Log for #openttd on 18th May 2019:
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01:50:04  <SimYouLater> Can someone explain something to me?
01:50:07  <SimYouLater> =======StarRaid's NML patcher!=======  Attempting to backup IH_AddonSet.nml Successfully backed up to "backups/IH_AddonSet-01-47-57-2019-05-18.nml"! Output : IH_AddonSet.nml File : IH_AddonSet.pnml Backup : 1 Verbose : 1 Opening "IH_AddonSet.pnml" as the main header. Patched src/header.pnml with no errors. Patched src/cyclops.pnml with no errors. Patched src/electra.pnml with no errors. Patched src/quicksilver.pnml with no errors. 
01:50:56  <SimYouLater> Stupid IRC. Hold on.
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01:54:28  <SimYouLater> How do I join using HexChat?
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01:58:09  <SimYouLater> Okay, finally got an IRC client.
01:59:04  <SimYouLater> Can someone explain why pybuild.bat is spitting up a weird error?
01:59:11  <SimYouLater> =======StarRaid's NML patcher!=======
01:59:11  <SimYouLater> Attempting to backup IH_AddonSet.nml
01:59:11  <SimYouLater> Successfully backed up to "backups/IH_AddonSet-01-47-57-2019-05-18.nml"!
01:59:11  <SimYouLater> Output : IH_AddonSet.nml
01:59:11  <SimYouLater> File : IH_AddonSet.pnml
01:59:11  <SimYouLater> Backup : 1
01:59:13  <SimYouLater> Verbose : 1
01:59:15  <SimYouLater> Opening "IH_AddonSet.pnml" as the main header.
01:59:17  <SimYouLater> Patched src/header.pnml with no errors.
01:59:19  <SimYouLater> Patched src/cyclops.pnml with no errors.
01:59:21  <SimYouLater> Patched src/electra.pnml with no errors.
01:59:23  <SimYouLater> Patched src/quicksilver.pnml with no errors.
01:59:25  <SimYouLater> nmlc ERROR: nmlc: An internal error has occurred:
01:59:29  <SimYouLater> nmlc-version: v6379:afad0c76c40b from 2017-06-19
01:59:31  <SimYouLater> Error:    (UnicodeEncodeError) "'charmap' codec can't encode character '\u202c' in position 19: character maps to <undefined>".
01:59:34  <SimYouLater> Command:  ['nmlc', 'IH_AddonSet.nml', '-o', 'IH_AddonSet.grf']
01:59:36  <SimYouLater> Location: File "c:\python-bit.3\lib\encodings\", line 19, in encode
01:59:42  <glx> use a pastebin
02:00:20  <SimYouLater>
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02:02:32  <SimYouLater> Flygon? Suprcheese? Got any advice about this error with my NewGRF compiling?
02:02:33  <SimYouLater>
02:03:38  <Suprcheese> might be like a UTF-encoding thing
02:03:44  <SimYouLater> It was working fine until I tried to complie something just a few minutes ago.
02:03:49  <SimYouLater> *compile
02:04:20  <SimYouLater> UTF-encoding... So how do I fix it?
02:05:24  <SimYouLater> I can convert encoding using Notepad++, right?
02:07:50  <SimYouLater> Is everyone busy, or should I just wait for a response?
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02:10:39  <SimYouLater> All I know is that I can change encoding using Notepad++. Other than that, I have no clue what's wrong.
02:12:10  <Supercheese> Well try flipping it around I guess
02:12:24  <Supercheese> UTF-8 with or without BOM
02:12:31  <Supercheese> not sure which is better
02:12:40  <glx> without usually
02:16:13  <SimYouLater> No dice. It doesn't matter what encoding I use, it still gives the same error.
02:18:41  <glx> hmm \u202c is not a usual character
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02:21:20  <glx> it's related to bidirectionnal text
02:22:41  <glx> maybe some RTL language strings in your file
02:22:49  <SimYouLater> Sounds like I have a character that shouldn't be there. How do I find and delete it?
02:23:19  <glx> it's not a visible character
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02:23:45  <SimYouLater> Then how am I supposed to remove it?
02:25:11  <SimYouLater> RTL language strings doesn't mean anything to me. Please explain.
02:25:34  <glx> arabic or hebrew for example
02:26:27  <SimYouLater> I definitely didn't use any language besides english.
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02:35:13  <SimYouLater> If the language isn't the issue, how do I fix it?
02:36:43  <glx> maybe related to
02:37:58  <SimYouLater> Then I need to update python?
02:40:56  <SimYouLater> Updating python, let's see if this works.
02:44:08  <SimYouLater> Nope.
02:46:01  <glx> maybe a bug in nml too
02:46:23  <SimYouLater> How do I update nmlc?
02:49:41  <glx> I don't see any commit related to that in more recent nmlc so updating nmlc won't help
02:50:12  <SimYouLater> Then what do I do?
02:54:48  <SimYouLater> I'm trying to work on the Iron Horse Addon, and this issue is preventing any progress... :(
02:56:53  <glx> I can't help more, I know nothing about python or nmlc source
02:57:21  <SimYouLater> $#!t.
03:01:50  <SimYouLater> Posted to the tt-forums topic for NML. Hopefully I can see this fixed.
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05:12:30  <Corns> Is 1.9.2 a planned release? What features will be pushed to it and how soon do i have to make a PR to get in?
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05:25:46  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Hexus-One commented on issue #7430: Vehicle waiting at station affects cargo age rating even if it did not pick up cargo
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06:22:43  <andythenorth> moin
06:22:56  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] MingweiSamuel commented on issue #7430: Vehicle waiting at station affects cargo age rating even if it did not pick up cargo
06:33:21  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] MingweiSamuel updated pull request #7595: Possible fix for #7430: when train visits station, only reset time_since_pickup if has room to load
06:37:53  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] MingweiSamuel updated pull request #7595: Possible fix for #7430: when train visits station, only reset time_since_pickup if has room to load
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06:51:04  <andythenorth> so for docs, is RAIL 'Standard Gauge' ?
06:51:12  <andythenorth> or is it 'Normal' ?
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07:40:14  <andythenorth> oof I now have to learn to draw steam trains :D
07:40:19  <andythenorth> never did that before
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08:06:36  <Eddi|zuHause> what did you do before? steal them from someone more competent?
08:09:09  <andythenorth> Dan drew them for me
08:09:12  <andythenorth> so yeah
08:10:57  <Artea> Date: 5057
08:10:57  <Artea> Years: 3073
08:13:08  <andythenorth> hmm
08:13:13  <andythenorth> where is V453000
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08:16:09  <Artea> ~bah
08:16:19  <Artea> my laptop cannot hold OpenTTD anymore :(
08:16:32  <Artea> is freezing :S
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08:51:48  <Eddi|zuHause> <andythenorth> so for docs, is RAIL 'Standard Gauge' ? <-- needs more context
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09:03:39  <Wolf01> o/
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09:15:32  <Wolf01> heh
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09:16:23  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: I could give you context, but I no longer have a way to publish docs :)
09:16:30  <andythenorth> one problem always seems linked to another
09:16:53  <andythenorth> is there a way to publish HTML any more?
09:17:02  <andythenorth> it used to be just 'rent a server with sftp and apache'
09:17:17  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't understand your problems...
09:17:35  <andythenorth> there are html docs
09:17:44  <andythenorth> they need to describe the rail types for a vehicle
09:17:46  <andythenorth> you can't see them
09:18:22  <Eddi|zuHause> no, i mean the build and publication process has not changed, just the repo url... why can't you connect them for a year now?
09:18:55  <andythenorth> oh because I broke devzone
09:19:07  <andythenorth> in one case
09:19:22  <andythenorth> and because there's no way to publish to devzone from Azure in the other case
09:22:34  <andythenorth> hmm buying web hosting is complicated
09:22:42  <andythenorth> I don't want cpanels and all that crap
09:26:32  <andythenorth> I no longer understand the internet industry :D
09:26:42  * andythenorth considering starting a farm
09:27:54  <dwfreed> rent a Linode (or get Linode to sponsor a machine for openttd)
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09:28:29  <andythenorth> looks simpler
09:28:47  <andythenorth> not renewable electricity though :)
09:33:52  * Artea on The Offspring - Walla Walla
09:36:00  * Artea on Eskimo - Party Pooper
09:36:16  <Artea> who is the party pooper in UK ? :P
09:37:07  <Artea> the police!
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09:45:39  <peter1138> Hi
09:45:56  <peter1138> That's the morning ride done with.
09:47:35  <andythenorth> how far?
09:48:50  <Artea> hi
09:58:04  <peter1138> Not much
09:58:13  <peter1138> 53 miles
10:00:54  <Eddi|zuHause> that's not even a tour de france etappe
10:04:39  <dwfreed> the shortest stage of the tour de france that is not a time trial is 63 miles
10:04:42  <dwfreed> so not far off
10:06:12  <peter1138> As I said, not much.
10:06:29  <Eddi|zuHause> i'd maybe take the median etappe
10:07:12  <dwfreed> my personal record for walking distance is 26 miles, so you doubled that, at least :)
10:07:46  <peter1138> It's still 1600 carolies of more food I can eat ;p
10:07:47  <Eddi|zuHause> i'd also use metric
10:08:09  <dwfreed> just multiply these numbers by 1.609
10:09:10  <nakki> wait, wasn't peter in the uk? i thought you guys (mostly) used the metric nowadays?
10:11:41  <dwfreed> "Most British people still use imperial units in everyday life for distance (miles, yards, feet and inches) and volume in some cases (especially milk and beer in pints) but rarely for canned or bottled soft drinks or petrol."
10:12:20  <Eddi|zuHause> will there be a metrexit?
10:14:34  <nakki> ah, so the uk is pretending even harder to be an island in the middle of the atlantic instead of a couple km off the french coast than i thought
10:17:19  <LordAro> we have a specific EU exception for selling milk & beer in pints, rather than litres
10:17:34  <nakki> hah
10:17:55  <LordAro> peter1138: nicely done. i'm taking today off
10:18:44  <LordAro> and i also tend to prefer imperial units for distance & speed
10:19:07  <nakki> i guess it's a matter of what you're used to
10:20:05  <LordAro> helps that all the road signs are in miles
10:27:14  <peter1138> And because it was little early and drizzly, is was a solo ride, cos nobody else in the group turned up.
10:30:57  <andythenorth> do you get bored?
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10:49:23  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Berbe commented on issue #7311: Wrong determination of personal directory
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10:49:29  <Beerbelott> Hello
10:50:00  <Beerbelott> Issi #7311 has been closed by stalebot, but PR #7339 still refers to it
10:50:03  <Beerbelott> Issue*
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10:54:06  <andythenorth> well
10:54:14  <andythenorth> it seems drawing steam trains is mostly easy
10:54:24  <andythenorth> the shapes are so irregular that the angles don't have to match up precisely
10:56:11  <LordAro> Beerbelott: as long as the PR is still open, i wouldn't worry too much
10:57:09  <andythenorth> 94% Horse
11:05:47  <Beerbelott> LordAro: OK thx. It just seemed strange
11:05:57  <Beerbelott> Have a nice day y'all :)
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11:45:47  <Gabda> hi
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12:02:49  <andythenorth> quak
12:02:55  <frosch123> hoi
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12:10:35  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] JGRennison opened pull request #7597: Fix #7594: Max speed rendered incorrectly in road vehicle purchase window when using original acceleration model
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12:24:36  <andythenorth> is it unwise to require GH creds when running make?
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12:34:42  <andythenorth> hmm you'd have to have my creds
12:34:43  <andythenorth> not good
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13:22:02  <peter1138> Why would you need github credentials?
13:22:16  <andythenorth> trying to figure out publishing
13:22:24  <andythenorth> GH pages wants a special headless branch
13:22:31  <andythenorth> to which one commits one's docs
13:22:41  <andythenorth> so to do that on CI means creds
13:23:06  <andythenorth> this does not sound good
13:23:13  <peter1138> You don't publish on CI though.
13:23:20  <peter1138> That would be turning CI into CD.
13:27:43  <andythenorth> so what publishes? o_O
13:28:09  <andythenorth> can't remember if Azure generates any useful artefacts
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13:40:28  * andythenorth ignores CI, CD
13:40:32  <andythenorth> it's brainfuck :)
13:42:36  <kiwitree> hi
13:45:54  <andythenorth> frosch123 would it be better to maintain bundles, or replace it, or something else?
13:47:00  <kiwitree> I'm making newgrf train set
13:47:08  <frosch123> i would setup jenklins with docker on devzone and keep bundles as it is
13:47:32  <kiwitree> and I found that accessing var41 via var61 in callback 36 is not allowed
13:47:46  <frosch123> i think hosted ci/cd is too complicated, if you have many small projects
13:47:52  <frosch123> gh is already a pain with many repositories
13:48:00  <kiwitree> Is there any reason for not allowing access to var41 in callback 36?
13:48:11  <frosch123> noone wants to convifgure branch protection/commit rules for all the tiny projects like musa, nml, ...
13:48:45  <andythenorth> no
13:48:49  <kiwitree> I think it does not cause circular dependencies
13:49:50  <frosch123> kiwitree: it's not about 41. 61 is disabled for cb36
13:50:45  <andythenorth> and would we use jenkins on devzone with GH?
13:50:54  <andythenorth> not Azure Pipelines?
13:51:09  <frosch123> repositories on gh are fine
13:51:19  <frosch123> they are no shared resource, most are worked on by single people
13:51:44  <andythenorth> so it's just jenkins configuration?
13:51:52  <andythenorth> to set the remote repo?
13:52:33  <frosch123> yes, pm already does that for some repos
13:53:01  <frosch123> no idea how well pm knows the jenkins vm on devzone, so no idea whether he can maintain/upgrade it
13:53:41  <frosch123> but to me both ottd and devzone have too deep history in their infrastructure
13:53:43  <kiwitree> then
13:53:57  <frosch123> whenever you look for something, you will find 3 earlier implementation which are no longer active
13:54:04  <kiwitree> is there any plan for allowing it?
13:54:12  <frosch123> so, if you are not already familar with it, it may be easier to restart :p
13:54:22  <frosch123> kiwitree: no, noone wants to debug newgrf
13:54:42  <frosch123> newgrf people can't do it themself, and others don't want to
13:55:05  <frosch123> var61 for property callback is a road to hell
13:55:33  <kiwitree> hmm
13:55:46  <kiwitree> ok, thanks
13:55:50  <andythenorth> it shouldn't be needed :)
13:56:00  <andythenorth> what case do you have?
13:56:40  * andythenorth wonders about maintaining jenkins vs. just using Azure Pipelines
13:56:58  <andythenorth> Azure Pipelines annoyed hell out of me, but once I learnt it, it worked very quickly
13:57:28  <andythenorth> but it would have to be given creds to publish
13:57:56  <andythenorth> does Jenkins have the devzone creds?
13:58:02  <andythenorth> bundles / devzone /s
13:58:41  <frosch123> they just have a shared disk, so yes?
13:59:17  <frosch123> you have some controller on the outside, run the compiler in some jail, and then copy the artefacts on the outside again
13:59:48  <frosch123> jenkins with docker would be the same. checkout the sources, run docker to compile it, copy results to bundles
14:00:17  <frosch123> checkout and publish does not run unknown Makefiles etc.
14:00:29  * andythenorth wonders if AP can hit a webhook on completion
14:00:40  <andythenorth> with the URL to the artefacts in the payload
14:03:22  <Gabda> Can I ask someone to have a look at PR 7025? It is kind of lost at the end of the PR list.
14:06:27  <andythenorth> we should close a bunch
14:07:54  <peter1138> Okay but I need to mow my lawn.
14:15:40  * andythenorth wonders
14:15:51  <andythenorth> how to do a carging aging bonus for freight cargos
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14:24:03  <andythenorth> bonuses have to be implemented as maluses
14:24:16  <andythenorth> so if I want to bonus refrigerated wagons
14:24:21  <andythenorth> I need to malus food etc in box cars
14:25:19  <andythenorth> that means keeping a list of all cargos
14:25:24  <andythenorth> and using CB36 to malus some
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14:29:34  <andythenorth> wonder if I can reliably do it on class?
14:31:24  <andythenorth> maybe I malus *all* vehicles
14:31:38  <andythenorth> then change all FIRS cargos to halve delay rate
14:31:54  <andythenorth> then applying the bonus to just some vehicles will work
14:32:51  <kiwitree> andythenorth: I need the number of cars until next engine
14:33:11  <andythenorth> do you know the engine IDs?
14:33:26  <kiwitree> like [engine] [wagon] [wagon] [engine] [wagon] [wagon], I need 2
14:34:26  <kiwitree> yes, I know the engine ids
14:39:22  <kiwitree> for wagons, it's okay because var41 can do that, but for engines I can't get the number of cars until next engine
14:39:30  <andythenorth> not sure you can do this in cb36
14:41:43  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: can you think of an implementation of a cargo aging bonus?
14:41:54  <andythenorth> for freight, that doesn't require a list of all known cargos?
14:44:30  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] cosminCos opened issue #7598: openttd: symbol lookup error: /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/ undefined symbol: _ZNK6icu_6012LayoutEngine14getCharIndicesEPiiR11LEErrorCode
14:45:40  <LordAro> hmm, ICU
14:45:56  <LordAro> incompatible with whatever version of ICU that is? 60?
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14:59:43  <peter1138> We don't make 19.04 builds.
15:01:15  <LordAro> "teminal~ openttd" implies it's on the path, which means it's probably been installed via apt
15:01:24  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN closed issue #7598: openttd: symbol lookup error: /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/ undefined symbol: _ZNK6icu_6012LayoutEngine14getCharIndicesEPiiR11LEErrorCode
15:01:27  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN commented on issue #7598: openttd: symbol lookup error: /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/ undefined symbol: _ZNK6icu_6012LayoutEngine14getCharIndicesEPiiR11LEErrorCode
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15:02:13  <LordAro> depends on icu63, should be fine...
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15:02:46  <LordAro> perhaps they've just taken one of the older packages?
15:03:18  <LordAro> yeah, looks like it, that 18.04 depends on icu60
15:03:25  <LordAro> perhaps the version should be more restrictive?
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15:07:26  <peter1138> What version where?
15:08:54  <LordAro> wherever those come from
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15:10:04  <Corns> Is 1.9.2 a planned release?
15:10:10  <peter1138> It should already depend on libicu60.
15:10:20  <peter1138> Possibly.
15:11:04  <Corns> Just wondering how quickly ishould develop any patches i have in mind
15:11:46  <peter1138> Patches for what?
15:12:09  <peter1138> 1.9.2 will not contain any new features.
15:12:10  <Corns> Like, any PR ideas i have
15:12:17  <Corns> To develop for trunk
15:12:19  <Corns> Ah ok
15:12:35  <Corns> Just bugfixes?
15:13:35  <LordAro> yes
15:14:12  <LordAro> 1.10 is currently expected to be sometime later this year
15:14:45  <Corns> Ooh sweet okay
15:17:10  <andythenorth> lots of windows are now odd
15:17:15  <andythenorth> odd padding and so on
15:17:32  <andythenorth> "screenshots or it's not true" :P
15:17:32  <Corns> Is this with 2x gui scale?
15:17:35  <andythenorth> yes
15:17:44  <Corns> Yeah ive noticwd
15:17:56  <Corns> Im on quad scale for my 4k screen
15:18:07  <andythenorth> the aspect ratios are weird too
15:18:20  <Corns> And the rail toolbar padding is paper rhin
15:19:02  * andythenorth BBL
15:19:04  *** andythenorth has quit IRC
15:19:31  <Corns> Are there any irc clients that are "always on" and can save the chat history while I'm away?
15:19:45  <Corns> Or do i have to leave my computer on 24/7
15:20:12  <michi_cc> @logs
15:20:12  <DorpsGek> michi_cc:
15:22:04  <Corns> :0 ty
15:25:00  <Heiki> Corns: apart from the logs, there’s at least three possibilities: a) leave your computer on, b) find a shell provider (there are free ones, but I don’t know whether they’re any good), c) use Matrix (e.g., where this channel is available as
15:35:30  *** Flygon has quit IRC
15:42:14  <peter1138> Corns, there is no trunk. There is only master.
15:42:57  * peter1138 delinks Strava from Fitbit. I'm fairly use it is doubling carolies for any activity.
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16:02:23  <Corns343434> Heiki: thank you :)
16:02:44  <Corns343434> @peter1138: isnt that the same thing
16:04:56  <Heiki> you’re welcome (: that Matrix thingy needs some fiddling around at first, but after that it is quite reliable (and free)
16:08:17  *** Corns has quit IRC
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16:14:42  <corns_mcgowan[m]> Helloo
16:16:54  *** Gumle2 has quit IRC
16:20:20  <corns_mcgowan[m]> Does #/r/openttd have a matrix room too?
16:20:46  *** Corns343434 has quit IRC
16:20:57  <nakki> doubt it
16:25:12  <corns_mcgowan[m]> All g
16:28:10  <peter1138> Is what the same thing?
16:34:55  <corns_mcgowan[m]> Trunk -> master peter1138
16:35:17  *** corns_mcgowan[m] is now known as Corns[m]
16:45:16  <peter1138> No, it's not the same thing.
16:45:44  <peter1138> Trunk is specifically an SVN convention, where files are placed in a subdirectory in the svn repository called... "trunk"
16:46:11  <peter1138> master is a git convention, and is just the main branch.
16:52:21  <Corns[m]> I see
16:52:47  <Corns[m]> I will use both terms interchangeably:)
16:57:39  <peter1138> If you're still using svn, sure. But we don't, so that's wrong.
17:03:17  <Corns[m]> okay master
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17:26:16  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 approved pull request #7597: Fix #7594: Max speed rendered incorrectly in road vehicle purchase window when using original acceleration model
17:31:03  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 merged pull request #7597: Fix #7594: Max speed rendered incorrectly in road vehicle purchase window when using original acceleration model
17:31:09  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 closed issue #7594: Max speed string dparam set incorrectly in road vehicle purchase window when using original acceleration model
17:32:25  <nakki> honestly surprises me to find people in 2019 who program but haven't gotten used to git conventions
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17:47:11  <andythenorth> o/
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17:55:07  <LordAro> nakki: git is by no means the only VCS used
17:55:09  <andythenorth> do refrigerated wagons etc really need a cargo aging bonus?
17:55:21  <andythenorth> or is it enough that they are different colours?
17:56:00  <andythenorth> I've run a test again, and confirmed again that cargo age period does nothing useful
17:56:11  <nakki> LordAro, it is p much the industry standard tho
17:56:28  <LordAro> ha
17:56:30  <LordAro> not even close
17:56:44  <nakki> well, at least in my city's comp sci circles svn is considered pretty outdated and archaic
17:57:01  <LordAro> i didn't say it wasn't ;)
17:57:30  <LordAro> i use svn at work
17:57:51  <LordAro> i know a few places that use SourceSafe
17:57:53  <nakki> i do, too, but it's something that's constantly complained about internally
17:58:07  <nakki> isn't sourcesafe uh
17:58:09  <nakki> discontinued?
17:59:11  <LordAro> when did that ever stop anyone?
17:59:19  <LordAro> but i think i mean Foundation Server anyway
17:59:32  <nakki> ah
18:00:45  <LordAro> but still, i would estimate about half of my developer colleagues have never used git before
18:01:18  <nakki> wow
18:01:35  <LordAro> let's face it, svn is so much simpler to use
18:02:21  <nakki> don't think i personally know any developer who hasn't used git
18:02:29  <LordAro> and as much as i'd like to use git, teaching everyone would likely fall on me :)
18:02:52  <Corns[m]> q: is this intended behaviour? from citymania 1.9.1 client, airport shows max speed as 73km/h even though my planes have 952km/h max speed
18:04:16  <LordAro> nakki: be aware of the "echo chamber" that comp sci circles can be - you're very biased towards people who are actively interested in learning new technologies, and not those who don't want/care to do any programming outside of work
18:05:19  <nakki> yeah i was just thinking about that, people i work with tend to be at the younger end of the spectrum, and most of my friends are from the natural sciences campus of the local university
18:05:37  <LordAro> bet you all like nodejs, rust & go as well :p
18:05:46  <nakki> sadly, i work with legacy java :(
18:05:56  <nakki> at least it's java 8 though, so i can stream away
18:06:08  <nakki> i'd probably do rust, kotlin or scala if i could freely choose though :P
18:06:24  <LordAro> how very hipster ;)
18:06:50  <LordAro> i think the bits of Java we have are still on 7, due to eclipse3
18:06:56  <nakki> heh
18:07:21  <LordAro> my day to day is Ada though, so i always win these sort of contests ;)
18:07:26  <nakki> hah
18:07:34  <LordAro> it is Ada2012 though, which is nice
18:17:27  <Eddi|zuHause> Ada, the language that doesn't let you program ANYTHIG?
18:17:57  <LordAro> hmm? works well enough for me
18:18:08  <LordAro> very easy to pick up, coming from C/C++
18:18:42  <Eddi|zuHause> i haven't actually tried... just the bits i've seen were always about "this is more strict in Ada"...
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18:50:45  <Corns[m]> What are your thoughts on autofund being added to master?
18:53:13  <Corns[m]> Like,  the autofund button found in the btpro, n-ice, citymania clients
18:53:26  <LordAro> assume that no one knows what that is
18:54:53  <Corns[m]> Oh okay
18:56:01  <Corns[m]> It's a button that automatically funds new buildings for towns (ie it presses "fund new buildings" every 3 months)- you can toggle it on/off per town
18:56:55  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't see much use for that outside these highly specialized city builder games
18:58:03  <Corns[m]> I was thinking that too,  but i realised i use them to boost city growth when i want to build larger airports
18:59:17  <Corns[m]> Maybe we could at least let the current fund buildings function simply add to the counter instead of resetting it to 3 months?
19:00:15  <frosch123> what, automatic larva injection?
19:02:52  <Corns[m]> Wait what do you mean larva
19:04:28  <frosch123> when you played zerg in sc2 wol, you would have to do a specific action (inject larva) like every minute
19:04:41  <Corns[m]> Ohh HAHA
19:04:47  <frosch123> later it was changed to do that automatically, and people said it was for noobs
19:04:53  <Corns[m]> Ive never played  sc2 but my friends have
19:04:56  <frosch123> no idea how it is today
19:05:24  <Corns[m]> But yeah i reckon it would be a nice change for openttd considering its more casual
19:06:04  <LordAro> if you "need" to fund new buildings every 3 months, i'm not sure you're playing casually
19:06:12  <Corns[m]> For people who don't want to build 4-5 bus stops in a town just to force growth, they can rely on that instead
19:06:40  <LordAro> that's not exactly playing the game
19:06:53  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think you're looking at the right target audience
19:06:57  <Corns[m]> Hm wdym?
19:11:45  <Corns[m]> You're right, I wouldn't call myself an average player
19:12:36  <Corns[m]> what would an average player look for in the game?
19:13:55  <Corns[m]> Also when we add features, who do we cater for? I feel that not all features cater for all players either,  as in some can be considered advanced features I guess
19:14:00  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm having two issues with this: including this button would a) send a message to the players that this is actually something you should do, or you're playing the game wrong, and b) the game suffers from too many (somewhat hidden) options and overloaded UI
19:14:01  <frosch123> <- there are at least 4 groups of players
19:18:54  <andythenorth> usually I need smaller cities :P
19:19:06  <frosch123> fund deportation?
19:19:16  <andythenorth> auto demolish?
19:19:23  <Xaroth> Small tactical nukes?
19:23:31  <Eddi|zuHause> in the event of the cold war turning hot, the west had planned to use "mini nukes" to cut bridges and stuff so the russians couldn't advance quickly
19:24:19  <frosch123> how does that help agains hoover tanks?
19:24:26  <frosch123> oh, right, they do not work on water
19:24:43  <andythenorth>
19:25:06  <andythenorth> I always found the idea of a ground war between nuclear powers odd
19:25:22  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: novelty items which only one was ever built does not usually make for a good weapon in an actual war :p
19:26:02  <andythenorth> 80000 T-34s
19:26:05  <frosch123> andythenorth: why? both have companies who want to sell weapons and ammunition
19:26:56  <andythenorth> frosch123: my assumption (probably wrong) is that as soon as you see enough tanks on the move, you just do a debilitating first strike on the other side
19:27:13  <andythenorth> and of course, they know you'll do that, so they have to strike you
19:27:34  <andythenorth> so if there's enough cause to have tanks cross the borders, the missiles will go
19:27:51  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: it was rumored that the russians have some 2000 odd T-34 from WWII leftovers stored in some mountain, ready to go
19:28:03  <andythenorth> probably fine
19:29:00  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: interested in a maintainance job? it's future proof
19:29:47  <frosch123> it's mostly oiling and moving the parts
19:29:59  <Eddi|zuHause> they also had some captured german steam engines outside Kaliningrad, ready to go on the european standard gauge
19:30:06  <frosch123> and caring for the cats, who hunt the mice
19:30:42  <Eddi|zuHause> i believe those are scrapped now
19:31:47  <andythenorth> the cats?
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19:47:55  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm fairly sure there are no cats around who witnessed WWII
19:48:07  <andythenorth> hmm
19:48:17  <andythenorth> so which cargos should I malus for cargo age period?
19:48:22  <andythenorth> in freight wagons
19:52:58  <Samu> round 23 finished
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20:10:49  <Eddi|zuHause> you make a list of known cargos that fit in each category, and unknown cargos you make some guess based on cargo class?
20:11:52  <andythenorth> that's the implementation yes
20:11:56  <andythenorth> how to choose the cargos?
20:12:04  <frosch123> every wagon can carry every cargo? some have just huge penalties? :p
20:12:09  <Eddi|zuHause> fair dice roll?
20:12:31  <Eddi|zuHause> (return 4)
20:12:35  <andythenorth> an alternative is to just to drop the idea that, e.g. refrigerated wagons have any gameplay purpose
20:12:39  <andythenorth> it's much easier to do that
20:13:13  <andythenorth> I suspect I'm only using cargo age period because the spec suggests it
20:14:51  <Eddi|zuHause> isn't there a refrigerated cargo class?
20:16:43  <andythenorth> there is, but I've extended the idea of reduced cargo aging to other types of cargo
20:16:47  <andythenorth> which doesn't work
20:18:57  <Eddi|zuHause> then scrap that extended idea
20:21:16  <Eddi|zuHause> oberhümer had this idea for CETS that specific wagons get improved aging for all the cargos they can load, and generic wagons don't
20:21:31  <andythenorth> I had that idea too
20:21:41  <andythenorth> it's not possible, in any sensible way
20:21:47  <Eddi|zuHause> how?
20:22:33  <andythenorth> there's no implementation that supports it except either (1) on pathological maps (2) by tracking a very large list of known cargos, and doing some odd malus to generic wagons
20:22:37  <Eddi|zuHause> refrigerated wagon can load all refrigerated cargo. closed wagon can load (almost) all cargos
20:22:39  <andythenorth> 1 or 2
20:23:19  <Eddi|zuHause> hopper can load all pourable cargos, open wagon can load (almost) all cargos
20:23:19  <andythenorth> yes ^^ that makes sense
20:23:31  <andythenorth> that also makes sense
20:23:49  <andythenorth> but there's no possible non-complicated implementation of cargo aging for that idea
20:23:56  <andythenorth> unless I haven't thought of it yet :P
20:24:00  <Eddi|zuHause> why?
20:24:19  <andythenorth> because cargo aging relies on malus, not bonus
20:24:32  <andythenorth> so to give some wagons a 'bonus' the malus is applied to the others
20:24:41  <Eddi|zuHause> refrigerated wagon gets one setting, closed wagon gets another setting. all independent from cargo
20:24:48  <andythenorth> what setting though?
20:24:56  <Eddi|zuHause> fair dice roll?
20:25:18  <andythenorth> I mean which newgrf prop?
20:25:35  <Eddi|zuHause> the aging period?
20:25:47  <Eddi|zuHause> other option would be capacity
20:25:54  <andythenorth> presumably
20:26:04  <andythenorth> and the dice is re-rolled per game?
20:26:06  <Eddi|zuHause> the specific wagon can load more
20:26:07  <andythenorth> per vehicle? :D
20:26:27  <andythenorth> aging period is randomised on build :P
20:26:58  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't see why it needs to be complicated
20:27:32  <andythenorth> you're aware that prop 2B can't give any bonus?
20:27:35  <andythenorth> only malus
20:27:59  <andythenorth> for practical purposes, on practical map sizes, with practical train speeds
20:28:06  <andythenorth> and conventional cargo age curves
20:28:49  <andythenorth> so the complication is entailed in giving a malus to all non-special wagons
20:29:07  <andythenorth> without breaking existing cargo payment expectations, relation to running costs etc
20:30:05  <andythenorth> probably simpler to remove the feature from Horse :)
20:31:53  <andythenorth> I did consider 50% malus for all wagons, and then halving cargo curve gradient in FIRS
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20:33:43  <Eddi|zuHause> <andythenorth> you're aware that prop 2B can't give any bonus? <-- yes, but we're still talking about two static values, however high they are
20:34:23  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: so either you have a specific wagon for each cargo, or you detect the cargos for which you don't have a specific wagon
20:34:40  <Eddi|zuHause> both should be known to you as a set designer
20:35:02  <Eddi|zuHause> by the inclusion/exclusion settings
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20:35:11  <Eddi|zuHause> even without knowing all cargos
20:40:56  <andythenorth> wait how? :)
20:41:27  <andythenorth> is there an assumption that unknown cargos are just unknown?
20:41:35  <andythenorth> so have no malus?
20:43:18  * andythenorth tries to see the design
20:46:25  <andythenorth> or nvm  :)
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20:50:40  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: you have 3 specific wagons which have included/excluded lists, and a generic wagon. so for the generic wagon you check the inverse of the specific wagons
20:51:35  <andythenorth> ok so that entails setting more labels
20:51:37  <andythenorth> which is fine
20:52:16  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: so for the generic wagon, the check is "would there be a specific wagon that loads this"
20:52:23  <andythenorth> so if a cargo is known, and is featured in a specific wagon, it gets a malus in generic wagon
20:52:37  <Eddi|zuHause> the cargo doesn't need to be known for that
20:52:48  <andythenorth> ?
20:53:30  <andythenorth> I don't see how to write a varact 2 to check a label, when the label is not known?
20:53:37  <Eddi|zuHause> the specific wagon has a list of known cargos, and a cargo class
20:53:59  <Eddi|zuHause> the generic wagon must mimic this check
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20:55:19  <andythenorth> so the assumption is that the specific wagons all have specific cargo classes?
20:55:45  <Eddi|zuHause> no, the specific wagon can be whatever...
20:56:14  <Eddi|zuHause> the check will be the same (you can check against an empty set of cargo classes)
20:57:58  <Eddi|zuHause> your code generator will generate 4 switches, one for including specific cargos, one for excluding specific cargos, one for including cargo classes, and one for excluding cargo classes
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20:58:19  <Eddi|zuHause> and repeat that for each specific wagon that the generic wagon should mimic
20:59:40  <andythenorth> yes
20:59:47  <Eddi|zuHause> the generic wagon needs a list of all specific wagons, and draws from each the include/exclude lists
20:59:57  <andythenorth> ok we've redefined 'complicated'
21:00:06  <andythenorth> semantics :P
21:00:22  <Eddi|zuHause> well, you rejected the easy idea of having two static values
21:00:49  <andythenorth> explain that one again?
21:01:22  <Eddi|zuHause> the specific wagon gets one number, the generic one gets another
21:02:05  <Eddi|zuHause> bonus points for having a specific wagon for everything
21:02:40  <andythenorth> ok so the generic just get malus
21:02:50  <andythenorth> do I care about the gameplay effect of that?
21:02:59  <andythenorth> I'll have to reset all running costs again :)
21:03:10  <Eddi|zuHause> just add more wagons :)
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21:03:59  <andythenorth> is the logical conclusion to remove the generics?
21:04:11  <Eddi|zuHause> no, you need the generics for autorefit
21:04:58  <andythenorth> but you can only use them on short routes...
21:04:58  <Eddi|zuHause> however, i would probably only make an aging distinction for refrigerated, and make the other specific cargos benefit by capacity or loading speed or something
21:09:41  <andythenorth> I think that's inevitable, rather than a choice
21:09:48  <andythenorth> thanks
21:10:09  <andythenorth> convinces me to forget about the aging bonus, it really is a pointless part of the spec
21:11:48  <Eddi|zuHause> it is not, but probably the wrong choice for your current design challenge
21:13:34  <Eddi|zuHause> the main idea behind it was a bonus for long distance passenger travel on large maps (1024+)
21:14:16  <andythenorth> I'll rephrase
21:14:23  <andythenorth> for freight cargos, it's pointless
21:15:05  <Eddi|zuHause> probably (except for refrigerated)
21:15:05  <andythenorth> the pax implementation works fine as a malus, and it's easy to malus pax wagons
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21:16:40  <andythenorth> maybe I should play test a  50% malus as standard
21:16:45  <andythenorth> aggressive cargo aging
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21:44:28  <arikover> andythenorth: Hello! Translating Iron Horse again. What is the difference between a "plate wagon" and a "flatcar"?
21:45:14  <Eddi|zuHause> arikover: i don't think even he knows :p
21:49:20  <arikover> :)
21:54:28  <arikover> The last types added really look nice, but translating them is pretty tricky as they have quite similar purposes as other wagons...
21:55:11  <Eddi|zuHause> arikover: i think the distinction is probably miniscule and pretty semantical, and might not translate well
21:58:40  <arikover> Eddi|zuHause: I might as well make some translations up...
21:59:11  <Eddi|zuHause> that sounds like a bad idea :)
22:00:52  <arikover> Eddi|zuHause: I can make them look serious enough...
22:03:13  <arikover> Eddi|zuHause: ...but probably a bad idea, yes.
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22:34:47  <Wolf01> Plate wagon might be an open one with little sides, flat cars are different kind of open wagons with flat surfaces, even a car transporter, but only he might know what he meant
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23:54:38  <FLHerne> arikover: As ^, plate wagons have (very) low sides like
23:54:43  <FLHerne> Flat wagons are flat

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