Times are UTC Toggle Colours
00:01:23 *** Supercheese has quit IRC 00:05:03 *** spnda has quit IRC 00:08:29 *** kiwitree has joined #openttd 00:13:59 *** Wormnest has joined #openttd 00:19:51 *** Supercheese has joined #openttd 00:57:57 *** Samu_ has quit IRC 01:06:45 *** Wormnest has quit IRC 01:21:46 *** y2kboy23 has joined #openttd 01:49:40 *** SimYouLater has joined #openttd 01:50:04 <SimYouLater> Can someone explain something to me? 01:50:07 <SimYouLater> =======StarRaid's NML patcher!======= Attempting to backup IH_AddonSet.nml Successfully backed up to "backups/IH_AddonSet-01-47-57-2019-05-18.nml"! Output : IH_AddonSet.nml File : IH_AddonSet.pnml Backup : 1 Verbose : 1 Opening "IH_AddonSet.pnml" as the main header. Patched src/header.pnml with no errors. Patched src/cyclops.pnml with no errors. Patched src/electra.pnml with no errors. Patched src/quicksilver.pnml with no errors. [K 01:50:56 <SimYouLater> Stupid IRC. Hold on. 01:51:22 *** SimYouLater has quit IRC 01:54:18 *** SimYouLater has joined #openttd 01:54:28 <SimYouLater> How do I join using HexChat? 01:56:04 *** SYL has joined #openttd 01:56:14 *** SimYouLater has quit IRC 01:56:29 *** SYL has left #openttd 01:56:37 *** SYL has joined #openttd 01:57:04 *** SYL has left #openttd 01:57:42 *** SimYouLater has joined #openttd 01:58:09 <SimYouLater> Okay, finally got an IRC client. 01:59:04 <SimYouLater> Can someone explain why pybuild.bat is spitting up a weird error? 01:59:11 <SimYouLater> =======StarRaid's NML patcher!======= 01:59:11 <SimYouLater> Attempting to backup IH_AddonSet.nml 01:59:11 <SimYouLater> Successfully backed up to "backups/IH_AddonSet-01-47-57-2019-05-18.nml"! 01:59:11 <SimYouLater> Output : IH_AddonSet.nml 01:59:11 <SimYouLater> File : IH_AddonSet.pnml 01:59:11 <SimYouLater> Backup : 1 01:59:13 <SimYouLater> Verbose : 1 01:59:15 <SimYouLater> Opening "IH_AddonSet.pnml" as the main header. 01:59:17 <SimYouLater> Patched src/header.pnml with no errors. 01:59:19 <SimYouLater> Patched src/cyclops.pnml with no errors. 01:59:21 <SimYouLater> Patched src/electra.pnml with no errors. 01:59:23 <SimYouLater> Patched src/quicksilver.pnml with no errors. 01:59:25 <SimYouLater> [Knmlc ERROR: nmlc: An internal error has occurred: 01:59:29 <SimYouLater> nmlc-version: v6379:afad0c76c40b from 2017-06-19 01:59:31 <SimYouLater> Error: (UnicodeEncodeError) "'charmap' codec can't encode character '\u202c' in position 19: character maps to <undefined>". 01:59:34 <SimYouLater> Command: ['nmlc', 'IH_AddonSet.nml', '-o', 'IH_AddonSet.grf'] 01:59:36 <SimYouLater> Location: File "c:\python-bit.3\lib\encodings\cp437.py", line 19, in encode 01:59:42 <glx> use a pastebin 02:00:20 <SimYouLater> https://pastebin.com/0MV2SJs2 02:00:27 *** Flygon has joined #openttd 02:01:48 *** Suprcheese has joined #openttd 02:02:32 <SimYouLater> Flygon? Suprcheese? Got any advice about this error with my NewGRF compiling? 02:02:33 <SimYouLater> https://pastebin.com/0MV2SJs2 02:03:38 <Suprcheese> might be like a UTF-encoding thing 02:03:44 <SimYouLater> It was working fine until I tried to complie something just a few minutes ago. 02:03:49 <SimYouLater> *compile 02:04:20 <SimYouLater> UTF-encoding... So how do I fix it? 02:05:24 <SimYouLater> I can convert encoding using Notepad++, right? 02:07:50 <SimYouLater> Is everyone busy, or should I just wait for a response? 02:07:54 *** Supercheese has quit IRC 02:07:54 *** Suprcheese is now known as Supercheese 02:10:39 <SimYouLater> All I know is that I can change encoding using Notepad++. Other than that, I have no clue what's wrong. 02:12:10 <Supercheese> Well try flipping it around I guess 02:12:24 <Supercheese> UTF-8 with or without BOM 02:12:31 <Supercheese> not sure which is better 02:12:40 <glx> without usually 02:16:13 <SimYouLater> No dice. It doesn't matter what encoding I use, it still gives the same error. 02:18:41 <glx> hmm \u202c is not a usual character 02:20:05 *** debdog has joined #openttd 02:21:20 <glx> it's related to bidirectionnal text 02:22:41 <glx> maybe some RTL language strings in your file 02:22:49 <SimYouLater> Sounds like I have a character that shouldn't be there. How do I find and delete it? 02:23:19 <glx> it's not a visible character 02:23:28 *** D-HUND has quit IRC 02:23:45 <SimYouLater> Then how am I supposed to remove it? 02:25:11 <SimYouLater> RTL language strings doesn't mean anything to me. Please explain. 02:25:34 <glx> arabic or hebrew for example 02:26:27 <SimYouLater> I definitely didn't use any language besides english. 02:28:26 *** kiwitree has quit IRC 02:35:13 <SimYouLater> If the language isn't the issue, how do I fix it? 02:36:43 <glx> maybe related to https://stackoverflow.com/questions/5419/python-unicode-and-the-windows-console 02:37:58 <SimYouLater> Then I need to update python? 02:40:56 <SimYouLater> Updating python, let's see if this works. 02:44:08 <SimYouLater> Nope. 02:46:01 <glx> maybe a bug in nml too 02:46:23 <SimYouLater> How do I update nmlc? 02:49:41 <glx> I don't see any commit related to that in more recent nmlc so updating nmlc won't help 02:50:12 <SimYouLater> Then what do I do? 02:54:48 <SimYouLater> I'm trying to work on the Iron Horse Addon, and this issue is preventing any progress... :( 02:56:53 <glx> I can't help more, I know nothing about python or nmlc source 02:57:21 <SimYouLater> $#!t. 03:01:50 <SimYouLater> Posted to the tt-forums topic for NML. Hopefully I can see this fixed. 03:04:16 *** glx has quit IRC 03:08:00 *** Supercheese has quit IRC 03:08:21 *** Supercheese has joined #openttd 04:22:12 *** snail_UES_ has quit IRC 04:28:39 *** SYL has joined #openttd 04:29:18 *** Suprcheese has joined #openttd 04:31:06 *** dwfreed_ has joined #openttd 04:32:06 *** heffer_ has joined #openttd 04:32:23 *** heffer has quit IRC 04:32:23 *** dwfreed has quit IRC 04:32:44 *** dwfreed_ is now known as dwfreed 04:35:55 *** Supercheese has quit IRC 04:35:55 *** SimYouLater has quit IRC 04:36:04 *** Suprcheese is now known as Supercheese 05:10:07 *** Corns has joined #openttd 05:12:30 <Corns> Is 1.9.2 a planned release? What features will be pushed to it and how soon do i have to make a PR to get in? 05:20:52 *** Corns has quit IRC 05:25:46 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Hexus-One commented on issue #7430: Vehicle waiting at station affects cargo age rating even if it did not pick up cargo https://git.io/fj8lW 05:38:33 *** SYL has quit IRC 05:38:55 *** SYL has joined #openttd 05:50:21 *** SYL has quit IRC 05:52:51 *** SimYouLater has joined #openttd 06:02:31 *** SimYouLater has quit IRC 06:06:15 *** tokai has joined #openttd 06:06:15 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai 06:10:32 *** Westie has quit IRC 06:13:06 *** tokai|noir has quit IRC 06:14:21 *** SimYouLater has joined #openttd 06:18:12 *** Westie has joined #openttd 06:20:18 *** gelignite has joined #openttd 06:20:46 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd 06:22:43 <andythenorth> moin 06:22:56 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] MingweiSamuel commented on issue #7430: Vehicle waiting at station affects cargo age rating even if it did not pick up cargo https://git.io/fj8lP 06:33:21 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] MingweiSamuel updated pull request #7595: Possible fix for #7430: when train visits station, only reset time_since_pickup if has room to load https://git.io/fjlA7 06:37:53 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] MingweiSamuel updated pull request #7595: Possible fix for #7430: when train visits station, only reset time_since_pickup if has room to load https://git.io/fjlA7 06:43:39 *** HerzogDeXtEr has joined #openttd 06:50:35 *** Supercheese has quit IRC 06:51:04 <andythenorth> so for docs, is RAIL 'Standard Gauge' ? 06:51:12 <andythenorth> or is it 'Normal' ? 07:16:23 *** gelignite has quit IRC 07:40:14 <andythenorth> oof I now have to learn to draw steam trains :D 07:40:19 <andythenorth> never did that before 08:03:18 *** sla_ro|master has joined #openttd 08:06:36 <Eddi|zuHause> what did you do before? steal them from someone more competent? 08:09:09 <andythenorth> Dan drew them for me 08:09:12 <andythenorth> so yeah 08:10:57 <Artea> Date: 5057 08:10:57 <Artea> Years: 3073 08:13:08 <andythenorth> hmm 08:13:13 <andythenorth> where is V453000 08:13:40 *** Samu has joined #openttd 08:16:09 <Artea> ~bah 08:16:19 <Artea> my laptop cannot hold OpenTTD anymore :( 08:16:32 <Artea> is freezing :S 08:18:29 *** Progman has joined #openttd 08:36:07 *** Wormnest has joined #openttd 08:51:48 <Eddi|zuHause> <andythenorth> so for docs, is RAIL 'Standard Gauge' ? <-- needs more context 09:03:08 *** Wolf01 has joined #openttd 09:03:39 <Wolf01> o/ 09:10:08 *** andythenorth has quit IRC 09:15:32 <Wolf01> https://img-9gag-fun.9cache.com/photo/aA3LG3E_700b.jpg heh 09:16:20 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd 09:16:23 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: I could give you context, but I no longer have a way to publish docs :) 09:16:30 <andythenorth> one problem always seems linked to another 09:16:53 <andythenorth> is there a way to publish HTML any more? 09:17:02 <andythenorth> it used to be just 'rent a server with sftp and apache' 09:17:17 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't understand your problems... 09:17:35 <andythenorth> there are html docs 09:17:44 <andythenorth> they need to describe the rail types for a vehicle 09:17:46 <andythenorth> you can't see them 09:18:22 <Eddi|zuHause> no, i mean the build and publication process has not changed, just the repo url... why can't you connect them for a year now? 09:18:55 <andythenorth> oh because I broke devzone 09:19:07 <andythenorth> in one case 09:19:22 <andythenorth> and because there's no way to publish to devzone from Azure in the other case 09:22:34 <andythenorth> hmm buying web hosting is complicated 09:22:42 <andythenorth> I don't want cpanels and all that crap 09:26:32 <andythenorth> I no longer understand the internet industry :D 09:26:42 * andythenorth considering starting a farm 09:27:54 <dwfreed> rent a Linode (or get Linode to sponsor a machine for openttd) 09:28:21 *** Wormnest has quit IRC 09:28:29 <andythenorth> looks simpler 09:28:47 <andythenorth> not renewable electricity though :) 09:33:52 * Artea on The Offspring - Walla Walla 09:36:00 * Artea on Eskimo - Party Pooper 09:36:16 <Artea> who is the party pooper in UK ? :P 09:37:07 <Artea> the police! 09:44:38 *** Gumle2 has joined #openttd 09:45:39 <peter1138> Hi 09:45:56 <peter1138> That's the morning ride done with. 09:47:35 <andythenorth> how far? 09:48:50 <Artea> hi 09:58:04 <peter1138> Not much 09:58:13 <peter1138> 53 miles 10:00:54 <Eddi|zuHause> that's not even a tour de france etappe 10:04:39 <dwfreed> the shortest stage of the tour de france that is not a time trial is 63 miles 10:04:42 <dwfreed> so not far off 10:06:12 <peter1138> As I said, not much. 10:06:29 <Eddi|zuHause> i'd maybe take the median etappe 10:07:12 <dwfreed> my personal record for walking distance is 26 miles, so you doubled that, at least :) 10:07:46 <peter1138> It's still 1600 carolies of more food I can eat ;p 10:07:47 <Eddi|zuHause> i'd also use metric 10:08:09 <dwfreed> just multiply these numbers by 1.609 10:09:10 <nakki> wait, wasn't peter in the uk? i thought you guys (mostly) used the metric nowadays? 10:11:41 <dwfreed> "Most British people still use imperial units in everyday life for distance (miles, yards, feet and inches) and volume in some cases (especially milk and beer in pints) but rarely for canned or bottled soft drinks or petrol." 10:12:20 <Eddi|zuHause> will there be a metrexit? 10:14:34 <nakki> ah, so the uk is pretending even harder to be an island in the middle of the atlantic instead of a couple km off the french coast than i thought 10:17:19 <LordAro> we have a specific EU exception for selling milk & beer in pints, rather than litres 10:17:34 <nakki> hah 10:17:55 <LordAro> peter1138: nicely done. i'm taking today off 10:18:44 <LordAro> and i also tend to prefer imperial units for distance & speed 10:19:07 <nakki> i guess it's a matter of what you're used to 10:20:05 <LordAro> helps that all the road signs are in miles 10:27:14 <peter1138> And because it was little early and drizzly, is was a solo ride, cos nobody else in the group turned up. 10:30:57 <andythenorth> do you get bored? 10:36:16 *** OsteHovel has quit IRC 10:38:19 *** OsteHovel has joined #openttd 10:49:23 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Berbe commented on issue #7311: Wrong determination of personal directory https://git.io/fj84B 10:49:26 *** Beerbelott has joined #openttd 10:49:29 <Beerbelott> Hello 10:50:00 <Beerbelott> Issi #7311 has been closed by stalebot, but PR #7339 still refers to it 10:50:03 <Beerbelott> Issue* 10:53:08 *** gelignite has joined #openttd 10:54:06 <andythenorth> well 10:54:14 <andythenorth> it seems drawing steam trains is mostly easy 10:54:24 <andythenorth> the shapes are so irregular that the angles don't have to match up precisely 10:56:11 <LordAro> Beerbelott: as long as the PR is still open, i wouldn't worry too much 10:57:09 <andythenorth> 94% Horse 11:05:47 <Beerbelott> LordAro: OK thx. It just seemed strange 11:05:57 <Beerbelott> Have a nice day y'all :) 11:05:58 *** Beerbelott has left #openttd 11:40:27 *** Gabda has joined #openttd 11:45:47 <Gabda> hi 11:59:23 *** frosch123 has joined #openttd 12:02:49 <andythenorth> quak 12:02:55 <frosch123> hoi 12:09:13 *** Gabda has quit IRC 12:10:35 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] JGRennison opened pull request #7597: Fix #7594: Max speed rendered incorrectly in road vehicle purchase window when using original acceleration model https://git.io/fj8Bt 12:20:59 *** spnda has joined #openttd 12:22:47 *** gnu_jj_ has quit IRC 12:24:36 <andythenorth> is it unwise to require GH creds when running make? 12:30:30 *** gnu_jj has joined #openttd 12:31:14 *** gnu_jj_ has joined #openttd 12:31:22 *** Mahjong has joined #openttd 12:34:42 <andythenorth> hmm you'd have to have my creds 12:34:43 <andythenorth> not good 12:36:17 *** Mahjong1 has quit IRC 12:38:56 *** gnu_jj has quit IRC 12:39:28 *** gnu_jj_ has quit IRC 12:45:23 *** gnu_jj has joined #openttd 13:03:35 *** Gabda has joined #openttd 13:22:02 <peter1138> Why would you need github credentials? 13:22:16 <andythenorth> trying to figure out publishing 13:22:24 <andythenorth> GH pages wants a special headless branch 13:22:31 <andythenorth> to which one commits one's docs 13:22:41 <andythenorth> so to do that on CI means creds 13:23:06 <andythenorth> this does not sound good 13:23:13 <peter1138> You don't publish on CI though. 13:23:20 <peter1138> That would be turning CI into CD. 13:27:43 <andythenorth> so what publishes? o_O 13:28:09 <andythenorth> can't remember if Azure generates any useful artefacts 13:30:48 *** SimYouLater has quit IRC 13:34:18 *** SimYouLater has joined #openttd 13:35:59 *** kiwitree has joined #openttd 13:40:28 * andythenorth ignores CI, CD 13:40:32 <andythenorth> it's brainfuck :) 13:42:36 <kiwitree> hi 13:45:54 <andythenorth> frosch123 would it be better to maintain bundles, or replace it, or something else? 13:47:00 <kiwitree> I'm making newgrf train set 13:47:08 <frosch123> i would setup jenklins with docker on devzone and keep bundles as it is 13:47:32 <kiwitree> and I found that accessing var41 via var61 in callback 36 is not allowed 13:47:46 <frosch123> i think hosted ci/cd is too complicated, if you have many small projects 13:47:52 <frosch123> gh is already a pain with many repositories 13:48:00 <kiwitree> Is there any reason for not allowing access to var41 in callback 36? 13:48:11 <frosch123> noone wants to convifgure branch protection/commit rules for all the tiny projects like musa, nml, ... 13:48:45 <andythenorth> no 13:48:49 <kiwitree> I think it does not cause circular dependencies 13:49:50 <frosch123> kiwitree: it's not about 41. 61 is disabled for cb36 13:50:45 <andythenorth> and would we use jenkins on devzone with GH? 13:50:54 <andythenorth> not Azure Pipelines? 13:51:09 <frosch123> repositories on gh are fine 13:51:19 <frosch123> they are no shared resource, most are worked on by single people 13:51:44 <andythenorth> so it's just jenkins configuration? 13:51:52 <andythenorth> to set the remote repo? 13:52:33 <frosch123> yes, pm already does that for some repos 13:53:01 <frosch123> no idea how well pm knows the jenkins vm on devzone, so no idea whether he can maintain/upgrade it 13:53:41 <frosch123> but to me both ottd and devzone have too deep history in their infrastructure 13:53:43 <kiwitree> then 13:53:57 <frosch123> whenever you look for something, you will find 3 earlier implementation which are no longer active 13:54:04 <kiwitree> is there any plan for allowing it? 13:54:12 <frosch123> so, if you are not already familar with it, it may be easier to restart :p 13:54:22 <frosch123> kiwitree: no, noone wants to debug newgrf 13:54:42 <frosch123> newgrf people can't do it themself, and others don't want to 13:55:05 <frosch123> var61 for property callback is a road to hell 13:55:33 <kiwitree> hmm 13:55:46 <kiwitree> ok, thanks 13:55:50 <andythenorth> it shouldn't be needed :) 13:56:00 <andythenorth> what case do you have? 13:56:40 * andythenorth wonders about maintaining jenkins vs. just using Azure Pipelines 13:56:58 <andythenorth> Azure Pipelines annoyed hell out of me, but once I learnt it, it worked very quickly 13:57:28 <andythenorth> but it would have to be given creds to publish 13:57:56 <andythenorth> does Jenkins have the devzone creds? 13:58:02 <andythenorth> bundles / devzone /s 13:58:41 <frosch123> they just have a shared disk, so yes? 13:59:17 <frosch123> you have some controller on the outside, run the compiler in some jail, and then copy the artefacts on the outside again 13:59:48 <frosch123> jenkins with docker would be the same. checkout the sources, run docker to compile it, copy results to bundles 14:00:17 <frosch123> checkout and publish does not run unknown Makefiles etc. 14:00:29 * andythenorth wonders if AP can hit a webhook on completion 14:00:40 <andythenorth> with the URL to the artefacts in the payload 14:03:22 <Gabda> Can I ask someone to have a look at PR 7025? It is kind of lost at the end of the PR list. 14:06:27 <andythenorth> we should close a bunch 14:07:54 <peter1138> Okay but I need to mow my lawn. 14:15:40 * andythenorth wonders 14:15:51 <andythenorth> how to do a carging aging bonus for freight cargos 14:21:46 *** Gabda has quit IRC 14:24:03 <andythenorth> bonuses have to be implemented as maluses 14:24:16 <andythenorth> so if I want to bonus refrigerated wagons 14:24:21 <andythenorth> I need to malus food etc in box cars 14:25:19 <andythenorth> that means keeping a list of all cargos 14:25:24 <andythenorth> and using CB36 to malus some 14:29:04 *** Wormnest has joined #openttd 14:29:34 <andythenorth> wonder if I can reliably do it on class? 14:31:24 <andythenorth> maybe I malus *all* vehicles 14:31:38 <andythenorth> then change all FIRS cargos to halve delay rate 14:31:54 <andythenorth> then applying the bonus to just some vehicles will work 14:32:51 <kiwitree> andythenorth: I need the number of cars until next engine 14:33:11 <andythenorth> do you know the engine IDs? 14:33:26 <kiwitree> like [engine] [wagon] [wagon] [engine] [wagon] [wagon], I need 2 14:34:26 <kiwitree> yes, I know the engine ids 14:39:22 <kiwitree> for wagons, it's okay because var41 can do that, but for engines I can't get the number of cars until next engine 14:39:30 <andythenorth> not sure you can do this in cb36 14:41:43 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: can you think of an implementation of a cargo aging bonus? 14:41:54 <andythenorth> for freight, that doesn't require a list of all known cargos? 14:44:30 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] cosminCos opened issue #7598: openttd: symbol lookup error: /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libiculx.so.60: undefined symbol: _ZNK6icu_6012LayoutEngine14getCharIndicesEPiiR11LEErrorCode https://git.io/fj8Ro 14:45:40 <LordAro> hmm, ICU 14:45:56 <LordAro> incompatible with whatever version of ICU that is? 60? 14:50:41 *** Gumle2 has joined #openttd 14:55:40 *** quiznilo has quit IRC 14:59:43 <peter1138> We don't make 19.04 builds. 15:01:15 <LordAro> "teminal~ openttd" implies it's on the path, which means it's probably been installed via apt 15:01:24 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN closed issue #7598: openttd: symbol lookup error: /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libiculx.so.60: undefined symbol: _ZNK6icu_6012LayoutEngine14getCharIndicesEPiiR11LEErrorCode https://git.io/fj8Ro 15:01:27 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN commented on issue #7598: openttd: symbol lookup error: /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libiculx.so.60: undefined symbol: _ZNK6icu_6012LayoutEngine14getCharIndicesEPiiR11LEErrorCode https://git.io/fj8Rd 15:01:42 *** cHawk has quit IRC 15:01:54 *** cHawk has joined #openttd 15:02:13 <LordAro> https://packages.ubuntu.com/disco/openttd depends on icu63, should be fine... 15:02:32 *** SimYouLater has quit IRC 15:02:46 <LordAro> perhaps they've just taken one of the older packages? 15:03:18 <LordAro> yeah, looks like it, that 18.04 depends on icu60 15:03:25 <LordAro> perhaps the version should be more restrictive? 15:06:05 *** quiznilo has joined #openttd 15:07:26 <peter1138> What version where? 15:08:54 <LordAro> https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/blob/master/os/debian/control#L14 wherever those come from 15:09:28 *** Corns has joined #openttd 15:10:04 <Corns> Is 1.9.2 a planned release? 15:10:10 <peter1138> It should already depend on libicu60. 15:10:20 <peter1138> Possibly. 15:11:04 <Corns> Just wondering how quickly ishould develop any patches i have in mind 15:11:46 <peter1138> Patches for what? 15:12:09 <peter1138> 1.9.2 will not contain any new features. 15:12:10 <Corns> Like, any PR ideas i have 15:12:17 <Corns> To develop for trunk 15:12:19 <Corns> Ah ok 15:12:35 <Corns> Just bugfixes? 15:13:35 <LordAro> yes 15:14:12 <LordAro> 1.10 is currently expected to be sometime later this year 15:14:45 <Corns> Ooh sweet okay 15:17:10 <andythenorth> lots of windows are now odd 15:17:15 <andythenorth> odd padding and so on 15:17:32 <andythenorth> "screenshots or it's not true" :P 15:17:32 <Corns> Is this with 2x gui scale? 15:17:35 <andythenorth> yes 15:17:44 <Corns> Yeah ive noticwd 15:17:56 <Corns> Im on quad scale for my 4k screen 15:18:07 <andythenorth> the aspect ratios are weird too 15:18:20 <Corns> And the rail toolbar padding is paper rhin 15:19:02 * andythenorth BBL 15:19:04 *** andythenorth has quit IRC 15:19:31 <Corns> Are there any irc clients that are "always on" and can save the chat history while I'm away? 15:19:45 <Corns> Or do i have to leave my computer on 24/7 15:20:12 <michi_cc> @logs 15:20:12 <DorpsGek> michi_cc: https://webster.openttdcoop.org/index.php?channel=openttd 15:22:04 <Corns> :0 ty 15:25:00 <Heiki> Corns: apart from the logs, there’s at least three possibilities: a) leave your computer on, b) find a shell provider (there are free ones, but I don’t know whether they’re any good), c) use Matrix (e.g. https://riot.im/app/), where this channel is available as #_oftc_#openttd:matrix.org 15:35:30 *** Flygon has quit IRC 15:42:14 <peter1138> Corns, there is no trunk. There is only master. 15:42:57 * peter1138 delinks Strava from Fitbit. I'm fairly use it is doubling carolies for any activity. 15:59:02 *** snail_UES_ has joined #openttd 16:00:40 *** Corns343434 has joined #openttd 16:02:23 <Corns343434> Heiki: thank you :) 16:02:44 <Corns343434> @peter1138: isnt that the same thing 16:04:56 <Heiki> you’re welcome (: that Matrix thingy needs some fiddling around at first, but after that it is quite reliable (and free) 16:08:17 *** Corns has quit IRC 16:13:01 *** corns_mcgowan[m] has joined #openttd 16:14:42 <corns_mcgowan[m]> Helloo 16:16:54 *** Gumle2 has quit IRC 16:20:20 <corns_mcgowan[m]> Does #/r/openttd have a matrix room too? 16:20:46 *** Corns343434 has quit IRC 16:20:57 <nakki> doubt it 16:25:12 <corns_mcgowan[m]> All g 16:28:10 <peter1138> Is what the same thing? 16:34:55 <corns_mcgowan[m]> Trunk -> master peter1138 16:35:17 *** corns_mcgowan[m] is now known as Corns[m] 16:45:16 <peter1138> No, it's not the same thing. 16:45:44 <peter1138> Trunk is specifically an SVN convention, where files are placed in a subdirectory in the svn repository called... "trunk" 16:46:11 <peter1138> master is a git convention, and is just the main branch. 16:52:21 <Corns[m]> I see 16:52:47 <Corns[m]> I will use both terms interchangeably:) 16:57:39 <peter1138> If you're still using svn, sure. But we don't, so that's wrong. 17:03:17 <Corns[m]> okay master 17:24:43 *** glx has joined #openttd 17:24:43 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v glx 17:25:55 *** kiwitree has quit IRC 17:26:16 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 approved pull request #7597: Fix #7594: Max speed rendered incorrectly in road vehicle purchase window when using original acceleration model https://git.io/fj8EN 17:31:03 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 merged pull request #7597: Fix #7594: Max speed rendered incorrectly in road vehicle purchase window when using original acceleration model https://git.io/fj8Bt 17:31:09 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 closed issue #7594: Max speed string dparam set incorrectly in road vehicle purchase window when using original acceleration model https://git.io/fjlii 17:32:25 <nakki> honestly surprises me to find people in 2019 who program but haven't gotten used to git conventions 17:38:05 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd 17:47:11 <andythenorth> o/ 17:50:39 *** Gumle2 has joined #openttd 17:55:07 <LordAro> nakki: git is by no means the only VCS used 17:55:09 <andythenorth> do refrigerated wagons etc really need a cargo aging bonus? 17:55:21 <andythenorth> or is it enough that they are different colours? 17:56:00 <andythenorth> I've run a test again, and confirmed again that cargo age period does nothing useful 17:56:11 <nakki> LordAro, it is p much the industry standard tho 17:56:28 <LordAro> ha 17:56:30 <LordAro> not even close 17:56:44 <nakki> well, at least in my city's comp sci circles svn is considered pretty outdated and archaic 17:57:01 <LordAro> i didn't say it wasn't ;) 17:57:30 <LordAro> i use svn at work 17:57:51 <LordAro> i know a few places that use SourceSafe 17:57:53 <nakki> i do, too, but it's something that's constantly complained about internally 17:58:07 <nakki> isn't sourcesafe uh 17:58:09 <nakki> discontinued? 17:59:11 <LordAro> when did that ever stop anyone? 17:59:19 <LordAro> but i think i mean Foundation Server anyway 17:59:32 <nakki> ah 18:00:45 <LordAro> but still, i would estimate about half of my developer colleagues have never used git before 18:01:18 <nakki> wow 18:01:35 <LordAro> let's face it, svn is so much simpler to use 18:02:21 <nakki> don't think i personally know any developer who hasn't used git 18:02:29 <LordAro> and as much as i'd like to use git, teaching everyone would likely fall on me :) 18:02:52 <Corns[m]> q: is this intended behaviour? https://i.imgur.com/7dUOExA.png from citymania 1.9.1 client, airport shows max speed as 73km/h even though my planes have 952km/h max speed 18:04:16 <LordAro> nakki: be aware of the "echo chamber" that comp sci circles can be - you're very biased towards people who are actively interested in learning new technologies, and not those who don't want/care to do any programming outside of work 18:05:19 <nakki> yeah i was just thinking about that, people i work with tend to be at the younger end of the spectrum, and most of my friends are from the natural sciences campus of the local university 18:05:37 <LordAro> bet you all like nodejs, rust & go as well :p 18:05:46 <nakki> sadly, i work with legacy java :( 18:05:56 <nakki> at least it's java 8 though, so i can stream away 18:06:08 <nakki> i'd probably do rust, kotlin or scala if i could freely choose though :P 18:06:24 <LordAro> how very hipster ;) 18:06:50 <LordAro> i think the bits of Java we have are still on 7, due to eclipse3 18:06:56 <nakki> heh 18:07:21 <LordAro> my day to day is Ada though, so i always win these sort of contests ;) 18:07:26 <nakki> hah 18:07:34 <LordAro> it is Ada2012 though, which is nice 18:17:27 <Eddi|zuHause> Ada, the language that doesn't let you program ANYTHIG? 18:17:57 <LordAro> hmm? works well enough for me 18:18:08 <LordAro> very easy to pick up, coming from C/C++ 18:18:42 <Eddi|zuHause> i haven't actually tried... just the bits i've seen were always about "this is more strict in Ada"... 18:41:01 *** Gustavo6046 has quit IRC 18:50:45 <Corns[m]> What are your thoughts on autofund being added to master? 18:53:13 <Corns[m]> Like, the autofund button found in the btpro, n-ice, citymania clients 18:53:26 <LordAro> assume that no one knows what that is 18:54:53 <Corns[m]> Oh okay 18:56:01 <Corns[m]> It's a button that automatically funds new buildings for towns (ie it presses "fund new buildings" every 3 months)- you can toggle it on/off per town 18:56:55 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't see much use for that outside these highly specialized city builder games 18:58:03 <Corns[m]> I was thinking that too, but i realised i use them to boost city growth when i want to build larger airports 18:59:17 <Corns[m]> Maybe we could at least let the current fund buildings function simply add to the counter instead of resetting it to 3 months? 19:00:15 <frosch123> what, automatic larva injection? 19:02:52 <Corns[m]> Wait what do you mean larva 19:04:28 <frosch123> when you played zerg in sc2 wol, you would have to do a specific action (inject larva) like every minute 19:04:41 <Corns[m]> Ohh HAHA 19:04:47 <frosch123> later it was changed to do that automatically, and people said it was for noobs 19:04:53 <Corns[m]> Ive never played sc2 but my friends have 19:04:56 <frosch123> no idea how it is today 19:05:24 <Corns[m]> But yeah i reckon it would be a nice change for openttd considering its more casual 19:06:04 <LordAro> if you "need" to fund new buildings every 3 months, i'm not sure you're playing casually 19:06:12 <Corns[m]> For people who don't want to build 4-5 bus stops in a town just to force growth, they can rely on that instead 19:06:40 <LordAro> that's not exactly playing the game 19:06:53 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think you're looking at the right target audience 19:06:57 <Corns[m]> Hm wdym? 19:11:45 <Corns[m]> You're right, I wouldn't call myself an average player 19:12:36 <Corns[m]> what would an average player look for in the game? 19:13:55 <Corns[m]> Also when we add features, who do we cater for? I feel that not all features cater for all players either, as in some can be considered advanced features I guess 19:14:00 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm having two issues with this: including this button would a) send a message to the players that this is actually something you should do, or you're playing the game wrong, and b) the game suffers from too many (somewhat hidden) options and overloaded UI 19:14:01 <frosch123> https://wiki.openttd.org/FAQ_development#What_are_the_goals_of_the_offical_branch.3F <- there are at least 4 groups of players 19:18:54 <andythenorth> usually I need smaller cities :P 19:19:06 <frosch123> fund deportation? 19:19:16 <andythenorth> auto demolish? 19:19:23 <Xaroth> Small tactical nukes? 19:23:31 <Eddi|zuHause> in the event of the cold war turning hot, the west had planned to use "mini nukes" to cut bridges and stuff so the russians couldn't advance quickly 19:24:19 <frosch123> how does that help agains hoover tanks? 19:24:26 <frosch123> oh, right, they do not work on water 19:24:43 <andythenorth> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lun-class_ekranoplan 19:25:06 <andythenorth> I always found the idea of a ground war between nuclear powers odd 19:25:22 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: novelty items which only one was ever built does not usually make for a good weapon in an actual war :p 19:26:02 <andythenorth> 80000 T-34s https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T-34 19:26:05 <frosch123> andythenorth: why? both have companies who want to sell weapons and ammunition 19:26:56 <andythenorth> frosch123: my assumption (probably wrong) is that as soon as you see enough tanks on the move, you just do a debilitating first strike on the other side 19:27:13 <andythenorth> and of course, they know you'll do that, so they have to strike you 19:27:34 <andythenorth> so if there's enough cause to have tanks cross the borders, the missiles will go 19:27:51 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: it was rumored that the russians have some 2000 odd T-34 from WWII leftovers stored in some mountain, ready to go 19:28:03 <andythenorth> probably fine 19:29:00 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: interested in a maintainance job? it's future proof 19:29:47 <frosch123> it's mostly oiling and moving the parts 19:29:59 <Eddi|zuHause> they also had some captured german steam engines outside Kaliningrad, ready to go on the european standard gauge 19:30:06 <frosch123> and caring for the cats, who hunt the mice 19:30:42 <Eddi|zuHause> i believe those are scrapped now 19:31:47 <andythenorth> the cats? 19:40:13 *** Gumle2 has quit IRC 19:47:55 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm fairly sure there are no cats around who witnessed WWII 19:48:07 <andythenorth> hmm 19:48:17 <andythenorth> so which cargos should I malus for cargo age period? 19:48:22 <andythenorth> in freight wagons 19:52:58 <Samu> round 23 finished 19:54:30 *** moll has joined #openttd 19:54:38 *** Gustavo6046 has joined #openttd 20:10:49 <Eddi|zuHause> you make a list of known cargos that fit in each category, and unknown cargos you make some guess based on cargo class? 20:11:52 <andythenorth> that's the implementation yes 20:11:56 <andythenorth> how to choose the cargos? 20:12:04 <frosch123> every wagon can carry every cargo? some have just huge penalties? :p 20:12:09 <Eddi|zuHause> fair dice roll? 20:12:31 <Eddi|zuHause> (return 4) 20:12:35 <andythenorth> an alternative is to just to drop the idea that, e.g. refrigerated wagons have any gameplay purpose 20:12:39 <andythenorth> it's much easier to do that 20:13:13 <andythenorth> I suspect I'm only using cargo age period because the spec suggests it 20:14:51 <Eddi|zuHause> isn't there a refrigerated cargo class? 20:16:43 <andythenorth> there is, but I've extended the idea of reduced cargo aging to other types of cargo 20:16:47 <andythenorth> which doesn't work 20:18:57 <Eddi|zuHause> then scrap that extended idea 20:21:16 <Eddi|zuHause> oberhümer had this idea for CETS that specific wagons get improved aging for all the cargos they can load, and generic wagons don't 20:21:31 <andythenorth> I had that idea too 20:21:41 <andythenorth> it's not possible, in any sensible way 20:21:47 <Eddi|zuHause> how? 20:22:33 <andythenorth> there's no implementation that supports it except either (1) on pathological maps (2) by tracking a very large list of known cargos, and doing some odd malus to generic wagons 20:22:37 <Eddi|zuHause> refrigerated wagon can load all refrigerated cargo. closed wagon can load (almost) all cargos 20:22:39 <andythenorth> 1 or 2 20:23:19 <Eddi|zuHause> hopper can load all pourable cargos, open wagon can load (almost) all cargos 20:23:19 <andythenorth> yes ^^ that makes sense 20:23:31 <andythenorth> that also makes sense 20:23:49 <andythenorth> but there's no possible non-complicated implementation of cargo aging for that idea 20:23:56 <andythenorth> unless I haven't thought of it yet :P 20:24:00 <Eddi|zuHause> why? 20:24:19 <andythenorth> because cargo aging relies on malus, not bonus 20:24:32 <andythenorth> so to give some wagons a 'bonus' the malus is applied to the others 20:24:41 <Eddi|zuHause> refrigerated wagon gets one setting, closed wagon gets another setting. all independent from cargo 20:24:48 <andythenorth> what setting though? 20:24:56 <Eddi|zuHause> fair dice roll? 20:25:18 <andythenorth> I mean which newgrf prop? 20:25:35 <Eddi|zuHause> the aging period? 20:25:47 <Eddi|zuHause> other option would be capacity 20:25:54 <andythenorth> presumably https://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Action0/Vehicles/Trains#Custom_cargo_ageing_period_.282B.29 20:26:04 <andythenorth> and the dice is re-rolled per game? 20:26:06 <Eddi|zuHause> the specific wagon can load more 20:26:07 <andythenorth> per vehicle? :D 20:26:27 <andythenorth> aging period is randomised on build :P 20:26:58 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't see why it needs to be complicated 20:27:32 <andythenorth> you're aware that prop 2B can't give any bonus? 20:27:35 <andythenorth> only malus 20:27:59 <andythenorth> for practical purposes, on practical map sizes, with practical train speeds 20:28:06 <andythenorth> and conventional cargo age curves 20:28:49 <andythenorth> so the complication is entailed in giving a malus to all non-special wagons 20:29:07 <andythenorth> without breaking existing cargo payment expectations, relation to running costs etc 20:30:05 <andythenorth> probably simpler to remove the feature from Horse :) 20:31:53 <andythenorth> I did consider 50% malus for all wagons, and then halving cargo curve gradient in FIRS 20:33:39 *** SimYouLater has joined #openttd 20:33:43 <Eddi|zuHause> <andythenorth> you're aware that prop 2B can't give any bonus? <-- yes, but we're still talking about two static values, however high they are 20:34:23 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: so either you have a specific wagon for each cargo, or you detect the cargos for which you don't have a specific wagon 20:34:40 <Eddi|zuHause> both should be known to you as a set designer 20:35:02 <Eddi|zuHause> by the inclusion/exclusion settings 20:35:07 *** frosch123 has quit IRC 20:35:11 <Eddi|zuHause> even without knowing all cargos 20:40:56 <andythenorth> wait how? :) 20:41:27 <andythenorth> is there an assumption that unknown cargos are just unknown? 20:41:35 <andythenorth> so have no malus? 20:43:18 * andythenorth tries to see the design 20:46:25 <andythenorth> or nvm :) 20:49:41 *** gnu_jj_ has joined #openttd 20:50:17 *** gnu_jj__ has joined #openttd 20:50:40 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: you have 3 specific wagons which have included/excluded lists, and a generic wagon. so for the generic wagon you check the inverse of the specific wagons 20:51:35 <andythenorth> ok so that entails setting more labels 20:51:37 <andythenorth> which is fine 20:52:16 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: so for the generic wagon, the check is "would there be a specific wagon that loads this" 20:52:23 <andythenorth> so if a cargo is known, and is featured in a specific wagon, it gets a malus in generic wagon 20:52:37 <Eddi|zuHause> the cargo doesn't need to be known for that 20:52:48 <andythenorth> ? 20:53:30 <andythenorth> I don't see how to write a varact 2 to check a label, when the label is not known? 20:53:37 <Eddi|zuHause> the specific wagon has a list of known cargos, and a cargo class 20:53:59 <Eddi|zuHause> the generic wagon must mimic this check 20:55:06 *** gnu_jj has quit IRC 20:55:19 <andythenorth> so the assumption is that the specific wagons all have specific cargo classes? 20:55:45 <Eddi|zuHause> no, the specific wagon can be whatever... 20:56:14 <Eddi|zuHause> the check will be the same (you can check against an empty set of cargo classes) 20:57:58 <Eddi|zuHause> your code generator will generate 4 switches, one for including specific cargos, one for excluding specific cargos, one for including cargo classes, and one for excluding cargo classes 20:58:00 *** sla_ro|master has quit IRC 20:58:03 *** gnu_jj_ has quit IRC 20:58:19 <Eddi|zuHause> and repeat that for each specific wagon that the generic wagon should mimic 20:59:40 <andythenorth> yes 20:59:47 <Eddi|zuHause> the generic wagon needs a list of all specific wagons, and draws from each the include/exclude lists 20:59:57 <andythenorth> ok we've redefined 'complicated' 21:00:06 <andythenorth> semantics :P 21:00:22 <Eddi|zuHause> well, you rejected the easy idea of having two static values 21:00:49 <andythenorth> explain that one again? 21:01:22 <Eddi|zuHause> the specific wagon gets one number, the generic one gets another 21:02:05 <Eddi|zuHause> bonus points for having a specific wagon for everything 21:02:40 <andythenorth> ok so the generic just get malus 21:02:50 <andythenorth> do I care about the gameplay effect of that? 21:02:59 <andythenorth> I'll have to reset all running costs again :) 21:03:10 <Eddi|zuHause> just add more wagons :) 21:03:56 *** arikover has joined #openttd 21:03:59 <andythenorth> is the logical conclusion to remove the generics? 21:04:11 <Eddi|zuHause> no, you need the generics for autorefit 21:04:58 <andythenorth> but you can only use them on short routes... 21:04:58 <Eddi|zuHause> however, i would probably only make an aging distinction for refrigerated, and make the other specific cargos benefit by capacity or loading speed or something 21:09:41 <andythenorth> I think that's inevitable, rather than a choice 21:09:48 <andythenorth> thanks 21:10:09 <andythenorth> convinces me to forget about the aging bonus, it really is a pointless part of the spec 21:11:48 <Eddi|zuHause> it is not, but probably the wrong choice for your current design challenge 21:13:34 <Eddi|zuHause> the main idea behind it was a bonus for long distance passenger travel on large maps (1024+) 21:14:16 <andythenorth> I'll rephrase 21:14:23 <andythenorth> for freight cargos, it's pointless 21:15:05 <Eddi|zuHause> probably (except for refrigerated) 21:15:05 <andythenorth> the pax implementation works fine as a malus, and it's easy to malus pax wagons 21:15:41 *** paulus[m] has joined #openttd 21:16:40 <andythenorth> maybe I should play test a 50% malus as standard 21:16:45 <andythenorth> aggressive cargo aging 21:17:03 *** Supercheese has joined #openttd 21:42:31 *** andythenorth has left #openttd 21:44:28 <arikover> andythenorth: Hello! Translating Iron Horse again. What is the difference between a "plate wagon" and a "flatcar"? 21:45:14 <Eddi|zuHause> arikover: i don't think even he knows :p 21:49:20 <arikover> :) 21:54:28 <arikover> The last types added really look nice, but translating them is pretty tricky as they have quite similar purposes as other wagons... 21:55:11 <Eddi|zuHause> arikover: i think the distinction is probably miniscule and pretty semantical, and might not translate well 21:58:40 <arikover> Eddi|zuHause: I might as well make some translations up... 21:59:11 <Eddi|zuHause> that sounds like a bad idea :) 22:00:52 <arikover> Eddi|zuHause: I can make them look serious enough... 22:03:13 <arikover> Eddi|zuHause: ...but probably a bad idea, yes. 22:18:28 *** gnu_jj has joined #openttd 22:21:46 *** gnu_jj__ has quit IRC 22:26:11 *** gelignite has quit IRC 22:34:47 <Wolf01> Plate wagon might be an open one with little sides, flat cars are different kind of open wagons with flat surfaces, even a car transporter, but only he might know what he meant 22:51:55 *** gnu_jj_ has joined #openttd 22:52:55 *** gnu_jj__ has joined #openttd 22:57:01 *** gnu_jj has quit IRC 23:00:26 *** gnu_jj_ has quit IRC 23:04:14 *** snail_UES_ has quit IRC 23:28:02 *** SimYouLater has quit IRC 23:28:56 *** SimYouLater has joined #openttd 23:45:52 *** Wolf01 has quit IRC 23:51:09 *** HerzogDeXtEr has quit IRC 23:54:38 <FLHerne> arikover: As ^, plate wagons have (very) low sides like https://www.hattons.co.uk/268051/Parkside_Models_PC16_20_ton_LNER_plate_wagon_Dia_1_123_plastic_kit/StockDetail.aspx 23:54:43 <FLHerne> Flat wagons are flat