Log for #openttd on 1st September 2019:
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06:40:48  <AquaFiX> in regards to Running soap with supybot i have getting issues regarding Error: No module named enums and Error: cannot import name IntFlag, I have installed libottdadmin2, and OFS correctlys, libottdadmin2 shows in pip freeze i am not sure the issue. Python -V Python 2.7.13
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06:50:19  <nielsm> that's probably because the enum module was introduced in python 3.4
06:50:48  <nielsm> IntFlag is even from python 3.6
06:53:39  <AquaFiX> so force to 3.6.4 and should resolve issues.
06:54:35  <nielsm> yes
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08:30:00  <andythenorth_> So how about a new industry cb, “town wants to grow”
08:30:23  <andythenorth_> Results: allow | disallow | neutral
08:30:28  <andythenorth_> ??
08:31:11  <nielsm> maybe town growth effect -16 to +16
08:31:20  * andythenorth_ continues quest to improve town cargos like building materials, vehicles etc
08:32:29  * andythenorth_ going on a plane ride now, but the idea is interesting
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11:37:41  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] uvealonso commented on pull request #7705: Fix #7704: [OSX] Handle malformed UTF8 strings
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11:46:22  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] uvealonso updated pull request #7705: Fix #7704: [OSX] Handle malformed UTF8 strings
11:50:00  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] uvealonso commented on pull request #7705: Fix #7704: [OSX] Handle malformed UTF8 strings
11:50:21  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] uvealonso commented on pull request #7705: Fix #7704: [OSX] Handle malformed UTF8 strings
12:01:38  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc approved pull request #7705: Fix #7704: [OSX] Handle malformed UTF8 strings
12:01:38  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc approved pull request #7705: Fix #7704: [OSX] Handle malformed UTF8 strings
12:01:55  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc merged pull request #7705: Fix #7704: [OSX] Handle malformed UTF8 strings
12:01:55  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc closed issue #7704: Crash on MacOS when server has invalid UTF8 name string
12:02:39  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on pull request #7705: Fix #7704: [OSX] Handle malformed UTF8 strings
12:05:50  <nielsm> so, 1.9.3 or begin preparing 1.10 ?
12:06:25  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] uvealonso commented on pull request #7705: Fix #7704: [OSX] Handle malformed UTF8 strings
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12:49:32  <AquaFiX> Ok if anyone has any experience with SOAP for supybot/Limnoria
12:49:38  <AquaFiX> i am interested to talk to you
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12:58:41  <Eddi|zuHause> what happened to "we might go for a more frequent release schedule"?
12:59:45  <frosch123> maybe there is a dependency on cets
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13:05:55  <Eddi|zuHause> that would have been a risky tactical decision
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13:39:57  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on issue #7651: Too many statues/fountains are built in town centers.
13:40:23  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh closed issue #7659: Railway construction menu disappears
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13:42:28  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh closed issue #7645: Bug? Train Depots not working as expected
13:42:29  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on issue #7645: Bug? Train Depots not working as expected
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13:46:16  <nielsm> I'm going through the issues and adding any I think ought to be fixed before 1.10 to the milestone
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13:55:49  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on issue #7624: Changing rolling stock reverts on next visit to depot
13:57:14  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on issue #7525: Autorenew vehicle option to Basic settings
13:59:47  <Samu> autorenew defaulted to on?
13:59:58  <Samu> that will break my AI at least
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14:00:05  <Samu> maybe others
14:00:38  <nielsm> who said autorenew should default to on?
14:01:55  <glx> and AI can change the setting anyway
14:02:57  <Samu> autorenew / autoreplace should be able to maintain vehicle IDs
14:03:18  <glx> Samu: AICompany::SetAutoRenewStatus(false); in your AI init should be enough
14:03:33  <Samu> oki
14:03:37  <glx> especially if you explicitely don't want it
14:03:58  <glx> never trust default settings of the user ;)
14:06:11  <glx> and you can also check GetAutoRenewStatus() before
14:07:20  <glx> anyway autorenew/autoreplace can't maintain vehicle IDs
14:07:39  <glx> as a new vehicle always get a new ID
14:13:55  <Samu> unable to keep track of vehicleIDs is the biggest threat during vehicle management
14:16:13  <glx> maybe a new AIEvent can be added
14:20:35  <nielsm> the scourge of having MS symbol servers enabled in visual studio...
14:20:48  <nielsm> taking forever to start a debugging session after windows update
14:21:05  <glx> luckily it's cached
14:21:12  <nielsm> yeah
14:21:25  <nielsm> it's just that updates tend to touch way too many files in minor ways
14:21:39  <nielsm> meaning 90% of the dlls need to have their symbols re-downloaded
14:21:57  <glx> hmm yeah my next debug session will be a pain, I just upgraded to 1903 from 1803
14:22:13  <Samu> create new vehicle, move statistics or infos from old vehicle to new vehicle, then delete old vehicle, create another new vehicle, move statistics from the new vehicle to the another new vehicle
14:22:23  <Samu> will it get the same id?
14:22:29  <glx> no
14:22:39  <glx> a new vehicle is new, so new ID
14:22:52  <nielsm> IDs get reused don't they?
14:22:57  <Samu> yes
14:23:05  <nielsm> it's not like slots in the vehicle array are left empty forever
14:23:10  <nielsm> (that would be a memory leak)
14:23:12  <glx> but as I said, a new AIEvent can help
14:23:25  <nielsm> the new vehicle _might_ get the ID of the deleted one
14:23:33  <nielsm> but another company might have built a vehicle in the meantime
14:23:43  <nielsm> or there might be a different ID free earlier in the list
14:24:11  * glx goes looking in the code
14:25:37  <frosch123> the new vehicle never gets the same id
14:25:47  <frosch123> the new vehicle is created before the old one is deleted
14:26:00  <nielsm> yes
14:26:23  <nielsm> the question is if you then create another new vehicle after deleting the replaced one, will the second new vehicle get the ID of the replaced one
14:26:32  <nielsm> and the answer is "maybe, in some cases"
14:26:55  <frosch123> ok, i should have guessed that the question is even more arcane :)
14:28:59  <Samu> I still remember my AI sending aircraft to bus stations
14:29:07  <Samu> thx to autorenew
14:30:09  <Samu> or that randomly lost aircraft with no orders for no reason whatsoever
14:31:40  <nielsm> slightly more sensible, and yet not...
14:32:50  <glx> maybe always use 3 lines per entry
14:33:25  <glx> name\ncompany\nqualification
14:34:38  <nielsm> ugh okay yeah I tried sprinkling ScaleGUITrad all over the code and the results just don't get good
14:34:58  <nielsm> I'll probably have to rework the layout to depend on actual font sizes and such
14:35:05  <nielsm> instead of magical numbers
14:36:03  <nielsm> broken in a different way!
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14:37:06  <nielsm> or maybe...
14:37:31  <nielsm>  yeah this looks (mostly) right
14:37:59  <nielsm> the 5 overlapping the border $ is a shame
14:38:28  <nielsm> it's the same in 1x gui and font scale
14:38:59  <nielsm>  wrong in 1x gui with 2x font
14:39:29  <nielsm>  and dumb in 2x gui with 1x font
14:40:41  <nielsm> is there a way to get the background image drawn in a custom scale not dependent on the user GUI scale...
14:41:15  <nielsm> would be nice if it could scale it to fit screen (nearest integer scale factor smaller than actual resolution)
14:41:23  <nielsm> and then dynamically position the text based on font size
14:42:05  <nielsm> hm okay DrawSprite and GetSpriteSize do take a zoom parameter
14:42:11  <nielsm> so could do some magic with that
14:42:24  <frosch123> the scaling is not done while drawing
14:42:41  <frosch123> all images are prescaled when loading the sprites and then stored scaled
14:43:48  <frosch123> anyway, whenever the highscore or the win screen is broken, i wonder whether to delete them :p
14:45:46  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh opened pull request #7714: Fix #7702: Scaling for highscore screen
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15:08:27  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] j-pet updated pull request #7699: Fix: Possible double path separator in FiosMakeFilename
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15:34:37  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] j-pet commented on pull request #7699: Fix: Possible double path separator in FiosMakeFilename
15:38:38  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] j-pet commented on pull request #7699: Fix: Possible double path separator in FiosMakeFilename
15:50:41  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] j-pet commented on pull request #7699: Fix: Possible double path separator in FiosMakeFilename
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16:41:47  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 opened pull request #7715: Fix b870596: forgotten squirrel_export run
16:47:43  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh approved pull request #7715: Fix b870596: forgotten squirrel_export run
16:54:04  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 merged pull request #7715: Fix b870596: forgotten squirrel_export run
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17:10:37  <andythenorth> hurrah
17:10:47  <andythenorth> holidays are nice, but so is proper internet
17:10:52  <andythenorth> and a proper irc cliet
17:10:58  <andythenorth> or client
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17:14:08  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 opened pull request #7716: Add: [Script] ScriptEventVehicleAutoReplaced.
17:15:06  <glx> it's totally not tested
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17:18:26  <Samu> uhm... hardly useful
17:18:46  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on pull request #7716: Add: [Script] ScriptEventVehicleAutoReplaced.
17:19:29  <glx> Samu: why ?
17:19:40  <nielsm> Samu what else could it be? It's an event that indicates that a vehicle has been automatically replaced with a new one, and gives you the old and new ID
17:20:03  <nielsm> it's exactly what's necessary to keep track of vehicles internally by a script
17:20:40  <Samu> the problem is difficult to describe
17:20:52  <nielsm> then you are not understanding it
17:21:29  <Samu> i am iterating vehicleids in a for loop, doing the usual management stuff, iterating over a list of vehicles
17:22:05  <Samu> suddenly, one of the vehicles in that list is autorenewed, while im still executing the for loop
17:22:41  <Samu> when the for loop iterates the old vehicle id, it may already belong to another vehicle
17:22:50  <Samu> it could be an aircraft
17:23:01  <Samu> while the list was supposedly only road vehicles
17:23:07  <nielsm> oh so the entire structure of your code is bad
17:23:30  <nielsm> it sticks inside long operations without handling events
17:24:04  <Wormnest_> iirc it´s not guaranteed that you always receive all events, which means you can´t count on the event to update your vehicle ids
17:24:12  <nielsm> what Windows would call "application is not responding" (and fade out the entire application window)
17:24:37  <nielsm> seriously, events can be lost? is there a length limit on the queue?
17:24:53  <nielsm> (if then, the answer is still "process events more often")
17:25:12  <Wormnest_> I might remember it wrong, haven´t looked into it in a long time
17:25:49  <Samu> i'd propose a vehicle list function
17:26:20  <Samu> something that could re-route to the correct vehicle
17:26:27  <Samu> when it's updated
17:26:48  <glx> that's up to the AI writer
17:26:50  <Samu> as long as that list exists
17:27:59  <Samu> something that auto corrects veh ids in vehicle lists
17:28:14  <Samu> without me constantly checking for events
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17:29:13  <glx> and how the game is supposed to know about existing lists in the AI VM ?
17:29:25  <Samu> there's AITileLists
17:29:32  <Samu> for tiles
17:29:44  <Samu> i thought there could be another specific for vehicles
17:31:07  <glx> lists created by AIs are not readable by the game engine
17:31:27  <glx> and they never will be
17:32:35  <Samu> I'm unsure about the event, I'd have to check for that event thoroughly
17:32:51  <Samu> even perhaps inside for loops
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17:33:04  <Samu> i don't think that's too useful
17:33:31  <Samu> autorenew can happen in a matter of 1 frame
17:33:42  <glx> like a vehicle crash
17:33:49  <glx> there's an event for that too
17:34:24  <nielsm> well a crashed vehicle stays around for a while
17:34:40  <nielsm> so it's less likely to cause a problem
17:35:18  <glx> but it can if the list loop is time consuming
17:35:35  <nielsm> yep
17:35:43  <Samu> it usually is
17:35:45  <nielsm> coming back to the core problem: not handling events
17:36:32  <Samu> handling 500 road vehicles for my AI takes about 3 days
17:36:48  <nielsm> instead of having a simple loop over all vehicles, check a few vehicles at a time, then go back to handle events, then check some more vehicles (but without keeping state from the previous check round)
17:37:09  <nielsm> that's more than 200 ticks, lots of things can happen in 200 ticks
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17:45:45  <Samu> so... the better solution is ... fix autorenew/autoreplace to make it keep the same veh id
17:45:59  <glx> that's not possible
17:46:22  <glx> because the new vehicle is created before the old one is removed
17:46:54  <Samu> is the new vehicle really needed to be created?
17:47:14  <Samu> can't just change data of the vehicle instead?
17:48:54  <nielsm> that would be a big source of potential bugs
17:49:25  <nielsm> properties forgotten or mishandled in subtle ways
17:49:27  <glx> while creation and deletion use existing commands
17:50:00  <glx> with cargo transfert between old and new
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17:52:54  <glx> and using existing commands takes care of all checks
17:53:40  <glx> without duplicating them (another source of potential bugs)
17:55:04  <glx> and if you don't want to rely on events, you still have the option to disable autorenew for the company
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18:13:58  <andythenorth> industry town growth then? o_O
18:14:40  <nielsm> sure but it needs some specifications :D
18:15:01  <nielsm> like what happens if one industry wants town to grow and another wants it to stagnate?
18:15:38  <nielsm> are town growth effects queried via a cb? how often?
18:16:08  <nielsm> should town window show something about the cumulative effect of industries on its growth?
18:16:23  <andythenorth> AIUI there's some 'town wants to grow' game event currently
18:16:59  <nielsm> can industries cause towns to grow faster than normal, or just discourage or prevent growth?
18:17:47  * andythenorth had better read how towns grow in src :)
18:18:05  <andythenorth> my preferred solution is to inject something into what we've got
18:18:50  <andythenorth> although...sometimes people with more vision have better ideas :)
18:18:53  <nielsm> and if multiple industries pull in the same direction positive/negative growth effect, is it summed, multiplied, root of sum of squares, min/max, or something else
18:19:55  <andythenorth> ok so I am a bad person to design specs, because I only have FIRS cases
18:20:11  <andythenorth> my case goes something like
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18:20:41  <andythenorth> IF a town doesn't have a certain type of industry, let town handle growth
18:20:46  <nielsm> but yes some concrete use cases would be a useful basis for designing a spec :)
18:20:59  <andythenorth> IF a town does have industry of type x, let industries influence town growth
18:21:16  <andythenorth> there might be more than one industry of type x
18:21:30  <andythenorth> and there might also be types y, z, a, b, c etc
18:21:53  <andythenorth> I want to be able to (1) prevent all growth
18:22:06  <andythenorth> (2) make growth happen faster than default
18:22:22  <andythenorth> hmm, can towns shrink? :P
18:23:22  <nielsm> they don't really have a procedure for it no
18:23:52  <andythenorth> they do actually shrink if playing before 1930, but that's a bug :)
18:24:15  * andythenorth ignores that
18:24:20  <nielsm> but bugs can cause thw town zones to break in weird ways and cause a town to build low-density all the way through
18:24:33  <nielsm> at least I've seen that happen once with the UK town replacement set
18:24:49  <andythenorth> with base set, theatres, statues
18:24:54  <andythenorth> fountains
18:24:55  <nielsm> yeah
18:24:58  <andythenorth> population collapse
18:25:51  <andythenorth> so for basic rationale, I just want to give player a reason to deliver cargos like building materials and vehicles
18:26:18  <nielsm> town buildings probably ought to have an "is a park/plaza" flag and avoid building too many of those relative to population and/or radius
18:26:29  <andythenorth> probably
18:26:50  <andythenorth> I don't know how industry influence would interact with, e.g. requirements for food, water etc
18:26:53  <andythenorth> or with GS
18:27:12  <nielsm> I haven't checked how GS town growth control works either
18:27:18  <andythenorth> I'm not looking for "industry controls all town behaviour", that would be wrong
18:27:47  <andythenorth> I don't even want to talk about GS route, it seems to cause rage quits and arguments :)
18:28:36  * andythenorth wonders if it would only be industries in town catchments
18:28:44  <andythenorth> power plants are an interesting case
18:28:54  <andythenorth> what if towns didn't grow unless nearby power plant is serviced
18:29:01  <andythenorth> what's 'nearby' in that case?
18:29:20  <nielsm> nearest industry of type to town center?
18:29:34  <nielsm> then every town would need to keep track of various types of industries
18:30:11  <andythenorth> interesting
18:35:08  <frosch123> you can probably write a gs which makes towns require oil to grow, but lowers the requirement when powerplants are serviced
18:39:14  <milek7> there is GS that assign industries to cities
18:39:25  <milek7> and increases growth dependent on cargo tyeps
18:39:29  <milek7> and increases growth dependent on cargo types
18:44:01  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] uvealonso commented on pull request #7705: Fix #7704: [OSX] Handle malformed UTF8 strings
18:48:55  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on pull request #7705: Fix #7704: [OSX] Handle malformed UTF8 strings
18:52:58  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] uvealonso commented on pull request #7705: Fix #7704: [OSX] Handle malformed UTF8 strings
19:00:35  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] uvealonso commented on pull request #7705: Fix #7704: [OSX] Handle malformed UTF8 strings
19:02:23  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on pull request #7705: Fix #7704: [OSX] Handle malformed UTF8 strings
19:06:02  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] uvealonso commented on pull request #7705: Fix #7704: [OSX] Handle malformed UTF8 strings
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19:21:48  <Samu> GS'es are evil
19:22:08  <Samu> imagine a FIRS GS
19:23:19  <Samu> there can be only one GS :(
19:23:26  <Samu> main drawback
19:24:16  <nielsm> because lots of things GS can do are of the category "imagine if two attempted doing this at the same time"
19:24:57  <nielsm> i.e. things that don't have a good resolution if separate actors are pulling in each their direction
19:25:06  <nielsm> they'll pull the rug out from under each other
19:25:14  <andythenorth> the GS route is old ground :)
19:25:25  * andythenorth doesn't want to retread it
19:26:35  <andythenorth> an alternative route I could pursue is to delete town cargos
19:26:41  <andythenorth> and just ignore towns in the game
19:26:46  <nielsm> but really the entire execution model for both AI and GS are wrong: AI ought to run entirely asynchronously as its own process, observing the game, and GS ought to run synchronously and not have events but callbacks
19:26:59  <andythenorth> hindsight :)
19:27:39  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc opened pull request #7717: Codechange: [OSX] Use std::unique_ptr with a custom deleter to simply…
19:27:43  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc commented on pull request #7717: Codechange: [OSX] Use std::unique_ptr with a custom deleter to simply…
19:27:50  <andythenorth> there's a new version of Steeltown in dev, where town cargos are pretty much non-existent
19:27:55  <andythenorth> it's much bette
19:27:57  <andythenorth> better *
19:28:41  <andythenorth> imho, town growth mechanic is the only major flaw in original TTD
19:29:09  <nielsm> someone should have a scriptedclient video driver, headless client that runs a script and connects to a multiplayer server :)
19:29:17  <nielsm> s/have/make/
19:30:37  <nielsm> towns don't really have an economy of their own, you don't have rich and poor towns, industrial and commercial towns, etc.
19:31:07  <andythenorth> somebody (ahem TB) made a spec for this
19:31:19  <andythenorth> unifying GS and newgrf
19:31:39  <andythenorth> but it fell in the rage quit hole :)
19:33:15  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on pull request #7717: Codechange: [OSX] Use std::unique_ptr with a custom deleter to simply…
19:33:22  <nielsm> bikeshedding a bit here
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19:40:27  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth commented on issue #7651: Too many statues/fountains are built in town centers.
19:47:02  <michi_cc> nielsm: LLVM uses CFReleaser somewhere in the internals, but that's not exactly a strong argument either.
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21:19:12  <FLHerne> "imagine if two attempted doing this at the same time"
21:19:58  <FLHerne> nielsm: But that's the case for newgrfs already, and no-one cares that you can totally break the game
21:20:31  <FLHerne> Industries are probably the best example there
21:22:28  <FLHerne> Also anything that modifies base vehicles or graphics
21:23:00  <FLHerne> Or sets trying to define railtypes in incompatible ways
21:23:32  <andythenorth> MultiGS? :P
21:23:42  * andythenorth wonders why
21:23:43  <FLHerne> We just shrug and say "don't do that"
21:26:17  <FLHerne> Because GSes can do a lot of orthogonal things and it would be nice to pick-and-choose a bit more
21:28:34  <FLHerne> e.g. there's a GS that allows limiting companies to one rail depot, to avoid the random point-to-point sprawl
21:29:28  <andythenorth> hmm
21:29:32  <FLHerne> But you can't use it with a goal-setting GS, or an improved-town-growth GS, because only one
21:29:50  <andythenorth> universal modding framework!
21:30:02  * andythenorth should stick to horses
21:30:09  <FLHerne> Currently, most GSes are intrusive game-dominating frameworks
21:31:08  <FLHerne> But I think there'd be more niche tweak-this-one-behaviour ones if it was actually practical to use them
21:32:59  <andythenorth> it's an appealing thought
21:33:04  * andythenorth wondered about scriptable UI :P
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21:37:52  <nielsm> mii!
21:38:04  <nielsm> wrong window :P
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23:12:09  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] JMcKiern updated pull request #7710: WIP: Fix bugs in airport finite state machines
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