Log for #openttd on 19th October 2019:
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07:13:34  <andythenorth> o/
07:15:05  <nielsm> morning
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08:04:21  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro approved pull request #7778: Doc: split compiling instructions from README, as they aren't requir…
08:19:33  <andythenorth> \o/
08:20:12  <andythenorth> eh nielsm, I just rediscovered this screenshot :D
08:20:20  <andythenorth> that one's fake, but eh
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10:00:32  <andythenorth> can we simplify the 'get started' text?
10:00:40  <andythenorth> seems quite overwhelming?
10:02:55  <nielsm> "installing is fairly straightforward. <five long paragraphs of text followed by five subsections>"
10:03:55  <nielsm> installation instructions would perhaps be simpler if we could distribute ogfx directly in the package
10:04:40  <nielsm> or if the automatic bananas baseset download if a base graphics is missing, worked everywhere (supposedly it does not)
10:07:02  <andythenorth> I will think on
10:07:16  <andythenorth> does this
10:07:20  <andythenorth> overlap with
10:07:26  <andythenorth> above my pay grade?
10:08:41  <andythenorth> converted the second one to md
10:08:43  <andythenorth> easier to read
10:17:24  <andythenorth> afaict, all of 'debugging_desyncs' is already in 'desync'
10:17:29  <andythenorth> what do I miss?
10:38:15  <Artea> candy time
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10:53:16  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth opened pull request #7781: Doc: convert some docs to markdown
10:53:28  <stefino> Hi. Sorry for the same question again but will be able to have different roadstops overlays in the future?
10:53:47  <andythenorth> there is no plan to do that
10:54:00  <andythenorth> almost everything for the future of OpenTTD is 'unknown'
10:54:01  <andythenorth> :)
10:54:56  <andythenorth> ^^ can haz docs review?  LordAro? :)
10:55:30  <andythenorth> we have 30% of a gameplay manual in /docs :P
10:55:48  <andythenorth> well more of a technical manual actually :)
10:56:04  <stefino> yes yes I know :) it is only an idea because our roadtypes are divided by year and would be nice to have old, new ones , bus stops from village or city
10:56:54  <stefino> in case that is possible to have underlays for it
10:58:10  <stefino> I don't know how difficult is to code it but it will be good for us (for 4x zoom)
11:00:02  <stefino> little bit strange to have modern roadstop made of metal and glass in 1920 :D
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11:09:55  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/website] andythenorth opened pull request #106: Create
11:10:25  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/website] andythenorth closed pull request #103: Draft 2019 October dev post
11:11:19  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/website] andythenorth updated pull request #106: Create
11:11:47  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/website] andythenorth updated pull request #106: Create
11:12:08  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/website] andythenorth updated pull request #106: Create
11:12:36  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/website] andythenorth updated pull request #106: Create
11:14:09  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/website] andythenorth updated pull request #106: Create
11:16:27  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/website] andythenorth updated pull request #106: Create
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11:52:51  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/website] James103 commented on pull request #106: Create
11:57:44  <andythenorth> does need to work for people with no internet access?
11:57:53  <andythenorth> e.g. those playing via CD-ROM etc?
11:58:01  <nielsm> it's included in the binary distribution
11:58:04  <nielsm> so IMO yes
11:58:23  * andythenorth finding many overlaps between README, other /docs, OpenTTD website
11:58:25  <andythenorth> and obviously, wiki
11:58:40  <andythenorth> and due to natural entropy, the information varies :)
11:58:56  <andythenorth> my preference is fewer places, more canonical, less maintenance
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12:07:27  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on pull request #7781: Doc: convert some docs to markdown
12:09:03  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/website] glx22 commented on pull request #106: Create
12:10:54  <andythenorth> lolz
12:11:24  <glx> yeah it's a little annoying :)
12:11:56  <andythenorth> oh also
12:11:58  <andythenorth> "git mv docs/HOWTO_compile_lang_files.txt docs/"
12:12:03  <andythenorth> didn't keep history? :o
12:12:14  <glx> the diff says so
12:12:14  * andythenorth thought that was correct command :P
12:12:26  <glx> it worked for other files
12:12:45  <nielsm> make sure the rename is the only thing in the commit
12:12:47  <andythenorth> let me see if I can trick it
12:12:48  <LordAro> it's sometimes a little funny how it displays file moves
12:14:41  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth updated pull request #7781: Doc: convert some docs to markdown
12:15:09  * andythenorth testing what it does now
12:15:35  <glx> 5 files changed instead of 6
12:15:56  <glx> but no .md
12:17:24  <andythenorth> and docs/HOWTO_compile_lang_files.txt is gone
12:17:36  <andythenorth> even though my git stage showed it as added as a new file
12:17:43  <andythenorth> interesting
12:18:17  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth updated pull request #7781: Doc: convert some docs to markdown
12:18:18  <andythenorth> ok I see what I did
12:19:12  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth updated pull request #7781: Doc: convert some docs to markdown
12:20:05  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth updated pull request #7781: Doc: convert some docs to markdown
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12:20:59  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth updated pull request #7781: Doc: convert some docs to markdown
12:21:11  <andythenorth> ok so again, that broke the history
12:21:28  <andythenorth> that's quite annoying
12:21:41  <andythenorth> I must be doing git wrong
12:21:46  <andythenorth> what's the correct way to rename?
12:22:16  <andythenorth> git mv docs/HOWTO_compile_lang_files.txt docs/ is wrong
12:23:32  <glx> history is ok I think, as the rename is shown in the diff
12:25:03  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth updated pull request #7781: Doc: convert some docs to markdown
12:25:28  <andythenorth> ok so that should be back in same state now :P
12:25:31  * andythenorth adventures in git
12:27:22  <glx> back to step 1 ;)
12:27:42  <glx> I can try something too
12:28:26  <andythenorth> pls :)
12:35:48  <andythenorth> I have a partial manifest of our docs / web pages :D
12:36:42  <andythenorth> canonical score 0.5 out of 1 :P
12:56:02  <glx> grr silly git
13:00:31  <glx> thats crazy, I can move it, then edit it, but once I squash the commits it returns to delete txt create md
13:03:38  <andythenorth> :D
13:03:57  <glx> but I'm sure there's a solution
13:08:36  <nielsm> yeah git doesn't have a concept of rename as such
13:08:44  <nielsm> you need to keep a commit that does nothing but rename
13:08:50  <nielsm> no text changes
13:14:11  <andythenorth> oof
13:21:36  <glx> seems it's because the new files contains too many modifications
13:22:18  <andythenorth> 100% diff? :P
13:23:38  <nielsm> yes
13:23:57  <nielsm> git guesses renames based on amount of identical file contents
13:24:08  <glx> @ -1,72 +1,69 @@
13:24:13  <nielsm> so the safest is to keep the rename in a separate commit
13:24:19  <glx> that's a big diff :)
13:25:18  <glx> andythenorth: I can split the commit in 2, so first rename, then edit for all files
13:30:18  <andythenorth> seems fine
13:31:28  <andythenorth> what happens when we squash it though?
13:34:52  <nielsm> don't squash it
13:35:03  <nielsm> it needs to stay separate commits forever
13:35:09  <nielsm> otherwise it doesn't count as a rename
13:45:06  <andythenorth> I'm drafting a proposal for what docs to put where
13:45:12  <andythenorth> crowd opinions:
13:45:19  <andythenorth> - usefulness of feature list here?
13:49:06  <nielsm> it's too long
13:49:33  <nielsm> ideally should be made more pretty-layout-y
13:52:53  <andythenorth> do we have control of eints?
13:53:03  <andythenorth> I keep finding translation info around the place
13:53:08  <andythenorth> sometimes outdated
13:53:16  <andythenorth> what I want to do is always just link to
13:53:22  <andythenorth> and put the instructions in place there
13:54:13  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 updated pull request #7781: Doc: convert some docs to markdown
13:55:25  <glx> ahah the diff containing both commits is still wrong, but each commit is ok
13:59:55  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on pull request #7781: Doc: convert some docs to markdown
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14:07:52  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/website] glx22 commented on pull request #106: Create
14:08:09  <andythenorth> hurrah
14:10:11  <frosch123> andythenorth: <- are you looking for that?
14:10:21  <frosch123> mind the "openttd" branch, it's not "master"
14:10:45  <andythenorth> yes that's helpful thanks
14:10:51  <andythenorth> is eints deployable?
14:10:59  <andythenorth> or is it yak-shaving?
14:11:23  <frosch123> it requires a manual "git update"
14:11:27  <frosch123> i can do that
14:11:38  <frosch123> but it is not tb-magic-automatic
14:12:08  <andythenorth> ta
14:12:14  * andythenorth making a list of what should be where
14:12:24  <andythenorth> probably some weeks / months of work for me to do it all :)
14:21:35  <andythenorth> it's interesting that this is lost in /docs
14:21:52  <andythenorth> strikes me it could have been (1) on the wiki or (2) moved into website
14:23:36  <andythenorth> wonder how it compares to
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15:52:22  <andythenorth> I am going to write a better front page for
15:52:48  <andythenorth> is it known how to become a translator?
15:53:42  <andythenorth> is accurate?
15:54:17  <glx> yes that's the procedure, send an email and wait
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15:55:16  <glx> but there are some ideas about changing this procedure
15:56:09  <andythenorth> oh we have sphinx docs?
15:56:11  <andythenorth> that's exciting
15:56:25  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro merged pull request #7778: Doc: split compiling instructions from README, as they aren't requir…
15:56:48  <andythenorth> huzzah
15:56:48  <frosch123> andy discovering his own work :)
15:57:24  <andythenorth> oof :)
15:59:27  <frosch123> hmm, compiling wine reminds me of my gentoo days
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16:16:17  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro approved pull request #7759: Codechange: Use std::vector for industry tile layouts
16:16:28  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro merged pull request #7759: Codechange: Use std::vector for industry tile layouts
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17:17:43  <andythenorth> is there anyone who actually can review this? :)
17:18:49  <glx> seems correct but I'm not a nml person
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17:19:45  <andythenorth> I used to have admin rights on nml
17:19:50  <andythenorth> on coop
17:20:06  <andythenorth> but I gave them up so we could move them under official support
17:21:37  <FLHerne> Speaking of nml...
17:22:00  <FLHerne> When I run `make test`, I just get `Running test 001_action8`, `Running test 002_...`
17:22:06  <FLHerne> I assume that means they passed?
17:23:09  <andythenorth> they fail visibly if they fail
17:24:17  * andythenorth exploring
17:26:39  <glx> you're in editor team
17:27:02  <andythenorth> wondering if there should be an nml team
17:27:20  <glx> that's what I was thinking
17:27:30  <andythenorth> TB made comments about the nml project config, can't remember what
17:27:32  <andythenorth> they were lolzy
17:29:13  <frosch123> none of the projects except main ottd have any rules configured
17:30:13  <glx> indeed there's no actual need for approval in nml
17:30:14  <frosch123> it's a lot of yak shaving and looking up what settings anctually mean
17:32:04  <andythenorth> hmm
17:32:12  <andythenorth> I wonder if we know what we actually want
17:32:40  <andythenorth> the advantage on coop was that I was terrified of how much power I had :P
17:32:50  <andythenorth> so I rarely touched anything
17:33:10  <andythenorth> full project admin rights, full merge rights, no approval process, and quite lax issue tracking
17:33:23  <glx> we could create an nml team with admin rights on nml repo I guess
17:33:41  <frosch123> just don't allow andy to make merge commits :)
17:33:54  <glx> merge commits are disabled in the settings
17:34:11  <glx> well for PRs
17:34:32  <frosch123> my problem with gh is that i have no idea what someone is allowed to do, given some settings
17:34:36  <glx> but we also need a workflow checking commits and compilation
17:34:47  <frosch123> most settings are a mystery to me
17:35:39  <andythenorth> well, at the risk of suggesting a policy...
17:35:56  <andythenorth> could we cargo-cult the OpenTTD settings? :P
17:36:01  <glx> basically there are 2 types of peoples in the organisations, owners and members
17:36:26  <glx> owner are unlimited, members can have access depending on teams
17:39:52  <glx> oh there are also collaborators
17:42:08  <glx> to give access on a repo base for people not in the organisation
17:43:09  <andythenorth> all the access controls :)
17:46:13  * andythenorth yak-shaving all the places we publish stuff
17:46:22  <andythenorth> list is WIP
17:46:41  <glx> hmm master is not protected for nml
17:46:55  <glx> we should probably enable that
17:47:03  <andythenorth> I think that was TB's main point
17:47:43  <frosch123> yeah, there is no way to do that for all the 20 repositories at once
17:48:10  <frosch123> wow, i just guessed the number, but we actually have exactly 20
17:48:30  * andythenorth wonders if there's a policy file approach
17:48:40  <glx> just added basic protection
17:49:10  <glx> ie no forced push to master and no deletion
17:49:26  <frosch123> anyway, if there was a separate nml team, would there also be separate teams for opengfx, sfx, msx, ... i.e. lots of empty teams?
17:50:46  <glx> nml team would just be to allow more power for some people but only on the nml repo
17:51:36  <glx> owner equivalent but without access to everything
17:52:13  <glx> like andy could manage all settings in nml
17:52:31  <glx> and add people to help him too
17:52:50  <glx> without relying on OpenTTD owners
17:53:18  <andythenorth> I wondered about inner and outer wheel
17:53:24  <frosch123> i don't think adding members is the bottleneck, it more about who can approve prs
17:53:27  <andythenorth> rather than specific teams
17:53:54  <andythenorth> there might be projects where we trade velocity against security
17:54:03  <andythenorth> or to explain differently
17:54:20  <andythenorth> when we moved from FS + forums + svn to github, core commits and activity increased
17:54:27  <andythenorth> because GH is much better than those ways
17:54:39  <andythenorth> but when we moved some projects from coop to GH, activity has died
17:54:51  <andythenorth> because GH has imposed a workflow that we have nobody interested in using
17:55:06  <glx> hmm nothing was imposed on nml
17:55:43  <glx> except having write access to the repo
17:56:14  <glx> and you have this access
17:56:54  <andythenorth> yes
17:56:59  <andythenorth> so can I just click the button?
17:57:03  <glx> yes
17:57:08  <andythenorth> I am totally unclear who the maintainer is for nml
17:57:11  <andythenorth> is that like poke?
17:57:13  <andythenorth> poker *
17:57:18  <andythenorth> does it mean it's me :(
17:57:23  <glx> if it's green you can click
17:57:46  <glx> maintainer for nml is currently OpenTTD owner members
18:00:19  <andythenorth> cool
18:01:08  <glx> well there's noone in maintainer role, as both teams just have 'write' permission only (none has 'maintain' or 'admin' access)
18:01:44  <andythenorth> I mean more like the politics of it
18:01:47  <glx> and of course owners are admin
18:01:48  <andythenorth> BDFL
18:02:34  <andythenorth> anyway, if there are no current objections, I am going to start approving my own PRs after a few days grace
18:03:25  <LordAro> approving your own PRs? :o
18:03:30  <frosch123> was the same fore coop and ottd-svn
18:04:57  <andythenorth> website should be on same basis really
18:05:13  <andythenorth> 'you break it, you own it' :P
18:05:26  <andythenorth> frosch123: do you not remember picking my bad commits out of hg nml? :P
18:05:59  <frosch123> now that you mention it :p
18:06:10  <andythenorth> I had sweaty palms :P
18:06:19  <andythenorth> oof
18:06:22  <frosch123> anyway, i have no idea what gh setting apply to the gui/pr,and what to direct pushes
18:06:52  <frosch123> but i was refering to 2016, when only albert was reviewing every now and then
18:07:14  <andythenorth> those were dark times :)
18:07:22  <andythenorth> there was one frog-shaped maintainer
18:07:28  <andythenorth> and I really thought you might just quit
18:08:01  <andythenorth> then I deleted, ahem 'closed', 500 FS issues, and peter took a run at FS patches
18:08:12  <frosch123> there were no infrastructure issues, so i could just ignore everything boring :)
18:08:49  <andythenorth> unrelated, should I just have ssh on bundles?
18:09:21  <andythenorth> I don't actually need to automate publishing the artefacts for every rev from CI
18:09:33  <peter1138> Hi
18:09:47  <andythenorth> manually uploading tags would be better than current situation, where all my grfs are outdated on bundles :)
18:10:05  <andythenorth> I can scp quite reliably, if I look up the man page on google :P
18:10:12  <andythenorth> hello peter1138
18:10:17  <andythenorth> how far today?
18:10:22  <peter1138> 0
18:10:27  <andythenorth> :0
18:10:45  <andythenorth> how far in minecraft?
18:10:51  * andythenorth invents minecraft pedometer
18:15:53  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] andythenorth merged pull request #48: Docs: (fixes #45) remove unused spritesets from roadtype example
18:15:55  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] andythenorth pushed 1 commits to master
18:15:55  <DorpsGek_III>   - Doc: (fix) remove unused spritesets from roadtype example (#48) (by andythenorth)
18:16:21  <andythenorth> can't see a commit style checker for nml
18:22:02  <frosch123> just assume there is nothing
18:23:56  <frosch123> i can't even imagine how many clicks it would need to configure checks for all gh repos
18:24:22  <frosch123> compared to a bash loop on coop server
18:24:36  <frosch123> and we didn't even have hooks on coop :p
18:28:43  <andythenorth> do any of these GH settings map to gitconfig?
18:29:49  * andythenorth googling
18:30:13  <frosch123> afaik there are 3 ways to get a commit message into a gh repo
18:30:45  <frosch123> direct push, pr approve, and manual message in pr squash
18:31:11  <frosch123> we only know one check method that only works for path 2
18:31:22  <frosch123> so, i would say, gh is not meant for detailed checks
18:42:30  <andythenorth> I noticed some of my older nml commits are invalid
18:42:34  <andythenorth> (commit messages
18:43:14  <frosch123> there are many invalid ones
18:43:34  <andythenorth> no kittens died?
18:43:41  <frosch123> that's no excuse to completely abandon style though :p
18:51:52  <TrueBrain> pfft, and sneaking in 2 commits into one .. lazy .. so lazy ..
18:57:24  <andythenorth> 'efficient'
18:59:44  <glx> hmm DorpsGek_III speaks to much for nml
19:06:12  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] BlackPlague666 commented on issue #7767: Terrible lag, low FPS
19:08:51  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] glx22 opened pull request #49: Change: [DorpsGek] don't push push notifications to IRC
19:09:08  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] BlackPlague666 commented on issue #7767: Terrible lag, low FPS
19:14:20  <glx> hmm really slow drawing in these screenshot it seems
19:14:49  <glx> but train ticks are worse
19:15:56  <glx> signals on each tile maybe
19:16:38  <andythenorth> full animation?
19:16:46  <andythenorth> the weird news FPS bug?
19:17:04  <glx> no it really seems it's the trains
19:20:36  <LordAro> does look like a lot of signals
19:21:01  <glx> and 800 trains
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19:24:00  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] andythenorth merged pull request #49: Change: [DorpsGek] don't push push notifications to IRC
19:24:12  <glx> it worked :)
19:24:17  <LordAro> :)
19:24:20  <andythenorth> only one way to test it :)
19:24:24  <andythenorth> and that was merge :P
19:25:10  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] andythenorth commented on issue #45: White pixel warnings when compiling example_roadtype_and_tramtype.nml
19:25:10  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] andythenorth closed issue #45: White pixel warnings when compiling example_roadtype_and_tramtype.nml
19:28:37  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on issue #7767: Terrible lag, low FPS
19:31:38  <nielsm> should the dev post also mention that one or two new bugs that crept into 1.9.3?
19:31:40  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on pull request #7780: Feature: Configure minimum share trading years
19:31:47  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro merged pull request #7780: Feature: Configure minimum share trading years
19:32:23  <glx> hmm maybe yes
19:32:43  <andythenorth> now it's on the main repo, just edit :)
19:32:46  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] BlackPlague666 commented on issue #7767: Terrible lag, low FPS
19:32:47  <andythenorth> then press go
19:33:09  <glx> andythenorth: it was already doable when in your repo ;)
19:33:56  <andythenorth> what you lot can edit in my repo?
19:33:58  <andythenorth> without forking?
19:34:03  <andythenorth> witchcraft
19:34:06  <glx> from PR yes
19:34:20  <glx> unless you uncheck a box when creating the PR
19:34:46  <glx> that's why I could rebase your txt->md PR
19:34:51  <nielsm> there's the station sign position thing preventing you from making new orders
19:35:00  <nielsm> I think there was also one with AIs?
19:35:06  <glx> there's also the AI bug yes
19:35:34  <glx> a forgotten backport
19:36:07  <glx> and this one is worse as it crashes the game
19:38:17  <andythenorth> A [game-crashing bug]( with relocated station signs was fixed, and a [crash when exiting the scenario editor](
19:38:32  <andythenorth> are the two I thought were important
19:38:34  <andythenorth> might be others
19:39:16  <nielsm> those are not 1.9.3 bugs though
19:39:42  <andythenorth> they're in this section
19:39:44  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/website] nielsmh updated pull request #106: Create
19:40:18  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on issue #7770: Current-location indicator in orders list missing
19:40:30  <andythenorth> oh yes I see, that makes sense
19:40:35  <glx>
19:40:43  <glx> this one is still in 1.9.3
19:40:57  <andythenorth> 1.9.4? :P
19:41:25  <nielsm> rather not
19:41:28  <glx> we forgot the mark the fix as "to be backported"
19:41:49  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro closed issue #7776: Go To Depot default
19:41:49  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on issue #7776: Go To Depot default
19:41:58  <andythenorth> what's the overhead on releases?
19:42:13  <nielsm> getting players to update
19:42:19  <andythenorth> makes sense
19:42:27  <andythenorth> we have work projects that can ship several times in an hour
19:42:28  <nielsm> multiplayer servers lagging behind splitting the player base
19:42:40  <andythenorth> others take 1-2 weeks, mostly due to customer comms
19:43:11  <LordAro> not sure what to do with the other order related issues
19:43:31  <LordAro> closing them as "no suggestions here, only issues" probably, but seems overly harsh :)
19:43:37  * LordAro lets andythenorth do it
19:43:48  <andythenorth> there are 96 issues
19:43:55  <andythenorth> which is about 20-30 too many imho
19:44:00  <andythenorth> I will close some later in the year
19:44:21  <andythenorth> right now I have the layout of ~all our docs in my head :P
19:44:23  <nielsm> if we had a way to release client-side-only patchlevel versions we could fix the little making-orders-to-stations-not-below-sign bug
19:44:24  <andythenorth> can't hold much else
19:44:45  <andythenorth> does eints need more words than this?
19:45:07  <andythenorth> do the extra ones here add much?
19:45:35  <andythenorth> or the ones here?
19:46:13  <andythenorth> I have eints checked out so I can add words
19:47:27  <glx> don't forget to work from openttd branch
19:47:42  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on issue #7767: Large numbers of trains and signals cause low FPS
19:47:59  <glx> and target this branch if you open a PR
19:48:04  <andythenorth> there's only master in the eints repo now
19:48:13  <andythenorth>
19:48:23  <glx> no there's an openttd branch
19:48:26  <andythenorth> yeah I found it
19:48:41  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] BlackPlague666 commented on issue #7767: Large numbers of trains and signals cause low FPS
19:48:46  <glx> master is the generic eints
19:48:46  <LordAro> eints doesn't autodeploy, afaik
19:49:11  <andythenorth> 'when git branch doesn't list the branches'
19:49:23  <glx> git branch -l
19:50:46  <andythenorth> hmm, can't run eints, dropping that, too many things in the air :)
19:53:43  <frosch123> nielsm: the majority of players are singleplayer
19:53:55  <frosch123> so if you want to fix something, just 1.9.4, or wait a month
19:54:08  <glx> the majority of servers are empty ;)
19:58:14  <andythenorth> I would sooner force server updates than have a hard-crash bug in prod
19:58:24  <andythenorth> causes failure demand :P
19:59:18  <andythenorth> frosch123: is it known / rememberable / discoverable how to make windows nmlc.exe?
19:59:38  <andythenorth>
19:59:45  <glx> make in mingw terminal ?
19:59:57  <milek7> i think it is unnecessary
20:00:32  <frosch123> andythenorth: i have been trying to make a proper docker for weeks now
20:00:39  <frosch123> i have no luck with wine
20:00:43  <andythenorth> is it TMWFTLB?
20:01:01  <frosch123> it would be little work, if it works
20:01:22  <frosch123> but i cannot even install msys in wine
20:01:36  <frosch123> the installer fails at 60% with whatever
20:01:44  <andythenorth> can we do it on Azure Pipelines?
20:01:55  <andythenorth> just get a Windows worker node?
20:02:00  <glx> or github actions
20:02:07  <frosch123> probably, but i cannot test that locally
20:02:12  <andythenorth> no you can't
20:02:19  <andythenorth> and the cycle time on Azure is horrible
20:02:35  <glx> I just need the steps and I can try something
20:02:55  <andythenorth> can we at least put the instructions in nml repo?
20:02:59  <frosch123> glx: install msys2 and python3
20:03:05  <andythenorth> then whoever can be bothered :)
20:03:20  <glx> I have msys2 here
20:03:31  <frosch123> msys2 has a python3 package
20:03:40  <frosch123> when you have that and pip, you can pip pyinstaller
20:03:51  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] andythenorth commented on issue #42: Document how to release nmlc, including building a windows binary
20:04:07  <glx> but if we can do it without requiring msys2 it's better for github/azure VMs
20:04:48  <glx> seems I have python 2.6.4 installed on my system
20:04:59  <frosch123> you need 3.x
20:05:25  <frosch123> 3.4+ or something
20:05:46  <glx> 3.8.0 is ok ?
20:05:52  <andythenorth> should be fine
20:08:19  <LordAro> glx: clearly should test with all versions
20:08:40  <glx> that's doable with actions
20:08:52  <glx>
20:09:02  <frosch123> oh, nml has cx_freeze specific code
20:09:03  <glx> many versions are available on the VMs
20:09:26  <frosch123> so, better to use cx_freeze directly
20:12:44  <LordAro> ew, cx_freeze
20:16:51  <frosch123> anyway, if cx_freeze is installed and knows the compiler and stuff, it's just a "cxfreeze nmlc", and then zipping the results
20:20:02  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] andythenorth commented on issue #42: Document how to release nmlc, including building a windows binary
20:21:30  <glx> ok I have python3 installed
20:25:42  <andythenorth> cxfreeze nmlc gets me...something
20:25:48  * andythenorth reading the docs
20:27:01  <andythenorth> got some .so files
20:27:04  <andythenorth> shared objects? :P
20:27:11  <glx> of course  "python .\ install" fails as I don't run with admin rights
20:28:16  <andythenorth> I really dislike the common need to sudo :P
20:28:19  <andythenorth> fairly scary
20:28:59  <frosch123> you can check the old bundles what files are needed
20:29:04  <LordAro> shouldn't need to install it, just bundle
20:29:10  <frosch123> iirc it always missed to copy some dlls
20:29:26  <glx> the readme is unclear ;)
20:29:44  <glx> oh I should read the makefile
20:30:08  <andythenorth> glx: 'the readme is unclear' becomes circular :D
20:30:48  <glx> hmm and I don't really want to install
20:30:50  <frosch123> <- something like that
20:31:19  <andythenorth> I'm doing this in a virtualenv, but that's one extra complication :P
20:31:31  <andythenorth> avoids worries about installing crap though
20:32:00  <milek7>
20:32:11  <glx> and I don't see bundle rule in makefile
20:32:44  * andythenorth considers making a graphviz of local python 
20:32:46  <frosch123> cxfreeze puts all stuff into a directory
20:32:59  <frosch123> or it used to do so :p
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20:33:34  <frosch123> contents should be the files listed in the paste above
20:33:39  <LordAro> glx: should have a bundle "rule"
20:33:54  <LordAro> you shouldn't need to install it directly while building it...
20:34:05  * andythenorth has 6 buildout pythons, 1 apple python, and a double-click installed python when buildout stopped working
20:35:06  <glx> <-- no bundle rule
20:35:46  <LordAro> a bundle rule, not the bundle rule :p
20:35:51  <frosch123> <- oh, my history says there are two commands to run
20:36:00  <LordAro> at least run --help-commands...
20:36:02  <frosch123> i guess the first one builds the c extension module
20:37:14  <LordAro>
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20:37:39  <andythenorth> I am getting a type error
20:37:54  <andythenorth> TypeError: unorderable types: NoneType() >= str()
20:38:11  <andythenorth> from python build -c mingw32
20:38:19  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro opened pull request #7782: Codechange: Improve NetworkAddress usage
20:38:26  <andythenorth> this is sometimes an artefact of python 2 -> 3 comparisons
20:38:59  <LordAro> i can imagine that wouldn't work well if you're not currently on windows
20:39:25  <glx> ok "python.exe .\ build" did something
20:39:33  <andythenorth> cx-freeze claims to be cross platform
20:39:35  <andythenorth> but eh
20:40:04  <LordAro> cython's a bit nicer to use
20:40:09  <LordAro> but if you're already using it..
20:40:35  <frosch123> andythenorth: no, they always only build for the host system
20:40:42  <frosch123> that's why devzone used wine
20:41:13  <andythenorth> ok makes sense
20:41:25  <andythenorth> I could break out virtualbox :P
20:41:32  <andythenorth> it just got slower and slower recently :P
20:48:13  <LordAro> there we go, bdist creates a nice tar archive
20:48:30  * LordAro might have also rewritten in the process
20:49:31  <frosch123> is it complete though'?
20:50:05  <LordAro> well it didn't create an executable, because i was missing cx_freeze
20:50:20  <LordAro> but i don't think the was written in a way that would've done that anyway
20:51:15  <glx> I see a nmlc.exe in the zip
20:51:23  <glx> (using bdist)
20:51:47  <frosch123> is there also a python.dll, and a nml_lz77.pyd ?
20:51:58  <LordAro> python.dll is always dynamically linked
20:52:24  <LordAro> windows dll path rubbishness means that it'll be copied with the extension
20:52:41  <frosch123> afaik the "pyd" are also all "dll"s
20:52:54  <frosch123> just following the python dlopen spec
20:53:04  <frosch123> or whatever "dlopen" is called on windows
20:53:04  <LordAro> yeah
20:56:01  <LordAro> ooh, that's a bit more interesting
20:56:52  * andythenorth wonders where to document nml releasing
20:56:57  <LordAro> compiled nml
20:57:59  <andythenorth> there's a docs folder, but it's mostly been moved to wiki
20:58:08  <andythenorth>
20:58:14  <andythenorth>
20:58:21  <frosch123> COMPILING
20:58:44  <andythenorth> wfm
20:58:45  <frosch123> LordAro: that's a lot of files
20:58:57  <LordAro> it is
21:00:11  <LordAro> here's the uncompiled version, though it appears to lack the nmlc script
21:00:22  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on pull request #7782: Codechange: Improve NetworkAddress usage
21:01:06  <andythenorth> :)
21:04:36  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on pull request #7782: Codechange: Improve NetworkAddress usage
21:05:28  <frosch123> LordAro: nielsm: src/network/core is also used in the masterserver
21:05:45  <frosch123> if you change the api, please make sure that also the masterserver compiles
21:08:00  <glx> of course I need an admin powershell for pip
21:08:34  <LordAro> only to install globally
21:08:38  <LordAro> --user or whatever should be fine
21:08:50  <glx> I'm installing cx-Freeze :)
21:10:27  <glx>     error: file 'C:\Users\Loïc\AppData\Local\Temp\pip-install-xanxs8q0\cx-Freeze\cxfreeze-postinstall' does not exist
21:10:27  <glx>     ----------------------------------------
21:10:31  <glx> nice
21:10:32  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth updated pull request #7781: Doc: convert some docs to markdown
21:10:53  <glx> and how am I supposed to install a broken package ?
21:11:16  <LordAro> by googling the error message :p
21:11:25  <LordAro> indicates that cx_freeze 6 fixed the issue?
21:11:35  <andythenorth> standard python packaging :P
21:11:37  <andythenorth> google, hope
21:14:18  <glx> hmm but it is cx_freeze 6
21:14:35  <glx> maybe it's because I use python 3.8
21:15:23  <andythenorth>
21:17:43  <LordAro> my rewritten
21:17:55  <LordAro> compiles into a package on windows (probably), doesn't bother on Linux
21:18:15  <glx> ok using the alternate method it's installed
21:18:59  <LordAro> am happy to PR that, but someone should probably test it on Windows first..
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21:21:26  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth updated pull request #7781: Doc: convert some docs to markdown
21:21:52  * andythenorth 'mistakes were made'
21:22:34  <andythenorth> I have no idea how to update my local branch to match the remote PR
21:22:48  <andythenorth> so I dropped the commit, and cp the 2 remote commits :P
21:23:16  <LordAro> oh dear
21:23:55  <andythenorth> I mean, it worked, but it's probably clown shoes
21:25:30  <glx> usually I git pull, git reset then git pull again
21:25:54  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on pull request #7781: Doc: convert some docs to markdown
21:26:24  <andythenorth> I was suprised that strgen is still built
21:26:53  <glx> of course it is, the game needs it
21:27:19  * andythenorth is endlessly surprised
21:27:23  <andythenorth> every day is exciting
21:27:36  <glx> you know, all the "generating XXX language"
21:27:43  <glx> that's strgen :)
21:28:12  <andythenorth> ok so now I need to amend c21e0953694b4b0cc5d52ccddfb0cc1bbd611522
21:28:18  * andythenorth reading git docs
21:28:34  <glx> git rebase -i HEAD~2
21:28:47  <glx> replace pick with edit
21:28:48  <andythenorth> super
21:29:14  <glx> do the changes, git add/rm whatever, git commit --amend
21:29:26  <glx> then git rebase --continue
21:30:38  <glx> note that git mv already does add/rm IIRC
21:32:38  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth updated pull request #7781: Doc: convert some docs to markdown
21:34:27  <andythenorth> done done
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21:50:55  * andythenorth wonders if people use
21:55:33  <glx> LordAro: your version seems to work
21:56:57  <andythenorth> \o/
21:57:03  <glx> hmm or maybe not
21:57:42  <frosch123> andythenorth: noai. and are useful
21:57:44  <glx>
21:57:57  <frosch123> but in 11 years i only remember one looknig at ottd doxygen
21:58:08  <andythenorth> I am not proposing killing it :)
21:58:16  <andythenorth> just whether it should be linked from github docs
21:58:29  <andythenorth> we have this scattered collection of dev docs :)
21:58:36  <andythenorth> project is quite confusing to approach :)
21:58:43  <glx> a link doesn't cost anything
21:58:53  <andythenorth> it will under new EU rules
21:59:00  <andythenorth> 0.02 Eurocents or something
21:59:03  <frosch123> glx: pip instal pillow
21:59:12  <glx> oh
21:59:32  <frosch123> oh, wait, i always confuse ply and pil
21:59:36  <frosch123> ply is still called ply
22:00:24  <glx> anyway I think I need ply and pillow according to the readme
22:00:45  <andythenorth> I did think of trying to package a deps installer, with pipenv
22:00:50  <andythenorth> but there are only x hours per day
22:00:55  <andythenorth> and some are needed for playing Blitz
22:00:59  <andythenorth> and sleeping
22:03:21  <glx> pillow link in readme is 404 ;)
22:04:51  <glx> "We don’t recommend trying to build on Windows. It is a maze of twisty passages, mostly dead ends." <-- oh that's nice
22:05:10  <andythenorth>
22:05:22  <glx> yes I found the page :)
22:07:02  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] andythenorth opened pull request #50: Doc: fix 404 on pillow install instructions link
22:07:27  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] LordAro approved pull request #50: Doc: fix 404 on pillow install instructions link
22:07:36  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] LordAro merged pull request #50: Doc: fix 404 on pillow install instructions link
22:07:39  <andythenorth> ta
22:08:53  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] LordAro merged pull request #27: Doc/Fix: Update the stated version requirements
22:13:04  <glx> I'm in a state where I think python is a mess to use ;)
22:13:47  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] LordAro opened pull request #51: Codechange: Rewrite
22:13:51  <LordAro> glx: oh no
22:14:09  <andythenorth> glx: python is a mess to use
22:14:20  <andythenorth> you have to develop strategies :P
22:14:31  <glx> pip install pillow should work, but it fails beacause it wants to build the package
22:14:39  <glx> and needs a bunch of deps
22:14:47  <LordAro>
22:15:08  <LordAro> glx: if you can, always rely on any system package if you can
22:15:14  <LordAro> ...if you can
22:15:28  <LordAro> otherwise, there's usually ways to force pip to not try to compile
22:16:08  * andythenorth mumbles
22:16:22  <andythenorth> if you isolate all your pythons, and all your projects
22:16:25  <andythenorth> then mostly it's fine
22:16:26  <LordAro> --only-binary :all:
22:16:31  <LordAro> andythenorth: that too
22:16:35  <LordAro> depends on the project
22:16:36  <andythenorth> as long as setuptools doesn't break, yet again, upstream
22:16:39  <LordAro> and system
22:17:01  <andythenorth> nearly all of my recent python failures are due to Apple breaking the Xcode libs
22:17:07  <andythenorth> or setuptools
22:17:36  <andythenorth> the usual suspects are things like libxml :P
22:17:38  <andythenorth> and libjpeg
22:18:35  <glx> it's zlib
22:18:45  <glx> but I guess it's not the only one
22:19:49  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Wirdal commented on issue #7592: Road vehicles don't balance between multiple loading bays
22:25:20  <milek7> LordAro: seems to work
22:25:22  <milek7>
22:25:59  <LordAro> :)
22:26:55  <glx> does it run ?
22:27:17  <glx> because I'm still fighting with pillow
22:27:27  <milek7> yes
22:27:41  <glx> so 3.8 is really the issue
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22:36:51  <glx> after some workaround (downloading a prebuilt package) pillow is installed
22:38:07  <glx> and nmlc works
22:44:20  <FLHerne> peter1138: The "Support for Not Road Types" commit breaks `nmlc --nml=out.nml example_road_vehicle.grf`
22:44:44  <peter1138> That's nice.
22:45:13  <glx> how ?
22:45:38  <FLHerne> `[expression.identifier_to_print(roadtype.value) for roadtype in self.roadtype_list]` crashes when the roadtype table contains a list
22:46:10  <FLHerne> i.e. `RED_TEST: [RED_, REDR, ROAD]`
22:46:54  <FLHerne> I tried to debug it, but don't really know how roadtypes are supposed to work yet
22:47:28  * FLHerne should RTFM, but not at midnight :P
22:48:34  <FLHerne> (I rebased a couple of local commits onto master, found it crashed now, and couldn't figure out why until I realised it was crashing already)
22:53:15  *** frosch123 has quit IRC
22:57:48  <glx> <-- ok nmlc.exe half works
22:58:19  <glx> it runs, I can do "nmlc --help", but something is still wrong
22:59:16  <LordAro> glx: time.clock() was removed in 3.8
22:59:21  <glx> oh
22:59:31  <LordAro>
23:01:12  <LordAro> process_time instead, i think
23:03:50  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] glx22 opened issue #52: nmlc doesn't work with python 3.8
23:04:16  <glx> I don't really know python coding :)
23:22:20  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] glx22 opened pull request #53: Fix #52: time.clock() has been removed in python 3.8
23:22:51  <glx> but that's work for me
23:23:34  <glx> I'll let you submit your change
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23:35:45  <andythenorth> FLHerne: GL RTFM :)
23:35:54  <andythenorth> I haven't written it yet
23:36:45  <andythenorth> also it wasn't crashing for me?
23:36:46  <supermop_Home> andy's up late
23:36:57  <andythenorth> wife's away, can't sleep
23:37:11  <supermop_Home> I usually sleep more in that case
23:41:38  <andythenorth> FLHerne: confirmed, that fails
23:41:47  <andythenorth> can't see a useful line number in the error message
23:42:02  <andythenorth> OTOH I am not wearing my glasses :P
23:44:24  * andythenorth figures there must be an nml output module that needs updating
23:44:36  <andythenorth> the grf and nfo output works
23:45:26  <glx> D:\developpement\GitHub\glx22\nml\examples\road_vehicle [actions +2 ~1 -0 !]> nmlc.exe --nml=out.nml .\example_road_vehicle.grf
23:45:26  <glx> nmlc ERROR: Input file is not utf-8 encoded: 'utf-8' codec can't decode byte 0x82 in position 5: invalid start byte
23:45:34  <glx> that's what I get
23:45:50  <glx> a totally different error
23:47:36  <andythenorth> well yes
23:47:43  <andythenorth> but nmlc can't treat a grf as input :)
23:47:49  <andythenorth> so that command flherne uses is odd :)
23:48:08  <andythenorth> but  nmlc --nml=out.nml example_road_vehicle.nml should be broken for you
23:48:10  <andythenorth> differently
23:48:37  <andythenorth> should be something like
23:48:41  <andythenorth> "Error:    (TypeError) "expected string or bytes-like object"."
23:48:48  <glx> yup
23:49:01  <glx> Location: File "D:\developpement\GitHub\glx22\nml\nml\expression\", line 47, in identifier_to_print
23:49:06  <andythenorth> yup
23:49:21  <glx> without --nml it works
23:49:35  <andythenorth> nmlc example_road_vehicle.nml  should work fine
23:49:40  <glx> it does
23:49:43  <andythenorth> and --nfo=foo.nfo should work
23:50:26  <andythenorth> --verbosity=4 isn't getting me any more useful info
23:50:40  <andythenorth> anyway, way to late for this :)
23:55:26  * andythenorth explores
23:55:42  <andythenorth> ret += ', '.join([expression.identifier_to_print(roadtype.value) for roadtype in self.roadtype_list])
23:55:49  <andythenorth> is a straight copy from railtypes
23:55:58  <andythenorth> which aren't reported as failing on lists
23:56:58  <andythenorth> oh railtypes fails :)
23:57:04  <andythenorth> just tested it with iron horse
23:57:17  <andythenorth> I wonder if nmlc writing nml has been broken for some time
23:58:54  <andythenorth> also, bedtime, srsly
23:58:58  *** andythenorth has quit IRC

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