Times are UTC Toggle Colours
00:01:02 *** supermop_work has quit IRC 00:04:02 *** Thedarkb-X40 has joined #openttd 01:16:00 <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/website] James103 opened issue #112: Suggestion: Make author and date added always publicly visible on bananas.openttd.org https://git.io/JeDiD 01:18:01 *** Flygon has joined #openttd 01:20:52 <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/website] James103 commented on issue #89: Obsolete form for adding Newgrf to bananas.openttd.org https://git.io/fjCeD 01:26:38 *** Smedles has quit IRC 01:27:42 *** Smedles has joined #openttd 01:30:36 *** Thedarkb-X40 has quit IRC 03:06:11 *** snail_UES_ has joined #openttd 03:17:00 *** D-HUND has joined #openttd 03:20:27 *** debdog has quit IRC 03:37:35 *** supermop_work has joined #openttd 03:42:06 *** y2kboy23 has quit IRC 03:44:35 *** y2kboy23 has joined #openttd 03:58:19 *** glx has quit IRC 04:07:48 *** supermop_work has quit IRC 04:12:46 *** supermop_work has joined #openttd 04:15:26 *** supermop_work has quit IRC 04:17:58 *** supermop_work has joined #openttd 04:27:39 *** Laedek has quit IRC 04:35:34 *** Wormnest_ has quit IRC 04:39:11 *** snail_UES_ has quit IRC 04:40:06 *** Wormnest_ has joined #openttd 04:48:00 *** supermop_work has quit IRC 04:50:04 *** WormnestAndroid has quit IRC 04:51:33 *** WormnestAndroid has joined #openttd 05:07:44 *** WormnestAndroid has quit IRC 05:08:00 *** Laedek has joined #openttd 05:08:40 *** WormnestAndroid has joined #openttd 05:19:09 *** Smedles has quit IRC 05:20:25 *** Smedles has joined #openttd 05:32:14 *** Wormnest_ has quit IRC 06:41:01 *** Flipp3rrr has joined #openttd 06:55:22 *** Flipp3rrr has quit IRC 06:59:02 *** namad7 has joined #openttd 07:00:45 *** namad7 has quit IRC 07:49:20 <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/website] LordAro commented on issue #112: Suggestion: Make author and date added always publicly visible on bananas.openttd.org https://git.io/JeDiD 07:49:54 <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/website] LordAro commented on issue #89: Obsolete form for adding Newgrf to bananas.openttd.org https://git.io/fjCeD 07:52:50 *** Heiki has quit IRC 07:54:45 *** Heiki has joined #openttd 08:50:01 *** StraToN has left #openttd 09:36:45 *** nielsm has joined #openttd 11:04:15 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd 11:11:26 <andythenorth> o/ 11:18:21 *** andythenorth has quit IRC 11:20:07 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd 11:27:30 *** andythenorth has quit IRC 11:31:03 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd 11:37:12 *** supermop_work has joined #openttd 11:50:29 <nielsm> hmm, big challenge with this NoCalendar idea might be linkgraph/timetables 11:53:54 <andythenorth> frigging timetables :) 12:07:07 *** supermop_work has quit IRC 12:38:06 *** tokai|noir has joined #openttd 12:38:06 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai|noir 12:45:04 *** tokai has quit IRC 12:48:34 <nielsm> and lots of complexities with service interval (and presentation of that) too 12:52:33 <andythenorth> hmm 12:53:32 * andythenorth tries to picture it all 12:53:33 <andythenorth> ouch 12:54:09 <andythenorth> can this ever work, without the pre-requisite of decoupling all cyclical actions from the calendar datetime? 12:59:38 <andythenorth> what else works on days, besides servicing, timetables 13:00:05 <andythenorth> anything in newgrf that works by comparing datetimes 13:05:57 *** Flygon has quit IRC 13:15:12 *** Samu has joined #openttd 13:30:29 *** snail_UES_ has joined #openttd 13:34:14 *** spnda has joined #openttd 13:45:40 <Eddi|zuHause> that's exactly the kind of problem that made any previous daylength patch fail 13:58:29 *** snail_UES_ has quit IRC 14:24:06 *** supermop_work has joined #openttd 14:31:59 <Sacro> Don't mock my daylength patch :( 14:33:17 <andythenorth> ouch 14:33:28 <andythenorth> when I see the word 'sacro' now I just associate it with back pain :P 14:33:59 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: so we're back at 'daylength can never work'? 14:47:00 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: no, but it needs a kind of sophisticated and thorough approach that is really unlikely to emerge in a hobby project 14:47:49 <Eddi|zuHause> (not that it would be any more likely in a professional project, with deadlines and such) 14:50:13 <andythenorth> hmmm 14:50:19 <andythenorth> what a funny position to be boxed into 14:50:36 <andythenorth> * players use daylength to address issues they percieve as real and important 14:50:48 <andythenorth> * daylength "just works" in JGR 14:50:56 <andythenorth> * daylength can never work in the real world 14:50:57 <andythenorth> how odd :) 14:51:16 <andythenorth> fallacies are strange and interesting 15:00:02 <planetmaker> @ports 15:00:02 <DorpsGek> planetmaker: OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication, UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advertise) communication (outbound), and TCP port 3978 for content service, a.k.a. BaNaNaS (outbound) 15:00:02 *** WormnestAndroid has quit IRC 15:03:36 <supermop_work> andythenorth: who says it 'just works'? 15:03:55 <andythenorth> same as before, vocal posters on forums or reddit 15:04:05 <andythenorth> likely a handful of posters 15:04:42 <planetmaker> the difference between "works for my use case" and "works for everyone and in every corner case" 15:05:17 <planetmaker> Also... can be done without accomodating everyone's needs... after all it's *adding* something, defaults remain 15:05:20 <andythenorth> I used to play with multiple newgrf sets enabled :P 15:05:26 <andythenorth> 'just works' 15:05:29 <andythenorth> until it doesn't 15:05:42 <planetmaker> in which case it's the newgrfs faults. not openttds :) :P 15:05:51 <andythenorth> I think it was my fault tbh 15:06:04 <planetmaker> also: it's not exactly a requirement that existing newgrfs behave nicely with all daylength settings. 15:06:24 <planetmaker> It's absolutely ok to expose some variables for newgrfs to take into account daylength 15:06:53 <planetmaker> it's just a question of default settings. And adopting NewGRFs / OpenTTD settings, if they don't suit you. Like always 15:07:06 <planetmaker> there's no no-config solution which is good for everyone. There cannot be 15:08:03 <andythenorth> I might just solve this myself 15:13:32 *** APTX_ has joined #openttd 15:18:43 *** APTX has quit IRC 15:21:04 *** WormnestAndroid has joined #openttd 15:33:53 *** Wormnest_ has joined #openttd 15:43:43 <Eddi|zuHause> <andythenorth> * daylength "just works" in JGR 15:43:44 <Eddi|zuHause> <andythenorth> * daylength can never work in the real world 15:43:46 <Eddi|zuHause> there's a difference between "works for me", "works for a general audience" and "is sustainable/maintainable" 15:44:38 <Eddi|zuHause> that difference is usually something like "takes 3 hours to implement" and "takes 3 months to implement" 15:52:19 *** supermop_work has quit IRC 15:52:57 <FLHerne> andythenorth: The people for whom it doesn't "just work" stop using and suggesting it :P 15:55:05 <andythenorth> so we see a form of confirmation bias 15:55:14 <FLHerne> Yes 15:55:59 <andythenorth> I can't leave problems like this alone, it's like picking a scab :P 15:56:23 <andythenorth> anyway, how shall I implement the parameter solution in newgrfs? 15:56:31 <andythenorth> 'length of each generation'? 15:56:34 <andythenorth> 'scaling factor'? 15:57:03 <FLHerne> andythenorth: "Length of generation" is pointless and won't make anyone happy 15:57:21 <andythenorth> pikka has solved this, where's the link :P 15:57:31 *** supermop_work has joined #openttd 15:57:39 <FLHerne> The people who care about 'realism' want specific in-game dates, regardless of whether that makes any practical difference ;-) 15:57:54 <FLHerne> Production scaling factor is probably the useful one 15:58:45 <FLHerne> Either in vanilla as an alternative to that misuse of 'daylength', or to correct for it when people use daylength for intro dates and don't want an effective reduction in cargo 15:59:50 <andythenorth> https://irclogs.thegrebs.com/openttd/2019/11/17#03:23 16:01:40 <FLHerne> I remember seeing that, it's still wrong :P 16:04:24 *** WormnestAndroid has quit IRC 16:04:42 <milek7_> i have git branch with my changes on top of earlier PR. PR was merged but squashed, and now i want to rebase only my commits onto tip of master 16:04:51 <milek7_> is it possible to rebase it automatically, or i have to cherry-pick manually? 16:04:54 *** pina[m] has joined #openttd 16:08:32 <andythenorth> we just need an "it's always 1965" button 16:08:55 <milek7_> 'calendar pause' 16:09:21 <milek7_> groundhog day mode 16:11:58 *** APTX_ has quit IRC 16:13:09 *** APTX has joined #openttd 16:18:57 <milek7_> ok, `git rebase --onto master last_commit_on_squashed_pr my_branch` did it 16:24:40 <nielsm> andythenorth: yeah that's basically what I'm trying to do, but maybe I'm doing it the wrong way around 16:25:23 * andythenorth wonders how many places the month-year is shown :P 16:25:26 <andythenorth> and if we can hide them all 16:25:40 <andythenorth> I could invent 12 fake month names 16:25:54 <andythenorth> and we could just cycle them, whilst not incremementing the year 16:31:14 <planetmaker> January, Jabuary, February, Mebruary, March, Aprirch, April, Maypril, May, ... 16:36:26 <andythenorth> nice :) 16:39:45 <Sacro> Smarch? 16:39:50 <Sacro> Lousy smarch weather 16:41:37 <planetmaker> Currently it's quite typical Nocember weather 16:42:29 <planetmaker> quite a bit colder than in Octember 16:42:35 <planetmaker> or even Septober 16:44:04 <andythenorth> fake months, and it's always 1965 16:44:21 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: use the month names from the french revolution? 16:44:29 <andythenorth> wfm 16:45:12 <andythenorth> we should have done levels 16:45:43 <andythenorth> games like Township are just levels, no dates https://heavyeditorial.files.wordpress.com/2019/06/township-buildings.jpg?quality=65&strip=all&w=780&h=439 16:46:23 <planetmaker> hm... Hartung, Hornung, Lenzing, Ostermond, Maien, Brachet, Heuet, Ernting, Herbstmond, Gilbhard, Nebelung und Julmond? 16:46:44 <Sacro> Nebelung sounds painful 16:46:55 *** sla_ro|master has joined #openttd 16:47:01 <andythenorth> level 7: you get the Chaney Jubilee 16:47:01 <planetmaker> translates to foggy-month 16:47:14 <planetmaker> or misty-month. whatever 16:52:27 <supermop_work> 13 month calendar? 16:52:37 <andythenorth> 28 month calendar 16:52:47 <andythenorth> maybe that's the serious solution :P 16:53:12 <supermop_work> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Fixed_Calendar 16:53:37 <supermop_work> i always find it hard to believe that people at kodak were actually using this 16:55:32 <andythenorth> how many months per year: '256' 16:56:00 <andythenorth> solves everything no? 16:56:15 <andythenorth> all 'per month' 'every x days' keep working 16:56:28 <andythenorth> vehicle intro *year* is unaffected 16:56:31 <planetmaker> hm... 2*12=28? :P 16:56:47 <andythenorth> arbitrary numbers :P 16:56:53 <andythenorth> newgrf keeps working 16:56:59 <andythenorth> except for seasonal snowline :( 16:57:00 <andythenorth> oh 16:57:04 <planetmaker> except yearly expenses etc :P 16:57:15 <andythenorth> my idea is dead, it will break seasonal snowline 16:57:19 <planetmaker> except introduction dates 16:57:19 <andythenorth> oof 16:57:35 <andythenorth> intro dates would be fine 16:58:42 <planetmaker> well, solution really is *day* length :) 16:58:57 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i've no clue what problem you're trying to solve, but it's almost certainly not one anyone who uses daylength would be looking for 16:58:58 <planetmaker> which can be ticks/day 16:59:31 <andythenorth> yes, but we've established that daylength is impossible Eddi|zuHause 16:59:35 <andythenorth> so what might satisfice? 16:59:53 <andythenorth> we've also established that daylength in JGR satisfices, even though it's known not to work 17:00:01 <planetmaker> and includes to adopt monthly, yearly, and "tick"ly callbacks by whatever scaling deemed appropriate for whatever function 17:00:37 <planetmaker> making the scaling configurable basically solves it... everyone can set the things to bug where they want :P 17:00:44 <andythenorth> the perceived problem is solved - comprehensively - by a non-working solution 17:00:57 <andythenorth> so what can we do equivalently, given that nobody is prepared to just merge the non-working solution 17:00:59 <andythenorth> ? 17:01:14 <andythenorth> JGR has won because of daylength, the forums and reddit are quite clear 17:01:38 <andythenorth> they don't complain about daylength not working, they are adamant it works 17:02:00 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: any gameplay that is currently tied to a recurring cycle, must be reviewed and explicitly tied to a "tick" or a "day" cycle 17:02:38 *** WormnestAndroid has joined #openttd 17:02:43 <supermop_work> Eddi|zuHause: andy is just being willfully difficult again? 17:02:46 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: only after that is done, you can reliably add a setting for daylength 17:02:47 <planetmaker> andythenorth, the people who play JGR - often for daylength reasons - are satisfied with it. Doesn't mean others who want a daylength want that daylength. Sample bias at its best 17:03:17 <andythenorth> they're not reporting that though? 17:03:27 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: they're never reporting that. 17:03:44 <andythenorth> squeaky wheel gets the oil 17:03:44 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: look at any mention of "well tested" in the logs/forum 17:04:00 <andythenorth> supermop_work nah I just want it solved 17:04:26 <planetmaker> why should I report anything about something I haven't really tried? Or what I know is designed to work for some way but not generally? It's measured by different standards 17:04:34 <andythenorth> and nothing gets solved by attempting to use a solution that has already been defined as unworkable 17:04:39 <andythenorth> it needs an oblique approach 17:04:42 *** jgr_ has joined #openttd 17:05:25 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: dunno, the "do nothing" approach seems to be working fine for the last 14-ish years 17:05:35 <jgr_> My patchpack is not about daylength, it really isn't that big an issue in the big scheme of things 17:05:38 <planetmaker> it is an excellent test field. But it is not expected to solve every problem 17:06:27 <planetmaker> I'm not claiming it is, jgr_ :) But it *is* a playground for people who love daylength - at least in the form implemented 17:06:48 <planetmaker> doesn't say all use it :) 17:07:58 <planetmaker> and ofc those who don't use it... don't report any opinion on it either 17:08:59 * andythenorth wonders about a timeless mode 17:09:09 <planetmaker> same thing, same problems 17:09:18 <nielsm> you still need to keep _some_ form of time 17:09:20 <andythenorth> FIRS mostly ignores any dates, because industry transitions just do not work 17:09:30 <andythenorth> years / dates /s 17:09:36 <planetmaker> they work for default oil 17:09:44 <andythenorth> FIRS has some stupid legacy stuff like date-sensitive graphics 17:09:48 <FLHerne> supermop_work: Yeah, definitely 17:10:06 <FLHerne> planetmaker: Everyone hates them for default oil ;-) 17:10:09 <planetmaker> I don't consider date-sensitive graphics "stupid legacy" 17:10:23 <FLHerne> (Everyone™) 17:10:25 <nielsm> at the timescale (speed) TT plays at, more than one or two industry transitions don't really make sense 17:10:48 <planetmaker> FLHerne, agreed, it's not the feature I'm looking for in default industries... it's annoying :P 17:10:49 <FLHerne> That's something where daylength might actually allow for different mechanics 17:10:50 <nielsm> and the oil wells => oil platforms transition made somewhat more sense in TTO when its 1930 start than the TTD 1950 start 17:11:13 * andythenorth wonders about deleting 5 of the 6 generations in Iron Horse 17:11:30 <andythenorth> it would be much smaller grf, saves bandwidth + compile time 17:11:32 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Personally, the most tempting things in JGRPP have nothing to do with daylength 17:11:33 <andythenorth> let's see 17:11:58 <nielsm> andythenorth: define a railtype for each generation then you can just build a depot for just the generation you want to play with 17:12:03 <planetmaker> nielsm, yes. And it highly depends on how one wants to play. Actually the transition is probably more fun, when you have slower time. It comes too quickly 17:12:37 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Signal routing restrictions, bridges over stations and template-based train replacement are all much nicer to me 17:12:37 <planetmaker> hehe... the day when OpenTTD is bandwidth limited will still need to come. 17:13:16 <FLHerne> andythenorth: I *still* think you're getting hung up on daylength out of all proportion to its actual impact ;-) 17:13:38 <FLHerne> Not that it's not worth discussing 17:14:01 <jgr_> Trying to simultaneously solve all time scaling issues for all users is a non-starter 17:14:16 <FLHerne> But this "JGR has won because..." and "everyone has switched to because..." is counterfactual hyperbole 17:14:43 <andythenorth> I'm talking about a handful of very vocal users 17:14:49 <andythenorth> for which daylength is the primary benefit 17:15:02 <jgr_> The existing economy, time and scaling is entirely arbitary and it is OK for modifications to also be arbitrary 17:16:54 <Eddi|zuHause> wtf does Lutris exist for? i've never clicked on a lutris install script, and had the resulting game actually run properly 17:17:45 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the problem with including daylength into the main game is the part of the audience which is NOT this vocal core group 17:18:42 <andythenorth> I don't know about serving the apparent needs of people who aren't asking for anything 17:18:48 <FLHerne> Eddi|zuHause: Well, if it's optional... 17:18:48 <andythenorth> not sure how we'd discover those 17:18:50 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: so, step 1 of including a daylength patch is "make sure, nothing changes for people who don't want daylength", and step 2 is "make sure it works for people who have no clue they want daylength, but randomly enable it anyway" 17:18:55 <andythenorth> we can anticipate needs ourselves of course 17:19:05 <andythenorth> that's a valid design approach 17:19:41 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the needs of the vocal minority is satisfied with JGR-PP existing 17:20:11 <FLHerne> Just checking before I try doing it: in NML, is there any particular reason why the various operators aren't just subclasses of BinOp? 17:20:35 <Eddi|zuHause> FLHerne: no clue, i wasn't involved with the design of that 17:21:18 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: they're not, they need the industry grfs patched 17:21:33 <FLHerne> There's all sorts of behaviour `if isinstance(op, nmlop.ADD): ... elif isinstance(op, nmlop.SUB): ...` that would be much nicer if they just implemented it themselves 17:21:49 <FLHerne> ('just' :P) 17:22:15 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: so you're saying the existing implementation doesn't actually implement the requirements? then what would be solved by merging the existing implementation? 17:22:22 <andythenorth> nothing 17:22:27 <andythenorth> nobody is going to merge that 17:22:39 <andythenorth> the oblique solution is needed 17:22:39 <FLHerne> andythenorth: If they want industry grfs patched to counteract the current effect, then that's because they don't want that kind of meh Eddi just said it 17:22:42 <Eddi|zuHause> then what's the fuzz about? 17:23:11 <andythenorth> finding a solution o/c 17:23:17 <andythenorth> it's a game 17:23:35 <jgr_> I don't see why industry GRFs should need to be patched 17:23:50 <andythenorth> production is too low 17:23:50 <jgr_> Making that a requirement would make the feature dead before it ever got off the ground 17:24:58 <andythenorth> https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=67&t=44177&start=1560#p1226802 17:25:01 <jgr_> Is that a problem? 17:25:50 <andythenorth> anyway, I think I'll end up doing what I was going to do all along :P 17:26:00 <andythenorth> which is add configurable intro dates to all my vehicle grfs 17:26:25 <andythenorth> nobody has been able to identify a better alternative 17:27:06 <jgr_> For me at least, vehicle into dates are a non-issue as I usually start the game when all that finished anyhow 17:27:09 <jgr_> is* 17:27:51 *** lastmikoi_ has joined #openttd 17:27:52 *** lastmikoi has quit IRC 17:28:03 *** lastmikoi_ is now known as lastmikoi 17:29:26 <FLHerne> andythenorth: configurable production + existing daylength is much closer to players' demands than configurable intro dates + vanilla 17:30:09 <planetmaker> yeah, probably 17:30:11 <FLHerne> The "daylength for low production!" people are mostly happy with existing daylength 17:30:32 <planetmaker> well. configurable production + configurable daylength (which exists, right?) 17:30:38 <andythenorth> the intro dates aren't to solve daylength 17:30:46 <FLHerne> The "daylength for realism!" people, when not intersecting the above, wouldn't be satisfied with different intro dates because they aren't realistic :P 17:30:46 <jgr_> Configurable production doesn't exist, as far as I am aware 17:30:48 <andythenorth> and if they don't solve daylength, I won't explain them as such 17:30:53 <andythenorth> this was helpful 17:31:19 <andythenorth> I think I'll just copy Pikka's 'generation lock' feature 17:31:25 <planetmaker> xxx for realism is a thing which does not fly with any feature in OpenTTD :P 17:31:41 <FLHerne> jgr_: I mean, if andy patches his grfs, patching FIRS to add configurable production (as per that thread) would make people happier than patching the vehicle dates 17:31:55 <FLHerne> planetmaker: You'd be surprised? 17:32:05 <planetmaker> by what? 17:32:13 <FLHerne> There's, like, UKRS2+ and WAS and BROS or whatever its successor is 17:32:19 <FLHerne> And the entire screenshot subforum 17:32:25 <FLHerne> And all of my savegames 17:32:25 <andythenorth> RUKTS 17:32:32 <planetmaker> yes... but realistically speaking, it's not realistic :) 17:32:48 <jgr_> Realism is relative 17:32:51 <planetmaker> it's just graphics which somewhat resemble to look like real vehicles 17:33:06 <planetmaker> but their acceleration is strange as time and distance is strange 17:33:14 <FLHerne> planetmaker: It's weird how suspension of disbelief can stretch to cover everything being isometric pixels, but not intricate details of vehicle types :P 17:33:42 <jgr_> Comparing stuff from openttdcoop to much of the screenshot, it is easy to see which is intended to approximate realism 17:33:43 <planetmaker> they even change length when they drive -- or // or \ or || 17:33:45 <planetmaker> depends :) 17:33:47 <jgr_> thread* 17:34:23 <FLHerne> AAUI, the majority of the "slower intro dates" demand is specifically to play with all of the odd variants in the "comprehensive [country] trainset" grfs 17:34:30 <planetmaker> well, coop certainly does not go for realism on its servers. Usually. 17:34:38 <FLHerne> Which is why andy's proposed solution doesn't solve anything 17:34:41 <planetmaker> and yes @FLHerne . And I can very well understand that 17:35:10 <andythenorth> what I haven't figured out is how to do progression with a generation lock 17:35:15 <FLHerne> The people wanting it are people like, say, me, and I don't play IH much anyway for the reasons we discussed a few weeks ago 17:35:19 <planetmaker> (some) people want a slow game and go through the 1920s, 1930s such that they can actually enjoy the vehicles without them being obsolete after 30 minutes of real time gameplay 17:35:29 <planetmaker> (or whatever years it is) 17:35:42 <FLHerne> [afk, sorry] 17:36:00 <andythenorth> planetmaker: that's why I was thinking of a configurable generation length 17:36:03 <andythenorth> or generation lock 17:36:14 *** HerzogDeXtEr has joined #openttd 17:36:32 <andythenorth> I supposed 'vehicles never expire' doesn't solve it? 17:36:48 <andythenorth> also Iron Horse is completely incompatible with 'vehicles never expire' :P 17:36:53 <planetmaker> yes... that somewhat would solve it. But not idealy. Dates are all wrong etc. Realism means then to have approx. the correct date displayed 17:37:21 <planetmaker> if you don't care about date, I do as jgr said: start after all vehicles are present, and buy whatever suits me 17:37:23 *** Samu has quit IRC 17:37:36 <planetmaker> be that slow and early or fast and late 17:38:30 <andythenorth> I don't care about the date 17:38:43 <planetmaker> then daylength is a non-issue for you 17:38:49 <andythenorth> this discussion shows I can just discount daylength 17:38:53 <planetmaker> just play with vehicles never expire and all is fine 17:38:53 <andythenorth> it's of no relevance 17:39:06 <andythenorth> Iron Horse is incompatible with 'never expire' :) 17:39:16 <planetmaker> contact the author and complain :P 17:39:24 <andythenorth> I could just patch the grf locally :P 17:39:25 <planetmaker> I'm sure you got the contact ;) 17:39:34 <andythenorth> version 2.5: only vehicles for 1960 are included 17:39:42 <andythenorth> version 2.6: I got bored, now I'm playing 1870 17:39:58 <planetmaker> hm... t(pi)... variable time with loops 17:40:16 <andythenorth> maybe I should split Iron Horse into multiple grfs 17:40:21 <andythenorth> 1 per generation 17:42:17 <Eddi|zuHause> (i think we had that discussion already) 17:42:50 <andythenorth> I considered 1 grf per roster alternately 17:42:55 <andythenorth> not sure which way to cut it up 17:43:23 <andythenorth> I wish we could package multiple grfs into a single installable wrapper 17:44:47 <nielsm> 3 settings per generation, "enabled", "year introduced", "year expires" 17:45:01 <andythenorth> that works for a single-roster grf 17:45:23 <andythenorth> it collapses when there's a choice between 'British-ish trains', 'American-ish trains' 17:45:31 <andythenorth> which have different tech trees 17:45:44 <andythenorth> this points to splitting Iron Horse by roster 17:51:43 *** sla_ro|master has quit IRC 17:55:57 *** Progman has joined #openttd 17:56:40 *** supermop_work has quit IRC 17:59:01 <andythenorth> BIAB 17:59:05 *** andythenorth has quit IRC 18:00:03 *** Wolf01 has joined #openttd 18:00:04 <Eddi|zuHause> (no, this points to the approach chosen not being the correct solution either) 18:00:39 <jgr_> Unfortunately there is no singular "correct" solution 18:03:15 <Eddi|zuHause> i always wanted a series of "game scale" options, of which daylength would be a part 18:03:19 <Wolf01> I can't understand how IH would be incompatible with never expires 18:03:44 <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: that's a case of "andy uses words differently than normal people" 18:03:54 <Wolf01> Oh ok 18:04:11 <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: what he (probably) means is "the purchase list gets too long for my taste" 18:04:19 <Wolf01> :D 18:04:50 <Eddi|zuHause> we already have a game scale option: plane speed 18:04:51 <Wolf01> Hide vehicles then, you can do it,,, 18:05:41 <Wolf01> Yes, I thought to port it to other vehicles too when I made the last daylength attempt 18:06:11 <Eddi|zuHause> other options could be: production rates, decay speed (ratings, reliability), ... 18:08:27 <Wolf01> If we make everything parametric and then pass a multiplier/divider, wouldn't it set the entire game pace as one could want? 18:08:46 <jgr_> It would be easy to end up adding a lot of knobs which users then don't know what to do with 18:08:55 <Eddi|zuHause> yes. 18:09:04 <Wolf01> No, just one, you speed up or slow down, everything 18:09:35 <Eddi|zuHause> the problem with too few knobs is you get endless arguing what the knob should do or shouldn't do 18:09:52 <Wolf01> If you really want you can bury the settings on the config file like PBS ones, but on the options you only have one master value 18:09:56 <Eddi|zuHause> which has happened to almost every daylength patch so far 18:10:18 <planetmaker> Wolf01, yes 18:10:45 <planetmaker> definitely not as part of the basic settings :P 18:10:47 <Eddi|zuHause> i see no problem with having several settings, as long as each has a clear domain and a clear description 18:11:21 <Wolf01> The main problem is that if you configure the game in a way the economy doesn't scale up with speed it's your fault 18:11:33 <Eddi|zuHause> oh, we also have another game scale setting already: cargo weight multiplier 18:11:45 <planetmaker> also yes 18:12:03 <planetmaker> summary settings might be exposed in UI. But the detailed scaling might be cfg-only 18:12:36 <Eddi|zuHause> i see no point in hiding the settings in cfg. you do that for things which would be dangerous to change for uninformed people 18:12:37 <jgr_> The problem with cfg-only detail settings is that non-default values are rarely if ever tested 18:13:12 <planetmaker> then make it UI :) 18:13:22 <jgr_> It is easy to crash OpenTTD by careless changing of some the signal pathfinder penalty settings, for example 18:13:59 <planetmaker> hm :) 18:14:04 <Wolf01> If you want to fine-tune something you should know wath you are doing 18:14:37 <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: maybe, but that doesn't really apply here 18:14:54 <Wolf01> And not samu-setting end scale values to see what happens 18:15:55 <Eddi|zuHause> a propos end-scale: some daylength patches were known for overflowing tick counters and stuff 18:16:14 <Wolf01> Yes, I know 18:19:19 <Eddi|zuHause> which is another of those elaborate under-the-hood stuffs, that's escalating the problem from "3 hours" to "3 months" 18:20:16 <jgr_> At least for my implementation, the most cumbersome part was timetables, followed by making various fields wider 18:21:39 *** sla_ro|master has joined #openttd 18:22:31 <jgr_> Including the NewGRF layer in this would probably push timescaled well beyond 3 months though 18:24:13 <jgr_> For the existing daylength patches, not involving the NewGRF layer is probably a bigger design influence than what people thought the knob should do 18:34:10 <peter1138> Oh! A wild jgr! 18:35:35 <Eddi|zuHause> jgr_: i can imagine. however, andy's actionism is more like a boss entering the room shouting "why isn't anything done yet", which doesn't help anyone who might actually be working on it 18:37:37 *** Eddi|zuHause has quit IRC 18:38:28 *** Eddi|zuHause has joined #openttd 18:39:05 *** frosch123 has joined #openttd 18:42:10 *** jgr_ has quit IRC 18:46:05 *** Eddi|zuHause has quit IRC 18:49:29 *** Eddi|zuHause2 has joined #openttd 18:52:38 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd 18:55:33 <andythenorth> quak 18:55:55 <Wolf01> So, what's your excuse now? 18:56:34 <andythenorth> Blitz? 18:56:41 <andythenorth> what was the question? 18:57:04 <Wolf01> <Wolf01> I can't understand how IH would be incompatible with never expires 18:57:14 <andythenorth> oh way too many vehicles 18:57:26 <andythenorth> like a stupid number 18:57:55 <andythenorth> partly because the game runs too fast 18:58:32 <andythenorth> @calc 84 + 314 18:58:32 <DorpsGek> andythenorth: 398 18:58:41 <andythenorth> yeah way too many, I could just delete 50% of them 18:59:06 <andythenorth> https://firs-test-1.s3.eu-west-2.amazonaws.com/iron-horse/docs/html/trains.html 18:59:07 <Wolf01> Make a setting "only the vehicles I play often" 18:59:50 <Wolf01> Is it finished or there are still dummy graphics on some vehicles? 19:00:03 <andythenorth> the released version 100% of sprites are complete 19:00:09 <andythenorth> some cargos are very generic 19:01:19 <Wolf01> Is there a setting to filter out the wagon sizes? 19:01:51 <frosch123> add a setting: roaster size, 25%, 50%, 75%, 100% of vehicles are introduced, rest is skipped, randomised by game seed 19:01:58 <andythenorth> Wolf01: you started all this :P http://webster.openttdcoop.org/?channel=openttd&date=1533340800#1533373422 19:02:00 <andythenorth> 2018 19:02:17 <frosch123> Wolf01: players can already hide individual vehicles from purchase list 19:02:17 <andythenorth> frosch123: I seriously considered random roster :P 19:02:33 <Wolf01> I would always use one size, medium or large, I doubt to use small ones if not on early ages 19:02:57 <andythenorth> I tested a parameter for that 19:03:05 <andythenorth> forums said 'no need' but 19:03:14 <andythenorth> if you play test Horse and want it, I'll add it 19:03:18 <Wolf01> <andythenorth> Wolf01: you started all this <- I know, I'm one of the top activists for daylength 19:03:29 <andythenorth> "wagons: all | smallest | medium | largest" 19:03:32 *** supermop_work has joined #openttd 19:07:32 *** Eddi|zuHause2 is now known as Eddi|zuHause 19:07:38 <Eddi|zuHause> <andythenorth> 2018 <-- more like 2006? :p 19:10:05 <andythenorth> I didn't look that far back :) 19:12:42 <Eddi|zuHause> [So Jun 25 2006] [19:55:44] <Wolf01> http://www.tt-forums.net//files/daylength_405.diff 19:13:10 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: see if you can find the patch you wrote that resets the year on a tick-tock :P 19:13:16 <andythenorth> you denied all knowledge last time 19:13:38 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i'm fairly convinced i had no involvement in that 19:13:47 <andythenorth> I can't find it in logs 19:13:55 <andythenorth> there's an equivalent patch in forums 19:16:13 <andythenorth> if game progression was 50% of current rate, I could maybe cut out 50% of Iron Horse :P 19:16:33 <andythenorth> and remove the fairly small tedious stats progression steps 19:17:25 <Eddi|zuHause> not quite following your logic 19:21:52 <andythenorth> there is a decent length of game which is about 80 years, approximately 19:22:19 <andythenorth> in real-world clock time 19:22:23 <andythenorth> and because realism, that requires new trains every 30 years or so 19:22:27 <andythenorth> which imposes a lot of generations 19:22:46 <andythenorth> and the desire to use early or late stage tech extends that either end 19:24:45 <andythenorth> to play for the same number of hours IRL, and have the in-game year advance at half the rate 19:24:58 <andythenorth> means that fewer generations are needed 19:25:05 <andythenorth> which means fewer fine-grained stat increases 19:30:21 <Eddi|zuHause> still not making any sense 19:30:56 <nielsm> fewer generations means longer between generation changes, slower game year advance means same number of game years take longer real time 19:31:14 <nielsm> combining them means four times as long real time between generations 19:31:49 <andythenorth> yes 19:31:54 <andythenorth> exactly 19:32:15 <Eddi|zuHause> but... those things are completely orthogonal? 19:33:05 <Eddi|zuHause> why would a change in one area facilitate/nececitate/enable the other? 19:33:22 <andythenorth> eh what? 19:33:50 <andythenorth> playing for the same amount of RL time 19:33:56 <andythenorth> game year advances 1930-2010 19:34:01 <andythenorth> or 1930-1970 19:34:08 <andythenorth> the first option requires many more trains 19:35:41 <Eddi|zuHause> but, you're now splitting your audience into people who want 1930-1970 or 1970-2010, each demanding a logical game progression 19:36:06 <Eddi|zuHause> of early, mid and late game 19:38:11 <nielsm> well then what even defines a set of currently available vehicles etc. as being early/mid/late game? 19:38:38 <andythenorth> my grfs currently cover 1860-2030 and it's too much 19:38:59 <andythenorth> I do 1860 because Dan MacK really wanted 1860 start 19:39:07 <andythenorth> and I go to 2030 because it was requested 19:39:18 <andythenorth> but it would be better to do 1930-2030 and that be all 19:39:27 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: there's no reason why these requests would disappear with daylength available 19:39:29 <andythenorth> maybe I should just do that, Eddi|zuHause is correct 19:39:36 <frosch123> should newgrf phone home to report which vehicles are used? :p 19:41:37 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: in CETS i have parameters for each era (pre-1920, 1920-50, 1950-1990, post-1990), which you can enable and disable at will 19:41:59 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: and the last enabled era will have expanded model life 19:42:34 <Eddi|zuHause> while each era will still have some progression within it 19:43:03 <Eddi|zuHause> problem is, almost nobody will set these parameters 19:43:34 <Eddi|zuHause> and i have too many options for each era (what you would call rosters) 19:43:50 <Eddi|zuHause> too many to pick a default 19:44:18 <andythenorth> does that give Wolf01 infinite steam era? 19:45:19 <Eddi|zuHause> no, as you would have to duplicate that for all other vehicles, buildings, whatever 19:48:55 *** Arveen2 has quit IRC 19:49:57 <andythenorth> yes but I can.... 19:50:43 *** Samu has joined #openttd 19:53:11 <andythenorth> I can do ships, trains, RVs, all with same parameter 19:58:41 <andythenorth> maybe not planes :P 20:01:33 <andythenorth> how long does Train Fever run? 20:04:19 <nielsm> 1850 to 2020 or there about 20:04:52 <nielsm> but I don't recall exactly how fast in-game year passes 20:05:06 <nielsm> (it's also hard to judge with the poor performance that game has in general) 20:11:03 *** arikover has joined #openttd 20:11:29 <andythenorth> ok so nielsm have you concluded the NoCalendar is too hard? 20:11:32 <andythenorth> or just a lot of work? 20:11:37 <nielsm> a lot of work 20:22:37 <Wolf01> I think I'm too much tired to do anything 20:23:55 *** glx has joined #openttd 20:23:55 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v glx 20:28:06 <andythenorth> so we concluded.... 20:28:15 <andythenorth> * daylength is possible just a lot of work? 20:28:19 <andythenorth> * Iron Horse is too big 20:28:30 <andythenorth> * confirmation bias exists 20:30:16 <frosch123> * there is not one ottd to rule them all 20:30:47 <andythenorth> that's in the game goals :D 20:32:18 <andythenorth> shall I do a company colour version of these wagons, as separate IDs? 20:32:19 <andythenorth> https://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/9546/silo_wagons.png 20:32:25 <andythenorth> I've run out of ctrl-click bits for them :P 20:32:33 <andythenorth> it's a short supply :P 20:33:22 <frosch123> you can turn iron horse into a lock picking game 20:33:54 <frosch123> player has to flip 2nd, 5th, 7th vehicle to unlock some special sprite 20:34:25 <andythenorth> I was considering modifier vehicles 20:34:29 <andythenorth> did V do that already? 20:34:34 <frosch123> have you considered implementing regearing by flipping n vehicles? with only 4 wagons you can get 16 regearing modes 20:34:37 <andythenorth> like a vehicle to set the livery, which goes invisible 20:34:59 <andythenorth> not sure I can check flip with offsets? 20:35:02 <andythenorth> in cb36? 20:35:04 <Wolf01> The short ones look like copy-pasted bits of the long ones... oh wait, they are :P 20:35:14 <andythenorth> Wolf01: funny that :P 20:35:21 <andythenorth> I have now pretty much drawn 20:35:22 <frosch123> you can't in cb36, but you do not need cb36 for livery 20:35:30 <andythenorth> do for regearing though? 20:35:52 <andythenorth> I have now pretty much drawn all the OO trains I had as a child 20:35:57 <andythenorth> and all the ones I wanted in the catalogue 20:36:01 <andythenorth> so life goals are complete 20:36:04 <frosch123> yeah, too bad, regearing wont work :) 20:36:30 <andythenorth> sad sad times 20:36:56 <andythenorth> regearing, change main engine, derate engine for reliability, change traction motors, add or remove ballast weight 20:37:02 <andythenorth> change springs for maximum speed 20:37:12 <andythenorth> isolate or enable carriage electric supply 20:37:14 <andythenorth> such realisms 20:38:14 <andythenorth> remind me, why aren't liveries (subtypes) a good idea? 20:38:42 <frosch123> for your purpose cargo subtypes are the ideal solution 20:39:17 <andythenorth> super! 20:39:22 <andythenorth> I must use them! 20:39:54 <andythenorth> I particularly like how they work with consist of mixed vehicles 20:39:54 <nielsm> but they don't work with auto-refit, right? 20:39:56 <frosch123> their downsides apply to the alternatives as well, but they were no concern to you 20:39:58 <Wolf01> Time to wreck IH? 20:40:23 <andythenorth> when a consist has different vehicles with multiple subtypes, the menu is so...usable :) 20:40:52 *** Smedles has quit IRC 20:41:34 <frosch123> nielsm: ottd is quite smart with matching subtypes, a lot of stuff actually works 20:42:08 *** Smedles has joined #openttd 20:42:08 *** spnda has quit IRC 20:44:07 <nielsm> I should go sleep, night 20:45:38 <andythenorth> frosch123: how about a magic hotkey to toggle 1CC / 2CC? o_O 20:46:05 <andythenorth> if enough silly things are said, one might stick :P 20:46:18 <frosch123> just use palette animation 20:46:54 <frosch123> even V didn't animate the rainbow on the slugs, so you can beat him to that 20:48:56 <andythenorth> taste the rainbow 20:49:18 <andythenorth> user-selectable palette cycle :P 20:52:08 *** nielsm has quit IRC 20:52:45 <Wolf01> Make engine front change color depending on current speed 20:53:09 * andythenorth wonders what var 47 is for 20:53:29 <andythenorth> oh not 47, F2, I misread wiki 20:53:40 * andythenorth wonders what var F2 is for 20:55:19 <andythenorth> oh callback 36 can write prop 25? 20:55:23 <andythenorth> so trains have perm. storage? 20:59:07 <andythenorth> only readable with var 42, not ideal :) 20:59:51 <Eddi|zuHause> (i feel we had this discussion already) 20:59:57 <frosch123> F2 is the persistent storage that is written when selecting a cargo subtype 21:00:36 <frosch123> i have never seen a convincing usecase for prop 25 21:01:32 <andythenorth> it's a weird prop 21:02:06 <andythenorth> anyway, I wanted to set prop 25 when flipping the vehicle, but nvm :) 21:12:03 *** sla_ro|master has quit IRC 21:31:15 *** Smedles has quit IRC 21:32:43 *** Smedles has joined #openttd 21:35:53 *** arikover has quit IRC 21:41:11 *** Smedles has quit IRC 21:42:28 *** Smedles has joined #openttd 22:01:42 *** HerzogDeXtEr has quit IRC 22:14:39 *** Wolf01 has quit IRC 22:20:57 *** nielsm has joined #openttd 22:23:54 *** andythenorth has left #openttd 22:29:38 *** Progman has quit IRC 22:30:01 <FLHerne> What exactly does nml STORE_TEMP() do [and what's the address range] ? 22:30:19 <FLHerne> (plan B as always is 'read the source', but might as well ask 22:30:21 <FLHerne> ) 22:31:44 *** supermop_work has quit IRC 22:33:38 <frosch123> you give it a register and a value 22:33:46 <frosch123> it stores the value in the register 22:33:54 <frosch123> you use that to pass values between switches 22:34:20 <frosch123> and to insert parameters into production callbacks and sprite layouts 22:34:55 <frosch123> address range is 0 to 127 iirc 22:35:23 <frosch123> the other half is used by nml to store temporary values in nested expressiosn 22:36:52 <frosch123> you can compare them to stack variables in other languages 22:37:09 <FLHerne> Oh, the "other half" bit was the thing I missed, I think 22:38:12 <frosch123> when you run nml it outputs some statistics at the end 22:38:29 <frosch123> one of those tells you how many temporary registers were used to generate expressions 22:39:57 <frosch123> https://github.com/glx22/nml/commit/065f92a1e553a042a1f7a4745c64f25929573b51 <- search for "sto 1A 20" 22:40:37 <glx> oh nice a free HL :) 22:40:39 <frosch123> they are used to store the results of (...) while evaluating the next (...) 22:41:01 <frosch123> "free" as in, you have nothing to do for it? :p 22:42:06 <glx> https://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Storages#Temporary_storage can help too 22:42:32 <FLHerne> Was just reading that 22:43:19 <FLHerne> Are they separate from the parameters that actionD reads/writes? 22:43:24 <frosch123> registers 100-10F are write-only registers for large callback results 22:43:44 <frosch123> yes, actiond is like "static const" 22:43:55 <frosch123> only done during initialisation and then constant 22:44:05 <glx> static but not always conts 22:44:08 <glx> *const 22:44:15 <frosch123> action2 registers are stack variables. only valid during callbacks, discarded after each callback 22:44:17 <FLHerne> I thought so, but "used by nml to store temporary values in nested expressions" sounds like the actionD chains that nml creates to do that 22:45:05 <glx> some nml action D could be done directly in action 2 22:45:49 <frosch123> yes, nml also needs actiond registers for "temporary" values, but technically they are "static" 22:46:41 <frosch123> ok, let's say actiond is like "consteval" 22:46:59 <glx> most of the time I see action D then action 6 for something that could be implemented in the varact2 22:47:07 <frosch123> so, actiond is preferred over action2 whenever possible, since it is only evaluated once 22:47:21 <frosch123> glx: that's optimisation 22:47:32 <glx> but I guess it's also easier to handle param access in only one way :) 22:51:26 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd 22:52:44 *** heffer has quit IRC 22:54:01 * andythenorth draws some pixels 22:54:11 <andythenorth> expended far too many silly words today :) 22:55:38 <FLHerne> andythenorth: "one grf per roster" sounds like a very good idea 22:55:57 <andythenorth> there is a logic to it 22:56:00 <FLHerne> andythenorth: If nothing else, because a surprisingly high proportion of players don't know about grf parameters 22:56:02 <andythenorth> causes some naming issues :P 22:57:06 *** heffer has joined #openttd 22:57:08 <andythenorth> wonder if I can compile multiple from one repo 22:57:13 <andythenorth> probably 23:00:11 *** supermop_work has joined #openttd 23:01:30 *** heffer has quit IRC 23:02:59 *** heffer has joined #openttd 23:28:04 <andythenorth> :o I could do cargo sensitive engine liveries 23:28:04 * andythenorth never thought of that 23:28:58 <andythenorth> silly andythenorth 23:29:19 *** Samu has quit IRC 23:31:11 <FLHerne> But why? 23:31:23 <FLHerne> Railfreight with appropriate sector badges? P 23:31:42 <FLHerne> Of course, you'd have to redraw everything in 4x zoom for anyone to notice 23:32:46 <FLHerne> Also, would the engine repaint itself when doing refit-at-station? 23:35:21 *** andythenorth is now known as Guest11061 23:35:21 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd 23:39:01 *** Guest11061 has quit IRC 23:45:24 *** snail_UES_ has joined #openttd 23:49:15 *** frosch123 has quit IRC 23:49:33 *** andythenorth has left #openttd