Log for #openttd on 26th October 2019:
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00:02:15  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on issue #7646: Random map generation failure crashes the game (dedicated server).
00:02:35  <glx> at least there's a trace now
00:07:33  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 opened pull request #7804: Fix: spelling/grammar in script_tile.hpp
00:09:52  <glx> but the trace doesn't really help
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00:25:31  <glx> hmm I don't want to bruteforce a failing seed
01:00:38  <glx> ok I think I found it
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01:55:29  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 opened pull request #7805: Fix #7646: incomplete cleanup for non-threaded world generation failure
01:56:03  <glx> needs more work, but the crash is fixed :)
02:51:57  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 commented on pull request #7805: Fix #7646: incomplete cleanup for non-threaded world generation failure
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06:13:20  <andythenorth> yo
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06:20:13  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth commented on issue #7799: Vehicle health indicator
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06:36:09  <andythenorth> hmm
06:36:12  <andythenorth> this might be bad
06:36:13  <andythenorth>
06:36:16  <andythenorth>
06:36:28  <andythenorth>
06:36:49  <andythenorth>
06:36:50  <andythenorth> etc
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07:04:47  <andythenorth> japan eh nielsm ?
07:07:24  <nielsm> ye
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07:34:06  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro requested changes for pull request #7804: Fix: spelling/grammar in script_tile.hpp
07:38:03  <andythenorth> oh LordAro is awake :D
07:40:45  <LordAro> o/
07:40:50  <LordAro> :p
07:51:49  * andythenorth wonders what to do today
08:56:28  <Eddi|zuHause> the same thing we do every day?
08:56:38  <andythenorth> play Blitz?
08:57:39  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] ldpl commented on pull request #7805: Fix #7646: incomplete cleanup for non-threaded world generation failure
08:58:17  <nielsm> right now mostly finishing up the vacation cage for the birds, soon need to trick them both into climbing in and stay there
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09:02:32  <andythenorth> does someone look after them?
09:02:46  <nielsm> they'll stay with my mom
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09:13:00  <andythenorth> so GitHub pages can do this
09:13:01  <andythenorth>
09:13:06  <andythenorth> and
09:13:08  <andythenorth> etc
09:13:24  <andythenorth> every .md file gets rendered by Jekyll and a template of our choice applied
09:13:36  <andythenorth> but I think it's probably a bad idea
09:14:07  <andythenorth> (this is a one-click setting change in the GitHub UI btw, no other changes needed)
09:20:38  <LordAro>
09:20:43  <LordAro> andythenorth: why a bad idea?
09:26:35  <andythenorth> creates a 3rd location for docs, reduce canonical-ness
09:26:43  <andythenorth> wiki, github, github pages
09:27:28  <andythenorth> I want us to turn GH Pages on so we can serve the html landscape files though
09:27:39  <andythenorth> but maybe not with a full Jekyll theme
09:28:05  <Eddi|zuHause> convert them into .md? :p
09:28:34  <andythenorth> you can, I won't
09:28:39  <andythenorth> whitespace trauma
09:28:50  <andythenorth> pandoc....
09:29:38  <Eddi|zuHause> why do i bother starting games that i know won't run properly?
09:36:11  <Eddi|zuHause> it's still not even made it to the main menu
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10:22:53  <andythenorth> hmm
10:22:55  <andythenorth> bored of Blitz
10:24:19  <andythenorth> is it ottd time?
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10:51:32  <nielsm> :( I had to catch one of the birds with a net, he couldn't be convinved to get into the cage on his own
10:51:35  <nielsm> it hurts
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11:07:48  <andythenorth> oof
11:29:10  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: you are aware we already run GitHub Pages right? Well, we callit Jekyll, make it a docker, and run it on our own infra ... but ... it is literally the same :P Only not the place it ispublished
11:30:25  <TrueBrain> 11:26 <andythenorth> creates a 3rd location for docs, reduce canonical-ness <- the whole reasonw e have stuff like, newgrf., grfcrawler., etc etc, is to avoid that issue, while still using different places
11:30:29  <TrueBrain> it is a very easy fix
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11:37:02  <andythenorth> TrueBrain: so are you +/-1 to GH Pages?  I am +/-0
11:37:22  <andythenorth> this was just to get 2 html files published on the web without a weird intermediary service
11:37:26  <TrueBrain> no, I don't care about GitHub Pages one way or the other
11:37:31  <TrueBrain> I was just mentioning that your reasoning failed :D
11:37:38  <andythenorth> eh?
11:37:55  <TrueBrain> it doesn't create 3 locations for docs :)
11:38:01  <TrueBrain> we can tackle that numerous of other ways :P
11:38:14  <andythenorth> it creates github pages and github rendered markdown
11:38:18  <LordAro> 3 locations isn't the issue, it's 3 different sources
11:38:28  <andythenorth> no it's 2 sources, one rendered twice
11:38:30  <LordAro> or at least, that's what i thought andythenorth had the issue with
11:38:48  <andythenorth> the issue is 2 locations for links from the wiki, it creates confusion
11:38:53  <TrueBrain> well, seems andythenorth talks too ambigious in his complaints :D
11:39:03  <TrueBrain> 2 locations is a solvable issue
11:39:06  <andythenorth> I often omit tedious backstory
11:39:11  <andythenorth> how do you solve two locations?
11:39:17  <TrueBrain> in fact, generating HTML is a solvable issue, in many many ways :P
11:39:28  <TrueBrain> so it is easier to just say what you would like, and we make it magically happen :D
11:39:47  <andythenorth> ok
11:39:56  <andythenorth> very specifically, I would like a better story on this page
11:40:16  <andythenorth> that is the entirety of my GH Pages question
11:40:42  <TrueBrain> do you want it on the wiki, or some location?
11:40:53  <andythenorth> the 2 linked docs  *cannot* be on the wiki
11:40:57  <andythenorth> they have to travel with src
11:41:08  <TrueBrain> they CAN be on the wiki; the question more is if you want that :)
11:41:17  <andythenorth> well they cannot if we have any sense
11:41:23  <andythenorth> what's our score on sense recently?
11:41:54  <TrueBrain> well, nothing to do with sense
11:41:58  <TrueBrain> just a lack of imagination, I am afraid :)
11:42:07  <TrueBrain> we used to have more dynamic content in the wiki
11:42:12  <TrueBrain> just pages you couldn't edit via the wiki
11:42:15  <TrueBrain> but were available on the wiki
11:42:21  <TrueBrain> just a matter of perspective
11:42:22  <andythenorth> and PRs can update the wiki? o_O
11:42:31  <TrueBrain> you are jumping
11:42:40  <TrueBrain> more important question first is what the source is
11:42:50  <TrueBrain> are the landscape grids on GitHub and do they need to stay there
11:43:01  <andythenorth> we can speak only of those 2 docs, pls?
11:43:03  <TrueBrain> for example, take our NoAI API docs .. they are in the source
11:43:05  <andythenorth> ignoring all other concerns
11:43:08  <TrueBrain> yet they are not published there
11:43:10  <TrueBrain> it is like .. magic :D
11:43:17  <TrueBrain> we were?
11:43:22  <TrueBrain> where did you took a turn I did not take?
11:43:26  <andythenorth> just checking
11:43:47  <andythenorth> talking to TB is the most like a RL conversation I get in irc :P
11:43:55  <TrueBrain> ty :)
11:44:05  <andythenorth> I have a TB avatar animating in my head :P
11:44:12  <TrueBrain> that is scary :P
11:44:20  <TrueBrain> but if you have the grid in the source, so on GitHub
11:44:24  <andythenorth> especially as I have no idea what anyone looks like :P
11:44:41  <TrueBrain> in general, you can do two things: publish it on a website, like we do for many other things (API, binaries, and even our website)
11:44:51  <TrueBrain> or you can have some dynamic component fetch the source to publish the result
11:44:56  <andythenorth> ok, so my backstory: (1) grid needs updated if map array changes (2) we are -1 on auto-generating docs from src
11:44:57  <TrueBrain> in mediawiki, you can use the latter more easier than the first
11:45:14  <TrueBrain> 2) is irrelevant for this story, not?
11:45:35  <andythenorth> well if it was my project, I'd delete the html files and generate from src
11:45:36  <andythenorth> src knows the bits
11:45:40  <LordAro> is (2) correct? i would've thought we would prefer autogenerating such docs
11:45:45  <TrueBrain> okay, but you just said to scope it to the two documents :P
11:46:14  <TrueBrain> LordAro: it can be fun, to autogenerate it :D Could even detect cases where we misuse bits, if done correctly
11:46:20  <TrueBrain> but it would be a project on its own, to do so
11:47:17  <andythenorth> ok so far I see the following proposals (1) do nothing, it's fine (2) turn on GH Pages (3) make those html files appear in the wiki (4) something else?
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11:47:39  <TrueBrain> 2) is not a goal, it is a solution
11:47:43  <TrueBrain> so that is useless
11:47:50  <andythenorth> I don't like it for some reason
11:47:57  <andythenorth> GH Pages is cool but weird
11:47:59  <TrueBrain> it is not about liking or not liking
11:48:05  <TrueBrain> you are not solving anything by just publishing them
11:48:07  <TrueBrain> you have a goal in mind
11:48:13  <TrueBrain> "using GH Pages" is not a goal
11:48:16  <andythenorth> that's the reason then
11:48:18  <andythenorth> onwards
11:48:19  <TrueBrain> my goal is not to get in my car, my goal is to get somewhere
11:48:31  <TrueBrain> so you have a source
11:48:39  <andythenorth> we have a source
11:48:40  <TrueBrain> and you want something with it .. publish it on the wiki? is that the goal?
11:48:45  <TrueBrain> or are we solving an issue that does not exist?
11:48:52  <andythenorth> see (1)
11:49:09  <andythenorth> I want our docs to be Good Enough
11:49:13  <andythenorth> is this Good Enough?
11:49:15  <TrueBrain> because grading GH Pages on something without that something being defined is just looking for something to do :) Fine with me btw :P
11:49:25  <TrueBrain> is our wiki good enugh?
11:49:27  <TrueBrain> (in general)
11:49:29  <andythenorth> it's better than it was
11:49:38  <TrueBrain> so if you want this in the wiki, 2 choices
11:49:40  <andythenorth> I drove a bus through the dev section
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11:49:46  <TrueBrain> either use a publication method like
11:49:53  <TrueBrain> or add a dynamic page that shows the HTML
11:49:56  <andythenorth>
11:50:26  <andythenorth> we did (me and frosch) look at adding those docs to doxygen, but it wasn't trivially done
11:50:41  <TrueBrain> you are thinking too complex :)
11:50:53  <TrueBrain> those docs on that page, are not what they look like :P
11:50:54  <andythenorth> see (1)
11:51:10  <TrueBrain> <- the banner there, is not in the source
11:51:11  <andythenorth> oh I see, you mean you have control of a webserver? :P
11:51:47  <TrueBrain> if you want a nice link to show those two grid pages, I am pretty sure we can make them
11:51:58  <andythenorth> this is like the last docs question I have btw, before the Great Readme Rewrite
11:52:15  <TrueBrain> but one can also wonder if the html file is the right source for this
11:52:21  <TrueBrain> as  .. well .. updating it is kinda annoying :D
11:52:22  <andythenorth> one can, I didn't :)
11:52:29  <andythenorth> turns out rewriting README required cleaning up all the destinations for links first :D
11:52:56  <TrueBrain> basically, what I tried to say in the start of this conversation: where/how things are published, we can fix that, really, we can
11:53:01  <TrueBrain> we have been doing that for 15+ years :)
11:53:14  <TrueBrain> not much is what it seems .. we link all kind of different pieces of information together
11:53:16  <TrueBrain> that is fine
11:53:23  <TrueBrain> just state what you would like, and we make it happen :)
11:54:16  <andythenorth> I have all the power? :o
11:54:50  <andythenorth> I would like a cookie :P
11:55:23  <TrueBrain>
11:55:24  <TrueBrain> there you go
11:55:26  <andythenorth> super
11:55:28  <TrueBrain> as many cookies as you would like
11:55:32  <TrueBrain> anything else sir? :D
11:55:46  <andythenorth> I would like 2 urls that the 2 html files appear on, rendered as html in the browser
11:55:56  <TrueBrain> but no, really; if you tell me that those two HTMLs stay in the source, and you want them properly in the wiki, we can make that happen
11:56:19  <andythenorth> I am happy to just keep using this
11:56:34  <andythenorth> but it relies on unknown 3rd party service, not usually a wise idea
11:56:41  <TrueBrain> rarely
11:56:51  <andythenorth> the result is achieved
12:00:20  <TrueBrain>
12:00:46  <TrueBrain>
12:01:07  <TrueBrain> I will fix that properly some day :P
12:03:19  <TrueBrain> there, even fixed the links
12:03:31  <andythenorth> hurrah
12:04:24  <TrueBrain> <- most important URL of the week .. fucking retarded functionality
12:08:19  <andythenorth> so do we actually want monthly dev posts?
12:08:31  <nielsm> they aren't really getting written
12:08:38  <andythenorth> I wonder if it's like a new year's resolution: well intended but not gonna happen
12:08:41  <nielsm> someone asked for them, we tried making them, it isn't working well on our end
12:09:11  <andythenorth> the approach we have isn't going to work, for multiple reasons
12:09:38  <andythenorth> they're over-engineered for what they are
12:09:51  <andythenorth> and open source can't deliver anything to a regular cadence
12:11:05  <andythenorth> apart from historical reasons, do we need news on the website at all?
12:11:10  <andythenorth> we could just use forums + reddit
12:12:06  <LordAro> i've never been fans of places that "out sourced" their release announcements
12:12:06  <nielsm> perhaps not, as long as there is an RSS/atom feed of releases I think it'd be fine
12:12:22  <nielsm> then the front page could also be devoted to showing the game instead of being a blog
12:12:51  <nielsm> at least, the news/blog don't need to be the 90% content element on the front page
12:13:05  <frosch123> andythenorth: for some reason i do not understand, news on the website are read by way more people than forums
12:13:09  <peter1138> Hurr
12:13:13  <peter1138> LordAro, any riding today?
12:13:21  <LordAro> peter1138: yorkshire is cold and wet
12:13:23  <LordAro> so no
12:13:26  <peter1138> Everywhere is :-)
12:13:49  <peter1138> Don't think anyone here is doing riding today.
12:14:20  <LordAro> only one rider on my strava this morning
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12:14:40  <andythenorth> nielsm: I am kinda planning to....redo the website anyway :)
12:14:52  <LordAro> ohho
12:15:11  <peter1138> Something else to not finish \o/
12:15:25  <andythenorth> 1.0 :P
12:15:58  <andythenorth> 2.0 even :P
12:16:19  <nielsm> website 2.0?
12:16:25  <andythenorth> 1.1.16 right now
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12:18:02  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/website] LordAro approved pull request #106: Create
12:18:03  <andythenorth> frosch123: do you have actual numbers for forums vs website?
12:18:04  <LordAro> might as well then
12:18:21  <andythenorth> needs date changed
12:19:14  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/website] LordAro updated pull request #106: Create
12:19:14  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/website] LordAro dismissed a review for pull request #106: Create
12:21:05  <frosch123> andythenorth: no, but i refer to pikka's fundraiser from 5 years ago
12:23:58  <andythenorth> how did news posts get written before Jekyll?
12:24:25  <glx> php form IIRC
12:25:14  <andythenorth> did it require tag+release?
12:25:20  <frosch123> django, not php
12:26:03  <frosch123> andythenorth: how does that matter? noone liked writing release posts before either
12:26:14  <andythenorth> I just wonder if we solved the wrong problem
12:26:25  <glx> it was a dynamic site
12:26:44  <andythenorth> at least one objective for the website rewrite was to make it easier to add news posts
12:26:45  <glx> we switched to static for Jekyll
12:26:53  <glx> it's easier now
12:26:55  <andythenorth> so e.g. Kamnet etc could contribute
12:27:01  <frosch123> andythenorth: we transformed the problem from "few people can post news, but do not want to" to "many people could post news, but do not want to"
12:27:14  <andythenorth> actually I disagree
12:27:19  <andythenorth> I don't think the problem changed
12:27:23  <glx> anyone can open a PR
12:27:33  <glx> no rights needed :)
12:27:35  <andythenorth> we previously had few people who can publish, and we currently have few people who can publish
12:27:59  <glx> yes but publishers needed to be post author too
12:28:03  <andythenorth> it was quite a lot of work, and we got a faster website and fewer weird dependencies
12:28:09  <andythenorth> but we didn't make publishing news easier
12:28:10  <glx> now anyone can author
12:28:42  <andythenorth> yes
12:28:53  <andythenorth> but that's just work
12:28:59  <andythenorth> there's no result until it's published
12:29:07  <LordAro> what makes you think it should be any easier to publish?
12:29:24  <andythenorth> I am just describing current situation
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12:46:25  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 updated pull request #7805: Fix #7646: incomplete cleanup for non-threaded world generation failure
12:47:15  <glx> seems to be the right thing to do for me
13:06:19  <andythenorth> hmm enough Blitz
13:06:24  <andythenorth> what are we doing again?
13:06:51  <TrueBrain> the reason to migrate to Jekyll was to change the busfactor from 1 to N, as a FYI
13:07:08  <TrueBrain> not for the newspost, for the whole website ;)
13:10:46  <andythenorth> ok I may have imagined a set of conversations :P
13:11:03  <andythenorth> there is somewhat a fantasy world that exists in my head
13:11:36  <TrueBrain> there are additional benefits, as a bigger audience that can figure out how to post news, sure. But that is "extra", not the goal :)
13:12:37  <TrueBrain> and being able to collaborate on news, that was an unexpected addition too :)
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13:14:01  <andythenorth> I thought we started it so Kamnet could post the release announcements :P
13:14:02  <andythenorth> nvm
13:14:08  <andythenorth> the past is...gone
13:14:10  <andythenorth> what next?
13:14:34  <andythenorth> does anybody know how to debug desyncs?
13:14:46  <TrueBrain> yes
13:15:17  <andythenorth> we have this
13:15:31  <andythenorth> and in my README rewrite branch, I split this from README
13:15:44  <andythenorth> and we have
13:16:03  <andythenorth> is this all fine, or should I do something about consolidating them?
13:16:18  <TrueBrain> *shrug*
13:16:22  <TrueBrain> never said I knew :D
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13:16:34  <andythenorth> you are not the entire channel :P
13:16:40  <TrueBrain> pfew
13:16:42  <TrueBrain> *leaves*
13:16:42  <andythenorth> innit
13:17:33  * andythenorth plays tanks until an answer is found
13:17:35  <andythenorth> or boredom
13:17:57  <TrueBrain> I ran out of games to play :(
13:17:58  <TrueBrain> bit sad
13:18:24  <andythenorth> OpenTTD is quite good
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13:26:40  <andythenorth> TrueBrain: there is ongoing game event called 'rewrite README'
13:26:51  <andythenorth> numbering and stuff is all wrong, but what else can go / be added?
13:28:00  <TrueBrain> more smilies! :D
13:31:50  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 updated pull request #7804: Fix: spelling/grammar in script_tile.hpp
13:38:29  <andythenorth> do we support unicode emojis?
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13:57:18  <supermop_Home> hello
13:58:24  <andythenorth> yo
14:01:37  <supermop_Home> hows it going
14:05:03  <andythenorth> I just got killed in Blitz
14:05:04  <andythenorth> again
14:05:50  <andythenorth> but seriously
14:06:20  <andythenorth> people with 'Pro_' in their username for a MMORG
14:06:27  <andythenorth> and always 47% players
14:07:15  <andythenorth> dude doesn't even track traverse :P
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14:21:06  <supermop_Home> maybe I should get my own andy-ish server
14:30:46  <andythenorth> we could play tank games on it? o_O
14:40:28  <glx> <andythenorth> do we support unicode emojis? <-- yes if the used font supports it, but it's not really cross player "safe"
14:41:14  <andythenorth> in GitHub docs?
14:41:52  <andythenorth> hmm, all I do today is play Blitz
14:42:01  <andythenorth> bad bad bad
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15:41:43  <andythenorth> Blitz win rate today 10% :(
15:41:52  <andythenorth> this makes me quite ragey :(
15:51:17  <frosch123> hmm, i never saw anyone use EXIT_SUCCESS
15:52:00  <frosch123> c89, so it has always been there
16:04:57  <supermop_Home> are there nrt servers?
16:06:14  <andythenorth> not afaik
16:10:31  * andythenorth stops losing at Blitz
16:10:36  <andythenorth> and revises README
16:10:52  <andythenorth> it's now 8 links, and a list of where all the files are :P
16:11:18  <andythenorth> numbered tables of contents are very bad for linkrot
16:13:06  <LordAro> but but section 4.2
16:16:37  <Eddi|zuHause> supermop_Home: servers have traditionally been very vary of newgrfs
16:18:07  <andythenorth> that's the list of where all the files are :P
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16:22:27  <andythenorth> 4.0 "Installing any 3rd party files into a 'shared' location has the advantage that you only need to do this step once, rather than copying the data files into all OpenTTD versions you have."
16:22:41  <andythenorth> 4.1 "Do NOT copy files included with OpenTTD into 'shared' directories (explained in the following sections) as sooner or later you will run into graphical glitches when using other versions of the game."
16:23:44  <andythenorth> oh, it means different things
16:23:48  * andythenorth was puzzled
16:24:03  <LordAro> it could be made clearer
16:27:16  <andythenorth> this is current state of my branch
16:27:24  <peter1138> Went to Tesco to buy loo roll and gnocchi. Came back £60 lighter :(
16:28:26  <Eddi|zuHause> that's some expensive toilet paper.
16:28:29  <LordAro> that's a lot of loo roll and gnocchi
16:28:37  <Eddi|zuHause> brexit panic drove the price up? :p
16:29:47  <andythenorth> stockpiling innit
16:30:37  <andythenorth> I feel like Installing and Running OpenTTD might be a bit misleading?
16:30:57  <andythenorth> "Installing OpenTTD is fairly straightforward." [followed by complicated instructions]
16:31:10  <andythenorth> isn't OpenTTD download, double click to run?
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16:32:32  <andythenorth> seems easier to follow
16:36:13  <peter1138> FFS, I just killed some boss on Doom. And in its place spawns... two bosses.
16:38:47  <andythenorth> Boom
16:39:08  <andythenorth> I remember the first time I completed Episode 1, and did the final teleport
16:39:20  <andythenorth> then got ripped to shreds in the end game animation :)
16:39:31  <peter1138> This is Doom 2016, heh.
16:39:50  <andythenorth> if anyone wanted to vary from playing games, this is a good book
16:40:17  <andythenorth> eh what?
16:40:30  <andythenorth> [OS X]: "To run the original soundtrack, you will need TiMidity and Freepats"
16:44:44  * andythenorth is playing the soundtrack now :P
16:44:49  <andythenorth> without any extra stuffs
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17:23:32  <frosch123> is osx still a thing?
17:23:43  <andythenorth> no
17:23:48  <andythenorth> I've updated the wiki a bit
17:23:54  <andythenorth> first I had to learn how to install OpenTTD :P
17:24:19  <frosch123> the last days i have seen multiple yt talks where people talk about windows, linux, android, and either mac or ios, but never both
17:25:14  <andythenorth> well it's easy for us, ios is not a thing
17:27:35  <andythenorth> how easy is it to understand this page?
17:28:58  <frosch123> someone inserted the first paragraph without deleting the others
17:29:21  <andythenorth> I somewhat improved the macOS guide
17:29:38  <frosch123> does osx have the bootstrap gui?
17:29:41  <TrueBrain> If you need to explain an installer, something else went wrong
17:30:03  <andythenorth> is the first-run experience all just a bit crap? :)
17:30:12  <andythenorth> I never noticed because I 'make run'
17:30:19  <andythenorth> and I've had the TTD graphics for 15 years :P
17:30:53  <andythenorth> Using OpenGFX base graphics: Consult the OpenGFX Readme for further instructions.
17:30:59  <andythenorth> links to
17:31:08  <andythenorth> could be more user friendly?
17:31:30  <frosch123> on windows and linux opengfx installs by default
17:32:01  <frosch123> i think the whole page is silly. noone will find that page before playing the game
17:32:29  <frosch123> it's probably okay to have a "how to install original basesets", but the rest is superfluous
17:32:49  <andythenorth> I got into it because I wanted to improve
17:33:27  <andythenorth> it's very long and complicated imho
17:33:33  <frosch123> so: 1. Installations -> run the installer 2. How to play with original basesets -> if you are an old fart and want your childhood memorises, copy these files to the locations as mentinoned in readme 4.2
17:33:44  <andythenorth> and special case for mac users?
17:33:45  <andythenorth> :P
17:33:51  <glx> yeah linux version has a bootstrap to get opengfx
17:34:04  <andythenorth> mac users just get a 'files not found' error
17:34:11  <glx> and windows installer has the option to download it
17:34:40  <glx> because nobody implemented that to the macOS version :)
17:34:52  <andythenorth> and we don't bundle gfx because?  filesize?  release cycle?  hassle?
17:34:59  <glx> remember we have no real macOS dev
17:35:32  <glx> we don't bundle it because it's useless to include it in each upgrade
17:35:54  <glx> once it's installed you don't need it, and you can upgrade it from the game
17:36:49  <frosch123> lol, did you see the last sentence of the "introduction"?
17:37:35  <frosch123> i think that originally refered to basesets for windows/dos palette. but somone changed it to platforms win/osx/linux
17:38:25  <glx> lol
17:39:16  <andythenorth> ha ha, I fixed 'Mac OS X' to 'macOS' there without noticing it's all nonsense :)
17:39:40  <andythenorth> frosch123: are you fixing it? o_O
17:40:19  <frosch123> no, i just assume you will delete it :)
17:41:09  <andythenorth> done :P
17:41:33  <andythenorth> it's nice that someone went to the effort of this image
17:41:37  <andythenorth> but I feel it adds nothing :P
17:42:05  <glx>
17:42:19  <glx> quite old
17:43:36  <glx> <-- this version used the image
17:46:51  <andythenorth> all this stuff about shared directories, what are they?
17:46:58  <andythenorth> and why would I move the config file?
17:47:16  <andythenorth> the mac disk image doesn't even include a config file
17:47:36  <glx> it has the "default" one
17:48:00  <glx> like other versions
17:48:09  <frosch123> every now an then people want a stand-alone installation on a usb drive they can use at work
17:48:24  <andythenorth> that's covered somewhere in there
17:48:31  <frosch123> they usally care about locations
17:48:45  <andythenorth> nah there's no .cfg in the bundle
17:49:00  <glx> I said the "default" one :)
17:49:17  <glx> ie not existing and using default values
17:49:46  <andythenorth> I am just trying to figure out how to explain that the config file needs to be moved
17:49:50  <andythenorth> was all :)
17:50:01  <andythenorth> I don't really understand the instructions in README very much
17:50:05  <andythenorth> and I never install OpenTTD
17:50:42  <andythenorth> me writing the instructions is blind leading blind :)
17:56:28  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Wirdal commented on issue #7592: Road vehicles don't balance between multiple loading bays
18:08:27  <andythenorth> so all platforms except mac have an installer?
18:08:34  <andythenorth> so README could just say 'run the installer'?
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18:13:43  <LordAro> andythenorth: linux doesn't
18:14:10  <LordAro> it has an archive, or preferably "download from your friendly local package manager"
18:21:41  <frosch123> it's okay to assume that people know how to use their os
18:21:59  <frosch123> the wiki should only explain unusual things
18:22:32  <frosch123> are mac people used to have installers?
18:22:40  <frosch123> hmm, i guess most people are used to have steam :p
18:23:04  <frosch123> how did the ottd foundation go?
18:28:03  <andythenorth> nowhere
18:28:15  <andythenorth> I asked if it was ok to contact free software europe people
18:28:17  <andythenorth> crickets
18:28:40  <andythenorth> most mac stuff is a dmg with 'drag to your disk'
18:33:04  <frosch123> ah, the damage format
18:36:59  <NGC3982> holy jesus playing factorio in 5120x1440 is a thing on it's own
18:38:30  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Eddi-z commented on issue #7592: Road vehicles don't balance between multiple loading bays
18:38:31  <frosch123> you are lucky that factories usually look better in landscape layout than in portrait
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18:46:58  <andythenorth> currently have this
18:47:14  <andythenorth> I figure on saying less, linking more :P
18:47:24  <andythenorth> we can always add things if people find a lack later
18:49:22  <andythenorth> after 4.0 I need to rewrite more :P
18:51:50  <frosch123> do you want feedback on it? and how? or better get done with it? :)
18:52:45  <andythenorth> it's not ready for PR yet
18:52:56  <andythenorth> but general direction feedback is useful
18:53:08  <andythenorth> and any suggestions of further deletions, or important omissions :)
18:53:18  <frosch123> ok, so i won't nitpick on individual sentenes
18:53:43  <andythenorth> nah, PR better for that :)
18:53:57  <andythenorth> or just PR, fix, force-push :P
18:55:09  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] JGRennison commented on issue #7592: Road vehicles don't balance between multiple loading bays
18:56:32  <frosch123> sometimes i am surprised that people added something to the readme
18:57:27  <frosch123> i guess move the "how to get some ai" to the installation section
18:57:32  <frosch123> imo delete the gs section
18:58:32  <andythenorth> I was thinking of rewriting everything about add-on content / mods
18:58:37  <frosch123> but ai installation is kind of stupid, you can't tell people to install xyz as with opengfx
18:58:38  <andythenorth> and calling it add-on content / mods
18:59:36  <frosch123> that is also fine, but ais are special since there is no default one included
18:59:56  <andythenorth> there is a thread about that
19:00:05  <frosch123> you can play ottd without newgrf or gs. but people often are confused about ais not working
19:00:31  <andythenorth> are there any AIs that work?
19:00:34  <andythenorth> :)
19:01:56  <frosch123> no idea, when people talk about ais here, they are usually developing one
19:02:55  <frosch123> new players are different to old players. new players think there is an economical challenge and ais
19:03:39  <andythenorth> AI contest
19:03:44  <andythenorth> top 3, pre-installed :P
19:04:22  <frosch123> make ottd phone home when an ai crashes
19:04:34  <frosch123> they pick the least-crashing ones
19:04:49  <andythenorth> just use a tracking pixel
19:04:58  <andythenorth> load a 1px png from a remote url
19:05:04  <andythenorth> no personal data
19:05:15  <andythenorth> don't read the IP addresses
19:06:26  <frosch123> what makes the forums more official than the wiki?
19:07:04  <Eddi|zuHause> why would that be a valid comparison?
19:09:42  <frosch123> i didn't want to nitpick sentences, but that one appears weird
19:10:02  <frosch123> oh, i didn't know there was a 4.3
19:11:04  <frosch123> imo delete section 8 completely
19:11:15  <andythenorth> I need to fix the wiki unofficialness
19:11:20  <andythenorth> I was confused :)
19:12:14  <frosch123> as for the credits section. i would prefer a, and adding more patchers to it
19:12:42  <andythenorth> we are growing some number of files in /
19:12:46  <andythenorth> rather than /docs
19:12:50  <andythenorth> probably fine?
19:12:58  <frosch123> yes, the interesting stuff is in /src
19:13:13  <andythenorth> isn't CONTRIBUTORS just set(every commit author)?
19:13:33  <andythenorth> ie. github already does it
19:13:43  <andythenorth>
19:14:05  <frosch123> i think it is fine to distinguish maintainers/developers and "external" contributors
19:14:25  <frosch123> github misses the people from the svn age
19:14:38  <frosch123> github misses the people not on github
19:14:47  <frosch123> and for some reason github also missed people on github
19:15:11  <andythenorth> ok
19:15:20  <andythenorth> I have deleted section 8
19:15:36  <andythenorth>
19:15:50  <andythenorth> CONTRIBUTORS will conflate for my auto-complete with CONTRIBUTING :)
19:16:10  <frosch123> <- at least i did not figure out why i was missing there
19:16:43  <andythenorth> ha yes
19:16:50  <LordAro> different email address?
19:17:03  <frosch123> my account is linked from the commit log
19:17:07  <andythenorth> I think the github index is broken
19:17:08  <andythenorth>
19:17:12  <frosch123> so, gh knows it's me
19:17:21  <andythenorth> if I click on your user in a commit, it says you have no commits
19:18:07  <andythenorth>
19:19:04  <andythenorth> and
19:19:43  <frosch123> LordAro: indeed, that repo has a weird email address for me
19:19:46  <frosch123> who imported that?
19:19:53  <LordAro> probably you :p
19:20:00  <frosch123>
19:20:05  <frosch123> for many of them
19:20:28  <LordAro> i think that's a github default for when there isn't an email address?
19:20:40  <LordAro> you'll need the actual checkout to see the actual authors, i think
19:20:52  <frosch123> i just cloned it, to see it
19:20:58  <andythenorth> rewrite history, force push? :P
19:21:00  <andythenorth> 'probably fine'
19:21:18  <LordAro> make a new repo, more like
19:21:24  <LordAro> it's otherwise untouched, right?
19:21:37  <frosch123> it had one pr
19:22:00  <frosch123> he, pm did a merge commit?
19:22:10  <LordAro> well then, definitely a new repo required :p
19:22:54  <frosch123> ok, reimport grfcodec then :)
19:25:04  <frosch123> all cloners are kind of here, so force-push is probably also fine
19:26:26  <frosch123> i planned to batch-convert all repos last week anyway
19:27:31  <andythenorth> most of readme is now a guide to your computer's filesystem :)
19:28:39  <frosch123> put a "if you were linked here, people want you to read section 4.2" at the top
19:28:48  <frosch123> (don't) :p
19:33:16  <andythenorth>
19:33:17  <andythenorth> :P
19:34:04  <milek7> 'Under Windows 98 and lower it is impossible to use a dedicated server; it will fail to start. Perhaps this is for the better because those OSes are not known for their stability.'
19:34:07  <milek7> possibly remove?
19:34:21  <frosch123> we deleted the whole section :p
19:34:34  <milek7> ah, ok
19:34:43  <frosch123> it all refers to old os
19:34:50  <frosch123> and i would not look for font stuff there
19:35:27  <frosch123> it's like the CERT portability guide lines
19:35:49  <frosch123> half of them are BS that must be burned with fire
19:36:14  <frosch123> working around bugs of compilers shipped in early 90's
19:36:36  <andythenorth> that section is gone :)
19:36:36  <andythenorth> I pushed
19:36:53  <andythenorth> not enough things get burned with fire :)
19:36:53  <andythenorth> it causes troubles
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19:51:54  <milek7> does os/2 port really still works? ;P
19:52:07  <glx> it used to
19:52:18  <glx> probably not tested for a long time now
19:53:39  <frosch123> last os/2 related commit seems to be from 2014
19:53:57  <frosch123> i guess the question is whehther there is a c++14 capable compiler
19:54:44  <frosch123> iirc there is one for dos, but none for win9x. so hard to extrapolate for os/2 :)
19:57:01  <milek7> curious, it seems there is,
19:59:16  <frosch123> haha, i think that is the guy who contributed that fix in 2014 :p
20:01:00  <frosch123> so, i claim, he only maintains gcc to be able to play ottd
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20:52:24  <supermop_Home> man all I did today was pay too much for a shirt
20:57:21  <andythenorth>
20:57:24  <andythenorth> ^ o_O
21:06:12  <nielsm> well, I'm just about out
21:06:14  <andythenorth> frosch123: any comments?
21:06:27  <nielsm> might not visit irc very much for the next two weeks :)
21:11:06  <frosch123> andythenorth: "adding" is troublesome
21:11:23  <frosch123> the content gui downloads stuff, but does not activate it
21:14:11  <frosch123> i guess 4.2 gets a lot shorter when deleting info about win < 7, and when putting stuff into a table
21:14:39  <frosch123> folder|win|linux|osx
21:14:46  <LordAro> nielsm: have fun!
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21:15:41  <frosch123> aw, the readme mentions "32bpp sets" :)
21:17:39  <nielsm> well abase and zbase do exist
21:18:00  <frosch123> yes, but it is not about those
21:18:19  <frosch123> it's about the old 32bpp stuff for ottd 0.6 - ottd 1.1
21:18:24  <frosch123> deleted in ottd 1.2
21:19:32  <nielsm> oh
21:19:40  <nielsm> yeah I wasn't around for that
21:19:51  <nielsm> anyway, I'm out
21:19:56  <frosch123> you missed some drama :)
21:19:58  <frosch123> bye
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22:08:40  <NGC3982>
22:08:42  <NGC3982> <3.
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