Log for #openttd on 29th November 2019:
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07:32:06  <andythenorth> yo
07:32:17  <andythenorth> today arrived quite quickly after yesterday
07:32:24  <andythenorth> I would have liked more gap
07:37:14  <peter1138> That happens, especially after beer.
07:38:14  <peter1138> Extra bicycle layers today, it's 0.7 degC apparenntly.
07:38:49  <andythenorth> I have noted the outside
07:38:54  <andythenorth> I don't fancy it
07:38:59  <andythenorth> but school run must happen
07:40:59  <peter1138> I did not have any eggs this morning, so I had a portion of cereal. Same carolies, but carbs instead of protein. What a waste.
07:51:37  <peter1138> Also I just put some beer in the fridge for tonight.
07:51:47  <peter1138> Bye.
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09:19:48  <andythenorth> hmm makefiles
09:24:40  <LordAro> andythenorth: mmmmakefiles
09:24:46  <peter1138> Damn, why does the console require double quotes everywhere? :p
09:25:33  <andythenorth> LordAro: me writing makefiles is an object lesson in cargo culting
09:25:36  <andythenorth> or coding by hope
09:26:25  <andythenorth> I should twitch stream it for lolz
09:26:38  <andythenorth> I find a line that apparently works, then copy + modify it :P
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11:33:35  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] matthijskooijman commented on pull request #59: Simplify pillow imports and version detection
11:34:53  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] matthijskooijman updated pull request #59: Simplify pillow imports and version detection
11:38:21  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] matthijskooijman commented on pull request #59: Simplify pillow imports and version detection
11:39:05  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] LordAro commented on pull request #59: Simplify pillow imports and version detection
11:39:18  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] LordAro approved pull request #59: Simplify pillow imports and version detection
11:39:46  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] LordAro merged pull request #59: Simplify pillow imports and version detection
11:40:57  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] LordAro merged pull request #65: Fix #57: Check coherency of GRF parameters limits
11:40:57  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] LordAro closed issue #57: GRF integer parameters can be given negative values.
11:47:09  <andythenorth> busy :)
11:49:57  <LordAro> nah, just noisy
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12:03:14  <peter1138> Hi.
12:04:10  <andythenorth> so...
12:04:18  <andythenorth> it's that time again
12:11:59  <peter1138> Bit early for me.
12:12:41  <LordAro> defo lunch
12:12:57  <andythenorth> I had cheese on toast
12:13:00  <andythenorth> for a starter
12:21:43  <peter1138> I've got, uhm, a salad.
12:21:49  <peter1138> I made it last night.
12:22:10  <peter1138> Guy next to me has a slice a bread and a pot-pasta thing. Eating at his desk, ew...
12:29:56  <Eddi|zuHause> i have no clue what a pot-pasta would look like
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12:33:41  <andythenorth>
12:33:54  <andythenorth>
12:34:17  <peter1138> Well, that's a pot noodle...
12:34:51  <peter1138> But basically the same thing.
12:35:00  <Eddi|zuHause> exactly, i could imagine pot noodle, but not pot pasta
12:35:38  <Eddi|zuHause> pasta is a much wider field than just noodles
12:35:59  <andythenorth> :o
12:36:01  <andythenorth> it is?
12:36:26  <Eddi|zuHause> pasta covers things like tortellini and lasagna
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12:43:42  <andythenorth> supermop_Home: should I observation car? :P
12:43:49  <andythenorth> more pointless trains? o_O
12:48:20  <peter1138>
12:48:22  <peter1138> I mean...
12:48:36  <peter1138> andythenorth's favourite, Pot Pasta Macaroni Cheese...
12:48:45  <andythenorth> on toast
12:50:16  <FLHerne> andythenorth: Yes
12:50:36  <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: so they use "noodles" for asian-style and "pasta" for italian-style noodles?
12:52:23  <peter1138> That's standard UK usage, yes.
12:53:21  <peter1138> We tend to refer to lasagne as "lasagne" rather than pasta, but obviously it is pasta.
12:53:39  <andythenorth> FLHerne: yes to pot noodle on toast?
12:53:44  <andythenorth> or yes, more pointless trains?
12:53:54  <FLHerne> Pointless trains, of course
12:54:12  <FLHerne> Pot noodles aren't worth consuming under any circumstances
12:55:07  <Eddi|zuHause> probably loads of things in stores today shouldn't actually be consumed
12:55:57  <peter1138> Noodles with bread... because carbs + carbs is a good idea.
12:56:28  * andythenorth tries drawing steam engines without connecting rods
13:03:32  <andythenorth> FLHerne: I haven't got the wheel shapes right yet, but this is not worse eh? (LHS image)
13:06:07  <Eddi|zuHause> surely you need animated rods
13:06:38  <andythenorth> I don't think it's practical
13:06:57  <andythenorth> the compile time and file size are already beyond any sensible limit
13:07:46  <andythenorth> I wondered about cycling a palette to do it :P
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13:09:13  <andythenorth> oh, UKRS 2 is not animated? :o
13:10:37  <Eddi|zuHause> 2 or 2.5?
13:11:03  <andythenorth> 2
13:11:07  <andythenorth> NARS 2.5 is animated
13:11:18  <andythenorth> there are 4 pixels in each wheel which flip
13:12:02  <Eddi|zuHause> dunno, i used ukrs like once, on a server
13:12:53  <andythenorth> I could probably do an overlay layer
13:12:58  <andythenorth> I have a spare sprite layer
13:13:55  <andythenorth> the NARS wheels just give the impression of movement
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13:15:59  <andythenorth> oof do I really want this headache? :)
13:16:52  <Eddi|zuHause> i think CETS had animation, at least i seem to remember Oberhümer drawing rods in various configurations
13:17:58  <andythenorth> I'd have to do it for large-wheeled electric engines as well
13:18:12  <andythenorth> but the layers might all be used there, for pantographs
13:18:37  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, electric engines with 2 sets of rodded wheels, where each set has a different offset
13:18:38  <andythenorth> nope, 1 free layer
13:18:50  <andythenorth> garrats and mallets also :P
13:19:28  <andythenorth> well it doesn't have to be a layer, I could generate the wheel sprites directly onto the engine sprite
13:19:51  <andythenorth> I already generate cargo, pantographs and opening doors :P
13:20:06  <andythenorth> but it will double the count of realsprites for steam engines
13:20:22  <andythenorth> or quadruple if I do a full 4 angles
13:20:26  <andythenorth> rotations / angles /s
13:20:35  <Eddi|zuHause> wouldn't simple copy-paste be easier?
13:21:13  <andythenorth> not when the shape changes
13:21:32  <andythenorth> replacing a pattern of 4 pixels in a wheel is trivial
13:21:51  <andythenorth> less work to automate than do manually
13:22:16  <andythenorth> I just think it will kill compile time further
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13:29:53  <andythenorth> oh dear, this idea has grown to 'inevitable' :P
13:29:58  * andythenorth regrets in advance
13:37:38  * andythenorth still regrets
13:40:08  <andythenorth> "For that, make the animation use a number of frames, which is a power of two, i.e. 2, 4, 8, 16, 32, ... frames, and then use the lower n bits of motion_counter."
13:40:08  <andythenorth> can't I just mod(2) or mod(4)
13:42:45  <andythenorth> maybe not
13:42:51  <FLHerne> andythenorth: You really don't need animation
13:43:15  <FLHerne> UKRS2 doesn't have it, and it looks fine so long as you can only barely see the rods in the first place
13:43:39  <FLHerne> Yes, that pic looks better
13:44:14  <andythenorth> the engine looks less sleek, but more powerful
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13:46:32  <andythenorth> I have a test of animation
13:46:35  <andythenorth> not sure it adds much
13:47:16  <andythenorth> to actually see it will require high contrast rods
13:47:24  <andythenorth> which we've established don't look great
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13:53:30  <andythenorth>
13:53:35  <andythenorth> snail_UES_ :)
13:53:46  <andythenorth> steam engine wheel animation....or not?
13:53:57  <andythenorth> FLHerne: ^^^
13:54:34  <FLHerne> Nah
13:55:09  <snail_UES_> why not?
13:55:23  <snail_UES_> if you don’t do animation, then at least remove the rods
13:55:40  <snail_UES_> it’s so silly to see a steamer run with motionless rods...
13:55:49  <andythenorth> yes, proposed change is no rods, or animated not-quite rods
13:56:21  <andythenorth> this is not a good look
13:56:34  <FLHerne> snail_UES_: "so silly to see a steamer run with motionless rods" was what I complained about in the first place
13:57:07  <andythenorth> I suspect I end up animating :P
13:57:17  <andythenorth> it's only a couple of pixels, 2 frames seems to be enough
13:57:18  <snail_UES_> tbh I think animation doesn’t look bad in my NG steamers
13:57:20  <FLHerne> But IMO non-animated, low-contrast rods look better than animatedd high-contrast ones
13:57:33  <snail_UES_> 2 frames??? dude, put 4
13:57:40  <FLHerne> OTTD's animation is just too coarse, they flail around all over the place
13:57:50  <andythenorth> it looks very wrong in the vehicle info window
13:57:52  <snail_UES_> it depends on how you draw them
13:57:57  <andythenorth> it doesn't seem to redraw reliably
13:58:01  <FLHerne> More frames would help, but then it would be huge
13:58:12  <snail_UES_> huh? you can always have fixed sprites in the vehicle info window
13:58:15  <FLHerne> andythenorth: There's definitely a middle ground that works
13:58:25  <snail_UES_> I only put animated sprites in the game window, nowhere else
13:58:28  <andythenorth> ok
13:58:34  <FLHerne> One day I must stop singing the praises of UKRS2, but that is not this day :P
13:58:57  <andythenorth> it's fine, UKRS2 is a high water mark
13:58:59  <snail_UES_> I was thinking about using 6 frames for large steamers, but that’d be too complex coding-wise
13:59:38  <snail_UES_> but anyway yes, if I had to choose between 2 frames and no animation, I’d choose no animation
13:59:56  <andythenorth> 2 frames doesn't look great at 30mph
14:00:03  <andythenorth> it's ok for 100mph
14:00:20  <snail_UES_> at 100mph it won’t matter anyway...
14:00:23  <andythenorth> I could do 4 or 8
14:00:25  <andythenorth> but eh
14:00:30  <snail_UES_> 4 :)
14:00:51  <snail_UES_> and only in the game window ( “viewport” )
14:01:05  <andythenorth> so FLHerne I'll change to roughly this?
14:01:12  <andythenorth> it doesn't preclude animating later
14:01:21  <andythenorth> but deferring that is good :P
14:01:30  <FLHerne> +1
14:01:35  <snail_UES_> looks good in the depot window
14:01:58  <andythenorth> ok
14:04:17  <snail_UES_> also, with stacked sprites, you can only redraw the wheels and rods for each animation frame
14:04:23  <andythenorth> yes
14:04:24  <snail_UES_> you don’t have to copy over the entire engine
14:04:30  <andythenorth> I would just automate the pixels
14:04:41  <andythenorth> it's almost no work
14:04:43  <snail_UES_> hmm
14:05:01  <snail_UES_> I actually prefer to draw each frame myself
14:05:02  <andythenorth> false colour -> replace
14:05:20  <andythenorth> each to their own :)
14:05:23  <snail_UES_> I mean there’s more than just the rods connecting the wheels… one can have fun with the distribution mechanism as well
14:05:25  <snail_UES_> but anyway :p
14:09:35  <snail_UES_> you can also code your vehicle to display motionless rods only when stopped
14:10:08  <snail_UES_> that could be an alternative if you don’t want to animate… just remove the rods as soon as speed goes above 0
14:14:46  <andythenorth>
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14:15:55  <andythenorth> maybe I should do something about the cylinders ^ :P
14:16:04  <andythenorth> or is it all fine?
14:16:11  * andythenorth is not short of 'todo' list :P
14:17:30  <snail_UES_> not sure, they do stand out compared to the wheels
14:17:55  <snail_UES_> probably you might want to harmonize the shades of grey between the cylinders and the wheels
14:18:38  <snail_UES_> I mean they should be a bit brigthier than the wheels, since they protrude further outside of the chassis, but still...
14:18:44  <andythenorth> I think they stand out too much
14:18:51  <snail_UES_> yeah kind of
14:19:15  <snail_UES_> even if you decide not to automate, you don’t have to paint your wheels *that* dawk
14:19:17  <snail_UES_> *dark
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14:27:00  <snail_UES_> *animate, not automate :p
14:31:12  <peter1138> Shall I spend £230 on a pair of BT headphones?
14:32:37  <LordAro> peter1138: does seem a bit much
14:33:05  <SpComb> totally worth it
14:33:45  <SpComb> I went to a store with a bunch of headphones in a display case with a nice sofa to sit down and listen on to buy mine
14:34:00  <SpComb> could have got them for quite a bit cheaper on amazon, but that's not worth it
14:35:11  <peter1138> 1000XM3, yeah?
14:35:42  <peter1138> I tried them on in PCWorld, felt comfortable, but nothing was set up there to actually test them. And no other comparable models to, er, compare.
14:35:45  <SpComb> this was some time ago so I went with the older sennheiser momentum
14:35:54  <andythenorth> I had some £80 bluetooth headphones
14:35:56  <andythenorth> I was well happy
14:36:08  <peter1138> I suspect the £80 would be enough, tbh.
14:36:10  <andythenorth> but that was the most I wanted to pay :P
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14:39:01  <peter1138> Heh, current Sennheiser Momentum are... £350 o_O
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14:45:12  <andythenorth> just 15 more trains to change the rods on :P
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14:59:02  <andythenorth> 13
15:01:17  <zvxb> that's the worst part of the game
15:01:23  <zvxb> fixing vehicles :/
15:05:43  <peter1138> Service at depot?
15:15:21  <FLHerne> zvxb: You can always turn breakdowns off in the settings
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15:52:43  <milek7> btw. situation when INDUSTRYBEH_CANCLOSE_LASTINSTANCE is disabled seems already fishy
15:52:46  <andythenorth> 7 trains to fix :P
15:52:53  <milek7> because it cannot know if it the last one and closure requests will be ignored
15:53:17  <milek7> so when it repeatedly requests closure it cannot modify production at the same time
15:53:18  <andythenorth> for newgrf?
15:53:40  <milek7> yes
15:53:45  <milek7> but this is just nitpicking ;P
16:08:38  <Eddi|zuHause> <andythenorth> it looks very wrong in the vehicle info window <-- you can check extra_callback_info1 for that
16:08:55  <andythenorth> I could
16:09:03  <andythenorth> I'm curious why it lags so much in the paint
16:09:19  <andythenorth> but also I deleted the animation so eh :)
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16:24:42  <andythenorth> 3 trains to fix
16:24:44  <andythenorth> oh
16:24:48  <andythenorth> narrow gauge also :(
16:38:07  <andythenorth> FLHerne: do these NG steamers have the same visual issue?
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16:51:05  * andythenorth repaints them
16:56:47  <andythenorth> FLHerne: all done :P
16:57:40  <FLHerne> andythenorth: Nice
16:58:00  <andythenorth> some of the steam engines still have the copy-paste appearance problem :P
16:58:08  <andythenorth> especially with only 1CC
17:04:09  <FLHerne> I notice that nmlc will compile files without a grf {} block
17:04:43  <FLHerne> Is that useful for concatenating output files as part of overcomplicated build systems?
17:05:20  <FLHerne> Oh, maybe I did that wrong
17:06:32  <FLHerne> I didn't, it does
17:07:28  <andythenorth> it can't resolve strings correctly in concatenations
17:10:47  <FLHerne> Ok
17:11:22  <andythenorth> I suspect that 'make nml faster' might have more yield than partial compiling :)
17:11:29  <FLHerne> there any valid reason why it should do that?
17:11:36  <andythenorth> OTOH, C++ tends to be partially compiled?
17:11:51  <andythenorth> I'm not sure how strings work internally
17:12:14  <andythenorth> the attempts by me and Eddi to provide partial compiles were hacks
17:12:30  <andythenorth> in principle, resolving all the strings is just some kind of symbol table?
17:12:38  <FLHerne> Sorry, what said originally was confusing
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17:13:42  <FLHerne> nmlc will compile files without a grf {} block; is there any valid reason why someone might wish to do this, or should I make it complain about that?
17:14:05  <andythenorth> I'm not aware of any reason, but I would defer to frosch :P
17:14:49  <FLHerne> The resulting grf doesn't even appear in OTTD's grf list, so I think it would only be useful as part of some weird process
17:15:13  <FLHerne> I experimented with the parser a bit
17:15:37  <FLHerne> You can't get any more than a 2x speedup using PLY + CPython
17:16:01  <FLHerne> Without doing bits of the parsing in parallel somehow
17:16:14  <FLHerne> I think PyPy is definitely the way to go there
17:17:19  <FLHerne> tbh, I don't care that much about performance, that's a problem for you people with absurdly oversized grfs :P
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17:18:42  <andythenorth> how much faster was pypy?
17:18:44  <FLHerne> Mostly I want to try and sort the internal state out better, so I can programatically edit the AST at various stages without it all going wrong
17:19:06  <FLHerne> I think it was 2.5x faster overall, and 5x faster for parsing specifically
17:19:18  <andythenorth> that's worth me installing pypy
17:19:24  <andythenorth> let's see if I can get a build :P
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17:33:14  <andythenorth> FLHerne: presumably pillow built for you in pypy?
17:33:25  <FLHerne> andythenorth: Yes
17:33:29  <andythenorth> hmm
17:34:01  <FLHerne> [PyPy 7.2.0 with GCC 9.2.0] on linux
17:34:03  <FLHerne> Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
17:34:04  <FLHerne> i>>>> import PIL
17:34:06  <FLHerne> >>>> PIL.PILLOW_VERSION
17:34:07  <FLHerne> '6.2.1'
17:34:26  <andythenorth> looks like zlib is broken for me
17:34:29  <andythenorth> oof :D
17:34:50  <FLHerne> (I modified the `python-pillow` pkgbuild from Arch into `pypy3-pillow`, then built and installed that)
17:41:22  <andythenorth> fixed it, mac issues :P
17:43:53  <andythenorth> oof
17:43:54  <andythenorth> pkg_resources.DistributionNotFound: The 'Pillow>=5.2' distribution was not found and is required by nml
17:43:57  <andythenorth> more things
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17:44:18  <zvxb> what programming language do i need to learn to make openttd plugins?
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17:45:04  <FLHerne> zvxb:
17:45:47  <zvxb> thanks!
17:46:50  <andythenorth> wow
17:46:54  <andythenorth> I've got nmlc in one shell that works
17:46:59  <andythenorth> and another shell that doesn'
17:47:01  <andythenorth> doesn't
17:47:09  <andythenorth> path to both is the same
17:47:11  <andythenorth> I love computing
17:47:12  <Arveen> use the working shell then ? :D
17:47:49  <FLHerne> Ok, more experiments
17:48:01  * andythenorth uses 'source' again :P
17:48:05  <FLHerne> Rendering docs is, for some reason, 4x slower with pypy than cpython
17:48:18  <andythenorth> which project?
17:48:24  <FLHerne> FIRS 4
17:48:47  <FLHerne> nmlc step is still faster
17:48:58  <andythenorth> chameleon might be slower on pypy
17:49:07  <andythenorth> oh
17:49:12  <andythenorth> I've now run out of file handles :(
17:49:18  <andythenorth> [Errno 24] Too many open files
17:49:31  <FLHerne> I guess because doc-rendering doesn't involve using the same codepaths repeatedly, so the JIT doesn't get used much
17:49:56  <FLHerne> Why do you persist in using macOS anyway? :P
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17:50:04  <FLHerne> 10.4 was nice
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17:50:44  <FLHerne> But everything I hear says it's kept the walled-garden annoyances without the ease-of-use
17:51:57  <andythenorth> I considered switching, but I'm not prepared to change habits
17:52:11  <andythenorth> iOS is horrible
17:55:39  <andythenorth> ok so for Iron Horse pasrsing is 4x faster with pypy
17:55:50  <andythenorth> but total build time is 1m25s instead 1m6s
17:57:40  <andythenorth> nml time 20s with pypy3
17:57:49  <andythenorth> 43s with py3.5
17:59:37  <andythenorth> let's try py3.8
18:00:00  * andythenorth considers a makefile that makes use of multiple python versions :P
18:00:03  <andythenorth> other people would hate me
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18:04:11  <andythenorth> 37s nml time with py3.8
18:06:00  <andythenorth> seems I have written invalid syntax for python 3.8 :D
18:11:33  <andythenorth> also something has changed in multiprocessing pool :P
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18:32:34  * andythenorth learns a lesson about putting things inside main() :(
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19:13:24  <andythenorth> ouch
19:17:07  <andythenorth> for part of my compile....
19:17:23  <andythenorth> python3.5 16 pool workers: 12s
19:17:37  <andythenorth> python3.8 16 pool workers: 29s
19:17:48  <andythenorth> python3.8 1 pool works: 24s :P
19:17:49  <andythenorth> oops
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19:31:04  <Samu> got a crash with 1.10-beta1
19:31:42  <Samu>
19:32:13  <LordAro> Samu: doesn't look familiar, you know where the bug reports go :)
19:32:30  <Samu> kdtree still crashing?
19:32:33  <LordAro> see if you can reproduce by loading the previous autosave
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19:39:14  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick opened issue #7847: kdtree crash report
19:39:52  <andythenorth> 9 seconds to import a module?
19:39:54  <andythenorth> hmm
19:40:02  <Samu> i wasnt doing autosaves... :(
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19:40:41  <andythenorth> takes 1.6s in python3.5
19:40:49  <andythenorth> that's....exciting
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19:42:49  <Samu> 			assert(next != INVALID_NODE); // node must exist somewhere and must be found before a leaf is reached
19:44:27  <Samu> i restarted the game from the save, let's see if it crashes again
19:45:04  <LordAro> needs someone to decode the .dmp file for the crash reports to be even vaguely helpful
19:45:18  <LordAro> the assert on it's own is just "something bad happened" with no further information
19:50:37  <TrueBrain> so, is OpenTTD having a Black Friday deal?
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19:58:45  <glx> oups opened wrong crash.dmp
19:59:06  <LordAro> TrueBrain: buy one get one free?
19:59:31  <andythenorth> 3 newgrf for price of one
20:00:10  <andythenorth> oh nmlc triggers syntax warnings with python3.8 also
20:00:13  <andythenorth> not just me then :P
20:00:40  <glx> visible in regression check ?
20:02:01  <andythenorth> nope
20:02:33  <glx> maybe because the regression makefile hides them
20:02:33  <andythenorth> SyntaxWarning: "is not" with a literal. Did you mean "!="?
20:02:38  <andythenorth> and L332 as well
20:02:50  <LordAro> interesting
20:03:36  <dwfreed> nice
20:04:08  <glx> displaying warnings/errors during regression check seems to be a good idea
20:04:52  <LordAro> assuming that bit is actually run during the tests :p
20:05:09  <dwfreed> having a second pass of regression check that sets warnings to errors is also a good idea :)
20:05:14  <dwfreed> makes it easier to spot
20:05:28  <dwfreed> (let's be real, nobody looks at logs unless there's failures)
20:05:37  <LordAro> might as well make it fail on first pass then
20:06:14  <glx> or just fails at the end if stderr is not empty
20:06:41  <dwfreed> you can have the second pass be non-blocking, as sometimes warnings are not resolvable/not easily resolvable
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20:11:28  <glx> hmm I don't see anything hiding stuff in the makefile
20:11:54  <andythenorth> hmm something has changed in python multiprocessing in 3.7 or 3.8
20:12:00  <andythenorth> and I can't see changelogs for it :P
20:12:15  <andythenorth> pool and map() are now insanely slow
20:12:17  <glx> (except the silly multilines command lines)
20:13:06  <glx> I don't understand why it's not 2 commands
20:15:17  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on issue #7847: Crash - Assertion failed at line 213 of src\core\kdtree.hpp: next != INVALID_NODE
20:15:41  <glx> downloading symbols was the longest part
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20:17:49  <glx> actual removal of a ghost station I'd say
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20:24:19  <Samu> got a crash again
20:24:26  <Samu> crashed in 1961 this time
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20:48:31  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 commented on issue #7847: Crash - Assertion failed at line 213 of src\core\kdtree.hpp: next != INVALID_NODE
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20:55:00  <glx> indeed the trace has some similarities
20:58:05  <Samu> testing a 3rd time
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20:59:56  <dwfreed> andythenorth: the cpython repository has been converted to git and is available on github; you can view all the changelog you want
20:59:58  <Samu> waiting for 1961
21:00:02  <glx> if it's repetable easily you can add your savegame to the report
21:00:11  <Samu> that's what I'm trying to see
21:00:29  <Samu> the savegame is the crash.sav with a restart on the console
21:00:46  <andythenorth> I found a diff already :P
21:00:47  <Samu> and waiting 30~years...
21:00:54  <andythenorth> but it was large :P
21:01:06  <glx> hmm but crash.sav is not always a good starting point as data may be corrupted
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21:02:31  <nielsm> remember crash.sav is generated at the time of the crash, _after_the crash has occurred
21:02:48  <nielsm> it won't necessarily show the thing that caused the crash if the crash is caused by something being removed
21:03:09  <Samu> i used the crash.sav to restart
21:03:19  <Samu> hmm
21:03:38  <glx> the only sure thing known from crash.dmp is that a ghost station was cleaned
21:03:58  <Samu> which one? can you tell me which tile?
21:04:12  <glx> impossible to get that info from the dump
21:04:56  <glx> that's why a savegame from before the crash is useful
21:07:04  <nielsm> maybe the kdtree operations should be instrumented further in some way, e.g. a buffer to store some additional info about thing being acted on and why
21:07:14  <Samu> fastforwarding in debug mode
21:07:16  <nielsm> that the caller is responsible for filling
21:08:03  <Samu> could the problem be related to fast forward?
21:08:10  <nielsm> really shouldn't
21:08:17  <nielsm> as everything runs in lock step
21:08:29  <Samu> hmm ok gonna fire another 1.10 for testing
21:08:36  <Samu> without running ff
21:09:40  <LordAro> "could it be the thing?" "almost certainly not" "ok i'm going to try doing the thing"
21:09:59  <Samu> :)
21:11:16  <nielsm> fast forward mode can generally show two classes of issues: framerate (video renderer) things, and link graph recalculation delay handling things
21:12:42  <glx> but this crash is not affected by FF
21:12:55  <nielsm> precisely
21:13:07  <nielsm> do not waste your time trying without ff, it will show nothing useful
21:13:11  <glx> it's during the standard tile loop
21:13:21  <glx> well game state loop
21:15:10  <Samu> its 1958, didn't crash at 1957
21:15:23  <Samu> waiting for 1961
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21:22:36  <Samu> crashed 4th feb 1961 again
21:22:41  <Samu> so it's reproducible
21:23:12  <Samu> but waiting from 1935 to 1961 is boring in debug mode
21:24:21  <glx> enable autosaves
21:24:43  <Samu> oh, good idea, but that might affect AIs
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21:24:47  <Samu> still gonna try
21:25:21  <nielsm> but of course the thing that triggers the bug might happen earlier so the bad state won't necessarily be kept in a save
21:25:43  <glx> it's probably the result of an AI action
21:26:58  <Samu> weird, im getting another crash, now it's linkgraph
21:27:07  <Samu> probably result of a broken save
21:27:24  <Samu> load that save, wait 3 days, and it crashes
21:27:46  <glx> expected if it's a crash.sav
21:28:12  <Samu> ah, ok then
21:28:54  <glx> I think there's an option to store all commands in a file
21:29:16  <LordAro> part of desync debugging, right?
21:29:24  <glx> yes
21:29:39  <glx> that could be useful to know when the station is deleted
21:29:40  <Samu> shipai was removing docks, i think
21:29:54  <Samu> snakeai was stuck for years
21:30:06  <Samu> so, if it's something it's shipai
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22:21:43  <andythenorth> oh this is interesting
22:21:57  <andythenorth> I've got a module which is 0.3s to run directly
22:22:02  <andythenorth> but 1.3s to import
22:22:07  <andythenorth> that's some overhead eh?
22:22:35  <andythenorth> especially as I import it often
22:23:12  <andythenorth>
22:23:20  <andythenorth> it has some bad practices in it, no main() etc
22:24:21  <andythenorth> " Note that loading a module the first time may be expensive because of the one time initialization of the module, but loading a module multiple times is virtually free, costing only a couple of dictionary lookups"
22:24:28  <andythenorth> no longer seems to be true for python 3.8
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22:48:33  <Flo> hi?
22:49:13  <Flo> Is Andy here?
22:54:18  <Samu> didn't crash via autosave t.t
22:54:35  <Flo> oof?
22:54:44  <Flo> im trying to compile  fork of firs
22:55:03  <Flo> but I get some errors
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22:55:33  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] xsrvmy opened issue #7848: Cannot scroll when building on Android
22:55:34  <andythenorth> yo
22:55:45  <Flo> hi :)
22:56:38  <Flo> someone told me you knew a thing or two about doing that and told me to come here to ask you :)
22:59:03  <andythenorth> foo?
23:00:05  <Flo> foo?
23:03:37  <Flo> idk if that tells you anything but...
23:03:43  <Flo> i get something like this:
23:03:44  <Flo> process_begin: CreateProcess(NULL, bin/git-info --num-id --version, ...) failed.
23:05:07  <glx> missing git ?
23:06:01  <LordAro> that's an unusual error message
23:06:09  <milek7> it seems to try start python script with CreateProcess?
23:06:29  <Flo> i never did python or make i dont really know...
23:07:07  *** andythenorth has quit IRC
23:07:40  <LordAro> Flo: unlikely to be a question andy can answer anyway :p
23:07:51  <Flo> oh :c
23:07:53  <milek7> GIT_INFO = bin/git-info
23:08:01  <milek7> try GIT_INFO = python3 bin/git-info
23:08:08  <milek7> and ensure python3 is in $PATH
23:08:32  <glx> this suggestion makes sense
23:08:32  <LordAro> milek7: if python3 was in PATH, presumably there'd be no issues starting bin/git-info ?
23:08:42  <glx> not on windows
23:08:54  <glx> shebang is not a thing on windows
23:08:55  <LordAro> oh, yes
23:09:03  <LordAro> pure windows environment would have trouble with it
23:09:12  <LordAro> ...but you're running make?
23:09:12  <Flo> im on windows
23:09:16  <Flo> yes
23:09:52  <glx> CreateProcess runs as a windows process
23:09:56  <glx> I think
23:10:12  <LordAro> CreateProcess is the windows syscall for creating processes
23:10:27  <LordAro> Flo: how are you running make? what's your environment?
23:10:51  <glx> maybe just gnuwin32 make
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23:11:15  <glx> so make working in cmd/powershell
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23:11:44  <LordAro> mm, maybe
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23:11:55  <glx> I think in mingw it should work fine
23:12:01  <LordAro> yeah
23:12:45  <glx> anyway git-info just prints "1 1 1 1" it seems :)
23:12:58  <glx> (just looking at the code on github)
23:13:15  <Flo> I just changed something
23:13:19  <Flo> i now get make: bin/git-info: Command not found
23:17:34  <glx> try REPO_INFO = $(shell $(PYTHON) $(GIT_INFO) --num-id --version) at line 29
23:17:49  <glx> (based on original firs repo)
23:19:06  <Flo> how do I do that? sorry if I seem dumb
23:19:22  <glx> hmm probably better to do GIT_INFO = "$(PYTHON) bin/git-info" on line 10
23:19:43  <Flo> in makefile?
23:19:47  <glx> yes
23:20:11  <Flo> alright
23:20:47  <Flo> oh
23:20:50  <glx> same on the following lines too
23:20:54  <Flo> looks like that made a difference
23:20:59  <Flo> alright :)
23:21:54  <glx> quotes are important :)
23:22:03  <Flo> yeah ive put them
23:22:07  <Flo> i now get /bin/sh:  bin/git-info: No such file or directory
23:27:11  <glx> what is your command line ? cmd, powershell or mingw ?
23:28:18  <Flo> i get the same error with mingw and cmd
23:28:35  <glx> ok I clone firs repo to try locally
23:29:20  <glx> will be easier than random guessing :)
23:29:28  <Flo> prob :)
23:29:46  <Flo> is git a program or something?
23:30:21  <glx> git is a program, but in this case bin/git-info is just a python script
23:31:24  <glx> hmm it's a huge repo
23:31:38  <FLHerne> glx: Lots of pixels :P
23:31:51  <FLHerne> glx: --depth=1 is smaller if you don't care about history
23:31:57  <glx> 618KB/s will take time
23:34:59  <Flo> i might not have git-info?
23:35:08  <glx> it's included in the repo
23:35:19  <Flo> in what repo?
23:35:25  <glx> it's a firs file
23:35:29  <Flo> oh...
23:37:23  <Samu> gotta go, cyas
23:37:29  <Flo> seeya
23:40:44  <glx> ok need to install some libs it seems
23:41:15  <glx> but running make in mingw works
23:41:52  <glx> well it fails but not because of git-info
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23:42:33  <Flo> i just ditn Florence@Flo-s-Laptop /c/Users/Florence/Downloads/firs-masterf/firs-master/bin
23:42:33  <Flo> $ git-info
23:42:42  <Flo> however git-info is in that folder
23:42:49  <glx> ./git-info
23:43:11  <glx> current dir is never in the path
23:43:16  <LordAro> well, very rarely
23:43:35  <LordAro> unlike native windows (like cmd, powershell), where it is
23:43:44  <glx> not on powershell
23:43:50  <LordAro> fair
23:43:55  <glx> which is a good thing I think
23:44:19  <Flo> how do I solve this?
23:44:46  <glx> in bin just type "./git-info"
23:44:54  <glx> it should work
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23:46:23  <glx> hmm I should probably have skiped graphviz install
23:47:57  <Flo> Florence@Flo-s-Laptop /c/Users/Florence/Downloads/firs-masterf/firs-master/bin
23:47:57  <Flo> $ ./git-info
23:48:19  <Flo> ./usr/bin/env: python3: No such file or directory
23:48:29  <glx> ah
23:48:50  <glx> so no python, nor python3 from mingw command line I guess
23:49:09  <Flo> i removed the dot
23:49:13  <Flo> i get sh: /git-info: No such file or directory
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23:49:42  <glx> and if you type "python3 git-info" ?
23:50:20  <Flo> sh: python3: command not found
23:50:22  <Flo> however
23:50:30  <Flo> $ python git-info
23:50:30  <Flo> 1 1 1 1
23:50:39  <Flo> python instead python3 seems to work
23:50:53  <glx> python --version
23:51:13  <Flo> Python 3.8.0
23:51:22  <glx> yes it's the good one
23:52:16  <LordAro> curious how you don't have a python3 executable
23:52:28  <Flo> idk...
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23:52:48  <glx> yeah I have both python and python3 on mingw (and they are the same)
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23:58:08  <glx> but maybe it's because I have python2 installed too

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