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08:17:18  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on issue #7592: Road vehicles don't balance between multiple loading bays
08:20:57  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Eddi-z commented on issue #7592: Road vehicles don't balance between multiple loading bays
08:21:56  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] nielsmh commented on pull request #53: Fix #52: time.clock() has been removed in python 3.8
08:24:21  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] nielsmh commented on pull request #51: Codechange: Rewrite
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08:39:07  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] andythenorth commented on pull request #51: Codechange: Rewrite
08:43:51  <andythenorth> hmm I just do this
08:43:57  <andythenorth> print(format((time() - start), '.2f') + 's')
08:44:19  <andythenorth> nml isn't doing anything clever with the time, I just ran it and checked
08:45:28  <andythenorth> how precise does it need to be? :P
08:46:47  <andythenorth> in fact, time() is more accurate for my purpose, because I want to know how long I'm waiting in total
09:01:21  <nielsm> datetime.time() you mean? problem with that is system clock adjustments
09:01:29  <nielsm> it's not really suitable for stopwatch use
09:01:56  <nielsm> time.monotonic() is a reliable real time stopwatch
09:04:25  <andythenorth> based on principle of not changing behaviour, I'm inclined to improve process_time
09:04:28  <andythenorth> approve *
09:04:57  <andythenorth> approve *
09:05:12  <andythenorth> assuming this was originally used to benchmark process timings
09:05:13  <nielsm> yeah it doesn't really matter for this use
09:05:29  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] andythenorth closed issue #52: nmlc doesn't work with python 3.8
09:05:34  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] andythenorth merged pull request #53: Fix #52: time.clock() has been removed in python 3.8
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09:13:21  * andythenorth BBL
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09:50:18  <andythenorth_> “OpenTTD directories” could move from to own file in /docs?
09:58:25  <frosch123> readme section 4.2 is the most referenced part of all
09:58:36  <frosch123> everyone downloading mods manually asks about that
09:59:06  <frosch123> it may even be worth to fake the numbering so that 4.2 remains :p
09:59:29  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth_: very -1
10:02:00  <andythenorth_> Noted frosch123
10:02:21  <andythenorth_> Seems bizarrely upside down to me
10:02:45  <andythenorth_> but I am not the audience
10:05:15  <andythenorth_> Begs the question, why are they manually downloading mods? :D
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10:07:46  <Eddi|zuHause> ... because still some people refuse the idea of bananas?
10:07:58  <Eddi|zuHause> ... both on the uploader and the downloader side
10:08:35  <andythenorth_> bizarre world
10:09:12  <nielsm> we could add an "install mod" feature in the UI where you can select a file from whereever and have it auto-copied to the appropriate location
10:09:28  <planetmaker> -1 on moving dir info out of readme. That's one of the readme purposes
10:09:31  <nielsm> (that's a lot of work)
10:09:57  <andythenorth_> probably not worth it just to make readme shorter :)
10:09:57  <Eddi|zuHause> nielsm: would probably also require some sort of unpacker
10:09:58  <nielsm> could even define something like .ottdmod file extension
10:10:02  <planetmaker> what will be gained by putting it in a separate file. "easier to find" is not one of them.
10:10:06  <planetmaker> readme is visible ingame
10:10:14  <planetmaker> and google doesn't care
10:10:29  <planetmaker> anyone who looks at doc dir... can look at any file. Fewer is easier to grep
10:11:54  <andythenorth_> Hmm iOS really doesn’t work for anything other than using the phone
10:12:03  * andythenorth_ digresses
10:12:26  <nielsm> where do you find the readme file in-game?
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10:14:40  <andythenorth_> Frigging ios kicked me again
10:14:58  <planetmaker> he, indeed... it is *not*... could have sworn it were, as we show every readme, except our own
10:15:08  <andythenorth_> I only have this crap because all my kids photos are on Apple
10:15:20  * andythenorth_ grumbles
10:15:52  <Eddi|zuHause> nielsm: there should be a readme button on the intro menu
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10:16:48  <planetmaker> but there actually is not. But there is a completely bogus highscore table
10:18:12  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] JGRennison opened issue #7783: SDL2: Not possible to type shift-T into a edit context in multiplayer
10:18:15  <nielsm> yeah a "help" button might be good
10:18:39  <nielsm> getting a readme viewer, links to the wiki, and stuff
10:18:47  <andythenorth_> That would add an interesting dimension to the docs rewrite
10:19:01  <andythenorth_> One more context to consider :)
10:19:42  <andythenorth_> I keep talking myself out of writing a basic manual for players
10:19:58  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] JGRennison opened issue #7784: SDL2: Not possible to use the up/down keys in the console
10:20:04  <andythenorth_> Quick start guide :p
10:20:36  <andythenorth_> In .md, rendered to $whatever
10:20:49  <nielsm> also the difference between "settings" and "game options" is still weird
10:20:58  <andythenorth_> Yair
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10:21:30  <Eddi|zuHause> nielsm: but it would also be wrong to mix them
10:21:36  <nielsm> the newgrf and ai/gs configuration windows could maybe have a button to open the appropriate folder in the OS file browser (if the OS supports it)
10:22:38  <andythenorth_> Most of options should be gone
10:22:49  <andythenorth_> Split to settings or newgame
10:23:12  <andythenorth_> Town names, drive side etc are newgame concerns
10:24:04  <nielsm> baseset choices should be labeled "configuration" rather than "options" imo, and should ideally also allow selecting driver via in-game UI
10:24:05  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth_: but things like resolution and language should not be hidden deep in some giant settings tree
10:24:15  <nielsm> (of course changing driver still requires restarting the game)
10:24:24  <frosch123> andythenorth_: there was some german dude who wrote a manual and published it by print-on-demand, he sold 3 books or so
10:24:35  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] JGRennison opened issue #7785: SDL2: Version 2.0.5 is required, but configure script only checks for 2.0
10:24:44  <andythenorth_> Eddi I’m inclined to +1 on those
10:25:26  <frosch123> resolution is such a weird setting. you only need fullscreen/windowed
10:25:34  <frosch123> what is resolution useful for?
10:25:49  <andythenorth_> My OS has a button for fullscreen
10:26:14  <frosch123> well, i also only use maximized, never fullscreen
10:26:22  <andythenorth_> same
10:26:36  <andythenorth_> Fullscreen tends to crash macs
10:27:03  <andythenorth_> $everything tends to crash macs these days
10:27:34  <andythenorth_> Terminal decline of the platform, just awaiting a usable alternative
10:27:45  <andythenorth_> Is beOS finished yet.
10:27:48  <andythenorth_> ?
10:30:47  <andythenorth_> In fact Apple has been dying for the last 20 years, wish it would get it over with :p
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10:31:43  <frosch123> 20 or 35?
10:32:12  <frosch123> i thought beos/haiku was atari stuff?
10:32:15  <andythenorth_> I didn’t own one until 1998
10:32:45  <andythenorth_> At the time the mac magazines were including beOS on cover CDs
10:32:53  <frosch123> i think i decided before 1998 that all mac users are weird, and i do not want to belong into that social group
10:33:00  <andythenorth_> Because Apple was dead
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10:37:28  <andythenorth_> Anyway, readme
10:37:36  <andythenorth_> I guess my main observation
10:38:36  <andythenorth_> Looking at other projects, they don’t try and cover everything in README whilst also omitting some fundamentals
10:39:01  <andythenorth_> And also strewing random docs across multiple locations
10:39:44  <andythenorth_> The readme is bad because it attempts to patch over that a docs approach was never figured out happily
10:40:02  <andythenorth_> and because stuff and things
10:40:13  * andythenorth_ biab 
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10:43:19  <nielsm> can TT-Forums be called "official forums"?
10:43:41  <nielsm> and should it be linked from inside the game?
10:45:07  <frosch123> it is linked from the homepage
10:45:25  <frosch123> how could it be more official?
10:59:26  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] glx22 commented on pull request #51: Codechange: Rewrite
11:10:33  <Guest5517> frosch123: Could have a separate file, and change section 4.2 to "read this: <link>"?
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11:12:12  <andythenorth> frosch123: proof of 4.2? :D
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11:17:22  <nielsm>
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11:17:25  <nielsm> something like that maybe?
11:19:25  <andythenorth> nielsm: :D
11:19:38  <planetmaker> <nielsm> also the difference between "settings" and "game options" is still weird <--- I am of the opinion for long that it should be consolidated into one - at least on the surface
11:20:18  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: i'm of the very opposite opinion
11:20:35  <Eddi|zuHause> internally it could be merged, but on the UI side, separation is better
11:20:45  <Eddi|zuHause> the settings tree gets borderline unusable
11:21:10  <Eddi|zuHause> for a new user it's just massively intimidating
11:21:13  <planetmaker> No. If you want to change stuff, it's good to have one place to go.
11:21:32  <planetmaker> Of course the UI settings have a separate tab or so, so they are prominently visible
11:21:41  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but that implies you already know it's a setting at all
11:21:44  <nielsm> I agree that the settings tree is bad usability
11:21:48  <Eddi|zuHause> and you know how to look for it
11:21:52  <andythenorth> FWIW I was of the impression that forums were no longer official
11:22:08  <andythenorth> and I think it's better that way
11:22:34  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, if you have like 'load game, settings, and help' in the main menu: where do you go and change resolution? Anyone would go the right place
11:22:48  <planetmaker> as opposed to now where you also have options, and newgrfs, and ai, and scripts...
11:23:21  <andythenorth> I wrote this for forums in my draft
11:23:33  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: a person who is looking for resolution won't klick on AI settings
11:24:20  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: a person who doesn't know AI settings are even a thing wouldn't click on settings and scroll through 1000s of unrelated settings to find the ai settings
11:24:23  <planetmaker> but a graphics setting
11:24:40  <planetmaker> you however totally miss the point :)
11:24:58  <planetmaker> of course not ai. But there's at least options, and settings. And what's the other stuff?
11:25:00  <Eddi|zuHause> no, i don't, i just think your point is the wrong point
11:25:20  <planetmaker> Most games have like settings -> audio, graphics / video, controls
11:25:30  <planetmaker> and maybe then also mods, and other game settings
11:25:49  <planetmaker> none have the detail level we offer usually :P
11:26:05  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, and someone decided that tabs for the various different setting categories are bad, and introduced the tree
11:26:28  <planetmaker> IMHO this is mixing different discussions:
11:26:29  <Eddi|zuHause> ... and i think shoving more and more into that tree is the wrong idea
11:26:39  <planetmaker> * consolidating all settings to one place from which to access them
11:26:46  <planetmaker> * how to present the settings
11:27:10  <Eddi|zuHause> those are not different points
11:27:19  <planetmaker> one place trumps IMHO that a tree is possibly not the best. But having totally different concepts is worse than one concept
11:27:22  <Eddi|zuHause> just different viewing directions on the same point
11:27:46  <andythenorth> hmm
11:28:03  <Eddi|zuHause> there's settings with a gameplay effect -> settings, there's settings without a gameplay effect -> game options
11:28:04  <andythenorth> by a quick count, there are over 100 settings in settings
11:28:16  <andythenorth> adding 11 more is marginal
11:28:26  <andythenorth> whereas having 2 places is significant
11:28:34  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, not quite. It's not implemented such at all currently. And options and settings... is rather synonymous
11:28:46  <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, gtg
11:28:49  <planetmaker> in our case options is w/o gameplay effect. Except drive side
11:28:57  <planetmaker> so it's... weired however one puts it
11:29:01  <andythenorth> 'Game options' is broken anyway
11:29:28  <planetmaker> yes.
11:29:50  <andythenorth> load/9521/game_options.png
11:29:54  <andythenorth>
11:30:08  <andythenorth> doesn't fit, can't be resized
11:30:09  <frosch123> andythenorth: the *nice* thing about the community sites is that they are so political :)
11:30:17  <Eddi|zuHause> ok, let's put it this way (naming aside) game options -> things that are likely locale/os-specific, settings -> things that are platform-independent
11:30:19  <planetmaker> oh, and town names :D
11:30:38  <andythenorth> I would consolidate the options, then work on the tree being more usable
11:30:44  <andythenorth> but I thought we decided that years ago :)
11:30:45  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, that *would* be one way one could separate it, yes. But that clearly is not the case
11:30:48  <planetmaker> and never was
11:31:06  <frosch123> about settings: imho the tree should contain *all* settings, and then there should be a second gui "basic settings" duplicating stuff like "language"
11:31:07  <planetmaker> and the distinction is not self-explanatory either
11:31:11  <Eddi|zuHause> i never claimed that
11:31:19  <andythenorth> frosch123: there's a lot less tt-forums whining about how awful OpenTTD developers are since all developers quit
11:31:28  <Eddi|zuHause> i just said that joining them and mushing all together is a bad idea
11:31:30  <frosch123> actually, not all settings, all except mapgen
11:31:47  <planetmaker> he @ andy
11:31:49  <andythenorth> mapgen is a separate project
11:31:55  <andythenorth> imho
11:32:02  <frosch123> andythenorth: <- i meant the reddit vs other goal servers war
11:32:29  <planetmaker> UI settings; mapgen and new game settings; ingame(?) settings
11:32:34  <planetmaker> what other is there?
11:32:41  * andythenorth sticks to the line that OpenTTD does not have official forums
11:32:44  <frosch123> some would be offended if reddit was linked as general info site :p
11:32:47  <planetmaker> control?
11:32:54  <andythenorth> Github, #OpenTTD
11:32:58  <andythenorth> end of officialness
11:33:31  <andythenorth> I will say though, reddit openttd is cute
11:33:34  <frosch123> planetmaker:  ai/gs/grf belong to mapgen?
11:33:35  <andythenorth> I am considering joining
11:33:43  <planetmaker> @frosch123, yes, IMHO
11:33:56  <andythenorth> meh, I am confused about README
11:34:10  <andythenorth> TB suggestion was to rewrite it for casual github visitors
11:34:30  <andythenorth> but it strikes me that a casual GH visitor is in entirely the wrong place
11:34:44  <andythenorth> unless we think GH is where the website should be (totally possible)
11:35:06  <planetmaker> @andythenorth, what is the actual aim of a re-write? what flaws need to be addressed?
11:35:33  <frosch123> anyway, i agree with nielsm. when i look at the two modern games i play regulary, the main gui has maybe 2 buttons to start/load a game, and like 6 buttons to various websites
11:35:40  <planetmaker> if we want (more) documentation on GH (yes, possible), it probably should be outside the readme w/o reducing it much
11:35:52  <frosch123> ottd intro gui is very different
11:35:58  <planetmaker> it's dated :)
11:36:18  <andythenorth> TB: some more serious thought, what would really help for OpenTTD, I think, is if the in the root folder was meant for people visiting
11:36:19  <andythenorth> and in docs/ or something we can put one which is meant for bundling
11:36:24  * andythenorth quoting
11:36:31  <andythenorth> then there are lots of other TB thoughts
11:36:47  <andythenorth> my actual goal isn't rewriting README
11:37:03  <andythenorth> it's cleaning up proper domain for our different types of info
11:38:28  <planetmaker> and is reasonably clear
11:39:07  <andythenorth> +1
11:39:23  <andythenorth> eddi's point that the tree is confusing stands though
11:40:01  <planetmaker> I don't disagree there completely. Yet in lack of an actual improvement proposal... I'm not sure how that brings forward a discussion
11:40:54  <planetmaker> The underlaying problem is that we have about a zillion settings - more than one can reasonably present in many easy-to-overlook ways
11:41:22  <frosch123> the tree is the only viable solution for the advanced settings. there is nothing wrong with a second gui duplicating the basic settings
11:41:36  <frosch123> just that everyone will disagree what settings would be the basic ones :p
11:41:43  <planetmaker> it's so many you *have* to use some hirarchical way to present them - unless you want to completely remove them from UI which is not sensible for many either. We have the basic/adv/expert for a reason
11:41:56  <planetmaker> hehe, yes
11:42:13  <planetmaker> as usual you nailed it
11:42:26  <planetmaker> we should hire you as game designer
11:42:40  <planetmaker> oh, wait... :P
11:43:12  <planetmaker> (just to be sure: there was no irony here)
11:44:05  <andythenorth> if only we could have intrusive player monitoring
11:44:11  <andythenorth> then we could use statistics :P
11:44:25  <andythenorth> consider that irony :)
11:46:06  <andythenorth> hmm, why did I hate the wiki so much?
11:46:39  <LordAro> out of date, for the most part
11:46:49  <planetmaker> is also surprisingly clear... even for the amount of settings presented in the respective details
11:47:12  <andythenorth> LordAro: oh yes that
11:47:23  <andythenorth> I think for gameplay the wiki is super
11:47:33  <andythenorth> it's only the development section that makes me twitch
11:47:43  <andythenorth>
11:48:50  * andythenorth looks at
11:49:27  <planetmaker> hm, looks like an interesting tool :)
11:50:00  <LordAro> oh, the development section is even more out of date than the rest of it
11:50:05  <LordAro> pandoc has its uses
11:50:38  <LordAro> though it concerns me that you brought it up right after the wiki...
11:50:51  <andythenorth> well
11:51:18  <andythenorth> I am sorta kinda hoping to move nml docs to md, preferably automated
11:51:28  <planetmaker> hehe, I didn't want to mention it, LordAro :)
11:51:34  <andythenorth> whether we should have md development docs for OpenTTD is a different question
11:51:40  <andythenorth> I have no strong opinion on it
11:51:44  <planetmaker> andythenorth, you mean... the one from wiki?
11:52:00  <andythenorth> yes
11:52:27  <planetmaker> what is the benefit? would it be more current?
11:52:42  <andythenorth> it would be helpful when submitting PRs
11:52:46  <andythenorth> they would travel with docs
11:52:59  <andythenorth> i.e. docs would be required as part of PR
11:53:12  <LordAro> non-automated docs have just as much chance of becoming outdated as anything else
11:53:20  <andythenorth> recently nml PR have fallen into a hole where docs don't exist
11:53:28  <andythenorth> so nobody can write test cases
11:53:32  <nielsm>  that's at least something...
11:53:39  <andythenorth> but because there are no test cases, the PR can't be approved
11:53:39  <nielsm> though markdown doesn't look great this way
11:53:42  <planetmaker> as do obviously the grfspec docs of OpenTTD itself
11:53:48  <planetmaker> re roadtypes or so
11:53:57  <andythenorth> and because the PR is not approved, the docs can't be written
11:54:02  <andythenorth> it's quite silly
11:54:11  <planetmaker> which PR?
11:54:13  <andythenorth> docs with the project is entirely conventiional
11:54:39  <andythenorth> 16-cargo industry, and NRT are the recent examples
11:54:47  <andythenorth> but NML development is just basically unpleasant
11:54:50  <andythenorth> and nobody wants to do it
11:55:02  <planetmaker> point is, currently the NML docs are somewhat in sync with the grfspec, share a lot of info... moving all that into the repo... yes, fine
11:55:21  <andythenorth> nfo docs would have to stay in wiki
11:55:30  <andythenorth> nml isn't nfo :)
11:55:52  <planetmaker> why would they stay in wiki? grfspecs of OpenTTD are documented in exactly the same manner: only if s/o feels like
11:56:03  <planetmaker> it's 100% identical problem
11:56:05  <andythenorth> hmm yes
11:56:13  * andythenorth is now convinced
11:56:34  <planetmaker> (I don't argue you're wrong with moving specs / docs to repo) Just... asking questions :P
11:56:36  <andythenorth> ah
11:56:55  <andythenorth> should the (nfo) newgrf spec go with grfcodec, or openttd?
11:57:02  <andythenorth> strikes me it's an API in OpeNTTD
11:57:09  <planetmaker> openttd, it's its api
11:57:12  <andythenorth> +1
11:57:22  <andythenorth> this historical thing where newgrf belonged to no-one because TTDP
11:57:24  <andythenorth> is historical
11:57:32  <planetmaker> meanwhile.. yes
11:57:35  <FLHerne> andythenorth: Ah, I'd not noticed that railtypes were broken because none of the grfs I was testing with used them
11:57:45  <andythenorth> I haven't bisected FLHerne
11:57:52  <andythenorth> so I don't know if it *ever* worked
11:58:01  <FLHerne> andythenorth: I suspect it probably didn't :-/
11:58:01  <planetmaker> railtypes... broken?
11:58:05  <andythenorth> specific issue
11:58:08  <andythenorth> very specific
11:58:37  <andythenorth> compiling railtype (or roadtype) table with multiple labels in a list, using --nml=foo.nml
11:58:42  <andythenorth> fails
11:58:48  <FLHerne> planetmaker: ...if you run `nmlc --nml=out.nml` on code that uses railtype compatibility lists
11:58:49  <andythenorth> FLHerne: filing an issue? :)
11:58:53  <FLHerne> (or roadtypes now)
11:59:01  <andythenorth>
11:59:07  <FLHerne> Trying to just fix it :P
11:59:12  <andythenorth> that too
11:59:52  <andythenorth> nielsm: do you think it can url parse? :)
12:00:11  <nielsm> it'd be a lot of work to make the file viewer do markdown well
12:00:24  <andythenorth> but we can parse md to other formats...
12:00:25  <nielsm> it also has another issue: files longer than 65535 lines
12:00:30  <FLHerne> It's not blindingly obvious how to, because of the usual arbitrary-format-mutation during compilation...
12:00:37  <nielsm> such as changelog.txt
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12:00:43  <andythenorth> pagination :D
12:00:45  <FLHerne> I do find that aspect of nml really annoying
12:00:49  <planetmaker> nielsm, is that a real issue or a pathological edge case?
12:01:35  <nielsm> the scrollbar widget limits itself to UINT16_MAX positions
12:01:56  <nielsm> widget_type.h line 673
12:01:58  <LordAro> probably not terribly difficult to change the type
12:02:03  <frosch123> it's completely fine to open the docs in a browser
12:02:30  <FLHerne> Most of the compilation steps /overwrite/ the originally parsed AST in prop variables with odd bits of intermediate state
12:02:46  <frosch123> <- look at that, 7 game related buttons, 8 external links
12:02:48  <nielsm> frosch123: then we just need to make it more browser friendly than plain text is
12:02:57  <LordAro> one of the reasons the game docs weren't added to the viewer originally was that it's quite hard to work out their location when installed
12:03:09  <LordAro> they might even be gzipped
12:03:48  <frosch123> yep, linking externally is a lot easier as long as you do not move the location afterwards :p
12:04:16  <LordAro> slightly modified page on the wiki would be fine, imo
12:04:26  <LordAro> just add "update the wiki page" to the release checklist
12:04:49  <frosch123> for example: the grfcrawler search in ottd does not link diretctly to grfcrawler. there is a redirect page on
12:05:46  <andythenorth> I have been thinking a lot about the website content
12:06:01  <andythenorth> my inclination is to keep it really simple, and for almost everything, signpost elsewhere
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12:06:17  <frosch123> +1 to that
12:06:19  <andythenorth> we mostly do that already
12:06:47  <FLHerne> What's a unified word for {road, rail} ?
12:06:49  <frosch123> i suggest to delete the about page, and delete everything but info@ and translator@ from contact
12:06:49  <FLHerne> 'track'?
12:06:55  <FLHerne> Er, roadtype, railtype
12:07:13  <frosch123> FLHerne: ottd calls trains/road vehicles ground vehicles
12:07:21  <andythenorth> I think 'about' should be replaced by a 'get started'
12:07:27  <andythenorth> which should probably be directly on front page
12:08:58  <andythenorth> so I am wondering about GH root having a
12:09:13  <andythenorth> with signposts to all the various kinds of docs
12:09:21  <andythenorth> or whether that can go in CONTRIBUTING without bloating it
12:10:28  <andythenorth> can someone merge? :P
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12:35:34  <Wolf01> So, humble bundle monthly going to change (but not for current subscribers), I wanted to switch to yearly payment in january but I did it now to be sure to get the 1 free month even after the change
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13:40:58  <andythenorth> hmm, found some wiki to tidy :P
13:41:00  <andythenorth>
13:47:00  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh opened pull request #7786: Add: Help and manuals window
13:53:13  <planetmaker> nielsm, *Changelog; and... license *agreement*? Maybe just "License"?
13:53:45  <andythenorth> pandoc conversion might need...tuning :P
13:53:53  <andythenorth> conversion of
13:54:22  <planetmaker> and tt-forums is sufficiently official. It goes by as well
13:55:03  <planetmaker> (thus cannot get more official :) )
13:55:10  <andythenorth> oof :)
13:55:40  <planetmaker> But if we want to put a link, maybe we link to instead of
13:56:03  <andythenorth> I do think that some of the historical conflict in tt-forums was caused by the OpenTTD takeover
13:56:06  <andythenorth> naming no names
13:56:12  <andythenorth> I think some people felt driven out
13:56:21  <andythenorth> water under the bridge anyway
13:56:25  <andythenorth> now it's JGRPP-forums
13:56:33  <planetmaker> tt-forum is bigger than
13:56:42  <andythenorth> so I see :)
13:57:00  <planetmaker> so I actually see there little point to argue against it...
13:57:00  <glx> yeah only link to the subforum IIRC
13:57:06  <planetmaker> yep
13:57:17  <planetmaker> but that's fine for our purpose at hand, I think
13:57:28  <andythenorth> eh we could use as the link?
13:57:35  <andythenorth> quite interesting
13:57:37  <planetmaker> that's what I argue :)
13:57:56  <andythenorth> I'll amend my draft of the readme
13:57:59  <planetmaker> we could do so for like... forever
13:58:41  <planetmaker> probably at least since the last restructuring of forums
13:59:33  <andythenorth> one day we do something about Development forum :P
14:00:37  <planetmaker> which development forum?
14:00:58  <andythenorth> OpenTTD one.  We could maybe have a better sticky pointing to Github
14:01:02  <andythenorth> there is one, but it's not obvious
14:01:25  <planetmaker> was not sure you meant newgrf or openttd :)
14:01:32  <andythenorth> A single sticky like "OpenTTD development takes place on GitHub" might be better
14:02:16  <planetmaker> Well. The "wanted contributions / patches" links exactly there: to GitHub
14:02:43  <planetmaker> and the coding style... is still relevant, too. But maybe can be put in the other
14:02:43  <andythenorth> yes, just think the title could be bettter
14:02:59  <planetmaker> ok, what should it be? "Contributing" ?
14:03:56  <andythenorth> I'd be really explicit and just mention GitHub
14:04:04  <andythenorth> "Want to contribute?  Visit Github"
14:04:12  <andythenorth> or "Guide to developing for OpenTTD"
14:04:14  <planetmaker> in the title?
14:04:16  <andythenorth> yes
14:05:56  <andythenorth> I moved forums to 'official'
14:06:45  <andythenorth> oof "Pandoc has some issues that affect almost every article that it tries to parse:"
14:06:50  <andythenorth>
14:08:54  <planetmaker> ?
14:09:07  <planetmaker> and I will unsticky the coding style one
14:10:47  <andythenorth> pretty good imho
14:16:18  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh updated pull request #7786: Add: Help and manuals window
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14:26:01  <andythenorth> nielsm: does this change the goal for the readme?
14:26:17  <andythenorth> TB's suggestion was to aim it at GH visitors, but in-game is quite different :)
14:26:30  <nielsm> I don't know :)
14:26:58  * andythenorth checks out the PR
14:26:59  <nielsm> but maybe yes, since being able to view it in-game means you already have the game installed and running
14:27:00  <planetmaker> I don't think that readme should aim at like "github visitors", "ingame audience" or whomever. It's more generic than one platform IMHO
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14:29:02  <planetmaker> However I don't think it's really that much diverging or conflicting goals...
14:29:51  <andythenorth> I think the fact that it still needs to work for people offline is quite a constraint
14:30:14  <andythenorth> it's not really possible to write it like some GitHub projects do, which is a list of links with short descriptions
14:30:24  <andythenorth> it's more like a traditional readme.txt
14:30:41  <andythenorth> but readme.txt is possibly a very bad introduction to our GH project
14:30:58  <planetmaker> So... for github :)
14:31:01  * andythenorth still thinking about the problem
14:31:26  <planetmaker> btw, I don't think that "viewing ingame" is really like "offline"
14:31:48  <andythenorth> what about CD-ROM distribution?
14:31:50  <planetmaker> I really doubt that the majority of audience has no internet connetion and browser
14:32:03  <planetmaker> you mean floppy disc 5 1/4"?
14:32:20  <planetmaker> they get the XP-version :P
14:32:27  <planetmaker> without links
14:32:28  <andythenorth>
14:33:02  <andythenorth> nielsm: that is one of those features
14:33:13  <andythenorth> where when you see it
14:33:21  <andythenorth> you think "why wasn't this done before?"
14:34:02  <andythenorth> we could do with an abstraction for urls :P
14:34:19  <andythenorth> hmm actually maybe not, probably more hassle than benefit
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14:51:06  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] LordAro updated pull request #51: Codechange: Rewrite
14:59:58  <nielsm> should perhaps add a ToC pane to the textfile viewer to support really long files?
15:00:28  <nielsm> and use a very basic markdown-like parser to guess at the headlines
15:00:33  <andythenorth> I would sooner delegate to websites :)
15:01:23  <Eddi|zuHause> nielsm: just try parsing as markdown, and if it doesn't work, give up and draw plain text?
15:01:37  <nielsm> Eddi|zuHause: I don't mean rendering markdown
15:01:53  <nielsm> I just mean extracting headlines and showing them in a jumplist
15:02:02  <Eddi|zuHause> yes.
15:02:27  <Eddi|zuHause> you can still draw things as monospace font, even after parsing markdown stuff
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15:04:30  <FLHerne> Does this look reasonable?
15:04:51  <FLHerne> (doesn't actually fix the problem yet, but at least means it only needs fixing once...)
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15:11:33  <Eddi|zuHause> deduplicating code is always good... (haven't looked at any details, or what the actual problem is)
15:13:55  <andythenorth> idea looks sound
15:14:03  <andythenorth> I haven't read every line
15:17:11  <FLHerne> Are `feat8_prop` and `not_defined_cond` the right names?
15:17:37  <FLHerne> Hopefully I read the docs right, but they replace unlabeled hex constants so I'm not 100% sure :P
15:18:47  <andythenorth> does it work? :)
15:20:27  <andythenorth> FLHerne: the chances of getting a detailed nml review from someone who actually understands it are low :)
15:20:36  <andythenorth> if the tests pass, and all relevant examples build
15:20:42  <andythenorth> and if you've been really careful
15:20:49  <andythenorth> it's 'probably fine'
15:21:03  <Eddi|zuHause> FLHerne: what's a "not_defined_cond"?
15:21:18  <andythenorth> the only way nml quality is going to improve is if some people start poking it, with the risk of breaking things
15:21:27  <andythenorth> but if it breaks in prod, we can just revert and release again
15:24:12  <FLHerne> Eddi|zuHause:
15:25:09  <Eddi|zuHause> FLHerne: then maybe "cond_tracktype_not_defined"?
15:26:00  <FLHerne> Right, that seems more readable
15:27:08  <Eddi|zuHause> FLHerne: is there precedence for the other condition type?
15:27:11  <Eddi|zuHause> *s
15:28:15  <FLHerne> Eddi|zuHause: They're there already, in the duplicated versions
15:28:24  <FLHerne> Eddi|zuHause: (added by NRT)
15:28:44  <andythenorth> the NRT support was copy-paste cargo cult
15:28:46  <andythenorth> FWIW
15:28:46  <FLHerne> I only have to give it a name because previously each version has its own magic number
15:29:09  <FLHerne> You didn't need to tell me that :P
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16:02:47  <andythenorth> I don't have Windows to test the cx-freeze stuff
16:03:02  <glx> I tested, it works
16:05:04  <andythenorth> works for me on mac also
16:05:38  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] andythenorth commented on pull request #51: Codechange: Rewrite
16:05:43  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] andythenorth merged pull request #51: Codechange: Rewrite
16:05:55  <LordAro> oh no, now i'm an NML contributor
16:06:14  <andythenorth> so does that answer the Windows part of this ticket?
16:06:41  <andythenorth> is there a final set of instructions I can paste in?
16:06:53  <glx> I can continue my testing on :)
16:07:03  <andythenorth> :D
16:07:17  <andythenorth> then you can get it to publish to bundles :P
16:07:26  <andythenorth>
16:07:40  <LordAro> neat
16:07:56  <glx> probably needs some secrets to be set in the project settings
16:08:08  <andythenorth> so are the instructions just the two last commands from frosch?
16:08:17  <andythenorth> obvs. can't test for myself :P
16:08:23  <Wolf01> andythenorth: got the liebherr. Curses and swearing various gods to apply the discount with the new system. :P
16:08:33  <andythenorth> ouch
16:08:38  <andythenorth> let me know how you find it
16:08:48  <andythenorth> I think my Lego days might be over
16:09:28  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] andythenorth commented on issue #42: Document how to release nmlc, including building a windows binary
16:09:55  <glx> it's even simpler now, it's just "python bdist"
16:10:10  <glx> and you get a .zip in dist
16:10:13  <andythenorth> LordAro: go on, press the green button :)
16:10:25  <LordAro> glx: should make a requirements.txt file, will simplify the dependency install
16:10:49  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro approved pull request #7781: Doc: convert some docs to markdown
16:10:54  <LordAro> sure why not
16:11:00  <glx> requirements depend on platform
16:11:03  <andythenorth> pipenv :P
16:11:05  <Wolf01> <andythenorth> let me know how you find it <- I don't think I'll build it for the next 5 years, I still have to build the bucket wheel and the rough terrain crane XD
16:11:14  <glx> cx-freeze is needed only for windows
16:11:24  <andythenorth> I built the B model for the bucket wheel, not buying any more big lego
16:11:31  <andythenorth> only bought that because the kids really wanted it
16:11:44  <LordAro> glx:
16:12:11  <LordAro> we wanted to avoid squashing #7781, right?
16:12:47  <glx> the rename then edit ?
16:12:48  <glx> yes
16:12:57  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro merged pull request #7781: Doc: convert some docs to markdown
16:13:01  <andythenorth> thx
16:13:30  <andythenorth> there are some obs files I didn't convert
16:13:33  <andythenorth> and friends
16:13:42  <andythenorth> happy to, if it's worth it
16:14:17  <andythenorth> just has a lot of weird semi-colons and stuff, so I didn't
16:14:40  <andythenorth> my assumption was that's the file format
16:14:48  <LordAro> that's ini comments
16:15:01  <LordAro> it's an example file, not a description
16:15:22  <LordAro> obs_example.ini might be a better name
16:15:52  <andythenorth> give them a dir? or keep docs flat?
16:16:03  <andythenorth> I would like to move some wiki docs into GH /docs
16:16:07  <andythenorth> not all, but a few
16:16:37  <Eddi|zuHause> LordAro: i don't think it should be called ".ini" when the resulting file doesn't end in ".ini" either
16:16:44  <andythenorth> shall I rename '' :D
16:16:48  <andythenorth> it's quite shouty
16:16:48  <LordAro> Eddi|zuHause: ...that would make sense, yes
16:17:06  <andythenorth> ?
16:17:45  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: -1
16:18:00  <Eddi|zuHause> filename should be descriptive
16:18:12  <andythenorth> ok
16:18:27  <andythenorth> and if I consolidate other legacy lang file info into there?
16:18:35  * andythenorth wonders if there's any point to that
16:18:59  <andythenorth>
16:19:29  <andythenorth>
16:20:02  <frosch123> link to eints
16:20:09  <frosch123> it has the most up-to-date docs about lang files
16:20:12  <frosch123> (i think)
16:20:12  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: so you want to move out compile stuff from the readme, to then merge other stuff into the compile stuff?
16:20:19  <Eddi|zuHause> that doesn't make much sense
16:20:32  <andythenorth> it's about the balance between how many docs are in /docs
16:20:35  <andythenorth> and how long each doc is
16:20:40  <andythenorth> and how general or specific
16:21:02  <andythenorth> all I want is it to be more canonical and have a structure
16:21:44  <andythenorth> I think the correct thing is just to drop the HOWTO from the name
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16:28:22  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth opened pull request #7787: Doc: rename
16:28:38  <andythenorth> git web UI is quite nice for docs edits
16:28:46  <andythenorth> suits my taste more than wiki
16:33:53  <glx> obs.ini.example ?
16:39:54  <glx> <-- almost works
16:40:14  <glx> (and I know what fails)
16:40:24  <LordAro> nice
16:40:34  <glx> eol stuff as always
16:40:42  <LordAro> ofc
16:41:14  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro approved pull request #7787: Doc: rename
16:41:20  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro merged pull request #7787: Doc: rename
16:41:55  <LordAro> andythenorth: trouble with GH web UI is that you always end up creating a branch in the repo, not in your fork
16:42:01  <LordAro> which is a bit irritating
16:42:27  <glx> GH web ui works like that
16:43:25  <glx> but we could enable auto delete branch on merge
16:43:36  <LordAro> could do
16:44:20  <glx> but auto delete could be annoying too (for people wanting to keep the branch in their repo)
16:44:55  <glx> even if I don't find a use case for that
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16:47:15  <milek7>
16:47:19  <milek7> this needs update probably?
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16:53:36  <planetmaker> indeed
16:57:30  <andythenorth> LordAro: how about a long-running docs branch? o_O
16:57:34  <andythenorth> dunno if that works
17:04:36  <andythenorth> planetmaker: is it possible that you know how to release nml? o_O
17:04:41  <andythenorth> if that's not lost knowledge :)
17:10:34  <Eddi|zuHause> concerning the settings tree: what about if the "basic" settings are a different more newbie-friendly overwiew, and the tree-view gets enabled for the more advanced settings for easier searching?
17:11:02  <Eddi|zuHause> i believe VLC does something like that
17:12:41  <milek7> why even there is this weird 'options' 'settings' split
17:12:48  <milek7> historical reasons?
17:14:24  <Eddi|zuHause> milek7: partly
17:15:21  <Eddi|zuHause> milek7: we already merged the historical difficulty and "patch settings"
17:15:57  <Eddi|zuHause> milek7: but afair the game options were of a slightly different quality, which didn't fit neatly into the other settings
17:17:18  <glx> <-- it finally works
17:17:46  <glx> it's just a regression workflow but it's a good start
17:18:31  <andythenorth> :)
17:18:49  <andythenorth> newgrf builds in 2020 :)
17:19:09  <andythenorth> I have FIRS building on Azure, and it works fine, but Azure is like being punched in the face with a cold sponge
17:19:54  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 commented on pull request #7786: Add: Help and manuals window
17:22:46  <frosch123> glx: nice, it even built the extension
17:23:25  <andythenorth> nielsm: I am about to branch for converting known_bugs.txt to .md, does that mess up your PR? :P
17:23:31  <frosch123> oh, wait, i was looking at ubuntu
17:24:09  <nielsm> andythenorth: not much, if you format it well it'll mean less work :)
17:24:23  <nielsm> since currently my ToC parser for known-bugs.txt is broken
17:24:27  <frosch123> not quite sure, but i think win does not build the extension module
17:24:58  <andythenorth> the current known_bugs.txt is an unusual indented format
17:25:17  <andythenorth> I think a heading per bug, followed by plain body copy :P
17:25:44  <andythenorth> unusual / unfamiliar /s :P
17:26:19  <nielsm>
17:29:16  <frosch123> glx: <- is something like that available?
17:29:50  <andythenorth> nielsm: maybe we should write a chapter based manual :D
17:29:54  <andythenorth> ...later :P
17:31:03  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh updated pull request #7786: Add: Help and manuals window
17:33:13  <glx> hmm I remember seeing it build the extension locally
17:34:52  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 commented on issue #7613: Generating too many news messages at once crashes the game.
17:35:30  <glx> oh my bad, I should use build not build_exe
17:35:47  <andythenorth> nielsm: does your viewer care about 80 char line limit?
17:36:06  * andythenorth never got the memo about 80 char, it's a long time since VT220
17:37:17  <nielsm> the textfile viewer can wrap but my jumplist doesn't handle that properly
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17:44:01  <andythenorth>
17:44:13  <andythenorth> do we want me to link the #nnnn items?
17:45:14  <andythenorth> probably should eh
17:45:20  <nielsm> yeah since it's possible
17:45:47  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] DorpsGek pushed 1 commits to master
17:45:47  <DorpsGek_III>   - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
18:02:29  <andythenorth> nielsm:
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18:23:25  <nielsm> hmm... for use with a viewer that supports markdown links properly that would probably be the best formatting yes, but if the viewer (as in my PR currently) doesn't format links then those end up as very long lines
18:23:43  <nielsm> though I'd really prefer to fix the viewer :)
18:25:44  <planetmaker> is there a C++ library for displaying markup? I'd very much presume 'yes' :)
18:26:46  <nielsm> I'm not sure if we can use a straight up display library, at least not without some heavy integration work with the current UI framework
18:27:03  <nielsm> but something to parse markdown to some semi-structured stuff would work
18:28:52  <nielsm> hm, <regex> is C++11, I presume that means it's okay to use?
18:30:45  <frosch123> i would still prefer just opening something in a web browser
18:31:22  <nielsm> then let's add something that translates markdown to html to the build process
18:32:58  <frosch123> why does it need to be a local file?
18:33:51  <nielsm> otherwise the version needs to know how to produce the correct url to its manuals
18:34:09  <andythenorth> why not just have make run a text parser in $scriptlanguage
18:34:22  <nielsm> (if you ignore the question of whether offline machines should be allowed documentation access)
18:34:29  <andythenorth> in newgrf docs, I parse md to multiple formats
18:34:34  <andythenorth> parse / render
18:34:58  <frosch123> andythenorth: yet another build-dep. python and more
18:35:00  <planetmaker> hm, there's a difference between "should" and "is" :)
18:35:14  <planetmaker> and yes... probably right: why not use a browser. Everyone has one
18:35:33  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on pull request #7788: Doc: Convert known_bugs.txt to markdown format
18:35:35  <frosch123> just yesterday someone ranted at cppcon to not include unnecessariy doc generation in builds
18:35:45  <andythenorth> what if your connection is down?
18:36:07  <planetmaker> if you're outside Germany, that's unlikely :P
18:36:09  * andythenorth isn't very concerned, playing OpenTTD is not exactly critical
18:36:58  <frosch123> if you live offline, you can probably also read unformatted txt
18:37:03  <andythenorth> LordAro: GH links back out again then? :P
18:37:18  <andythenorth> it's really unclear what the best thing to do is for docs
18:37:24  <frosch123> otherwise you would have to consider bundling the wiki tutorial into the downloads
18:37:28  <andythenorth> I lost the markdown argument sometime a while ago :P
18:38:53  <andythenorth> is .md intended to be human readable, or is it source?
18:38:58  <andythenorth> I am a bit unclear
18:39:04  <andythenorth> I always use html for docs if I can :P
18:39:07  <andythenorth> but that was vetoed
18:39:29  <andythenorth> I distrust pseudo-human-readable formats, because they never work
18:40:37  <andythenorth> context is
18:44:02  <frosch123> it's rendered as html, what do you want more?
18:44:48  <nielsm> yes when viewed on github
18:45:01  <andythenorth> appropros of
18:45:08  <andythenorth> I am on the fence
18:45:12  <frosch123> well, who do you target? a server admin without gui? a player on a desktop pc?
18:45:21  <andythenorth> this is my question too
18:45:30  <andythenorth> I don't know who the audience is supposed to be :)
18:45:34  <andythenorth> is it Richard Stallman?
18:45:37  <andythenorth> or my kids?
18:45:40  <andythenorth> or what :)
18:45:50  <frosch123> with .md you can catch both. the server guy can read with less or vi, and the desktop player can be linked to online docs
18:46:26  <andythenorth> the server guy has probably scripted emacs to render it all, and reformat it to a specific line length depending on day of week
18:46:47  <frosch123> readme section 4.2 (the most important part of readme) is important for people who want to copy newgrf onto their server, and for people who get alpha releases from forums or bundles.o.o
18:46:50  <nielsm> I guess you could do something like: const char README_URL[] = ""; sprintf(url, README_URL, REVISION_HASH); OpenBrowser(url);
18:47:08  <frosch123> in both cases you want to link the docs from the forums or similar
18:47:57  <planetmaker> 4.2 is the most-often asked-for section :) By a large margin
18:48:12  <planetmaker> just today I saw like "moving to new computer" in tt-f as background
18:48:36  <frosch123> planetmaker: i told andy earlier, whatever changes in the readme, the numbering for 4.2 must not change :p
18:49:22  <planetmaker> hehe :)
18:49:46  <planetmaker> keeping valid all the answers along the line of "rtfm, section 4.2" :P
18:50:55  <andythenorth> that will present an...interesting challenge :P
18:51:00  <andythenorth> given the way the .md renderer works
18:51:16  <planetmaker> Then soonish the docs in §4.2 will need to contain a sentence like "This section needs to stay §4.2 for hysterical raisons as everything links to §4.2"
18:51:20  <andythenorth> I will have to arbitrarily number preceeding sections
18:51:23  <frosch123> planetmaker: btw. i meant to ask: what to do with coop membership tickets? should we disable eints? and offer project people to convert their repo to git?
18:51:34  <andythenorth> ooh good q
18:52:28  <planetmaker> frosch123, for hosting the repositories, a github repo probably is best... I started to convert some repos... but never really finished it :D
18:52:43  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] BlackPlague666 commented on issue #7767: Large numbers of trains and signals cause low FPS
18:52:54  <planetmaker> As to compiling NewGRFs... I wish to actually get that somewhat more automated so less human admin factor is needed
18:52:59  <planetmaker> but... well... yes
18:53:16  <frosch123> planetmaker: i am not asking about the long term plan, i wonder what to do now
18:53:44  <frosch123> there are like 3 open translator tickets, but it's kind of wrong to give them access
18:54:00  <frosch123> people only want to become translators for firs, and firs translations are currently not used
18:54:08  <planetmaker> should it be wrong for translations? Ah
18:54:09  <planetmaker> hm
18:54:12  <planetmaker> why not?
18:54:19  <planetmaker> why not used? :(
18:54:31  <andythenorth> doesn't work
18:54:37  <andythenorth> TL;DR
18:54:43  <frosch123> firs is on gh, the hg repo keeps on getting some eints commits, but would require manual merge otherwise
18:54:55  <andythenorth> I think I _might_ have deleted the hg repo
18:55:12  <frosch123> all other projects on devzone are inactive as well, so there is kind of little point in devzone eints anymore
18:55:16  <andythenorth> possibly only from redmine, rather than the actual repo
18:55:23  <andythenorth> but afaict devzone eints is dead?
18:55:23  <planetmaker> right... so can we talk eints into committing to (various) GH repos?
18:55:47  <andythenorth> yes, it's likely quite more complex
18:55:53  <planetmaker> yes, you're right... mostly little point. I saw a few translation changes on a few repos... but very very few
18:56:13  <nielsm> re. - that latest screenshot really looks like an issue with the server or between client and server
18:56:27  <frosch123> planetmaker: you just need some gh bot user, like dorpsgek
18:56:52  <frosch123> and then people need to configure their gh to give push access to that one
18:56:59  <andythenorth> eh without wanting to claim anyone's time....could we publish the dev blog post?
18:57:17  <andythenorth> I doubt that I've written anything that can actually harm us
18:57:50  <andythenorth> I didn't include any malware links, not knowingly anyway
18:57:56  <andythenorth> and there's no javascript coin miner
18:59:36  <planetmaker> frosch123, so... that user needs eints access and repo access... configured on a per-project basis
19:00:04  <nielsm> that's a GH "application"
19:00:17  <nielsm> or oauth cookie
19:00:39  <nielsm> you'd give the eints instance permission to act on your behalf on the repository
19:00:46  <frosch123> planetmaker: essentially, we can setup it for firs, and assume that noone else will need it
19:01:07  <andythenorth> then I can cargo cult it :P
19:01:22  <andythenorth> presumably, whatever was done for ottd master GH is reusable?
19:01:31  <frosch123> the main thing that does not work is automatic eints setup via redmine roles
19:01:33  <andythenorth> we have translation commits?
19:01:46  <andythenorth> how do trunk translators get auth?
19:01:54  <andythenorth> oh yeah, they mail that random address :)
19:01:56  <andythenorth> I remember
19:02:26  <frosch123> andythenorth: think smaller :)
19:02:39  <frosch123> we don't need a solution that works for 300 projects
19:02:53  <andythenorth> no, but Iron Horse gets translations
19:02:54  <andythenorth> so 2
19:03:58  <planetmaker> frosch123, it actually would be nice to have a solution that works for more than just firs
19:04:09  <frosch123> planetmaker: so, suggestion would be, disable all current eints projects, and only readd firs and iron horse
19:04:10  <andythenorth> I just wondered, given that we have 1, why not make 1 n
19:04:26  <planetmaker> frosch123, but ... it would actually be nice, when the openttd translators could opt-in to also translate NewGRFS (and ai, basesets,...)
19:04:39  <andythenorth> reducing the number of things we have
19:04:40  <frosch123> sure, when there are some
19:05:02  <frosch123> i don't see the demand
19:05:15  <andythenorth> I did wonder about just saying 'send PRs' for newgrfs
19:05:34  <planetmaker> frosch123, so what solution would solve it for 2 but not for $configured others?
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19:06:01  <planetmaker> I'd find that really sad
19:06:07  <frosch123> planetmaker: manually creating checkouts on the eints vm and making andy give access for some bot
19:06:10  <andythenorth> frosch123 I could just give specific people PR rights on a branch?
19:06:11  <planetmaker> I did have this year updates for some of my newgrfs
19:06:47  <frosch123> andythenorth: making eints create prs is a lot more work, than just making eints push directly
19:06:56  <andythenorth> oh I was just going to have people do it
19:07:04  <andythenorth> as an alternative low-fi solution
19:07:08  <andythenorth> it's not ideal
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19:10:39  <planetmaker> frosch123, I'd prefer to have an app which authors can integrate in their repo. Then they can apply for eints and it will be added.
19:10:51  <planetmaker> I know... maybe it's wishful thinking :)
19:11:20  <andythenorth> I have some kind of Azure connection on my account
19:11:25  <andythenorth> and I authorise it per repo
19:11:37  <andythenorth> they have some name, like GH service or something
19:11:38  * andythenorth looks
19:11:49  <frosch123> planetmaker: <- how many of those projects are active?
19:12:06  <andythenorth> Installed GitHub Apps
19:12:20  <frosch123> which of those projects would you consider to point out to translators, who actually want someone to get their translations from bananas somewhen
19:12:35  <andythenorth>
19:12:41  <andythenorth> ^ nice, but it's engineering
19:12:52  <andythenorth> we have quite a lot of engineering already, and it only just stays alive :P
19:12:55  <frosch123> there is silicon valley on that list, i think i made the last release 5 years ago
19:13:13  <frosch123> the translations since then are only on bundles, so basically noone gets them
19:14:14  <frosch123> i think it's unfair to translators to direct their efforts to unmaintened projects
19:15:36  <planetmaker> well, ok. Let's shut it down
19:15:43  <planetmaker> :(
19:16:11  <frosch123> so: clear the list, readd gh stuff manually?
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19:17:12  <planetmaker> well, but can eints handle the git repos? I guess it can... openttd uses it after all
19:17:25  <planetmaker> so, yes, changing the repo links to github manually would work
19:17:30  <frosch123> it can already do that on devzone
19:17:33  <frosch123> skye_rails is git
19:17:42  <planetmaker> yes
19:18:16  <frosch123> so, what shall we call the user?
19:18:26  <frosch123> or should we hijack dorpsgek to also work for coop?
19:18:39  <planetmaker> what about... webster?
19:19:04  <glx> <-- funny it fails only for python 3.5
19:19:08  <andythenorth> well
19:19:11  <andythenorth> I did have
19:19:12  <frosch123> <- already exists
19:19:16  <andythenorth> some ideas....around bananas 2 :P
19:19:26  <andythenorth> where releases are automatic from translations :P
19:19:39  <andythenorth> I discovered some serious latency in releasing some translations for my grfs
19:20:06  <andythenorth> which I felt bad about :P
19:20:18  <frosch123> andythenorth: you are the only one releasing at all :p
19:20:30  <andythenorth> really?
19:20:39  <frosch123> what do you think when was the last release of opensfx and openmsx?
19:20:44  <andythenorth> my stuff gets kicked off the front page of bananas quite fast
19:20:48  <planetmaker> a decade ago :)
19:21:00  <andythenorth>
19:21:37  <andythenorth> my (no data) impression is that newgrf dev is as healthy as ever
19:21:38  <frosch123> with the exception of nutracks, none of that stuff is on devzone. and the nutrack guy is waiting for a new ssh-token to be installed on devzone
19:21:54  <frosch123> and i would rather offer them migration to gh than update the ssh key
19:22:00  * andythenorth also had a hopeful idea that bundles could die, and be handled in bananas 2 :P
19:22:07  <andythenorth> bundles should not need to exist at all, it's daft
19:22:44  <andythenorth> I mean, it's lovely, and was really useful :)
19:22:50  <planetmaker> ok, andythenorth. I shall stop the migration of stuff to a new server and spare me all that and shut down end-of-year. Got me convinced
19:22:55  <planetmaker> was that the aim?
19:23:09  <frosch123> andythenorth: around ottd 0.6 newgrf were made by artists, from 1.0 to 1.2 stuff moved to coders using vcs, now stuff is back to artists with no clue about vcs
19:23:20  <andythenorth> a few have github
19:23:44  <frosch123> planetmaker: focus on stuff that you would use yourself
19:23:54  <andythenorth> +1
19:24:07  <andythenorth> coop was great, when there were more people helping
19:24:16  <andythenorth> now it's just an unfair maintenance burden on 2 people
19:24:59  <frosch123> planetmaker: my probably flawed impression is that 90% of industry sets are forks for firs, but noone uses a vcs
19:25:20  <planetmaker> dunno about industry sets newer than FIRS :P
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19:25:55  <planetmaker> well, if people nowadays need convincing to use VCS... they are mostly a lost cause
19:25:58  <planetmaker> IMHO
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19:26:21  <planetmaker> I'm reasonably shocked time and again by some of my collegues...
19:26:52  <frosch123> <- i think andy is the only vcs user on that page
19:27:59  <planetmaker> looking through the list of topics on the first page: I concur
19:29:29  <planetmaker> right... ok, so what shall be done: Migrate all repositories to github.
19:29:38  <planetmaker> make devzone read-only
19:30:17  <planetmaker> And create anew from scratch whatever suits me :P
19:30:23  <planetmaker> as my pet toys :P
19:30:37  <planetmaker> we keep eints running for those who like... how do we manage accounts?
19:31:21  <frosch123> 1. make devzone readonly, 2. backup all repositories to gh as closed repositories, 3. offer people to transfer ownership of their repositories to their user, if they want to, 4. setup eints for <5 projects
19:31:40  <planetmaker> what you mean with 'closed repositories'?
19:31:49  <andythenorth> I have no particular goal for coop, but what I really like about it....was that it was truly cooperative
19:32:15  <glx> archive repo
19:32:16  <frosch123> planetmaker: like openttd-deprecated, it has a "archived" thingie next to it
19:32:22  <andythenorth> I seem to recall that there were as many as 10-12 people all working in similar direction on coop projects
19:32:23  <planetmaker> ah, k
19:32:45  <andythenorth> it was a nice time
19:33:02  <planetmaker> yes... there were a lot of people doing stuff
19:33:07  <planetmaker> quite active times
19:33:50  <planetmaker> like 3 people caring for the server who were constantly around. And many more writing NewGRFs and making use of the server
19:34:19  <planetmaker> similar actually on the OpenTTD side... it kinda all shrank by 2/3
19:36:11  <frosch123> planetmaker: you already moved projects to gh/openttdcoop. how did you select those projects?
19:36:19  <frosch123> just so i can figure out which ones still need moving
19:36:40  <andythenorth> eh, yes peak commits are very much lower
19:36:49  <planetmaker> some randomly, then started alphabetically from top
19:36:53  <frosch123> oh, also, i moved all projects that i considered "mine" to my account, not to openttdcoop
19:36:58  <andythenorth> same
19:37:03  <andythenorth> mine are all on GH
19:37:17  <andythenorth> on my account
19:38:25  <frosch123> ok, i'll see whether i can get that done next week
19:38:59  <frosch123> s/next/this/
19:39:16  <andythenorth> are issues moving?
19:39:37  <planetmaker> just for curiosity, what are your pet projects, frosch123 ? :)
19:40:14  <frosch123> andythenorth: no
19:40:27  <frosch123> planetmaker: what do you mean?
19:40:54  <planetmaker> those which you moved... I guess I can just check GH :P
19:41:07  <frosch123> just those were i made 99% of commits
19:41:20  <frosch123> +h
19:42:27  <frosch123> i have no projects where i contributed 50% or something, either "most" or "barely anything"
19:42:30  <planetmaker> backdraw of GH: you don't find openttd-related repos any longer, if you don't know what exactly
19:43:38  <frosch123> i would go to bananas, get the name, then google github+name
19:43:40  <planetmaker> and thus... actually I cannot look-up on GH :P
19:44:01  <planetmaker> failed for you
19:44:05  <frosch123> i do the same for mods of other games
19:45:00  <frosch123> planetmaker: ok, it's hard for "silicon valley", but the rest should work
19:45:51  <frosch123> hmm, i see, google cannot handle CamelCase that well
19:46:07  <planetmaker> really? I don't see that working for OpenTTD
19:46:08  <frosch123> "github debugvehicles" works, "github debug vehicles" does not
19:46:33  <planetmaker> yes, that's what I mean. You only find stuff where you know very exactly what to look for
19:47:32  <frosch123> ah, well, bananas2 will provide source links
19:48:55  <andythenorth> extend action 14 :P
19:49:00  <frosch123> it gets better if you also add "openttd" to the search term
19:49:07  <andythenorth> in the openttd commits, it's interesting to de-overly some people :P
19:49:17  <andythenorth> the huge early spike is significantly Rubi
19:49:21  <andythenorth> frosch is fairly constant
19:49:33  <andythenorth> peter goes through a bunch of intense commits then a break
19:50:20  <frosch123> andythenorth: i figured that contributors are randomly missing from the stats
19:50:30  <andythenorth> did rubi commit a lot of other people's patches also?
19:50:44  <andythenorth> I seem to remember something in early logs and forums :P
19:50:57  <frosch123> yes, rubi did almost everything
19:51:12  <frosch123> took, patches, refactored them and later maintained them
19:51:19  <andythenorth> maintainer burnout :P
19:51:20  <andythenorth> oof
19:51:33  <frosch123> he is the only reason why there was a low-mark of 14 open bug reports around 1.0
19:51:40  <andythenorth> ha
19:51:53  <andythenorth> anyway, I'm not sure how to express my feelings on coop accurately :P
19:52:14  <andythenorth> coop was great, then things started to break that I can't fix, so it was less great
19:52:32  <andythenorth> but moving everything to non-shared, non-repeatable stuff seems less good
19:52:41  <andythenorth> but it's JFDI and I don't have to wait on other people
19:53:14  <andythenorth> of all the things that kill me in open source, it's the async nature of getting work done :P
19:53:43  <andythenorth> but I miss coop happy times
19:53:57  <frosch123> well, blame nml :p grf development moved back to little-tech-safy people, so vcs , coop and gh workflows are too advanced
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19:54:06  <andythenorth> ha ha
19:54:18  <andythenorth> I never wanted to adopt nml, I nearly rage quit when FIRS was converted to it
19:54:28  <andythenorth> in retrospect...that was silly :)
19:54:32  <frosch123> it was very different when yexo, ammler and planetmaker were coders for 90% of grfs, herding dozens of artists
19:55:10  <andythenorth> #openttdcoop.devzone used to be busier than #openttd
19:55:20  <glx> next step will be a GUI to generate nml ;)
19:55:27  <andythenorth> then yexo, foobar, terkhen all got jobs etc
19:55:28  <frosch123> oh my... i just remembered ammler writing nfo grfs via shell scripts
19:55:42  <andythenorth> you don't remember CPP variadic macros?
19:55:50  <andythenorth> a thing that should never have been
19:56:05  <andythenorth> glx: a GUI would be full circle
19:56:19  <andythenorth> I built a web-based 'make me a ships grf' tool
19:56:39  <frosch123> <- oi, there are even shell scripts generating nml
19:56:41  <planetmaker> Maybe... is the way to go: request a somewhat standard entry point or configuration for NewGRFs and then people can build it w/o much setting up anything and getting a return result
19:58:14  <glx> github actions can do that
19:58:16  <frosch123> planetmaker: for what use case? people know how to build grfs locally
19:58:20  <planetmaker> yes... yexo and rubi left gaps behind
19:58:38  <planetmaker> for those who don't :P
19:59:31  <glx> create a workflow file in a newgrf repo, then any one can copy it to their personnal repo
19:59:35  <frosch123> devzone consists of repo, eints, and bundles. repo should go to gh, eints is doable on small scale and sufficient, i just have no idea about bundles
19:59:59  <frosch123> though i guess bundles also works on small scale
20:00:45  <frosch123> glx: wasn't the problem with hosting the artefacts?
20:01:39  <glx> the problem is to pass artefacts between workflow runs
20:02:09  <glx> but in this case they just need to stay in the workflow
20:04:07  <glx> hmm I still don't understand why build_ext fails for python 3.5
20:04:22  <glx> I tried ugrading setup tools, still fail
20:04:41  <LordAro> link the results?
20:04:48  <andythenorth> this is published from Azure to AWS
20:05:03  <andythenorth> it's only a basic proof of concept, it does nothing properly
20:05:06  <glx>
20:05:12  <LordAro> frosch123: andythenorth: it would be really neat to rework eints into a GH app
20:05:14  <andythenorth> but passing artefacts is fine
20:05:22  <andythenorth> the problem is creds
20:05:49  <andythenorth> for Azure I give it a GH service (revokable) and AWS service point (revokable)
20:06:06  <glx> <-- 3.6 is ok
20:06:23  <andythenorth> storing, e.g. bundles ssh (sftp, scp) creds directly in people's Azure accounts is a big non-non-non
20:06:25  <LordAro> glx: that feels familiar to me. could be related to how python3.5 that they're using was compiled
20:06:36  <andythenorth> and that's even if I could find the keystore tool, which exists somewhere
20:06:38  <frosch123> LordAro: what does that actually mean? gh authentication for translators?
20:06:50  <frosch123> or is there more gh hosted stuff i do not know about
20:07:11  <andythenorth> frosch123: it would be similar to the way I've given Azure access to GH
20:07:24  <frosch123> so, just oauth2 stuff
20:07:29  <andythenorth> basically
20:07:40  <glx> LordAro: but VC++ 14+ is installed
20:07:42  <andythenorth> there's a key, and so on
20:07:53  <frosch123> i have that 50% done, but did not figure out a test strategy
20:07:58  <andythenorth> and it's managed in GH as a provider, not in the consuming app
20:08:07  <glx> unless they want exactly 14.0
20:08:15  <LordAro> frosch123: i *think* you could enable eints on a repo, and then translators would then use some eints frontend (coop or otherwise) to submit translations, and eints could commit them to the repo
20:08:20  <LordAro> glx: possible
20:08:31  <andythenorth> how about a totally upside down idea
20:08:50  <andythenorth> (multiple apps behind the scenes, but call it bananas 2 from the user point of view)
20:08:52  <LordAro> glx: trouble is, GH actions is too new, can't find other people's solutions :p
20:08:56  <andythenorth> bananas 2 adds a project as a remote
20:09:05  <frosch123> glx: there is some --compiler=... parameter to
20:09:11  <andythenorth> bananas 2 has a dedicated translations repo, with a branch for each project
20:09:21  <frosch123> i have no idea how and whether setuptools autodetects compilers
20:09:28  <andythenorth> bananas 2 never commits to the project for translations
20:09:49  <andythenorth> when there's a push to the project, bananas 2 pulls the remote and rebases the local translations branch
20:10:05  <LordAro> seems to me like more output is required first anyway
20:10:12  <andythenorth> then, if there are changes > threshold, it publishes a trivial version bump on the content service
20:10:18  <LordAro> (and preferrably it should fail when the extension build fails)
20:10:29  <glx> hmm I have an idea
20:10:33  <LordAro> (that's probably the "optional" in
20:11:16  <frosch123> i can only find examples with --compiler=mingw32
20:12:15  <glx> maybe it relies on environment for python 3.5
20:12:27  <glx> let's try setting that
20:12:28  <andythenorth> oof, if the project included docs, bananas 2 could then publish those, using GitHub Pages, and it's weird headless docs branch, with a path like firs/version/docs, ecs/version/docs
20:12:38  <andythenorth> wow
20:12:54  <andythenorth> one uber repo for content
20:13:02  * andythenorth wonders about the malware exploit funtimes
20:14:17  <LordAro> suggests that 3.5+ all use MSVC 14.x
20:14:29  <LordAro> are you sure it's installed for the 3.5 image?
20:17:07  <glx> C:\Program Files (x86)\Microsoft Visual Studio19\Enterprise\VC\Tools\MSVC.23.28105\bin\HostX86\x64\link.exe
20:17:13  <glx> that's what 3.6 uses
20:17:25  <glx> but maybe I should try x86 instead
20:25:36  <LordAro> probably won't exist, VS compiler paths are weird
20:30:41  <glx> yup for 3.6 and 3.7 no issue with both x86 and x64, 3.5 fails for both
20:30:42  <glx>
20:30:57  <glx> and I "broke" some stuff ;)
20:34:05  <frosch123> he, so for 3.7 it works on windows, but not on ubuntu x86
20:34:42  <glx> x86 is windows only it seems
20:36:33  <frosch123> ah, now the 3.5 windows build contains an error about msvc 14 missing
20:36:49  <frosch123> but well, if 3.7 works :)
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20:48:58  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/website] andythenorth opened pull request #107: Add: more screenshots
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20:49:53  <andythenorth> o_O
20:49:58  <andythenorth> website release?
20:52:22  <LordAro> probably
20:52:59  <andythenorth> LordAro: you have some unreviewed PRs from April
20:53:02  <andythenorth> I am looking
20:53:03  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/website] planetmaker approved pull request #107: Add: more screenshots
20:53:34  <LordAro> andythenorth: on the website? they're incomplete, or need splitting up, or something
20:53:47  <andythenorth>
20:53:50  <LordAro> unfortunately the other person interested in doing website restructuring got bored
20:54:42  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/website] LordAro approved pull request #105: Drop supported operating systems list from 'About'
20:54:48  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/website] LordAro merged pull request #105: Drop supported operating systems list from 'About'
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20:56:49  <andythenorth> I deliberately didn't review that PR soz
20:57:08  <andythenorth> html style is a thing that is prone to opinion-stated-as-fact
20:57:19  <LordAro> mm
20:57:19  <andythenorth> or even misunderstanding-stated-as-fact :P
20:57:28  <andythenorth> and it's too much like my day job to trade it back and forth
20:57:39  <andythenorth> the diff looked basically fine
20:57:55  <andythenorth> but nitpicking markup is a waste of life, either the page is valid and renders, or it isn't and doesn't
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20:59:51  <andythenorth> I was full of good intentions though :P
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21:09:08  <LordAro> andythenorth: too late now
21:09:12  <LordAro> :p
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21:09:28  <LordAro> i'm sure i'll get into another websitey mood at some point, the PRs aren't going anywhere
21:10:47  <andythenorth> if the GH docs stuff gets sorted, a new website _might_ just appear in a PR :P
21:10:55  <andythenorth> one thing at a time :P
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21:28:48  <andythenorth> shall I move code style to GH?
21:29:04  <andythenorth> most of the dev stuff could stay in wiki, it's guidance
21:29:10  <andythenorth> but code style is canonical?
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21:43:06  <LordAro> eh
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22:17:58  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] kernigh commented on issue #7648: Dead keys aren't interpreted correctly when typing accented letters (Linux)
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