Log for #openttd on 16th November 2019:
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06:48:25  <andythenorth> o/
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06:52:19  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Floedekage commented on issue #7814: More track for the same cost
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07:58:15  <Eddi|zuHause> <andythenorth> so when do we fork the newgrf spec for jgrpp? <-- that doesn't make any sense
07:59:30  <andythenorth> fork might not be the right word
07:59:40  <andythenorth> add a variant?
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08:04:21  <andythenorth> it's similar to when TTDP was a concern
08:15:46  <peter1138> That's for JGR to do, not us.
08:18:02  <andythenorth> already done it looks like
08:18:08  <andythenorth> I was thinking about wiki
08:20:02  <Eddi|zuHause> we already had discussions about including patchpack stuff in the specs. that's not really the big problem though
08:20:33  <Eddi|zuHause> the big problem is, how to make newgrf coders use them, without losing the ability to load the same newgrfs in trunk (now and in the future)
08:22:22  <andythenorth> isn't the situation akin to when TTDP could no longer load OpenTTD grfs?
08:22:35  <Eddi|zuHause> no
08:23:01  <andythenorth> what differs?
08:23:24  <Eddi|zuHause> the target audience
08:26:04  <Eddi|zuHause> when openttd made the step towards grfv8 (which is, i believe, the point you refer to), TTDP had a miniscule following, and no active development anymore
08:27:40  <Eddi|zuHause> whereas with JGRPP, the userbase of that is still just a tiny fragment of the OTTD userbase
08:27:57  <Eddi|zuHause> plus, OTTD still has active development
08:28:12  <Eddi|zuHause> plus, none of the JGRPP changes are of any scale similar to grfv8
08:29:17  <Eddi|zuHause> so, it's not like it would be impossible to make a GRF that loads in both
08:33:38  <Eddi|zuHause> so, what's actually needed is a way to include the JGRPP-specific features in your GRF, that can be safely skipped in openttd versions that don't have them (yet)
08:34:04  <Eddi|zuHause> the specs technically have all the tools to achieve that
08:37:07  <andythenorth> I suspect that it's more likely grfs will just target jgr
08:37:25  <andythenorth> that will become interesting on bananas
08:38:47  <Eddi|zuHause> honestly, i find that rather unlikely
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08:50:58  <andythenorth> is that not the standard bias towards the existing?
08:51:20  <andythenorth> there's a cohort who still can't quite get over the way TTDP lost :P
08:55:44  <peter1138> Is there?
08:58:13  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth commented on issue #7814: More track for the same cost
08:59:02  <andythenorth> something about bridgeheads or bridges on tunnels or programmable signals or something
08:59:06  * andythenorth doesn't know
08:59:27  <andythenorth> TTDP is still alive also
09:01:44  * andythenorth never played it, was it good?
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09:47:05  <Samu> hi
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09:57:42  <Samu> weird stuff
09:57:53  <Samu> that savegame on 1.10 beta
09:58:09  <Samu> gives me a higher average ms for road vehicle ticks
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10:22:19  <peter1138> Is it a release build?
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10:23:23  <Samu> downloaded from the website
10:23:39  <Samu>
10:23:43  <Samu> i get 74 ms
10:23:59  <Samu> the builds I builds with visual studio give me 64 ms
10:24:08  <Samu> but they're not 1.10
10:25:44  <Samu> im trying to build 1.10 myself
10:25:47  <Samu> will test
10:30:40  <Samu> yeah, i get less ms with my own builds than the official builds
10:30:46  <Samu> why's that?
10:30:59  <Samu> just tested
10:40:47  <Samu>
10:44:05  <LordAro> curious
10:44:32  <LordAro> it's possible that visual studio is being "clever" and optimising it specifically for your computer, but that's unlikely
10:59:05  <Samu> is there a hotkey for opening the frame rate window?
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11:16:41  <nielsm> no
11:24:17  <Samu> i made a topic
11:24:19  <Samu> lel
11:24:30  <Samu> wondering who will post
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11:44:27  <Samu> @calc 512 / 74
11:44:27  <DorpsGek> Samu: 6.91891891892
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14:23:20  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro approved pull request #7835: Fix e3511ecac: don't use bash specific syntax (again)
14:23:28  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro merged pull request #7835: Fix e3511ecac: don't use bash specific syntax (again)
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14:31:55  <frosch123> ah, that's where the "again" in bash originates from :)
14:32:39  <glx> yeah probably
14:39:33  <andythenorth> hmm now what?
14:39:37  <andythenorth> grfs?
14:39:40  <andythenorth> new website?
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14:41:31  <supermop_Home> hello
14:42:15  <andythenorth> yo
14:42:22  <andythenorth> perfect timing
14:42:57  <andythenorth> supermop_Home: should I do one of these?  I did DVTs
14:44:09  <supermop_Home> sure, unless you want mk2s to get a yellow panel automatically when on in
14:44:40  <supermop_Home> if you use shunting patch dvts / etc become pretty functional
14:44:51  <andythenorth> has to be an engine to lead the train, so it can't just be a sprite change
14:44:53  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i'm not sure what's the difference
14:45:04  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: just a generation thing
14:45:13  <supermop_Home> I will say tho dbso less interesting than dvt as it is not pointy
14:45:20  <andythenorth> yeah, that was my though
14:45:23  <andythenorth> thought *
14:45:25  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: if you can reuse the DVT code, then just draw it?
14:45:31  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: exactly
14:46:05  <andythenorth> supermop_Home: o_O
14:46:12  <andythenorth> I'd have to draw the damn thing though :P
14:46:34  <FLHerne> andythenorth: Instead of it being a loco, you could always just flip the consist using grf magic :P
14:46:43  <supermop_Home> it's been a while since I used shunting patch, but I recall that trains reversing with a regular wagon forward are limited to a very low shunting speed
14:46:43  <andythenorth> ouch no
14:46:58  <andythenorth> blue pullman it is then :P
14:47:03  <andythenorth> that's like an hour of drawing :P
14:47:06  <FLHerne> (remember those UKRS2 railmotors?)
14:47:21  <supermop_Home> whereas a dvt on ends would be a neat way to differentiate those trains you want to be push-pull
14:47:24  <andythenorth> or should I just do a Blue Pullman as precursor to HST?
14:47:40  <andythenorth> it wouldn't be fast though, just different
14:47:58  <FLHerne> andythenorth: With the current DVT-as-loco, does the consist still get visually flipped when reversing? Would spoil the effect a bit
14:48:05  <andythenorth> no it doesn't flip
14:48:25  <andythenorth> I don't get involved in shuffling train sprites around, current code is already at limit of complexity
14:48:27  <FLHerne> I know it's easy to disable for a single vehicle, wasn't sure if the whole train can
14:48:35  <andythenorth> if we want consist flip, game should do it
14:48:36  <FLHerne> Ok, nice :-)
14:48:39  <Eddi|zuHause> FLHerne: the consist as a whole will still flip, but you can use newgrf tricks to hide that
14:48:39  <andythenorth> it's a level beyond newgrf
14:48:52  <FLHerne> Oh, I think I read your answer backwar
14:48:55  <andythenorth> sorry :)
14:49:00  <andythenorth> it behaves vanilla
14:49:06  <supermop_Home> maybe i'll try shunting patch again with these dvts
14:49:37  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 updated pull request #7270: Introduce CMake (and removing all other project-related code)
14:49:40  <andythenorth> I'll do a gen 4 version
14:50:04  <glx> nic conflicts with $Id$ removal :)
14:50:08  <glx> *nice
14:50:09  <FLHerne> Eddi|zuHause: Yeah, but that's a lot of magic property-switching rather than just setting a flag :-/
14:50:40  <Eddi|zuHause> FLHerne: yeah, the magic flag wasn't implemented yet. it needs some internal restructuring to handle cycling through wagons backwards
14:51:36  <supermop_Home> i'll have to abandon my almost fully built desert steeltown game
14:51:52  <Eddi|zuHause> FLHerne: particularly, moving must flip between cycling forwards and backwards, but newgrf callbacks and stuff must always cycle forwards
14:51:59  <andythenorth> supermop_Home: I'll have to send you a grf :P
14:52:04  <andythenorth> no bundles any more :)
14:52:45  <Eddi|zuHause> FLHerne: i believe frosch123 once had enthusiams to solve that, but then was met with a wall of "... but it must also support X"
14:52:59  * andythenorth wonders how it could be abstracted
14:53:01  <FLHerne> Business as usual, then
14:53:09  <andythenorth> reversing a list is....pretty vanilla :P
14:53:46  <andythenorth> where we doing VehicleVariants?
14:53:53  <andythenorth> or did I make that unappealing :(
14:53:57  <supermop_Home> just merge the shunting patch, lost wagons and low speed collisions and all
14:53:58  <andythenorth> were / where /s
14:54:08  <andythenorth> and a borderline toxic author
14:54:11  <andythenorth> always goes well
14:54:39  <FLHerne> I'd have thought the obvious thing would be to have a "don't reverse consist" flag on the leading engine, and I don't really see how that could be hacked into "...and also I want ponies"
14:54:52  <FLHerne> Well, I suppose 'do magically reverse consist'
14:55:10  <andythenorth> /me can instantly think of things
14:55:19  <andythenorth> like where does the tail light go?
14:55:19  <frosch123>
14:55:38  <FLHerne> Agh
14:55:48  <andythenorth> supermop_Home: so if I draw the cab car, I might as well include this?,_last_down_Bristol_Pullman,_arriving_Bristol_Temple_Meads_5.5.1973_Scans712_(10510870995).jpg
14:55:48  <frosch123> i don't think i published that old patch on gh yet
14:56:41  <FLHerne> Oh, and I guess one might wish to force it with an order
14:56:52  <FLHerne> For 'reverse into a siding'
14:57:14  <FLHerne> And then you need a property to determine how fast the train can go backwards
14:57:40  <Eddi|zuHause> FLHerne: that's more like shunting, though. and order list is already overloaded
14:57:49  <FLHerne> Eddi|zuHause: Well, yeah
14:59:24  <Eddi|zuHause> FLHerne: i'd declare that "out of scope"
15:01:32  <andythenorth> hmm steep slopes are too hard to draw
15:01:39  <andythenorth> pixels not suited to it
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15:10:13  * andythenorth sacks that cab car idea
15:10:46  <Eddi|zuHause> just make it a flat front?
15:13:12  <supermop_Home> on these old railway clearing house maps where every tiny hamlet seems to have 1 or two stations...
15:13:46  <supermop_Home> lots of towns also seem to have a little siding terminal named "(village) Goods"
15:14:25  <supermop_Home> were they delivering trainloads of manufactured products to all of these small towns?
15:14:42  <supermop_Home> or did these just serve some local light industry /agriculture
15:14:57  <Eddi|zuHause> ... what?
15:15:13  <supermop_Home>,_Chorlton,_Heaton_Mersey_&_Northenden_RJD_149.jpg
15:16:24  <Eddi|zuHause> i would assume some train making its round leaving single wagons behind
15:17:05  <Eddi|zuHause> and sporadically some farmer ordering a year's supply of fertilizer or stuff
15:19:11  <supermop_Home> … i can see why they ripped most of this up in the 60s
15:19:12  <michi_cc> supermop_Home: When most of these stations where built, a truck looked like (lorry from 1896, diagramm from 1903).
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15:19:37  <michi_cc> You don't t need to transport that much to make the railway seem superior.
15:21:14  <supermop_Home> i'm thinking more in terms of the time and effort to couple and decouple wagons everywhere
15:21:52  <supermop_Home> it seems like even by 1903 passenger traffic would be such you'd only be able to do this in the middle of the night
15:23:06  <FLHerne> supermop_Home: Pretty much every station used to have its own goods yard or siding
15:23:48  <FLHerne> Used for coal, fertilizer, agricultural products, whatever
15:23:57  <supermop_Home> if they'd had containers and little gantry cranes at each back then maybe more would survive
15:24:08  <Eddi|zuHause> supermop_Home: branch lines had combined passenger/freight trains
15:24:29  <FLHerne> There were a lot of loops, so it was quite easy to recess freight trains between passenger runs
15:26:32  <andythenorth> wagons were also storage
15:27:18  <FLHerne> supermop_Home: See
15:28:05  <FLHerne> supermop_Home: Pick any random local station
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15:28:47  <FLHerne> (I picked Newthorpe, East Leake, Mickleover)
15:29:07  <FLHerne> All but the very smallest have a short freight loop and/or a couple of sidings
15:33:38  <andythenorth> Easte Leake!
15:33:53  * andythenorth considers gypsum
15:44:58  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] spnda opened issue #57: GRF integer parameters can be given negative values.
15:50:22  <FLHerne> ^ that looks like it's also an OTTD bug
15:50:36  <FLHerne> (I assume they shouldn't be able to crash the game)
16:02:38  <supermop_Home> andythenorth: drywalltown?
16:03:43  <andythenorth> :P
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16:56:30  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] LordAro commented on issue #57: GRF integer parameters can be given negative values.
17:00:21  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] spnda commented on issue #57: GRF integer parameters can be given negative values.
17:00:24  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] spnda closed issue #57: GRF integer parameters can be given negative values.
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17:05:48  <spnda> Hey, should I reopen my issue form OpenTTD/nml to OpenTTD/OpenTTD?
17:06:09  <spnda>
17:11:34  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] LordAro commented on issue #57: GRF integer parameters can be given negative values.
17:11:34  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] LordAro reopened issue #57: GRF integer parameters can be given negative values.
17:17:19  <FLHerne> spnda: It's separate bugs in both of them, really
17:17:44  <FLHerne> NML shouldn't allow it, but OTTD shouldn't crash either (after all, there are NFO grfs...)
17:18:10  <spnda> Probably, yes. I'll reopen the NML issue aswell. I'm about to submit one on the OpenTTD repository aswell.
17:18:33  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] spnda opened issue #7836: Negativ Integer values for GRF Parameters crashes the game
17:38:04  <FLHerne> I was thinking of having another go at a multiplayer game but with UKRS2 this time
17:46:44  <FLHerne> ^did that, started server
17:46:58  <FLHerne> "Casual UK-ish server"
17:47:21  <FLHerne> ping supermop_Home, Eddi|zuHause, andythenorth :P
17:47:47  <Eddi|zuHause> what do i have to do with that?
17:48:21  * andythenorth can't play :)
17:50:57  <FLHerne> andythenorth: Sorry, I realized a problem, should be back
17:51:12  <FLHerne> Eddi|zuHause: Sorry, ISTR playing multiplayer with you before
17:51:17  <FLHerne> Maybe I have names crossed
17:52:04  <Eddi|zuHause> i've only ever played multiplayer once, and that was on brianettas server
17:53:44  <FLHerne> Bleh, now I found another issue...
17:53:57  * FLHerne awaits safe ingame newgrf fiddling
17:55:16  <supermop_Home> ate dim sum
17:55:33  <supermop_Home> casual server?
17:55:38  <supermop_Home> what version?
17:57:54  <supermop_Home> im down fwiw
17:58:22  <FLHerne> 1.9.3
17:58:32  <supermop_Home> DVTs?
17:58:39  <FLHerne> andythenorth/supermop_Home: Should be fixed and running [again]
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18:45:48  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] DorpsGek pushed 1 commits to master
18:45:48  <DorpsGek_III>   - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
18:55:40  <andythenorth> hmm
18:57:10  <andythenorth> how fast for this?
18:57:17  <andythenorth> IRL 15-25mph
18:57:28  * andythenorth thinks 45mph :P
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19:26:56  <TrueBrain> glx: :)
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19:43:31  <LordAro> huzzah
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