Log for #openttd on 28th April 2019:
Times are UTC Toggle Colours
00:09:11  *** frosch123 has quit IRC
00:12:35  *** gelignite has quit IRC
00:19:05  *** arikover` has joined #openttd
00:22:40  *** Gustavo6046 has joined #openttd
00:26:25  *** arikover has quit IRC
00:28:59  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN opened pull request #7549: Fix: Clicking on scrollbar 'thumb' moved position up instantly.
00:29:34  <Samu> oh crap, my ai suffered an humilating defeat
00:29:42  <Samu> desert tileset too hard
00:33:53  <Elon_Satoshi> oof ouch owie AI hurting juice
00:37:28  *** arikover` has quit IRC
00:39:20  <Elon_Satoshi> What do I do when my ratings drop to atrocious in a city?
00:40:07  <glx> plant trees
00:40:15  <glx> lot of trees
00:40:44  *** Progman has quit IRC
00:41:12  <Elon_Satoshi> what do you mean?
00:43:49  <_dp_> Elon_Satoshi, planting trees increases rating
00:44:21  <_dp_> Elon_Satoshi, or if you're not in mp just enable magic bulldozer
00:45:24  <_dp_> hm, though I guess bulldozer won't help when rating is already bad...
00:45:58  <_dp_> so, that leaves trees and bribes
00:46:43  <_dp_> enabling bulldozer just allows to avoid dealing with that nonsense in future
00:46:58  <Elon_Satoshi> you mean i could just bulldoze the town away?
00:47:19  <_dp_> yep
00:47:24  <Elon_Satoshi> ah
00:47:27  *** Supercheese has quit IRC
00:47:48  <Elon_Satoshi> i wonder what happens if i try to carry passengers n' stuff with a helicopter to and from the town that rates me atrocious
00:47:48  *** Supercheese has joined #openttd
00:48:05  <Elon_Satoshi> Btw is multiplayer good for low bandwidth internet and high latency?
00:48:21  * Elon_Satoshi uses satelite internet and only plays chess
00:48:24  <peter1138> Not really.
00:48:32  <Elon_Satoshi> crap
00:48:39  <_dp_> Elon_Satoshi, helicopters or not doesn't matter, any active station increases rating, any inactive decreases
00:48:39  <peter1138> You need bandwidth initially to download the map from the server.
00:48:57  <Elon_Satoshi> i can wait
00:49:08  <peter1138> And then any action you perform goes via the server, so high latency is... not too fun.
00:49:13  <Elon_Satoshi> hmm
00:49:21  <_dp_> but server usually can't :(
00:51:47  <Elon_Satoshi> Ugh why aren't there any high latency friendly games?
00:51:54  <Elon_Satoshi> Besides chess
00:52:46  <peter1138> I remember play-by-mail games back in the 80s and 90s :-)
00:52:50  <peter1138> Super high latency...
00:53:07  <peter1138> And yes, that was sending a floppy disk in the post, not email :-)
00:53:36  * Elon_Satoshi wonders if play-by-mail games are cross compatible with IP over avian carrier
00:55:22  <peter1138> Heh
01:02:02  * Elon_Satoshi surrounds Highland Hills with so many trees they'll never see the horizon again
01:04:28  <Elon_Satoshi> wow they love me now
01:09:51  <Elon_Satoshi> Is OpenTT educational at all?
01:10:04  <Elon_Satoshi> s/TT/TTD
01:25:31  <peter1138> Programming it certainly is.
01:42:55  *** Samu has quit IRC
01:46:00  *** Flygon has joined #openttd
01:52:35  *** Wormnest has quit IRC
02:00:55  <Eddi|zuHause> people have said they used it in education
02:02:55  <Eddi|zuHause> one would imagine turn-based games, like, say magic, would be good for high latency. but the modern online versions of those are probably still coded to kick you if you didn't respond in X seconds
02:06:00  <supermop_Home> go
02:06:29  <supermop_Home> tho kgs its hard to find matches for untimed games
02:06:49  <Elon_Satoshi> What parts of OpenTTD have to be live?
02:07:30  <Eddi|zuHause> Elon_Satoshi: if you place a rail tile, every client in your game must place that rail tile in the exact same tick
02:08:19  <Eddi|zuHause> Elon_Satoshi: so if you click on a tile to build, first this build attempt is sent to the server, the server verifies it, and sends it out to all clients with a tick number when it should happen
02:08:48  <Eddi|zuHause> Elon_Satoshi: your game must pause until that message arrives
02:10:07  <Elon_Satoshi> Hmm
02:14:25  <Eddi|zuHause> the client always lags slightly behind the server for this reason, which is in itself not the problem. high latency will increase this lag, so a) you will have to wait some time for your click to result in an action, and b) the game state on the server might be different from the state that you see, because other people (or town growth, or whatever) might have changed the area you are building in
02:14:55  <Eddi|zuHause> so you might frequently run into situations where your actions fail
02:15:21  <Eddi|zuHause> because something appeared to have been buildable for you, but on the server it failed
02:16:45  <peter1138> 03:08 < Eddi|zuHause> Elon_Satoshi: your game must pause until that message arrives
02:16:48  <peter1138> Wut?
02:17:05  <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: i was maybe being overly simplifying
02:17:54  <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: but my understanding is that the server sends out a heartbeat a la "it is now safe to proceed to tick <X>"
02:19:58  <Elon_Satoshi> If my client locks up such that not even the cursor moves, is that because of server lag or client lag? It seems like a client lag thing though
02:20:06  <peter1138> The client always lags behind the server because the server is authoritative and must execute all commands first.
02:20:40  <peter1138> The cursor doesn't move then it's probably trying to catch up with the server.
02:21:17  <Elon_Satoshi> ah
02:21:18  <Eddi|zuHause> if you have a high latency, then all the server's "proceed now to tick <X>" messages will probably arrive in bulk
02:21:24  <Eddi|zuHause> and the client has to catch up
02:22:13  <Eddi|zuHause> so you will have a stop-and-go game
02:22:55  *** glx has quit IRC
02:23:02  <Elon_Satoshi> not even that, "Your computer took too long to join the server"
02:23:07  <Eddi|zuHause> that even the mouse locks up is a result of the very 90s architecture of the game core, where GUI and game logic aren't properly separated
02:23:36  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, you need a specially configured server with higher lag timeouts
02:24:52  *** Flygon has quit IRC
02:27:35  <Eddi|zuHause> Elon_Satoshi: joining a game is particularly problematic, because while you're downloading the map, the server already moves on, so when you finish downloading the map, you will also have to rush ahead to the current state of the server
02:27:49  <Elon_Satoshi> hmm
02:28:11  <Eddi|zuHause> Elon_Satoshi: it helps if the server is paused
02:29:12  <Elon_Satoshi> maybe i'll just play singleplayer
02:29:25  <Eddi|zuHause> that is probably better :)
02:29:40  <Elon_Satoshi> unless you need someone to help test experimental high latency multiplayer
02:29:54  <Elon_Satoshi> I offer 600ms ping time
02:30:01  <Elon_Satoshi> lol
02:30:08  <Eddi|zuHause> Elon_Satoshi: there once were a bunch of people who played a savegame for 10 years, then passed it around to the next person :)
02:30:29  <Elon_Satoshi> 10 years gametime or real time?
02:30:32  <Eddi|zuHause> game time
02:30:36  <Elon_Satoshi> oh
02:31:14  <Eddi|zuHause> which is like 2 hours of playtime
02:31:41  <Eddi|zuHause> (not counting pause)
02:32:01  <Elon_Satoshi> I think I'm gonna urge hyperrogue to make their network multiplayer latency friendly if they ever decide to add such a feature
02:32:49  <Elon_Satoshi> I wonder how well battle of wesnoth is with latency
02:33:41  <Eddi|zuHause> maybe you should stick to turn based games ;p
02:33:52  <Eddi|zuHause> have you tried CIV? :)
02:35:24  <Elon_Satoshi> you mean openciv?
02:35:28  <Elon_Satoshi> or was it freeciv?
02:35:47  *** Flygon has joined #openttd
02:35:56  <Eddi|zuHause> uhm, that, or regular iv :p
02:36:00  <Eddi|zuHause> civ
02:39:29  *** D-HUND has joined #openttd
02:42:53  *** debdog has quit IRC
02:55:42  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN commented on pull request #7546: Fix #6507: Don't try to load invalid depots from older savegames
04:19:48  *** fanioz has joined #openttd
04:42:01  *** sla_ro|master has joined #openttd
04:44:19  *** tokai|noir has joined #openttd
04:44:19  *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai|noir
04:51:18  *** tokai has quit IRC
04:58:56  *** sla_ro|master has quit IRC
05:17:41  *** Supercheese has quit IRC
05:18:02  *** Supercheese has joined #openttd
05:28:49  *** nielsm has joined #openttd
05:31:38  *** Supercheese has quit IRC
05:33:04  *** fanioz has quit IRC
06:36:09  *** andythenorth has joined #openttd
06:37:26  <andythenorth> yo
06:38:29  <nielsm> morn
06:39:52  <V453000> heyo
06:47:42  *** sla_ro|master has joined #openttd
07:04:26  *** andythenorth has quit IRC
07:12:58  *** andythenorth has joined #openttd
07:13:58  *** Speedy` has quit IRC
07:29:22  *** andythenorth has quit IRC
07:36:00  *** nielsm has quit IRC
07:48:40  *** HerzogDeXtEr has quit IRC
07:54:15  *** andythenorth has joined #openttd
07:57:14  *** andythenorth has quit IRC
08:09:54  *** fanioz has joined #openttd
08:22:42  *** fanioz has quit IRC
08:27:50  <V453000> which one is betterer ?
08:28:23  <V453000> got conflicting answers so far :D
08:36:26  *** Progman has joined #openttd
08:58:33  *** Progman has quit IRC
08:59:22  *** Progman has joined #openttd
08:59:51  *** gelignite has joined #openttd
09:32:41  *** pnda has joined #openttd
09:41:34  *** fanioz has joined #openttd
09:42:53  <Artea> year 2991
09:43:14  <Artea> 1, 10^12 euros
09:43:27  <Artea> 6 aircraft crashed :(
09:45:56  <Artea> good morning
10:04:47  <peter1138> But is it?
10:10:49  *** Wolf01 has joined #openttd
10:10:54  <Wolf01> o/
10:12:09  <Wolf01> Meh, snowing at 60km from here
10:16:23  *** andythenorth_ has joined #openttd
10:16:50  <andythenorth_> so if we had arbitrary tracks on road tiles
10:17:03  <andythenorth_> I could do really big mining trucks
10:17:11  <andythenorth_> single one-way track
10:18:36  <andythenorth_> and feldbahn could have 4 tracks on a tile
10:19:55  <andythenorth_> cargo transport rate per tile is key game mechanic :D
10:22:22  <peter1138> Yeah but how?
10:25:20  *** frosch123 has joined #openttd
10:26:30  <andythenorth_> dunno :)
10:26:33  <andythenorth_> biab
10:29:30  *** andythenorth_ has quit IRC
10:30:01  *** andythenorth_ has joined #openttd
10:30:34  *** Alberth has joined #openttd
10:30:34  *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Alberth
10:35:20  *** andythenorth_ has quit IRC
10:36:20  *** Speedy` has joined #openttd
11:06:56  *** Thedarkb-T60 has quit IRC
11:08:03  <peter1138> So a road type lists what lane combos it supports?
11:08:14  <peter1138> Hmm.
11:08:37  <Wolf01> Hmm
11:08:54  <frosch123> merging rail and roadtypes into one?
11:09:01  <peter1138> No.
11:09:30  <peter1138> Ideas for more than just two lanes.
11:10:03  * Wolf01 with Eddi's voice: state machine
11:10:20  <peter1138> Yes, that's lovely.
11:10:26  <peter1138> Guess what. That's what we need to define.
11:10:35  <peter1138> Just saying "state machine" doesn't make it happen.
11:11:11  <Wolf01> I would make one way roads make use of both lanes first
11:11:18  <frosch123> i guess then we need extra-zoom for world coordinates
11:11:42  <peter1138> Wolf01, that's pretty orthogonal to this.
11:12:21  <peter1138> frosch123, possibly, possibly not.
11:12:23  <Wolf01> Yes, you need to change the same bits of code
11:12:44  <peter1138> Wolf01, yeah, so you'd be doing it twice.
11:13:04  <Wolf01> Or at steps
11:14:08  <peter1138> Wolf01, but without thinking ahead as to the final solution, you end up with a half-assed interim that limits your final solution, or at least requires a load of otherwise unnecessary conversion.
11:14:27  <Wolf01> Yes, that's what happened with NRT
11:14:32  <peter1138> So you might have a good solution that works, only for it to be ripped out again.
11:16:13  <Wolf01> We need to define a fully flexible system which also allow dedicated lanes and how to assign them, the interface might be really complicate
11:19:11  <Wolf01> And, which will be the target? From 1 lane per tile to 4 lanes per tile?
11:22:18  <peter1138> frosch123, current lanes are at position 5 and 9, that leaves some room.
11:23:25  <frosch123> you have less room on horizontal and vertical tracks or curves
11:24:00  <frosch123> but i see andy's strategy to draw less pixels :p
11:34:36  <Artea> yeahhhhhh
11:34:43  <Artea> year 2999
11:34:52  <Artea> 1015 years has pass :D
11:43:32  <peter1138> There's just enough room for 'curves'
11:44:54  *** Gumle2 has joined #openttd
11:53:45  <peter1138> Wolf01, any further thoughts on that?
11:53:59  *** chomwitt has joined #openttd
11:58:07  * Artea invites peter to try year 3001 and 818,100,000 euros loan
11:59:39  <Wolf01> Different speed limits per lane
12:00:11  *** andythenorth_ has joined #openttd
12:01:37  *** sla_ro|master has quit IRC
12:02:12  <Wolf01> Also... diagonal roads, while we are at it
12:03:00  <Wolf01> Only introduced by grfs
12:03:16  *** andythenorth_ has quit IRC
12:03:36  <Wolf01> He flew panicked?
12:11:31  *** gelignite has quit IRC
12:13:42  *** fanioz has quit IRC
12:16:33  *** fanioz has joined #openttd
12:39:34  <peter1138> The issue with diagonal roads is the transitions.
12:40:11  *** Samu has joined #openttd
12:41:11  *** HerzogDeXtEr has joined #openttd
12:42:28  *** Thedarkb-T60 has joined #openttd
12:43:18  <peter1138> Bah, managed to get a blister on my hand from 40 minutes work :p
12:43:29  *** andythenorth has joined #openttd
12:44:59  <andythenorth> yo
12:46:04  * Artea on Infected Mushroom - I Wish (Accoustic Live Remix) @
12:46:40  <andythenorth> so the problem is how to define a list of directed edges between points on a tile?
12:47:07  <andythenorth> isn't defining vectors on a 2D plane a well solved problem?
12:47:28  <peter1138> What?
12:47:40  <andythenorth> yes
12:47:58  <andythenorth> where would we even start to define tracks?
12:48:02  <andythenorth> how are they currently defined?
12:48:17  * andythenorth will read src
12:48:49  <peter1138> I love it when people suggest random things and say it's solved.
12:51:37  <andythenorth> usually I say it, and Eddi tells me why I'm wrong
12:51:52  <andythenorth> then sometimes we make progress :P
12:53:35  <andythenorth> so roadveh_movement.h has a load of pairs defined for stuff
12:53:45  <andythenorth> am I starting in a roughly correct place?
13:08:35  <Eddi|zuHause> that's the current hardcoded state machines
13:09:10  <peter1138> So a new "state machine" needs to know how to go from lane A to lane B.
13:09:27  <Eddi|zuHause> these probably need ripping out and redoing with the hypothetical new state machine engine
13:09:28  <peter1138> It needs to know what lanes are available.
13:09:41  <peter1138> And that is about it :p
13:10:21  <peter1138> If someone wants to tackle converting TILE_SIZE from 16 to 64, that's... a big job.
13:11:14  <peter1138> How many lanes do you get on diagonal roads? o_O
13:11:26  <andythenorth> ouch
13:11:31  <andythenorth> diagonal roads are scary
13:11:41  <peter1138> Easy, diagonal roads can't have junctions.
13:11:51  <peter1138> So only 2 trackbits can be set.
13:12:06  <peter1138> If it has 4 trackbits set, it's a 4-way junction.
13:12:06  <Eddi|zuHause> that's quite some limitation
13:12:16  <peter1138> Disturbs me very sprites.
13:12:17  <andythenorth> I can't even begin to imagine how diagonal roads look like to build
13:12:42  <andythenorth> when I try to visualise it, I just get
13:12:54  *** glx has joined #openttd
13:12:54  *** ChanServ sets mode: +v glx
13:13:05  <peter1138> Let's see if I can complete MAP07 without dying. I am... using save/load, though.
13:13:33  <andythenorth> fair
13:15:50  *** supermop_Home has quit IRC
13:16:21  <Eddi|zuHause> we currently have 4 trackbits, diagonal would add 8 more? (4 tile edges)x(3 exit directions)
13:18:22  <peter1138> I think trackbits would stay the same
13:18:27  <Eddi|zuHause> road vehicle movement would have some defined width, which imposes an effective minimum spacing of parallel lanes, but if there's nothing to stop you from setting the lane offsets narrower, the pathfinding needs ways to handle this
13:19:01  <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: i can't imagine how that works
13:19:14  <peter1138> Current 4 trackbits control 2 lanes.
13:19:28  <peter1138> 4 trackbits can thus be used to control 1, 2, 3 or whatever lanes.
13:20:01  <peter1138> A trackbit effectively means road exits that edge.
13:21:07  <Eddi|zuHause> so the trackbit gets ways to define not only lane offset, but also lane direction?
13:21:25  <peter1138> Eh, no?
13:21:42  <Eddi|zuHause> how would it then allow diagonal road bits?
13:21:48  <peter1138> exits perhaps not the right word? road enters/exits/
13:22:24  <peter1138> You just have a state machine (lol) that moves vehicles diagonally instead of around a corner. And then show that... er... visually.
13:23:33  <Eddi|zuHause> there's two problems with that: a) people will want predefined state machines for the most common situations, and b) you need to combine the state machines from the 4 road bits somehow
13:23:36  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on pull request #7546: Fix #6507: Don't try to load invalid depots from older savegames
13:24:08  <peter1138> There won't be anything other than predefined 'state machines'
13:24:32  <Eddi|zuHause> that's quite some limitation
13:24:49  * andythenorth wonders when the world will invent the irc collaborative equivalent of whiteboards, or fag packets in the pub
13:25:01  <andythenorth> it will be carnage, but often words don't cut it :P
13:25:17  <peter1138> NewGRF airports got stuck on state machine definition. Why would we want to get stuck again?
13:25:29  <peter1138> andythenorth, discord or slack probably has them.
13:25:34  <andythenorth> probably
13:25:44  <andythenorth> also, how else can keep up the required rate of rage quits?
13:25:54  <andythenorth> other than over-reaching and making people grumpy and stressed :P
13:26:38  <andythenorth> what's the worst thing we can do?
13:27:12  <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: iirc the problem with airport state machines was allowing a way to write them (in NewGRF) while preserving the author's sanity
13:27:25  <peter1138> Yes. What's the difference?
13:27:47  <andythenorth> what are the available options?
13:27:58  <andythenorth> [newgrf defined state machines | pre-defined state machines]
13:28:01  <andythenorth> [other] ?
13:28:04  <Eddi|zuHause> maybe this is where truebrain comes in and tell us we're thinking too closely in existing solutions? :)
13:28:12  <andythenorth> TB is gonne
13:28:33  <Eddi|zuHause> over the jordan?
13:30:05  <andythenorth> possibly not that extreme
13:30:28  <Eddi|zuHause> (does that even translate?)
13:36:56  <andythenorth> if you mean 'is TB dead?' then yes
13:37:31  *** Flygon has quit IRC
13:37:32  <Alberth> I think you can compute them, but it's far from standard practice
13:40:07  <Alberth> basically model what can happen, and where the decision points are, then compute where stuff goes wrong and chop off that part of behavior at the decision point before it
13:43:19  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: yes, that's the meaning i intended. my 30 seconds of googling only came up with origin explanations that i'd file under "bullshit"
13:43:40  <Eddi|zuHause> so i wasn't sure how "international" it is
13:43:55  <andythenorth> yeah I googled to check, but I'd heard it before
13:54:54  <andythenorth> turns out 60w is a lot more than 30w when it comes to USB-C PD
13:55:12  <andythenorth> 30w reduces the rate of battery consumption, 60w charges it quickly :P
13:55:31  <peter1138> It's almost double!
13:56:30  * andythenorth can only think in terms of lightbulbs
13:56:39  <andythenorth> very confusing comparing lightbulbs to laptops
13:56:58  <Eddi|zuHause> one lightbulb equals 10 LEDs
13:57:00  <andythenorth> also BIAB
14:05:30  *** supermop_Home has joined #openttd
14:15:49  *** Alberth has left #openttd
14:23:20  <Wolf01> Rise to ruins is giving me headaches
14:46:29  <Artea> MU Online just made me mad
14:46:35  <Artea> died in Devil's Square :(
14:59:54  *** Wormnest has joined #openttd
15:03:31  <peter1138> So
15:03:41  <peter1138> We didn't get far. NRT is still unmerged.
15:03:54  <andythenorth> merge it?
15:10:03  *** Thedarkb-T60 has quit IRC
15:17:16  <peter1138> Ok, how many lanes should be permitted?
15:20:28  <andythenorth> 4?
15:21:44  <Wolf01> 4
15:22:52  *** sla_ro|master has joined #openttd
15:26:43  *** D-HUND is now known as debdog
15:26:53  <Artea> I can see someone already asked for mp3/ogg player
15:30:32  <peter1138> Nah, 7 different lanes.
15:30:52  <peter1138> Then it's possible to have 3 centred.
15:31:13  <peter1138> Of course more than 4 at one time would be a little... cramped.
15:32:13  <peter1138> Also means you can have 1 centred lane.
15:33:11  <Artea> <andythenorth_> bbl, phone irc :p
15:33:12  <Artea> haha
15:34:27  <Artea> 2 years ago
15:34:35  <andythenorth> 7 makes sense
15:34:43  <andythenorth> but it would be weird to use all 7 :P
15:34:50  <Artea> readling logs is funny sometimes
15:34:52  <andythenorth> 2, 3, or 4 on differing offsets :P
15:36:00  <peter1138> So current roads would be lanes 2 and 4
15:40:00  <Eddi|zuHause> i think you should be able to give each lane any exit point along the edge
15:41:19  <peter1138> Possibly.
15:41:36  <Eddi|zuHause> so, existing roads would have the lane configuration like {(5,NE),(9,SW)}
15:42:42  <Eddi|zuHause> generating a state machine on any random combination might be a pain
15:43:30  <Eddi|zuHause> and then we still haven't tackled overtaking
15:45:20  <michi_cc> Eddi|zuHause: So basically you want OTTD to have ?
15:49:39  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] YJSoft commented on issue #7511: Loading font from game folder not works at some windows version
15:51:24  *** Thedarkb-T60 has joined #openttd
15:54:11  <Eddi|zuHause> michi_cc: not quite. what i have in mind right now, is that the NewGRF provides a list of lane patterns, and the 4 road bits on the tile each specify which list entry they are referring to. the tile must then come up with a state machine connecting the 4 road bits
15:54:38  <michi_cc> But traffic lights :D
15:54:49  <peter1138> Yikes, how large do you think our map array is?
15:56:13  <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: how else are you going to have transition tiles?
15:58:18  <peter1138> Not like that.
15:58:23  <Eddi|zuHause> (also, we will need to double that, as road and tram can have different lane patterns)
16:00:31  *** Thedarkb-T60 has quit IRC
16:02:07  <Eddi|zuHause> the other option is prefab transition and crossing tiles ("traffic objects"), then with NewGRF state machine support.
16:03:32  <Eddi|zuHause> which will be subject to serious combinatorial explosion
16:03:48  <peter1138> And this is why we need limits.
16:04:05  <peter1138> Otherwise you end up with 1KB per map tile...
16:04:17  <peter1138> But at least it's a solved problem!
16:05:05  <Artea> (wondering if peter likes Brutal DooM)
16:06:51  *** Thedarkb-T60 has joined #openttd
16:06:52  <Eddi|zuHause> if you allow 2^X lane patterns per road type, you need X*4*2 map bits
16:07:12  <Eddi|zuHause> with X=4 that's 32bits
16:07:55  <peter1138> And that is not happening.
16:08:06  <Eddi|zuHause> just supporting the current one-way roads would already be 4 lane patterns
16:10:59  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm having trouble imagining another system that is flexible enough to be useful
16:11:14  <Eddi|zuHause> maybe you should explain your thoughts then?
16:11:16  <V453000> hm the forums seem to prefer the second one, IRC so far prefers first one :D
16:11:24  <V453000> lesson learned: don't ask people if you want a decisive answer :D
16:11:32  <V453000> what's the opinion here?
16:11:35  <peter1138> Who on IRC prefers the first one?
16:11:42  <peter1138> They're wrong.
16:11:46  <V453000> :D
16:11:47  <V453000> OH
16:11:53  <peter1138> And i@ve not seen anything about it here.
16:11:57  <V453000> is 2nd one that much better?
16:12:08  <LordAro> i prefer the first one
16:12:11  <LordAro> :p
16:12:29  <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, prefabs
16:12:31  <Eddi|zuHause> i would consider a 3rd option
16:12:43  <V453000> Eddi|zuHause: ? :D
16:12:48  <Eddi|zuHause> having the outer engines "rounded", and the middle ones "blocky"
16:12:58  <peter1138> ^^
16:13:02  <V453000> yay, no :D
16:13:16  <V453000> but yeah that would probably be nicest
16:13:47  <Eddi|zuHause> it's an easy check whether a vehicle is the first or the last in the chain, to switch graphics :p
16:14:12  <V453000> yes I already do that in many places
16:14:49  <V453000> I just can't say I want to draw a middle sprite version for every rounded train I have at the moment :D
16:15:18  <V453000> Also the 2nd option would probably be quite weird with 6 engines
16:15:26  <V453000> though, how often do you really build 4, or even 6
16:16:02  <Eddi|zuHause> if you don't know, then how would i? :p
16:16:43  <peter1138> Remind me what the axonometric grid angles should be?
16:16:46  <Eddi|zuHause> if the vehicles are non-articulated, you can let the user handle it by ctrl+click flipping
16:16:48  *** gelignite has joined #openttd
16:17:25  <Eddi|zuHause> @calc atan(1/2)
16:17:25  <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 0.463647609001
16:17:31  <Eddi|zuHause> @calc atan(1/2)*180/pi
16:17:31  <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 26.5650511771
16:17:50  <Eddi|zuHause> is that what you were asking?
16:17:57  <peter1138> Yeah.
16:18:07  <peter1138> Bah, Inkscape rounds it to 26.57
16:18:25  <Eddi|zuHause> probably close enough :p
16:19:25  <frosch123> V453000: second one is way better
16:20:35  <frosch123> engines can be either /¯\ or /¯¯, but not /¯/¯
16:23:08  <pnda> How do I draw a Button inside a Window?
16:23:34  <peter1138> You don't.
16:23:53  <peter1138> You add a button to the nested widget list.
16:24:10  <V453000> ok, 2nd one wins with overwhelming force :) thank you very much :)
16:24:18  <V453000> now I have to rewrite how it draws (:
16:24:33  * V453000 has the code generated from python :))))
16:24:45  <V453000> much andy such wow
16:25:09  <frosch123> do you use andy horse stuff
16:25:14  <frosch123> or invent your own magic?
16:25:56  <V453000> no not that much andy
16:25:58  <V453000> just my own
16:26:01  <V453000> it's not that complicated
16:26:24  <V453000> I only use python to generate the first version and then fix bugs manually usually
16:26:31  <V453000> also the unique switches I write manually
16:26:35  <frosch123> yeah, i expected it to be easier to write your own magic nistead of using someone else's magic
16:26:58  <V453000> so it's just helpful for mass things, but it's not like I press 1 button and everything generates itself and compiles
16:27:01  <frosch123> uh, you edit the generated stuff?
16:27:05  <V453000> yes
16:27:08  <V453000> well some parts
16:27:14  <V453000> if something is a PITA to add to the code
16:27:24  <pnda> What's the button thingy for NWidget?
16:27:32  <V453000> but of course I try to avoid having to edit it at all
16:27:32  <Eddi|zuHause> thats sounds like an antipattern
16:28:13  <V453000> well no Eddi, it's just trying to be reasonably time efficient. I don't need the generation script to be absolutely perfect to every detail and edge case, like if the first switch would end up with 0..0 or something
16:28:16  <Eddi|zuHause> i think the usual approach is to have some way to funnel the potential later edits into the generation process
16:28:20  <V453000> but yes the latest version generates a perfect thing atm
16:29:02  <Eddi|zuHause> well, the idea is to have the edits not lost if you run the generation again
16:29:09  <V453000> that's the perfect world yes Eddi but then you can spend a lot of time on details to perfectionalize the generator
16:29:17  <V453000> not always
16:29:30  <V453000> again, in a perfectly full-scale generated thing yes
16:29:34  <V453000> and I agree it's a nice thing
16:29:44  <Eddi|zuHause> like in CETS i have a way to include hand-written switches from a separate file
16:30:32  <Eddi|zuHause> like, if the generic articulation callback doesn't give the right result, i have a file with a custom one, and that gets used instead
16:30:53  <V453000> right
16:31:14  <V453000> well of course my setup isn't nearly as perfect
16:32:42  <V453000> it's just a different approach :P
16:42:30  <pnda> I don't really understand how to use a Button in a Window. Can anyone give some examples/help?
16:43:11  <Eddi|zuHause> look for an existing window with a button?
16:43:25  <pnda> I did but implementing what I saw there crashed the game
16:43:37  <Eddi|zuHause> maybe tell us more what you did?
16:43:59  <Eddi|zuHause> especially, what you did, and what you think you did.
16:45:08  <pnda> NWidget(WWT_PUSHTXTBTN, COLOUR_GREY) is what I had. Thought it would add a Button. Also didn't see the function that gets executed when pressing from the windows I looked at.
16:46:34  <Eddi|zuHause> i imagine there's a constructor somewhere that does things like specify which text is displayed, and which function is called
16:50:02  <Eddi|zuHause> pnda: the examples of WWT_PUSHTXTBTN have another parameter to NWidget
16:50:22  <Eddi|zuHause> and if you follow that parameter, you should find things
16:50:37  <pnda> Which window did you look at?
16:51:41  <Eddi|zuHause> none, just typed "grep WWT_PUSHTXTBTN src/*"
16:56:30  <pnda> Ah so I can just have a enum for widgets in my header file and then reference it from OnClick and in the WWT_PUSHTXTBTN?
17:16:19  <Samu> round 11 almost over
17:16:25  <Samu> 2 games remaining
17:17:36  *** Gumle2 has joined #openttd
17:35:56  <Samu> round 12 will be toyland
17:36:10  <Samu> who can provide the openttd.cfg?
17:36:15  <Samu> so that it's not always me
17:37:33  <peter1138> Er...
17:39:03  *** nielsm has joined #openttd
17:39:21  <peter1138> Hmm, so...
17:39:45  <andythenorth> eh what?
17:39:51  * andythenorth should read back
17:40:06  <andythenorth> automate everything!
17:41:25  <andythenorth> V453000: option 1 vs 2 is potato / potato
17:41:54  * Artea on Per Kristian Risvik - Evil Incarnate @ Liquiddoom Radio ->
17:42:21  <andythenorth> V453000: make it realistic!
17:42:26  <andythenorth> I find you a RL picture
17:43:17  * Artea is curious about peter's opinion about Brutal DooM
17:49:55  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on pull request #7546: Fix #6507: Don't try to load invalid depots from older savegames
17:51:57  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on pull request #7546: Fix #6507: Don't try to load invalid depots from older savegames
17:52:52  *** Gumle2 has quit IRC
17:55:33  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN commented on pull request #7546: Fix #6507: Don't try to load invalid depots from older savegames
17:55:33  *** Gumle2 has joined #openttd
17:56:02  <andythenorth> V453000: just do realism
17:57:00  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN approved pull request #7542: Fix #7255: Prevent crashlog corruption by only printing the 32 most recent news messages
17:57:34  <peter1138> Artea, been busy... playing it with NJDoom2
17:58:51  *** Supercheese has joined #openttd
17:59:23  <Artea> never heard
17:59:41  <Artea> I used to play in Zandronium
18:00:43  <peter1138> It's an ancient WAD that I used to play back in the day.
18:01:09  <peter1138> Got Hell Revealed II but that's way too hard, even without Brutal Doom.
18:02:22  <Artea> I used to play HR II in ZDaemon
18:02:45  <Artea> I miss Slaughterfest
18:03:28  <V453000> andythenorth:
18:03:31  <V453000> well now what. :D
18:03:42  <andythenorth> V453000: just do realism
18:03:50  <V453000> realizm is already implemented, that's simple
18:03:51  <peter1138> Never got very far with Evilution and the Plutonia stuff.
18:03:56  <andythenorth> V453000: random
18:03:56  <V453000> alternating is just tiny bit more code
18:04:00  <V453000> lol
18:04:10  <andythenorth> I always random if 2 equal choices :P
18:04:26  <peter1138>
18:04:26  <peter1138> Hmm
18:06:12  <Artea>
18:06:14  <Artea> peter1138
18:06:18  <Artea> I done this map solo
18:07:04  <peter1138> That doesn't look fun :p
18:07:16  <Artea> is ultra fun
18:07:30  <Artea> always sprint
18:08:10  <pnda> Do I have to make a comment describing every function even if it's a function used before in a window? e.g. DrawWidet(), OnClick()
18:08:52  <V453000> andythenorth: random is of course another option but in this case I rather wouldn't do that
18:09:01  <V453000> not to mention that it's handled by a rather long series of switches
18:11:51  <Artea>
18:11:56  <Artea> done this map solo too
18:12:12  <Artea> and so awesome having Lufia Song in DooM
18:13:07  <Eddi|zuHause> ... it would probably take me hours to go through that slaughterfest thing
18:15:20  <Artea> takes alot of time to kill them all
18:18:47  <Wolf01> So, 7 lanes, one-way/no-entry bits for every lane, point-to-point exit or point-to-multipoint (and reverse)?
18:20:17  <Wolf01> For example, 3 entry points with 4 exits
18:22:58  <Wolf01> Access ramps too or it's out of scope?
18:23:05  <Wolf01> Bridges, tunnels?
18:23:27  <peter1138> I gave up.
18:24:00  <peter1138> Whatever I think of, Eddi|zuHause comes along and comes up with something way more flexible which just needs about 32 bytes per tile or something.
18:24:13  <Eddi|zuHause> hehe :p
18:24:28  <Eddi|zuHause> i said 32bit :p
18:24:32  <nielsm>  <- okay so the 1.9 releases running slow on macos 10.14 seem to run more like normal when run in fast-forward
18:24:54  <nielsm> which could indicate that the problem is either in the timing or in the sleeping
18:27:51  <pnda> So if I remove the position of a string somewhere and reuse it somewhere else, so from one window to another. Should I rename the string in every language to fit the new name or should I leave it as is (which could confuse some)?
18:30:54  <nielsm> how much movement is it?
18:31:21  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause came up with many problems for NRT :)
18:31:28  <andythenorth> but 2 types per tile was 'enough' :)
18:33:06  <nielsm> if you're moving an option out of a menu you should definitely rename the string and physically move it somewhere else in english.txt
18:33:20  <pnda> Ok, only in english.txt?
18:33:25  <nielsm> since the menus often implicitly use series of strings
18:33:35  <pnda> yes they do
18:33:40  <Eddi|zuHause> pnda: generally, you only change the english.txt file
18:33:43  <nielsm> well either delete or rename+move it in the other languages too
18:33:50  <pnda> Ok, will do, thanks
18:34:40  <peter1138> Well anyway, we don't have 32 free bits.
18:35:00  <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: clearly, we need a more flexible map system :p
18:35:09  <peter1138> Bollocks to that.
18:35:40  <andythenorth> 'good enough'
18:35:48  <andythenorth> this is only worth doing if it's fun
18:36:45  <milek7> 38fps still seems too slow with these timings
18:38:44  <pnda> Will I have to edit strings.h or is that auto generated?
18:39:43  *** Wormnest has quit IRC
18:39:54  <andythenorth> 38fps on any decent mac is frigging slow
18:39:56  <pnda> ah, auto-generated
18:40:20  <andythenorth> I can push through 2000fps easy
18:40:31  <andythenorth> different OS though
18:40:58  <pnda> I'm always at 40fps, Fast Forward sometimes over 10000
18:43:20  <nielsm> milek7 yeah it's way too slow but at least it proves that it should be capable of outputting more frames per second than it does in non-ffwd
18:48:32  *** Supercheese has quit IRC
18:48:53  *** Supercheese has joined #openttd
18:50:21  *** Gumle2 has quit IRC
18:53:16  <andythenorth> I can't do it now, but I can upgrade an external boot drive to 10.14 and test
18:53:54  <nielsm> ah that'd be useful
18:54:47  *** Wormnest has joined #openttd
18:55:22  <pnda> I can't see how to change the font colour for a NWidget(WWT_PUSHTXTBTN). Does anyone know?
18:56:05  <nielsm> tried putting colour codes in the string in english.txt?
18:56:57  <pnda>
18:57:39  <pnda> Can I add a string myself right now for english.txt? I know other files have to be done through the webtranslator, but this is not translating
18:58:28  <nielsm> yes just add new strings to english.txt when necessary
19:06:29  <pnda> Where are the strings for the help dropdownlist defined? I can't find them
19:06:57  <nielsm> probably right next to STR_ABOUT_MENU_SCREENSHOT
19:07:45  <pnda> Using search all files I can only find that string inside of the language txt files
19:07:59  <nielsm> oh you mean where in the code the menu is generated?
19:08:10  <pnda> No, I found that
19:08:33  <pnda> toolbar_gui.cpp:185 is the general function that gets used
19:08:46  <nielsm> line 1052
19:08:52  <nielsm> PopupMainToolbMenu(w, WID_TN_HELP, STR_ABOUT_MENU_LAND_BLOCK_INFO, _settings_client.gui.newgrf_developer_tools ? 13 : 10);
19:09:16  <nielsm> the first string id in the menu, and then the count of consecutive string ids to use for the menu
19:09:22  <pnda> Ahhhhhh right
19:09:40  <nielsm> which is why you need to move the original string away if you're removing the item from the menu
19:09:43  <pnda> Because STR_ABOUT_MENU_LAND_BLOCK_INFO gets +1 for each item in the menu
19:11:20  *** frosch123 has quit IRC
19:20:43  * peter1138 bacvk
19:23:28  <pnda> I removed the button from the top right row but it's still there in a way
19:23:38  <pnda> I already did a rebuild
19:24:12  <pnda> This is the code:
19:24:12  <nielsm> the "broken" space?
19:24:39  <pnda> yes
19:24:49  <nielsm> SetFill(1, 1),
19:24:56  <nielsm> on every button
19:25:05  <nielsm> lets them stretch to fit width
19:25:48  <pnda> thanks a lot
19:27:23  <nielsm> (and it's important to put it on everything, since some translations may have unexpectedly long or short strings for some things :)
19:27:27  *** pnda has quit IRC
19:27:35  <nielsm> (unless of course the thing should not stretch)
19:46:56  <peter1138> Debian Stretch
19:47:03  *** Wormnest has quit IRC
19:58:48  <Samu> round 11 finally over
19:58:58  <Samu> need a openttd cfg for round 12
19:59:01  <Samu> plz provide
19:59:18  *** Wormnest has joined #openttd
20:01:40  * andythenorth should Hog
20:01:42  <andythenorth> but tanks
20:01:52  * peter1138 should... something?
20:06:07  <andythenorth> just merge NRT
20:06:10  <V453000> getbits(extra_callback_info1, 8, 8) this is what does layer drawing stuff?
20:06:13  <andythenorth> and await bug reports
20:06:19  <V453000> from andy's paste :)
20:06:28  <V453000>
20:06:30  <andythenorth> sunglasses emoticon? o_O
20:06:40  <andythenorth> that's layers bollocks yes
20:06:49  <andythenorth> I draw pantographs separate layer
20:06:54  <andythenorth> is batshit
20:06:56  <V453000> yarr
20:07:20  <V453000> I had some completely batshit thing there that frosch showed me, but I don't even pretend to know what it was supposed to do back in the day
20:07:47  <V453000> probably for some incredibly hideous plan I Had
20:09:11  <V453000> also andythenorth [22:06] <@Happpy> Hi v no pax ships  what the  hell
20:09:17  <V453000> unsinkable dude :D
20:12:02  <andythenorth> eh wat?
20:12:17  <V453000> unsinkable sam has no passengers ships?
20:12:26  <V453000> anyway, it keeps drawing a single layer for me :(
20:13:09  <glx> nielsm: seems macos and allegro both use gettimeofday to get ticks
20:13:41  <andythenorth> V453000: there's a thing with register 101 iirc
20:13:45  <andythenorth> has frosch gone?
20:13:58  <andythenorth> if register 101 is used elsewhere, layers fail
20:14:01  * andythenorth would have to check that
20:14:19  <nielsm> glx yeah, I suspect it might lack precision for whatever reason
20:14:33  <V453000> what do you mean register 101
20:14:42  <V453000> item ID?
20:15:27  *** Gumle2 has joined #openttd
20:16:48  <V453000> well I was using item ID 101 but no that didn't help :)
20:17:22  <andythenorth> temp storage
20:17:25  <andythenorth> I am trying to find the docs
20:17:43  <V453000> :0 wtf
20:17:47  <glx> and man page for gettimeofday says it's obsolete
20:18:20  <V453000> well I do vaguely remember I was trying to make an experiment with NUTS and layering earlier and it did not work for reasons I didn't discover ... the layering switch seems identical to what doesn't work for me today as well.
20:18:33  <andythenorth> ok so XXX_FLAG_SPRITE_STACK
20:18:48  <andythenorth> means using temp storage 0x100
20:19:22  <V453000> oh
20:19:22  <andythenorth> if anything else uses 0x100, sprite layers fail V453000
20:19:31  <andythenorth> took me frigging ages to debug that one night
20:19:42  <V453000> but what does any of thise mean
20:19:44  <andythenorth> it's documented though
20:19:47  <V453000> what is the flag :D
20:19:52  <V453000> and where do I see 0x100 :D
20:19:53  <andythenorth> that enables sprite layers
20:20:04  <V453000> it's a flag in the item?
20:20:04  <andythenorth> paste your code?
20:20:49  <V453000> layer switch
20:20:51  <V453000> no flags in vehicles
20:21:31  <V453000> ooh found this in my old prototype misc_flags:           bitmask(TRAIN_FLAG_SPRITE_STACK);
20:22:40  *** Gumle2 has quit IRC
20:24:16  <V453000> misc_flags:                   bitmask(TRAIN_FLAG_SPRITE_STACK, TRAIN_FLAG_FLIP, TRAIN_FLAG_2CC);
20:24:19  <V453000> added this to item
20:24:22  <V453000> doesn't seem to work yet
20:24:49  <andythenorth> V453000: there's a fancy switch you have to use
20:25:22  <andythenorth>
20:28:49  *** supermop_Home has quit IRC
20:29:39  <V453000> what in the hell
20:32:28  <V453000> why does this return the same for 0 and 1 and then something in return?
20:35:32  <andythenorth> getbits(extra_callback_info1, 8, 8) is the var for count of layers
20:35:55  <andythenorth> so I use 3 layers there
20:36:26  <andythenorth> if it's layer 0 or 1 it keeps going up the graphics chain to another switch
20:36:38  <andythenorth> if it's layer 2, it switches to draw rear lights
20:36:59  <andythenorth> broke my brain making the pantograph stuff :|
20:39:41  <V453000> well this is wrong, but there are some differences :D
20:39:48  <V453000> I pasted some bits from your thing
20:39:51  <V453000> not so easily I guess :)
20:41:32  <V453000> I have this from frosch
20:42:08  <V453000> which looks nasty but does seem to connect a lot of the things I see around
20:43:17  <V453000> jesus fucking christ
20:43:19  <V453000> it actually works
20:43:23  <V453000> I was just missing the flag
20:43:24  <V453000> :D
20:43:31  <V453000> in frosch we trust
20:43:39  <andythenorth> frosch's thing makes total sense
20:43:41  <andythenorth> really simples
20:43:52  <V453000> yeah it makes the absolute definition of sense to me
20:43:56  <V453000> :D
20:44:12  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN dismissed a review for pull request #7485: Add: Dropdown build menus from toolbar have icons
20:44:15  <V453000> but it works :) can fully implement tomorrow
20:44:24  <andythenorth> counts up to 4, then stops
20:44:28  <andythenorth> and you haz 4 layers
20:44:41  <V453000> that's the <4 right
20:44:50  <V453000> so if I were using 2 layers, I'd put <2 there instead
20:50:47  <andythenorth> probs
20:51:28  <V453000> I'll try tomorrow :) thing works with 4 now, got it commited, saved :) I'll try to make it work with 2 or 3 layers tomorrow :) thank you super much andy
20:51:32  <V453000> this stuff is bonkers wtf for me
20:51:33  *** Wormnest has quit IRC
21:03:48  *** Wormnest has joined #openttd
21:10:34  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Berbe updated pull request #7328: Improve restart
21:12:05  *** gelignite has quit IRC
21:14:27  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Berbe commented on pull request #7328: Improve restart
21:14:34  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Berbe commented on pull request #7328: Improve restart
21:23:32  <Samu> round 12 started
21:26:01  *** sla_ro|master has quit IRC
21:35:33  *** andythenorth has left #openttd
21:46:56  *** Thedarkb-T60 has quit IRC
21:49:32  *** Wolf01 has quit IRC
21:56:08  *** Wormnest has quit IRC
22:06:09  *** Progman has quit IRC
22:08:14  *** Wormnest has joined #openttd
22:10:10  *** nielsm has quit IRC
22:10:25  *** Thedarkb-T60 has joined #openttd
22:14:38  *** erratic has joined #openttd
22:45:32  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] stale[bot] closed pull request #7081: Change: [Linkgraph] Pause the game when linkgraph jobs lag (#6470)
22:45:51  *** HerzogDeXtEr has quit IRC
23:00:39  *** Wormnest has quit IRC
23:07:04  *** Wormnest has joined #openttd
23:18:47  *** Supercheese has quit IRC
23:19:08  *** Supercheese has joined #openttd

Powered by YARRSTE version: svn-trunk