Log for #openttd on 24th June 2019:
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03:42:27  <reldred> weeeeeoooo
03:42:44  <reldred> I really should fix my irssi configuration
03:43:02  <reldred> also belated Congratulations on getting NRT into master folks :)
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04:08:26  <reldred> and oh look at that, I can still compile my old last version of the north american building set >:D
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05:32:43  <nakki> midsummer is over
05:32:54  <nakki> it's back to boring, grey work routine
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06:06:57  <reldred> oh yay, my last build of the north american building set did support variable snowline
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06:13:05  <reldred> I need to work on the suburb distribution though
06:13:20  <reldred> I'm pleased it's not choking out other building sets but it needs more work
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07:26:27  <andythenorth> 'Feldbahn' or 'Industrial Train' ?
07:26:46  <andythenorth>
08:06:52  <reldred> well that was a fun half an hour trying to remember how to chain action2's together
08:07:03  <reldred> andythenorth: gimmenaobahn
08:07:11  <reldred> andythenorth: Feldbahn for a set name sounds nice thouygh
08:07:45  <reldred> oh, for actual vehicle names
08:08:00  <reldred> I think most english speaking people would expect 'industrial tram'
08:10:15  <peter1138> Yeah
08:10:53  <reldred> Hmmm. I am vexed. My generate only once per town was working and now I've broken it.
08:15:49  <reldred> ahh there we go, fixed
08:16:34  <reldred> now I wonder if I should go find Oz and Lifeblood and get their permission for the graphics and a re-release of NABS
08:16:51  <reldred> after that little debacle with oztransltd about ten years ago
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08:43:02  <peter1138> Oz is back on the forums, posting screenshots.
08:46:01  <reldred> Oh neat
08:46:10  <reldred> I just dropped them all a PM
08:46:23  <reldred> and flicked an email to DanMacK
08:49:07  <reldred> oh hang on, that's OzTrans whos active on the forums again
08:51:52  <planetmaker> danmacK is usually quite ... how do you say? approachable about his graphics
08:51:58  <reldred> wow I thought I threw some tantrums back on tt-forums back in the day, I never called the ottd devs seasoned thugs
08:52:08  <reldred> planetmaker: yeah danmack and I go waaaay back
08:52:27  <reldred> I'm the artists formerly known as Aegir, for those unaware.
08:52:39  * reldred prepares for the channel ban
08:52:54  <planetmaker> there's people who know how to argue. And there's people who don't. That makes all the difference.
08:53:06  <planetmaker> Should your name ring any bad memories with me? (hint: it doesn't)
08:53:10  <reldred> eh, I was a child when I was active
08:53:20  <reldred> nah I was more active in the ttdpatch scene
08:53:40  <nakki> oh lord i'm glad i'm no longer active in the internet circles i frequented when i was a kid
08:53:46  <reldred> I threw my toys out of the pram a few times.
08:54:14  <reldred> mostly spat it at entitled users and busybody 'project managers' who liked to dictate to coders and artists what to do.
08:54:35  <peter1138> Yeah but that was basically the "right" side of the arguments ;)
08:55:02  <planetmaker> hehe
08:55:06  <reldred> like seriously, working in telecomms/networking and IT now and I'm sitting here wondering who goes HOME onto the INTERNET and decides they want to PM someone ELSES work for them?
08:55:19  <reldred> crap on a crutch
08:56:10  <nakki> hahah
08:56:21  <reldred> oh, probably the only 'infamous' thing I did was 'stolentrees'
08:57:07  <reldred> and my secret invite only openttd multiplayer server a bunch of artists/coders and I were on with our illicit blackmarket unreleased grf's.
08:58:03  <peter1138> :)
08:58:04  <reldred> but nah seriously, I wanted to complement you guys on the recent merge of NRT to master, I thought I'd never see the day but it sounds like there was some serious hustle recently to get it in.
08:59:53  <planetmaker> he... I just dug out an old e-mail / license which even confirms that you used this nick already 12 years ago :P
09:00:08  <planetmaker> when I asked you to be allowed to distribute your newgrfs in the coop grf pack :P
09:00:16  <reldred> hah
09:00:34  <reldred> yeah I always got crotchety about licensing
09:00:44  <planetmaker> <-- ;)
09:00:50  <reldred> and I never did get around to getting orudge to change my forum handle
09:01:02  <reldred> tbh it puts some distance between forum me and real me
09:01:16  <reldred> and if I start releasing again I probably won't post on the forums
09:01:26  <reldred> I can't deal with that kind of attention anymore.
09:01:26  <planetmaker> why not?
09:01:42  <planetmaker> fair enough
09:02:03  <reldred> bad brain. brain is bad. Don't think I could deal with the stress or expectations anymore.
09:02:30  <planetmaker> the expectations, written and unwritten, that's the bad part of it really. IMHO
09:02:38  <reldred> Yup
09:02:45  <reldred> One of the things that drove me off way back when
09:03:17  <reldred> arguments over licensing, arguments over set management, arguments over everything. Everybody just wants wants wants wants.
09:06:16  <planetmaker> there's always more people who know how you should do something than there are people willing to actually do something at all
09:06:27  <reldred> Yeah pretty much
09:08:22  <reldred> Ahhhh I'm really pleased. I've got NABS playing nicely jp building set which creates some nice big 'cities' in the 1930's
09:08:37  <reldred> neither set crowds out the other
09:08:55  <reldred> might do a parameter flag to disable the suburban houses and just keep the big 'uns
09:09:48  <planetmaker> you totally should do that :P
09:09:52  * planetmaker hides
09:11:04  <reldred> well, that's what I've always liked in ottd, creating really weird alternate worlds, especialyl with your generic 2cc style sets and some of the stuff like roadhog, etc.
09:11:36  <reldred> let the world and the terrain tell a story
09:12:06  <reldred> and I guess this one atm is a cross between either america invading JP post WW2 or... the reverse.
09:17:39  <reldred> Well, I've got an grf dev environment partially working, I should work on getting ottd to compile now
09:17:43  <reldred> I have... ideas...
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10:31:13  <reldred> Hmmm. Starting to really wish there was something like Docklands for railtypes.
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10:38:38  <planetmaker> what you mean with 'docklands'?
10:39:02  <planetmaker> oh. hm. :)
10:39:04  <planetmaker> nvm
10:39:06  <reldred> NRT set that has roads match station sets like ISR or chips
10:39:21  <reldred> I want matching choo choo train lines :)
10:40:52  <planetmaker> I wonder how hard that would be...
10:41:18  <planetmaker> given that you have access to rail graphics and the object graphics, it should be a more or less straight forward job. Yet tedious
10:41:19  <reldred> I don't suspect it would be very hard
10:41:52  <planetmaker> one could take supermop's code and make parameters for different railtypes
10:42:11  <reldred> Yeah, I've done worse. Before NRT back in TTDPatch days I was looking at making train track sprites that matched city streets, and then we did some code to configure the matrix that selected what trains were allowed on what tracks
10:42:15  <planetmaker> if you're daring, put more work in it and check adjacent tiles for real rail types :P
10:42:32  <planetmaker> luckily now rail and road live separately :)
10:42:44  <reldred> Nah I'd just implement it like the urban lines in jpset
10:42:54  <reldred> just a seperate tracktype with pretty graphics
10:43:00  <reldred> nothing fancy
10:43:07  <reldred> If I was going to do it, that is.
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10:45:43  <andythenorth>
10:45:53  <peter1138> Anyone started that yet?
10:46:58  <reldred> andythenorth: okay yeah that's pretty much what I was thinking
10:47:13  <reldred> That'd even answer some questions re: stations as well
10:47:27  <reldred> station sets refactored around that would save some sprites
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11:23:42  <andythenorth> peter1138: think we can safely assume 'no'
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12:57:50  <peter1138> Is it lunch time?
12:58:25  <peter1138> "Just missed it"
12:58:26  <peter1138> I see.
12:58:34  <LordAro> sorry, try again tomorrow
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12:59:13  <peter1138> Well I already ate, fortunately.
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13:20:46  <peter1138> Hmm, Strava says 520 kcal, Fitbit says 700 kcal... which do I "trust"?
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14:00:38  <planetmaker> burn it and use a calorimeter
14:00:45  <planetmaker> then you know what would have been true :P
14:03:29  <peter1138> That was exercise, not food.
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14:29:59  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] wousser commented on issue #7247: With lots of vehicles, PerformanceAccumulator has a large performance impact itself
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14:38:50  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on issue #7247: With lots of vehicles, PerformanceAccumulator has a large performance impact itself
14:51:08  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] EgyLynx commented on issue #7626: Building drive through road stop on town-owned one-way road crashes game.
14:54:42  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] EgyLynx commented on issue #7611: Accident/disaster news not always showing
14:56:34  <LordAro> ...can anyone else work out what that means?
14:57:07  <nielsm> very difficult to decrypt
14:58:21  <LordAro> at the very least it seems the original issue(s) were misunderstood
14:58:26  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] EgyLynx commented on issue #7580: Feature Request: When loading a saved game, the file picker should remember the last used directory
14:59:16  <LordAro> interesting, wouldn't expect "wanna" from a non-native speaker...
14:59:50  <nielsm> maybe machine translation
15:00:11  <LordAro> certainly not from a machine
15:00:16  <LordAro> it's not a proper word :p
15:00:33  <nielsm> current deep learning stuff will probably pick that kind up
15:01:11  <nielsm> if it's also fed slang material for learning, which it probably needs too
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15:03:27  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] EgyLynx commented on issue #7625: Road infrastructure counts are not updated properly, free money exploit with infrastructure maintenance
15:04:51  <nielsm> yeah that's useless
15:06:39  <LordAro> i'm happy to delete all these comments, if you like
15:12:20  <nielsm> I don't really care
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15:49:28  <Heiki> ah, the removal tool does not affect mosquitoes that have landed on the display to digest what they have sucked out of me
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16:01:32  <Eddi|zuHause> file a report?
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16:09:05  <Corns> hello
16:09:19  <Corns> what function can i use to check if a tile is occupied by a canal lock?
16:09:34  <Heiki> Eddi|zuHause: I’ll first have to investigate whether this affects flies and wasps as well
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16:23:46  <Eddi|zuHause> seems like you have some debugging to do
16:48:50  <FLHerne> Corns[m]: water_map.h has an `IsLock(TileIndex t)`
16:48:52  <FLHerne> So probably that
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17:24:44  <andythenorth> boom boom
17:32:38  <frosch123> someone in your room?
17:33:55  <andythenorth> I continue this debugging adventure
17:35:20  <andythenorth> where did I get to?
17:35:30  <andythenorth> oh LordAro was on Windows and Eddi|zuHause had to go out
17:35:35  <andythenorth> so I went to bed :P
17:35:57  <andythenorth>
17:39:23  <LordAro> i think it's frosch123's turn :p
17:41:59  <frosch123> wasn't the conclusion already that some afterload dependency is probably wrong?
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17:45:14  <LordAro> almost certainly, but the trick is working out *which*
17:49:34  <LordAro> and there's quite a few of them, according to #7602
17:54:29  <andythenorth> I could start changing random lines? o_O
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19:29:35  <andythenorth> can I debug any more?
19:30:17  <LordAro> i don't think so
19:30:26  <LordAro> you could check a few other things if you like :p
19:30:31  <LordAro> other issues, i mean
19:43:16  <andythenorth> "close them all" :)
19:43:27  <andythenorth> this is all kinds of wrong, but it's nice that dev is a bit less intense
19:44:09  <andythenorth> lots of cool stuff got done earlier this year
19:44:13  <nielsm> well someone who can reproduce the macos insanely-slow-framerate issue and also knows how to operate a compiler and a debugger would be useful
19:44:20  <andythenorth> oh
19:44:21  <andythenorth> yes that
19:44:39  <andythenorth> ok so I upgraded to ?? 10.14.5 Mojave
19:44:45  <andythenorth> and now ffwd no longer ffwds
19:44:55  <andythenorth> previous OS, ffwd was bonkers fast
19:45:01  <andythenorth> I can't debug though
19:45:08  <nielsm> sounds like something about the video output is weird then
19:45:22  <glx> maybe the outdated api ?
19:46:25  <nielsm> right first check if it's using quartz or quickdraw
19:47:05  <nielsm> is it possible to make an sdl or allegro build for mac?
19:47:14  <nielsm> (for comparison)
19:47:30  <andythenorth> we don't rely on OpenGL do we?
19:47:35  <nielsm> no
19:48:03  <glx> pure OS API, like windows
19:49:17  <glx> I think you should be able to know what is used with some driver debug level
19:50:14  <LordAro> which MacOS do we build for?
19:52:54  <glx> target is 10.9 for compile farm if I understand the linking warnings
19:53:44  <LordAro> perhaps using 10.9 API on 10.14 is slowing it down?
19:53:53  <LordAro> or, no, as andythenorth has self-compiled, i presume?
19:54:14  <glx> and there are many 10.8 deprecated stuff still used
19:54:36  <andythenorth> I have self compiled
19:55:02  <andythenorth> apple deprecated OpenGL in 10.14, but dunno if that affects any other OS graphics layers
19:55:07  <LordAro> is performance roughly the same if you try the "official" 1.9.1?
19:55:41  <andythenorth> I'll find out shortly :)
19:56:30  <glx> if old api was using opengl internally maybe
19:58:54  <nielsm> looks like if built with _DEBUG defined and run with -ddriver=1 you get some timing info printed on exit
20:01:21  <nielsm> and then it'd be interesting if src/video/cocoa/'s GetTick implementation has proper resolution or if it's being quantised
20:02:05  <glx> all objC++ source files may need some love I think
20:02:35  <LordAro> taking round the back and shot?
20:02:45  <LordAro> it's the kindest thing for them
20:03:02  <nielsm> the "interesting" thing is that the driver gameloop structure is identical to the allegro driver gameloop, which had similar behaviour on dos when we tested that a while ago
20:03:24  <nielsm> while the win32 and sdl drivers use rather different timing logic
20:03:48  <andythenorth> shall I rent us a mac by the hour? :P
20:04:01  <andythenorth> or you want me to be copy-paste mechanical turk? :)
20:04:43  <andythenorth> stuff
20:06:31  <nielsm> there are no references to opengl in this video driver code, it only creates 2D bitmap surfaces and renders those directly
20:07:01  <nielsm> the drawing itself also doesn't measure slowly
20:07:02  <rubenwardy> fuck apple
20:07:21  <nielsm> remember the old apple slogan? "think different"
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20:12:13  <glx> the last screenshot in (even unrelated to the issue) shows a very slow drawing time
20:12:38  <nielsm> slow but not 15 fps slow
20:13:26  <glx> yes there's something slowing down between drawing and display
20:13:26  <nielsm> and it's dominated by viewport drawing which is not bound by the OS code but the internal blitter
20:14:02  <glx> on the other hand video output rate is quite fast
20:14:12  <nielsm> yep
20:14:39  <nielsm> that's how often WindowQuartzSubdriver::Draw is called
20:15:54  <nielsm>
20:16:06  <nielsm> I think that branch happens too often
20:16:17  <nielsm> or the CSleep(1) call sleeps for too long
20:16:37  <nielsm> though if the CSleep(1) was too slow to return then the video output rate would also suffer
20:16:50  <nielsm> so it's most likely something relating to GetTick() being quantized
20:18:24  <nielsm> could augment it to write a csv file of detailed frame timings and then look at that...
20:18:45  <glx> we clearly need someone with apple hardware and knowledge :)
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20:22:39  <glx> and GetTick() is using gettimeofday()
20:23:08  <glx> there may be a better choice in OSX API
20:25:28  <nielsm> could also try first making GetTick use std::chrono instead
20:26:53  <glx> manpage says "POSIX.1-2008 marks gettimeofday() as obsolete, recommending the use of clock_gettime(2) instead."
20:34:44  <nielsm> cool I did not know apple had their own calendar era too?
20:34:55  <nielsm> (think different)
20:35:18  <nielsm> (not useful)
20:38:14  <nielsm> could be useful:
20:42:57  <nielsm>
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21:32:19  * orudge has Apple hardware, but it's so ancient it can't run a version of Mac OS X supported by the OpenTTD build farm :(
21:32:30  <orudge> and with the price of Apple hardware these days, that's unlikely to change
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22:36:10  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 commented on issue #7626: Building drive through road stop on town-owned one-way road crashes game.
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