Log for #openttd on 21st October 2019:
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08:38:28  <peter1138> ownCloud or NextCloud?
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08:41:39  <andythenorth> to do what?
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09:01:53  <peter1138> Which?
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09:04:40  <planetmaker> nextcloud
09:04:58  <planetmaker> it's a clear 51:49 decision :P
09:08:30  <peter1138> The ownCloud android app costs money (not much) so that's a thing going for NextCloud.
09:08:57  <peter1138> Hmm, mysqld on my NAS is too old :(
09:09:04  <peter1138> It's still called mysql for a start :p
09:09:14  <planetmaker> owncloud worked for me for years. Then I switched to nextcloud a few years ago. That also works... so cannot say negative about either really
09:14:16  <peter1138> Maybe I should see about a custom image for my NAS.
09:14:23  <peter1138> It's Linux, but something old.
09:14:39  <peter1138> Mind you, it needs to be as it's an ancient ARM system with 256MB RAM.
09:15:28  <peter1138> cd /srv/data
09:15:29  <peter1138> ls
09:15:29  <peter1138> ls -l
09:15:32  <peter1138> Woa.
09:15:40  <peter1138> The fact I continued typing.
09:16:07  <peter1138> Hmm, need to sort out the NFS mount, can't change file permissions currently, let alone ownership.
09:16:27  <peter1138>
09:16:28  <peter1138> Hmm :)
09:17:57  <andythenorth> what do those cloud things do?
09:18:06  <andythenorth> are they Dropbox, without the creepy invasive privacy issues?
09:19:38  <peter1138> Sort of.
09:19:56  * andythenorth wonders
09:20:05  <peter1138> I'd continue using Dropbox but they closed themselves off by introducing a 3 device limit.
09:20:19  <andythenorth> if we do shut down coop redmine, I have nowhere to share screenshots :P
09:20:28  <andythenorth> it's my main use for it
09:20:31  <andythenorth> imgur ew :P
09:21:40  <peter1138> Hmm, openwrt images.
09:22:35  <peter1138>
09:22:43  <peter1138> That looks like a high chance of bricking :p
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10:30:47  <andythenorth> hmm
10:38:12  * andythenorth gardening
10:39:11  <andythenorth> bunch of unlinked or empty pages here, been that way since 2007
10:39:23  <andythenorth> gonna clean up :P
10:43:04  <andythenorth> :o
10:43:10  <andythenorth> didn't know we had that :D
10:45:49  <peter1138> Is it lunch time yet?
10:49:29  <andythenorth> hope so
10:49:31  <andythenorth> I am hungry
10:49:39  <andythenorth> although there are supply problems here :(
10:49:43  <andythenorth> I didn't go to the shop
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10:52:59  <andythenorth> this nav is happier now that 40% of it isn't linking to empty pages / dead / not a link
10:53:08  <andythenorth> (right sidebar box thing)
10:54:28  <andythenorth> the sections are a bit weird, fixing
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11:10:09  <andythenorth> eh does anyone know how to wiki? :)
11:10:15  * andythenorth knows how to google :P
11:10:42  <andythenorth> and can just be consolidated to one page, with some kind of redirect for the old one
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11:51:36  <planetmaker> andythenorth, openttd wiki for screenshots ;)
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11:52:21  <andythenorth> :D
11:52:27  <planetmaker> I'm reasonably sure you can attach them to 'issues' in your respective github repo, too
11:52:40  <andythenorth> Yes
11:52:44  <andythenorth> Or forum posts
11:52:50  <andythenorth> many options :)
11:53:10  <planetmaker> yeah... somewhere in the darknet on an onion server otherwise servering grass ;)
11:53:17  <planetmaker> just to name one other :P
11:54:07  <andythenorth> ftp? :P
11:54:19  <planetmaker> that's not a place but protocol ;)
11:58:53  * andythenorth is a little puzzled, what is the purpose of the alphabetical listings here?
11:59:05  <andythenorth> is it just an artefact of wiki automagic?
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11:59:46  <planetmaker> yes. Category pages are automatically compiled
12:00:20  <planetmaker>
12:00:54  <andythenorth> thanks
12:01:33  <andythenorth> oof doesn't play nice with the dev template sidebar :)
12:01:46  <peter1138> Okay, 1pm. This is my lunch time.
12:02:01  <planetmaker> he, indeed :) bon appetit
12:02:50  <andythenorth> lunch
12:02:56  <andythenorth> jealousy
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12:21:44  <andythenorth> hurrah!
12:21:46  <andythenorth>
12:21:54  <andythenorth> I've done some stuffs
12:22:10  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] altheeagle opened issue #7789: Wrong Station is added to the Orderlist
12:22:22  <andythenorth> - gathered all the dev pages I could find, linked them from sidebar
12:22:27  <andythenorth> - redone the sidebar order
12:22:40  <andythenorth> - redirected old pages and/or marked outdated
12:22:41  <Eddi|zuHause> i've just eaten something, dunno if it was lunch
12:22:56  <andythenorth> - applied dev template to ~all dev pages
12:23:12  <andythenorth> - tidied up the intro page, it doesn't need code style linked 3 times :D
12:23:19  <andythenorth> now I want lunch :P
12:28:43  <andythenorth> page might be better without the funky table, but eh,
12:28:45  <andythenorth> not now :P
12:32:42  <peter1138> Lunch has been lunched.
12:36:18  <andythenorth> now that I've tidied it....
12:36:31  <andythenorth> is any of this actually useful (all the stuff in the sidebar) :D
12:37:23  * andythenorth thinking about how we can help newbie contributors (people who can code, but might have wtf? moment when approaching OpenTTD src)
12:41:50  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Ansbaradigeidfran commented on issue #7648: Dead keys aren't interpreted correctly when typing accented letters (Linux)
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13:53:34  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on issue #7789: Wrong Station is added to the Orderlist
13:59:00  <peter1138> Oof, known bug? o_O
13:59:54  <nielsm> yeah
14:00:05  <Eddi|zuHause> we fixed that in master
14:00:16  <nielsm> it's only present in 1.9.3
14:00:22  <nielsm> and we're probably not making a 1.9.3
14:00:27  <nielsm> 1.9.4 *
14:00:58  <nielsm> unless someone wants to devise a way to make a client-only-fixes release that's network compatible
14:01:39  <Eddi|zuHause> just silently replace the downloadable binaries with same-version ones :p
14:02:46  <Eddi|zuHause> or add another version part that will be ignored for network checks, to allow such hotfixes in the future
14:03:47  <nielsm> if we'd had a way to release client-only-fixes then 1.9.3 might not even have happened, the mac crash from bad utf8 from a server was the main reason for that imo
14:12:26  <planetmaker> I always wonder what people think when writing e-mails like "Could you please tell me if the version of Openttd 1.9.2 (or 1.9.3) is compatible with Mac OS Catalina and works in 32 bits ?". It would be faster to download and (try to) start...
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14:46:24  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Eddi-z commented on issue #7648: Dead keys aren't interpreted correctly when typing accented letters (Linux)
14:51:29  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Eddi-z commented on issue #7648: Dead keys aren't interpreted correctly when typing accented letters (Linux)
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15:21:48  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Ansbaradigeidfran closed issue #7648: Dead keys aren't interpreted correctly when typing accented letters (Linux)
15:21:48  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Ansbaradigeidfran commented on issue #7648: Dead keys aren't interpreted correctly when typing accented letters (Linux)
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15:25:43  <andythenorth> FLHerne: can you remember what approx date your Horse server game started?
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15:47:36  <FLHerne> andythenorth: I think it was 1930
15:47:43  <FLHerne> Not a very long one
15:50:01  <supermop_work> i think that's right
15:51:08  <andythenorth> hmm that invalidates my theory :P
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15:51:55  <andythenorth> I was considering deleting all of Horse before 1930, because it's boring
15:52:03  <andythenorth> and then nerfing the 1930 stuff
15:52:12  <supermop_work> eh
15:52:32  <planetmaker> he... why is the early stuff boring?
15:52:58  <andythenorth> not sure, but it is
15:53:16  <andythenorth> progression is quite hard in OpenTTD
15:53:21  <supermop_work> i usually start 1970 or 85 because i think im just going to do a quick game to test if a certain idea for a commuter line works
15:53:21  <andythenorth> there's really no scope for it
15:53:35  <supermop_work> and then get distracted by steeltown stuff
15:53:46  <supermop_work> but sometimes i start 1890s
15:54:03  <supermop_work> which i find equally fun
15:54:48  <supermop_work> there are very few pre 1900 trains in horse, but they work fine
15:55:14  <andythenorth> every game, I'm just waiting tick-tock for 1960 trains to appear
15:55:16  <supermop_work> i think the whinging you'd get removing them wouldn't be worth whqtever you think the gain would be
15:55:21  <andythenorth> the early trains are so dull
15:55:27  <supermop_work> then start in 1960
15:56:06  <supermop_work> there is always someone who wants to start with Rocket
15:56:21  <supermop_work> you basically already did the work
15:56:59  <Eddi|zuHause> [21.10.19 17:52] <andythenorth> and then nerfing the 1930 stuff <-- but wouldn't that make the problem worse?
15:57:15  <andythenorth> no, because it removes the problem by deleting it :)
15:57:40  <Eddi|zuHause> if you "nerf" the 1930 stuff, the jump in 1960 would be even higher
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15:57:58  <supermop_work> upgrading from 80kph freight to 140 kph freight is more rewarding too
15:58:23  <Eddi|zuHause> (imho, 30 years between generations is to high for me anyway, but what do i know)
15:58:28  <Eddi|zuHause> (also, gtg
15:58:47  <supermop_work> "Can't Leave Well Enough Alone" is the thenorth family motto
15:58:50  <supermop_work> ?
15:59:38  <andythenorth> just trying to address the flaws
15:59:40  <andythenorth> :P
16:01:33  <Eddi|zuHause> there's a german word for this: "Verschlimmbessern"
16:01:52  <Eddi|zuHause> roughly "in an attempt to improve things, they made it worse"
16:02:02  <andythenorth> "10 untranslatable german terms"
16:02:20  <andythenorth> I had the thought in the context of road vehicles originally
16:02:25  <andythenorth> progression is so boring
16:02:52  <andythenorth> and then if there's only one generation, it solves the daylength flaw
16:03:32  <andythenorth> progression in road vehicles is just bus -> bus -> bus -> bus
16:03:38  <andythenorth> and tram -> tram -> tram -> tram
16:03:39  <andythenorth> etc
16:03:52  <andythenorth> what's the point?
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16:04:06  <supermop_work> what's the point of any of this
16:05:50  <supermop_work> the buses out here on allen street are pretty much the same as 10 years ago
16:06:12  <supermop_work> except they got LED sign on the front instead of flip dot
16:06:20  <supermop_work> and wifi on board
16:06:28  <andythenorth> that's exactly what made me think of this
16:06:42  <andythenorth> I saw a bus on my travels
16:06:56  <andythenorth> and it looked quite cool, so I thought about drawing it in the game
16:07:21  <supermop_work> they certainly are not tearing it up at 200mph weaving through traffic
16:07:26  <andythenorth> but then I wondered how it transforms gameplay
16:07:31  <andythenorth> it's just a bus, right
16:07:34  <andythenorth> ?
16:07:48  <supermop_work> load faster, otherwise nothing
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16:08:02  <andythenorth> I'm not sure what my point is, but there will be one by the end :P
16:08:11  <andythenorth> possibly the idea is to delete all progression
16:08:16  <andythenorth> one generation of vehicles
16:08:19  <andythenorth> just play
16:08:51  <andythenorth> progression makes no sense
16:08:59  <nielsm> yeah just one generation with 250 year max age
16:09:07  <andythenorth> either play for 30-90 years with vehicles that are too weak
16:09:17  <andythenorth> or play later in game with vehicles that are pointlessly OP
16:09:21  <supermop_work> more HP, so get up to speed a tick faster
16:09:57  <supermop_work> i'm happy with a few more seats, and a fancier look
16:10:00  <andythenorth> I want to figure this out before I do anything on North American Horse
16:10:04  <nielsm> if you're playing to build a neat network, the historical progression thing just gets in the way
16:10:14  <nielsm> if you're playing for a challenge it may make sense
16:10:22  <andythenorth> US RL trains are really hard to build a tech tree for
16:10:24  <supermop_work> well NA has less progression
16:10:29  <nielsm> or if you're playing for a realistic-ish layout
16:10:33  <andythenorth> historically, US trains were stronger and faster than they are now
16:11:07  <supermop_work> not really a problem though
16:11:27  <supermop_work> the player can have Acela TGVs pulling coal if they want
16:11:54  * andythenorth wonders what UKRS2 does
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16:12:48  <FLHerne> andythenorth: I typically start my SP games, with UKRS2, about 1915 or 1920
16:12:56  <andythenorth> yeah UKRS 2 has backwards progression
16:13:02  <andythenorth> maybe that's why it's better
16:13:09  <FLHerne> They're quite nice
16:13:12  <FLHerne> Backwards?
16:13:44  <andythenorth> if you want to play steam, it builds up to A4 at top
16:13:54  <andythenorth> then everything is a lot weaker and slower
16:14:02  <andythenorth> then it builds up again to class 91
16:14:14  <andythenorth> it's two sets in one grf
16:14:26  <andythenorth> so you build up, then everything is nerfed, then you build up again
16:14:27  <andythenorth> interesting
16:15:50  <FLHerne> Also, the 'generations' in UKRS2, to the extent it has them, are staggered between different roles
16:15:55  <andythenorth> Horse is always just ~25% increase of HP and 10% increase of speed
16:16:27  <FLHerne> So the "new mixed-traffic engine" is fast enough to also be a light express loco at the time it comes out
16:17:02  <FLHerne> While having much more TE than the current one, and some years before the next dedicated one
16:17:24  <andythenorth> not sure I see those distinctions :)
16:17:58  <andythenorth> I would always just pick the fastest engine, up to wagon speed limit
16:18:05  <andythenorth> anything else makes for bad network flow
16:18:27  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] altheeagle commented on issue #7789: Wrong Station is added to the Orderlist
16:18:34  <andythenorth> or to put it a different way, I don't see different roles in UKRS 2
16:18:34  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] altheeagle closed issue #7789: Wrong Station is added to the Orderlist
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16:19:00  <andythenorth> maybe engines should just be universal
16:19:51  <FLHerne> andythenorth: UKRS2 has pretty restrictive wagon speed limits, so that's an important caveat :P
16:20:15  <andythenorth> I suspect that helps the sense of interesting engine choices
16:20:50  <FLHerne> andythenorth: There are always many locomotives with a top speed >= than available wagons, so it turns into a TE<->cost tradeoff
16:21:00  <andythenorth> well not really :)
16:21:05  <andythenorth> TE doesn't do anything
16:21:11  <andythenorth> HP<->cost tradeoff?
16:21:35  <Eddi|zuHause> <andythenorth> progression in road vehicles is just bus -> bus -> bus -> bus <-- the gameplay-relevant aspects of busses and trucks basically hasn't changed since the 1970s, when they approached the legal speed and size limits
16:21:36  <FLHerne> andythenorth: Maybe my having weight multipliers at 3 or something makes a difference there
16:21:56  <andythenorth> nah, TE literally makes no difference if you have enough HP / ton
16:21:59  <andythenorth> I've tested it
16:22:12  <FLHerne> andythenorth: On a dense network where trains stop at signals fairly often, TE is quite important for freight trains
16:22:20  <andythenorth> if you don't have enough HP / ton, it makes the difference between numbers like 1mph uphill and 10mph uphill
16:22:31  <andythenorth> I've tested it extensively, and read the formula
16:22:40  <andythenorth> it has negligible gameplay effect
16:22:45  <andythenorth> showing it in the buy menu is misleading :)
16:23:06  <FLHerne> Hm, I'll have to experiment
16:23:28  <andythenorth> for two given trains of same weight, with different HP and TE, the one with the higher HP is always faster uphill, unless the TE on the other is so low it's on its knees
16:24:18  <FLHerne> UKRS2 express locos do have pretty low TE
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16:24:28  <FLHerne> (the steam ones, anyway)
16:25:12  <andythenorth> ha, I thought I had a video of the tests, but apparently not
16:25:41  <FLHerne> Anyway, my original point: say genX is [75mph mixed, 90mph small express, 90mph big express], and genY is the same but [90, 110, 110]
16:25:58  <FLHerne> Not that UKRS2 is so tidy
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16:26:48  <FLHerne> But you tend to get the genY mixed loco earlier than the others, so it can keep up with existing express locos
16:27:01  <FLHerne> While being strictly better than one of them
16:28:00  <andythenorth> the intro dates are also quite distributed
16:28:03  <FLHerne> So you can use it in that role for a bit, or wait until the faster ones come along, or end up with an interestingly awkward mix of locos to upgrade later
16:28:21  <andythenorth> the lack of clear roles enables distributed intro dates
16:28:35  <andythenorth> enforcing strict roles in Horse also enforces clustered intro dates
16:28:46  <andythenorth> I've tried to mess them up a bit deliberately, and with random
16:28:55  <andythenorth> but they have to cluster, or the game breaks
16:28:57  <FLHerne> That seems right
16:29:11  <andythenorth> it's quite uninteresting :P
16:29:19  <FLHerne> I think Horse is very good as a "get out of my way, I have a network to build" set
16:29:26  <andythenorth> well it's based on NUTS :)
16:29:30  <andythenorth> only with UKRS inspired sprites
16:29:35  <FLHerne> Almost by definition, that means it can't be interesting?
16:29:55  <andythenorth> somewhat yes
16:30:03  <FLHerne> If it required enough thought/attention to be interesting, it wouldn't be out of the way
16:30:32  <andythenorth> NARS Horse could be different
16:30:56  <andythenorth> currently my plan is to add even more roles, by having hotshot freight
16:31:22  <andythenorth> but I think it might be a disaster
16:32:03  <andythenorth> if the problem is that fixed roles make a bad set, the solution is unlikely to be 'add more roles'
16:33:59  <FLHerne> Random comment: the express-passenger-speed tank engines are too faast
16:34:56  <FLHerne> They mean you can randomly mix branch- and mainline trains, and there's never a reason to run passenger trains slower than the fastest available engine
16:35:18  <FLHerne> Which is dull
16:36:59  <andythenorth> hmm
16:37:22  <andythenorth> it's notable that later in game, the railcars all run at freight speed, by design
16:38:09  <FLHerne> I kind of like that UKRS2 almost forces mixing speeds on the same tracks
16:38:23  <andythenorth> that's my thinking for NARS Horse
16:38:23  <FLHerne> I have to build freight loops and things
16:38:30  <andythenorth> UK Horse is explicitly agains that
16:38:32  <FLHerne> But that's very not out-of-the-way
16:39:08  <FLHerne> (I do wish OTTD dealt with following trains in a less-pessimal way than "dead stop")
16:39:20  <andythenorth> UK Horse really tries hard to discourage mixing freight and pax
16:39:39  <andythenorth> but if you do mix them, the freight is unrealistically fast, so it's survivable
16:40:33  <andythenorth> one option would be to dump the express tank engines
16:40:41  <andythenorth> merge them with the branch freight
16:41:06  <nielsm> if we could make path signals look more than one block ahead...
16:41:17  <nielsm> i.e. yellow signals
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16:47:44  <supermop_work> patch for that
16:48:35  <supermop_work> you think it would make everything run smoother but really it makes you aware how tiny the in game headways usually are
16:48:46  <supermop_work> plus side you get fun SPADs
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16:57:56  <andythenorth> did we dare call the addons 'mods' yet?
16:58:10  <andythenorth> as a general name for newgrf, AI, GS etc
16:58:24  * andythenorth working on
17:00:59  <FLHerne> No
17:01:26  <FLHerne> I don't think a collective term would be a good idea really
17:01:43  <FLHerne> They're such different things that it would only ever be misleading
17:02:39  <planetmaker> yet all of them are add-ons :)
17:03:16  <andythenorth> if you're new to developing for openttd
17:03:29  <andythenorth> you're not going to actively look for 'newgrf', 'nogo', 'noai'
17:03:46  <planetmaker> I think it makes sense to call add-ons add-ons. ore mods, if you want
17:10:18  <andythenorth> I added a section in the sidebar
17:10:23  <andythenorth> Content APIs (modding frameworks)
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17:14:03  <andythenorth> ok pop quiz
17:14:06  <andythenorth> you're here
17:14:41  <andythenorth> and you want to work on OpenTTD with limited prior knowledge of the project
17:14:47  <andythenorth> where do you look for some docs?
17:14:58  * andythenorth is wondering where to put links
17:15:36  <FLHerne> "Contributing to OpenTTD" seems fairly clear right at the top
17:16:44  <FLHerne> I think it could use a few links besides the "" one
17:16:59  <andythenorth> or the links go in CONTRIBUTING at least
17:17:07  <andythenorth> the wiki is not linked currently afaict
17:17:15  <FLHerne> Also, a mention that one can contribute by creating NewGRFs rather than modifying the base game?
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17:17:31  <andythenorth> plausible yes, modding frameworks are under-mentioned
17:17:36  <FLHerne> With a link to the NML spec
17:17:50  <andythenorth> quak, I concede, wiki format is generally better for OpenTTD docs frosch123
17:17:51  <FLHerne> Or the NFO spec, or both
17:18:05  <andythenorth> due to PR - approval - yak-shave - merge cycle
17:18:15  <andythenorth> and avoidance of formatting wars in the repo
17:33:38  <nielsm>  <- nope don't count on it
17:36:15  <glx> I finally uninstalled python 3.8 and installed python 3.7.4
17:36:21  <FLHerne> andythenorth: Is /everything/ relating to rail/road/tramtypes in NML copy-pasted in triplicate?
17:36:30  <glx> now all my pip install work flawlessly
17:36:31  <FLHerne> Or just, like, most of it :P
17:37:37  <glx> and I also found why python 3.5 could not build the extension on the VM
17:38:04  <glx> it works when using windows-2016
17:39:29  <LordAro> glx: figured it would be something like that
17:40:00  <andythenorth> FLHerne: nothing was unified, didn't even try
17:40:08  <glx> and now I'm trying pyinstaller locally, I like the idea of a self-containing exe
17:40:09  <andythenorth> it was a JFDI at the time, to make test cases
17:40:49  <glx> cx-freeze gather way too much files
17:44:20  <LordAro> glx: indeed
17:45:48  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] DorpsGek pushed 1 commits to master
17:45:48  <DorpsGek_III>   - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
17:46:22  <andythenorth> so
17:46:50  <andythenorth> did I miss any important docs from the sidebar nav?
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17:54:20  <supermop_work> now i have "I got 5 on it" stuck in my head
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18:03:06  <andythenorth> supermop_work: and now so do I :(
18:03:27  <supermop_work> grab your four let's get keyed
18:04:30  <andythenorth> probably Regulate next
18:04:45  <supermop_work> you can't be any geek off the street
18:05:05  <supermop_work> you gotta be quick with the steel if you know what I mean
18:05:10  <andythenorth> too real
18:05:15  <andythenorth> G-funk era
18:05:24  <supermop_work> step to this, i dare ya
18:08:07  <frosch123> andythenorth: so, you want to move everything to wiki now? :p
18:16:28  <andythenorth> nope
18:17:17  <andythenorth> frosch123: but do you have a link to the complaints about docs in C++ projects?
18:17:21  * andythenorth is interested
18:18:14  <frosch123> what complaints? i think i am missing context
18:18:51  <andythenorth> you mentioned some movement against generated docs (and their deps)?
18:18:55  <andythenorth> or I misunderstood :)
18:19:34  <frosch123> ah, that was some vcpkg guy at cppcon
18:19:59  <andythenorth> I found an anti-doxygen thread :P
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18:20:20  <andythenorth> "I have installed doxygen on a handful of projects. In hindsight, it was a waste of time. No one reads generated codedoc, yet everyone just read the code."
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18:21:28  <frosch123> andythenorth:
18:21:57  *** WormnestAndroid has joined #openttd
18:22:12  <frosch123> andythenorth: i used doxygen a lot at work
18:22:30  <frosch123> it's good for class hierarchies and explaining stuff to others
18:23:32  * andythenorth watching, thanks
18:23:37  <frosch123> essentially there are two use-cases for doxygen: generated docs are like slides, ide display docs on the fly in popups
18:24:06  <frosch123> in the second case you actually do not run doxygen, the ide understands doxygen syntax
18:25:23  <andythenorth> video is interesting, not a problem I will ever have directly
18:25:40  <andythenorth> but I write a couple of UI libraries which are packaged for vendoring internally at work
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18:35:38  <andythenorth> :D is this wise?
18:35:47  <andythenorth> means I can link this from wiki
18:35:57  <andythenorth> tinfoil though?
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18:42:47  <frosch123> i guess we could include those in doxygen, so they are on
18:43:07  <frosch123> hmm, otoh, that page is likely no longer generated :p
18:43:55  <milek7> doxygen for libraries is useful
18:44:04  <milek7> not so much for standalone software when you already have editor with code opened ;p
18:44:13  <frosch123> andythenorth: that htmlpriview appears very slow though
18:44:36  <andythenorth> I just distrust external services like that
18:44:41  <andythenorth> random ones
18:45:02  <frosch123> i have a browser extenstion to change mimetypes
18:45:03  <andythenorth> linking to this isn't very useful
18:45:26  <andythenorth> and landscape grid is one of the few OpenTTD docs I actually use
18:46:01  <andythenorth> it shouldn't be in wiki, and converting it to .md would be horrible
18:47:06  <andythenorth> so can doxygen include arbitrary pages?
18:48:55  <andythenorth> stack overflow says 'no' for html
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18:52:56  <milek7> doxygen docs typically contains extra info outside source in 'Detailed Description' section
18:53:07  <milek7>
18:53:31  <andythenorth> I am thinking this might be TWMTFLB :|
18:54:50  <glx> <frosch123> in the second case you actually do not run doxygen, the ide understands doxygen syntax <-- I wish MSVC could fully understand doxygen
18:57:15  * andythenorth wonders whether to improve this
18:57:21  <frosch123> andythenorth: including html in doxygen is easy
18:57:31  <andythenorth> as htmlinclude?
18:59:46  <andythenorth> hmm not sure this adds anything
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19:01:57  <frosch123> andythenorth:
19:02:07  <frosch123> htmlinclude reads stuff from the example path
19:02:52  <frosch123> i am not sure whether "." is a good idea, i.e. whether doxygen includes stuff from the exampels automatically
19:04:09  <andythenorth> does it generate valid html?
19:04:29  <andythenorth> doxygen said it might not, due to invalid element hierarchies
19:04:31  * andythenorth has no idea :P
19:05:05  <frosch123> it renders
19:05:19  <frosch123> let's see what f12 says
19:06:17  <frosch123> it puts a <title> into a <div> block, is that valid?
19:06:53  <frosch123> ah, indeed it is invalid. <div><html><head>...</head><body>
19:06:58  <frosch123> but browsers render everything :p
19:07:27  <frosch123> it just ignores <html>, <head>, <body>, and most things inside <head>
19:08:20  <frosch123> it's probably still possible to include it has a "picture" in an iframe or something
19:08:34  <andythenorth> that would work
19:08:44  <andythenorth> SO had people generating iframes with javascript
19:08:45  <andythenorth> quite evil :)
19:09:26  <andythenorth> LordAro: release? :)
19:18:07  <frosch123> hmm, the image thing is too fragile
19:18:21  <frosch123> so, htmlinclude would work
19:18:36  <frosch123> but we would have to make the included files include html themself
19:18:55  <frosch123> enoparse
19:19:08  <frosch123> i mean we need to delete <html> <head> and <body> from the html files
19:19:18  <frosch123> so they can be included in whole
19:21:38  <andythenorth> could be fine
19:21:43  <andythenorth> is it worth it?
19:22:10  <frosch123> it's more work when editing it
19:22:16  <andythenorth> I think it should be left alone
19:22:24  <frosch123> unless browsers render the missing <html> also just fine :p
19:22:41  <andythenorth> I'm trying to make the best of what we already have, rather than re-engineer it :)
19:23:06  <andythenorth> if it's fragile to include, we should just leave it alone
19:26:57  <andythenorth> hmm
19:27:11  <andythenorth> feel like some of this should be in, and the wiki page should be reduced
19:27:44  <andythenorth> I've made peace with having both wiki and GH docs :P
19:27:56  <andythenorth> but some stuff is in the wrong place :P
19:29:52  <andythenorth> specifically I would like to move this to CONTRIBUTING
19:29:56  <andythenorth> the rest is fine where it is :P
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20:07:50  <andythenorth> frosch123: did you write that ^^ ?
20:09:07  <frosch123> at some point i did
20:09:21  <frosch123> can't remember what happened before and after
20:09:26  <andythenorth> I think it still stands
20:09:44  <andythenorth> mind if I copy it for
20:09:54  <frosch123> i don't mind
20:10:32  <frosch123> but some PRs may not match it
20:10:54  <andythenorth> we can have the bunfight later
20:21:47  <andythenorth> frosch123: I'm adding a goal :P
20:21:51  <andythenorth> "- Provide a stable core for both players of the official branch, and for patchpack authors"
20:22:32  <frosch123> i am a fan of itemizations
20:22:45  <frosch123> i would add add-on developers
20:25:13  <andythenorth> already has "- Allow extending the gameplay with add-ons / mods via supported content APIs"
20:25:23  <andythenorth> but I see your point
20:29:59  <andythenorth>
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20:36:29  <frosch123> the "privacy notice" seems to be in a weird position
20:37:20  <andythenorth> it does yes
20:37:37  <andythenorth> I suppose it has to follow from license
20:37:42  <andythenorth> but I could link it
20:37:50  <andythenorth> I'll move it
20:41:23  <frosch123> i guess the "stable core for patchpacks" is a lie :p
20:41:30  <frosch123> all those c++11 migrations :)
20:42:40  <andythenorth> :P
20:42:40  <andythenorth> oof
20:42:47  <andythenorth> 'relatively stable'
20:43:09  <frosch123> [22:10] <andythenorth> we can have the bunfight later
20:43:11  <LordAro> "more stable than it would be otherwise"
20:46:35  <LordAro> "we really could do with better tests"
20:46:46  <LordAro> "but at least we have some"
20:48:12  <frosch123> did you see that factorio solved the ship-pathfinder issue?
20:48:27  <LordAro> yeah
20:48:33  <frosch123> (no ships ofc, but equivalent problem)
20:48:39  <LordAro> "areas" was one of the things that was originally suggested, iirc
20:49:05  <LordAro> turns out path cache doesn't work so well for road vehicles and sharing stations, ofc
20:49:18  <LordAro> so we could reconsider
20:49:26  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth opened pull request #7790: Doc: - add official goals section, link from other se…
20:49:41  <andythenorth> ^ this is of a piece with tidying up the wiki etc
20:49:41  <milek7> factorio likely has less dynamic terrain?
20:49:55  <frosch123> iirc train yapf ignores the cache near the destination, when signals matter
20:50:03  <andythenorth> I want to reduce this to short single-paragraph answers
20:50:05  <LordAro> less dynamic, but not really to the point where they can just consider it static
20:50:11  <frosch123> rv should also ignore the cache when near the destination, so they can evaluate the occupation
20:50:14  <andythenorth> FAQ should not contain official policy / guidelines :P
20:50:34  <LordAro> frosch123: i believe that's the proposed solution that i read somewhere
20:50:37  <LordAro> seems it's not a PR
20:50:58  <frosch123> milek7: no, you can also remove water in factorio, it's equaly rare as in ottd
20:53:18  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro updated pull request #7716: Add: [Script] ScriptEventVehicleAutoReplaced.
20:53:28  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro approved pull request #7716: Add: [Script] ScriptEventVehicleAutoReplaced.
20:55:13  <LordAro> andythenorth: line split per sentence for md docs pls
20:55:28  <LordAro> makes much easier to read
20:56:01  <andythenorth> LordAro: any particular line numbers?
20:56:06  <andythenorth> I'm inclined to agree
20:56:19  <LordAro> 197 is where i thought of it, but there are a lot of them
20:56:27  <LordAro> was a TB original
20:56:43  <andythenorth> I'll see what I can do :)
20:58:18  * andythenorth wonders how that will render in some cases
20:58:33  <andythenorth> lots of very short paragraphs, where the run-on meaning might be lost between sentences :P
20:59:05  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on pull request #7717: Codechange: [OSX] Use std::unique_ptr with a custom deleter to simply…
20:59:14  <andythenorth> this will be a big diff :P
20:59:23  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on pull request #7717: Codechange: [OSX] Use std::unique_ptr with a custom deleter to simply…
20:59:48  <LordAro> andythenorth: markdown is well defined in this area - 1 line break does nothing, 2 line breaks for paragraphs
21:00:01  <andythenorth> LordAro: ok so just one newline for run-on?
21:00:05  <LordAro> yeah
21:00:08  <andythenorth> I was about to suggest that :P
21:00:11  <andythenorth> good
21:00:14  <LordAro> just to make the diff cleaner
21:00:18  <LordAro> what were you about to do? :p
21:01:24  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro approved pull request #7710: Fix: Fix bugs in airport finite state machines
21:02:30  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth updated pull request #7790: Doc: - add official goals section, link from other se…
21:02:41  <andythenorth> I was about to do 2 newlines everywhere, which was horrible
21:02:57  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro approved pull request #7699: Fix: Possible double path separator in FiosMakeFilename
21:03:02  <LordAro> andythenorth: that would be horrible, yes
21:03:15  <andythenorth> dunno if I got them all
21:03:18  <andythenorth> reading the rendered .md
21:03:29  <andythenorth> browsers should render .md :P
21:05:57  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] matthijskooijman commented on pull request #29: Add compatibility with >=pillow-6.0.0
21:07:15  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth updated pull request #7790: Doc: - add official goals section, link from other se…
21:08:13  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth updated pull request #7790: Doc: - add official goals section, link from other se…
21:08:20  <andythenorth> done :P
21:09:02  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] LordAro commented on pull request #29: Add compatibility with >=pillow-6.0.0
21:09:09  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] LordAro reopened issue #39: (AttributeError) "module 'PIL.Image' has no attribute 'VERSION'".
21:09:09  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] LordAro commented on issue #39: (AttributeError) "module 'PIL.Image' has no attribute 'VERSION'".
21:19:44  <glx> <-- I need a windows user to test the artifacts (they work me)
21:22:50  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] matthijskooijman commented on issue #39: (AttributeError) "module 'PIL.Image' has no attribute 'VERSION'".
21:24:06  <andythenorth> oof is it bedtime?
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21:24:23  <andythenorth> or do I need to make more changes to CONTRIBUTING?
21:24:46  <andythenorth> it particularly tickles me that this page does not link to
21:27:25  <andythenorth> fixed
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21:29:31  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro requested changes for pull request #7353: Feature: Measure vehicle capacity utilisation efficiency
21:30:52  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro dismissed a review for pull request #7510: Emscripten support
21:31:27  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro merged pull request #7573: Fix #7561: Remove assumption between power and cost
21:31:28  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro closed issue #7561: Fix for power/running cost sorting algorithm.
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21:46:00  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth updated pull request #7790: Doc: - add official goals section, link from other se…
21:47:34  <LordAro> oh no, a compile warning
21:47:46  <LordAro> we really should turn on -Werror for the CI
21:47:56  <LordAro> for some platforms, at least
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21:49:12  <andythenorth> I am not aiding the PR count reduction goal :P
21:49:21  <LordAro> :p
21:49:23  <andythenorth> still, it's 49, which is less than 50
21:49:28  <andythenorth> less than 50 = winning
21:49:35  <andythenorth> arbitrary goals :P
21:50:44  <milek7> -Werror means that builds would start failing with random compiler upgrades
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21:51:09  <andythenorth> probably correct, if it's only on the CI?
21:51:25  <LordAro> CI doesn't get random compiler upgrades
21:52:14  <glx> and we already know it should not be enables for macOS and linux clang :)
21:52:17  <andythenorth> ooof bedtime
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21:52:50  <glx> but the best would be an improved report from the CI
21:53:43  <LordAro> yeah, true
21:55:09  <glx> I should probably add that to
21:55:40  <glx> easier to see in
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22:15:06  <LordAro> nnyby: don't suppose you'd like to take a look at #7783, #7784 & #7785 ? :)
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22:22:19  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] ldpl opened pull request #7791: GS method to allow company to use an engine before its intro date
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