Log for #openttd on 20th August 2019:
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05:43:02  <Eddi|zuHause> always these IRC Noobs who don't have the patience to wait 6 hours for a reply
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05:59:25  <LordAro> Eddi|zuHause: they did better than most
06:00:04  <LordAro> just asked at the wrong time
06:00:42  <LordAro> not sure what could be going wrong though, i don't think i've ever used make install
06:01:10  <LordAro> probably a PATH issue
06:01:23  <Eddi|zuHause> that was my first thought, too
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12:55:25  <scuddles>
12:55:30  <scuddles> feels NARS man
13:02:19  <Wolf01> It's me or it looks like a gif?
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13:39:14  <peter1139> scuddles :D
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14:44:35  <Samu> I don't understand. Now that the AI is more flexible with road pathfinder/management, it's performing worse.. :(
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14:51:21  <Eddi|zuHause> doesn't look like a terribly efficient track layout
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14:55:12  <andythenorth_> o/
14:56:01  <LordAro> is it
14:56:04  <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: i think that's just opengfx's quality
14:56:14  <andythenorth_> Lunch or coffee?
14:56:20  <LordAro> coffee
14:56:33  <Eddi|zuHause> if coffee includes cake, i'm in
14:57:16  <andythenorth_> Can anyone build Iron Horse and publish the docs?
14:57:25  <andythenorth_> I am away from my laptop
14:57:40  <andythenorth_> :p
14:58:43  <andythenorth_> I am using a device that probably can’t open zips :p
14:59:06  <andythenorth_> Wonder if it can run python? o_O
15:01:37  <andythenorth_> Hmm there are apps that use a remote server to compile the python :p
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15:31:57  <Eddi|zuHause> (not sure i want to know what he's doing)
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15:45:25  <andythenorth_> Trains are complicated :p
15:46:09  <andythenorth_> 4 axle diesels vs 6 axles reasons complex
15:46:12  <FLHerne> andythenorth_: What's your device? Termux gives you a pretty complete Linux userspace on Android things
15:46:33  <andythenorth_> iPad, everything is sandboxed
15:46:56  <andythenorth_> But there’s some equivalent of Termux
15:47:43  <FLHerne> There's a reason I didn't get an iPhone :P
15:48:02  <FLHerne> (well, more that I object to paying Apple to write software for my own device)
15:48:30  <FLHerne> But having a Linux kernel is certainly helpful
15:49:03  * andythenorth_ designing North American Horse
15:49:31  <FLHerne> Now I have a complete cmake, clang, Python, blah toolchain in my pocket which is always fun
15:49:34  <andythenorth_> US trains are unhelpful for game design
15:50:07  <andythenorth_> UK trains have mostly tended to faster, stronger, higher capacity per unit
15:50:20  <andythenorth_> Very game suitable
15:51:55  <FLHerne> Whereas the US has mostly gone backward since 1970?
15:52:16  <andythenorth_> US passenger trains were anecdotally hitting 120mph in the 1930s
15:52:28  <andythenorth_> and have got slower since
15:53:20  <andythenorth_> Steam engines hit 5000hp per unit in the 1930s, large diesels are 3000-4000hp
15:53:53  <andythenorth_> fast freight was 80mph, now restricted to 60 in most places
15:54:10  <arikover> Damn trucks!
15:54:52  <andythenorth_> AC motors have replaced DC on large diesels, and can tolerate more low speed maximum power operation
15:55:13  <andythenorth_> So freightbtrains have fewer engines and less hp-per-ton
15:55:30  <andythenorth_> They just go on their knees and crawl up hills slowly
15:56:06  <andythenorth_> Very inconvenient for game design in OpenTTD meta
15:56:19  <andythenorth_> :D
15:56:25  <FLHerne> andythenorth_: "large diesels are 3000-4000hp" is mostly because they can multi easily?
15:56:39  <andythenorth_> Yes, completely
15:57:05  <FLHerne> There was one generation of huge multi-prime-mover diesels and turbines that were meant to replace large steam locos 1:1
15:57:08  * andythenorth_ assumes the OpenTTD meta id
15:57:35  <FLHerne> And then everyone realised that was the wrong approach
15:57:37  <andythenorth_> ...meta is “moar, faster, in fewer tiles”
15:58:26  <arikover> andythenorth_: Plus in OTTD North America, things don't have to be 100% like in real world North America...
15:58:31  <FLHerne> Eh, at least double-stack containers are a plus
15:58:41  <andythenorth_> Yes to both
15:58:49  <FLHerne> (but you might need to invent non-clipping tunnels, finally)
16:02:38  <andythenorth_> Are there any other metas besides “moar”? :p
16:02:38  <andythenorth_> “Model trains” ?
16:03:14  <FLHerne> Yes
16:04:07  <FLHerne> Although in that case, "moar" helps mitigate the ludicrous effects of town growth
16:04:22  <FLHerne> (might be easier now it's non-quadratic)
16:04:23  <andythenorth_> Is “coop” a meta?
16:04:32  <andythenorth_> SRNW and all that jazz
16:04:47  <FLHerne> Not one worth caring about as a set designer, probably?
16:06:38  <FLHerne> Appearance doesn't matter, all the trains are standardized and upgrading them would break the magic
16:06:48  <andythenorth_> Is “stability” a valid meta? :p
16:07:28  <andythenorth_> After 1930 net performance is the same, but train units change stats and appearance
16:07:42  <FLHerne> No
16:07:42  <andythenorth_> :p
16:07:51  <andythenorth_> Boring??
16:08:46  <FLHerne> Traffic density rises as you connect more stuff and grow towns/industries
16:09:31  <FLHerne> With increasing capacity, you can hope to make incremental improvements to the core network
16:09:46  <andythenorth_> So one thing about ~1930s
16:10:02  <FLHerne> A "stable" set would just force building effectively point-to-point connections for every new route, which would be boring
16:10:23  <andythenorth_> There is big difference between anecdotes of high speed, and actual speeed
16:10:41  <FLHerne> Trying to grow an existing network without breaking the whole thing is a lot more fun than building one in the first place
16:11:19  <andythenorth_> Averages are much lower than the rare headline grabbing speeds
16:11:30  <andythenorth_> And not all engines were huge 5000hp monsters
16:11:30  <andythenorth_> Many were older and smaller
16:13:18  <andythenorth_> US railroads are remarkably aggressive with engine replacement though, many lasted 10-15 years, then worn out or superceded
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16:13:54  * andythenorth_ wonders about compressed generations, 20 years not 3p
16:14:01  <andythenorth_> 30 *
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16:18:55  <andythenorth_> More drawing eh :p
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16:34:14  <Wolf01> Sooooo we are again governless
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16:44:09  <acklen> join the club!
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16:46:19  <arikover> I think the base strings in French should be updated. How do I do that ? Being registered as NewGRF translator doesn't help, right ? Is there something similar for base strings, or should I send a pull request on Github ?
16:47:36  <nielsm>
16:49:16  <Samu> I still don't understand how can convoy be so strong
16:49:25  <Samu> there's more than just that trick
16:49:37  <arikover> nielsm: Thank you !
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16:56:53  <arikover> nielsm: Ok, I'm already registered here apparently, but have no access to the "OpenTTD trunk" project.
16:57:25  <nielsm> there's some email you need to write to ask permission
16:57:31  <nielsm> I think
16:58:55  <Samu> i'm bad at variable names
16:58:57  <Samu> last_managed_management
16:59:08  <Samu> last_managed_array
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17:01:24  <Samu> last_managed_array should be route
17:01:59  <Samu> the other..
17:02:17  <Samu> I have 9 "managers"
17:03:56  <Samu> "managing route " + i + ". expandStations"
17:03:59  <Samu> managing route " + i + ". addremoveVehicleToRoute
17:04:13  <Samu> "managing route " + i + ". updateEngine" etc...
17:04:28  <Samu> i is the route
17:04:52  <Samu> expandStations, addremoveVehicleToRoute, etc.. are the managing portion
17:05:12  <Samu> and i manage both i and that
17:05:18  <Samu> i dunno what to call those
17:06:03  <Samu> last_managed_management :p
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17:13:58  <arikover> nielsm: Thank you again!
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18:57:40  <Samu> I need advice, my AI underperforms before 1965, when Hereford Leopard Bus becomes available
18:57:58  <Samu> MPS Regal Bus
18:58:43  <Samu> it's a slow bus, initial towns are also smaller
18:59:46  <Samu> some don't even grow
19:00:42  <Samu> it's hard to maintain a good station rating with this bus, unless i make the routes very short
19:02:13  <Samu> then i watch convoy, and I wonder... what did he do better that I didn't already?
19:02:34  <Samu> he obliterates everyone
19:02:42  <Samu> time and time again
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19:03:26  <Samu> early game, convoy reigns supreme
19:03:36  <Samu> he's the master of MPS Regal Bus
19:04:38  <Samu> he manages to get 500 buses before Hereford Leopard Bus, against 14 other AIs in sub tropic or sub-arctic
19:05:26  <glx> passenger only or does it also moves coal ?
19:05:39  <Samu> passengers only, I limited all AIs to passengers
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19:06:40  <Samu> before I implemented the convoy trick of delaying the start of buses, my AI was really trash
19:06:56  <Samu> convoy must have some other tricks
19:07:03  <Samu> and I can't see what
19:07:58  <glx> I guess it does not only delay, but maybe also manage the timetable
19:09:29  <Samu> hmm i think there's no timetable support for AIs
19:12:52  <Samu> i've also disabled distant join stations, to make them all play without station spreading tricks
19:13:11  <Samu> play as clean as possible
19:18:12  <Samu> must check openttd code
19:18:47  <Samu> find out the exact timing between buses
19:28:10  <Samu> 3 for max rating
19:28:13  <Samu> 3 days
19:28:29  <Samu> but i can't put a bus every 3 days...
19:29:01  <Samu> at least on towns that dont produce decent quantities of passengers, and against that many AIs
19:30:37  <Samu> well, 3 days, have to experiment
19:48:58  <Samu> estimate buses needed, convoy got 14 on a route of distance 119
19:50:00  <Samu> optimal vehicle count, ludiai afterfix got 13 on a route with distance 95
19:51:13  <Samu> @calc 119/14
19:51:13  <DorpsGek> Samu: 8.5
19:51:19  <Samu> @calc 95/13
19:51:19  <DorpsGek> Samu: 7.30769230769
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20:38:53  <Samu> convoy uses bus stops, i use drivethroughs or bus stops, depending on what's most suitable
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20:39:12  <Samu> but most of the time it's drivethrough
20:41:52  <andythenorth_> So 10/8 vehicles then? o_O
20:41:55  <Samu> the advantage of bus stops is that it creates a "queue" of buses waiting for each other to enter the station, it's maintaining the rating higher for longer
20:42:06  <andythenorth_> With no newgrf tricks??
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20:43:33  <Samu> no newgrfs here
20:45:12  <Samu> hmm my AI stops adding buses after what it thinks it's the max route cap
20:45:21  <Samu> it's underestimating :(
20:46:08  <Samu> I stopped at 18, Convoy already has 25+ buses on their routes
20:47:51  <Samu> that bus stop "trick", if you may call it
20:48:16  <Samu> also increases the chances that buses have something to load
20:48:46  <Samu> even if just 1 passenger
20:50:29  <Samu> okay, so 2 problems after all
20:51:01  <Samu> bad route cap estimate, and bus stops being better than drivethrough for cargo rating
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20:53:09  <Samu> i dont feel like doing changes to drivethrough/busstop code. it's already complex
20:53:31  <Samu> but i can tweak the esimator a bit
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20:55:15  <andythenorth_> Silly disconnects, I give up : p
21:09:20  <Samu> perhaps now I'm overestimating... we'll see
21:09:26  <Samu> from 13 to 23
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21:10:55  <Samu> fast forward is so slow
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