
17:08:15  <Eddi|zuHause> i think we discussed that topic here
17:08:20  <TrueBrain> its horrible isn't it Alberth? No longer something to bitch about :P
17:08:27  <andythenorth> it's not for a broad audience, because broad audience can't open it
17:08:37  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: you are being silly; sorry, you are :)
17:08:45  <Alberth> TB: file of 65637 bytes will do :p
17:10:36  <TrueBrain> oeh, and on the plus side, andythenorth, if it is markdown, it can also be put on the website as it (styled and everything! :D)
17:10:56  <glx> TrueBrain: <-- not too hacky ?
17:11:04  <Alberth> GH also understands rst I think
17:11:31  <Eddi|zuHause> <-- notepad discussion
17:12:32  <TrueBrain> glx: I still don't know what it solves, so I cannot say anything about it
17:12:58  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: you're conflating two things here: "audience for the readme" and "audience for the readme file on the hard disk"
17:13:09  <andythenorth> expand Eddi|zuHause....
17:13:15  <TrueBrain> glx: in all cases, you have to postfix these files with something
17:13:19  <Eddi|zuHause> there's more ways to view the readme than the file on the hard disk
17:13:22  <TrueBrain> empty files that look like generated will confuse the fuck out of people
17:13:25  <andythenorth> I asked what the audience was, and that was too black and white :)
17:13:29  <LordAro> Eddi|zuHause: actually, i read something about notepad being a testing ground for various things, like the open file dialog
17:13:37  <TrueBrain> glx: so .timestamp postfix or something would go a long way :D
17:14:06  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: honestly, i think the way most people will find the readme is via google
17:14:20  <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: like I said earlier, we should split the two files .. developers and players have nothing in common .. don't put it in a single file
17:14:23  <andythenorth> yes, but what about people who don't have an internet connection
17:14:38  <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: that's why we have
17:14:41  <andythenorth> I am not even trolling, having internet is still privileged
17:14:42  <TrueBrain> NO INTERNET CONNECTION?!
17:14:44  <TrueBrain> :P
17:14:58  <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: no, that is when you want to contribute, which is yet-another-step-further
17:15:05  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: these people will figure out how to view an .md file eventually
17:15:06  <TrueBrain> README -> CONTRIBUTING is mostly the path of a developer
17:15:13  <TrueBrain> <nothing> is mostly the path of a player
17:15:21  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: by visiting the Windows App Store, online?
17:15:26  <TrueBrain> yes
17:15:34  <andythenorth> because Windows does *not* know how to open .md
17:15:39  <glx> it solves the "generating table/strings.h" constantly happening after a source file, like english.txt, is modified, but the content of table/strings.h was not modified
17:15:49  <LordAro> glx: i suspect the circumstances in which such an issue can occur are very limited, even for developers
17:16:04  <TrueBrain> glx: it doesn't happen for me; so I have a hard time understanding :D But I also havent looked into it yet, so .. meh
17:16:05  <LordAro> except while you're doing cmake stuff
17:16:11  <LordAro> sometimes
17:16:23  <TrueBrain> while working on cmake itself, you have to accept you are constantly throwing your whole build folder away :P
17:16:26  <TrueBrain> no way around that
17:16:29  <glx> can happen when switching branches too
17:17:04  <TrueBrain> but okay, we really should make a pass on cmake to simplify it more
17:17:07  <Eddi|zuHause> it reconfigures after switching branches for me, usually
17:17:20  <TrueBrain> it is better to have understandable cmake code, than cover every edge-case tbh
17:18:50  <andythenorth> also can I bonfire small parts of the wiki?
17:19:07  <andythenorth> eh forgiveness > permission
17:19:16  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: there's two kinds of people who need to read the readme. the first is "wtf! this doesn't run!" where the answer is usually "you need to download a base set", and the second is "wtf! this doesn't compile!" to which the answer is "you're missing these libraries:"
17:19:16  <LordAro> you could probably make a reasonable claim that not touching an unchanged file is a cmake bug
17:19:24  <LordAro> andythenorth: depends which parts
17:19:25  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: I think here too the suggestion goes: we can debate these things for ever, or we can just move along and do something .. so yeah ..
17:19:27  <TrueBrain> break eggs, who cares
17:19:44  <andythenorth> it has been a while since I was accused of wiki vandalism
17:19:53  <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: and we really really should fix the first category, to automatically fix it, or hint to how to solve it :)
17:20:18  <TrueBrain> the current hint is annoying as fuck
17:20:23  <TrueBrain> as it doesn't help
17:20:28  <TrueBrain> (Basically, it says: RTFM)
17:20:30  <LordAro> there are definitely some issues with the current bootstrap download
17:20:34  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: then there's fractally more complicated edge cases
17:20:42  <LordAro> it doesn't seem to trigger as often as it should
17:20:51  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: like every now and then an actual bug happens
17:20:54  <TrueBrain> it starts with searchpaths being silly
17:20:59  <glx> for table/* files it's not very important, but for squirrel exports it's quickly annoying to get so many "generating hpp.sq" lines even when your are no longer touching that part of the source
17:21:40  <TrueBrain> glx: and this is really needed, I guess we at least should turn it into a macro
17:21:52  <TrueBrain> +if
17:21:59  <andythenorth> why does github history only go to 2004?
17:22:08  <andythenorth> I was going to lay waste to
17:22:11  <TrueBrain> because ....... git goes only to 2004?
17:22:13  <andythenorth> but it might be really important
17:22:27  <LordAro> andythenorth: but that's my favourite page
17:22:29  <TrueBrain> blaming GitHub :(
17:22:36  <LordAro> that's definitely no longer relevant
17:22:43  <LordAro> ...r1 is 2004?
17:22:43  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: you should just have removed it .... I bet he would have never found out :P
17:22:50  <glx> ah yes the macro is a good idea
17:23:01  <andythenorth> yeah but Github doesn't credit, e.g. RichK67
17:23:02  <TrueBrain> March 2004 I think?
17:23:10  <TrueBrain> he doesn't deserve credit :P
17:23:21  <TrueBrain> Aug 2004 even
17:23:30  <LordAro> it doesn't credit contributors it doesn't have users for
17:23:38  <TrueBrain> a story of not having backups, and a hosting partner who demanded more money ..
17:23:41  <TrueBrain> it was such a fun story
17:24:00  *** Maarten has quit IRC
17:24:00  <LordAro> i.e. it doesn't add the raw "users"
17:24:12  *** Maarten has joined #openttd
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17:24:28  <TrueBrain> owh, I should get some dinner I guess
17:26:19  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: some more serious thought, what would really help for OpenTTD, I think, is if the in the root folder was meant for people visiting GitHub
17:26:27  <TrueBrain> and in docs/ or something we can put one which is meant for bundling
17:26:37  <TrueBrain> as having "compile" instructions in the bundle, is stupid
17:26:47  <TrueBrain> (as ... you literally cannot compile it when you read that :P)
17:27:05  <TrueBrain> so that at least answers who the reader of the is in the root folder of OpenTTD: GitHub visitors :D
17:27:15  <LordAro> what?
17:27:33  <TrueBrain> say the parrot
17:27:35  <LordAro> what about reading the readme stops you from compiling it?
17:27:42  <Eddi|zuHause> we could easily output a readme.html from the .md?
17:27:43  <LordAro> TrueBrain: I WAS TYPING
17:27:47  <TrueBrain> LordAro: TYPE FASTER
17:28:06  <LordAro> NO
17:28:07  <michi_cc> LordAro: A bundle it a release without sources.
17:28:08  <TrueBrain> LordAro: you download the windows .zip
17:28:10  <TrueBrain> you openit
17:28:12  <TrueBrain> you read the README
17:28:14  <TrueBrain> you try to compile it
17:28:16  <TrueBrain> waaiiiiittttttt
17:28:17  <TrueBrain> :D
17:28:31  <LordAro> but if you have a source bundle...
17:28:40  <TrueBrain> yes; exception for source bundle
17:28:43  <TrueBrain> but that is 1 out of the 12
17:28:47  <TrueBrain> but I agree, there is one exception
17:28:50  <Alberth> Eddi: yes, all kinds of conversion tools for .md files
17:28:51  <TrueBrain> but the source bundle is easy
17:28:55  <TrueBrain> TAR EVERYTHING
17:28:59  <TrueBrain> so it is not really a "bundle"
17:29:06  <Eddi|zuHause> so, we need,, and a README.html for people who only know how to click on a file
17:29:08  <TrueBrain> but okay, rephrase: BINARY bundle, is stupid
17:29:24  <LordAro> yeah, could probably be split - the docs foldee is bundled with all releases anyway, right?
17:29:38  <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: docs/, (your, .. would be my suggestion ;)
17:29:47  <TrueBrain> LordAro: no clue
17:29:50  <LordAro> in a subfolder is silly
17:29:53  <TrueBrain> I know it is amess :P
17:29:53  <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: that doesn't sound right
17:29:56  <LordAro> it'll never be see
17:30:00  <LordAro> seen*
17:30:02  <TrueBrain> LordAro: you bundle that to readme.pdf in the bundle ofc!
17:30:09  <LordAro> ;-;
17:30:13  <TrueBrain> s/bundle/binary bundle/
17:30:24  <TrueBrain> readme is a stupid word ..
17:30:35  <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: docs/ should be for development documentation, not for readmes
17:30:43  <TrueBrain> anyway, just remember that GitHub looks for and
17:30:57  <LordAro> BUILDING is the more common term for build instructions iirc, anyway
17:31:03  <LordAro> (+ .md)
17:31:33  <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: also, WELCOME is a weird name
17:31:39  <TrueBrain> yes
17:31:58  <Eddi|zuHause> if i'm having install troubles, i'm not going to read a file called WELCOME
17:32:00  <Alberth> doc.pdf :p
17:32:00  <TrueBrain> docs/ :D
17:32:08  <LordAro> i don't think a separate welcome doc is necessary
17:32:19  <LordAro> a paragraph at the top of readme would suffice
17:32:33  <TrueBrain> top?
17:32:35  <TrueBrain> pfft
17:32:37  <TrueBrain> :P
17:32:45  <TrueBrain> what you can also dooooooooooo
17:32:49  <TrueBrain> is use doxygen to generate your documentation
17:32:50  <TrueBrain> :D
17:33:05  <LordAro> it does need some work
17:33:09  <LordAro> but sure :p
17:33:12  <TrueBrain> no, not source documentation
17:33:16  <TrueBrain> README, etc, documentation
17:33:20  <TrueBrain> doxygen can process markdown files ;)
17:33:27  <TrueBrain> does a pretty nice job with it, tbh
17:33:28  <LordAro> exactly :p
17:33:43  <TrueBrain> PDFs!!!!
17:33:48  <Eddi|zuHause> speaking of doxygen, do we have doxygen output readable anywhere online?
17:33:57  <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: of course
17:33:59  <TrueBrain> any one in specific?
17:34:01  <TrueBrain> or just a random one?
17:34:15  <Eddi|zuHause> preferably the one from the openttd source :p
17:34:20  <TrueBrain>
17:34:27  <TrueBrain> we also have NoAi and NoGS
17:34:33  <TrueBrain> but you are not specific, so I am neither
17:34:41  <Eddi|zuHause> that is a very empty page :)
17:34:51  <TrueBrain> our doxygen is very bad
17:34:55  <TrueBrain> like .. really bad
17:35:08  <Eddi|zuHause> could use a "this is for OpenTTD <version>"
17:35:08  <TrueBrain> but nobody cares .. as you can see :D
17:35:21  <TrueBrain>
17:35:26  <TrueBrain> we do that for NoAI
17:35:30  <TrueBrain> it is injected in Doxygen :P
17:35:53  <TrueBrain> we paid a lot more attention to how that Doxygen produces results
17:35:58  <TrueBrain> as you can see, I hope ;)
17:36:05  <Eddi|zuHause> "The NoAI/OpenTTD trunk revision which matches this documentation is r28004"
17:36:30  <TrueBrain> he is not wrongt
17:36:32  <TrueBrain> it does
17:36:54  <Eddi|zuHause> it's one of those "well, it's technically correct, but pretty useless"
17:37:06  <pnda> Are # comments allowed in NML, yes they are right?
17:37:16  <Eddi|zuHause> pnda: i'm pretty sure they are
17:37:24  <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: yeah. Nobody knows these URLs, so it is useless anyway
17:37:30  <TrueBrain> turns out they are not really linked from anywhere
17:37:40  <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: it's not even in the topic
17:37:54  <pnda> Parsing ...?[KIllegal character '#' (character code 0x23) reeeeeeeee
17:38:03  <TrueBrain> so yeah .. a year ago we already noticed it needs a more proper solution
17:38:06  <Eddi|zuHause> pnda: then try //
17:38:08  <TrueBrain> owh, right, food .. I am hungry ..
17:38:53  *** criador15 has joined #openttd
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17:39:06  <Eddi|zuHause> pnda: is your # at the start of the line?
17:39:16  <pnda> yes
17:39:37  <Eddi|zuHause> that should work
17:39:47  <Eddi|zuHause> i've definitely compiled nml files which contain #
17:39:54  <pnda> me too
17:40:17  <criador15> in GS this is right? local cargoType = 0; local size = cargoType.len();
17:40:39  <Eddi|zuHause> criador15: that doesn't make any sense
17:40:49  <criador15> len() will return the lenght of size
17:40:50  <andythenorth> nml comments are //
17:40:53  <andythenorth> # is python
17:41:23  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: cpp output contains lots of #
17:41:36  <andythenorth> hmm
17:41:49  <andythenorth> as usual with nml then I have NFI
17:41:55  <andythenorth> but my code is // or /*
17:42:17  <criador15> i want ´size´ have GSText.STR_WELCOME length, but len() return a error
17:42:19  <Eddi|zuHause> both should work, afaik
17:42:37  <criador15> both are comments
17:42:54  <andythenorth> can I be arsed to test it?
17:42:54  <andythenorth> nope
17:43:06  <andythenorth> can we burn nml?
17:43:12  <pnda> no
17:43:18  <criador15>  //, /* */ and #, every language choose your
17:43:35  <andythenorth> <!-- -->
17:43:37  <criador15> some even use @
17:43:40  <andythenorth> or <!--! -->
17:43:43  <criador15> that too
17:43:44  <nielsm> or --
17:43:47  <nielsm> or '
17:43:48  <Eddi|zuHause> criador15: if you press ctrl+enter you can have / at the start of the line
17:43:50  <nielsm> or ;
17:44:04  <nielsm> or %
17:44:19  <nielsm> or dnl
17:44:24  <nielsm> or rem
17:44:30  <criador15> Eddi|zuHause what?
17:44:40  <Eddi|zuHause> criador15: in IRC
17:44:45  <nielsm> the number of ways to mark comments in languages is enormous
17:44:52  <Eddi|zuHause> criador15: well, most IRC clients
17:44:53  <criador15> .i use browser
17:45:08  <Eddi|zuHause> try it?
17:45:08  <LordAro> Eddi|zuHause: depends on the client
17:45:20  <criador15> tried and failed
17:45:28  <LordAro> i use / /
17:45:34  <criador15> i use //
17:45:43  <pnda> I use //
17:45:48  <criador15> sometimes /* comments here*/
17:46:11  <criador15> how i know the size of this GSText.STR_WELCOME?
17:46:19  <LordAro> ...i think we're talking at cross purposes here
17:46:19  <pnda> I thought the def nml() inside of would be the main part of parsing the nml file. Am I wrong?
17:46:21  <LordAro> whatever
17:47:28  <criador15> as always, I tried to create a sign, but I need to check the preconditions
17:48:02  <Eddi|zuHause> so if i read the parser correctly, lines starting with "#" are considered "line directives" (guiding which source file to reference for error handling and stuff), and # is invalid elsewhere
17:48:06  <Eddi|zuHause> so use // comments
17:48:34  <criador15> if i am not confuse, # are used in .bat files too
17:49:14  <pnda> Uhh in, there's result = nml_parser.parse(script, file). It seems to not be parsing that file, rather the file stated in the command line (python nmlc test.nml)
17:49:16  <Eddi|zuHause> i thought bat files was ;
17:49:27  <criador15> was?
17:49:51  <nielsm> the only official way in msdos batch files has always been "rem"
17:49:53  <Eddi|zuHause> it's been like 20 years since i wrote bat files
17:49:59  <nielsm> but : has been abused for it
17:50:15  <nielsm> since : at the start of a line marks a label for goto commands
17:50:19  <Eddi|zuHause> oh right, : worked (which is jump markers)
17:50:23  <nielsm> but it's not an error to have a label never used
17:50:33  <criador15> you are using assembler?lol
17:51:12  <Eddi|zuHause> pnda: i don't understand what you mean
17:51:15  <criador15> would be cool, but i know you are not
17:52:04  <criador15> nieslm you know how to use the len() method to check GSText.STR sizes?
17:52:28  <nielsm> no
17:52:34  <criador15> someone know?
17:53:14  <criador15> maybe Alberth?
17:54:00  <Eddi|zuHause> criador15: GSText doesn't know the length
17:54:27  <Eddi|zuHause> GSText is just an ID passed to OpenTTD, so OpenTTD can look up the string from the translation files
17:54:45  <Eddi|zuHause> the length will not be known until that happens
17:54:54  <criador15> i can place a sign using just plain string?
17:54:56  <Eddi|zuHause> because it will be different depending on translation used
17:55:05  <Eddi|zuHause> probably
17:55:14  <Eddi|zuHause> have you looked at the tutorial?
17:55:15  <criador15> and it never will be translated?
17:55:22  <criador15> yep
17:57:10  <LordAro> criador15: it's bad form to randomly highlight random people with random questions
17:57:57  <pnda> I want to test something with NML. I have nml_parser.parse(script, file). That file is a specific file I defined above with file = open("file", "w"). It's still trying to parse the file defined in the command line arguments (python nmlc test.nml)
17:58:18  <criador15> ok
17:58:23  <andythenorth> TrueBrain: so source for bundled readme.txt in here?
17:58:32  <andythenorth> and it's just a signpost to other places?
17:59:17  <andythenorth> low chance of readme.txt being both (1) comprehensive to all edge cases (2) easy to understand
17:59:21  * andythenorth favours easy to understand
17:59:29  <Alberth> criador15: addressing me by highlighting means I am to respond. That;s fine for things you want to discuss with me, but it also means all others will often not answer, even if they know the answer
18:00:01  <Eddi|zuHause> pnda: it should be a filename, not a file
18:00:21  <Alberth> by asking the question in general, you're likely to get an answer faster and more accurately; more people really know more than one
18:00:28  <pnda> oh so just like nml_parser.parse(script, "file.nml")?
18:00:33  <LordAro> andythenorth: i disagree that there should be a separate and readme.txt
18:00:59  <LordAro> and it definitely should be a file, due to how GH renders it , and how it actually is very readable
18:01:36  <criador15> i know, but sometimes there is no response, and when this happen i highlight someone i think will know anwers
18:01:48  <criador15> answer*
18:02:07  <pnda> Eddi|zuHause: oh so just like nml_parser.parse(script, "file.nml")?
18:02:27  *** Tony has joined #openttd
18:02:37  <Tony> Hi all
18:02:56  <criador15> GSSign.BuildSign() create a uncloseabe sign?
18:03:01  <criador15> hi o/
18:04:00  <Eddi|zuHause> criador15: you must run BuildSign as the correct company
18:04:22  <Alberth> IRC is a slow medium, people have the window open while doing other things, they may respond anywhere between immediately and a few hours
18:04:35  <andythenorth> hmm
18:04:42  <andythenorth> so as usual, we don't know what we want
18:04:51  <andythenorth> which is why docs are already a cluster fuck :)
18:04:52  <Eddi|zuHause> pnda: you could have tried that out instead of waiting if i happen to read the question
18:04:59  <pnda> I tried. Same error
18:05:04  <Alberth> if you're doing the work, I'd say tou make the choice
18:05:10  <Alberth> ^ andy
18:05:18  <Eddi|zuHause> pnda: i don't know what you're trying to achieve, but you're probably doing it wrong
18:05:21  <pnda> Well, I did try. But it's still trying to read the file from the command line arguments
18:05:32  <Eddi|zuHause> pnda: also, you might be running the wrong nmlc (not the one you modified)
18:05:32  <Tony> Hi pnda
18:05:39  *** Thedarkb-T60 has quit IRC
18:05:51  <pnda> It's definitely the one I modified
18:05:56  <pnda> Hi Tony
18:06:04  <Eddi|zuHause> it most likely is not
18:06:10  <criador15> how build the sign via player company using GS?
18:06:27  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] gh658804 opened issue #7381: Problem with stations and nearby industry
18:06:28  *** Tony has quit IRC
18:06:29  <Eddi|zuHause> (still RE: the idea of there's a different one in your PATH)
18:06:40  <Alberth> you switch to that company, then build a sign
18:06:55  <Alberth> (and then switch back)
18:07:10  <criador15> switch how?
18:07:13  <criador15> lol
18:07:28  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] gh658804 commented on issue #7381: Problem with stations and nearby industry
18:07:41  <pnda> In the command line arguments, I define a .nml file, which does have a Syntax error, but I always get that syntax error, but inside the error it says it's the file I defined in the python code.
18:07:54  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Eddi-z commented on issue #7381: Problem with stations and nearby industry
18:07:59  <Alberth> criador15: Ever read the list there?
18:08:15  <criador15> i am with two tabs of the game API open
18:08:35  <criador15> in company there is no method to build sign, only in GSSign
18:08:47  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] gh658804 commented on issue #7381: Problem with stations and nearby industry
18:08:54  <criador15> and i dont have a current developed AI to switch place with player
18:10:04  <criador15> Alberth yes i read the API
18:10:07  <Alberth> AIs cannot switch company, GS can
18:10:15  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] gh658804 commented on issue #7381: Problem with stations and nearby industry
18:11:05  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Eddi-z commented on issue #7381: Problem with stations and nearby industry
18:11:08  <criador15> right, which class do it?
18:11:11  <Alberth> criador15: Well sorry, but I read literally :  GSCompanyMode     Class to switch the current company         and you ask how
18:11:38  <criador15> hmm
18:12:39  <Alberth> after you switch, everything you do is in that companies name, so if you place a sign, it's like the company placed it
18:13:08  <criador15> so its like control a AIControl, which control the player company?
18:13:20  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Eddi-z commented on issue #7381: Problem with stations and nearby industry
18:13:24  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN commented on issue #7381: Problem with stations and nearby industry
18:13:57  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] gh658804 commented on issue #7381: Problem with stations and nearby industry
18:14:08  <Alberth> you are aware that there is also NoAI, for making companies that play the game, right?
18:14:20  <criador15> yep
18:14:25  <LordAro> !=
18:14:29  <LordAro> nogo*
18:14:29  <andythenorth> so what's the readme in GH for?
18:14:39  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Eddi-z commented on issue #7381: Problem with stations and nearby industry
18:14:42  <criador15> i am learning with tutorialAI, busybees simple city builder
18:14:43  <andythenorth>
18:14:47  <Alberth> those are named "AI", so I am note sure what "AIControl" means here
18:15:20  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] gh658804 commented on issue #7381: Problem with stations and nearby industry
18:15:36  <Alberth> andy: Is there a noob manual of some sort?
18:15:38  <criador15> i mean, GSCompany mode is like control a AI, but the ´AI´ its the player company
18:15:53  <pnda> reee I don't get why nmlc is still trying to use the other file
18:15:54  <criador15> noob is way to much
18:16:03  <criador15> i am here for 4 days
18:16:05  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: remember that things like .txt is always fixable. So what the format is, is not much of a discussion
18:16:09  <TrueBrain> we can always convert md to txt
18:16:11  <TrueBrain> we cannot convert txt to md
18:16:22  <andythenorth> yeah, I'm more interested in content at this point
18:16:24  <TrueBrain> so yeah .. I wouldnt worry too much about how bundles look :)
18:16:25  <Alberth> criador15:  it said "andy:"
18:16:26  <TrueBrain> exactly ;)
18:16:32  <TrueBrain> and your ToC looks nice
18:16:35  <TrueBrain> write the words
18:16:36  <TrueBrain> make a PR
18:16:39  <TrueBrain> lets see what happens
18:16:42  <TrueBrain> do what you think is best :)
18:16:48  <Alberth> criador15: in that case, it's like ai control
18:16:51  <andythenorth> Alberth: the official manual is the wiki
18:17:08  <andythenorth>
18:17:16  <andythenorth> the wiki is also the official development source
18:17:24  <LordAro> ?
18:17:32  <andythenorth> except that GH is the official development source
18:17:41  <criador15> okay AFK
18:17:43  <Alberth> andy: I would say, it's at people visiting GH, which are mostly tech users/devs. You may want to point other users towards documentation such as the wiki near the top of the page
18:17:56  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] gh658804 commented on issue #7381: Problem with stations and nearby industry
18:18:35  <andythenorth> on this general subject, who is forum mod in development sub-forum?
18:18:45  <andythenorth> oh listed here
18:18:56  <andythenorth> this thread is stickied and is totally wrong
18:19:04  <Alberth> :o didn't know you could ask that :)
18:19:27  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Eddi-z commented on issue #7381: Problem with stations and nearby industry
18:19:36  <LordAro> andythenorth: i don't see anything very wrong there
18:19:45  <LordAro> if you have an svn-style patch, that's still the way to do it
18:19:53  <andythenorth> yes, which is wrong
18:20:10  <LordAro> the topic is literally "how to apply a patch/diff file"
18:20:16  <LordAro> so no, it's not
18:20:29  <LordAro> also it does actually mention how to apply git patches, albeit briefly
18:20:34  <Alberth> how is it wrong?
18:20:47  <andythenorth> it's junk information
18:20:50  <andythenorth> it's of no use
18:20:54  <andythenorth> it wastes people's time
18:20:57  <Alberth> nodoubt in those days, git/hg was hardly used
18:21:01  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN commented on issue #7381: Problem with stations and nearby industry
18:21:01  <LordAro> so unsticky it
18:21:05  <andythenorth> yes
18:21:06  <andythenorth> I can't
18:21:06  <LordAro> but it's not wrong
18:21:14  <andythenorth> no it's wrong that it's pinned, sorry
18:21:17  <TrueBrain> btw, with the website on GH, possibly we can move some of these things (both threads as wiki pages) to the website itself .. might be nicer to reduce the amount of places information is at, or something
18:21:20  <andythenorth> better explanation
18:21:40  <criador15> i made this: local playerCompany = GSCompanyMode(GSCompany.COMPANY_SELF);
18:21:50  <TrueBrain> sticky gone
18:21:53  <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, close as invalid? :p
18:22:02  <andythenorth> thx
18:22:09  <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: i'm pretty sure, yes.
18:22:09  <andythenorth> coding style, still canonical in wiki?
18:22:11  <criador15> but this: playerCompany.BuildSign() may dont work
18:22:35  <andythenorth> yeah wiki is canonical ok
18:22:42  <TrueBrain> I hate mediawiki :P
18:22:47  <TrueBrain> shall we install Confluence?
18:22:49  <TrueBrain> Sharepoint?
18:22:51  <TrueBrain> Microsoft Teams?
18:22:59  <LordAro> i hate those more
18:22:59  <Alberth> discord?
18:23:00  *** Thedarkb-T60 has joined #openttd
18:23:11  <criador15> discord to what/
18:23:12  <criador15> ?
18:23:13  <TrueBrain> you can't put these things on Discord you silly goose
18:23:24  <andythenorth> discord is requested btw
18:23:32  <andythenorth> ok forums clean now
18:23:35  <pnda> discord is gud
18:23:35  <criador15> what about a custom site?
18:23:39  <andythenorth> one less source of nonsense
18:23:58  <pnda> You can put these things on discord, if you really want to
18:24:09  <criador15> everything you want, and they alow
18:24:11  <andythenorth> TrueBrain: I hate mediawiki, but this is fine and nice, no?
18:24:14  <TrueBrain> can a duck fit in a square? Sure, it can .. but do you want to? :P
18:24:32  <LordAro> i have absolutely no issues with mediawiki, fwiw
18:24:38  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: no .. but I am also not interested to show other ways of doing it, so I am not going to bother :P
18:24:38  <Alberth> duck may object too :)
18:24:39  <LordAro> it's definitely the best at being a wiki
18:24:41  <andythenorth> oh wiki link to translator 404s
18:24:46  <pnda> or you could have a implementation of the wiki to discord with a bot for example
18:24:59  *** gelignite has joined #openttd
18:24:59  <andythenorth> dunno if I can edit wiki sidebar
18:25:10  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] gh658804 commented on issue #7381: Problem with stations and nearby industry
18:25:11  <LordAro> pnda: that sentence barely even makes sense
18:25:20  <TrueBrain> LordAro: but what ever definition of "best" :D
18:25:21  <TrueBrain> hihi
18:25:24  <LordAro> andythenorth: it's just a page somewhere, you should be able to
18:25:28  <pnda> meh, it does kinda
18:25:28  <criador15> i dont know how to use GSCompanymode
18:25:31  <LordAro> TrueBrain: "at being a wiki"
18:25:35  <TrueBrain> never tried the GH Wiki .. never saw it used
18:25:45  <pnda>
18:25:49  <TrueBrain> LordAro: yes, I was not debating that part of your statement. I was what you consider "best" :D
18:25:58  <TrueBrain> as best is optimized to something ;)
18:26:07  <TrueBrain> best at looking fugly
18:26:17  <TrueBrain> best at making administrators live horrible
18:26:22  <TrueBrain> those are also "best" :D
18:26:24  <LordAro> that's because it's an ancient version of mediawiki
18:26:31  <TrueBrain> people keep saying that
18:26:34  <LordAro> there have been 2 different default style sheets since then
18:26:36  <TrueBrain> people keep saying they are going to upgrade it :P
18:26:36  <Alberth> best at being random collection of stuff
18:26:44  <andythenorth> I can't figure out how to edit wiki sidebar
18:26:48  <andythenorth>
18:26:55  <andythenorth> 'WebTranslator' is 404
18:27:02  <TrueBrain> so possibly LordAro we have to adjust your definition: "our" mediawiki is not the best wiki out there :P
18:27:02  <TrueBrain> :D
18:27:12  <LordAro> TrueBrain: that's fair :p
18:27:15  <TrueBrain> \o/ :D
18:27:37  <LordAro> andythenorth:
18:27:38  <TrueBrain> what I really dislike about wiki, that changes, even to pages like Coding Style, can go completely unchecked
18:27:43  <TrueBrain> so I am never sure what I read is true
18:27:45  <LordAro> it might be protected
18:28:13  <Eddi|zuHause> wiki-PRs
18:28:29  <LordAro> that's so much a non-statement. everything's like that, from comments to code itself
18:29:00  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: I see nothing wrong in the sidebar?
18:29:13  <andythenorth> click 'Web Translator'
18:29:25  <TrueBrain> LordAro: that is simply not true. All our code is reviewed
18:29:26  <pnda> I cba editing nml anymore. I don't see why this doesn't work like I want it to
18:29:30  <TrueBrain> at least 1 other person agreed with you
18:29:40  <andythenorth> I'm fixing that sidebar
18:29:40  <TrueBrain> so the chances of it being correct, is so much higher
18:29:46  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: reload the page silly
18:29:57  <LordAro> TrueBrain: it is now, sure, but things can still get missed (the various html pages are the obvious example)
18:30:02  <TrueBrain> LordAro: as the component of feeling being watched, helps with the quality
18:30:08  <andythenorth> ok fixed
18:30:27  <TrueBrain> I read so many untrue statements on our wiki, that I simply stopped reading it
18:30:30  <andythenorth> how much else in the wiki can be 'fixed' that way?
18:30:34  <andythenorth> i.e. delete hammer
18:30:48  <andythenorth> "The graphics section is where artists, NewGRF engine coders, and other graphics related developers collaborate on graphics development. Find out about the latest developments in base graphics, NewGrfs (both 8bpp and 32bpp) and more. "
18:30:51  <andythenorth> wtf?
18:30:54  <andythenorth> that's complete crap ^
18:31:30  <TrueBrain> LordAro: but okay, let me rephrase: on a wiki I never know if it *once* was true
18:32:03  <andythenorth> I would like to set the wiki free
18:32:16  <TrueBrain> guess I don't have faith in our anonymous contributors :D
18:32:27  <andythenorth> it would be much better if the wiki wasn't even *supposed* to be true
18:32:28  <andythenorth> or useful
18:32:28  <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: so turn the wiki over to the website, and all changes must be audited through github PRs?
18:32:42  <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: if I had the time, with some pages, I would
18:32:48  <TrueBrain> well . time .. interest ..
18:32:50  <TrueBrain> take your pick
18:33:11  <LordAro> TrueBrain: in newer versions of mediawiki, there is a concept of "patrolling", where edits need to be reviewed before being shown
18:33:14  <LordAro>
18:33:21  <TrueBrain> LordAro: so PRs for wiki? :D
18:33:31  <LordAro> more or less, yes :p
18:33:41  <LordAro> it can be applied on a per-page basis
18:33:46  <pnda> can I trigger a cmd command within a python script?
18:33:47  <andythenorth> where is it hosted?
18:33:51  <andythenorth> sometimes, it's really helpful
18:33:58  <TrueBrain> where is what hosted? :P
18:34:02  <andythenorth> the wiki
18:34:09  <TrueBrain> our wiki? on our infrastructure of course
18:34:13  <andythenorth> sometimes, the best progress comes if a server dies, and it turns out there were no backups
18:34:17  <TrueBrain> forum is the only one we are not in control of
18:34:22  <TrueBrain> I can arrange that
18:34:23  <TrueBrain> :P
18:34:34  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: sadly, we have backups since 2004 :p
18:34:43  <andythenorth> maybe they're not restorable?
18:34:46  <LordAro> i don't think that's a very productive attitude
18:34:49  <TrueBrain> no, I dont mind the wiki. I mind that some key pages are .. just idling there, possibly being correct
18:34:53  <LordAro> every wiki has its outdated parts
18:35:03  <LordAro> complaining about them is just a waste of time
18:35:03  <andythenorth> let fans make a wikia
18:35:06  <LordAro> fix them, or shut up
18:35:11  <andythenorth> like they do for other games
18:35:23  <LordAro> andythenorth: ...or a wiki
18:35:25  <Alberth> it's worse, we have pages "archived" for preserving hisotry
18:35:43  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: I guess that is somewhat what my issue is. A wiki should be by the users, and don't contain any important information for development on its own
18:35:48  <Alberth> eg early the 32bpp stuff iirc
18:36:12  <LordAro> wikia is absolutely no different to a mediawiki instance, except there's absolutely no (guarantee of) official management
18:36:18  <LordAro> so the issue is even worse
18:36:21  <LordAro> and full of spam
18:36:24  <andythenorth> no that's better
18:36:31  <andythenorth> it's not in uncanny valley
18:36:36  <TrueBrain> I wonder how some wikis have their quality so high
18:36:40  <TrueBrain> never really looked into it, I have to say
18:37:00  <TrueBrain> gamepedia is also a wiki, I assume?
18:37:17  <criador15> what about take the useful and true information of the wiki and bring it to the forum in the help section?
18:37:25  <TrueBrain> <- it is scary how correct the information there always is
18:37:26  <andythenorth>
18:37:56  <andythenorth> or
18:38:00  <TrueBrain> guess the same goes as for forums ... without good moderation, your content is shit
18:38:05  <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: that also has its outdated parts
18:38:37  <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: outdated I noticed, but rarely wrong
18:39:00  <peter1138> Oo, it compiled.
18:39:05  <criador15> what about take the useful and true information of the wiki and bring it to the forum in the help section?
18:39:08  <glx> [19:21:42] <criador15> i made this: local playerCompany = GSCompanyMode(GSCompany.COMPANY_SELF); <-- COMPANY_SELF is OWNER_DEITY for GS, you need to use a real company value
18:39:11  <peter1138> With newgrf_dock.cpp :p
18:39:20  <andythenorth> peter1138: \o/
18:39:24  <criador15> and how they say wait for it broke?
18:39:29  <andythenorth> criador15: forum is even worse than wiki :)
18:39:35  <criador15> lol
18:39:36  <LordAro> TrueBrain: i'm not aware that that's any different from our wiki
18:39:44  <peter1138> andythenorth, now I need to borrow the UI
18:39:45  <LordAro> "outdated but rarely wrong"
18:39:48  <peter1138> and, er, make a NewGRF?
18:39:56  <andythenorth> probably
18:40:07  <andythenorth> then $somebody needs to patch nml
18:40:09  <andythenorth> and the docs
18:40:14  <TrueBrain> LordAro: meh. You should open these things like Blackbook and what did they call it ..
18:40:22  <TrueBrain> even when written, they were not true
18:40:38  <TrueBrain> I am mostly wondering what it takes to make a wiki work
18:40:50  <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: i imagine poe has a much larger player base, so there likely is a tighter core group trying to weed out misinformation
18:40:57  <andythenorth> I concluded that I will die not knowing that TrueBrain
18:41:01  <andythenorth> it's an unknowable
18:41:03  <criador15> interest people
18:41:13  <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: I guess that can be true
18:41:14  <LordAro> TrueBrain: the blackbook section should probably be removed, i'll grant you
18:41:29  <peter1138> TrueBrain, sit down and rewrite everything yourself, basically.
18:41:32  <andythenorth> but seriously
18:41:35  <andythenorth> ^ that should die
18:41:37  <andythenorth> mostly
18:41:49  <criador15> killit
18:41:50  <andythenorth> oh yeah, you mentione the black book, wtf even is that?
18:42:03  <TrueBrain> it was an ill attempt years ago to create a "development" section
18:42:07  <TrueBrain> it was a big hit back than
18:42:09  <TrueBrain> then?
18:42:11  <TrueBrain> and someone ran with it
18:42:28  <TrueBrain> believe it was when namespaces were just introduced
18:42:30  <andythenorth> I am going scorched earth
18:42:35  <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: there's another tipping point when you get to the size of wikipedia, where the core group is like "we assume everything worthwile is already included, so new entries must by default be irrelevant"
18:42:40  <andythenorth> I will also save things tthat need moved to our own docs in .md
18:42:44  <andythenorth> so this, kill?
18:42:51  <andythenorth> in fact, I just kill things
18:43:16  <TrueBrain> there is a lot of shadow-bookkeeping :D
18:43:26  <andythenorth> < you can see what I do there, revert if you disagree tbh
18:43:33  <criador15> this looks like the developers task list
18:43:53  <andythenorth> it's bollocks
18:43:56  <andythenorth> nobody cares about it :)
18:44:17  <criador15> let it burn
18:44:19  <andythenorth> how do I just delete a page?
18:44:28  <criador15> you have to use FTP
18:44:35  <criador15> lol
18:44:42  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: you should rewrite that page detailing how we use github, and prepare searches for tickets with tags like "good first issue"
18:44:47  <TrueBrain> owh, right, we also have translations on wiki
18:44:48  <andythenorth> oh I can't edit
18:44:53  <TrueBrain> did that ever became a thing?
18:44:57  <andythenorth> I don't have permissions
18:45:03  <LordAro> TrueBrain: very much so
18:45:08  <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: i'm pretty sure translations exist
18:45:18  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: TBH that sounds like more work
18:45:22  <andythenorth> and more maintenance
18:45:28  <andythenorth> why don't we stop laying traps for future us?
18:45:40  <criador15> laying traps is fun
18:45:49  <andythenorth> the only reason someone finds this page is because google indexes it because we put supposedly useful info on it
18:45:49  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the point of that would be that people can get an overview, without having actual data on the wiki that needs maintained
18:45:52  <TrueBrain> LordAro: for OpenTTD, I meant ofc
18:45:53  <TrueBrain> ?
18:46:01  <LordAro> TrueBrain: for the wiki? yes
18:46:09  <andythenorth> but if we stop creating junk and spam, google will index the relevant maintained pages
18:46:12  <TrueBrain> never understood how you keep translations up-to-date :)
18:46:14  <andythenorth> instead of the fake ones
18:46:18  <LordAro> i'd say >75% of the pages are translations
18:46:20  <TrueBrain> but it is nice if it is used :)
18:46:28  <LordAro> TrueBrain: up to the translator usually
18:46:35  <andythenorth> can someone increase my wiki privileges?
18:46:35  <LordAro> just like all other translations
18:47:06  <TrueBrain> yeah yeah andythenorth, was already doing that :P
18:47:16  <TrueBrain> just takes for ever to login
18:47:19  <TrueBrain> and find the things to change
18:47:20  <andythenorth> thx :)
18:47:33  <andythenorth> lol:
18:47:45  <andythenorth> apparently that's something we're working on
18:47:49  <andythenorth> seriously, fuck wikis
18:47:53  <andythenorth> they're too cheap to add to
18:47:57  <andythenorth> and too expensive to maintain
18:48:09  <criador15> what i pass here GSCompanyMode::GSCompanyMode()?
18:48:31  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: you have all the power you can ever need
18:48:33  <TrueBrain> don't abuse it plz :P
18:48:38  <andythenorth> there's always undo
18:49:04  <TrueBrain> well .. you can press buttons that don't havei undo :P
18:49:30  <criador15> yeah, like born
18:49:31  <TrueBrain> wait, this should be enough
18:49:36  <TrueBrain> you might have to relog btw
18:50:05  <criador15> like ctrl+s and alt+f4
18:51:12  <TrueBrain> <- what is the language 'mp' doing there?
18:51:50  <criador15> lol
18:51:57  <LordAro> TrueBrain: "main page in the current language", i think
18:52:16  <TrueBrain> it looks very odd
18:52:23  <LordAro> it does
18:52:28  <andythenorth> hmm deleting is rocket science
18:52:31  <andythenorth> there's no button for it
18:52:46  <TrueBrain> which page?
18:52:55  <andythenorth>
18:53:04  <andythenorth> media wiki docs say I need to be sysop
18:53:17  <Wolf01> Don't delete wiki pagess, redirect
18:53:21  <TrueBrain> press the down arrow
18:53:34  <TrueBrain> you do? Hmm
18:53:38  <criador15> make a deleted page, and redirect all to it
18:53:53  <andythenorth> seems like you all know more about wikis than me
18:53:58  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: so now you don't have any more excuses
18:53:59  <andythenorth> I just want to draw trains tbh, but eh
18:54:02  <andythenorth> work has to be done first
18:54:10  <TrueBrain> you see the dropdown now?
18:54:33  <andythenorth> TrueBrain: no
18:54:38  <peter1138> 18:53 < andythenorth> I just want to draw trains tbh, but eh
18:54:39  <TrueBrain> logout + login?
18:54:40  <andythenorth> I logged out and in
18:54:44  <peter1138> You are basically procrastinating...
18:54:50  <andythenorth> nope
18:54:58  <criador15> yep
18:55:03  <andythenorth> I am basically trying to find a solution to why nml docs are shit
18:55:07  <andythenorth> as I have to write some
18:55:26  <andythenorth> and I hate the current set up
18:55:41  <TrueBrain> andythenorth:
18:55:43  <TrueBrain> you should see that
18:56:59  <andythenorth> TrueBrain:
18:56:59  <TrueBrain> its hidden as ....
18:57:07  <TrueBrain> before you hit edit
18:57:12  <TrueBrain> go back one page
18:57:58  <andythenorth>
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18:58:18  <andythenorth> where do you change my setttings?
18:58:27  <TrueBrain> you have a different style .. :o
18:58:27  <andythenorth> isn't the wiki user database quite broken>?
18:58:49  <andythenorth> maybe that was newgrf wiki
18:59:16  <criador15> maybe you are using mods
18:59:51  <criador15> hey, there are less language options now
19:00:06  <criador15> before was 5, now 2 plus mp
19:01:06  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: meh, seems LDAP is cached
19:01:49  <criador15> someone can help me with GSCompanyMode?
19:02:18  <criador15> local playerCompany = GSCompanyMode(0); this dont work
19:02:42  <TrueBrain> lol
19:02:44  <TrueBrain> I could manually add you
19:02:49  <TrueBrain> mediawiki and ldap integration
19:02:51  <TrueBrain> it is hilarious
19:02:53  <TrueBrain> try now andythenorth
19:03:04  *** Alberth has left #openttd
19:03:18  <criador15> bye alberth o/
19:03:35  <andythenorth> TrueBrain: \o/
19:04:33  <criador15> whoa whoa whoa! looks the magic
19:04:40  <criador15> nostalig <3
19:04:49  <criador15> nostalgic*
19:07:04  <andythenorth> anyone know how to redirect a wiki page?
19:07:09  <LordAro> andythenorth: ...why have you created a "Deleted" page?
19:07:16  <LordAro> that's not how this works at all
19:07:18  <andythenorth> trying to learn to wiki
19:07:22  <LordAro> don't do that
19:07:30  <TrueBrain> stop saying what not to do, start saying what to do :)
19:07:34  <LordAro> if you want to delete something, delete it
19:08:01  <andythenorth> yeah it was suggested I don't
19:08:10  <andythenorth> and mediwiki suggest I should move it to Deleted
19:08:16  <criador15> its better redirect than a broken link
19:08:16  <LordAro> but it's something like #REDIRECT some_page, i think
19:08:34  <LordAro> criador15: if something is being deleted, it shouldn't have any broken links
19:08:49  <LordAro>
19:08:55  <criador15> thats not how links works
19:09:02  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: if the chief says to delete it, delete it :P
19:09:11  <criador15> wiki have 404 pages too
19:09:15  <LordAro> sorry, if something is being deleted, it shouldn't have any links to be broken
19:09:21  <andythenorth> do we have a copy-paste bock for deprecation warnings?
19:09:32  <andythenorth> like a 'this is all out of date'
19:09:37  <andythenorth> red block or something
19:09:40  <LordAro> there is a template somewhere, iirc
19:10:07  <LordAro> Template:Outdated, in fact
19:10:11  <andythenorth> this?
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19:11:21  <andythenorth>
19:11:28  <andythenorth> ??
19:11:46  <TrueBrain> just delete that page
19:11:49  <TrueBrain> 10 years out of date ..
19:12:08  <TrueBrain> good way to test if that keeps history or not :P
19:12:20  <LordAro> this too
19:12:35  <LordAro> in fact, start by going through
19:12:38  <andythenorth> we have a UI style guide
19:12:46  <LordAro> (there are lots of helpful links in )
19:12:48  <andythenorth> I bet that's been used at least once
19:13:15  <TrueBrain> what a shitty pages, those deleted pages
19:13:15  <TrueBrain> lol
19:13:15  <andythenorth> eh this is great
19:13:29  <andythenorth> also this
19:13:56  <andythenorth>
19:14:12  <andythenorth>
19:14:43  <andythenorth> yeah actually I now regret this a bit
19:14:47  <andythenorth> as always in a project
19:14:48  <LordAro> listing pages isn't all that helpful
19:14:53  <andythenorth> no
19:14:55  <andythenorth> I agree
19:15:40  <andythenorth> I am a bit lost now, there is so much stuff here
19:15:49  <andythenorth> and presumably lots of people find it really useful?
19:15:55  <andythenorth> like, is this how you all learnt to develop?
19:16:02  <LordAro> there are definitely useful pages in there
19:16:06  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TheHendla commented on issue #6682: menu bars disappear if enable windows screen scaling on high dpi monitors
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19:19:29  <andythenorth> what is this?
19:19:36  <andythenorth> nope wrong link
19:19:47  <andythenorth> that was instead of svn?
19:19:51  <TrueBrain> that is freaking old :D
19:19:57  <TrueBrain> haha, that still exists? Holy crap
19:20:07  <LordAro> well it doesn't load
19:20:09  <TrueBrain> back in the old old old old OLD days, the way to inform people on IRC about SubVersion commits
19:20:14  <LordAro> did 2 concurrent users kill it?
19:20:15  <TrueBrain> was via CIA (really terrible name)
19:20:29  <TrueBrain> it was really popular
19:20:41  <TrueBrain> like ... every IRC channel that did development had CIA-1..9 in there
19:20:46  <andythenorth> yeah look
19:20:49  <TrueBrain> but .. it broke .. and nobody was home
19:20:51  <andythenorth> I can clean up the simple stuff
19:20:53  <andythenorth> but this black book
19:20:55  <andythenorth> NFI
19:20:56  <TrueBrain> so .. we wrote DorpsGek
19:21:09  <TrueBrain> that is the story of CIA :)
19:21:09  <andythenorth> do we know how many visits a wiki page gets?
19:21:16  <peter1138> How do I make a UI? :(
19:21:21  <TrueBrain> you can see the unique hits andythenorth :)
19:21:28  <andythenorth> if that black book is our main development docs, then it needs to be preserved
19:21:37  <andythenorth> peter1138:
19:21:40  <andythenorth> handy that
19:21:49  <peter1138> Cool, I'll ignore that :D
19:21:51  <LordAro> peter1138:
19:21:53  <LordAro> :p
19:21:57  <peter1138> Since OpenTTD is a game of the 1990s, it should also have that look and feel.
19:21:58  <peter1138> YEAH
19:22:05  <andythenorth> if you'd like some compiling tools
19:22:15  <peter1138> LordAro, lol NWidgetTree
19:22:32  <LordAro> andythenorth: that page can go
19:22:33  <peter1138> Okay but I've just downloaded a C172 bushkit, so I might go flying.
19:22:46  <peter1138> I think the UseWindows one can too
19:22:49  <andythenorth> LordAro: delete, or redirect, or deprecate?
19:22:52  <LordAro> delete
19:23:00  <LordAro> possibly redirect to Compiling ?
19:23:45  <andythenorth> deleted
19:24:50  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain updated pull request #7270: Introduce CMake (and removing all other project-related code)
19:24:51  <andythenorth> 5000 visits
19:25:05  <LordAro> every single one of these can be deleted
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19:25:41  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN commented on pull request #7165: [core] Implement SmallVector using std::vector
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19:25:52  <TrueBrain> LordAro: you can now do that yourself :D
19:25:59  <LordAro> :o
19:26:18  <TrueBrain> <- can we remove that too? :P
19:26:18  <peter1138> Is the std::vector stuff in a usable state?
19:26:41  <TrueBrain> LordAro: yeah, you telling someone else what to remove didn't sound productive, so I thought, I can fix that :)
19:26:49  <LordAro> TrueBrain: :)
19:27:24  <LordAro> peter1138: it's pretty much ready to merge, not including existing comments
19:28:07  * andythenorth deleting categories
19:28:23  <LordAro> ok, i shall delete the unused templates :)
19:28:58  <peter1138> Quick question, is any part of NewGRF stations relevant to bus/truck stops, docks and airports?
19:29:05  <michi_cc> It would make some sense to have development related info (Coding style, commit style, whatever) on GitHub. I don't really know all the GitHub stuff though, no clue if GitHub Wiki, Pages or whatever there else is, is the right solution.
19:29:08  <peter1138> I notice that airports have their own airport spec and airport tile spec.
19:29:33  <peter1138> I'm thinking about renaming the newgrf station stuff to refer to trains explicitly.
19:29:47  <TrueBrain> michi_cc: that is possible. Question is, do we want that many places information is at. Possibly it is also good to have in the repository itself? But yeah .. something like that would be good in my opinion too :)
19:30:28  <andythenorth> LordAro:
19:30:39  <peter1138> But for now I'll just work on docks :p
19:30:47  <LordAro> :)
19:30:52  <TrueBrain> trying to download ICC is fun
19:30:58  <michi_cc> If we don't but it visible on GitHub, we'd need a bug link to the wiki. I don't think you can assume somebody looking on GH to contribute will know to search the wiki for the coding style.
19:31:07  <andythenorth> TrueBrain: michi_cc I am thinking that a set of simple .md docs for development is useful
19:31:15  <andythenorth> ideally rendered to html
19:31:17  <LordAro> TrueBrain: i can't seem to delete anything still - only got Move & Watch in my dropdown. I have logged out and in again (twice)
19:31:30  <michi_cc> Subtract the typos from the last message.
19:31:46  <TrueBrain> LordAro: LordAro is your username, not?
19:31:52  <LordAro> yup
19:31:55  <TrueBrain> michi_cc: now I have an empty message :P (j/k)
19:32:35  <TrueBrain> LordAro: try again
19:32:37  <LordAro> though i think it's "Lord Aro" in the LDAP side, if that complicates things
19:32:39  <TrueBrain> LDAP syncs are .. weird
19:32:59  <TrueBrain> LordAro: spaces are not possible, so no :P
19:33:24  <LordAro> TrueBrain: no dice
19:35:24  <TrueBrain> I hate mediawiki ... :( (sorry, but it is horrible to maintain)
19:35:28  <TrueBrain> I add you, you disapear
19:35:30  <TrueBrain> I mean .. wtf
19:35:36  <LordAro> heh
19:36:25  <TrueBrain> I added you AGAIN
19:36:28  <TrueBrain> see if it sticks this time
19:36:30  <TrueBrain> dont relog
19:36:31  <TrueBrain> just use it :P
19:36:36  <LordAro> TrueBrain: aha
19:36:44  <LordAro> what happens if i relog? :p
19:36:53  <TrueBrain> till the next sync, you lose your rights again
19:36:58  <TrueBrain> seems the LDAP is cached, for .... N time
19:37:03  <andythenorth> presumably, this is more accurate than github releases?
19:38:08  <LordAro> andythenorth: i think it summarises releases quite well
19:38:23  <andythenorth> it doesn't involve clicking 'next' in GH tedious release page
19:38:35  <LordAro> GH releases are all split into betas, RCs, etc
19:38:43  <TrueBrain> I like how 1.8.0 doesnt have a page :P
19:38:44  <TrueBrain> SLACKERS
19:38:44  <LordAro> and summarises features
19:38:45  <TrueBrain> :D
19:38:51  <andythenorth> fuck me, who wastes their life doing this?
19:39:04  <LordAro> and the changelog is there to see
19:39:11  <andythenorth> one of my kids watches a youtuber who just reads out the minecraft changelog
19:39:12  <LordAro> andythenorth: you say such hurtful things
19:39:21  <andythenorth> if I'm in the room I make him turn it off
19:39:44  <LordAro> oh ok, 1.7.2 wasn't me
19:39:45  <LordAro> carry on
19:39:47  <TrueBrain> I like how people also do that with details of resource
19:39:52  <TrueBrain> especially with games like SpaceEngineers
19:39:55  <TrueBrain> like .. I CAN READ FFS :P
19:40:06  <andythenorth> it's a safe way of contributing
19:40:17  <andythenorth> I once had an employee who manually recreated an auto-generated page
19:40:23  <andythenorth> and was upset when I said it was a waste of time
19:40:29  <andythenorth> because of the work that had been put in
19:40:49  <TrueBrain> *installs Linux ICC .. gets .cab files ...*
19:40:58  <LordAro> F
19:41:22  <TrueBrain> there is no executable here ... wuth?
19:42:11  <andythenorth> oof I'm not going and manually removing all those stupid release pages :)
19:42:31  <LordAro> why do you want to?
19:44:11  <andythenorth> because it's junk
19:44:19  <LordAro> why?
19:44:20  <andythenorth> anyway, if we can get our info out of the wiki
19:44:24  <andythenorth> I can ignore the junk
19:44:30  <LordAro> it summarises releases
19:44:36  <LordAro> nothing else does that
19:44:45  <andythenorth> eh?
19:45:24  <andythenorth> I refer to this :)
19:45:30  <andythenorth> which is a copy-paste of the changelog
19:45:39  <LordAro> summarises features, links to bug reports, groups betas, RCs & releases together
19:45:39  <andythenorth> it's teaching the wrong behaviours
19:46:10  <TrueBrain> "Download size 4237 MB."
19:46:12  <TrueBrain> holy crap
19:46:14  <TrueBrain> I just want icc ..
19:46:27  <andythenorth> we shouldn't be encouraging manual replication of the changelog, waste of life
19:46:29  <andythenorth> we have
19:46:35  <andythenorth> but eh
19:46:53  <TrueBrain> but the style! THE STYLE!
19:46:54  <peter1138> We have git log :p
19:47:22  <LordAro> andythenorth: maybe i'm not being blunt enough
19:47:26  <LordAro> i created most of these pages
19:47:30  <LordAro> i don't want them deleted :p
19:47:46  <LordAro> (well, created or standardised)
19:48:16  <peter1138> andythenorth, draw some docks or something
19:49:09  <andythenorth> peter1138:
19:49:31  <peter1138> That was quick but...
19:49:40  <andythenorth> you want better? :P
19:49:54  <TrueBrain> kill one's darlings
19:49:54  <TrueBrain> (idiomatic) To destroy, especially with conflicted motives, things or persons of which one is fond.
19:50:00  <TrueBrain> I like it reads "or persons" :D
19:50:08  <andythenorth> I love nothing more than deleting my own work
19:50:10  <andythenorth> freedom!
19:50:12  <andythenorth> karma!
19:50:40  <andythenorth> peter1138:
19:50:55  <andythenorth> it's almost like I was waiting for you
19:51:03  <peter1138> Hmm.
19:51:28  <andythenorth> someone made a really nice docks grf somewhere in forums
19:51:30  * andythenorth looks
19:52:06  <andythenorth>
19:52:16  <andythenorth>
19:52:21  <andythenorth> second link better
19:52:56  <peter1138> chips custom docks.
19:52:57  <peter1138> Hmm
19:53:03  <TrueBrain> pretty
19:53:05  <andythenorth> yeah
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19:53:22  * andythenorth wonders if paul would make a test newgrf for peter1138 :P
19:53:37  <peter1138> Set via parameters, I guess?
19:53:41  <andythenorth> yup
19:53:52  <andythenorth> LordAro: basically if we can make this simple and accurate
19:54:00  <andythenorth> I will stop proposing deleting your work :)
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19:56:06  <criador15> someone can test this to me? local playerCompany = GSCompanyMode(GSCompany.COMPANY_SELF);                       GSSign.BuildSign(signLocation,"Welcome to PROGRESSIVE MODE");
19:57:00  <criador15> with the respectives params:(GSCompany.COMPANY_SELF,GSCompany.COMPANY_FIRST,GSCompany.COMPANY_INVALID,0) and tell which display a sign via the player company?
19:57:11  <criador15> here none of them made it
19:57:25  <criador15> (show a sign as the GS)
19:58:17  <criador15> please!
19:59:41  <andythenorth> ha
19:59:52  <andythenorth> these are the objectives for OpenTTD
19:59:52  <andythenorth>
19:59:58  <andythenorth> but they're not the official objectives
20:00:08  <andythenorth> the official objectives are
20:00:13  <TrueBrain> wow .... that is one vague "vision"
20:00:14  <andythenorth> this is probably fine
20:00:14  <TrueBrain> haha
20:00:22  <andythenorth> I really like the official objectives
20:00:38  <criador15> sounds like will have a nds version
20:00:39  <andythenorth> TB, actually having general objectives means we can say 'no war newgrfs'
20:00:41  <andythenorth> etc
20:00:45  <peter1138> Shit, I forgot. I can't add newgrf docks :(
20:00:46  <andythenorth> but they could just be in the official
20:00:55  <andythenorth> peter1138: :(
20:00:56  <andythenorth> oof
20:00:58  <peter1138> We can't just add things any more.
20:01:03  <peter1138> It has to be in a vision.
20:01:06  <criador15> so wount be mad max new grf?
20:01:20  <criador15> would not*
20:03:18  <pnda> For C++, I can't get my Include Directory to work correctly. I have it set to $Tool\Includes\;, where the .h file is I want to include, but it can apparently not be found. What am I doing wrong?
20:07:55  <andythenorth> have I upset LordAro :(
20:09:48  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] stormcone opened pull request #7382: Fix: Fix company performance rating calculation.
20:11:07  <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: i know the solution. we need a BIG project manager
20:11:14  <peter1138> :p
20:11:27  <LordAro> Eddi|zuHause: TrueBrain in all caps?
20:11:45  *** criador15 has quit IRC
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20:19:26  <andythenorth> TRUEBRAIN
20:20:28  <criador15> lol
20:20:47  *** pnda has quit IRC
20:20:53  <criador15> unescessary highlight bro
20:21:03  <andythenorth> pop quiz
20:21:18  <andythenorth> how much of this should be in docs in openttd or website repo?
20:21:34  <andythenorth> probably .md, and rendered to html, but format is secondary
20:21:35  <Wolf01> The official objective is only one: remove anything from the game so it can be added back with grfs
20:21:42  <andythenorth> Wolf01: nice try :)
20:21:46  <andythenorth> no cigar though
20:22:12  <peter1138> No, we need to replace NewGRF with something(tm)
20:22:24  <Wolf01> NoNewGRF
20:22:26  <andythenorth> replace it with NewGRF
20:22:28  <Wolf01> *Not
20:22:37  <andythenorth> how about replacing v8 with v9?
20:22:42  <peter1138> And remove all the backwards compatibility.
20:22:47  <peter1138> Because who needs old NewGRFs?
20:23:08  <criador15> o/
20:23:08  <peter1138> I have an issue.
20:23:13  <andythenorth> tell us
20:23:14  <peter1138> I have no whisky :(
20:23:20  <LordAro> D:
20:23:20  <andythenorth> do you have wine?
20:23:36  <criador15> we have cachaça, acept?
20:23:48  <peter1138> I do have wine. Hmm.
20:23:57  <andythenorth> issue deferred
20:24:04  <peter1138> Hmm, should I finish off the white that's in the fridge?
20:24:08  <peter1138> Probably a good idea.
20:24:08  <criador15> drink water
20:24:17  <peter1138> Although it's a £3.50 bottle from Aldi.
20:24:27  <criador15> its more wealth
20:24:53  <criador15> lol man, wine here is more or less 3 times
20:25:25  <peter1138> Hmm, newobjects seem to be either on land or on water, but not both.
20:25:34  <TrueBrain> whoho, cmake also works with Intel compiler :)
20:25:36  <criador15> airplane?
20:25:39  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc approved pull request #7382: Fix: Fix company performance rating calculation.
20:26:08  <criador15> why the hovercrafts act like boats in game instead of airplanes?
20:26:17  <peter1138> Because they are ships, not airplanes.
20:26:28  <criador15> but they run over earth
20:26:40  <criador15> thats not fair with the ship
20:26:48  <peter1138> Do aircraft do that?
20:26:52  <TrueBrain> CMakeFiles/openttd.dir/src/saveload/afterload.cpp.o: In function `AfterLoadGame()':
20:26:52  <TrueBrain> afterload.cpp:(.text+0x6b50): undefined reference to `int GetAircraftFlightLevel<Aircraft>(Aircraft*, bool)'
20:26:54  <TrueBrain> oh-oh
20:26:57  <peter1138> I thought aircraft flew.
20:27:08  <andythenorth> any opinions on?
20:27:16  <andythenorth> there are multiple ways to do docs these days
20:27:18  <andythenorth> that is one of them
20:27:30  <criador15> they could do itself
20:27:31  <LordAro> andythenorth: we have doxygen for such things
20:27:36  <andythenorth> not in nml
20:27:39  <criador15> no one wold complain
20:27:40  <andythenorth> and some other places
20:27:46  <LordAro> andythenorth: ah, NML
20:27:51  <LordAro> yeah, it's probably not too bad for that
20:27:56  <LordAro> GH integration too, right?
20:28:01  <andythenorth> yes
20:28:05  <andythenorth>  ideally, a generalised approach to docs would be better
20:28:09  <andythenorth> less thinking, less debate
20:28:20  <peter1138> Docs just need *writing*
20:28:30  <peter1138> Less faffing about with where it will live.
20:28:38  <LordAro> also that
20:28:39  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc merged pull request #7382: Fix: Fix company performance rating calculation.
20:28:43  <LordAro> bikeshedding is strong today
20:28:45  <andythenorth> yeah I am +1 to that, but I am figuring out how they connect up
20:29:23  <peter1138> I'm thinking the orientation stuff in newobjects is just a faff that docks shouldn't deal with.
20:29:28  <andythenorth> if I just start moving bits of wiki to website, someone is going to say 'you have no plan'
20:29:31  <peter1138> They're either on a slope, or not.
20:29:35  <andythenorth> and if I make a plan, it's bikeshedding :)
20:29:38  <andythenorth> open source lolz
20:29:53  <andythenorth> peter1138: sounds right
20:30:32  <peter1138> A dock on water is no longer water, I guess.
20:30:37  <andythenorth> the nice thing about the website is that we can update general-pupose docs without doing an OpenTTD release
20:30:40  <peter1138> (But can be drawn with water)
20:30:47  <andythenorth> yeah, just draw the water tile
20:30:57  <andythenorth> I do that in FIRS somehow
20:30:59  <peter1138> So, draw the tile.
20:31:07  <peter1138> Let varactions test for adjacent docking tiles.
20:31:37  <TrueBrain> we muted 18 warnings with icc that are no longer needed :D
20:31:41  <TrueBrain> we cleaned up our code pretty nice
20:31:42  <criador15> <@peter1138> A dock on water is no longer water, I guess. press X and discover
20:31:46  <LordAro> TrueBrain: :)
20:31:46  <peter1138> Maybe have a property that says "this adjacent tile isn't our docking tile"
20:31:52  <peter1138> criador15, it's MP_STATION, not MP_WATER.
20:32:19  <TrueBrain> now for the linker error
20:32:25  <criador15> you are talking about in game things, right?
20:34:02  <glx> internally yes
20:34:14  <criador15> can someone please take a look on this? local playerCompany = GSCompanyMode(GSCompany.COMPANY_SELF);
20:34:21  * andythenorth starts jekyll locally :P
20:34:33  <TrueBrain> LordAro: any idea what that linker error is I showed a bit earlier? (GetAircraftFlightLevel) .. I don't understand the code, but also not the error :(
20:34:37  <glx> you just need to pass a valid company id criador15
20:35:04  <criador15> yeah, but GSCompany.COMPANY_SELF is not valid, neither GSCompany.COMPANY_FIRST, neither 0
20:35:13  <criador15> neither GSCompany.COMPANY_INVALID
20:35:25  <glx> 0 should if there's a player
20:35:44  <criador15> and peter1138 transparency settings make the station disapear
20:35:58  <criador15> but not worked glx
20:37:38  <LordAro> TrueBrain: looks like it's not got a definition for GetAircraftFlightLevel
20:37:41  <glx> the usual usage is
20:37:41  <glx> <GS stuff>
20:37:41  <glx> {
20:37:41  <glx>     local mode = GSCompanyMode(<company_id>);
20:37:41  <glx>     <things to do as company_id>
20:37:42  <glx> }
20:37:42  <glx> <other GS stuff>
20:38:07  <glx> same for test mode
20:38:12  <LordAro> i'm not sure how, perhaps it's not (properly) compiling aircraft_cmd.cpp ?
20:38:22  <criador15> none of them worked here
20:38:27  <TrueBrain> I wonder if master works for ICC :P
20:38:34  <criador15> not work local playerCompany = GSCompanyMode(GSCompany.COMPANY_SELF);                       GSSign.BuildSign(signLocation,"Welcome to PROGRESSIVE MODE");
20:38:51  <criador15> nope too local playerCompany = GSCompanyMode(GSCompany.COMPANY_FIRST);
20:39:00  <LordAro> TrueBrain: hmm, that call does use template type inference
20:39:16  <criador15> with 0, not work too
20:39:19  <TrueBrain> its really not-so-nice-to-follow code tbh
20:39:20  <LordAro> try changing the call in afterload.cpp to GetAircraftFlightLevel<Aircraft>(v)
20:40:08  <andythenorth> if you were familiar with C++, but new to OpenTTD
20:40:15  <TrueBrain> LordAro: no change
20:40:20  <andythenorth> which .cpp files are best entry points to understand game structure?
20:40:21  <LordAro> dunno then
20:40:24  <glx> criador15: it should work
20:40:34  <criador15> but its not
20:40:40  <glx> unless signLocatation is an invalid tileindex
20:40:41  <criador15> precondition error
20:40:50  <criador15> is valid, i checked
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20:42:08  <glx> oh it's a constructor, maybe need <-
20:42:18  <criador15> ?
20:42:24  <glx> I don't remember the squirrel syntax
20:42:38  <TrueBrain> LordAro: master is also broken
20:42:47  <criador15> playerCompany <- GSCompanyMode(0);?
20:42:50  <LordAro> figured
20:43:47  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain updated pull request #7270: Introduce CMake (and removing all other project-related code)
20:44:02  <TrueBrain> either way ... rest is in working order, so I am going to assume here it would link fine if not for this one thingy :)
20:44:35  <TrueBrain> if I could understand how this template was used ... I might try to fix it .. but ... a templated function that is not explicit defined, but implicit used from places, in the hope it exists, or something ... I dunno
20:44:38  <TrueBrain> my head hurts no :P
20:44:41  <TrueBrain> s/no/now/
20:44:59  <glx> well forget the <- it's for tables
20:45:07  <criador15> okay
20:46:12  <criador15> all code
20:46:51  <criador15> look for the ´trouble´ word
20:49:33  <peter1138> Hmm, right, UI.
20:50:05  <glx> ha yes don't do anything with playerCompany
20:50:25  <TrueBrain> LordAro: all usages of <Aircraft> are in static functions in aircraft_cmd.cpp
20:50:28  <TrueBrain> that seems to be the issue here
20:50:33  <criador15> why not?
20:50:59  <glx> it's a scope variable
20:51:34  <criador15> opes
20:51:35  <TrueBrain> hahahaha, I forgot I had Allegro installed
20:51:38  <TrueBrain> I run OpenTTD from CLI
20:51:40  <TrueBrain> and it starts
20:51:40  <TrueBrain> :D
20:51:44  <criador15> one line up please
20:52:05  <criador15> this line is to display it when you run the game
20:52:06  <TrueBrain>
20:52:07  <andythenorth> hmm if the website was GitHub pages, I could publish html previews of it from my fork on GH
20:52:07  <andythenorth> nvm
20:52:23  <glx> enclose line 23 to 25 in { }
20:52:24  <andythenorth> oh I could just do that manually, too
20:52:53  <glx> because you are changing companymode for all the script right now
20:53:00  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain updated pull request #7270: Introduce CMake (and removing all other project-related code)
20:53:18  <TrueBrain> LordAro: <- worth making a PR out of that? Or is this solution stupid?
20:53:40  <peter1138> TrueBrain, useful
20:53:45  <peter1138> (allegro that is)
20:54:12  <peter1138> Doesn't that defeat the point of templates?
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20:54:29  <peter1138> Or is it a static-template thing. Hmm.
20:54:39  <criador15> i want just to make a sign using player company
20:54:40  <TrueBrain> it is not a class template
20:54:44  <TrueBrain> it is a function template
20:54:49  <TrueBrain> no clue how you call them
20:54:51  <TrueBrain> never used them :D
20:55:05  <criador15> how i do that glx?
20:55:07  <glx> and you are already GSCompany.COMPANY_SELF so you are not really changing mode
20:55:14  <TrueBrain> the implementation is in a .cpp file .. it is a bit weird code ..
20:55:57  <LordAro> 20:40:20 < andythenorth> which .cpp files are best entry points to understand game structure?
20:56:01  <LordAro>
20:56:09  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain opened pull request #7383: Codechange: fix Intel C++ Compiler linking issues.
20:56:14  <andythenorth> thanks, you saved me a trip to google :)
20:56:25  <TrueBrain> there, a PR; if this solution sucks, I am open for other suggestions :)
20:56:28  <LordAro> i could've sworn i've mentioned this page before, but it doesn't appear in my logs at all
20:56:39  <nielsm> linked from the forum
20:57:02  <andythenorth> have we html archived that page?
20:57:05  <andythenorth> in case it goes away
20:57:25  <andythenorth> he has a 'just take my work' attitude
20:57:36  <glx> criador15: as I said enclose GSCompanyMode() line and GSSign line in { } and use the player id
20:57:44  <andythenorth> someone got a site sucker?
20:58:10  <criador15> like GSCompanyMode{script here}?
20:58:18  <criador15> like GSCompanyMode(){script here}?*
20:58:38  <LordAro> TrueBrain: curious.
20:58:49  <glx> no { local variable = GSCompanyMode(); GSSign... }
20:58:49  <LordAro> shrug
20:59:23  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain updated pull request #7383: Codechange: fix Intel C++ Compiler linking issues.
20:59:50  <glx> and allowed values are from 0 to 15
21:00:15  <michi_cc> criador15: You might also need some Sleep call. Game scripts start during world generation where companies might not yet exists. See the example GS ( for detailed comments.
21:00:56  <criador15> understood
21:01:00  <andythenorth> well you'll have to read the html
21:01:07  <andythenorth> unless I make the weird github pages branch
21:01:17  <andythenorth> and manually update it :P
21:01:52  <TrueBrain> LordAro: I can't really explain it
21:01:53  <TrueBrain> which annoys me :D
21:02:40  <TrueBrain> I also dont know how long ago someone tried Intel Compiler :D
21:03:18  <LordAro> TrueBrain: hmm, maybe if GetAircraftFlightLevel isn't being instantiated outside of that cpp/object file, as its only used in static functions
21:03:37  <TrueBrain> that is ... exactly what I say ...
21:03:44  <TrueBrain> but it has always been like that
21:03:46  <andythenorth> oof I'm pushing a jekyll site to GH
21:03:48  <TrueBrain> so either icc is broken since 2014
21:03:52  <michi_cc> andythenorth: That site is a nice read, but he somewhat misses the point but looking a lot at pools, core/*.hpp and other files, but nothing at all about anything that comes close to gameplay.
21:03:53  <TrueBrain> or I am missing something
21:03:54  <andythenorth> how hard can it be to publish GH pages?
21:04:06  <michi_cc> s/but/by/
21:04:10  <andythenorth> michi_cc: any bids on anything better? :)
21:04:12  <LordAro> TrueBrain: slight differences in how ICC generates object files, probably
21:04:15  <criador15> glx function ProgressiveMode::Modal(text,signLocation){         this.Sleep(100);         local playerCompany = GSCompanyMode(GSCompany.COMPANY_SELF);         GSSign.BuildSign(signLocation,text);         GSLog.Info(GSError.GetLastErrorString()); }
21:04:32  <TrueBrain> well, did my best explaining what I think happens in the commit :D
21:04:40  <TrueBrain> (which you clearly hadnt read yet :P :P)
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21:05:30  <glx> criador15: COMPANY_SELF is not valid there
21:05:41  <LordAro> TrueBrain: nope!
21:05:56  <TrueBrain> :)
21:06:02  <glx> only COMPANY_FIRST to COMPANY_LAST
21:06:15  <criador15> i put 1 and it still not valid
21:06:28  <glx> first company is 0
21:06:55  <criador15> \o/
21:07:13  <criador15> if i am using multiplayer, should use what?
21:07:38  <glx> but GS can already build it's own signs
21:07:55  <glx> no need to impersonate a company for that
21:08:57  <criador15> but i cannot delete it
21:09:04  <criador15> and the player cannot too
21:09:27  <glx> hmm the GS should be able to delete its own signs
21:09:55  <criador15> yep, but i want player input using signs
21:10:17  <criador15> thanks man, its working
21:10:25  <nielsm> you don't need to act as a company to read others' signs
21:10:36  <glx> ah ok so use the company_id of the player you want to communicate to
21:10:53  <criador15> but need to remove it
21:11:31  <criador15> like the Beginner_Tutorial__Game_Script use
21:11:48  <criador15> or maybe i am confuse about the GS
21:12:47  <peter1138> criador15, you can delete anyone's signs.
21:12:50  <andythenorth> hmm, maye I need an ftp site :P
21:12:59  <peter1138> Nobody needs FTP.
21:13:14  <criador15> filezilla should be useful
21:13:19  <TrueBrain> cool, CMake can even generate NSIS and deb ... source tarballs .. rpm ..
21:13:21  <TrueBrain> the list is long
21:13:22  <TrueBrain> did not know
21:13:25  <andythenorth> well I have used GH pages
21:13:27  <andythenorth> it's gone well
21:14:03  <criador15> peter1138 i want to use sign as player input, and the player can only remove the sign it placed
21:14:49  <andythenorth> I could open a port on my router and let you look at my site from my laptop :P
21:14:51  <andythenorth> but
21:15:11  <criador15> best no
21:15:39  <criador15> upload it on a free hosting site and then close when you done
21:16:16  <criador15> disable ctrl keys input and mouse right click, and toolbar and the save site function and you will be okay
21:16:24  <criador15> in resume, dont do that is more secure
21:16:35  <criador15> lol
21:18:08  <criador15> how i know vehicle types?
21:18:27  <criador15> the data, airplane data type, trains , bus and ships?
21:18:44  <glx> ok using a macro for the timestamp thing is not that easy, cmake_parse_arguments merges all command lines
21:20:17  <andythenorth> this page lists dependencies and their download sites
21:20:23  <andythenorth> is that still relevant?
21:20:55  <andythenorth> under "Compiling"
21:21:16  <TrueBrain> missing allegro and fluidsynth
21:24:02  <andythenorth> but we'd keep this in repo docs?
21:24:08  <andythenorth> it goes out with specific releases?
21:24:21  <andythenorth> the website page I'm making basically points to other locations
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21:27:41  <LordAro> it's quite common for project websites to list their dependencies
21:27:45  <LordAro> i don't have an issue with it
21:28:36  <peter1138> Normal and correct.
21:30:18  <andythenorth> is it needed to do it twice though?
21:30:27  <andythenorth> is my question
21:30:35  <LordAro> yes
21:30:48  <LordAro> one is before you decide to download it, the other after
21:30:54  <andythenorth> because duplicating information manually is good?
21:31:04  <LordAro> how would you suggest automating it?
21:31:19  <peter1138>
21:31:19  <LordAro> i can't see a way that's not TMWFTLB
21:31:27  <andythenorth> <a href="">Dependencies</a>
21:31:27  <peter1138> Then link to that from the website.
21:31:36  <TrueBrain> wow, the CPack stuff is really good .. we only have this extra step in NSIS where it auto-downloads some dependencies .. that won't work .. :(
21:31:36  <andythenorth> or so
21:31:50  <glx> oh I just need to insert a marker between each "COMMAND" and the stuff following it
21:32:17  * andythenorth wonders if we can teach GH Pages to actually do something useful
21:33:34  <TrueBrain> can I bribe someone to move the NSIS auto-download stuff into the game, that on first start it auto-downloads those? :D
21:34:13  <peter1138> It kinda does anyway, no?
21:34:24  <TrueBrain> kinda .. the NSIS supports a few more
21:34:30  <peter1138> few more whats?
21:34:35  <peter1138> Oh, different locations.
21:34:52  <TrueBrain> lol, I cannot run the setup because I have a newer version
21:34:56  <TrueBrain> cant even downgrade via .exe
21:35:18  <TrueBrain> peter1138: OpenSFX and OpenMSX
21:35:54  <andythenorth> how do I fork OpenTTD again?
21:35:56  <peter1138> Oh, well you can download them in game, but yeah...
21:35:59  <andythenorth> I'm only allowed one fork
21:36:07  <peter1138> Why do you need another fork?
21:36:09  <andythenorth> sock puppet account?
21:36:14  <andythenorth> because GH pages is a twat
21:36:19  <peter1138> But why?
21:36:21  <andythenorth> it only publishes from master
21:37:40  <TrueBrain> peter1138: guess if we can let NSIS do by CMake, it is kinda worth it .. and a good look at our bootstrap code won't hurt either .. meh, I will toy a bit :)
21:37:48  <TrueBrain> but that might mean we can automate releases even further
21:37:53  <TrueBrain> no more bumping silly files
21:37:59  <TrueBrain> just .. based on tag ... MAGIC
21:41:26  <TrueBrain> right, off to bed for me
21:43:40  <andythenorth> ok publishing from existing /docs
21:44:09  <andythenorth> so that could be an index of
21:44:16  <andythenorth> which could be manually maintained for now
21:45:46  <peter1138> Your own master doesn't have to track OpenTTD's master.
21:46:03  <andythenorth> apaprently not
21:46:28  <andythenorth> means if I make branches from my master, I'm going to make a shit PR eventually
21:46:31  <andythenorth> but that's fixable
21:47:49  <andythenorth> ok so we _could_ publish our docs folder as html more like this. file:///Users/andy2/workspace/OpenTTD.andythenorth/docs/index.html
21:47:51  <andythenorth> nope
21:47:59  <andythenorth> like this
21:48:46  <andythenorth> which means it would be versioned and in sync with development
21:49:47  <andythenorth> nml could do similar
21:50:07  <andythenorth> I'm sure there's a way to do it also involving Jekyll
21:50:14  <andythenorth> but I'm buggered if I can figure out how
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21:51:43  <criador15> arrays in squirrel are equals to in java unless for the type?
21:52:10  <criador15> (there is something like ArrayList in squirrel?)
21:58:40  <andythenorth> should known_bugs.txt and friends be in /docs ?
21:58:45  * andythenorth curious
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22:06:27  <supermop_Home> I cant decide if I want to buy some kind of dongle to plug my monitor into this usb c hole on my surface book, or just buy a new monitor
22:06:43  <supermop_Home> andythenorth what kind of monitor do you have
22:07:06  <andythenorth> ??
22:07:12  <andythenorth> I don't
22:07:28  <andythenorth> I live my life inside 13" screen
22:07:38  <andythenorth> I do a lot of window switching :P
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22:09:45  <criador15> hey
22:10:01  <criador15> why i never use this : GSCompany.COMPANY_SELF with sucess? it always fails
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22:16:14  <andythenorth> lol remember when we had 900 open issues in FS? :D
22:16:17  <andythenorth> happy times
22:23:38  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN approved pull request #7383: Codechange: fix Intel C++ Compiler linking issues.
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23:16:16  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] stormcone opened pull request #7384: Add: Display tooltips on industry chains window even when "Show toolt…
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