Log for #openttd on 4th December 2019:
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07:04:50  <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth commented on issue #7854: Crash when loading Multiplayer list
07:11:55  <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on issue #7854: Crash when loading Multiplayer list
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08:51:04  <planetmaker> oh, nice table by frosch
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09:47:12  <andythenorth> is it supermop_Home?
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14:44:32  <supermop_work> good morning
14:49:30  <andythenorth> supermop_work:
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14:51:58  <supermop_work> for cement
14:53:17  <supermop_work> ?
14:54:48  <andythenorth> and stuff
14:54:49  <andythenorth> yes
14:55:03  <andythenorth>
14:55:04  <andythenorth> etc
14:59:21  <Eddi|zuHause> the double-wagons look weird
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15:27:24  <andythenorth> yes
15:27:26  <andythenorth> IRL too
15:27:56  <andythenorth> there's a space invaders effect
15:28:52  <Sacro> ~ ~ ~
15:28:54  <Sacro> pew
15:41:43  <FLHerne> andythenorth: Nice
15:42:17  <andythenorth> I might do some alternative liveries
15:42:19  <andythenorth> not sure
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15:45:15  * andythenorth wonders if we could flip 1CC and 2CC per vehicle, with a hotkey
15:47:27  <spnda> Anyone else tested the OpenTTD 3D thing? Works surprisingly well actually
15:48:28  * andythenorth watched a video :P
15:53:01  <planetmaker> video looks quite ok-ish
15:53:41  <Eddi|zuHause> what openttd 3d thing?
15:53:42  <planetmaker> his idea of how to work with and discuss and share source code... can be improved :)
15:54:26  <planetmaker>
15:57:16  <nnyby> looks cool!
15:59:05  <andythenorth>
15:59:12  <andythenorth> it's the in thing
15:59:41  <nielsm> yes the source-dump-tarball is a bad sign, you ought to work in git right from the start
16:00:05  <nielsm> even if you just do git commit -a -m wip
16:00:23  <planetmaker> ^^
16:00:57  <planetmaker> it's not even a source tar ball. It's just the src dir. So that doesn't compile
16:01:03  <Eddi|zuHause> that video makes some of the dimension distortion quirks more apparent
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16:14:02  <andythenorth> oh daylength fixes road vehicle payments apparently
16:14:08  * andythenorth reading Reddit
16:14:16  <andythenorth> Reddit is now switched to JGR also, as well as forums
16:15:11  <nielsm> what about road vehicle payments needs fixing?
16:16:19  <FLHerne> I still think you're seeing things ;-)
16:16:47  <andythenorth> nielsm apparently RVs don't make money, and daylength fixes that
16:17:13  <andythenorth>
16:18:25  <andythenorth> is it time to just merge in JGR as vanilla?
16:19:53  <FLHerne> andythenorth: In multiplayer, there are 81 people playing vanilla and 4 playing JGRPP
16:20:05  <FLHerne> Of course, that's probably biased the other way
16:20:17  <andythenorth> interesting metric
16:20:29  <FLHerne> [on listed servers, obv]
16:20:42  <andythenorth> that's a long way from 'most'
16:21:07  <FLHerne> But I said before, self-selecting forum users aren't at all a representative demographic
16:21:11  <andythenorth> so most people who post in forums / reddit, have switched
16:21:13  <andythenorth> not most players
16:21:35  <FLHerne> I think that's also true of newgrfs?
16:22:11  <FLHerne> People bothering to watch forums are those who've been playing the game for years
16:22:36  <FLHerne> Especially TT-forums, because old-school forums that aren't controlled by a US megacorp are obsolete :P
16:23:15  <FLHerne> So are much more likely than casual players to have got bored and started using weird stuff
16:26:54  <FLHerne> Correction - there are 10 further players on old vanilla versions, and 8 on 1.10-beta
16:27:05  <FLHerne> So in total there are 99 vanilla players
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16:28:33  <Eddi|zuHause> i wonder if this "digital tax" thing does anything to decentralize this stuff again
16:28:53  <supermop_work> the old chillpp before cdist was merged seemed to be the last time that a patchpack / fork felt like the defacto 'main' version
16:29:06  <supermop_work> that was like 10 years ago?
16:29:14  <FLHerne> Yeah, I remember that
16:29:22  <Eddi|zuHause> supermop_work: people claim that JGR is the "default" nowadays
16:29:55  <supermop_work> people claim that, but it's proabably self selecting?
16:29:59  <milek7_> spnda: i wonder if that binary is really built from that source tarball
16:30:36  <spnda> I doubt it
16:30:43  <milek7_> sprintf_s(opts, "%s%s", _use_shadows_set ? "#define SHADOWS\r\n" : "", _multisample_set ? "#define MULTISAMPLE\r\n" : "");
16:30:51  <spnda> I had to build it from the source to get the lang files as he does not provide them in the binary
16:31:21  <supermop_work> i think cdist andd maybe MHL were 'must have features', espescially for MP, enough to motivate  large numbers of people to use a non-standard version
16:31:21  <spnda> Also using no or MSAA AA makes the game unplayable
16:31:50  <supermop_work> but i'm not sure jgr has such a killer feature
16:32:24  <milek7_> this sprintf_s call looks bugged
16:32:28  <spnda> One screenshot I did which shows some issues quite clearly:
16:32:34  <supermop_work> especially if people can't agree what daylength should do?
16:33:09  <andythenorth> it fixes RVs
16:33:10  <andythenorth> :P
16:33:24  <supermop_work> RVs make plenty of money in vanilla for me
16:33:44  <planetmaker> depends somewhat on their route. But it should :)
16:33:51  <Eddi|zuHause> spnda: that's looking like missing sprites, e.g. rivers
16:34:00  <milek7_> i had to remove glTexParameterf(GL_TEXTURE_2D_ARRAY, GL_TEXTURE_LOD_BIAS, 0.5); because ui looked like that:
16:34:10  <planetmaker> to me it looks like wrong offsets i nthe screen
16:34:11  <supermop_work> also RVs are boring, not sure i'd go to trouble of a patch pack to subtly change the behavior of them
16:34:56  <spnda> Eddi|zuHause: not sure. But it could probably be it.
16:35:06  <supermop_work> and if a rv set has costs that makes the RVs lose money with normal time, isn't that just a poorly balanced newgrf?
16:35:09  <milek7_> terrain is missing on new game, needs save/load
16:35:14  <spnda> milek7_ you need to up your AA. That fixes that UI issue
16:35:23  <spnda> I have it on maximum
16:35:38  <milek7_> ie. after saving and loading it looks fine
16:35:43  <milek7_> no, for me it is not AA problem
16:35:59  <milek7_> with lod bias it sampled sprites from wrong mipmap
16:36:09  <planetmaker> good question I tend to agree with @supermop_work
16:36:56  <Eddi|zuHause> daylength should have no effect on profitability
16:37:19  <supermop_work> default, ogfx+, RH, eGRVTs, My RVs, all seem to make heaps of cash under nearly any settings in vanilla
16:37:39  <planetmaker> depends: measured in realtime or game time?
16:38:20  <nielsm> because daylength as implemented affects how often various daily/monthly/yearly things happen
16:38:29  <nielsm> so vehicles pay less maintenance depending on settings
16:38:35  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: that depends on if you also want to scale production by daylength
16:38:37  <nielsm> which is wrong imo
16:39:33  <supermop_work> nielsm: but still i can't think of a case where RVs in vanilla would consistently lose money and daylength is the only solution
16:39:36  <planetmaker> exactly... there's no completely correct solution to daylength. It's a matter of how you want to scale things. Wether you care about game time. or realtime revenue
16:39:40  <nielsm> production rates, costs, etc, should all be on fixed to tick counts
16:39:56  <planetmaker> I tend to agree with nielsm
16:39:58  <supermop_work> unless you mess with the running costs etc to a crazy degree,
16:40:07  <Eddi|zuHause> that's been the issue all along: you need to carefully figure out which effects should be scaled by game time (years, months), or real time (ticks)
16:40:08  <planetmaker> otherwise it becomes like unplayable slow to make revenue
16:40:43  <nielsm> which is why I like the "daylength" approach transport fever 2 takes (based on my limited understanding from watching one youtuber playing it)
16:40:48  <planetmaker> the important issue most often is that people don't want to rush through the game years so they can enjoy $VEHICLE for longer as a useful one
16:40:55  <supermop_work> and then it is like 'I willfully made an unplayable RV set, not change the whole rest of the game to accomodate it"
16:40:55  <nielsm> yes
16:41:14  <planetmaker> yes
16:41:39  <andythenorth> apparently daylength reduces cargo aging
16:41:48  <nielsm> instead of calling it daylength, make a new NoCalendar patch which decouples the calendar from the economy
16:42:08  <nielsm> all economy events run on tick counts (real time) instead of calendar time
16:42:11  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: there's more issues, like sparse towns/industries and low production rates should allow for "light" traffic (single track lines, etc.), which is currently not possible to configure
16:42:19  <nielsm> only technology runs on calendar time
16:42:40  <supermop_work> planetmaker: i understand nostalgia as a motivation for a slower game, and i understand a desire for slower train scheduling, to fit in various types of traffic,
16:43:21  <supermop_work> but i cannot accept 'fixing payments / costs as they are in Vanilla" because it makes no sense unless  self-inflicted
16:43:52  <planetmaker> so... like set of separate parameters. Which have separate pre-sets for easier configuration, but also a custom version where you can set everything?
16:43:59  <planetmaker> normal: everything as now
16:44:36  <planetmaker> day speed: more ticks per day
16:44:51  <planetmaker> industry speed: industry callbacks per month
16:45:04  <planetmaker> vehicle speed: ticks between movement callbacks
16:45:16  <planetmaker> maybe like that?
16:45:45  <planetmaker> (or along those lines. Details need fleshing out. But anyone could find their own optimal solution - and presets could easily be changed)
16:45:52  <milek7_> for building 3d build on linux:
16:48:30  <spnda> milek7_: does your version have any missing sprites or any other issues?
16:49:40  <milek7_> after save/load cycle it looks like on his video
16:53:01  <spnda> Oh yeah. That seems to fix those black tiles. Though for me water is still black.... hmm
16:53:48  <spnda> And I think he limited this whole thing to 30fps...
16:55:34  <nielsm> maybe it's vsync limited?
16:55:47  <spnda> wouldn't vsync sync to the monitors refresh rate
16:55:50  <LordAro> good ol' crazy russian programmers
16:57:13  <supermop_work> planetmaker: that certainly seems like the best approach technically to be all things to all people
16:57:39  <supermop_work> but would it be inscrutable to most users, even experienced users?
16:58:18  <supermop_work> with so many variables, it might take real years of trial and error to figure out what values produce the effect you want
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16:58:46  <milek7_> it is limited to 30fps the same as vanillia openttd, on ffwd it runs faster
16:59:11  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: i vaguely remember there being discussions along those lines, not sure if there was an actual patch
16:59:57  <supermop_work> or when connecting to a server advertising 'cdist' you know passenger distribution is probably on, maybe cargos as well, and the nuanced weights you can kind of ignore when deciding to join the game
16:59:57  <andythenorth> add it to the newgrf spec
17:00:45  <supermop_work> but a server that says 'daylength on' - how do i know how that will be manifested?
17:00:57  <andythenorth> well it's just JGR no?
17:01:03  * andythenorth may have missed something
17:01:19  <supermop_work> maybe this game you'll be swimming in money, maybe have almost none
17:01:26  <andythenorth> daylength is done, just needs all industry newgrfs rewritten
17:01:52  <supermop_work> andythenorth: planetmaker's approach can leave industries as is
17:02:52  <supermop_work> industries would behave how the user wants them to behave. if the user sets the industry callback setting to an unplayable setting that's really on them
17:12:02  <FLHerne> andythenorth: The reason it's never been merged is because the existing implementation is a hack that changes things arbitrarily and breaks stuff
17:12:31  <andythenorth> players say it's fine?
17:12:54  <andythenorth> has anyone here actually tried it?
17:13:02  <FLHerne> Yes, I used to play with it a lot
17:13:09  <FLHerne> (that was back in the ChillPP days)
17:13:14  <andythenorth> ok so you have information
17:13:22  <andythenorth> I have tried JGR, but not with daylength
17:13:53  <andythenorth> it's reported as working in so many places
17:13:58  <FLHerne> The implemented version just slows down everything that happens "per month"
17:14:16  <FLHerne> Which mean it scales intro dates, production, running costs, blah all together
17:14:57  <FLHerne> Coincidentally, most people who want slow intro dates (for 'realism') also like lower production (so 'realistic' networks can actually cope)
17:15:10  <FLHerne> So this makes people happy
17:16:00  <FLHerne> But those scaling factors /ought/ to be totally orthogonal, and if they were it wouldn't break stuff
17:16:48  <FLHerne> I believe JGR already *has* a production-scaling multiplier setting in addition to the daylength
17:18:01  <FLHerne> But the daylength still effectively scales production, so to keep the same level you have to change both settings in opposite directions
17:18:04  <FLHerne> Which is silly
17:20:21  <supermop_work> FLHerne: that seems like a case of make and merge a daylength patch, not a years-running patchpack that is aggregating numerous features for various ends....
17:21:01  <supermop_work> in response to andy's 'why not merge jgr, people like it'
17:21:25  <supermop_work> but
17:22:12  <FLHerne> supermop_work: Well, the reason not to merge jgrpp is made up of the reasons the things in it haven't been merged individually :P
17:22:42  <supermop_work> if JGR was compelled to add a production scale settign separate from daylength, does that imply that once daylength is in, people will be asking why they can't have a setting to independently set production to weird values in trunk
17:23:37  <supermop_work> basically returns to different people want daylength to mean different things
17:24:24  <supermop_work> which leads me to believe the JGR approach is intractable
17:25:00  <FLHerne> supermop_work: Right
17:25:33  <FLHerne> The sane way to do it is how planetmaker said, with independent settings for the different things people want it to mean
17:25:58  <supermop_work> yeah
17:26:00  <FLHerne> The only problem is that that patch doesn't exist yet ;-)
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17:26:36  <supermop_work> maybe PM will make it :)
17:26:42  <supermop_work> speak of the devil
17:26:57  <jgr_> Just to clarify, the production scaling is only for pax/mail
17:27:13  <jgr_> And was mostly to deal with the quadratic scaling with town size issue
17:27:43  <supermop_work> jgr_: isn't that a problem of houses / town though?
17:28:12  <supermop_work> ie not daylength's problem to solve?
17:28:46  <jgr_> The production scaling is separate from daylength, as mentioned before I joined
17:29:25  <supermop_work> so a daylength patch would not need to include it
17:29:41  <supermop_work> lunchtime
17:29:44  <jgr_> No, it is less necessary now that there is a linear town cargo generation mode
17:30:52  * nielsm # git checkout -b NoCalendar
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17:32:02  <jgr_> The particular implementation of daylength that I picked is fairly arbitarary and isn't intended as a standard of what "daylength" is or should be
17:32:20  <jgr_> arbitrary*
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17:33:11  <FLHerne> jgr_: Just to be sure, your daylength does still scale production:tick the way the old version used to?
17:33:27  <FLHerne> [*an old version, possibly]
17:34:18  <jgr_> In the version I'm using, vehicles run at the same speed, everything else is slowed by an integer factor
17:34:48  <jgr_> So the production per calendar year is unchanged
17:35:09  <jgr_> However the vehicle trips and vehicle running costs per calendar year are increased
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17:36:54  <jgr_> The upshot of doing it this way is that the implementation is very simple and the NewGRF layer is not affected
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17:44:04  <Eddi|zuHause> there's a few issues with that, like yearly running costs being larger than purchase price
17:44:25  <nielsm> hm interesting, if I speed up MILLISECONDS_PER_TICK to 27, win32_v only runs at 33 fps instead of the 37 fps it should
17:44:34  <nielsm> something more wrong with win32_v ?
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18:27:36  <andythenorth> did we solve it then?
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19:13:07  <supermop_work> ok
19:13:10  <supermop_work> long lunch
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19:27:12  <andythenorth> Blitz
19:27:21  <andythenorth> anyone with 'pro' in their nick will be 45%
19:27:28  <andythenorth> people with 'noob' are 60%+
19:27:42  <andythenorth> anyone called 'killer', 'sniper' or 'assassin' will be 45%
19:28:58  <frosch123> is there a patch to replace the keyword with the monthly payment rate?
19:29:17  <andythenorth> there ought to be
19:29:32  <andythenorth> there's some trend of xXx nicknames, probably some alt-right fad I guess? :P
19:29:35  <andythenorth> or the Russian
19:29:51  <andythenorth> there's always a new trend to blame on the bogeymen
19:38:17  <Wolf01> <andythenorth> or the Russian <- nah, they use ||| :P
19:39:54  <nielsm>  <-- there's my incomplete and completely untested NotDaylength patch
19:39:59  <andythenorth> :)
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19:40:17  <nielsm> which doesn't actually do daylengths yet
19:40:33  <andythenorth> does it pass the automated regression suite? :P
19:40:39  <andythenorth> oh we don't have one ;)
19:41:21  <Wolf01> Hmmm, should I stop buy games?
19:41:40  <Flipp3rrr> That depends.
19:42:07  <Wolf01> I have humble monthly, I don't want to buy games I might get there
19:42:16  <Flipp3rrr> Have you actually played the games you already got for more or less than 10 hours in total?
19:42:41  <andythenorth> I only have 3 games
19:42:44  <Wolf01> Herm... yeah, all of them
19:42:51  <andythenorth> OpenTTD, patched OpenTTD...and Blitz ;P
19:43:00  <supermop_work> nielsm: +1 to seconds
19:43:16  <Flipp3rrr> andythenorth: What do you mean with "patched OpenTTD"?
19:43:41  <supermop_work> tbh one of the best parts of daylength patch was that it made it so much easier to think through timetables mentally
19:43:50  <andythenorth> OpenTTD with patches applied
19:44:13  <Flipp3rrr> andythenorth: What kind of patches?
19:44:31  <andythenorth> depends
19:44:43  <spnda> I have atleast 14 different patches
19:44:48  <andythenorth> usually one or more of these
19:44:50  <spnda> or versions of the game
19:45:01  <andythenorth> like the town patch from Eddi|zuHause
19:45:06  <andythenorth> that ahem...needs finished
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19:51:58  <LordAro> nielsm: i like it, i think
19:52:12  <LordAro> though changing the tick length makes me feel... uncomfortable
19:52:17  <LordAro> especially by as much as 10%
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19:52:53  <nielsm> it really should only affect the framerate and nothing else
19:53:14  <nielsm> though it seems it doesn't quite work as I get much too low framerate on win32_v
19:54:21  <nielsm> but yeah the basic idea is that you should be able to slow down the rate of calendar days to economy days, or even stop the passage of calendar time entirely
19:55:03  <nielsm> my thoughts about UI is to use a watch to indicate economy time, the "hours" showing the economy month and the "minutes" showing the economy day of month
19:55:18  <nielsm> (and it can double as the pause button)
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19:57:06  <nielsm> and the finances window could be changed to not use year numbers but instead something like P-0, P-1, P-2 (current penta, one penta back, two penta back)
19:58:01  <nielsm> and then go over all strings and change everything to refer to minutes/pentas
19:58:22  <nielsm> (yes "penta" is from greek and "quarter" is from latin, but it sounds better)
19:58:27  <nielsm> (to me)
20:03:46  <spnda> what about not having the framerate attached to the tickspeed of the game?
20:04:02  <nielsm> that would also be good
20:04:27  <spnda> sometimes feels really weird playing a 30fps game on a 165hz monitor
20:15:38  <nielsm> all you'd get would be smoother mouse cursor at best
20:16:04  <glx> would be nice when debugging big games :)
20:18:11  <frosch123> what happened to the os-powered mouse cursor patches
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20:55:58  <andythenorth> so can we have a hotkey to cycle the company colour on a vehicle?
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22:10:53  <Eddi|zuHause> <Wolf01> Hmmm, should I stop buy games? <-- only 2 of my games qualified for this year's steam awards. and one of them i won randomly somewhere, and it didn't really run on my PC
22:11:13  <Eddi|zuHause> the other was astroneer, which doesn't currently run either :p
22:17:47  <andythenorth> we should crowdfund eddi a PC :P
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23:11:12  <milek7_> argh, as if opengl didn't have enough quirks
23:11:17  <milek7_> opengl es add some more..
23:12:47  <FLHerne> Yeah, GLES is like GL, but you get to shout "wait, I can't use THAT EITHER?!" at your monitor every half-hour
23:13:05  <FLHerne> And the drivers are all buggier
23:14:15  <milek7_> it is not even a subset of desktop gl
23:14:18  <milek7_> for some features it is not possible to write one codepath compatible with both..
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23:14:55  <LordAro> FLHerne: :D
23:16:18  <FLHerne> milek7_: I think most desktop drivers implement GL_ARB_ES3_1_COMPATIBILITY
23:16:23  <FLHerne>
23:16:56  <FLHerne> Well, it's a required feature in GL4.5, so everything supporting that has it by default
23:16:56  <LordAro> i think GL3 is a reasonable minimum at this point
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23:18:03  <FLHerne> Oh, GL4.1 mandates ES2 compat, and GL4.2 has ES3.0 compat
23:18:13  <milek7_> yes, but it requires 4.5..
23:18:22  <FLHerne> Of course, ES2 is horrible
23:19:06  <milek7_> i would like to use 4.5, but there is still many users of older versions
23:19:39  <milek7_> e.g. DSA is only in 4.5
23:20:01  <FLHerne> milek7_: It's only /required/ in 4.5, but many of the drivers for older hardware implement it as an extension
23:20:07  <milek7_> (there's earlier DSA as extension.. but it is different)
23:20:25  <FLHerne> e.g. this laptop I'm typing on only supports GL3.3, but exposes GL_ARB_ES3_2_compatibility
23:21:58  <FLHerne> Hm, 56% of 0ad players had ES3.0 compat in 2015
23:22:16  <FLHerne> I don't know what four years have done to that number
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