Log for #openttd on 23rd November 2019:
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07:42:38  <andythenorth> o/
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08:01:37  <andythenorth> err
08:01:51  <andythenorth> what's the version of a grf if it's not on a tag?
08:02:04  <andythenorth> the revision is trivially the rev count, we decided
08:02:13  <andythenorth> but is the version x.y.zM?
08:02:17  <andythenorth> or x.y.z-rev?
08:02:23  <andythenorth> or x.y.z-hash
08:02:28  <andythenorth> or rev?
08:02:33  <andythenorth> or date?
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08:07:52  <Wolf01> So... Transport Fever 2...
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08:11:21  <Wolf01> andythenorth: do you have some LBG/metallic technic corrugated pipe? :P
08:11:41  <andythenorth> I think I do somewhere
08:11:56  <andythenorth> got boxes of random parts in a cupboard
08:12:25  <Wolf01> I only have 2L bits of it... I need some 6L and TLG doesn't want to sell them to me
08:14:16  <andythenorth> bricklink?
08:14:28  <Wolf01> Yeah... but not for 2 pieces
08:15:50  <Wolf01> Hmmm, it seem I have 6 of them.. where?
08:17:13  <Wolf01> Oh, there...
08:18:49  <Wolf01> Rebrickable told me "there", but where is there?
08:28:16  <andythenorth> F1 racer has some in the engine?
08:28:24  <andythenorth> I recall because my kids smashed it up
08:28:47  <andythenorth>
08:29:01  <andythenorth> Wolf01: ^
08:31:19  <Wolf01> 9L
08:31:36  <andythenorth> knife
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08:31:40  <andythenorth> I've cut tube
08:31:59  <Wolf01> I don't like to cut tubes because I might want to rebuild sets
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08:34:51  <Wolf01> I need to find where I put this one
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08:57:10  <andythenorth> quak
08:58:29  <frosch123> moo
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09:04:34  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro approved pull request #7840: Fix #7836: check coherency of newgrf parameter min/max
09:05:14  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro dismissed a review for pull request #7000: Some NewGRF variables concerning railtypes
09:05:42  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on pull request #7000: Some NewGRF variables concerning railtypes
09:05:52  <Wolf01> Cat wrote "         l.,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"
09:08:53  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro dismissed a review for pull request #7286: Add #2155: newheightmapgame command
09:17:26  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro approved pull request #7424: Add: Kdtree for AirportGetNearestTown
09:24:13  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on pull request #7486: Fix: AI/GS settings with the flag SCRIPTCONFIG_RANDOM could be altered after loading from a savegame.
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09:35:18  <andythenorth> I can't test this, no Windows
09:36:05  <andythenorth> this is tested and works, someone else could do with reading the diff
09:55:52  <andythenorth> oops
09:56:04  * andythenorth tried to run python processing pool with 4036 workers :P
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10:05:56  <TrueBrain> <- andythenorth, it works ! :D (well, it works ish ... still lots to do, but at least I can serve a normal page now :D)
10:09:47  <TrueBrain> sadly there is no way to know how much it is costing, except for letting it run for a day or so to see
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10:15:37  <andythenorth> TrueBrain: hurrah!
10:15:49  <andythenorth> and you got a subdomain!
10:16:04  <andythenorth> I don't much like the path to my AWS bucket :P
10:16:05  <andythenorth>
10:16:16  <andythenorth> but I had an idea for Bananas 2 publishing the docs :P
10:17:50  <TrueBrain> of course I have a subdomain .. even a valid certificate for it :P Otherwise it would all be a bit weird :D
10:17:56  <TrueBrain> but that was easier than I expected
10:18:00  <TrueBrain> (this is not hosted from an S3 btw)
10:18:17  <andythenorth> ec2 instance?
10:18:18  <TrueBrain> strictly seen the website can, but having it in a docker makes it easier for people to work on it :)
10:18:30  <TrueBrain> NLB -> ALB -> ECS -> Docker instance
10:18:32  <TrueBrain> to be exact :)
10:18:36  <TrueBrain> NLB -> ALB -> ECS -> EC2 -> Docker instance
10:18:37  <TrueBrain> I guess :P
10:18:40  <andythenorth> acronym :P
10:18:43  <frosch123> so the certificate mails were actually legit?
10:18:47  <frosch123> i thought they were scam
10:18:48  <TrueBrain> it emailed?
10:18:48  <TrueBrain> ugh
10:19:09  <TrueBrain> frosch123: the comodo ones?
10:19:12  <TrueBrain> that is unrelated :)
10:19:39  <frosch123> well, there were two similar mails from different addresses
10:19:44  <frosch123> one with a zip attachment
10:20:01  <frosch123> i never got a certifiate myself, but it looked dubious to me :p
10:20:02  <TrueBrain> don't know what the PositiveSSL Wildcard is about tbh
10:20:11  <TrueBrain> owh, they are both Comodo
10:20:23  <TrueBrain> but yeah, they are legit; they are still used on the old infrastructure
10:20:39  * andythenorth had the idea to have Bananas 2 build grfs :P
10:21:09  <TrueBrain> but no, the certificate on the URL above is an AWS certificate
10:21:17  <TrueBrain> as doing letsencrypt was too complex for me :(
10:21:26  <TrueBrain> not that it matters .. should both be free
10:21:30  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: not a bad idea
10:21:32  <TrueBrain> now build it :)
10:21:46  <TrueBrain> I always wanted that all content on BaNaNaS also had their source attached
10:21:51  <TrueBrain> but I got flamed for that 15 years ago :P
10:22:04  <TrueBrain> turned out artists don't work like that, or something
10:22:11  <andythenorth> fuck em
10:22:19  <andythenorth> I don't actually mean that
10:22:24  <frosch123> they still do not work like that, andy is the only exception
10:22:49  <TrueBrain> that is something I learnt the hard way during those 15 years ..
10:23:08  <TrueBrain> as an engineer it is hard to understand that mindset; and I am sure they don't understand my mindset in this :D
10:23:14  <TrueBrain> it is not a complaint btw; just an observation
10:23:18  <andythenorth> frosch123 has that quote
10:23:31  <frosch123> the cliff stoll one?
10:23:36  <andythenorth> probably
10:23:52  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: but you can think about BaNaNaS2 all you want; I would just be happy to have a small up-to-date website where people can upload their content :)
10:23:56  <TrueBrain> that is all I ask for :D
10:24:17  <andythenorth> "artists think he's a great programmer, programmers think he's a great artist"
10:24:31  <andythenorth> it's quite brutal
10:25:01  <andythenorth> applies to me, V and pikka
10:25:44  <andythenorth> I arrived at the bananas 2 idea because of translations
10:25:58  <andythenorth> I don't want to give a random web service full commit access to my repos
10:26:23  <andythenorth> so I wondered about having the translator checkout my repo as a remote, then build it
10:26:51  <andythenorth> I'd never need the translations locally
10:27:13  <andythenorth> we could also ditch the eints database and just commit translations directly to git
10:27:25  <andythenorth> and we could build a rev automatically and release it whenever translations update
10:27:36  <andythenorth> instead of waiting months until the author does a release for new strings
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10:29:52  <TrueBrain> right, time to destroy the AWS deployment again :)
10:30:22  <TrueBrain> tomorrow this will show me how much this would cost, give or take
10:30:23  <andythenorth> is it repeatable?
10:30:33  <TrueBrain> owh yeah, it is fully Infrastructure as Code
10:30:41  <andythenorth> cattle or pets? :P
10:30:41  <TrueBrain> so I can deploy this when-ever how-ever-often I want
10:30:51  <andythenorth> super
10:31:17  <SpComb> fully destroyable apart from the bit that isn't
10:31:20  <TrueBrain> people doing pets should be killed
10:31:21  <TrueBrain> :P
10:31:35  <SpComb> it's a tradeoff
10:31:57  <TrueBrain> good thing about AWS, you can use CDK (or CloudFormation) .. that tracks the resources you created :)
10:31:59  <TrueBrain> so happy with that :D
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10:32:18  <andythenorth> we might have made a pet out of Ansible :P
10:32:21  <andythenorth> oof
10:34:17  <TrueBrain> I like nginx .. max memory usage was <1% .. I reserved 10% .. :D
10:34:32  <SpComb> also, NLB -> ALB? Are you using the lambda hacks to get a static UP or what?
10:34:54  <SpComb> *IO
10:34:56  <SpComb> *IP
10:35:13  <TrueBrain> well, I still have to add that hack, but yes
10:35:17  <TrueBrain> as I also have to hack IPv6 in there
10:35:24  <TrueBrain> as freaking NLB doesn't support IPv6 :(
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10:35:42  <TrueBrain> so in reality it is (NLB + (2x EC2)) -> ALB
10:35:44  <TrueBrain> but who is counting
10:36:08  <SpComb> huh, what are the instances doing
10:36:13  <TrueBrain> routing IPv6
10:36:16  <TrueBrain> like an NLB
10:36:38  <SpComb> hr, NAT?
10:36:44  <TrueBrain> no; you never NAT IPv6
10:36:51  <SpComb> if yoi just need static IPv4 for ALB you can use AWS Global Accelerator, but I think it's also IPv4-only
10:36:58  <TrueBrain> it is
10:37:04  <TrueBrain> which is really shitty
10:37:18  <TrueBrain> so possibly I run IPv4 directly via ALB (and with GA)
10:37:29  <TrueBrain> but the IPv6 flow will be shitty (read: unmanaged)
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10:38:13  <TrueBrain> can't believe that in 2019 IPv6 is not considered commodity
10:38:16  <TrueBrain> but okay :)
10:38:22  <SpComb> lack of IPv6 for NLB is a little surprising
10:38:30  <TrueBrain> it really is
10:38:37  <SpComb> given that AWS has AFAIK the best VPC support for IPv6
10:38:40  <TrueBrain> main issue is that we have 2 services running on non-HTTP(S)
10:38:47  <TrueBrain> 1 UDP, 1 TCP
10:38:58  <TrueBrain> for that I sadly need the NLB to route into the ECS
10:39:21  <TrueBrain> lucky for me, they are both on different hostnames
10:40:12  <TrueBrain> in the early days that sounded like a good idea, not having them forced on the same IP .. they have been for years .. so I hope it also really works them not being on the same IP :P
10:40:19  <TrueBrain> it should (tm) :)
10:40:44  <TrueBrain> now I come to think of it, it might be cheaper to just skip the NLB, and run both IPv4 and IPv6 for the TCP/UDP on the EC2
10:41:20  <SpComb> what are you using to LB the IPv6 traffic?
10:41:32  <TrueBrain> nginx
10:41:50  <TrueBrain> (as that is the only one that can do UDP LB wit Proxy Protocol .. can you believe that? No other piece of software does that .....)
10:41:50  <SpComb> right, TCP/UDP proxy
10:42:07  <TrueBrain> HAProxy refuses to add proxy protocol support for UDP proxy
10:42:11  <TrueBrain> it is unbelievable :(
10:42:28  <TrueBrain> (I might be a bit frustrated how my experience is so far :P)
10:42:28  <SpComb> proxy protocol is pretty esoteric, never even wanted to use it
10:42:36  <andythenorth> hmm...why is Iron Horse grf so big filesize?
10:42:41  <andythenorth> that will be eating bandwidth :(
10:42:43  <andythenorth> 19.5MB
10:42:59  <andythenorth> sprites are only 4MB
10:43:03  <TrueBrain> SpComb: we need it, basically, as for the UDP we need to know the source IP
10:43:15  <TrueBrain> proxy protocol is used more and more in these setups
10:43:17  <andythenorth> oh wow 18MB of nfo
10:43:22  <TrueBrain> it is pretty nice tbh .. no stupid HTTP header and shit
10:43:22  <andythenorth> wtf?
10:44:09  <andythenorth> 400k loc
10:44:21  <TrueBrain> our UDP is most special: you register to the master server, and the updater starts to query the source IP of how you registered to the masterserver + port in the registration packet
10:44:45  <TrueBrain> it is really difficult to bring this to the cloud, as I found out :)
10:45:41  <SpComb> for IPv4 yoi can avoid it because you have a proper network LB with source address preservation
10:45:41  <TrueBrain> but okay, it mostly means I have to write a lambda that updates the nginx configuration when ECS changes
10:45:52  <TrueBrain> yup .. NLB is exactly what I need
10:46:06  <TrueBrain> but ... 5+% of our users can't use IPv4 :(
10:46:13  <SpComb> ?
10:46:22  <TrueBrain> we have a lot of IPv6 only users
10:46:31  <SpComb> hard to believe but ok
10:46:38  <TrueBrain> (well, CNAT on IPv4, but you can't host a server like that)
10:46:45  <SpComb> fair enough
10:46:58  <TrueBrain> you do know large parts of Asia no longer support their users with IPv4, right? :)
10:46:59  <SpComb> does it let you host an IPv6 server? :D
10:47:02  <TrueBrain> (has been for a few years btw)
10:47:07  <TrueBrain> yes
10:47:23  <TrueBrain> 10+% of our traffic is IPv6 btw
10:47:39  <TrueBrain> but I guess that happens if you support IPv6 for 12+ years now
10:47:46  <TrueBrain> and for some reason, AWS doesn't on their NLB :P
10:48:48  <SpComb> I wonder if you could hack IPVS to work in an AWS VPC without SNAT... maybe with your own EC2 backend instances and funny routing rules, but probably out of the question for ECS
10:49:17  <TrueBrain> ECS runs on EC2 in our case; at least till Fargate supports filesystems :P
10:49:50  <TrueBrain> and we also run NAT Instance (not NAT Gateway, as fuck that is expensive)
10:50:01  <TrueBrain> so if I change the NAT Instance to use IPVS, that might just work tbh
10:50:03  <TrueBrain> (for IPv4)
10:50:07  <TrueBrain> IPv6 is a bit more difficult
10:50:21  <SpComb> why is IPv4 easier?
10:50:43  <TrueBrain> ECS runs on a local IP, so all traffic is sent back to the NAT Instance
10:50:48  <TrueBrain> IPVS picks it up from there
10:50:58  <TrueBrain> those routes are easier to configure, basically
10:51:05  <TrueBrain> IPv6 ... is more difficult
10:51:16  <TrueBrain> as the ECS EC2 instances will also get a public IPv6
10:51:21  <TrueBrain> (at least, if you follow spec)
10:51:30  <SpComb> doesn't it let you set up an instance route for IPv6?
10:51:47  <TrueBrain> it does; but it would break spec
10:51:50  <TrueBrain> not sure what the harm is
10:53:05  <TrueBrain> main issue for IPv4 and IPVS I guess would be that the public IP of the IPVS also needs to be on the ECS EC2 instances (otherwise the kernel will disregard the packet)
10:53:19  <TrueBrain> not difficult, just needs configuration, I guess
10:53:28  <TrueBrain> not a bad idea, need to think about it a bit, if it is doable :)
10:53:36  <TrueBrain> I just hope AWS announced IPv6 support for NLB next week :P
10:54:25  <TrueBrain> I still don't really understand how NLB works in AWS .. so little documentation how it works on a technical level :P
10:54:48  <SpComb> yeah, IPv6 UDP LB is certainly going to be painful on AWS one way or another until they bring official NLB support
10:54:56  <TrueBrain> yup
10:55:10  <SpComb> time to upgrade the master server registration to use HTTP
10:55:15  <TrueBrain> the easiest solution by far is to not have the ECS in the private subnet, but in the public .. but that is just wrong
10:55:21  <TrueBrain> I honestly considered it
10:55:32  <TrueBrain> I even considered a small components that rewrites the UDP to HTTP on the edge
10:56:12  <TrueBrain> (as that would also mean strictly seen I could use API Gateway and Lambdas :P)
10:56:30  <SpComb> tbh I would prefer that over an UDP proxy, assuming that having the clients switch to HTTP was on the roadmap
10:56:45  <TrueBrain> OpenTTD has a roadmap? :P
10:57:06  <SpComb> up to your Product Owner :)
10:57:18  <TrueBrain> but yeah, it shouldn't be hard to change the master server registration to HTTP
10:57:23  <TrueBrain> we already use HTTP for downloads
10:57:31  <TrueBrain> I just wish we could make it HTTPS
10:57:34  <TrueBrain> but we have no SSL library
10:57:50  <SpComb> ouch
10:58:16  <SpComb> NSA is logging all the openttd multiplayer chats right now
10:58:30  <TrueBrain> well, the network protocol itself is also unencrypted yes, so yeah
10:58:50  <TrueBrain> my main issue with an UDP -> HTTP component btw is that it can easily be DoS'd
10:59:02  <TrueBrain> so it requires some engineering to prevent that
10:59:28  <TrueBrain> but if I do that for both the UDP and TCP, it would mean I don't need the NLB
10:59:50  <SpComb> more DoS:able than the master server itself?
11:00:02  <TrueBrain> and I guess I could put them in an Auto Scaling Group, and have a lambda to update DNS ..
11:01:56  <TrueBrain> okay, something to think about :)
11:02:02  <TrueBrain> tnx SpComb
11:02:10  <TrueBrain> never considered something we did 15 years ago to be difficult :P
11:03:42  <TrueBrain> would be nice if their Global Accelerator also supported IPv6, I guess :)
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11:30:24  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro approved pull request #7595: Possible fix for #7430: when train visits station, only reset time_since_pickup if has room to load
11:31:25  <andythenorth> hmm
11:31:49  <andythenorth> Horse is currently 19MB
11:31:56  <andythenorth> it has one roster of vehicles
11:32:11  <andythenorth> I'm intending to do 5 rosters, so extrapolating gives 100MB
11:32:21  <andythenorth> OpenTTD is 7.5MB
11:32:27  <andythenorth> something is wrong in Gotham
11:33:13  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro approved pull request #7747: Feature: Configurable ending year
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11:41:43  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro requested changes for pull request #7817: Feature: Topview screenshot (a.k.a minimap)
11:45:32  <andythenorth> oh I forgot this one
11:45:32  <andythenorth>
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12:20:29  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on pull request #7730: Change: Use vehicle model age for station rating calculation
12:25:29  <Pikka> what what
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12:40:33  <andythenorth> what what what
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13:11:45  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Awizonosz opened issue #7842: Crash on one my save in every version of OpenTTD
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13:14:50  <andythenorth> hmm
13:15:15  <andythenorth> Wolf01: on a heavy wrecker / tow truck, what part shall I attach to the end of the winch line? :P
13:15:32  <andythenorth> hook?  Or pin joiner?
13:17:29  <Wolf01> Metal hook if you have it
13:18:10  <andythenorth> unrealistic but the most boss?
13:18:36  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on issue #7842: Crash on one my save in every version of OpenTTD
13:19:04  <andythenorth> hmm looks like IRL has snap hooks, like giant carabiners
13:20:47  <Wolf01> making this?
13:21:04  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro merged pull request #7840: Fix #7836: check coherency of newgrf parameter min/max
13:21:05  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro closed issue #7836: Negativ Integer values for GRF Parameters crashes the game
13:21:35  <Wolf01> I'm actually making this one, with different colors, more black and DBG
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13:23:58  <andythenorth> quite rad
13:24:57  <Wolf01> I already spent over 200€ on it, and used parts from 3 mercedes arocs and other big sets
13:27:16  <LordAro> interesting, that save seems to cause an infinite loop
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13:43:49  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Awizonosz commented on issue #7842: Crash on one my save in every version of OpenTTD
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13:50:55  <LordAro> where are crash files put on Windows?
13:52:06  <glx> next to openttd.exe, or in documents
13:52:22  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on issue #7842: Crash on one my save in every version of OpenTTD
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13:55:33  <glx> hmm the screenshot doesn't show a crash but a hang it seems
13:55:51  <LordAro> quite possibly
13:55:59  <glx> I think its (doesn't respond) in the title bar
13:56:02  <LordAro> certainly what i'm getting, but on a different date to them
14:01:35  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/website] glx22 commented on pull request #111:  Add: 'Developer Files' section on download pages
14:02:06  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Awizonosz commented on issue #7842: Crash on one my save in every version of OpenTTD
14:02:43  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/website] LordAro approved pull request #111:  Add: 'Developer Files' section on download pages
14:03:00  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/website] LordAro merged pull request #111:  Add: 'Developer Files' section on download pages
14:03:46  <glx> hmm old crashlog, useless because overflowed by news messages
14:04:35  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] LordAro commented on pull request #64: Fix: enable VT100 sequences on windows
14:04:40  <LordAro> didn't we fix that?
14:04:52  <glx> it's a 1.9.1 crashlog
14:05:00  <LordAro> oh, definitely unrelated then
14:05:37  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] LordAro approved pull request #63: Allow PLY to generate parsing/lexing tables.
14:06:16  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] LordAro approved pull request #61: Add: debug_print for GRF parameters
14:07:52  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] LordAro commented on pull request #59: Simplify pillow imports and version detection
14:10:18  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] LordAro approved pull request #60: Avoid duplicating rail/road/tramtype table code
14:10:33  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] LordAro merged pull request #56: Add: regression workflow for PR and push to master
14:11:00  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] glx22 commented on pull request #64: Fix: enable VT100 sequences on windows
14:11:10  <LordAro> glx: NML is missing review requirements on PRs, btw
14:11:35  <glx> easy to add
14:12:13  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] LordAro commented on pull request #64: Fix: enable VT100 sequences on windows
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14:12:51  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on issue #7842: Crash on one my save in every version of OpenTTD
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14:14:26  <glx> I think review requirement is now added
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14:17:40  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Awizonosz commented on issue #7842: Crash on one my save in every version of OpenTTD
14:18:43  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] glx22 merged pull request #61: Add: debug_print for GRF parameters
14:20:58  <glx> ha so it's not a crash
14:21:31  <LordAro> interesting that it does eventually resolve itself though
14:21:37  <LordAro> so not actually an infinite loop
14:21:59  <glx> big map with many stations ?
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14:22:26  <LordAro> well that's part of it, for sure
14:23:02  <glx> but I though linkgraph was threaded to not impact the game
14:23:26  <LordAro> it is, but something is waiting for the thread to complete still
14:23:27  <glx> well maybe if it takes really too long that may happen
14:32:02  <glx> hmm what happens if recalc interval is increased ?
14:33:10  <glx> I guess recalc happens too frequently for the data amount
14:33:12  <frosch123> yes, there is a setting to control how long the computation takes. the calculation runs in parallel, but it is merged at the deterministic timestamp into the gamestate
14:36:55  <glx> changing recalc_time and recalc_interval would probably help
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14:48:19  <glx> nice gameloop is >1s
14:50:36  <glx> (ok it's a debug build but that's so slow)
14:51:16  <LordAro> glx: the same savegame? it was running at ~10fps for me
14:51:33  <LordAro> (full debug build)
14:54:55  <glx> 2fps at most here
15:00:35  <glx> hanging at the same date
15:00:46  <glx> may 20th
15:01:09  <LordAro> well that's something
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15:03:53  <glx> recalc_interval 4days, recalc_time 16 days
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15:27:41  <Wolf01> Ok, enough lego for today, maybe tomorrow I'll build the defender
15:27:56  <FLHerne> LordAro: If you're ok with them, would you mind merging those PRs?
15:28:00  <FLHerne> I don't have write access
15:29:51  <glx> hmm it didn't like my force exit of the while loop in first pass
15:30:11  <LordAro> FLHerne: i know, i just generally don't merge PRs if i want someone else to look at them
15:30:18  <LordAro> not immediately, anyway
15:31:25  <FLHerne> LordAro: Ok, I wasn't sure to what extent "approved" meant "ok, do that" :P
15:32:07  <LordAro> for me, it means "as long as no one else finds/has any issue with it, it'll be merged soonish"
15:32:12  <glx> it just mean it's mergeable by someone with write access :)
15:32:56  <glx> and sometimes we are to fast on the trigger and regret it :)
15:33:00  <glx> *too
15:38:08  <glx> just added the regression check as required before merge
15:42:52  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] glx22 updated pull request #64: Fix: enable VT100 sequences on windows
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15:45:38  <glx> (and of course all PRs need a rebase now)
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15:54:20  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] glx22 commented on pull request #64: Fix: enable VT100 sequences on windows
15:57:46  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] glx22 commented on pull request #64: Fix: enable VT100 sequences on windows
16:01:24  <frosch123> andythenorth: so, station rating. would you use a vehicle callback that allows to make some vehicles more favourable in station rating?
16:01:49  <supermop_Home> pacer reduces station rating?
16:02:01  <frosch123> or that :p
16:03:07  <frosch123> basically #7730: people want to change the mechanics, but don't agree how. so the obvious solution would be to make the "speed of last vehicle" defined by the vehicle grf
16:03:37  <frosch123> which can then use other criterions than speed, like consist composition
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17:53:26  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] telk5093 updated pull request #7817: Feature: Topview screenshot (a.k.a minimap)
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18:00:36  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] glx22 opened pull request #65: Fix #57: Check coherency of GRF parameters limits
18:02:59  <andythenorth> frosch123: that would be an alternative way to implement things like 'luxury'
18:03:08  <andythenorth> could be useful
18:03:59  <frosch123> do you still use always-100% rating?
18:04:04  <andythenorth> no, I got bored of that
18:04:09  <andythenorth> it was fun for model train games
18:04:27  <andythenorth> it's not a wrong idea, I just did it enough
18:06:08  <andythenorth> it's probably better than messing around with a cargo payment bonus, which is my current solution to 'luxury'
18:10:04  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] glx22 commented on pull request #65: Fix #57: Check coherency of GRF parameters limits
18:11:05  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] glx22 commented on pull request #65: Fix #57: Check coherency of GRF parameters limits
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18:28:45  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] glx22 commented on pull request #65: Fix #57: Check coherency of GRF parameters limits
18:34:04  <snail_UES_> I was reading in the IH thread about a “group liveries feature” developed by peter1138
18:34:14  <snail_UES_> is there any docs about how it works? or can anyone explain it?
18:35:08  <nielsm> you make vehicle groups using the regular grouping UI
18:35:28  <nielsm> then there is a button that opens the company livery window, where you can set livery for each group defined
18:36:14  <Eddi|zuHause> snail_UES_: i think the idea was that when you have multiple vehicles, you define one of them as a "master" vehicle, and the UI will then collapse those into one single entry on the purchase menu
18:36:45  <nielsm> oh that?
18:36:53  <nielsm> nm then
18:37:06  <Eddi|zuHause> well, i might also be wrong :)
18:37:11  <snail_UES_> Eddi|zuHause: this sounds great...
18:37:33  <snail_UES_> I was waiting for something like that. But isn’t there any thread or documentation about it?
18:37:51  <Eddi|zuHause> snail_UES_: afaik: none of that is implemented (yet)
18:37:52  <snail_UES_> I’m still using refitting to cycle through liveries in my set, it’d be nice to use a less cumbersome method for my next one
18:38:00  <snail_UES_> ah… I see
18:38:30  <Eddi|zuHause> snail_UES_: what nielsm said, that is implemented.
18:38:56  <Eddi|zuHause> i.e. the player can now set company colours on vehicle group level
18:39:15  <snail_UES_> in the purchase window?
18:39:21  <Eddi|zuHause> no
18:39:37  <snail_UES_> oh, so after you build your trains? in the roster of existing trains?
18:39:44  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
18:39:53  <snail_UES_> ah, so it’s not really what I was looking for
18:40:28  <Eddi|zuHause> afair, there is a company colour variable you can check in the varaction2, for visual differences
18:40:47  <snail_UES_> right, but that’s not exactly what I was looking for
18:40:51  <Eddi|zuHause> but that is probably not what you're looking for
18:41:01  <snail_UES_> I’d like to code different “versions” of the same engine as separate IDs, but then group them somewhat in the purchase window, to avoid cluttering
18:41:13  <Eddi|zuHause> yes. i would like that as well
18:41:46  <Eddi|zuHause> in my case, i want MUs with different amount of wagons
18:42:17  <snail_UES_> that too...
18:43:19  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm not 100% convinced, that the current working-proposal is really the best way to do that
18:43:21  <snail_UES_> you can code them as articulated engines and then add coaches to them, but it’s not exactly the same
18:43:31  <snail_UES_> especially when each car is powered
18:43:47  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah. but articulated vehicles can't be dual-headed
18:44:11  <Eddi|zuHause> and powered wagons are weird...
18:44:22  <Eddi|zuHause> especially price-balance-wise
18:44:22  <snail_UES_> right, you’d have to add the new coaches in the tail of the consist, then swap the graphics and the visual effects
18:44:36  <snail_UES_> ^^ what you just said is the point
18:45:32  <snail_UES_> in the current system there’d be little price difference between a “shorter” and a “longer” consist, if the “longer” is merely a “shorter” + a bunch of coaches
18:45:42  <Eddi|zuHause> snail_UES_: there's so much hacky newgrf stuff that has accumulated over the years, that can sort of do what you want, but not really...
18:45:48  <snail_UES_> and that’d be silly coz there’d be no incentive to build a “shorter” consist at all
18:46:14  <snail_UES_> yeah, pretty much everything is an afterthought :D
18:49:33  <Eddi|zuHause> i've been thinking of ways to get rid of this hacky/weird "livery refit using cargo subtypes" feature for years now
18:53:48  <snail_UES_> me too… but I couldn’t really find a workable solution, without cluttering the purchase list
18:54:22  <snail_UES_> and I don’t really want the same engine repeated, say, 8 times, with just different graphics and slightly different stats
18:54:39  <snail_UES_> OTOH, the current way of doing things doesn’t really work with auto replace
18:55:16  <snail_UES_> hence, I don’t use autoreplace in my games :p but this puts some people off
18:55:47  <Eddi|zuHause> with autoreplace, you have to be very strict about which subtypes you offer
18:56:06  <Eddi|zuHause> because the algorithm that tries to match them isn't very advanced
18:56:24  <snail_UES_> well, coding each subtype in a separate ID would work, right?
18:56:31  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
18:56:43  <Eddi|zuHause> and that's where the purchase list collapsing would come in
18:56:47  <frosch123> the autoreplace algorithm is pretty advanced :p
18:56:48  <snail_UES_> exactly!!
18:56:55  <frosch123> you just need to use the same strings for the same types
18:57:07  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: yes. :p
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19:32:15  <andythenorth> oh snail left :P
19:32:19  <andythenorth> the group livery is done
19:32:30  <andythenorth> something about variants concept doesn't convince me
19:32:40  <andythenorth> it was my idea iirc, so I'm not being mean to anyone :P
19:46:49  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] telk5093 updated pull request #7817: Feature: Minimap screenshot
19:47:51  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] telk5093 commented on pull request #7817: Feature: Minimap screenshot
19:50:49  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] telk5093 commented on pull request #7817: Feature: Minimap screenshot
19:58:17  <andythenorth> frosch123: got a patch then? o_O
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19:59:45  <frosch123> for station rating?
19:59:52  <frosch123> no, do you want one?
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20:05:26  <andythenorth> could be useful?
20:05:56  <andythenorth> I had an idea about cabooses
20:05:57  <andythenorth> :P
20:06:18  <frosch123> i wondered about cargo wagons
20:06:20  <andythenorth> ha ha, I also just had an idea about snowploughs :P
20:06:40  <frosch123> maybe specialised wagons are cooler than generic refittable wagons
20:06:42  <andythenorth> vehicles can't check snowline, right?
20:07:15  <frosch123> i think they can, but you can't use it for vehicle properties
20:07:28  <andythenorth> specialised > generic? o_O
20:07:36  <andythenorth> which newsletter can I subscribe to?
20:07:47  <frosch123> car transporter > flat bed
20:07:59  <frosch123> hopper > open wagon
20:08:07  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: don't we have capacity and/or loading speed for those?
20:08:18  <frosch123> possible
20:08:46  <frosch123> i just wonder whether station rating is a significant vehicle property
20:08:52  <frosch123> that allows for more vehicle variety
20:08:54  <Eddi|zuHause> trading capacity for autorefit, for example, would be a useful distinction between special and generic wagons
20:08:56  <andythenorth> there are some wagons e.g. refrigerated
20:09:06  <andythenorth> where it's impossible to actually give a bonus that's useful
20:09:26  <andythenorth> molten metal has the same issue, just hot not cold
20:09:37  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: no, because station rating would be the variable to optimize for, essentially reducing you to a single valid choice
20:10:00  <andythenorth> would it work like ships?
20:10:19  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: i don't think so
20:10:20  <andythenorth> rating's potentially interesting because it allows longer between pickup
20:10:22  <Eddi|zuHause> that ship bonus is silly
20:10:27  <andythenorth> ni
20:10:28  <andythenorth> no
20:10:30  <andythenorth> it's valid
20:10:30  <frosch123> people do not go for larger/faster vehicles to please station rating
20:10:32  <andythenorth> ships are slow
20:10:45  <andythenorth> and the original game only offered one size
20:11:48  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: let me rephrase that: the rating decay for "not always a train waiting" is stupid, and the ship bonus is thus invalid
20:12:09  <Eddi|zuHause> ... as it is reinforcing a stupid concept
20:12:31  <andythenorth> I possibly agree, but it is what it is?
20:15:07  <frosch123> who is our vehicle property freak after V?
20:18:36  <andythenorth> not me
20:21:15  <supermop_work> no HST NG wagons andy?
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20:22:52  <andythenorth> not so much
20:24:53  <supermop_work> what would a plow do with snowline information anyway?
20:25:24  <frosch123> you can raise and lower it like a the catenary thingie
20:25:33  <frosch123> pantograph?
20:25:59  <frosch123> oh, or animation
20:26:27  <frosch123> that could potentially look awesome
20:26:32  <andythenorth> set higher station rating for plowing above snowline
20:26:44  <andythenorth> do I really want to animate a flanger? :P
20:26:54  <andythenorth> how about rotary?
20:27:08  <frosch123> as long as there is snow flying from it
20:28:30  <andythenorth> I was thinking of this initially
20:28:37  <andythenorth> but a rotary would make more sense :P
20:28:58  <andythenorth> anyway station bonus for snowploughing :P
20:29:27  <frosch123> it would work if the station is above snow line
20:29:48  <andythenorth> in temperate, station bonus for running track maintenance machines
20:29:54  <andythenorth> and restaurant cars
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20:36:25  <snail_UES_> andythenorth: I’m completing the IH Italian translation
20:36:38  <snail_UES_> what the heck do you mean by “Lolz”? :p
20:37:17  <andythenorth> it's a temporary thing
20:37:22  <snail_UES_> ah
20:37:27  <snail_UES_> I’ll leave it empty then
20:37:40  <andythenorth> translate it to 'shunter' or 'small shunter'
20:37:45  <andythenorth> I'll change it now in En
20:37:54  <snail_UES_> alright
20:38:13  <andythenorth> it's not useful, it's just an eye candy / joke train
20:38:39  <snail_UES_> well, it’d be useful if we ever implemented that reversing patch someone did time ago
20:39:07  <andythenorth> it's 35mph :P
20:39:20  <andythenorth> oh I need to change the string name, that will break any translation you do sorry :P
20:39:46  <snail_UES_> :p
20:40:02  <snail_UES_> anyway I’m reading your previous messages now, snowplowing would be a nice addition
20:40:14  <snail_UES_> it’s technically possible even now, but it’d be just eye candy...
20:40:38  <snail_UES_> improving station ratings for running snow plows (or maintenance vehicles) would be awesome though
20:40:43  <andythenorth> I've drawn a snowplough
20:41:10  <andythenorth>
20:41:17  <snail_UES_> but then we’d have to draw specific tracks, right?
20:41:26  <snail_UES_> right now I’m drawing snow-covered tracks for my set
20:41:59  <snail_UES_> we’d have to draw snow-covered tracks, and partially-snow-covered tracks to display immediately after a snowplow’s passage...
20:42:05  <supermop_work> my personal rating of a station goes down when im waiting for the subway late at night and instead a work train rolls through
20:43:12  <andythenorth> what if it's the vacuum train that hoovers up the dead rats and garbage?
20:44:02  <supermop_work> that one is very rare
20:44:11  <snail_UES_> no such thing in the NYC subway :D
20:44:26  <snail_UES_> we have the live rats that hoover up garbage instead
20:44:57  <supermop_work> also its so loud they usually won't run it when there are people waiting in the station
20:45:24  <snail_UES_> anyway, you put the snowplough as the head of a consist? I’ve rather seen dedicated consists, such as a single engine pushing a plow forward
20:45:45  <andythenorth> I've made it an engine so it can lead
20:46:26  <andythenorth> RL tends to
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20:51:48  <snail_UES_> hi arikover, long time no see :)
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21:58:58  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] stormcone opened pull request #7843: Industry directory cargo filtering
22:00:58  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] stormcone updated pull request #7800: Easier access for vehicles' group window.
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22:52:57  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 commented on pull request #7843: Industry directory cargo filtering
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