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00:02:15 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on issue #7646: Random map generation failure crashes the game (dedicated server). https://git.io/fjPBl 00:02:35 <glx> at least there's a trace now 00:07:33 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 opened pull request #7804: Fix: spelling/grammar in script_tile.hpp https://git.io/JeEOo 00:09:52 <glx> but the trace doesn't really help 00:15:58 *** HerzogDeXtEr has quit IRC 00:25:31 <glx> hmm I don't want to bruteforce a failing seed 01:00:38 <glx> ok I think I found it 01:07:34 *** Flygon has joined #openttd 01:55:29 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 opened pull request #7805: Fix #7646: incomplete cleanup for non-threaded world generation failure https://git.io/JeE3o 01:56:03 <glx> needs more work, but the crash is fixed :) 02:51:57 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 commented on pull request #7805: Fix #7646: incomplete cleanup for non-threaded world generation failure https://git.io/JeEsr 03:06:51 *** glx has quit IRC 05:51:01 *** tokai|noir has joined #openttd 05:51:01 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai|noir 05:57:57 *** tokai has quit IRC 06:01:33 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd 06:05:27 *** andythenorth is now known as Guest5978 06:05:31 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd 06:09:36 *** Guest5978 has quit IRC 06:13:20 <andythenorth> yo 06:17:37 *** andythenorth has quit IRC 06:17:54 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd 06:20:13 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth commented on issue #7799: Vehicle health indicator https://git.io/JeEk3 06:35:02 *** Progman has joined #openttd 06:36:09 <andythenorth> hmm 06:36:12 <andythenorth> this might be bad 06:36:13 <andythenorth> https://andythenorth.github.io/OpenTTD/ 06:36:16 <andythenorth> https://andythenorth.github.io/OpenTTD/docs/multiplayer.html 06:36:28 <andythenorth> https://andythenorth.github.io/OpenTTD/COMPILING.html 06:36:49 <andythenorth> https://andythenorth.github.io/OpenTTD/docs/desync.html 06:36:50 <andythenorth> etc 06:55:31 *** nielsm has joined #openttd 06:58:24 *** Progman has quit IRC 07:03:28 *** andythenorth is now known as Guest5979 07:03:29 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd 07:04:47 <andythenorth> japan eh nielsm ? 07:07:24 <nielsm> ye 07:08:32 *** Guest5979 has quit IRC 07:10:41 *** andythenorth has quit IRC 07:10:59 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd 07:19:41 *** andythenorth has quit IRC 07:19:58 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd 07:34:06 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro requested changes for pull request #7804: Fix: spelling/grammar in script_tile.hpp https://git.io/JeEn3 07:38:03 <andythenorth> oh LordAro is awake :D 07:40:45 <LordAro> o/ 07:40:50 <LordAro> :p 07:51:49 * andythenorth wonders what to do today 08:56:28 <Eddi|zuHause> the same thing we do every day? 08:56:38 <andythenorth> play Blitz? 08:57:39 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] ldpl commented on pull request #7805: Fix #7646: incomplete cleanup for non-threaded world generation failure https://git.io/JeEcG 08:58:17 <nielsm> right now mostly finishing up the vacation cage for the birds, soon need to trick them both into climbing in and stay there 09:00:08 *** HerzogDeXtEr has joined #openttd 09:02:32 <andythenorth> does someone look after them? 09:02:46 <nielsm> they'll stay with my mom 09:08:54 *** sla_ro|master has joined #openttd 09:13:00 <andythenorth> so GitHub pages can do this 09:13:01 <andythenorth> https://andythenorth.github.io/OpenTTD/ 09:13:06 <andythenorth> and https://andythenorth.github.io/OpenTTD/docs/desync.html 09:13:08 <andythenorth> etc 09:13:24 <andythenorth> every .md file gets rendered by Jekyll and a template of our choice applied 09:13:36 <andythenorth> but I think it's probably a bad idea 09:14:07 <andythenorth> (this is a one-click setting change in the GitHub UI btw, no other changes needed) 09:20:38 <LordAro> https://www.reddit.com/r/cpp/comments/dn8qrq/unproductive_challenge_longest_variable/ 09:20:43 <LordAro> andythenorth: why a bad idea? 09:26:35 <andythenorth> creates a 3rd location for docs, reduce canonical-ness 09:26:43 <andythenorth> wiki, github, github pages 09:27:28 <andythenorth> I want us to turn GH Pages on so we can serve the html landscape files though 09:27:39 <andythenorth> but maybe not with a full Jekyll theme 09:28:05 <Eddi|zuHause> convert them into .md? :p 09:28:34 <andythenorth> you can, I won't 09:28:39 <andythenorth> whitespace trauma 09:28:50 <andythenorth> pandoc.... 09:29:38 <Eddi|zuHause> why do i bother starting games that i know won't run properly? 09:36:11 <Eddi|zuHause> it's still not even made it to the main menu 09:43:37 *** sla_ro|master has quit IRC 09:44:48 *** sla_ro|master has joined #openttd 09:48:50 *** sla_ro|master has quit IRC 09:59:30 *** Tony_Pixel has joined #openttd 09:59:53 *** Tony_Pixel has quit IRC 10:02:01 *** sla_ro|master has joined #openttd 10:22:53 <andythenorth> hmm 10:22:55 <andythenorth> bored of Blitz 10:24:19 <andythenorth> is it ottd time? 10:48:28 *** sla_ro|master has quit IRC 10:51:32 <nielsm> :( I had to catch one of the birds with a net, he couldn't be convinved to get into the cage on his own 10:51:35 <nielsm> it hurts 10:57:50 *** Etua has joined #openttd 11:07:48 <andythenorth> oof 11:29:10 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: you are aware we already run GitHub Pages right? Well, we callit Jekyll, make it a docker, and run it on our own infra ... but ... it is literally the same :P Only not the place it ispublished 11:30:25 <TrueBrain> 11:26 <andythenorth> creates a 3rd location for docs, reduce canonical-ness <- the whole reasonw e have stuff like forum.openttd.org, newgrf., grfcrawler., etc etc, is to avoid that issue, while still using different places 11:30:29 <TrueBrain> it is a very easy fix 11:35:16 *** APTX_ has joined #openttd 11:35:37 *** APTX has quit IRC 11:36:01 *** frosch123 has joined #openttd 11:37:02 <andythenorth> TrueBrain: so are you +/-1 to GH Pages? I am +/-0 11:37:22 <andythenorth> this was just to get 2 html files published on the web without a weird intermediary service 11:37:26 <TrueBrain> no, I don't care about GitHub Pages one way or the other 11:37:31 <TrueBrain> I was just mentioning that your reasoning failed :D 11:37:38 <andythenorth> eh? 11:37:55 <TrueBrain> it doesn't create 3 locations for docs :) 11:38:01 <TrueBrain> we can tackle that numerous of other ways :P 11:38:14 <andythenorth> it creates github pages and github rendered markdown 11:38:18 <LordAro> 3 locations isn't the issue, it's 3 different sources 11:38:28 <andythenorth> no it's 2 sources, one rendered twice 11:38:30 <LordAro> or at least, that's what i thought andythenorth had the issue with 11:38:48 <andythenorth> the issue is 2 locations for links from the wiki, it creates confusion 11:38:53 <TrueBrain> well, seems andythenorth talks too ambigious in his complaints :D 11:39:03 <TrueBrain> 2 locations is a solvable issue 11:39:06 <andythenorth> I often omit tedious backstory 11:39:11 <andythenorth> how do you solve two locations? 11:39:17 <TrueBrain> in fact, generating HTML is a solvable issue, in many many ways :P 11:39:28 <TrueBrain> so it is easier to just say what you would like, and we make it magically happen :D 11:39:47 <andythenorth> ok 11:39:56 <andythenorth> very specifically, I would like a better story on this page https://wiki.openttd.org/Map_array_(landscape_grid) 11:40:16 <andythenorth> that is the entirety of my GH Pages question 11:40:42 <TrueBrain> do you want it on the wiki, or some location? 11:40:53 <andythenorth> the 2 linked docs *cannot* be on the wiki 11:40:57 <andythenorth> they have to travel with src 11:41:08 <TrueBrain> they CAN be on the wiki; the question more is if you want that :) 11:41:17 <andythenorth> well they cannot if we have any sense 11:41:23 <andythenorth> what's our score on sense recently? 11:41:54 <TrueBrain> well, nothing to do with sense 11:41:58 <TrueBrain> just a lack of imagination, I am afraid :) 11:42:07 <TrueBrain> we used to have more dynamic content in the wiki 11:42:12 <TrueBrain> just pages you couldn't edit via the wiki 11:42:15 <TrueBrain> but were available on the wiki 11:42:21 <TrueBrain> just a matter of perspective 11:42:22 <andythenorth> and PRs can update the wiki? o_O 11:42:31 <TrueBrain> you are jumping 11:42:40 <TrueBrain> more important question first is what the source is 11:42:50 <TrueBrain> are the landscape grids on GitHub and do they need to stay there 11:43:01 <andythenorth> we can speak only of those 2 docs, pls? 11:43:03 <TrueBrain> for example, take our NoAI API docs .. they are in the source 11:43:05 <andythenorth> ignoring all other concerns 11:43:08 <TrueBrain> yet they are not published there 11:43:10 <TrueBrain> it is like .. magic :D 11:43:17 <TrueBrain> we were? 11:43:22 <TrueBrain> where did you took a turn I did not take? 11:43:26 <andythenorth> just checking 11:43:47 <andythenorth> talking to TB is the most like a RL conversation I get in irc :P 11:43:55 <TrueBrain> ty :) 11:44:05 <andythenorth> I have a TB avatar animating in my head :P 11:44:12 <TrueBrain> that is scary :P 11:44:20 <TrueBrain> but if you have the grid in the source, so on GitHub 11:44:24 <andythenorth> especially as I have no idea what anyone looks like :P 11:44:41 <TrueBrain> in general, you can do two things: publish it on a website, like we do for many other things (API, binaries, and even our website) 11:44:51 <TrueBrain> or you can have some dynamic component fetch the source to publish the result 11:44:56 <andythenorth> ok, so my backstory: (1) grid needs updated if map array changes (2) we are -1 on auto-generating docs from src 11:44:57 <TrueBrain> in mediawiki, you can use the latter more easier than the first 11:45:14 <TrueBrain> 2) is irrelevant for this story, not? 11:45:35 <andythenorth> well if it was my project, I'd delete the html files and generate from src 11:45:36 <andythenorth> src knows the bits 11:45:40 <LordAro> is (2) correct? i would've thought we would prefer autogenerating such docs 11:45:45 <TrueBrain> okay, but you just said to scope it to the two documents :P 11:46:14 <TrueBrain> LordAro: it can be fun, to autogenerate it :D Could even detect cases where we misuse bits, if done correctly 11:46:20 <TrueBrain> but it would be a project on its own, to do so 11:47:17 <andythenorth> ok so far I see the following proposals (1) do nothing, it's fine (2) turn on GH Pages (3) make those html files appear in the wiki (4) something else? 11:47:35 *** sla_ro|master has joined #openttd 11:47:39 <TrueBrain> 2) is not a goal, it is a solution 11:47:43 <TrueBrain> so that is useless 11:47:50 <andythenorth> I don't like it for some reason 11:47:57 <andythenorth> GH Pages is cool but weird 11:47:59 <TrueBrain> it is not about liking or not liking 11:48:05 <TrueBrain> you are not solving anything by just publishing them 11:48:07 <TrueBrain> you have a goal in mind 11:48:13 <TrueBrain> "using GH Pages" is not a goal 11:48:16 <andythenorth> that's the reason then 11:48:18 <andythenorth> onwards 11:48:19 <TrueBrain> my goal is not to get in my car, my goal is to get somewhere 11:48:31 <TrueBrain> so you have a source 11:48:39 <andythenorth> we have a source 11:48:40 <TrueBrain> and you want something with it .. publish it on the wiki? is that the goal? 11:48:45 <TrueBrain> or are we solving an issue that does not exist? 11:48:52 <andythenorth> see (1) 11:49:09 <andythenorth> I want our docs to be Good Enough 11:49:13 <andythenorth> is this Good Enough? https://wiki.openttd.org/Map_array_(landscape_grid) 11:49:15 <TrueBrain> because grading GH Pages on something without that something being defined is just looking for something to do :) Fine with me btw :P 11:49:25 <TrueBrain> is our wiki good enugh? 11:49:27 <TrueBrain> (in general) 11:49:29 <andythenorth> it's better than it was 11:49:38 <TrueBrain> so if you want this in the wiki, 2 choices 11:49:40 <andythenorth> I drove a bus through the dev section 11:49:41 *** APTX has joined #openttd 11:49:46 <TrueBrain> either use a publication method like http://docs.openttd.org/ 11:49:53 <TrueBrain> or add a dynamic page that shows the HTML 11:49:56 <andythenorth> https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=58835#p1226258 11:50:26 <andythenorth> we did (me and frosch) look at adding those docs to doxygen, but it wasn't trivially done 11:50:41 <TrueBrain> you are thinking too complex :) 11:50:53 <TrueBrain> those docs on that page, are not what they look like :P 11:50:54 <andythenorth> see (1) 11:51:10 <TrueBrain> http://noai.openttd.org/api/1.9.0/ <- the banner there, is not in the source 11:51:11 <andythenorth> oh I see, you mean you have control of a webserver? :P 11:51:47 <TrueBrain> if you want a nice link to show those two grid pages, I am pretty sure we can make them 11:51:58 <andythenorth> this is like the last docs question I have btw, before the Great Readme Rewrite 11:52:15 <TrueBrain> but one can also wonder if the html file is the right source for this 11:52:21 <TrueBrain> as .. well .. updating it is kinda annoying :D 11:52:22 <andythenorth> one can, I didn't :) 11:52:29 <andythenorth> turns out rewriting README required cleaning up all the destinations for links first :D 11:52:56 <TrueBrain> basically, what I tried to say in the start of this conversation: where/how things are published, we can fix that, really, we can 11:53:01 <TrueBrain> we have been doing that for 15+ years :) 11:53:14 <TrueBrain> not much is what it seems .. we link all kind of different pieces of information together 11:53:16 <TrueBrain> that is fine 11:53:23 <TrueBrain> just state what you would like, and we make it happen :) 11:54:16 <andythenorth> I have all the power? :o 11:54:50 <andythenorth> I would like a cookie :P 11:55:23 <TrueBrain> www.amazon.com 11:55:24 <TrueBrain> there you go 11:55:26 <andythenorth> super 11:55:28 <TrueBrain> as many cookies as you would like 11:55:32 <TrueBrain> anything else sir? :D 11:55:46 <andythenorth> I would like 2 urls that the 2 html files appear on, rendered as html in the browser 11:55:56 <TrueBrain> but no, really; if you tell me that those two HTMLs stay in the source, and you want them properly in the wiki, we can make that happen 11:56:19 <andythenorth> I am happy to just keep using this https://htmlpreview.github.io/?https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/blob/master/docs/landscape.html 11:56:34 <andythenorth> but it relies on unknown 3rd party service, not usually a wise idea 11:56:41 <TrueBrain> rarely 11:56:51 <andythenorth> the result is achieved 12:00:20 <TrueBrain> https://devs.openttd.org/~truebrain/landscape/ 12:00:46 <TrueBrain> https://devs.openttd.org/~truebrain/landscape_grid/ 12:01:07 <TrueBrain> I will fix that properly some day :P 12:03:19 <TrueBrain> there, even fixed the links 12:03:31 <andythenorth> hurrah 12:04:24 <TrueBrain> https://winaero.com/blog/disable-tab-hover-cards-previews-in-google-chrome/ <- most important URL of the week .. fucking retarded functionality 12:08:19 <andythenorth> so do we actually want monthly dev posts? 12:08:31 <nielsm> they aren't really getting written 12:08:38 <andythenorth> I wonder if it's like a new year's resolution: well intended but not gonna happen 12:08:41 <nielsm> someone asked for them, we tried making them, it isn't working well on our end 12:09:11 <andythenorth> the approach we have isn't going to work, for multiple reasons 12:09:38 <andythenorth> they're over-engineered for what they are 12:09:51 <andythenorth> and open source can't deliver anything to a regular cadence 12:11:05 <andythenorth> apart from historical reasons, do we need news on the website at all? 12:11:10 <andythenorth> we could just use forums + reddit 12:12:06 <LordAro> i've never been fans of places that "out sourced" their release announcements 12:12:06 <nielsm> perhaps not, as long as there is an RSS/atom feed of releases I think it'd be fine 12:12:22 <nielsm> then the front page could also be devoted to showing the game instead of being a blog 12:12:51 <nielsm> at least, the news/blog don't need to be the 90% content element on the front page 12:13:05 <frosch123> andythenorth: for some reason i do not understand, news on the website are read by way more people than forums 12:13:09 <peter1138> Hurr 12:13:13 <peter1138> LordAro, any riding today? 12:13:21 <LordAro> peter1138: yorkshire is cold and wet 12:13:23 <LordAro> so no 12:13:26 <peter1138> Everywhere is :-) 12:13:49 <peter1138> Don't think anyone here is doing riding today. 12:14:20 <LordAro> only one rider on my strava this morning 12:14:37 *** glx has joined #openttd 12:14:37 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v glx 12:14:40 <andythenorth> nielsm: I am kinda planning to....redo the website anyway :) 12:14:52 <LordAro> ohho 12:15:11 <peter1138> Something else to not finish \o/ 12:15:25 <andythenorth> 1.0 :P 12:15:58 <andythenorth> 2.0 even :P 12:16:19 <nielsm> website 2.0? 12:16:25 <andythenorth> 1.1.16 right now 12:16:38 *** Etua has quit IRC 12:18:02 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/website] LordAro approved pull request #106: Create 2019-10-19-monthly-dev-post.md https://git.io/JeEr5 12:18:03 <andythenorth> frosch123: do you have actual numbers for forums vs website? 12:18:04 <LordAro> might as well then 12:18:21 <andythenorth> needs date changed 12:19:14 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/website] LordAro updated pull request #106: Create 2019-10-19-monthly-dev-post.md https://git.io/JeBzW 12:19:14 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/website] LordAro dismissed a review for pull request #106: Create 2019-10-19-monthly-dev-post.md https://git.io/JeEr5 12:21:05 <frosch123> andythenorth: no, but i refer to pikka's fundraiser from 5 years ago 12:23:58 <andythenorth> how did news posts get written before Jekyll? 12:24:25 <glx> php form IIRC 12:25:14 <andythenorth> did it require tag+release? 12:25:20 <frosch123> django, not php 12:26:03 <frosch123> andythenorth: how does that matter? noone liked writing release posts before either 12:26:14 <andythenorth> I just wonder if we solved the wrong problem 12:26:25 <glx> it was a dynamic site 12:26:44 <andythenorth> at least one objective for the website rewrite was to make it easier to add news posts 12:26:45 <glx> we switched to static for Jekyll 12:26:53 <glx> it's easier now 12:26:55 <andythenorth> so e.g. Kamnet etc could contribute 12:27:01 <frosch123> andythenorth: we transformed the problem from "few people can post news, but do not want to" to "many people could post news, but do not want to" 12:27:14 <andythenorth> actually I disagree 12:27:19 <andythenorth> I don't think the problem changed 12:27:23 <glx> anyone can open a PR 12:27:33 <glx> no rights needed :) 12:27:35 <andythenorth> we previously had few people who can publish, and we currently have few people who can publish 12:27:59 <glx> yes but publishers needed to be post author too 12:28:03 <andythenorth> it was quite a lot of work, and we got a faster website and fewer weird dependencies 12:28:09 <andythenorth> but we didn't make publishing news easier 12:28:10 <glx> now anyone can author 12:28:42 <andythenorth> yes 12:28:53 <andythenorth> but that's just work 12:28:59 <andythenorth> there's no result until it's published 12:29:07 <LordAro> what makes you think it should be any easier to publish? 12:29:24 <andythenorth> I am just describing current situation 12:32:25 *** Etua has joined #openttd 12:46:25 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 updated pull request #7805: Fix #7646: incomplete cleanup for non-threaded world generation failure https://git.io/JeE3o 12:47:15 <glx> seems to be the right thing to do for me 13:06:19 <andythenorth> hmm enough Blitz 13:06:24 <andythenorth> what are we doing again? 13:06:51 <TrueBrain> the reason to migrate to Jekyll was to change the busfactor from 1 to N, as a FYI 13:07:08 <TrueBrain> not for the newspost, for the whole website ;) 13:10:46 <andythenorth> ok I may have imagined a set of conversations :P 13:11:03 <andythenorth> there is somewhat a fantasy world that exists in my head 13:11:36 <TrueBrain> there are additional benefits, as a bigger audience that can figure out how to post news, sure. But that is "extra", not the goal :) 13:12:37 <TrueBrain> and being able to collaborate on news, that was an unexpected addition too :) 13:13:28 *** Etua has quit IRC 13:14:01 <andythenorth> I thought we started it so Kamnet could post the release announcements :P 13:14:02 <andythenorth> nvm 13:14:08 <andythenorth> the past is...gone 13:14:10 <andythenorth> what next? 13:14:34 <andythenorth> does anybody know how to debug desyncs? 13:14:46 <TrueBrain> yes 13:15:17 <andythenorth> we have this https://github.com/andythenorth/OpenTTD/blob/revise-readme-october-2019/docs/desync.md 13:15:31 <andythenorth> and in my README rewrite branch, I split this from README https://github.com/andythenorth/OpenTTD/blob/revise-readme-october-2019/docs/debugging_desyncs.md 13:15:44 <andythenorth> and we have https://wiki.openttd.org/OpenTTDDevBlackBook/Network/Desync_debugging 13:16:03 <andythenorth> is this all fine, or should I do something about consolidating them? 13:16:18 <TrueBrain> *shrug* 13:16:22 <TrueBrain> never said I knew :D 13:16:33 *** Etua has joined #openttd 13:16:34 <andythenorth> you are not the entire channel :P 13:16:40 <TrueBrain> pfew 13:16:42 <TrueBrain> *leaves* 13:16:42 <andythenorth> innit 13:17:33 * andythenorth plays tanks until an answer is found 13:17:35 <andythenorth> or boredom 13:17:57 <TrueBrain> I ran out of games to play :( 13:17:58 <TrueBrain> bit sad 13:18:24 <andythenorth> OpenTTD is quite good 13:25:01 *** Flygon has quit IRC 13:26:40 <andythenorth> TrueBrain: there is ongoing game event called 'rewrite README' https://github.com/andythenorth/OpenTTD/blob/revise-readme-october-2019/README.md 13:26:51 <andythenorth> numbering and stuff is all wrong, but what else can go / be added? 13:28:00 <TrueBrain> more smilies! :D 13:31:50 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 updated pull request #7804: Fix: spelling/grammar in script_tile.hpp https://git.io/JeEOo 13:38:29 <andythenorth> do we support unicode emojis? 13:52:40 *** Etua has quit IRC 13:57:13 *** supermop_Home has joined #openttd 13:57:18 <supermop_Home> hello 13:58:24 <andythenorth> yo 14:01:37 <supermop_Home> hows it going 14:05:03 <andythenorth> I just got killed in Blitz 14:05:04 <andythenorth> again 14:05:50 <andythenorth> but seriously 14:06:20 <andythenorth> people with 'Pro_' in their username for a MMORG 14:06:27 <andythenorth> and always 47% players 14:07:15 <andythenorth> dude doesn't even track traverse :P 14:09:32 *** gelignite has joined #openttd 14:21:06 <supermop_Home> maybe I should get my own andy-ish server 14:30:46 <andythenorth> we could play tank games on it? o_O 14:40:28 <glx> <andythenorth> do we support unicode emojis? <-- yes if the used font supports it, but it's not really cross player "safe" 14:41:14 <andythenorth> in GitHub docs? 14:41:52 <andythenorth> hmm, all I do today is play Blitz 14:42:01 <andythenorth> bad bad bad 15:29:41 *** glx has quit IRC 15:41:03 *** glx has joined #openttd 15:41:03 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v glx 15:41:43 <andythenorth> Blitz win rate today 10% :( 15:41:52 <andythenorth> this makes me quite ragey :( 15:51:17 <frosch123> hmm, i never saw anyone use EXIT_SUCCESS 15:52:00 <frosch123> c89, so it has always been there 16:04:57 <supermop_Home> are there nrt servers? 16:06:14 <andythenorth> not afaik 16:10:31 * andythenorth stops losing at Blitz 16:10:36 <andythenorth> and revises README 16:10:52 <andythenorth> it's now 8 links, and a list of where all the files are :P 16:11:18 <andythenorth> numbered tables of contents are very bad for linkrot 16:13:06 <LordAro> but but section 4.2 16:16:37 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop_Home: servers have traditionally been very vary of newgrfs 16:18:07 <andythenorth> that's the list of where all the files are :P 16:18:15 *** andythenorth has quit IRC 16:18:32 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd 16:22:27 <andythenorth> 4.0 "Installing any 3rd party files into a 'shared' location has the advantage that you only need to do this step once, rather than copying the data files into all OpenTTD versions you have." 16:22:41 <andythenorth> 4.1 "Do NOT copy files included with OpenTTD into 'shared' directories (explained in the following sections) as sooner or later you will run into graphical glitches when using other versions of the game." 16:23:44 <andythenorth> oh, it means different things 16:23:48 * andythenorth was puzzled 16:24:03 <LordAro> it could be made clearer 16:27:16 <andythenorth> this is current state of my branch https://github.com/andythenorth/OpenTTD/blob/revise-readme-october-2019/README.md#10-about 16:27:24 <peter1138> Went to Tesco to buy loo roll and gnocchi. Came back £60 lighter :( 16:28:26 <Eddi|zuHause> that's some expensive toilet paper. 16:28:29 <LordAro> that's a lot of loo roll and gnocchi 16:28:37 <Eddi|zuHause> brexit panic drove the price up? :p 16:29:47 <andythenorth> stockpiling innit 16:30:37 <andythenorth> I feel like Installing and Running OpenTTD might be a bit misleading? https://github.com/andythenorth/OpenTTD/blob/revise-readme-october-2019/README.md#40-installing-and-running-openttd 16:30:57 <andythenorth> "Installing OpenTTD is fairly straightforward." [followed by complicated instructions] 16:31:10 <andythenorth> isn't OpenTTD download, double click to run? 16:31:28 *** andythenorth has quit IRC 16:31:50 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd 16:32:32 <andythenorth> https://wiki.openttd.org/Installation seems easier to follow 16:36:13 <peter1138> FFS, I just killed some boss on Doom. And in its place spawns... two bosses. 16:38:47 <andythenorth> Boom 16:39:08 <andythenorth> I remember the first time I completed Episode 1, and did the final teleport 16:39:20 <andythenorth> then got ripped to shreds in the end game animation :) 16:39:31 <peter1138> This is Doom 2016, heh. 16:39:50 <andythenorth> if anyone wanted to vary from playing games, this is a good book https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B000FBFNL0/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1 16:40:17 <andythenorth> eh what? 16:40:30 <andythenorth> [OS X]: "To run the original soundtrack, you will need TiMidity and Freepats" 16:44:44 * andythenorth is playing the soundtrack now :P 16:44:49 <andythenorth> without any extra stuffs 17:08:52 *** greeter has quit IRC 17:10:49 *** greeter has joined #openttd 17:23:32 <frosch123> is osx still a thing? 17:23:43 <andythenorth> no 17:23:48 <andythenorth> I've updated the wiki a bit 17:23:54 <andythenorth> first I had to learn how to install OpenTTD :P 17:24:19 <frosch123> the last days i have seen multiple yt talks where people talk about windows, linux, android, and either mac or ios, but never both 17:25:14 <andythenorth> well it's easy for us, ios is not a thing 17:27:35 <andythenorth> how easy is it to understand this page? https://wiki.openttd.org/Installation 17:28:58 <frosch123> someone inserted the first paragraph without deleting the others 17:29:21 <andythenorth> I somewhat improved the macOS guide 17:29:38 <frosch123> does osx have the bootstrap gui? 17:29:41 <TrueBrain> If you need to explain an installer, something else went wrong 17:30:03 <andythenorth> is the first-run experience all just a bit crap? :) 17:30:12 <andythenorth> I never noticed because I 'make run' 17:30:19 <andythenorth> and I've had the TTD graphics for 15 years :P 17:30:53 <andythenorth> Using OpenGFX base graphics: Consult the OpenGFX Readme for further instructions. 17:30:59 <andythenorth> links to https://wiki.openttd.org/OpenGFX_Readme#Manually_Installing_OpenGFX 17:31:08 <andythenorth> could be more user friendly? 17:31:30 <frosch123> on windows and linux opengfx installs by default 17:32:01 <frosch123> i think the whole page is silly. noone will find that page before playing the game 17:32:29 <frosch123> it's probably okay to have a "how to install original basesets", but the rest is superfluous 17:32:49 <andythenorth> I got into it because I wanted to improve https://github.com/andythenorth/OpenTTD/blob/revise-readme-october-2019/README.md#40-installing-and-running-openttd 17:33:27 <andythenorth> it's very long and complicated imho 17:33:33 <frosch123> so: 1. Installations -> run the installer 2. How to play with original basesets -> if you are an old fart and want your childhood memorises, copy these files to the locations as mentinoned in readme 4.2 17:33:44 <andythenorth> and special case for mac users? 17:33:45 <andythenorth> :P 17:33:51 <glx> yeah linux version has a bootstrap to get opengfx 17:34:04 <andythenorth> mac users just get a 'files not found' error 17:34:11 <glx> and windows installer has the option to download it 17:34:40 <glx> because nobody implemented that to the macOS version :) 17:34:52 <andythenorth> and we don't bundle gfx because? filesize? release cycle? hassle? 17:34:59 <glx> remember we have no real macOS dev 17:35:32 <glx> we don't bundle it because it's useless to include it in each upgrade 17:35:54 <glx> once it's installed you don't need it, and you can upgrade it from the game 17:36:49 <frosch123> lol, did you see the last sentence of the "introduction"? 17:37:35 <frosch123> i think that originally refered to basesets for windows/dos palette. but somone changed it to platforms win/osx/linux 17:38:25 <glx> lol 17:39:16 <andythenorth> ha ha, I fixed 'Mac OS X' to 'macOS' there without noticing it's all nonsense :) 17:39:40 <andythenorth> frosch123: are you fixing it? o_O 17:40:19 <frosch123> no, i just assume you will delete it :) 17:41:09 <andythenorth> done :P 17:41:33 <andythenorth> it's nice that someone went to the effort of this image https://wiki.openttd.org/File:Installation_1a.png 17:41:37 <andythenorth> but I feel it adds nothing :P 17:42:05 <glx> https://wiki.openttd.org/?title=Installation&diff=prev&oldid=52323 17:42:19 <glx> quite old 17:43:36 <glx> https://wiki.openttd.org/?title=Installation&direction=prev&oldid=52323 <-- this version used the image 17:46:51 <andythenorth> all this stuff about shared directories, what are they? https://github.com/andythenorth/OpenTTD/blob/revise-readme-october-2019/README.md#40-installing-and-running-openttd 17:46:58 <andythenorth> and why would I move the config file? 17:47:16 <andythenorth> the mac disk image doesn't even include a config file 17:47:36 <glx> it has the "default" one 17:48:00 <glx> like other versions 17:48:09 <frosch123> every now an then people want a stand-alone installation on a usb drive they can use at work 17:48:24 <andythenorth> that's covered somewhere in there 17:48:31 <frosch123> they usally care about locations 17:48:45 <andythenorth> nah there's no .cfg in the bundle 17:49:00 <glx> I said the "default" one :) 17:49:17 <glx> ie not existing and using default values 17:49:46 <andythenorth> I am just trying to figure out how to explain that the config file needs to be moved 17:49:50 <andythenorth> was all :) 17:50:01 <andythenorth> I don't really understand the instructions in README very much 17:50:05 <andythenorth> and I never install OpenTTD 17:50:42 <andythenorth> me writing the instructions is blind leading blind :) 17:56:28 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Wirdal commented on issue #7592: Road vehicles don't balance between multiple loading bays https://git.io/fjlL0 18:08:27 <andythenorth> so all platforms except mac have an installer? 18:08:34 <andythenorth> so README could just say 'run the installer'? 18:09:06 *** gelignite has quit IRC 18:13:43 <LordAro> andythenorth: linux doesn't 18:14:10 <LordAro> it has an archive, or preferably "download from your friendly local package manager" 18:21:41 <frosch123> it's okay to assume that people know how to use their os 18:21:59 <frosch123> the wiki should only explain unusual things 18:22:32 <frosch123> are mac people used to have installers? 18:22:40 <frosch123> hmm, i guess most people are used to have steam :p 18:23:04 <frosch123> how did the ottd foundation go? 18:28:03 <andythenorth> nowhere 18:28:15 <andythenorth> I asked if it was ok to contact free software europe people 18:28:17 <andythenorth> crickets 18:28:40 <andythenorth> most mac stuff is a dmg with 'drag to your disk' 18:33:04 <frosch123> ah, the damage format 18:36:59 <NGC3982> holy jesus playing factorio in 5120x1440 is a thing on it's own 18:38:30 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Eddi-z commented on issue #7592: Road vehicles don't balance between multiple loading bays https://git.io/fjlL0 18:38:31 <frosch123> you are lucky that factories usually look better in landscape layout than in portrait 18:45:55 *** Progman has joined #openttd 18:46:58 <andythenorth> currently have this https://github.com/andythenorth/OpenTTD/blob/revise-readme-october-2019/README.md#10-about 18:47:14 <andythenorth> I figure on saying less, linking more :P 18:47:24 <andythenorth> we can always add things if people find a lack later 18:49:22 <andythenorth> after 4.0 I need to rewrite more :P 18:51:50 <frosch123> do you want feedback on it? and how? or better get done with it? :) 18:52:45 <andythenorth> it's not ready for PR yet 18:52:56 <andythenorth> but general direction feedback is useful 18:53:08 <andythenorth> and any suggestions of further deletions, or important omissions :) 18:53:18 <frosch123> ok, so i won't nitpick on individual sentenes 18:53:43 <andythenorth> nah, PR better for that :) 18:53:57 <andythenorth> or just PR, fix, force-push :P 18:55:09 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] JGRennison commented on issue #7592: Road vehicles don't balance between multiple loading bays https://git.io/fjlL0 18:56:32 <frosch123> sometimes i am surprised that people added something to the readme 18:57:27 <frosch123> i guess move the "how to get some ai" to the installation section 18:57:32 <frosch123> imo delete the gs section 18:58:32 <andythenorth> I was thinking of rewriting everything about add-on content / mods 18:58:37 <frosch123> but ai installation is kind of stupid, you can't tell people to install xyz as with opengfx 18:58:38 <andythenorth> and calling it add-on content / mods 18:59:36 <frosch123> that is also fine, but ais are special since there is no default one included 18:59:56 <andythenorth> there is a thread about that 19:00:05 <frosch123> you can play ottd without newgrf or gs. but people often are confused about ais not working 19:00:31 <andythenorth> are there any AIs that work? 19:00:34 <andythenorth> :) 19:01:56 <frosch123> no idea, when people talk about ais here, they are usually developing one 19:02:55 <frosch123> new players are different to old players. new players think there is an economical challenge and ais 19:03:39 <andythenorth> AI contest 19:03:44 <andythenorth> top 3, pre-installed :P 19:04:22 <frosch123> make ottd phone home when an ai crashes 19:04:34 <frosch123> they pick the least-crashing ones 19:04:49 <andythenorth> just use a tracking pixel 19:04:58 <andythenorth> load a 1px png from a remote url 19:05:04 <andythenorth> no personal data 19:05:15 <andythenorth> don't read the IP addresses 19:06:26 <frosch123> what makes the forums more official than the wiki? 19:07:04 <Eddi|zuHause> why would that be a valid comparison? 19:09:42 <frosch123> i didn't want to nitpick sentences, but that one appears weird 19:10:02 <frosch123> oh, i didn't know there was a 4.3 19:11:04 <frosch123> imo delete section 8 completely 19:11:15 <andythenorth> I need to fix the wiki unofficialness 19:11:20 <andythenorth> I was confused :) 19:12:14 <frosch123> as for the credits section. i would prefer a CONTRIBUTORS.md, and adding more patchers to it 19:12:42 <andythenorth> we are growing some number of files in / 19:12:46 <andythenorth> rather than /docs 19:12:50 <andythenorth> probably fine? 19:12:58 <frosch123> yes, the interesting stuff is in /src 19:13:13 <andythenorth> isn't CONTRIBUTORS just set(every commit author)? 19:13:33 <andythenorth> ie. github already does it 19:13:43 <andythenorth> https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/graphs/contributors 19:14:05 <frosch123> i think it is fine to distinguish maintainers/developers and "external" contributors 19:14:25 <frosch123> github misses the people from the svn age 19:14:38 <frosch123> github misses the people not on github 19:14:47 <frosch123> and for some reason github also missed people on github 19:15:11 <andythenorth> ok 19:15:20 <andythenorth> I have deleted section 8 19:15:36 <andythenorth> CREDITS.md? 19:15:50 <andythenorth> CONTRIBUTORS will conflate for my auto-complete with CONTRIBUTING :) 19:16:10 <frosch123> https://github.com/OpenTTD/grfcodec/graphs/contributors <- at least i did not figure out why i was missing there 19:16:43 <andythenorth> ha yes 19:16:50 <LordAro> different email address? 19:17:03 <frosch123> my account is linked from the commit log 19:17:07 <andythenorth> I think the github index is broken 19:17:08 <andythenorth> https://github.com/OpenTTD/grfcodec/commits/master 19:17:12 <frosch123> so, gh knows it's me 19:17:21 <andythenorth> if I click on your user in a commit, it says you have no commits 19:18:07 <andythenorth> https://github.com/andythenorth/OpenTTD/blob/revise-readme-october-2019/CREDITS.md 19:19:04 <andythenorth> and https://github.com/andythenorth/OpenTTD/blob/revise-readme-october-2019/README.md#credits 19:19:43 <frosch123> LordAro: indeed, that repo has a weird email address for me 19:19:46 <frosch123> who imported that? 19:19:53 <LordAro> probably you :p 19:20:00 <frosch123> users.noreply.github.com 19:20:05 <frosch123> for many of them 19:20:28 <LordAro> i think that's a github default for when there isn't an email address? 19:20:40 <LordAro> you'll need the actual checkout to see the actual authors, i think 19:20:52 <frosch123> i just cloned it, to see it 19:20:58 <andythenorth> rewrite history, force push? :P 19:21:00 <andythenorth> 'probably fine' 19:21:18 <LordAro> make a new repo, more like 19:21:24 <LordAro> it's otherwise untouched, right? 19:21:37 <frosch123> it had one pr 19:22:00 <frosch123> he, pm did a merge commit? 19:22:10 <LordAro> well then, definitely a new repo required :p 19:22:54 <frosch123> ok, reimport grfcodec then :) 19:25:04 <frosch123> all cloners are kind of here, so force-push is probably also fine 19:26:26 <frosch123> i planned to batch-convert all repos last week anyway 19:27:31 <andythenorth> most of readme is now a guide to your computer's filesystem :) 19:28:39 <frosch123> put a "if you were linked here, people want you to read section 4.2" at the top 19:28:48 <frosch123> (don't) :p 19:33:16 <andythenorth> FILESYSTEM.md 19:33:17 <andythenorth> :P 19:34:04 <milek7> 'Under Windows 98 and lower it is impossible to use a dedicated server; it will fail to start. Perhaps this is for the better because those OSes are not known for their stability.' 19:34:07 <milek7> possibly remove? 19:34:21 <frosch123> we deleted the whole section :p 19:34:34 <milek7> ah, ok 19:34:43 <frosch123> it all refers to old os 19:34:50 <frosch123> and i would not look for font stuff there 19:35:27 <frosch123> it's like the CERT portability guide lines 19:35:49 <frosch123> half of them are BS that must be burned with fire 19:36:14 <frosch123> working around bugs of compilers shipped in early 90's 19:36:36 <andythenorth> that section is gone :) 19:36:36 <andythenorth> I pushed 19:36:53 <andythenorth> not enough things get burned with fire :) 19:36:53 <andythenorth> it causes troubles 19:37:44 *** andythenorth has quit IRC 19:38:07 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd 19:48:51 *** andythenorth has quit IRC 19:49:09 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd 19:51:54 <milek7> does os/2 port really still works? ;P 19:52:07 <glx> it used to 19:52:18 <glx> probably not tested for a long time now 19:53:39 <frosch123> last os/2 related commit seems to be from 2014 19:53:57 <frosch123> i guess the question is whehther there is a c++14 capable compiler 19:54:44 <frosch123> iirc there is one for dos, but none for win9x. so hard to extrapolate for os/2 :) 19:57:01 <milek7> curious, it seems there is, https://os2ports.smedley.id.au/index.php?page=gcc-v8.x 19:59:16 <frosch123> haha, i think that is the guy who contributed that fix in 2014 :p 20:01:00 <frosch123> so, i claim, he only maintains gcc to be able to play ottd 20:12:07 *** lpx has quit IRC 20:27:04 *** lpx has joined #openttd 20:52:24 <supermop_Home> man all I did today was pay too much for a shirt 20:57:21 <andythenorth> https://github.com/andythenorth/OpenTTD/blob/revise-readme-october-2019/README.md#15-add-on-content--mods 20:57:24 <andythenorth> ^ o_O 21:06:12 <nielsm> well, I'm just about out 21:06:14 <andythenorth> frosch123: any comments? 21:06:27 <nielsm> might not visit irc very much for the next two weeks :) 21:11:06 <frosch123> andythenorth: "adding" is troublesome 21:11:23 <frosch123> the content gui downloads stuff, but does not activate it 21:14:11 <frosch123> i guess 4.2 gets a lot shorter when deleting info about win < 7, and when putting stuff into a table 21:14:39 <frosch123> folder|win|linux|osx 21:14:46 <LordAro> nielsm: have fun! 21:15:05 *** andythenorth has quit IRC 21:15:41 <frosch123> aw, the readme mentions "32bpp sets" :) 21:17:39 <nielsm> well abase and zbase do exist 21:18:00 <frosch123> yes, but it is not about those 21:18:19 <frosch123> it's about the old 32bpp stuff for ottd 0.6 - ottd 1.1 21:18:24 <frosch123> deleted in ottd 1.2 21:19:32 <nielsm> oh 21:19:40 <nielsm> yeah I wasn't around for that 21:19:51 <nielsm> anyway, I'm out 21:19:56 <frosch123> you missed some drama :) 21:19:58 <frosch123> bye 21:20:26 *** nielsm has quit IRC 21:20:40 *** tyteen4a03 has quit IRC 21:20:43 *** tyteen4a03 has joined #openttd 21:40:03 *** frosch123 has quit IRC 21:53:40 *** sla_ro|master has quit IRC 22:08:40 <NGC3982> https://android.henjoh.se/20191026_232334_008.jpg 22:08:42 <NGC3982> <3. 22:12:38 *** Etua has joined #openttd 22:30:40 *** HerzogDeXtEr has quit IRC 23:43:24 *** Etua has quit IRC 23:49:16 *** Flygon has joined #openttd