Log for #openttd on 25th July 2019:
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00:51:07  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 commented on issue #7602: There are 22 known save games that crash OpenTTD (latest master) on load.
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06:30:29  <andythenorth> yo
06:54:06  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Eddi-z commented on issue #7602: There are 22 known save games that crash OpenTTD (latest master) on load.
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07:59:45  <andythenorth> Horse 98%
08:48:59  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on issue #7602: There are 22 known save games that crash OpenTTD (latest master) on load.
09:01:23  <peter1138> Damn, I'm not signed in to github :/
09:03:28  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN commented on issue #7602: There are 22 known save games that crash OpenTTD (latest master) on load.
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10:08:25  <LordAro> some sort of automated savegame testing is looking increasingly needed
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10:24:56  <peter1138> Go for it ;)
10:43:28  <LordAro> :p
10:43:39  * LordAro melting
11:06:18  <peter1138> :/
11:06:22  <peter1138> Our aircon works :D
11:08:48  <peter1138> As does the automatic ice cube maker.
11:20:56  <andythenorth> our aircon is awaiting an upgraded power connection to the building :p
11:21:08  <nakki> office aircon makes me wanna never leave
11:21:21  <nakki> but i've got three weeks of vacation after tomorrow
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11:59:28  <Samu> the multidocks thing claims its first victim
11:59:34  <Samu> RIP Terron
12:00:48  <Samu> "Your script made an error: empty array"
12:01:10  <Samu> i can't view code on this system
12:03:32  <LordAro> peter1138: ours is broken :(
12:03:47  <LordAro> peter1138: also, what was with your effort this morning? :p
12:07:28  <Samu>
12:07:58  <Samu> opening text files here show everything without paragraphs, all into a single line
12:08:10  <Samu> code files
12:11:15  <Samu> can only execute stuff that doesnt require admin rights
12:11:27  <Samu> bah, have no rights to this system
12:13:31  <LordAro> Samu: don't use notepad
12:15:18  <Samu> trying to download notepad++
12:15:38  <Samu> then hope I can extract it, and run without admin rights
12:16:29  <Samu> wow, i can!
12:16:57  <Samu> i still have a problem... .tar files
12:17:09  <Samu> can't open .tar here, bah, I'm so limited
12:19:49  <Samu> this is my future, handicapped, limited,
12:19:58  <Samu> i hate myself, I hate my life
12:21:28  <Samu> can't do half the things I could before
12:21:43  <LordAro> dare i ask what changed?
12:22:55  <peter1138> LordAro, I... er... Hmm...
12:25:38  <Samu> it's my father... he can't take care of me anytime soon
12:26:03  <Samu> and I'm not independent
12:54:39  <FLHerne> Samu: > everything without paragraphs, all into a single line < is probably your editor being set to use Windows-style line endings (\r\n)
12:55:11  <FLHerne> Whereas most source code uses Unix-style endings (just \n)
12:56:53  <Samu> need to be able to extract .tar files
12:57:02  <Samu> notepad++ can run here
12:57:24  <LordAro> Samu: 7zip shouldn't need installing either
12:57:45  <Samu> ok, let me try
13:01:20  <Samu> can't intall it
13:01:40  <nakki> you don't need to
13:02:03  <Samu> where are you downloading it
13:06:44  <Arveen> there is a portable version of 7zip
13:18:47  <peter1138> "Our supreme 1KG is pack perfect for family sharing or even just for yourself if you are a true Biltong King or Queen."
13:19:04  <peter1138> Well damn, eating 1kg of biltong might have some side effects, heh.
13:34:18  <rubenwardy> it's cured meat, which will keep for ages
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13:49:50  <nielsm> right, power issues and brownouts continued well into the night, so I was probably right in just shutting down and unplugging most stuff last night :s
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16:04:54  <Samu>
16:04:58  <Samu> this will serve
16:18:07  <Samu> okay, terron was trying to build buoys
16:18:20  <Samu> or, actually, pathfinding
16:18:38  <Samu> FindBuoyPath
16:18:53  <Samu> and somewhere it received an empty array error
16:19:06  <Samu> did something change about buoys recently?
16:19:33  <Samu> Quadtree water pathfinder
16:22:16  <Samu> start_dock.GetWaterExit()
16:22:24  <Samu> end_dock.GetWaterExit()
16:22:39  <Samu> how would this work with multidocks..
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17:03:34  <Samu> uhm, forget the multidocks thing
17:04:02  <Samu> terron has some quadtree functions. not sure what's a quadtree, or how it works
17:04:42  <Samu> GetIntersection returned no tiles
17:05:35  <Samu> local qt = big_qt.GetIntersection(x, y, x, y, -1).pop();
17:06:24  <Samu> can't it intersect with itself?
17:06:44  <Samu> i dunno for sure what's it doing though
17:06:55  <Samu> but it doesn't look like a multidock problem after all
17:13:06  <Samu>
17:13:10  <Samu> too complex for me
17:14:46  <Samu> it's not usual to see a Terron crash
17:23:20  <Samu>
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17:49:48  <andythenorth> hi
17:54:30  <andythenorth> what are the tile dimensions of this industry? o_O
17:54:40  <andythenorth> 16x12?
17:55:24  <nielsm> maybe 10x6
17:55:43  <nielsm> or 10x8
17:57:41  <andythenorth> it goes a long way into the distance :)
17:58:22  <nielsm> it looks like a good candidate for multi-building industries :P
18:02:58  <Samu> can this be updated to 1.9.2
18:03:14  <Samu> or there's no changes between 1.9.0 and 1.9.2?
18:05:41  <nielsm> I suppose there are, except I'm not sure the documentation was updated in the source
18:06:00  <nielsm> since iirc in 1.9.2 you can now find train-less wagons in depots
18:06:10  <nielsm> (so they aren't entirely lost)
18:10:11  <Samu> hmm maybe that's why Trans is going dumb
18:10:17  <Samu> about trains
18:10:49  <Samu> what's a train 0?
18:10:54  <Samu> a wagon?
18:11:33  <Samu> Trans builds a rail route, then when it tries to build trains... it goes nuts
18:11:35  <andythenorth> industry sublayouts you think nielsm? o_O
18:12:12  <andythenorth>
18:12:24  <andythenorth> stations are proportionate there? :P
18:14:08  <nielsm> yeah I've talked about it before :) instead of defining a bunch of fixed layouts for industries, you define multiple sets of layouts for different "buildings" (one of them is the main building) and the game places multiple buildings around the area according to some defined rules
18:15:04  <nielsm> well maybe similar could be achieved by adding in the proposed industry-spawned newobjects
18:15:33  <nielsm> though those would probably also need to be defined for cargo accepts/supplies
18:16:05  <nielsm> (IMO it could be interesting if some buildings in an industry only accepted and some only supplied, and it spans a very large area)
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18:20:46  <nielsm> hmm the blitter really doesnt have a way to draw anything that isn't a sprite loaded from a GRF file, right?
18:21:06  <nielsm> (and truetype text is very special cased?)
18:21:25  <LordAro> i think it can draw rectangles as well
18:21:29  <LordAro> :p
18:21:32  <nielsm> well also that
18:22:24  <nielsm> but yeah the thought was how much work it would be to someone render a profile image from an external user inside the game gui, the answer is probably "very much work"
18:22:35  <nielsm> (especially if we're doing 8bpp blitter)
18:22:50  <LordAro> i would expect so, yes
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18:41:04  <nielsm> NetworkAddress::GetAddressAsString() is great to have... but I can't find anything that parses those strings back?
18:42:16  <nielsm> oh, ParseConnectionString
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20:01:29  <Eddi|zuHause>  <andythenorth> what are the tile dimensions of this industry? o_O <-- can easily scale that down to 5x4 or 6x4
20:02:13  <Eddi|zuHause> concentrate on 2 or 3 main buildings, sprinkling in some storage area
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20:04:43  <andythenorth> I already did that :P
20:06:36  <andythenorth> I am mostly curious if huge industries are more useful in game
20:07:10  <Eddi|zuHause> <nielsm> (IMO it could be interesting if some buildings in an industry only accepted and some only supplied, and it spans a very large area) <-- that will only lead to two things: a) players stationwalking to cover the whole industry, b) players complaining that their station doesn't accept X even though they covered the station (see default oil refinery)
20:07:36  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: last time you tried huge industries you complained about the game not being able to spawn them on hilly maps
20:07:52  <andythenorth> yes, that is why they're not in FIRS
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20:08:15  <Eddi|zuHause> you could make it a parameter
20:08:26  <Eddi|zuHause> with a warning that you should play smoother maps if enabled
20:09:03  <Eddi|zuHause> also, some placement check to leave space between industries for stations
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20:10:09  <andythenorth> I'm curious about sub-layouts
20:10:19  <andythenorth> hmm, but I could fake those compile side
20:10:26  <andythenorth> doesn't need OpenTTD changes
20:10:47  <Samu> I think 1.9.2 broke Trans
20:10:59  <Samu> 1.9.1 it still builds trains properly
20:11:34  <Samu> at least from what I remember from my AI tournament
20:12:36  <andythenorth> looks like it's possible to have up to 255 layouts for an industry
20:12:54  <Eddi|zuHause> is that a challenge?
20:13:04  <andythenorth> it's not a very interesting one
20:13:10  <andythenorth> say, 3 sub-modules
20:13:32  <andythenorth> 255 different arrangements  of them
20:13:58  <Eddi|zuHause> 3 sub modules, 4 layouts each, is already 6 bits, leaving 2 bits for macro arrangement
20:14:24  <andythenorth> if I do it compile side, I'd have to faff about with the current height checks
20:14:37  <andythenorth> they assume contiguous layouts
20:15:18  <andythenorth> I'd need to know which sub-layout I was in, which means a very large switch to match the tile index to a sub-layout
20:15:37  <Eddi|zuHause> that sounds backwards
20:16:15  <andythenorth> it does, but I think in this case I'm correct
20:16:25  <Eddi|zuHause> also, couldn't the sublayouts have different heights?
20:16:48  <andythenorth> yes
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20:16:58  <andythenorth> tiles need to be same height within the sub-layout
20:17:09  <andythenorth> but allow different between the sub-layouts
20:17:38  <andythenorth> current code checks that all tiles are same height as N tile (with some faff about allowing lowered corners)
20:17:52  <andythenorth> so instead I'd need to reference the N tile for the sub-layout
20:17:56  <andythenorth> which is possible
20:18:07  <andythenorth> just one big switch, or a lot of small ones
20:18:25  <Eddi|zuHause> the industry's height check would branch into the 3 sublayouts
20:18:36  <Eddi|zuHause> and the 3 sublayouts then check their respective tiles
20:18:41  <andythenorth> if it was done in the newgrf spec, yes
20:19:05  <andythenorth> I am thinking of the compile-side, no spec change solution
20:19:29  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm thinking the same
20:19:58  <andythenorth> well there's no concept afaict of a sub-layout
20:20:02  <andythenorth> only the tile index
20:20:17  <Eddi|zuHause> how does the height check work currently?
20:20:40  <Eddi|zuHause> is it an industry callback, or an industrytile callback, or what?
20:21:28  <andythenorth> industry tile cb
20:21:56  <Samu> how do i download 1.9.1 as a zip?
20:22:09  <Samu> want to check Trans there
20:22:11  <andythenorth> both are possible, but for allowing / forbidding construction on a specific tile, it's a tile cb
20:22:54  <Eddi|zuHause> so it is called for each tile, and you reference PARENT for north corner location?
20:23:24  <andythenorth>
20:23:57  <andythenorth> ^ that is a check that allows building industries that look 'flat' but may actually have lowered corners on some tiles
20:24:07  <andythenorth> which seems to aid not having broken chains somewhat
20:25:54  <Eddi|zuHause> and relative_x/relative_y are industrytile variables?
20:27:10  <Samu> found it
20:27:20  <andythenorth> some kind of expression magic
20:27:52  <andythenorth> actually no, just a var
20:28:51  <Eddi|zuHause> your location check kinda fails if the north corner is not part of the industy (but that's not really the point right now)
20:30:05  <andythenorth> yes there is that case
20:30:37  <andythenorth> there are industries that would fail on that
20:30:43  <Eddi|zuHause> an industry tile has an ID number, right?
20:30:55  <Eddi|zuHause> is that available in this callback?
20:31:04  <andythenorth> I would expect so
20:31:23  <Eddi|zuHause> you could use that number to encode the sublayout position
20:31:54  <andythenorth> only 255 tile IDs, I'm running out...
20:32:17  <Eddi|zuHause> say, you have 3 sublayouts in a 4x4 pattern, then the 1st sublayout gets IDs 0..15, the 2nd 16..31 and the 3rd 32..47
20:32:34  <andythenorth> IDs are scarce
20:32:59  <andythenorth> FIRS has consumed 121 / 256 so far
20:33:01  <Eddi|zuHause> you can reuse tile IDs between industries, right?
20:33:05  <andythenorth> no
20:33:09  <andythenorth> unique to grf
20:33:13  <andythenorth> unless I missed a memo
20:33:24  <andythenorth> "Industry tile IDs are local to the NewGRF, you are free to choose any ID in the 0..255-range"
20:34:01  <andythenorth> it wouldn't be hard to deduce a sub-layout from a tile index, it's just verbose
20:34:05  <Eddi|zuHause> hm, then each industry tile would need to query the industry type of the parent industry to decide anything
20:34:56  <Eddi|zuHause> so each industry tile callback would do a switch on industry type
20:35:30  <Eddi|zuHause> dunno if that has any performance impact
20:35:33  <andythenorth> I could detect the sub-layout early in the chain, store it, reuse it  where needed
20:35:55  <andythenorth> it's something like (number of tiles in the layout) * (number of total  layouts) though
20:36:05  <andythenorth> so it _might_ affect compile time :P
20:36:15  <Eddi|zuHause> that's just a massive lookup table
20:36:35  <andythenorth> yes
20:36:43  <andythenorth> so is bigger desirable? o_O
20:37:02  <andythenorth> that's fake :P
20:37:04  <Eddi|zuHause> definetly would benefit some playstyles
20:37:59  <Eddi|zuHause> but like i said, it should probably be optional
20:38:53  <Samu> just confirmed: Trans can build trains properly in 1.9.1
20:39:12  <andythenorth> Steeltown tends to concentrate many primaries onto a handful of secondaries
20:39:13  <Samu> gonna test 1.9.2 just to be sure
20:39:17  <andythenorth> which seem like they should be bigger
20:39:47  <andythenorth> it's plausible that I could just include bigger layouts, and the game will use the smaller one if it can't manage the bigger
20:40:15  <andythenorth> I can't weight specific layouts trivially though
20:42:00  <andythenorth> CB 28 doesn't have any 'number of attempts' var or similar
20:45:07  <Eddi|zuHause> no, you should not mix small and large layouts
20:45:21  <Samu> strange, it can build trains in 1.9.2
20:45:43  <Samu> something between 1.9.2 and the build on 21st july?
20:45:48  <nielsm>  just playing with window layouts here
20:46:02  <nielsm> needs some more spacing around places
20:46:38  <Eddi|zuHause> too much bloat text, too little context?
20:47:06  <Eddi|zuHause> also, would that turn an SP game into an MP server?
20:47:21  <nielsm> not yet, for the latter
20:47:28  <nielsm> that would be a lot of work :)
20:47:42  <nielsm> right now I only offer it for MP games
20:47:58  <nielsm> and only if the player is not hosting the server
20:48:18  <nielsm> (also need to add detection for local or internet server, so it isn't offered for LAN-only servers)
20:48:45  <Eddi|zuHause> how would you detect that?
20:48:57  <Eddi|zuHause> unadvertised servers can still be internet
20:49:12  <nielsm> check the address of the server
20:49:36  <Eddi|zuHause> that wouldn't detect NAT forwarding
20:49:39  <nielsm> if it's or or one of the other known private networks, assume it's local
20:50:12  <Eddi|zuHause> that'd exclude pretty much any home setup
20:50:30  <nielsm> yes if you're hosting the server inside your own firewall
20:50:37  <nielsm> and playing on the server yourself
20:50:55  <Eddi|zuHause> ... which would be about 100% of your target audience
20:51:48  <nielsm> I haven't tried to handle the "client is the server" case at all yet
20:51:56  <nielsm> there's tons of work on that
20:51:58  <nielsm> I know
20:52:12  <andythenorth> off the last 6 trains for Horse :(
20:52:21  <andythenorth> I am very uninterested in drawing 4 of them :P
20:52:59  <nielsm> the current network protocol itself would also need a way for the client to ask the server for its internet-routable address
20:53:12  <nielsm> which it could maybe (only maybe) get by asking the master server about itself
20:53:59  <Eddi|zuHause> could these "friend" services work as a proxy?
20:54:42  <nielsm> discord does offer a pseudo-p2p connection api that pretends to be stream oriented while actually doing UDP and being capable of NAT punching
20:54:46  <Eddi|zuHause> (that might avoid loads of router configuration problems, but open a new can of worms)
20:54:52  <nielsm> but then you have to buy into their API wholesale
20:55:43  <nielsm> or we could implement our own version of the same, though it would require some cooperation of a master server of some sort
20:55:55  <Eddi|zuHause> nielsm: but that you could handle inside your DLL, which would just open a local port that pretends to be the server?
20:56:08  <nielsm> maybe possible
20:56:40  <Eddi|zuHause> or pretends to be the client, on the server side
20:58:14  <Eddi|zuHause> that might actually be an interesting feature to pursue
20:58:14  <nielsm> but when if the server is a dedicated server running on linux on machine A on my home network, machine A is not exposed on the router, and I play from machine B running windows, and then I invite my friend to play? there is no discord API or network proxy on machine A
20:58:24  <nielsm> then machine B would have to act as proxy?
20:59:56  <Eddi|zuHause> well, you could still try to figure out the public IP first, and fallback to the proxy method if it fails
20:59:58  <Samu> hmm question, where can I download the nightly of 22nd july?
21:00:03  <Samu> current one is 23
21:01:01  <Eddi|zuHause> or disable the invite functionality in certain conditions
21:01:23  <Samu> still chasing a bug
21:01:41  <nielsm> Eddi|zuHause: that's why I initially intend to disable it if the server is the local machine, or the server is a known private network IP range
21:02:17  <nielsm> yes it shuts out a lot of the most interesting cases, but it's also much less work initially
21:03:19  <Eddi|zuHause> nielsm: i'd rather pursue the "A plays on his windows PC on a non-dedicated server" case rather than worry about "but what if the server is on linux?"
21:04:00  <nielsm> right now starting a listen server does not even mark you as being in a multiplayer game :P
21:04:04  <Eddi|zuHause> or, on starting the server you decide whether it should be announced on the masterserver, via discord, or both
21:04:07  <nielsm> (it doesn't even mark you as being in a game at all!)
21:04:14  <Samu> i know you guys are busy, but hmm, no way to download old nightlies?
21:04:35  <Samu> just 1 day older than current
21:04:55  <nielsm> Samu you can try to guess the URL from date and revision hash
21:05:05  <nielsm> there were only 3 commits on the 22nd so very few hashes to try
21:05:42  <LordAro> hmm, still no listing of old nightlies, is there?
21:05:48  <LordAro> is it 90 that are kept?
21:06:20  <Samu> gonna try to guess :o
21:06:33  <Eddi|zuHause> LordAro: i don't know how it is currently, but there used to be some cutoff where only sources of nightlies were ckept
21:06:51  <Eddi|zuHause> the binaries get discarded
21:07:32  <LordAro> maybe that's what i'm thinking of
21:08:06  <Samu> it has a page
21:08:36  <Samu> and it downloads, ok, testing... brb
21:12:10  <Samu> bug is present on 20190722
21:12:17  <Samu> not present on 20190723
21:12:44  <Samu> fml, i built my experimental build based on 22nd
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21:14:28  <Samu> i'm stuck, i need my computer t.t
21:14:47  <Samu> oh well, at least I know what it is now
21:14:55  <Samu> it's not Trans, it was openttd
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21:16:11  <Samu> thx, cyas
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21:17:41  <nielsm> Eddi|zuHause: if you want to inspect or even test, I pushed my ottd branch and my discord dll now
21:17:55  <nielsm> actually I should maybe make a new dll build
21:18:05  <Eddi|zuHause> nielsm: i don't have any windows available
21:18:11  <nielsm> ok
21:18:13  <Eddi|zuHause> nor discord
21:18:21  <nielsm> good
21:18:23  <nielsm> :)
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21:18:34  <nielsm> (I'd also prefer to be without discord)
21:27:23  <glx> but nothing really changed in this area between 22 and 23
21:27:40  <glx> oups was scrolled
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21:35:35  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, youtube, i definitely want to watch this new video "ABC" by this up-and-coming band "Jackson 5"
21:36:48  <andythenorth> lol`
21:38:26  <Eddi|zuHause> (that probably came out before i was born)
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