Log for #openttd on 1st December 2019:
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03:18:43  <snail_UES_> anybody there?
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07:59:25  <andythenorth> o/
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08:33:11  <nielsm> morning
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08:42:20  <andythenorth> hi
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09:19:36  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] andythenorth opened pull request #68: Fix: close image files after use during palette check
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09:23:42  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] nielsmh commented on pull request #68: Fix: close image files after use during palette check
09:26:39  <nielsm> just to be annoying :)
09:29:18  <andythenorth> you can make that change if you want :)
09:29:52  <andythenorth> it's a trade of correctness vs. chances of introducing breaking change
09:30:02  <andythenorth> I did the quick thing, I am taking my kids to football soon :)
09:30:31  <andythenorth> there are a bunch of detailed notes specific to PIL / Pillow for context managers and .close()
09:31:19  <andythenorth>
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09:33:16  <andythenorth> I suspect we really should be closing the other cases as well
09:33:22  <andythenorth> unless that's already done :P
09:35:13  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] andythenorth commented on pull request #68: Fix: close image files after use during palette check
09:36:00  <LordAro> mm
09:36:35  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on pull request #7729: Add #7525: Allow autoreplace with same model vehicle
09:37:08  * andythenorth learnt a lot yesterday :P
09:37:20  <andythenorth> after a whole day of work, I saved 27s on a 66s compile :P
09:37:23  <andythenorth> but eh
09:37:37  <andythenorth> I'm sure that will pay off, right? :P
09:38:08  <SpComb> there's a handy reference table for that on xkcd
09:38:57  <andythenorth> it's in yesteday's logs
09:39:41  <SpComb> if you spent 12h on it, than it's worth it if you do it at least once a day
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09:40:51  <andythenorth> winner is me then
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09:55:00  <andythenorth> eh the football ground I'm going to is marked on this map
09:55:17  <andythenorth> :P
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10:41:08  <Samu> hi
10:41:38  <Samu> nielsm, it didn't crash in 1961, starting from 1935 :)
10:41:54  <Samu> i think you forgot something in waypoints
10:42:22  <Samu>
10:44:46  <Samu> are you there
10:45:36  <nielsm> was cleaning
10:45:48  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick commented on pull request #7849: Fix #7847: Use ViewportSign coordinates for sign Kdtree coordinates for stations
10:45:52  <Samu> oops
10:46:01  <Samu> posted too quickly
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11:28:26  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] matthijskooijman commented on issue #42: Document how to release nmlc, including building a windows binary
11:32:12  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] planetmaker commented on issue #42: Document how to release nmlc, including building a windows binary
11:34:05  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] matthijskooijman commented on issue #42: Document how to release nmlc, including building a windows binary
11:36:33  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on pull request #7849: Fix #7847: Use ViewportSign coordinates for sign Kdtree coordinates for stations
11:45:10  <Samu> i can't see the comment :(
11:45:12  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] ldpl commented on pull request #7791: GS method to control engine availability for a specific company
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11:53:09  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] ldpl updated pull request #7791: GS method to control engine availability for a specific company
11:54:33  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] ldpl updated pull request #7791: GS method to control engine availability for a specific company
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11:56:55  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] ldpl updated pull request #7791: GS method to control engine availability for a specific company
12:05:44  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh updated pull request #7849: Fix #7847: Use ViewportSign coordinates for sign Kdtree coordinates for stations
12:06:30  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on pull request #7849: Fix #7847: Use ViewportSign coordinates for sign Kdtree coordinates for stations
12:19:24  <Samu> ok gonna retest
12:20:03  <nielsm> basically will need to run through all the previous kdtree bugs and retest for them with these changes
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12:28:05  <Samu> i have no time atm, lunch is ready, be back later
12:29:35  <Heiki> I found a problem for someone:
12:29:50  <Heiki> (but now I’ll try to make some deep-fried spring rolls)
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13:42:48  <Samu> restarting
13:42:58  <Samu> waiting for 1961 again
13:43:02  <Samu> with the new changes
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13:45:03  <Samu> what about #7822
13:45:18  <Samu> will it be fixed in next beta
13:46:44  <Samu> it's probably not the best way to fix it, but it works
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13:48:57  <LordAro> Samu: i definitely want to see it fixed for 1.10.0
13:49:20  <LordAro> but yeah, might not be the correct solution
13:49:32  <LordAro> needs a peter1138, really
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13:50:58  <Samu> for example, the bug also occurs with NPF
13:51:34  <Samu> the fix only addresses YAPF, because it has this cache thing
13:56:12  <Samu> but the problem itself, is not cache related
13:57:12  <Samu> im using a fix in the cache to work around the problem
13:57:34  <Samu> I don't address the problem directly, that's why I think it's not the correct way to fix it
14:00:28  <Samu> the problem is: the road vehicle has turned around at the end of the road, and finds itself in a position where it needs to ask the pathfinder for directions
14:01:03  <Samu> but at the same time, the vehicle tries to advance, but is blocked by another, so it doesn't advance in the current tick.
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14:02:02  <Samu> next tick, it repeats: finds itself in a position where it needs to ask the pathfinder for directions. It's in the same tile, same position as it was last tick.
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14:03:26  <Samu> the cache has some tiles, but not the initial tile
14:04:08  <Samu> it expects the vehicle to be in the next segment when trying to follow the cached path
14:04:17  <Samu> and it's not
14:04:35  <Samu> it's still in the same tile
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14:08:13  <peter1138> I'd say your fix is wrong because you'd need to ensure that data is stored in the savegame.
14:08:46  <Samu> doesn't seem to require savegame changes
14:09:14  <Samu> or at least, savegame conversion
14:09:53  <peter1138> It might look like it's working but I think it's not desync safe.
14:10:28  <peter1138> Anyway, if the vehicle can't move, it shouldn't consume from the cache. Hmm.
14:11:49  <peter1138> I don't remember entirely... did I assume that a vehicle would always be able to moved after filling the cache?
14:11:59  <Samu> yes, it seems
14:12:01  <peter1138> Cos that case would hold for ships (where it was originally implemented)
14:12:55  <peter1138> Maybe just invalidate the cache if the vehicle is blocked for whatever reason. Hmm.
14:13:37  <Samu> the cache is invalidated, and filled repeatedly, it just doesn't contain the where the vehicle is at
14:13:44  <peter1138> Or include the current tile in the cache and pop it off.
14:14:01  <Samu> yeh, that's probably what needs to be done
14:14:03  <peter1138> Oh.
14:14:23  <peter1138> Right, so the issue isn't that the vehicle's cache is wrong, it's a performance hit?
14:14:47  <Samu> it can't follow the cache, because it's not containing the first tile
14:15:00  <Samu> it contains only the tile where the vehicle would be at next
14:15:23  <peter1138> So... it is wrong...
14:15:40  <Samu> what about NPF?
14:15:43  <peter1138> I wish I understood you.
14:15:51  <peter1138> NPF doesn't do any caching.
14:15:59  <peter1138> Or didn't.
14:16:01  <Samu> the problem also happens there
14:16:13  <Samu> which makes me think, it's not entirelly a cache issue
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14:16:49  <peter1138> Maybe if you defined the issue more clearly rather than half-way down the solution...
14:17:41  <peter1138> LordAro, I'd made up my mind I was going to cycle this weekend, after 7 or 8 weeks of not doing so.
14:18:06  <peter1138> LordAro, then I woke up at 2am on Saturday morning with a miserable cold and have felt like shit since :/
14:18:35  <LordAro> peter1138: :((
14:18:40  <Samu> try the 2 vehicle savegame
14:18:49  <LordAro> well i moved house today, so i couldn't get out either
14:18:57  <peter1138> Samu, no.
14:19:27  <Samu>
14:19:31  <Samu> :(
14:19:42  <peter1138> Samu, I'll talk about things here, but I'm not getting into my dev environment.
14:20:17  <Samu> 1 vehicle blocks the other behind
14:20:30  <peter1138> Why are you still talking.
14:20:34  <Samu> hmm k
14:20:44  <peter1138> I'm not looking at any saves :p
14:21:20  <Samu>
14:21:53  <Samu> says in the comment if (rd.x & RDE_TURNED) {
14:21:53  <Samu> 		/* Vehicle has finished turning around, it will now head back onto the same tile */
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14:22:19  <Samu> "same tile" is the tile that is not cached
14:22:41  <Samu> it is fine if the vehicle is not blocked, it asks the pathfinder once
14:23:04  <Samu> but when it's blocked, it repeatedly enters the "same tile"
14:23:14  <Samu> every tick
14:26:10  <peter1138> So you want it to keep the cache instead of invalidating it?
14:26:25  <peter1138> But you can't because the cache is "from" the next tile, not the current tile?
14:27:13  <Samu> yes
14:29:14  <Samu> cache cant be followed, it only contains the next tile
14:29:49  <Samu> for the vast majority of situations, that is fine
14:30:13  <Samu> for this particular situation... it's not
14:31:08  <Samu> if the first tile is kept in the cache chain
14:31:30  <Samu> that may break the normal situations where the vehicle is advancing fine
14:32:08  <Samu> it'd have to skip first tile
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14:41:54  <Samu> I'm not sure how to test desyncs in this particular situation
14:42:29  <Samu> but the fix still should retrieve the exact path, with the difference that it's not hogging cpu
14:42:38  <Samu> the same track result
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14:49:11  <peter1138> Yeah might be fine.
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14:49:34  <peter1138> As it's not a wrong-cached-path issue, it's a not-cached-path.
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15:02:00  <Samu> btw nielsm no crash so far with the latest changes, year 1971 and going
15:02:10  <Samu> erm 1976*
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15:23:44  <nielsm> okay time to try out some of the previous bug reports from kdtree, see if they remain fixed
15:24:14  <glx> yeah good idea to do a regression check :)
15:24:42  <glx> but your new implementation seems safer
15:24:57  <nielsm> we really should make a regression suite of old saves that need to be loadable
15:32:23  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on pull request #7849: Fix #7847: Use ViewportSign coordinates for sign Kdtree coordinates
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16:13:07  <andythenorth> yo
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16:20:43  <andythenorth> what shall we do then?
16:21:00  <andythenorth> extend certain industry vars that only handle 2 or 3 cargos? o_O
16:21:08  <andythenorth> do the NRT docs?
16:21:19  <andythenorth> move nml docs to the repo?
16:21:28  <andythenorth> draw more snowploughs?
16:24:03  <LordAro> yes
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16:25:42  <andythenorth> have we got any nml PRs to merge?
16:25:43  <andythenorth>
16:26:10  <glx> maybe
16:26:44  <andythenorth> did we win this one yet?
16:27:51  <glx> oh I should comment about the new way using pyinstaller
16:32:09  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] glx22 commented on issue #42: Document how to release nmlc, including building a windows binary
16:32:17  <glx> there
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16:36:55  <andythenorth> ok so now we need a or similar
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16:41:37  <andythenorth> or we just put the info in README
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16:54:49  <andythenorth> maybe it's time for a docs folder
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16:56:31  <andythenorth> eh we have one :)
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17:14:02  * andythenorth wonders if this is the official issue tracker still
17:14:09  <andythenorth> README says it is
17:18:47  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] andythenorth opened pull request #69: Doc: fix minor issues in README
17:20:15  <andythenorth> ^ that one's pretty vanilla tbh
17:20:21  * andythenorth probably can't approve own work :P
17:27:57  <andythenorth> do we know what this is for?
17:28:10  <andythenorth> there's also nml.spec in root, with a completely different format afaict
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18:07:35  <snail_UES_> in my trackset, it looks like fences are disappearing on snowy terrain
18:07:45  <snail_UES_> but I didn’t code it like that… is it a bug in OTTD by any chance?
18:07:52  <snail_UES_> I’m using version 1.9.1
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18:10:40  <LordAro> snail_UES_: fences have never shown on snowy terrain
18:10:58  <LordAro> though i think a setting for it was introduced recently?
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18:11:28  <snail_UES_> ok, let me check the ottd settings
18:12:13  <snail_UES_> hmm, there seems to be no setting with “fence” in its name
18:12:21  <snail_UES_> but again, maybe it was introduced after 1.9.1?
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18:20:16  <Eddi|zuHause> i have not followed that development, but iirc there were never fences on snow/desert
18:21:59  <planetmaker> there weren't iirc
18:22:17  <planetmaker> I wondered about that when I coded railtypes
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18:29:36  <andythenorth> those canadians
18:29:41  <andythenorth> they never fence their tracks :P
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18:45:30  <snail_UES_> doesn’t this sound a bit silly to you guys…? :p
18:45:40  <snail_UES_> I mean, I build a rail line with fences and all
18:45:49  <snail_UES_> then it snows, the terrain changes, and the fences disappear...
18:45:49  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] DorpsGek pushed 1 commits to master
18:45:49  <DorpsGek_III>   - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
18:46:02  <snail_UES_> only to reappear next spring...
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18:50:40  <peter1138> Pretty sure that's how it's behaved in *TTD since the start.
18:54:40  <snail_UES_> right, but…
18:55:08  <snail_UES_> I mean I guess it wouldn’t be a big change code-wise to reenable fences on snow
18:57:21  <andythenorth> there was probably an issue for it
18:57:24  <andythenorth> I probably closed it :P
18:59:26  <snail_UES_> any chance we can reopen it? :p
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19:07:01  <andythenorth> this is for vars, but not drawing the fences
19:07:43  <andythenorth> oh this
19:07:49  <andythenorth> allegedly fixed ^ snail_UES_
19:09:03  <snail_UES_> hmm
19:09:13  <snail_UES_> so you’re telling me there’s something wrong with my NFO?
19:10:49  <FLHerne> snail_UES_: They just get buried in the snowdrifts
19:11:03  <snail_UES_> :p
19:11:48  <michi_cc> andythenorth: The nml.spec file you've linked is for building SUSE/Yast linux packages.
19:11:57  <andythenorth> and the one in root?
19:12:19  <michi_cc> No idea, but something completely different.
19:12:55  <andythenorth> thanks
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19:21:19  <nielsm> someone submitted a PR for having fences on snow and desert a good while ago, but it was poor quality and the submitter didn't follow up on reviews
19:21:36  <LordAro> that's what i was thinking of
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19:26:06  <andythenorth> how do I find r27343
19:27:03  <andythenorth> nvm
19:28:33  <planetmaker> snail_UES_, but the point is "TTD behaved such - and we keep that at least as default". Other things have been shot down with that reasoning ;)
19:28:59  <andythenorth> it's a good starting point, but hardly consistent as a design approach :)
19:29:12  <andythenorth> we changed sooooo many other things
19:29:33  <snail_UES_> I agree with andythenorth… for certain things, the default TTD behavior wasn’t ideal, so it’s desirable to change it
19:30:41  <planetmaker> it's always in the view of the beholder of what is desirable and what not.
19:31:00  <planetmaker> I see fences on tracks only as railtype property. And additional one to add as an option for NewGRF authors
19:31:25  <planetmaker> s/on/next to/
19:31:35  <nielsm> yeah add a "fence type on snow" and "fence type on desert" property to railtypes
19:31:36  <planetmaker> on tracks... would be inconvenient :P
19:31:59  <planetmaker> nielsm, simply a "fence" sprite. Which is used. And can depend on a terrain check
19:32:05  <planetmaker> no need for separate properties.
19:32:19  <andythenorth> could anyone approve this? It really is just README improvements
19:32:33  <planetmaker> and maybe a flag of "use fence on desert|use fence on snow"
19:33:09  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] nielsmh approved pull request #69: Doc: fix minor issues in README
19:33:22  <planetmaker> you should add yourself, andythenorth ;)
19:33:27  <andythenorth> not allowed
19:33:30  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] planetmaker merged pull request #69: Doc: fix minor issues in README
19:33:33  <andythenorth> oh as author?
19:33:34  <andythenorth> hmm
19:33:36  <planetmaker> yes
19:35:19  <snail_UES_> planetmaker: yes, I agree with you
19:35:28  <snail_UES_> the newGRF author should decide whether to put fences or not
19:35:43  <snail_UES_> but currently that’s not how it works. OTTD just removes fences on snowy terrain
19:36:43  <planetmaker> actually, indeed it only needs two flags in newgrfs... there is a fence sprite. So... hm
19:38:00  <snail_UES_> not even that. One can code fences so that they appear different, accordingly to the terrain type
19:38:17  <planetmaker> you can code anything as function of terrain type
19:38:18  <snail_UES_> the current system would work very well, if only OTTD didn’t remove the fences altogether
19:38:27  <snail_UES_> planetmaker: yes
19:38:32  <planetmaker> without any change needed. So yes :)
19:38:34  <snail_UES_> I do this for tracks and depots
19:39:00  <snail_UES_> planetmaker: the problem is that OTTD removes the fences on snow by default.. and currently, this can’t be overridden
19:39:17  <planetmaker> it doesn't remove them. There never were any
19:39:30  <snail_UES_> but if I code them, they don’t appear
19:39:40  <snail_UES_> so it removes them
19:39:59  <andythenorth> nielsm: any interest in helping port nml docs to the repo? :P
19:40:07  <planetmaker> You cannot remove something which never existed :) semantics maybe ;)
19:40:32  <snail_UES_> the point is, I code my rails so that fences appear in a certain style, using my own sprites
19:40:50  <snail_UES_> in my code I don’t include the “terrain”, so they’re supposed to appear on any terrain type
19:40:58  <nielsm> andythenorth, insufficient capacity at the moment
19:41:09  <snail_UES_> but they don’t appear on the snow… without me specifically telling OTTD to remove them on the snow
19:41:09  <andythenorth> :)
19:41:13  <snail_UES_> hence, it’s OTTD that removes them
19:41:49  <nielsm> OTTD did not decide that fences must not be on snow/desert, chris sawyer decided that back at the dawn of time
19:42:19  <nielsm> yes OTTD contains code that removes fences if the landscape below the fence changes away from grass into snow/desert
19:42:21  <planetmaker> ^^ And thus there are sprites for cases which do not exist by specs
19:43:23  <planetmaker> (my whole point actually is: it's a feature request, not a bug report :) )
19:43:37  <planetmaker> and of course I'm enjoying to twist words :P
19:43:58  <snail_UES_> alright, let’s call this a feature request :p
19:52:54  <andythenorth> is there a way to remove newgrf projects from eints?
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20:00:03  <andythenorth> can't find any mention of it in eints docs
20:04:00  <milek7> fences around rail tracks are a thing IRL? i have never seen one..
20:05:38  <nielsm> depends on the environment?
20:05:48  <andythenorth> law in the uk
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20:06:58  <nielsm> I remember reading somewhere that if US railway owners put fences around their tracks they are also responsible for maintaining it and monitoring the track
20:08:00  <nielsm> if someone gets past the fence and onto the tracks and is hit by a train, it's the railway owner's fault, but if there was no fence installed then it's the fault of the person on the rails
20:08:40  <nielsm> so railway owners prefer to not install fences for liability reasons
20:09:29  <LordAro> 'murica
20:12:10  <Arveen> sounds fantastic
20:13:23  <nielsm> I wonder if the same applies to trespassers on other industrial property then...
20:13:58  <Arveen> find out ? (you might get shot though)
20:15:24  <Arveen> i got a big coal plant right here  . not too long ago someone jumped their fence and got shot in the leg trying to get in (not 'murica)
20:24:10  <nielsm>  <- anyone dare approve this? :]
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20:24:38  <andythenorth> we should have a bleeding edge branch :P
20:24:53  <andythenorth> and just approve things for it that look 'probably fine'
20:24:53  <nielsm> we could call it master
20:25:02  <nielsm> eh
20:25:14  <andythenorth> :P
20:25:25  <Arveen> isn't that what nightly is ?
20:25:28  <andythenorth> no
20:25:47  <andythenorth> our standards for review are relatively high
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20:25:57  <andythenorth> and still we don't like it when mistakes slip through
20:26:08  <andythenorth> but then that puts a lot of burden on reviewers
20:26:25  <andythenorth> instead of just shipping it to a 'danger' branch and hoping players find bugs :P
20:27:49  <Arveen> :D
20:33:17  <andythenorth> I really should delete all my projects from web translator
20:33:26  <andythenorth> it's not fair to have people waste time translating them
20:33:29  <andythenorth> not sure how
20:34:42  <andythenorth> I still see translation commits in the dead mercurial repos
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20:51:02  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 approved pull request #7849: Fix #7847: Use ViewportSign coordinates for sign Kdtree coordinates
20:51:44  <nielsm> glx: I guess it shouldn't be merged as-is
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21:47:21  <Samu> year 2045, no crash
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22:17:37  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh closed issue #7847: Crash - Assertion failed at line 213 of src\core\kdtree.hpp: next != INVALID_NODE
22:17:37  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh merged pull request #7849: Fix #7847: Use ViewportSign coordinates for sign Kdtree coordinates
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22:29:27  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] grossws opened pull request #7850: Change: [hotkeys] add missing keycodes for hotkeys.cfg
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22:57:15  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] grossws opened pull request #7851: Change: [add support for next/previous railtype global hotkeys
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23:18:46  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] grossws updated pull request #7851: Change: add support for next/previous railtype global hotkeys
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23:27:41  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 commented on pull request #7851: Change: add support for next/previous railtype global hotkeys
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23:40:26  <Flo> Hi
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23:45:26  <FLHerne> Flo: Evening
23:47:15  <Flo> :)
23:47:36  <Flo> do you know how to compile firs?
23:47:50  <FLHerne> Yes
23:47:54  <Flo> oh
23:48:00  <Flo> could you help me?
23:48:01  <glx> yeah don't use master, switch to a v4 branch
23:48:14  <Flo> v4 branch?
23:48:46  <FLHerne> Flo: Do `git checkout v4-release-track`
23:49:08  <FLHerne> master doesn't compile with latest nmlc, you get syntax errors
23:49:13  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 commented on pull request #7791: GS method to control engine availability for a specific company
23:49:14  <Flo> oh
23:49:17  <Flo> thx :D
23:49:26  <Flo> that was exacly what I needed
23:49:29  <glx> and old nmlc doesn't work with recent pillow :)
23:50:01  <FLHerne> Flo: Sorry, I remember seeing you describe that, but after you'd left :P
23:50:32  <FLHerne> (I hit the same thing earlier this week, trying to find ways to make nmlc faster and thinking FIRS would be a good test case)
23:50:55  <Flo> oh
23:51:18  <Flo> yeah i was kinda screwed yesterday cuz pilow/nml version thing
23:52:19  <glx> FLHerne: PLY doesn't seem to detect changes in (but the doc says it's supposed to)
23:52:33  <FLHerne> glx: Hrm :-/
23:52:58  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] grossws updated pull request #7851: Change: add support for next/previous railtype global hotkeys
23:53:31  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] grossws commented on pull request #7851: Change: add support for next/previous railtype global hotkeys
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23:58:01  * FLHerne tries to figure out if there's code for that and what it does

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