Log for #openttd on 17th October 2019:
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01:30:55  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/website] Eddi-z approved pull request #102: Add: 2 screenshots for 1.9
01:31:51  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/website] Eddi-z commented on pull request #102: Add: 2 screenshots for 1.9
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01:47:12  <Eddi|zuHause> it's probably easier to rename the  PR to the correct month :p
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06:35:37  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] telk5093 commented on issue #7773: Right-click Skip to Skip-backwards
06:51:36  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Mysteron347 commented on issue #7774: Notify button
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06:56:50  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Mysteron347 commented on issue #7773: Right-click Skip to Skip-backwards
06:59:06  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] telk5093 commented on issue #7773: Right-click Skip to Skip-backwards
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08:38:29  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Mysteron347 opened issue #7775: Omit button
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10:04:21  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Mysteron347 opened issue #7776: Go To Depot default
10:05:46  <LordAro> should probably tell him we're not huge fans of suggestions on the bug tracker...
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10:12:41  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] JGRennison commented on issue #7773: Right-click Skip to Skip-backwards
10:14:30  <LordAro> "worn out three mouses this week already!"
10:14:37  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] JGRennison commented on issue #7776: Go To Depot default
10:16:37  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on issue #7773: Right-click Skip to Skip-backwards
10:16:37  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro closed issue #7773: Right-click Skip to Skip-backwards
10:18:34  <peter1138> If you have a category for suggestions you can easily ignore them :p
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10:26:32  <LordAro> peter1138: but andythenorth will come along and close them anyway
10:28:40  <peter1138> :-)
10:32:30  <andythenorth> too true
10:32:43  <andythenorth> did anyone fix the October dev blog post yet?
10:33:51  <andythenorth>
11:42:59  <LordAro> did you?
11:43:08  * LordAro hasn't even looked at it yet
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12:31:39  <planetmaker> many comments by Xaroth it seems
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13:47:41  <andythenorth> yo
13:51:45  <nielsm> yoyoyoyo
13:53:30  <peter1138> Is it lunch?
13:53:35  <peter1138> I hope not cos I already ate mine.
13:53:56  <andythenorth> same
14:03:19  <peter1138> Maybe it's fifteenses?
14:03:35  <peter1138> I wonder if there's any stale old cakes left from last Friday.
14:04:00  <andythenorth> or oranges
14:04:06  <andythenorth> oranges are always valid
14:04:23  <peter1138> I have a satsuma, so yeah.
14:04:42  <andythenorth> citrus is nearly always valid
14:04:50  <peter1138> Nearly.
14:04:51  <andythenorth> although easting solitary limes is challenging
14:04:56  <andythenorth> eating *
14:05:18  <peter1138> Grapefruits tend to be quite big and so have quite a lot of sugar content.
14:06:02  <andythenorth> didn't consider grapefruit
14:06:04  <andythenorth> oops
14:06:20  <andythenorth> how do I get satsumas after brexit?
14:06:24  <andythenorth> they all come from Spain
14:08:59  <peter1138> You'll still get them from Spain.
14:09:29  <peter1138> They might end up costing more though.
14:09:43  <andythenorth> that's disappointingly undramatic
14:09:48  <Eddi|zuHause> is brexit still happening?
14:09:58  <andythenorth> emoji
14:10:19  <andythenorth> someone fixed that dev blog post?
14:10:22  <andythenorth> I can't be bothered :P
14:10:29  <andythenorth> the review notes are longer than the post
14:10:37  <andythenorth> they're probably accurate, but eh
14:10:58  <Eddi|zuHause> that's a good thing, right?
14:11:10  <Eddi|zuHause> means people actually care :p
14:11:12  <andythenorth> dunno, we apparently want more posts
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14:49:14  <Xaroth> andythenorth: yeah, I looked at your oct post :)
14:49:47  <andythenorth> can we just edit directly in PRs? :P
14:50:01  <Xaroth> I can't :P
14:51:32  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: for the website, that's how we usually did it. there's an edit button on github
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14:58:12  <andythenorth> oh so if we approve & merge, anyone can edit directly in the openttd repo?
14:58:15  <andythenorth> would be better
14:58:40  <andythenorth> I can't merge website stuff, as a CMD, it's quite laborious eh
14:58:43  <andythenorth> CMS *
15:01:54  <LordAro> andythenorth: i believe the general thought was that anyone who wants edit access can get edit access
15:01:58  <LordAro> but it does have to be manually added
15:02:40  <andythenorth> I can approve, but not merge afaict
15:02:58  <andythenorth> I am totally unclear who can merge, and I don't like bothering people to ask
15:03:09  <andythenorth> so it's quite a disincentive to actually doing anything
15:03:30  <LordAro> feel free to bother me about it
15:04:43  <andythenorth> ok
15:04:56  <andythenorth> can you merge that October dev post, so others can edit in place?
15:05:09  <andythenorth> round trip via my fork is daft, in hindsight
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15:10:09  <Eddi|zuHause2> andythenorth: i think there are more steps involved between merging and actually publishing, so it makes sense that that kind of work is restricted to fewer people
15:11:42  <andythenorth> afaik, it's just cutting a tag, and waiting to see if the magic magicked
15:14:16  <andythenorth> I'll see what Truebrain thinks next time he shows
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15:24:15  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/website] LordAro pushed 1 commits to master
15:24:15  <DorpsGek_III>   - Add: 2 screenshots for 1.9 (by andythenorth)
15:24:19  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/website] LordAro merged pull request #102: Add: 2 screenshots for 1.9
15:24:29  <andythenorth> ta
15:24:53  <andythenorth> there are some great screenshots on reddit, if anyone wanted to ask the authors
15:25:01  <andythenorth> or I could crack and get a reddit account :P
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15:27:09  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/website] LordAro opened pull request #104: Change: Don't push push notifications to IRC
15:27:52  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/website] LordAro commented on pull request #94: Monthly dev post for August 2019
15:27:52  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/website] LordAro closed pull request #94: Monthly dev post for August 2019
15:28:10  *** Eddi|zuHause2 is now known as Eddi|zuHause
15:28:18  <LordAro> oh i see
15:28:34  <LordAro> normally the monthly-dev-post branch is open to all, but andythenorth's PR is obviously on his fork, so...
15:28:45  <andythenorth> yeah I thought I was doing it right, but I was wrong
15:28:50  <LordAro> it was close
15:29:10  <andythenorth> my local fork has jekyll running, so it made it easy to test
15:30:21  <Eddi|zuHause> sometimes right is wrong
15:38:05  <LordAro> sometimes wrong is right
15:49:31  <Eddi|zuHause> sometimes wrong is wrong
15:49:47  <Eddi|zuHause> but almost never is right actually right
15:50:50  <peter1138> Sometimes it's nearly home time.
15:50:54  <andythenorth> spoken like a UI designer Eddi|zuHause :P
15:51:02  <andythenorth> nothing is ever right, it's just progressively less wrong
15:51:16  <andythenorth> UI tends to this horrible mediocrity of 'least worst'
15:51:20  <Eddi|zuHause> and sometimes it's fractally wrong
15:51:26  <Eddi|zuHause> it's wrong all the way down
15:51:30  <andythenorth> peter1138: home time!
15:51:41  <peter1138> 9 minutes. Should I have a quick "pick me up" before I go?
15:52:11  <andythenorth> is it brandy?
15:54:49  <andythenorth> do I play OpenTTD wrong? :P
15:54:56  <andythenorth> I don't build nice cities like this
15:54:57  <Eddi|zuHause> yes.
15:55:29  <peter1138> Nah, I don't have brandy laying about the office.
15:55:35  <peter1138> Biscoff biscuit.
15:57:29  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Mysteron347 opened issue #7777: Conditional orders
15:57:38  <andythenorth> this one should be included
16:16:00  <Eddi|zuHause> why do i still do this?
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16:19:45  <Eddi|zuHause2> also, why does my internet disappear the moment i go online? :p
16:20:51  <andythenorth> heisen-something
16:21:12  <Eddi|zuHause2> and OBS doesn't seem to want to stop the stream
16:22:36  <Eddi|zuHause2> should be running again now
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16:24:40  <nielsm> that's a boring ticket #7777
16:25:07  <Eddi|zuHause2> what a waste of a schnapszahl
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16:26:11  <andythenorth> why are conditional orders?
16:26:17  * andythenorth wonders about a patchpack
16:26:52  <Eddi|zuHause> conditional orders are a feature solely to confuse cargodist
16:30:32  <andythenorth> what problem are they solving?
16:30:55  * andythenorth declares an empathy problem for some features :P
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17:37:55  <andythenorth> so which is wrong?
17:37:57  <andythenorth>
17:38:04  <andythenorth>
17:38:56  <andythenorth>
17:39:13  <andythenorth>
17:39:15  <nielsm> the readme is more correct and less precise
17:39:20  <andythenorth>
17:41:12  * andythenorth lolz at running OpenTTD on old macs
17:41:44  <andythenorth> the minimum spec given for Mac is the first Mac I owned
17:42:33  <frosch123> all info is correct for *some* version of ottd :)
17:43:35  * andythenorth fixes a few wiki pages
17:44:11  <nielsm> I'd say that windows earlier than XP are definitely no longer supported as of 1.9
17:44:33  <nielsm> and XP is not officially supported either
17:45:10  <nielsm> (XP is in the "if it works it's unintentional" category)
17:45:31  <nielsm> macos, I have no idea about :D
17:45:37  <nielsm> 10.8 or something?
17:45:50  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] DorpsGek pushed 1 commits to master
17:45:50  <DorpsGek_III>   - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
17:48:27  <andythenorth> n-2
17:48:34  <andythenorth> same as Apple
17:49:51  <andythenorth> I would like to burn the About page on the website with fire
17:50:40  <frosch123> it has been copy&pasted into dozen of game reviews
17:51:05  <frosch123> if you find that list in a review, you can directly conclude on the quality of the text
17:54:19  <frosch123> maybe all headers on the homepage should redirect to a google search about it
17:54:32  <frosch123> "about" -> lgtfy "what is openttd about"
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17:54:55  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/website] andythenorth opened pull request #105: Drop supported operating systems list from 'About'
17:56:09  <glx> andythenorth: you included the screenshots
17:56:19  <andythenorth> oh FFS :)
17:56:20  <andythenorth> I will fix
17:56:24  <glx> rebase and force push
17:56:29  <andythenorth> yes
17:56:42  <andythenorth> I forget that I have to drop commits from a branch
17:56:49  <andythenorth> so workflow
17:57:14  <glx> no you don't have to, you just need to branch from the right place :)
17:57:29  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/website] andythenorth updated pull request #105: Drop supported operating systems list from 'About'
17:57:39  <andythenorth> this is so inverse to the workflow we have at work :|
17:57:46  <glx> if you branch from a branch they will have the same base
17:57:55  <andythenorth> maintaining two different habits in one tool is brainache
17:58:11  <andythenorth> anyway, fixed
17:59:40  <glx> for my action testing I just branched from master to create the first version, then branched from the branch to clone and modify and get a second version
18:01:01  <andythenorth> I am just going to make feature branches only for website
18:01:11  <andythenorth> the problem comes when my master diverges from upstream
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18:17:01  <andythenorth> TB thought the should be restructured to move the developer stuff into docs/
18:17:04  * andythenorth looks at that
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18:17:40  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm not fond of the idea to hide information in so many layers
18:18:03  <andythenorth> I wondered
18:18:04  <andythenorth>
18:18:13  <frosch123> there also could be a
18:18:15  <andythenorth> my worry is that it's not maintainted
18:18:28  <andythenorth> there's
18:18:31  <frosch123> and some script to parse a known commit history to extract all the patchers
18:19:35  <nielsm> and perhaps some more
18:19:40  <andythenorth>
18:21:46  <andythenorth> couple of these look aged?
18:23:07  <andythenorth> maybe just the OS/2 one :D
18:23:52  <andythenorth> when does changelog in master get backported?
18:24:03  <andythenorth> 1.9.1 and friends are missing :)
18:24:14  <nielsm> when someone does it
18:24:17  <frosch123> before 1.10
18:24:25  <nielsm> there is an open PR to forward port the changelog
18:24:31  <frosch123> i think it's even in the 1.10-beta pr
18:24:47  <nielsm> it is
18:24:52  <andythenorth> should all .txt files be .md, or is that pointless change?
18:24:58  * andythenorth not looking for work, just a tidy house
18:25:09  <nielsm> nah
18:27:12  <andythenorth> eh README is pretty good, no?  Just the compiling section needs split out?
18:27:17  <andythenorth> rest seems fine, for now
18:27:53  <andythenorth> the team list is aging
18:34:53  <LordAro> it probably does need a bit of an update
18:46:09  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth opened pull request #7778: Docs: split compiling instructions from README, as they aren't requir…
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18:50:34  <glx> hmm I fear a conflict in cmake branch
18:51:19  <peter1138> Merge it anyway
18:51:35  <glx> better wait for 1.10 branching I think
18:54:08  <andythenorth> I want to write words for legacy support somewhere
18:54:18  <andythenorth> I think last time we talked it was something like:
18:54:20  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on pull request #7778: Docs: split compiling instructions from README, as they aren't requir…
18:55:02  <andythenorth> "we'll keep support going on old platforms as long as someone is interested, except if it means the project can't move forward with language and compiler features"
18:55:22  <andythenorth> TL;DR "We'll do our best, except where it becomes impractical"
18:55:32  <LordAro> sounds good
18:55:43  <andythenorth> and Apple users get n-2
18:55:52  <andythenorth> and should accept that they bought an Apple ideology
18:56:02  <LordAro> "anything that's still supported by its vendor"
18:56:14  <LordAro> "unless it's RHEL"
18:56:46  <glx> andythenorth: the commit prefix should be Doc: not Docs:
18:56:58  <andythenorth> oops
18:57:11  * andythenorth wonders if CONTRIBUTING links to README for compiling also
18:57:12  <andythenorth> hmm
18:57:37  <glx> (and I hate having to navigate really deep just to see the output of commit checker)
18:58:32  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth updated pull request #7778: Docs: split compiling instructions from README, as they aren't requir…
18:59:05  <LordAro> something something GH Actions
18:59:05  <andythenorth> how I used git for so long without learning rebase -i :P
18:59:34  <Eddi|zuHause> if you're not using rebase, might as well use hg :p
18:59:41  <LordAro> or svn
18:59:59  <glx> I love rebase -i, you can even duplicate commits to split them
19:00:23  <Eddi|zuHause> wasn't there a different tool to split commits?
19:00:44  <frosch123> mercurial queues :p
19:00:46  <andythenorth> sometimes I'm tempted to use rebase -i at work to hide my mistakes :P
19:00:49  <andythenorth> but force push is banned
19:01:25  <glx> do it in a branch
19:01:27  <LordAro> it's fine as long as it's not been pushed anywhere
19:01:43  <LordAro> it's a bit silly if force push is banned globally
19:02:08  * andythenorth wonders how to do a relative link from to :P
19:02:09  <glx> I can understand force push ban on master
19:02:31  <LordAro> yeah
19:03:01  <LordAro> andythenorth: [./](foobar) i think?
19:03:01  <andythenorth> nielsm: honestly I might leave a compiling link out of README, can't see a good place for it
19:03:05  <glx> and of course not force pushing on something you know you're not the only one concerned
19:03:17  <glx> unless you ask before
19:03:35  <andythenorth> we have asynchronous collaboration on the same branch
19:03:40  <andythenorth> and email is deprecated
19:03:47  <andythenorth> and we have remote workers :P
19:03:54  <LordAro> yeah, use your own branch then :p
19:03:56  <andythenorth> so post-its on monitors also don't solve that
19:04:09  <LordAro> (or before pushing)
19:04:13  <nielsm> andythenorth: just add two lines in the About section, one referencing the Compiling file and one referencing Contributing
19:05:05  <andythenorth> ha ha
19:05:07  <andythenorth> check the README
19:05:17  <andythenorth> where does it say you can get binaries from? :)
19:05:38  <LordAro> should be somewhere :p
19:05:52  <andythenorth> $somewhere
19:06:19  <andythenorth> I'll make about 3 sections
19:06:28  <andythenorth> 1.1 Download 1.2 Compiling 1.3 Contributing
19:06:55  <andythenorth> why is Contact and Reporting Desyncs higher priority than Installing?
19:07:03  <andythenorth> not exactly confidence inspiring :P
19:07:14  <andythenorth> let's make this better
19:15:45  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth updated pull request #7778: Docs: split compiling instructions from README, as they aren't requir…
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19:16:46  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth updated pull request #7778: Docs: split compiling instructions from README, as they aren't requir…
19:17:01  <andythenorth> ^ fixed
19:17:09  <andythenorth> nielsm or LordAro could you check and approve that?
19:17:28  <andythenorth> I want to restructure the readme quite a lot, but in a different PR for separation of concerns
19:19:04  <LordAro> andythenorth: i'd probably get rid of the contents table from COMPILING, tbh
19:19:35  <nielsm> make the FSF folks happy and make one section for GNU/Linux, and another for FreeBSD, OpenBSD, Solaris, other unices
19:19:45  <nielsm> and put them in that order
19:19:53  <LordAro> heh
19:20:05  <andythenorth> what is Haiku even? :P
19:20:17  <nielsm> but don't put "unix" with "linux"
19:20:25  <andythenorth> oof
19:20:32  <nielsm> strictly, *BSD systems are unix, while GNU's Not Unix
19:21:01  <andythenorth> ToC definitely redundant?
19:21:05  <nielsm> yeah
19:21:09  <andythenorth> I was 50:50 on it, page isn't big
19:21:38  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth updated pull request #7778: Docs: split compiling instructions from README, as they aren't requir…
19:22:00  <andythenorth> hmm needs more edit
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19:22:56  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth updated pull request #7778: Docs: split compiling instructions from README, as they aren't requir…
19:23:05  <andythenorth> that's better
19:23:14  <nielsm> "Run ./configure to prepare the build system. Run ./configure --help to see the available options." \n "After configuring, run make (or gmake if your default make is not GNU compatible) to build, run make install to install the the configured location.
19:23:18  <glx> Haiku is the new BeOS
19:23:37  <andythenorth> I'm happy to let other folks edit specific platform stuff
19:23:49  <andythenorth> I'd rather spend time on README
19:24:14  <andythenorth> not sure if this is still useful? :)
19:24:41  <nielsm> these can be downloaded from the Files section at
19:24:43  <nielsm> wow
19:24:51  <LordAro> haha
19:25:17  <LordAro> yeah, i think that can go
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19:29:14  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth opened pull request #7779: Doc: drop Readme_OS2, it has aged, let it go gracefully
19:29:43  <andythenorth> should this just be in
19:30:13  <LordAro> bits and pieces could probably go in there, yeah
19:30:20  <LordAro> or maybe it should just be on the wiki
19:30:43  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro approved pull request #7779: Doc: drop Readme_OS2, it has aged, let it go gracefully
19:32:51  <andythenorth> well 1 section at a time: Supported Compilers is a dupe with
19:32:53  <glx> maybe just merge in
19:33:08  <glx> would make sense
19:33:32  <andythenorth> +1
19:33:34  <glx> it was like that to not overload README I think
19:33:54  <andythenorth> yes
19:33:57  <andythenorth> totally made sense
19:35:56  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro requested changes for pull request #7771: Add: UDP query of game script
19:36:24  <andythenorth> there are some useful wiki pages for compiling, I'm linking them
19:38:56  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth updated pull request #7778: Docs: split compiling instructions from README, as they aren't requir…
19:39:14  <glx> andythenorth: you changed to Docs again ;)
19:39:35  <andythenorth> ha ha
19:39:51  <andythenorth> I am doing commit --amend, oops
19:40:04  <andythenorth> using up-cursor in shell :P
19:40:25  <glx> commit --amend doesn't change the commit message
19:40:41  <andythenorth> it does if I remember to amend it?
19:40:50  <andythenorth> instead of reusing the old one
19:40:51  <glx> it does if you edit the file yes
19:41:02  <andythenorth> this url does not work in GH markdown*BSD
19:41:06  <andythenorth> the brackets fuck it
19:41:07  <glx> for me it opens an editor
19:41:26  <LordAro> heh
19:41:38  <glx> there should be a %something for that
19:41:52  <andythenorth> I'll used this page instead, life is short
19:41:54  <LordAro>
19:42:02  <glx> and my previous remark was about --amend
19:42:46  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth updated pull request #7778: Docs: split compiling instructions from README, as they aren't requir…
19:45:06  <andythenorth> ok I am hoping that's good to go?
19:45:46  <andythenorth> I'd like to consolidate docs/ separately
19:46:20  <LordAro> i wouldn't mind that being in the same PR
19:47:24  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro merged pull request #7779: Doc: drop Readme_OS2, it has aged, let it go gracefully
19:47:33  <milek7>
19:48:08  <LordAro> milek7: ...Haiku?
19:48:59  <milek7> yes
19:49:16  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on pull request #7778: Doc: split compiling instructions from README, as they aren't requir…
19:49:38  <Wolf01> Nice, it looks like OTTD running on OTTD :D
19:50:01  <LordAro> milek7: nice
19:54:52  <andythenorth> I did wonder
19:55:01  <andythenorth> cos *BSD is Unix afaik
19:56:03  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth updated pull request #7778: Doc: split compiling instructions from README, as they aren't requir…
19:56:24  <andythenorth> ok I'll consolidate the windows doc next
19:56:49  *** flyingghoti has joined #openttd
19:57:31  <flyingghoti> Hello, everyone! I'm part of a group that's just launched a new
19:58:11  <flyingghoti> open-source project called Charm Cities, and I thought there might be people here interested in comparing notes and experiences.
20:00:49  <flyingghoti> We're trying to create a new type of city-builder game that really advances the genre by including a complete sociopolitical model that includes topics like race, disability, gender, and religion. If that's the sort of thing you find interesting, or if there are things you've learned on OpenTTD that you think it would be helpful for us to know, or if there might be assets or code you've already built that you think might h
20:02:07  * andythenorth reads
20:02:17  <flyingghoti> You can reach us at, or stop by our Discord at - that's where most of the talking happens right now. Our GitHub repo is at but we're still in the early planning stages.
20:02:18  <andythenorth> without being cynical, sounds like griefer paradise :)
20:02:55  <andythenorth> it's perfect 4chan fodder
20:04:34  <Eddi|zuHause> i just saw a game on steam: "social justice warrior" :p
20:05:13  *** arikover has quit IRC
20:05:13  <flyingghoti> Oh, sure, that's definitely a concern. But I don't want to not make something cool because the worst people in the world might be mad that it exists. At some point, all you can really do is put 2FA on all your accounts and go for it.
20:08:50  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth updated pull request #7778: Doc: split compiling instructions from README, as they aren't requir…
20:09:01  <nielsm> best of luck, if you manage to make a belivable simulation with all those elements that isn't full of glitches you'll probably have solved problems considered impossible in mathematics, physics, and computer science along the way
20:09:09  <nielsm> not to speak of social sciences
20:09:20  <andythenorth> it's worth trying
20:10:14  <nielsm> random technical advice: think modding first, design the core structure around having everything in the game run on the same rules/pluggable architecture
20:10:16  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth updated pull request #7778: Doc: split compiling instructions from README, as they aren't requir…
20:10:33  <nielsm> unless you decide that mod support is off-limits and design the game to explicitly not be moddable
20:10:49  <andythenorth> I really don't know if I've ballsed up the Windows instructions
20:10:53  <andythenorth> not my field :(
20:12:01  <flyingghoti> Thanks, nielsm, I had the vague suspicion that would be a good plan but it's really helpful to hear it confirmed.
20:13:01  <nielsm> one of the annoying things in openttd is that it's built as a core game with built in defaults, and then mods are created as "take original item X and modify these properties"
20:13:19  <nielsm> and there is no such thing as starting a mod from a blank slate, you can only do it based off existing objects
20:14:15  <nielsm> this is due to legacy, inheriting the modding technology from ttdpatch that's an unofficial binary patch for transport tycoon deluxe, a 25 years old game
20:14:33  <flyingghoti> Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
20:15:18  <nielsm> and of course there's no way to change that now without breaking the thousands of things created already, it all has to stay compatible with all new development
20:16:17  <andythenorth> oh fuck git sometimes :(
20:16:28  <andythenorth> rebase upstream/master onto my master gets me a merge commit
20:16:29  <andythenorth> why?
20:16:40  <nielsm> having a strong mods-first policy also forces some strong separation of concerns on the program code and can to some extent avoid spaghetti
20:16:40  <Eddi|zuHause> well, we could break all existing mods, but i doubt the community would recover from that :p
20:17:33  <andythenorth> rebase -i seems to cover all sins :P
20:17:55  <LordAro> i mean, we could do "NewGRFv2" (yes i know the current version is 9, shut up), but there's no way we could ever get rid of "v1"
20:17:56  <nielsm> the disadvantage of that kind of arhitecture is that the decoupling most likely means worse performance than if everything was tightly integrated, and the development path to get to a good place is longer since you need much more framework built before you have things "working"
20:18:01  <Eddi|zuHause> don't worry, there'll be new sins where those came from :p
20:19:48  <nielsm> flyingghoti: another thing to know about openttd's architecture, which may not be relevant to you, is that the game is designed to be 100% deterministic, if two players load the same save file in the same revision of openttd, and let it run without interaction (and no AIs or Game Script either), the two will produce exactly the same result
20:19:55  <andythenorth> I really think that the modding framework in OpenTTD is fine
20:20:06  <nielsm> that's the foundation of the multiplayer support in openttd, that every client executes exactly the same simulation
20:20:07  <andythenorth> it's just that we fell in a cognitive hole with GS
20:20:29  <nielsm> it's possible to do multiplayer in other ways, but this is the way ottd handles it
20:21:24  <nielsm> andythenorth: well it would be cool if we could somehow define even the base vehicle set in a GRF
20:21:45  <andythenorth> well I have often wondered about that
20:21:45  <flyingghoti> That is interesting, yeah - we've discussed multiplayer a bit but we haven't come to a decision on how important it is to us yet. If we decide to leave it out of our minimum viable product we should still think about questions like that so it's not impossible to implement later.
20:21:59  <andythenorth> my assumption nielsm is that a bunch of .h files or similar can then be dropped :P
20:22:11  <andythenorth> and we know...extende the base vehicles with cargo classes :P
20:22:29  <andythenorth> thereby avoiding one of the common newgrf elephant traps
20:22:31  <Eddi|zuHause> flyingghoti: if you think multiplayer isn't a focus early on, you'll probably never have multiplayer, ever.
20:22:58  <nielsm> yes multiplayer is also one of those things you have to design for from the ground up
20:23:21  <nielsm> it will permeate the entire code base
20:23:37  <nielsm> ...depending on the architecture
20:24:16  <andythenorth> anyone got comments on that Windows compiling info?
20:24:24  <nielsm> and all of these things are also covered by my favourite game engine of all time, the Quake 1 engine
20:24:28  <andythenorth> I can only maintain interest in something like that for a limited period :P
20:24:36  * andythenorth attention span issues
20:24:51  <nielsm> it's mods-first, and even singleplayer games are internally handled as client-server
20:24:54  <andythenorth> Quak 1: the reason you bought a Pentium
20:24:55  <LordAro> probably needs nielsm to review
20:25:15  <andythenorth> nielsm: have you read the Carmack / Romero book?
20:25:16  <andythenorth> it's good
20:25:26  <nielsm> I'm not typing clearly atm, have to retype sentences a lot :)
20:25:29  <nielsm> should sleep
20:25:29  <andythenorth>
20:25:38  <andythenorth> I never type clearly it seems
20:25:41  <nielsm> no but I probably should
20:25:52  <andythenorth> real focus on authoring tools, very early on
20:25:54  <frosch123> andythenorth: i never bought a pentium
20:25:54  <andythenorth> super important
20:26:02  <andythenorth> you got given one? :P
20:26:23  <frosch123> i used k6 and k6 II around that time
20:26:38  <nielsm> I played quake on a pentium 75 mhz and it was barely good enough
20:26:51  <dwfreed> there's probably still a pentium pro 200 MHz at my parents' place
20:26:54  <glx> AI and gamescript addition was "cleaner"
20:27:10  <andythenorth> yeah, my friend had a PC and upgraded from 486-66 to Pentium 75 or 90, and Quake just about got playable FPS
20:27:21  <andythenorth> 'when computers had turbo buttons'
20:27:29  <flyingghoti> I'm wrapping up my work day and I don't want to keep you from the exciting work of sorting out Windows compiling, so I'm going to head out now, but thank you for the thoughts! This was really useful, and I might come back some time. If you're interested in following what we're getting up to, check out the website!
20:27:40  <andythenorth> good luck
20:27:45  <Eddi|zuHause> i upgraded from a 386 to a K6-III or so
20:27:51  <frosch123> LordAro: btw. the solution to remove newgrf is to go the pentium route. jit them into the new format
20:27:56  <nielsm> Eddi|zuHause: that's a massive jump
20:28:17  <LordAro> frosch123: mm, possible
20:28:32  <andythenorth> oof
20:28:33  <nielsm> implement a newgrf VM in whatever new language of choice
20:28:36  <Eddi|zuHause> nielsm: don't remember, about 10 times the speed?
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20:28:53  <LordAro> nielsm: for loops in yaml!
20:28:54  <andythenorth> err because the website is now quite burocratic
20:29:06  <andythenorth> do I do one screenshot at a time, and wait weeks to assemble a batch?
20:29:11  <andythenorth> or just do a PR as I get them
20:29:12  <andythenorth> ??
20:29:12  <nielsm> Eddi|zuHause, maybe measured in mhz, probably more like 30x actual execution speed
20:29:41  <LordAro> andythenorth: no harm in waiting a bit longer, imo
20:29:49  <dwfreed> dem IPC gainz
20:29:53  <nielsm> andythenorth: live website is only updated when a release tag is made
20:29:59  <andythenorth> a PR for one screenshot seems overkill
20:30:02  <andythenorth> but I only have one
20:30:15  <Eddi|zuHause> nielsm: afair it didn't survive very long, some capacitor on the mainboard exploded, and i had to get a new one
20:30:55  <andythenorth> can we ditch any of this to the wiki?
20:31:09  <LordAro> andythenorth: i'd be more inclined to merge a screenshot PR if it contained 1.5-8 title games :p
20:31:13  <andythenorth> only Windows seems to need all that stuff, the other platforms are a couple of lines
20:31:48  <LordAro> andythenorth: i would prefer it if the links were more specific
20:31:56  <LordAro> the stackexchange link above should help
20:32:15  <LordAro> alternatively %28 & %29
20:32:17  <frosch123> andythenorth: usually you want to ditch the wiki into docs :p
20:32:24  <andythenorth> owned
20:32:59  <LordAro> andythenorth: "To get them use [vcpkg](githublink)..."
20:33:15  <LordAro> also it still refers to the doc you just removed :p
20:33:44  <LordAro> in fact, that whole section is out of order
20:33:52  <LordAro> SDK -> Dependencies -> Build
20:33:57  <LordAro> i thnk
20:35:09  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth updated pull request #7778: Doc: split compiling instructions from README, as they aren't requir…
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20:37:10  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth updated pull request #7778: Doc: split compiling instructions from README, as they aren't requir…
20:37:38  <andythenorth> isn't the deps stuff duplicated now?
20:37:40  <andythenorth>
20:38:11  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth updated pull request #7778: Doc: split compiling instructions from README, as they aren't requir…
20:39:08  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth updated pull request #7778: Doc: split compiling instructions from README, as they aren't requir…
20:39:35  <andythenorth> "To get them just use vcpkg using x86-windows-static and x64-windows-static triplets)."
20:39:51  <andythenorth> "To install both the x64 (64bit) and x86 (32bit) variants, you can use: [instructions for vcpkg]"
20:39:57  <andythenorth> seems to overlap?
20:40:18  <LordAro> mm
20:41:02  <andythenorth> 'additonal' typo repeated multiple times also
20:41:04  <andythenorth> lol
20:41:23  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth updated pull request #7778: Doc: split compiling instructions from README, as they aren't requir…
20:42:06  <andythenorth> in the compiling doc, surely required libraries comes before instructions?
20:43:48  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth updated pull request #7778: Doc: split compiling instructions from README, as they aren't requir…
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20:47:12  <glx> <-- finally got a nice output
20:48:12  <LordAro> nice
20:48:18  <nielsm> ship it
20:48:46  <glx> I need to add some safety stuff, like checking it's not a windows VM :)
20:49:00  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth updated pull request #7778: Doc: split compiling instructions from README, as they aren't requir…
20:49:29  <andythenorth> ^ I think that might be done, barring fuckups :)
20:49:38  <andythenorth> if anyone fancies clicking some green buttons in GH :P
20:50:06  <LordAro> andythenorth: libicu is is Linux only nowadays
20:50:11  <glx> <-- docker version is not as good
20:50:26  <LordAro> and... so is libfreetype? or am i misremembering?
20:50:42  <glx> freetype is droped on windows yes
20:50:53  <andythenorth> and others?
20:51:08  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth updated pull request #7778: Doc: split compiling instructions from README, as they aren't requir…
20:51:22  <glx> still included in compile farm for 1.9 windows builds
20:51:48  <andythenorth> I've noted libicu
20:51:55  <andythenorth> if someone wants to review deps formally, they can :)
20:52:04  <andythenorth> this was just about cleaning up README :P
20:52:19  <andythenorth> like topsy, it has growed
20:52:24  <andythenorth> what even is topsy? :P
20:53:22  <andythenorth> google knew
20:53:25  <LordAro> andythenorth: "or more recent" -> "or newer"
20:53:34  <LordAro> i should probably review this properly on GH
20:53:49  <andythenorth> pls
20:53:53  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth updated pull request #7778: Doc: split compiling instructions from README, as they aren't requir…
20:54:41  * andythenorth must to bed, you could just fork it and make in-place edits
20:55:00  <andythenorth> reviewing .md docs via GH seems like double handling to me
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20:55:13  <andythenorth> at work we just trade commits, or use etherpad
20:55:20  <andythenorth> or docs :P
20:55:22  <LordAro> can't make it too easy for you :p
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20:57:06  <andythenorth> I love that the major feature in the readme is 5.1) Logging of potentially dangerous actions
20:57:09  <andythenorth>
20:58:24  <andythenorth> :D
21:04:01  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro requested changes for pull request #7778: Doc: split compiling instructions from README, as they aren't requir…
21:07:16  <LordAro> andythenorth: major feature?
21:08:22  <andythenorth> it's the main topic under OpenTTD features
21:08:42  <andythenorth> I shall fix that...once I can restructure README safely :)
21:08:48  <LordAro> oh i see
21:08:51  <LordAro> :)
21:09:03  <andythenorth> the README is quite lolz, looked at with fresh eyes
21:09:06  <andythenorth> but very fixable
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21:18:52  <andythenorth> is it bedtime? :P
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