Log for #openttd on 4th September 2019:
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10:34:52  <planetmaker> so... does anyone know how to activate issues on ?
10:35:09  <planetmaker> both owen and me either don't find a way or are lacking rights
10:35:41  <LordAro> planetmaker: you're an owner, so you should be able to
10:35:52  <planetmaker> that's what I thought... but where?
10:36:20  <planetmaker> I spend more than half an hour searching all settings and googling github help without avail
10:36:20  <LordAro> Settings -> Features
10:36:33  <planetmaker> yes, that's what google says. And that doesn't exist
10:37:14  <LordAro> nothing? (on a different repo) i see Repo name, social preview, then the Features section
10:37:18  <LordAro> the checkbox is just below that
10:37:44  <planetmaker>
10:38:13  <LordAro> scroll down a bit?
10:38:26  <planetmaker> ... yes!
10:38:29  <planetmaker> <3
10:38:31  <LordAro> :D
10:39:03  <planetmaker> honestly... usability is poor. Doesn't look like you can scroll
10:39:32  <planetmaker> why would I scroll when the lower 2/3 are blank... oh well. Thanks a lot
10:39:46  <LordAro> it's a weirdly large text box :)
10:39:47  <LordAro> np
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12:03:33  <andythenorth> yo
12:16:31  *** Samu has joined #openttd
12:17:13  <Eddi|zuHause> ho
12:42:57  <Samu> I don't understand how SCP works during load
12:44:15  <Samu> zuu around?
12:44:34  <peter1139> SFTP is better.
12:44:56  <LordAro> @seen Zuu
12:44:56  <DorpsGek> LordAro: Zuu was last seen in #openttd 18 weeks, 4 days, 14 hours, 57 minutes, and 25 seconds ago: <Zuu> Good night andythenorth
12:45:00  <LordAro> no.
12:45:23  <LordAro> Samu: the list of names you can see on the right hand side indicates who is "around"
12:45:36  <LordAro> or at the very least, who is around even vaguely enough to possibly respond
12:47:05  <Samu> SCP has a drawback, it tries to answer every sign
12:47:25  <Samu> there are dead signs, and signs of ais that just spam
12:51:08  <andythenorth> nice highlight
12:54:13  <Samu> I saved, then I loaded
12:54:29  <andythenorth> where is cat?
12:54:41  <Samu> and it failed to detect that it was a comany value gs game
12:54:44  <andythenorth> how are we doing train liveries again? o_O
12:54:45  * andythenorth forgot
12:54:54  <andythenorth> cargo subtype?
12:56:57  <Samu> the GS isn't answering
12:57:05  <Samu> or didn't answer yet
12:57:16  <Samu> or there are so many signs it doesn't answer all
12:57:32  <Samu> i don't know for sure
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13:21:54  <supermop_work> yo
13:22:04  <supermop_work> andythenorth: liveries?
13:22:20  <andythenorth> liveries
13:22:55  <andythenorth> if I want to offer 3 different colour schemes for a wagon
13:23:00  <andythenorth> how's that done?
13:23:13  * andythenorth back to reading ISO 27001 docs
13:24:34  <supermop_work> GNER liveried GG-1?
13:24:51  <andythenorth> probably yes
13:25:15  <andythenorth> oh
13:25:24  <andythenorth> a GG-0.5
13:25:35  <supermop_work> haha
13:25:38  <supermop_work> awesome
13:27:02  <supermop_work> santa fe A4 pacific
13:27:14  <andythenorth>
13:28:50  <andythenorth> supermop_work:
13:28:50  <andythenorth>,h_187,q_70,strp/santa_fe_deltic_by_ajf3440_d5u9i1k-400t.jpg?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7ImhlaWdodCI6I
13:28:51  <andythenorth> Ijw9MjQwIiwicGF0aCI6IlwvZlwvOTU2YWY1MTktNThiNi00MzRhLWE1MWEtY2U1YmRiNDk2YjhiXC9kNXU5aTFrLWZiYTgzZDYwLWIyMTEtNDI0MS04NTUwLTNmZjYwMzdiMThmOC5wbmciLCJ3aWR0aCI6Ijw9MTAyNCJ9XV0sImF1ZCI6WyJ1cm46c2VydmljZTppbWFnZS5vcGVyYXRpb25zIl19.4vmk2O2Yd7e_2R527WJnFcMBasGOGFapg5GoruSlkik
13:28:59  <Flygon> RIP IRC clients everywhere
13:29:14  <supermop_work> am i supposed to click that?
13:29:44  <andythenorth> apparently
13:29:49  <andythenorth> I did look for a short version :P
13:30:03  <andythenorth> are there enough characters there to create viable malware? :P
13:32:21  <Eddi|zuHause> it doesn't even work as a clickable link, because it's more than one line
13:34:50  <LordAro> gj andy
13:35:42  <supermop_work> doesn't work even if both parts pasted into browser
13:35:50  <Eddi|zuHause> in a base64 number, each character encodes 6 bits of data
13:36:10  <andythenorth> wfm :P
13:36:20  * andythenorth is clearly more advanced
13:37:13  <andythenorth> oh here we go supermop_work
13:38:04  <Eddi|zuHause> <andythenorth> I did look for a short version :P <-- what happened to tinyurl?
13:38:17  <andythenorth> tinfoil?
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13:48:03  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: url-shortener services were invented exactly for situations like this, you have a massive url that you want to paste into a thing where you have limited space
13:48:47  <Eddi|zuHause> (they got particularly popular around the same time that twitter got big)
13:49:52  <andythenorth> didn't we have to all stop using them about 3 years ago?
13:51:14  <Eddi|zuHause> dunno, which is why i asked "what happened"?
13:52:01  <Eddi|zuHause> i suppose they all got swallowed by $bigcorporationthatwantsyourdata
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13:57:41  <andythenorth> they were used for phishing
13:57:46  <andythenorth> and crypto miners
13:57:54  <andythenorth> so we got taught to teach people not to use them :P
13:59:10  <LordAro> only in the same way you shouldn't click on untrusted links anyway
13:59:23  <LordAro> there's an extra level of mistrust as you can't see where it's redirecting to
13:59:45  <LordAro> if you trust the source of the link, they're no different to any other link
14:00:24  * peter1139 switches from Wayland to Xorg...
14:00:32  <peter1139> Damn this seems pretty unstable :/
14:00:50  <LordAro> Xorg seems unstable?
14:07:44  *** tokai|noir has quit IRC
14:12:06  <peter1139> Oops. I mean Wayland :-)
14:12:33  <peter1139> Gnome Shell randomly not responding.
14:12:46  <peter1139> On one PC it managed to have inverted caps-lock state, which made entering passwords interesting :p
14:13:00  <peter1139> And Alt+F2 r does not work in Wayland mode.
14:15:40  <LordAro> ha
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15:56:07  <andythenorth> so...flipping articulated vehicles? :D
15:56:18  * andythenorth wonders about trying to patch that :P
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16:18:11  <andythenorth> no takers :
16:18:13  <andythenorth> :P
16:19:26  * andythenorth finds a new thing
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17:28:30  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i don't think you'll get anywhere with that
17:28:56  <Eddi|zuHause> too many cans of worms on the way
17:29:11  <andythenorth> how hard can it be?
17:29:16  <andythenorth> it's a new trigger on cb36
17:30:00  <andythenorth> and extend the "can't flip articulated" check to be conditional on the flip flag
17:30:02  <andythenorth> :P
17:30:15  <Eddi|zuHause> it requires far-reaching design decisions, like "do you also reverse the order of articulated parts", or "do you iterate backwards through the existing parts"
17:30:42  <Eddi|zuHause> and what about dual-headed parts?
17:30:47  <andythenorth> why is OpenTTD concerned about what the newgrf does?
17:31:23  <Eddi|zuHause> this isn't really about what the newgrf does, these are very core game questions
17:31:25  <andythenorth> flipping articulated vehicles is just varaction 2
17:31:45  <andythenorth> length is changed (if needed) on cb36
17:32:08  <andythenorth> sprites are just a check of 'is flipped' in action 3 chain, checking parent vehicle
17:32:30  <andythenorth> I am making a very specific proposal about a possible implementation :P
17:32:47  <andythenorth> I am aware of deficiencies
17:33:25  <andythenorth> already, to use flipped non-articulated vehicles, the newgrf has to handle reversing the sprites
17:33:40  <Eddi|zuHause> concerning "what does the newgrf do" you have to ask two questions: "what would that allow to do" and "would a different approach allow to do that in an easier way"
17:34:37  <andythenorth> yes
17:35:06  <Eddi|zuHause> and i think, reversing the order of the articulated parts would make a few things easier
17:35:39  <Eddi|zuHause> say, you have a steam engine with added tender
17:35:59  <Eddi|zuHause> if you flip it, you don't want to flip the engine and tender individually, you also want to swap their order
17:36:33  <andythenorth> it's not that I disagree
17:36:48  <Eddi|zuHause> if openttd doesn't handle this order change, then you have more complicated newgrf code, because both the engine and the tender must have access to each others graphics
17:36:54  <Eddi|zuHause> and callback chains
17:36:56  <Eddi|zuHause> and stuff
17:37:21  <andythenorth> a better way would be nice, but I refer back to "too many cans of worms on the way"
17:37:27  <andythenorth> and it's trivial in newgrf
17:38:14  <Eddi|zuHause> ... but i would oppose such a (seemingly) "easier" implementation, because saving stuff in the wrong place causes more problems later
17:38:37  <Eddi|zuHause> do it properly, or don't do it at all.
17:38:43  <andythenorth> well :)
17:39:01  <Eddi|zuHause> everything else will collapse in a maintenance nightmare
17:39:28  <andythenorth> I am not expecting to persuade you :P
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17:40:21  <andythenorth> flip already requires explicit newgrf handling though, so extending it to articulated is a minor thing imho :)
17:41:27  <Eddi|zuHause> but it'll interfere with so many other things. say, a widely requested "drive backwards" feature
17:41:34  <andythenorth> is it more or less work than a brexit deal?
17:41:46  <Eddi|zuHause> or... doing it "properly" might facilitate that
17:42:07  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i'd say less, but there's way fewer people working on it :p
17:42:36  <andythenorth> drive backwards is weird :P
17:42:51  <andythenorth> also solved in newgrf already :D
17:42:59  * andythenorth must go home, the rain has stopped
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17:44:03  <frosch123> buster upgrade was surprisingly rough :)
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17:45:42  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/DorpsGek] TrueBrain updated pull request #3: Fix: minor style-fixes
17:45:49  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] DorpsGek pushed 1 commits to master
17:45:49  <DorpsGek_III>   - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
17:46:12  <TrueBrain> w00p!
17:46:20  <Eddi|zuHause> translator commits. that's "new" :p
17:46:51  <frosch123> yay, i think they have not been announced for 1.5 years :)
17:47:19  <frosch123> and the "-" scared me :p
17:47:35  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain opened pull request #7720: Add: [DorpsGek] also announce comments on commits
17:47:54  <TrueBrain> I rewrote DorpsGek last weekend, so this was a small step to fix ;)
17:48:31  <TrueBrain> and the last commit also "unhides" the comments that happened today
17:48:41  <TrueBrain> that was new .. comments on commits :)
17:49:31  <frosch123> aren't they supposed to be hidden?
17:49:46  <TrueBrain> hidden comments? :D
17:49:54  <TrueBrain> if they are hidden, do they really exist?
17:50:08  <TrueBrain> I mean stuff like this: "<DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] pelya left a comment on commit: Remove: libtimidity support (NOT timidity support)" :)
17:50:14  <Eddi|zuHause> schrödinger's commits?
17:50:22  <frosch123> i thought comments on commits were piped to /dev/null
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17:50:43  <TrueBrain> don't accept my PR, and that is the case :D
17:51:37  <frosch123> well, there is no method to find those "conversations", is there?
17:52:06  <TrueBrain> I have no clue how nielsm found out
17:52:11  <TrueBrain> I got an email because I wrote the commit
17:52:58  <nielsm> the comment popped up in my notifications inbox
17:53:08  <nielsm> I'm just subscribed to all comments on everything
17:53:13  <TrueBrain> ah :D
17:53:24  <TrueBrain> well, I was thinking, if DorpsGek_III tells about it, more chance people pick it up ;)
17:54:35  <TrueBrain> I like how easy it now is to wire these things through DorpsGek_III :D
17:54:40  <TrueBrain> it can even announce PR build failures :P
17:56:52  <glx> maybe not PR but nightlies failure would be nice
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17:57:36  <frosch123> can those get piped to @kick ?
17:58:34  <Eddi|zuHause> you want to auto-kick people whose PR doesn't build?
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18:06:38  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: actually, what is "drive backwards"? :)
18:07:05  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] AbeWJS commented on issue #7644: Mysteriously poor performance on macOS
18:07:14  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: switch driving direction of the train at end of line, without flipping the consist around
18:07:57  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SoothedTau commented on issue #7644: Mysteriously poor performance on macOS
18:07:57  <andythenorth> ok that was my understanding too
18:08:10  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: which is "complicated", because the front engine doubles up for collecting info for the whole consist (mass, speed, etc.)
18:08:10  <andythenorth> that's the one that can be done with convoluted newgrf tricks
18:08:32  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: it can, but at huge cost
18:08:38  <andythenorth> yes
18:08:44  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: which triggers the "can this be done easier" question
18:08:44  <andythenorth> invisible lead engine? :P
18:08:53  <andythenorth> shadow consist?
18:09:23  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: if i was to do a deep redesign, i would separate "train" and "rail vehicle" data structures
18:09:43  <andythenorth> and if you were to work with what already exists? o_O
18:09:55  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: then, rail vehicle's "PARENT" would point to the train structure, not to the front engine
18:10:30  <andythenorth> going back to my original question....
18:10:38  * andythenorth wonders what the benefits of flipping articulated consists is
18:12:13  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: if you zoom out a bit, flipping articulated consist and driving backwards involve much of the same necessary code/design changes
18:12:48  <andythenorth> the appeal of driving backwards is aesthetics?
18:13:04  <andythenorth> and the appeal of flipping articulated consists is...?
18:14:00  <frosch123> <- it's about making still screenshots with weird smoke direction
18:14:18  <andythenorth> how did you find that so quickly :P
18:14:30  <frosch123>
18:15:11  <andythenorth> I use very few articulated vehicles in Iron Horse
18:15:27  <andythenorth> because they don't support liveries
18:15:29  <andythenorth> :P
18:17:50  * andythenorth considers splitting steam engine tenders to be separate vehicles? :D
18:17:56  <andythenorth> so this can be done
18:18:40  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: that's exactly what articulated flipping should do
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18:20:24  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: and implementing it properly in the core game would require very few newgrf fuss
18:20:38  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SoothedTau commented on issue #7644: Mysteriously poor performance on macOS
18:20:49  <Eddi|zuHause> basically, none, except for the already necessary offset adjustments
18:21:13  * andythenorth wonders if it's just reversing a list :P
18:21:17  <andythenorth> probably not
18:21:46  <Eddi|zuHause> that is the essence of it, but it might cause followup problems
18:22:05  <andythenorth> ooh that mac diagnosis is good
18:22:10  <andythenorth> wonder what happens if I turn p3 off
18:26:05  <andythenorth> ooh I should screen-record this :D
18:29:27  <andythenorth> with full animation on, with sRGB I get ~35fps
18:29:50  <andythenorth> with p3 I get ~10fps
18:32:31  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth commented on issue #7644: Mysteriously poor performance on macOS
18:41:45  <nielsm> it still sounds like some kind of GPU accelerated blitting is the best way forward for that issue
18:42:17  <andythenorth> I should try the fix
18:42:28  <andythenorth> then we have evidence
18:43:03  <andythenorth> I don't think it's related to the mysterious perfomance issues I showed with news messages
18:43:08  <andythenorth> nor the inconsistent ffwd
18:43:32  <andythenorth> first I should have lunch
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20:07:43  * andythenorth looks for quartz driver
20:08:12  <andythenorth> found it
20:12:31  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth opened pull request #7721: Fix: change Quartz driver colorSpace handling to address certain macO…
20:23:53  <nielsm> so with that, time to make a 1.9.2a release just for mac? that reports its network version as 1.9.2 but fixes the video driver and utf8 handling bugs?
20:26:01  * andythenorth waiting for an Instruments run to complete
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20:35:42  <andythenorth> some more numbers
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20:47:23  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh merged pull request #7709: Fix #7692: Added industry tile to GetOrderCmdFromTile()
20:47:24  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh closed issue #7692: Industry stations could be made easier to click
20:48:31  <andythenorth> that's a nice improvement
20:48:55  <nielsm>
20:49:08  <nielsm> I guess that's sufficient to make a 1.9.3 ?
20:52:19  <andythenorth> looks pretty solid
20:56:37  <nielsm> time to sleep
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21:04:10  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc commented on pull request #7721: Fix: change Quartz driver colorSpace handling to address certain macO…
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21:07:35  <andythenorth> michi_cc: one space for each square bracket?
21:08:36  <michi_cc> Yeah, to distinguish it from normal array []s. Probably different to what everybody else does, but eh...
21:09:35  <andythenorth> is there a rule about when to trigger wrap?
21:09:42  * andythenorth is on unfamiliar ground :P
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21:10:25  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth updated pull request #7721: Fix: change Quartz driver colorSpace handling to address certain macO…
21:10:39  <michi_cc> Oh, and JFTR, could you try the speed which just the second line changed (i.e. not the CGColorSpaceCreateWithName change)?
21:11:00  <andythenorth> yes
21:12:39  <michi_cc> And the setColorSpace line should be moved after the if I guess (calling a selector on a nil value is allowed, but pointless).
21:13:05  <andythenorth> the speed improvement is the same with *only* the second line changed
21:13:10  <andythenorth> 34fps
21:13:35  <michi_cc> Do the colours look any different?
21:14:25  <andythenorth> oof that's very hard to judge
21:15:54  <andythenorth> yes they're different
21:16:48  <michi_cc> Other than that, I can't judge if changing the color space we use is good or bad. The setColorSpace should probably have always been there.
21:17:15  <andythenorth> unclear which is 'correct'
21:17:20  <andythenorth> colour is very subjective
21:17:34  * andythenorth remembers the long debate about the purple map I couldn't see
21:18:03  <andythenorth> to me, the version in 7644 looks 'wrong', it's yellow and washed out
21:18:12  <andythenorth> but I've been seeing a non-colour-spaced version for 10 years
21:20:05  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc commented on pull request #7721: Fix: change Quartz driver colorSpace handling to address certain macO…
21:23:12  <michi_cc> Well, DOS had no defined colour space, so the original graphics are not sRGB, but neither P3 or anything else. I'm probably 51%/49% on dropping the colour space change from the PR.
21:24:02  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth commented on issue #7644: Mysteriously poor performance on macOS
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21:26:44  <andythenorth> I'm favouring not changing the colour space :P
21:26:51  * andythenorth voice of conservatism
21:30:39  <milek7> i think other platforms assume sRGB?
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21:50:19  <milek7> on linux it renders like on 'master' image
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