Log for #openttd on 2nd October 2019:
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03:59:19  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Wirdal commented on issue #7592: Road vehicles don't balance between multiple loading bays
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08:54:02  <andythenorth> yo
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09:05:30  <Samu> hi
09:06:02  <peter1138> Hello
09:06:06  <peter1138> Is it lunch yet?
09:06:30  <Samu> no
09:08:45  <peter1138> Figures.
09:09:00  <peter1138> Already had breakfast today anyway so... just being greedy.
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09:12:54  <Samu>
09:15:12  <Samu> there was a recession at the end of 2091. RailwAI is approaching first place. WormAI has fallen to 3rd.
09:15:56  <peter1138> > Most viral images > Fat guy's boobs...
09:16:44  <andythenorth> ha
09:16:45  <andythenorth> 2014/09/28/16:51 <@peter1138> I should implement roadtypes just to spite you :D
09:16:56  <andythenorth> found by accident
09:17:00  <peter1138> Nice.
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09:17:08  * andythenorth thinking about snowploughs :P
09:17:29  <Eddi|zuHause> dunno what parts of the internet you people are using
09:18:06  <Samu> WormAI has a problem with recessions
09:18:34  <Samu> everytime it is appoaching first, and a recession happens, it starts a slight decline
09:18:47  <andythenorth> is there a hidden var for total town population on the map?
09:18:49  * andythenorth can't find one
09:19:05  <andythenorth> had an idea about each industry requiring x total population
09:19:06  <Samu> yes,
09:19:27  <Samu> somewhere in display town directory gui
09:19:32  <Eddi|zuHause> it's calculated for the town list window, aafair
09:19:34  <andythenorth> not newgrf, doesn't count :)
09:19:38  <andythenorth> tying industry production to population is tedious
09:19:51  <andythenorth> but tying industry construction to population might be interesting
09:20:32  <andythenorth> unrelated, I can't find pikka's snowplough :P
09:20:58  <Eddi|zuHause> well, banks check for population
09:21:41  <Eddi|zuHause> and some ECS industries check for population nearby
09:21:43  <peter1138> Samu, you can link to just the image as well, btw. < Does not have a side-bar full of semi-naked fat men.
09:22:09  <andythenorth> checking for population nearby could work, it just seems more likely to go wrong
09:22:15  <andythenorth> and need more text writing to explain it
09:22:53  <Samu>
09:22:56  <planetmaker> tying population to industry production will fail for different house newgrfs... they all have different ideas on what population density should be
09:23:16  <andythenorth> hmm
09:23:32  <andythenorth> yes
09:23:41  <andythenorth> well *not* making changes is much easier :)
09:23:56  * andythenorth trying to find any reason to even have towns on the map
09:24:03  <andythenorth> they seem to just get in the way of industries
09:24:03  <planetmaker> checking for num_houses and their town_zone might be the more portable approach
09:24:11  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, not brexiting would be way easier
09:24:24  <andythenorth> am I playing the wrong game?
09:24:34  <andythenorth> maybe I am confusing OpenTTD with F
09:25:25  <planetmaker> F is happy to break mod interfaces
09:26:14  <Eddi|zuHause> well, i guess F is also moving much faster
09:26:28  <planetmaker> and only has one... instead of like... 3 or 4
09:26:46  <Eddi|zuHause> well, if you can't change them, you need to add more :p
09:26:53  <andythenorth> hmm
09:27:11  <andythenorth> as FIRS evolves, noticeable accidental trend is removal of all the town cargos
09:27:16  <Eddi|zuHause> remember when TrueBrain wanted to add another one? :p
09:27:35  <planetmaker> honestly no: when was that and what?
09:27:46  <Eddi|zuHause> about a year ago
09:28:22  <andythenorth> about 6 months ago, and it was a compile-time API to the existing APIs afaict
09:28:58  <planetmaker> he
09:29:07  <andythenorth> then TB ran into the sadness
09:29:16  <Eddi|zuHause> or the madness?
09:29:32  <andythenorth> well the APIs are a terrible mess
09:29:35  <peter1138> Someone joked and that killed it off.
09:29:35  <planetmaker> that lies close together
09:29:38  <andythenorth> and yet the game I'm playing right now is fun
09:29:42  <andythenorth> and making newgrfs is fun
09:30:05  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: are you finishing the town layout patch, it's sooooooo much better
09:30:07  <andythenorth> also rivers :P
09:30:18  <planetmaker> well... inventing a new API would result in
09:30:27  <andythenorth> stop teasing with 50% done patches that make worthwhile changes :P
09:30:35  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: i'm sure nobody noted that before :p
09:30:43  <planetmaker> :P
09:30:51  <planetmaker> however... lunch time now :D
09:30:55  <andythenorth> oof lunch
09:31:00  * andythenorth elevenses
09:32:11  <Eddi|zuHause> hm, that link only appears about 19 times in the log of the last 10 years
09:33:08  <andythenorth> do we need a new API? :D
09:33:25  <Eddi|zuHause> it's not 11:38 yet
09:33:45  * andythenorth must get on a bike
09:33:47  <andythenorth> BIAB
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10:03:59  <Samu> trivia - destroying a UFO destroys houses if near houses?
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10:06:06  <Samu> the answer is yes
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10:58:48  <Samu>
10:59:38  <Samu> the explosion is a bit off
10:59:59  <Samu> it affects more squares than the fiery thing
11:10:25  <peter1138> Could be broken sprite offsets, seeing as it doesn't affect some of the top tiles.
11:10:31  <peter1138> Try it with the proper base set.
11:12:07  <Eddi|zuHause> so, did the bike have lunch?
11:12:28  <Samu> proper base set?
11:12:33  <Samu> it's opengfx
11:12:42  <peter1138> Samu, TTD original.
11:13:20  <Samu> i dont have that here
11:13:37  <peter1138> Well you should.
11:13:47  <andythenorth> my bike needs feeding
11:13:49  <andythenorth> battery is flat
11:13:53  <andythenorth> forgot to plug it in
11:14:06  <andythenorth> much slower :P
11:14:06  <peter1138> You still have legs.
11:14:12  <andythenorth> yes I used legs
11:14:19  <andythenorth> legs are required with or without battery
11:14:30  <andythenorth> it's just more fun going everywhere at 25mph
11:14:42  <andythenorth> oops, that would be illegal
11:14:50  <andythenorth> that doesn't actually happen of course
11:15:01  <andythenorth> funny, can ride a pushbike as fast you like
11:15:19  <andythenorth> but an assisted bike is not permitted to do more than 17mph
11:15:58  <peter1138> Yes, but the assumption is the average cyclist will be doing 10mph on the pavement anyway...
11:16:14  <Eddi|zuHause> tell that to the tour de france?
11:16:25  <peter1138> They're not exactly average.
11:16:38  <peter1138> They also take more drugs.
11:16:43  <peter1138> Sorry, medication.
11:16:50  <andythenorth> necessary medication
11:17:20  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: does that limit change if you have a moped driver license?
11:18:00  <andythenorth> it changes if you tax and insure the bike as a road vehicle
11:18:14  <Eddi|zuHause> that makes somewhat sense
11:18:24  <andythenorth> but then it can't be ridden on cycle paths, or in cycle lanes
11:23:58  <LordAro> NL seems to be quite happy with mopeds on their cycle paths
11:25:33  <Eddi|zuHause> NL has LOOOOTS of cycle paths, though :p
11:26:20  <peter1138> You'd need to get the bike type-approved. And fit number plates. And have an MOT.
11:26:49  <peter1138> So you might as well just get a moped :p
11:27:12  <peter1138> e-mopeds are a thing of course.
11:27:13  <Eddi|zuHause> apparently, in germany electric bikes don't count as motor vehicle
11:27:33  <Eddi|zuHause> ... by research of about 5 minutes on wikipedia
11:28:22  <peter1138> e-bikes don't as long as they comply with the limits (power limit and must not be self-powered)
11:28:23  <Eddi|zuHause> ... if the motor has less than 250W and is limited to 25km/h
11:32:29  <andythenorth> maybe I should just tax and insure it, and get one with a really big motor :P
11:32:35  <andythenorth> I don't ride on many cycle paths
11:33:35  <Eddi|zuHause> ... if you get an insured version, you can go 45km/h apparently
11:33:48  <Eddi|zuHause> ... which is a really dangerous speed if you want to go on actual roads
11:34:05  <Eddi|zuHause> ... because everyone else will be going 60km/h (at 50km/h speed limit)
11:34:56  <planetmaker> Samu, what type of explosion is that?
11:35:11  <planetmaker> ufo?
11:35:20  <planetmaker> or refinery?
11:35:24  <peter1138> One of the UFOs
11:35:30  <peter1138> You can see the fighter jet.
11:35:45  <planetmaker> yeah. but that flies over the whole map from East to West :)
11:35:49  <peter1138> Which is a bomber really :p
11:36:00  <planetmaker> nah, the avanger :)
11:36:18  <peter1138> Yeah but the chances of a refinery explosion at the same time as the fighter...?
11:36:25  <planetmaker> 12% :P
11:36:35  <peter1138> OH THAT'LL NEVER HAPPEN
11:36:43  <peter1138> > Happens 75% of the time
11:37:59  <Eddi|zuHause> ... ok, this article descends into legalese which makes my head hurt, i'm going to stop...
11:42:02  <peter1138> So eccles cakes... why are they so high in carolies?
11:42:28  <planetmaker> calories are the carriers of taste. So...
11:43:37  <peter1138> They're like, sugar wrapped in a crust of sugar.
11:44:11  <planetmaker> yeah... taste is carried by or attached to sugar and fat usually :)
11:44:19  <planetmaker> or both
11:45:32  <Samu> it was a large UFO, landed on some house
11:46:05  <Samu> or maybe on clear terrain, adjacent to a house
11:46:14  <Samu> graphics were overlapping
11:47:10  <peter1138> That's why I suggested some sprite offset.
11:47:20  <peter1138> And therefore testing against the proper graphics.
11:47:43  <planetmaker> s/proper/often illegal/ ;)
11:48:24  <Eddi|zuHause> since when do large ufos land on clear terrain?
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11:49:24  <Eddi|zuHause> back in my days, they only landed on tracks
11:49:38  <peter1138> I was assuming it's clear due to having been bombed :p
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11:55:49  <Samu> competing for 1st place is heating up
11:56:20  <Samu> WormAI vs LuDiAI AfterFix vs RailwAI
12:06:17  <andythenorth> mmm
12:06:23  * andythenorth builds loads of connected docks 
12:06:34  <andythenorth> as many as 4
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12:19:17  <peter1138> Oh yeah. I just had lunch.
12:19:23  <andythenorth> tuna sandwich
12:19:26  <peter1138> Salad.
12:19:31  <andythenorth> hmm
12:19:34  <andythenorth> tuna is salad
12:19:35  <peter1138> With a bit of Port Salut cheese.
12:19:47  <peter1138> And a chunk of fruit cake.
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12:38:18  <FLHerne> andythenorth: I was wondering why fishing harbours don't come with a built-in dock? They definitely look like they should be one
12:43:41  <andythenorth> because $reasons
12:44:03  <andythenorth> would you like all of them, or just that one? :)
13:12:58  <FLHerne> More reasons would be interesting :P
13:22:58  <Eddi|zuHause> my prime reason would be lack of transfer from ship to train/truck
13:23:46  <Eddi|zuHause> you only really need dock at fishing harbor if you have separate fishing grounds
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14:08:17  <FLHerne> Well, a player can always build their own dock if needed
14:15:51  <andythenorth> reasons include...
14:16:06  <andythenorth> - don't want airports at fishing harbours, ports etc
14:16:44  <andythenorth> - shared dock tiles confuses cdist
14:16:53  <andythenorth> - shared dock tiles create accidental sharing in MP
14:17:10  <andythenorth> - there is only one dock tile, no multi-dock
14:17:27  <Eddi|zuHause> that last one is invalid now?
14:17:35  <andythenorth> oh maybe
14:18:07  <andythenorth> - there was a nearly-finished yexo patch queue for new ports, that provided control over industry dock tiles
14:18:38  <andythenorth> anyway, those are the reasons
14:18:45  <andythenorth> I don't hate the idea, it just seemed to have downsides
14:25:43  <andythenorth> eh
14:25:53  <andythenorth> flat docks anyone? o_O
14:25:55  <andythenorth> build on water
14:26:40  <Eddi|zuHause> only thing you really need is a GUI for it?
14:29:58  <nielsm>
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15:33:10  <Samu> difficult to see now who's leading
15:33:48  <Samu> LuDiAI AfterFix: 9
15:34:19  <Samu> RailwAI: 12
15:34:44  <Samu> WormAI: 3
15:34:51  <Samu> so RailwAI is leading
15:37:16  <Samu> year 2110, I'm finally overtaken :(
15:44:44  <supermop_work> do three track lines ever make sense?
15:45:20  <Eddi|zuHause> usually you want to give the trains as few choices as possible
15:45:46  <supermop_work> both in game and also in real life
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15:46:18  <supermop_work> the advantage of a peak direction only express seems not that useful
15:47:32  <Eddi|zuHause> there isn't really any "peak"
15:48:58  <supermop_work> as you can't have twice the capacity in one direction without trains piling up at the end
15:50:20  <supermop_work> and if you put 0.5 capacity of the 'down' line on each 'up' line, you might as well just run it two tracks
15:56:09  <supermop_work> Eddi|zuHause: yeah ofc there is no rush hour in game, but i cant really think of any other use cases
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16:16:32  <Eddi|zuHause> well, if you have trains accelerate slow in one direction, you could double that track
16:16:38  <Eddi|zuHause> and alternate the trains between both
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16:17:32  <Eddi|zuHause> (usually that's only useful on station exits, once the trains are up to speed, you can join the two lines)
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16:36:32  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> Hello again
16:36:56  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> Is there a way to compile OpenTTD and make it use Alsa instead of the nightmare of PulseAudio?
16:37:09  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> like, completely and absolutely ignore pulseaudio
16:37:49  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> Because it's still giving me nightmares
16:39:12  <Eddi|zuHause> there is nothing about pulseaudio that is included anywhere in the game
16:39:27  <Eddi|zuHause> just disable pulseaudio
16:39:32  <Eddi|zuHause> on your system
16:40:45  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> Okay so when i use "ldd openttd" and it tells me that it uses, what does that mean?
16:41:32  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> (just to be clear I'm completely ignorant of compilers and all that, so I can't really wrap my mind around this issues I'm facing with the game crashing when I try to use audio).
16:42:25  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> (I was able to compile and run the game but the thing is still obsessed with running pulseaudio and the OS i'm using has like problems with it)
16:43:55  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> Right now I'm having execution time crashes due to pulseaudio vs alsa
16:44:05  <Eddi|zuHause> i would assume that's some secondary library
16:44:55  <Eddi|zuHause> so, like openttd links to some sound library, and that sound library links to pulse
16:45:26  <Eddi|zuHause> you can probably tell ./configure to compile without sound
16:45:30  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> So, what I found out is that if I do in a terminal:" export SDL_AUDIODRIVER; openttd "
16:45:32  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> The game runs
16:45:35  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> and has sound
16:45:49  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> but If I reboot and try to run just "openttd" the thing crashes horribly
16:46:17  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS>
16:46:20  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> And it gives me that
16:46:22  <Eddi|zuHause> well, you could put that export in your .profile
16:46:46  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> So the whole system runs in alsa?
16:46:53  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> or whatever that export does
16:47:05  <Eddi|zuHause> export just sets the variable
16:47:17  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> " export SDL_AUDIODRIVER=alsa; openttd "
16:47:22  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> ah okay
16:47:29  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> maybe I can make an .sh script just for openttd
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16:47:46  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> Is that the "best solution" or just a band-aid solution?
16:47:55  <Eddi|zuHause> if you make a script, or an alias, you can leave out the export, just "VAR=value program"
16:48:01  <Wolf01> Steam-turbine
16:48:22  <Eddi|zuHause> instead of "export VAR=value; program"
16:48:25  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> ah
16:48:35  <Eddi|zuHause> the export makes it remember it for future runs
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16:48:51  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> so line1: "SDL_AUDIODRIVER=alsa" line2: "openttd"
16:48:55  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> in the script
16:48:59  <Wolf01> I made andy quit :(
16:49:19  <Eddi|zuHause> no, all in one line
16:49:36  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> ah okay.
16:49:48  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> no ; or anything similar?
16:49:51  <Eddi|zuHause> with a space inbetween
16:49:54  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> okay
16:50:18  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> Still, it's just a band-aid solution, right?
16:50:27  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
16:50:34  <Eddi|zuHause> but i do this stuff all the time
16:50:43  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> bummer
16:50:44  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> Okay, second issue
16:50:54  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> I have no music. And I can't find any debug information about it
16:50:58  <Eddi|zuHause> like, in steam -> settings -> start options
16:51:15  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> Like, the playlist just skips songs like crazy
16:51:28  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> as if it couldn't play any song
16:51:46  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> It has something to do with midi libs?
16:51:47  <Eddi|zuHause> so, you got the songs installed, and selected the music set in the menu?
16:51:53  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> Yes
16:51:56  <Eddi|zuHause> you likely miss timidity
16:52:03  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> okay will look for it
16:52:18  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> I have fluidsynth
16:52:23  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> has something to do with that?
16:52:37  <Eddi|zuHause> you can use that, but you have to add some command line option, which i don't know
16:52:54  <Eddi|zuHause> like, -m extmidi:somestuff
16:52:55  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> okay
16:52:57  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> lets see
16:53:22  <Eddi|zuHause> (you can add that to your script)
16:53:41  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> maybe on the ./configure
16:53:52  <Eddi|zuHause> no, that should be a run time option
16:54:06  <LordAro> fluidsynth support is a compile time thing, iirc
16:54:08  <Eddi|zuHause> maybe you can set it in the .cfg
16:54:16  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> I have this on the configure:                                  enables icu components for locale specific string sorting
16:54:17  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS>   --static-icu                   try to link statically (libsicu instead of
16:54:17  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS>                                  libicu; can fail as the new
16:54:20  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> agh
16:54:21  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> sorry
16:54:34  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> --with-midi=midi               define which midi-player to use
16:54:35  <LordAro> extmidi support might have been (temporarily) removed in 1.9.x, i can't remember
16:54:46  <nielsm> extmidi is still supported
16:54:49  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS>  --with-midi-arg=arg            define which args to use for the
16:54:49  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS>                                  midi-player
16:54:49  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS>   --with-libtimidity[="pkg-config libtimidity"]
16:54:49  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS>                                  enables libtimidity support
16:54:49  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS>   --with-fluidsynth              enables fluidsynth support
16:54:49  <Eddi|zuHause> frenchiveruti_EasyOS: that looks wrong
16:54:54  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> okay
16:54:59  <nielsm> it's just not default if you have any other midi support
16:55:08  <nielsm> --with-midi is extmidi
16:55:31  <Eddi|zuHause> frenchiveruti_EasyOS: ok, you probably want --with-fluidsynth then
16:55:41  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> okay will try that and see if it blows up
16:55:46  <Eddi|zuHause> (i would assume it picks that up automatically if installed, though)
16:56:23  <nielsm> fluidsynth is the general best choice for softsynth midi on linux
16:56:32  <nielsm> (and there isn't any good choice for external/hardware synths)
16:57:03  <Eddi|zuHause> i should get a board with an ISA slot and see how my sound blaster AWE32 still works? :)
16:57:10  <nielsm> :D
16:57:24  <nielsm> it won't be useful on linux
16:58:05  <Eddi|zuHause> i once installed some soundblaster driver in win3.11 in my dosbox
16:58:29  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> hmm I am confused by the fact that when I try to do "make" again after another "make" the whole things errors out
16:59:07  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> Like, if I compile with a fresh folder of the source code, it compiles fine, but If I do one compilation and then try to make another one it doesn't like it.
16:59:15  <Eddi|zuHause> maybe you should switch to HardOS? :p
16:59:19  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> Any command to "clean up" the folder and leave it pristine?
16:59:20  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> HAHA
16:59:22  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> :(
16:59:34  <Eddi|zuHause> "make clean"?
16:59:46  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> it "works" but doesn't work at the same time
16:59:52  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> Like, doesn't clean completely
17:00:08  <Eddi|zuHause> there may be  "make distclean" or something
17:00:12  <milek7> weird, what error with incremential make?
17:00:17  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> ah yes
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17:00:51  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> ah god dammit I'll just erase everything and start again
17:00:53  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> haha
17:01:35  <Eddi|zuHause> there's probably some git invocation that deletes all files that wouldn't be there on a clean checkout
17:02:08  <milek7> make mrproper clean everything
17:02:32  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> I'll see if that makes the trick milek
17:02:54  <milek7> but it definitely should work without deleting everything each time ;P
17:03:09  <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, gtg
17:03:30  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> bye Eddi|zuHause , thanks
17:03:33  <Eddi|zuHause> maybe permissions or timestamps are messed up?
17:03:37  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> make[1]: Entering directory '/mnt/sda7/EasyOS/home/projects/OpenTTD/openttd-1.9.3/objs/extra_grf'
17:03:37  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> make[1]: *** No rule to make target '/mnt/sda7/EasyOS/home/projects/OpenTTD/openttd-1.9.3/bin/baseset/orig_dos.obg', needed by 'all'.  Stop.
17:03:37  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> make[1]: Leaving directory '/mnt/sda7/EasyOS/home/projects/OpenTTD/openttd-1.9.3/objs/extra_grf'
17:03:37  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> make: *** [Makefile:56: all] Error 1 "
17:03:44  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> that's the error if you want to know
17:03:57  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> There's no permissions Eddi|zuHause , easyos runs as root
17:04:10  <Eddi|zuHause> that sounds like a horrible idea
17:04:16  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> Ah, maybe
17:04:22  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> But I don't really care haha
17:04:56  <Eddi|zuHause> i'll really go now, or i'll have nightmares
17:05:18  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> Sure thing, good night/day to you
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17:10:27  <milek7> about disabling pulseaudio, you could probably compile sdl without it
17:10:44  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> I could but that would break firefox
17:11:01  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> Because the devs of firefox decided that dropping alsa alltogether was a good idea.
17:12:24  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> I only need that OpenTTD denies its existence.
17:13:22  <milek7> firefox depends on sdl?
17:13:26  *** andythenorth has joined #openttd
17:13:35  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> Eh...
17:13:46  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> Okay I have limits on what I know :)
17:13:49  <milek7> and there is that too:
17:15:12  <milek7> anyway, maybe pulse deserved hate 10 years ago, but since few years it usually works ;P
17:15:35  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> haha
17:15:39  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> It makes me unhappy
17:17:24  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> I think I will go with the band-aid solution and try to get fluidsynth to work on the midi
17:18:46  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> on the help line at -/configure that puts: " --with-midi=midi " what are the possible options for "midi"?
17:20:04  <nielsm> the name of a program that will take the name of a midi file as a commandline parameter and play it
17:24:29  * andythenorth plays a game with a perfect map
17:24:36  <andythenorth> maybe regions aren't needed :P
17:24:47  <andythenorth> I generated about 30 maps to get this one :)
17:25:15  <andythenorth> unrelated, goose industry?
17:31:43  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> ok, fluidsynth in you I trust
17:36:27  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> It failed to me :(
17:45:50  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] DorpsGek pushed 1 commits to master
17:45:50  <DorpsGek_III>   - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
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17:51:44  <FLHerne> Idea: script that inspects the generated map after each stage (terrain, towns, industries, [?]) and accepts/rejects it
17:51:54  <FLHerne> If rejected, rollback to the previous step and try again
17:52:45  <Eddi|zuHause> sounds like custom map generators on steroids
17:52:50  <FLHerne> No, for town/industry placement it would be easier to just have a script to do it...
17:54:10  <nielsm> well, how about just adding a map preparation phase to GS then, where it can execute as many ticks as it wants before players get control?
17:54:28  <nielsm> and allow it to snapshot the map during that to roll back
17:54:45  <nielsm> then the GS will be creating the towns and industries itself
17:55:21  <Eddi|zuHause> nielsm: i think the idea was to not go through the hassle of creating the towns and industries yourself, just check whether it looks good
17:55:34  <nielsm> Eddi|zuHause yes I get that
17:55:39  <Eddi|zuHause> (not sure how that latter part would be easier)
17:55:44  <nielsm> but I reject that idea :)
17:55:51  <FLHerne> Eddi|zuHause: That was the idea, and then I realised it was stupid :P
17:56:07  <FLHerne> Except maybe for terrain
17:56:28  <nielsm> instead of re-rolling a dice until you get a 6, just turn the dice to show 6 yourself :P
17:56:35  <Eddi|zuHause> a terrain preview on the main menu might be useful
17:56:37  <FLHerne> Because terrain-gen in a script would be slow, and the current generator is capable of making nice landscapes
17:56:58  <nielsm> yes the terrain get should not be up to GS, that would be inefficient
17:57:22  <Eddi|zuHause> if you want custom terrain, just make a heightmap
17:57:45  <FLHerne> Side note: I think some script methods to examine larger areas of terrain might be useful for other things?
17:58:01  <andythenorth> maybe
17:58:03  <FLHerne> e.g. AI pathfinders are very slow currently
17:58:23  <milek7> factorio-like map preview?
17:58:24  <FLHerne> (and tend to limit the search space to compensate, and produce crap paths)
17:58:58  <nielsm> I'm trying to think of what large-scale map inspection would look like and not sure I can think of anything really great
17:59:12  <Eddi|zuHause> milek7: i don't think factorio invented map previews
17:59:46  <andythenorth> what problem are we solving again?
17:59:48  <andythenorth> )
17:59:50  <nielsm> like pick a center and radius and get some statistics on that? lowest and highest point, number of water tiles, number of flat tiles, number of slope tiles?
18:03:22  <Eddi|zuHause> i once tried to make a gamescript that runs a triangulation on the map to find out which cities neighbour each other, but on large maps, that wasn't done by the time the game was handed off to the user
18:03:44  *** frosch123 has joined #openttd
18:03:50  <andythenorth> quak
18:03:56  <frosch123> moo
18:04:00  <Eddi|zuHause> (mainly because i placed signs for debugging purposes, and placing a sign ends your tick)
18:04:36  <Eddi|zuHause> (that would potentially become a problem if you want to place objects as border fences or something)
18:05:04  <Eddi|zuHause> (or road connections)
18:05:15  <FLHerne> nielsm: Yes, that's about what I was thinking
18:06:15  <FLHerne> nielsm: Basically, anything that would help pick a high-level route ("there's a dip in the hills around here")
18:07:28  <FLHerne> Current AI pathfinding seems to poke around tile-by-tile over a small area, until saying "sod it" and building straight over a mountain
18:07:40  <Eddi|zuHause> you probably want some tree structure for that kind of analysis
18:08:05  <nielsm> like a quadtree?
18:08:09  <FLHerne> Or tries to build routes that make no sense, because the industries are close in principle but on widely-separated islands
18:08:52  <FLHerne> So it either (a) builds a hugely expensive bridge, or (b) invests a huge amount of time determining that it /needs/ one and then gives up
18:09:02  <Eddi|zuHause> the exact details of your data structure probably depends on the specific problem you're trying to solve
18:10:00  <FLHerne> Eddi|zuHause: Right
18:10:17  <Eddi|zuHause> things to consider: a) building up that structure probably takes some time, so your AI might still spend ages inactive, and b) other players terraforming might make your data invalid
18:10:58  <nielsm> a full map quadtree constantly maintained by all terrain operations!
18:11:05  <FLHerne> Eddi|zuHause: My thought was that it would be better to have some routines (and their underlying datastructures) implemented in OTTD C++ as part of the API
18:11:25  <nielsm> could be combined with a complete terrain rewrite to store the terrain in blocks instead of one contiguous array
18:11:56  <Eddi|zuHause> concerning b) you might want to have a data structure that allows easy recovery from local changes. like, maybe a heap?
18:11:56  <FLHerne> To largely mitigate your (a) and (b), and any such datastructure could potentially be reused for other game calculations
18:12:30  <FLHerne> e.g. for quickly ruling-out impossible paths for ships
18:12:51  <Eddi|zuHause> we don't really have that :p
18:16:41  <Wolf01> andythenorth: steam-turbine locomotive with huge running cost at low speed?
18:16:54  <andythenorth> o_O
18:17:25  <Wolf01> But at high speed really low running cost
18:17:55  <andythenorth> o_O
18:19:40  <Wolf01> While economical at speed, the locomotive was highly uneconomical at lower speed. The turbine used less steam than conventional locomotives above 30 mph (48 km/h), but below that the locomotive used too much steam and fuel.
18:19:56  <Wolf01> (this from the S2)
18:21:44  <Eddi|zuHause> "uneconomical" doesn't mean the cost actually increased at low speed
18:24:11  <Wolf01> I read that at high speed the costs are comparable to diesel ones
18:24:41  <Wolf01> *were, since there are no more of them
18:26:14  <andythenorth> so I have added some industrial trams to Road Hog using NRT
18:26:25  <andythenorth> but somehow they're less appealing than the HEQS ones
18:26:28  <andythenorth> not sure why yet
18:28:34  <andythenorth> maybe it's the railtype menu?
18:29:36  <andythenorth> or that they all look the same?
18:29:50  <andythenorth> or that the names are really really long?
18:29:55  <andythenorth> or that they're slow?
18:29:56  <andythenorth> :P
18:30:25  <Eddi|zuHause> all of those?
18:30:45  <andythenorth> quite possibly
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18:34:30  <andythenorth> composable RVs? o_O
18:34:50  <supermop_work> andythenorth: ive had the same problem with industrial trams
18:35:02  <supermop_work> names and menu get way too long
18:36:46  <supermop_work> composing like trains would solve, but then its like do trams want to be different from trains?
18:38:33  <andythenorth> is problem eh?
18:38:40  <andythenorth> so HEQS trams work though?
18:38:49  <andythenorth> and Road Hog pre-NRT trams worked great
18:39:04  <andythenorth> grf design must evolve!
18:39:06  <andythenorth> send memo!
18:40:00  <supermop_work> heqs is manageble
18:41:18  <supermop_work> road hog is ok-ish but you don't have quite as many permutations?
18:42:15  <supermop_work> heqs collapsed rake length and wagon type into refits
18:42:51  <andythenorth> yes
18:42:59  <andythenorth> and Hog the trams all look very different
18:43:08  <andythenorth> also, in game they are all 16/8
18:43:19  <andythenorth> so they fill road stops really well without blocking
18:45:13  <supermop_work> tbh i used to care more about efficient road stop fitting but i've come to be ambivalent
18:46:28  <supermop_work> in mopRVs idk if ended up even trying
18:49:22  <supermop_work> 16/8 or longer is useful if put a stop in front of a tram depot as an escapement for lazy timetabling
18:51:11  <supermop_work> 8/8 or less is useful as you can have two routes through a stop without worrying if the timetables coincide at the shared stop
18:53:53  <supermop_work> for mop rv i ended up just only doing open wagons and box cars
18:53:59  <supermop_work> no tankers
18:55:56  <andythenorth> currently I'm only building feldbahn because I have to for testing :P
18:56:07  <andythenorth> otherwise I'd use the town freight trams, they're faster :P
18:57:18  <andythenorth> and the town freight trams look cool
18:57:25  <andythenorth> the feldbahn are just small trains
19:01:12  <Samu> which plane profits more?
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19:01:18  <Samu> 75 pass, 10 mail
19:01:22  <Samu> 65 pass, 18 mail
19:03:51  <andythenorth> potato / potato?
19:04:17  <Samu> ya
19:06:00  <Samu> there should be a profit calculator somewhere
19:07:45  <Samu> eh... almost
19:08:46  <_dp_> by almost you mean to planes?
19:09:31  <_dp_> I felt to point to bother with charts for planes :p
19:09:36  <_dp_> A21 is the best, end of story :p
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19:10:32  <Samu> AirTaxi A34-1000
19:10:40  <Samu> Yate Z-Shuttle
19:10:49  <Samu> Kelling K1
19:12:00  <nielsm> mail should be paying better than passengers, I think?
19:12:08  <nielsm> for same amount transported over same distance in same time
19:12:55  <nielsm> but mail also weighs 4x more per unit than passengers
19:13:08  <Samu> 3 different AIs, 3 different choices
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19:13:46  *** ChanServ sets mode: +v glx
19:13:57  <Samu> oh, the other is 85 pass, 10 mail
19:14:09  <Samu> but it has low reliability
19:15:06  <_dp_> Darvin 300 and dinger 200 are worth considering if your airports are clogging, others just suck
19:16:03  <Samu> dinger 200 is a large plane, this choice is only small planes
19:16:16  <_dp_> mail is technically more profitable I guess but there is much less mail and if you already build an airport you may transport passengers as well
19:17:03  <Samu> there's only these 3 planes available past 2051
19:17:15  <Samu> small*
19:17:57  <Samu> my AI went with the most reliable, lower running cost 75/10
19:18:24  <_dp_> for small ones lb-9
19:18:26  <Samu> NoNoCAB went 65/18
19:18:53  <_dp_> but it's prety pointless to use small unless they're not available
19:19:06  <_dp_> which can only happen on citymania as it's not a vanilla setting
19:19:44  <_dp_> *unless big ones are not available
19:20:10  <Samu> big ones are available, but in AI maps, it's rare to have space for large airports
19:20:45  <Samu> roads everywhere, hills, houses, they tend to build commuters often
19:20:49  <_dp_> Samu, build more small ones
19:21:29  <_dp_> crashes don't matter much, you can just advertise after it
19:22:13  <nielsm> say,.. isn't this wrong?
19:22:25  <nielsm> it doesn't match the description in the comment, as far as I can tell
19:22:34  <frosch123> hmm, i guess it should not have stated with simutrans by looking into the settings gui.... why can you select the savegame version?
19:23:39  <nielsm>
19:23:49  <nielsm> previous version looks much more like the described algorithm
19:24:20  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> Hey people who's smarter than me, do libraries (such as libtimidity) have dependencies?
19:24:38  <nielsm> frenchiveruti_EasyOS: yes, but usually they're taken care of automatically by pkgconfig
19:24:43  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> okay
19:24:57  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> Is there a way to "check" the dependencies of a library?
19:25:31  <nielsm> you'd get loader/linker errors if they aren't satisfied
19:25:41  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> Okay, great then nielsm
19:25:42  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> thanks
19:25:53  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> Back to bashing my head against the keyboard :)
19:26:15  <nielsm> usually something like "symbol not found __blabla_xxx"
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19:27:37  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> I see
19:27:48  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> Okay I made what I needed and it didn't blow up so far :D
19:28:19  <nielsm> okay after some more thinking about it: no, the cargo payment algorithm is not wrong :)
19:28:20  <_dp_> nielsm, seems fine
19:28:24  <_dp_> nielsm, const int days_over_days2 = max(days_over_days1 - days2, 0);
19:28:37  <nielsm> I got things flipped around in my head :)
19:28:37  <_dp_> also iirc days2 add to days1
19:29:49  <nielsm> yeah it's a combination of three linear functions with split points at days1 and days1+days2
19:30:43  <nielsm> well, four, since it bottoms out at a minimum value
19:31:34  <frosch123> andythenorth: simutrans has powerlines, even tunnels for powerlines
19:31:57  <andythenorth> :o
19:32:17  <andythenorth> can we change the cargo payment algorithm? :P
19:33:28  * andythenorth wants to give some vehicles a bonus
19:34:06  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> make planes pay double, they are nerfed
19:34:07  <_dp_> andythenorth, set slower aging?
19:34:20  * frenchiveruti_EasyOS was being sarcastic
19:34:33  <Samu> counting number of 1st places in the last 24 quarters
19:34:40  <andythenorth> _dp_: but I don't want to play huge maps
19:34:47  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> hmm "was being" is awful grammar, right?
19:34:47  <andythenorth> bit limiting imho
19:34:53  <nielsm> andythenorth actually yes, you can make a cb on a cargotype
19:35:04  <nielsm> then the cargo payment algorithm is completely overridden
19:35:07  <andythenorth> yes, can't inspect the vehicle though
19:35:09  <Samu> LuDiAI AfterFix: 15
19:35:10  <nielsm> but of course you can't know what vehicle was used
19:35:25  <nielsm> vehicles can only affect the rate at which days_in_transit increases
19:35:46  <nielsm> but, if you control both the vehicles and the cargo, then...!!
19:35:49  <nielsm> (???)
19:36:01  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> This is so sad, I can't make the damn music work, even with timidity. :/
19:36:08  <andythenorth> strikes me that cur_vehicle_multiplier * cs-> current_payment would do it :P
19:36:16  <Samu> RailwAI: 6
19:36:49  <glx> frenchiveruti_EasyOS: does timidity works by itself ?
19:36:54  <Samu> WormAI: 3
19:37:21  <andythenorth> my suggestion is a single line change, and a trivial cb result in newgrf
19:37:28  <andythenorth> no breaking savegames
19:37:30  <Samu> or RailwAI: 5 , WormAI: 4 - they tie in a quarter in first place
19:37:33  <andythenorth> multiplier defaults to 1
19:37:59  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> glx, I am not sure how to check that, but when I run "timidity" on a terminal it doesn't throw an error
19:38:11  <_dp_> andythenorth, adds a ui nonsense thogh adding "cheating factor" to each vehicle :p
19:38:29  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> I even compiled (successfully, oddly enough) libtimidity, and still the game won't play the music for me.
19:38:34  <glx> you should try to play midi directly from the terminal
19:38:36  <andythenorth> [shrug] :P
19:38:47  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> aight
19:38:58  <Samu> do you really want music to play? :o
19:39:01  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> testing that out right now
19:39:03  <andythenorth> if I make a vehicle with 9999 capacity in 8/8, is that cheating :P
19:39:11  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> I want to make it work Samu :)
19:39:26  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> and c'mon, funk town <3
19:40:00  <nielsm> funk central?
19:40:16  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> haha
19:40:18  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> Yes
19:40:29  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> My brain typed town because I was reading about towns
19:40:41  <nielsm> funk town, small central
19:40:54  <Samu> I'm listening to Rhys Fulber / Bill Leeb other projects
19:41:03  <Samu> so far I'm disappointed
19:41:34  <nielsm> I'm not tired of the original TT music after 25 years
19:41:35  <Samu> Delerium is so much different
19:41:57  <Samu> can't believe it's the same guys that make both projects
19:42:10  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> Okay. This OS is the problem, there's no doubt about that.
19:42:20  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> GLib:ERROR:../../../glib/ghash.c:377:g_hash_table_lookup_node: assertion failed: (!g_atomic_ref_count_compare (&hash_table->ref_count, 0))
19:42:23  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> Same error as the game.
19:42:28  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> With the sound issue.
19:42:38  <Samu> install windows
19:42:43  * frenchiveruti_EasyOS flips his os
19:42:45  <nielsm> if you run timidity by itself?
19:43:05  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> yes nielsm if I do timidity <midi>.mid it throws that error
19:43:09  <_dp_> I just got a crazy idea of having vehicles that can change cargo type
19:43:15  <_dp_> basically moving industries
19:43:15  <nielsm> check if timidity's executable has a way to select audio output (i.e. switch it to alsa direct)
19:43:21  <_dp_> don't even ask what for xD
19:43:21  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> ok
19:43:29  <andythenorth> o_O
19:43:30  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> _dp_, isn't that already a thing?
19:43:32  <andythenorth> what for?
19:43:40  <andythenorth> moving castle mod?
19:43:44  <glx> IIRC there's a command line switch for that
19:43:56  <_dp_> zombie apocalypse... everything has to be done on trains... coz logic :p
19:46:08  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> glx, yes, timidity -Os (alsa output)
19:46:11  <Samu> tried to listen to Synaesthesia - sounds similar to the old Delerium
19:46:25  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> Even thought, the software is laughing at my face at this point hahaha
19:46:42  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> It tells me it can't find a cfg file called "fluidr3_gm.cfg"
19:46:49  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> that should be in the same folder as timidity
19:46:54  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> maybe I'm missing something from the repo
19:46:55  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> btb
19:46:57  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> brb*
19:47:24  <glx> the name of your OS is misleading ;)
19:47:33  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> hahaha
19:47:33  <nielsm> yeah :)
19:47:42  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> I blame Barry Kauler
19:48:03  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> I'm just a regular joe who likes to break stuff and learn from it.
19:50:55  <Samu> Road ais spam roads
19:51:01  <Samu> ship ais spam buoys
19:52:18  <Samu> and road ais can't build bridges over buoys
19:59:40  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> IT FUCKING WORKS
19:59:44  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> love y'all
20:00:34  <Samu> cg
20:02:21  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> Now I realize that in order for the game to work on any new installment of this OS, I would have to ship it with midity, fluid-soundfont, and a shit ton of others hahaha
20:02:26  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> oh well
20:02:52  <glx> timidity should be part of the OS
20:02:54  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> There's no reward without effort, right?
20:03:06  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> It is not, as you said, misleading name :)
20:03:18  <glx> same for soundfont
20:03:27  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> I'm lucky it uses debian repos
20:04:11  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> But oh well, it's just 240MB of ram when Idle
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20:05:12  <glx> oh doing IRC as root, no a very good idea
20:06:27  *** frenchiveruti_EasyOS has joined #openttd
20:06:31  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> correction
20:06:38  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> 130MB of RAM on Idle
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20:13:49  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> Ok, thanks guys I won't bother for a while
20:13:51  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> (for a while)
20:17:33  <Samu> tubular road bridges, 611 km/h
20:17:45  <Samu> but there's no 611 km/h road vehicles
20:19:17  <Samu> with the "realistic" acceleration model it should be funny to see
20:22:58  <Samu> imagine Taxis
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20:23:16  <Samu> max 3 passengers
20:23:36  <Samu> but going at ultra speeds like 611 km/h
20:27:44  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> The Hover-Bus NewGRF?
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20:44:47  <andythenorth> so flat docks then peter1138? :D
20:49:06  <andythenorth> nielsm: in the fps meter, is cargodist / link graph all under 'cargo handling'?
20:49:48  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> So, a static build is the one that only uses the libraries inside the executable?
20:49:52  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> Or something like that?
20:50:00  <nielsm> no, link graph calculation generally doesn't get included
20:50:03  <nielsm> unless it goes over time
20:50:10  <nielsm> since it runs on a separate thread
20:50:37  <andythenorth> thanks
20:50:44  * andythenorth curious about mac performance
20:50:56  <andythenorth> I have a game running at 33fps for some reason, with full animation on
20:51:28  <andythenorth> but other times I get 20fps
20:51:38  <andythenorth> mystery is mystifying :)
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21:14:36  <Samu> my AI can't fight back at long last
21:14:57  <Samu> being beaten more often than I'd like
21:15:39  <Samu> WormAI and RailwAI are fighting for 1st in profits
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21:16:07  <Samu> LuDiAI AfterFix can't seem to make a comeback
21:16:28  <Samu> it can't create more vehicles, while the others can
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21:18:22  <Samu>
21:19:00  <Samu> I'm blue
21:19:05  <Samu> WormAI is orange
21:19:13  <Samu> RailwAI is green
21:19:41  <Samu> NoNoCAB can still make more vehicles, in theory it should be able to surpass blue
21:20:11  <Samu> but has been in 4th place for a long time already
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21:25:21  <Samu> NoNoCAB is red
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21:38:49  <peter1138> Binge eating time!
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