Log for #openttd on 7th December 2019:
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01:41:59  <FLHerne> $ find nml -type f -print0 | xargs -0 sed -i -E 's|(nmlop\.[A-Z_]*\([^()]*)expression\.ConstantNumeric\(([^(),]*), [A-Za-z0-9.]*pos\)||g'
01:42:19  <FLHerne> This is getting silly, I should sleep
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09:51:00  <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/website] TrueBrain commented on issue #112: Suggestion: Make author and date added always publicly visible on
09:51:00  <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/website] TrueBrain closed issue #112: Suggestion: Make author and date added always publicly visible on
09:52:11  <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/website] TrueBrain commented on issue #96: always shows "Login" instead of "Logout (account name)"
09:52:11  <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/website] TrueBrain closed issue #96: always shows "Login" instead of "Logout (account name)"
09:53:13  <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/website] TrueBrain commented on issue #61: Does the website have a multilingual plan?
09:53:13  <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/website] TrueBrain closed issue #61: Does the website have a multilingual plan?
09:55:04  <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/website] TrueBrain commented on issue #30: Validation issues
09:55:04  <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/website] TrueBrain closed issue #30: Validation issues
09:55:55  <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/website] TrueBrain commented on issue #25: Many hardcoded URLs
09:55:56  <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/website] TrueBrain closed issue #25: Many hardcoded URLs
09:56:42  <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/website] TrueBrain commented on pull request #80: General layout refactor
09:56:48  <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/website] TrueBrain commented on pull request #82: Discussion basis for rework of the general HTML structure and the CSS rules
09:56:57  <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/website] TrueBrain commented on pull request #84: Change: semantic HTML-elements for the pages main sections and corresponding CSS-rules
09:57:13  <TrueBrain> well, that cleans up the website repo
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10:56:37  <LordAro> TrueBrain: i still don't like closing issues that haven't been fixed just because "no one cares enough to fix them"
10:57:13  <LordAro> not sure what to do with those PRs though, they're all in various states of disuse
10:58:50  <TrueBrain> LordAro: I still don't like keeping things open nobody is going to do anything with :)
10:59:27  <LordAro> it's not like they're costing CPU time or disk space...
10:59:35  <TrueBrain> goes both ways :)
10:59:44  <TrueBrain> so these kind of arguments fall kinda flat ;)
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11:00:42  <TrueBrain> but what you experience, is the typical hoarder effect wel all carry
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11:00:58  <TrueBrain> keeping something for keeps, is not a good reason to keep :)
11:01:09  <TrueBrain> but somehow our human nature loves keeeeepping :D
11:03:04  <TrueBrain> anyway, LordAro, please do something with these PRs. Otherwise I will close them. This is not helping any other contributions. If I would walk by and see these PRs open in the state they are, I would keep on walking ;) I would like to prevent that if possible :)
11:03:43  <Samu> hi
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11:04:26  <TrueBrain> and don't get me wrong, I do appreciate you wanted to tackle the HTML of the website. But please either finish it, or let it go :)
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11:14:24  <LordAro> TrueBrain: i'm not sure "has (old) open PRs" would prevent many people from contributing if they wanted to
11:15:36  <TrueBrain> these kind of PRs will
11:17:06  <TrueBrain> as it goes, no action is worse than any action :)
11:18:14  <TrueBrain> (basically, if someone walks in now and things: why is this website not HTML5? And wants to fix it .. looks in the PRs .. see 3 attempts to do so .. see they are stale .. it needs a special kind of person to add a 4th variant to that :P It is just less likely)
11:18:21  <TrueBrain> s/things/thinks/
11:19:30  <LordAro> that's true
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11:20:46  <TrueBrain> and I would really love for you to finish the HTML5 conversion you picked up, but it is also okay if you say: I will focus on something else. But at least that makes it clear where it stands :) (and again, I mean this with the most positive amount of energy you can imagine :D)
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11:31:32  <andythenorth_> HELLO!
11:32:30  <andythenorth_> I AM SELLING CHRISTMAS TREES
11:37:03  <TrueBrain> I take 1 plz
11:37:07  <TrueBrain> Free delivery?
11:37:46  <andythenorth_> if you collect yes
11:38:01  * andythenorth_ has been up since 5.30am
11:38:13  <andythenorth_> 170 trees on a truck
11:39:05  <andythenorth_> responsible adulting
11:39:15  <andythenorth_> school charity
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12:01:54  <TrueBrain> "if you collect".. how is that a delivery?! Pfft :P
12:19:52  <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/nml] FLHerne opened pull request #70: Binop cleanup
12:20:17  <FLHerne> In case anyone wants to spend their Saturday reviewing a lot of very similar lines :P
12:27:59  <FLHerne> I did consider implementing __add__() for Expression
12:28:39  <FLHerne> But I think that might be confusing
12:29:29  <FLHerne> `BinOp(nmlop.ADD, foo, ConstantNumeric(foo.pos), foo.pos)`  <- before
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12:29:57  <FLHerne> *ConstantNumeric(0x42, foo.pos)
12:30:14  <FLHerne> `nmlop.ADD(foo, 0x42)`  <- with this
12:30:30  <FLHerne> `foo + 0x42`  <- possible, but ???
12:31:16  <FLHerne> Also, the `<<<` operators couldn't be represented in Python
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14:20:39  <andythenorth> well
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14:22:02  <FLHerne> andythenorth: Argh, you could have told me FIRS didn't do reproducible builds :P
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14:23:03  <FLHerne> I just spent half an hour trying to find out why my no-actual-changes patch was changing the output
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14:23:33  <FLHerne> But FIRS shuffles these `basic_oxygen_furnace_min_distance_7` things around all on its own
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14:24:12  <FLHerne> In hindsight, I have no idea why I was rerunning the whole compile and not just nmlc on firs.nml...
14:24:17  * FLHerne is an idiot, probably
14:27:07  <andythenorth> well
14:27:26  <andythenorth> which python version FLHerne ?
14:27:30  <FLHerne> 3.8
14:27:43  <andythenorth> hmm
14:27:46  <andythenorth> so it's not dicts then
14:28:15  * andythenorth wonders what yields in a non-deterministic way
14:29:19  <FLHerne>
14:30:38  <FLHerne> I don't suppose it really matters
14:31:44  <FLHerne> Determinism only matters if someone cares, and my only reason for caring was stupid :P
14:44:33  <peter1138> yay i finally got out on a weekend ride
14:48:39  <andythenorth> I sold some trees and went in a hot tub
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15:11:05  <LordAro> peter1138: yay!
15:11:16  <LordAro> i get to clean mine in preparation for tomorrow
15:11:27  <LordAro> it's quite brown right now
15:11:50  <andythenorth> your hot tub?
15:11:59  <andythenorth> or your tree?
15:13:07  <andythenorth> TrueBrain: so how about a new website then? o_O
15:13:20  <andythenorth> I did write a draft, but it got feedback, so it went nowhere :P
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15:39:15  <andythenorth> ouch IO on about 400 files takes about 9.8s
15:39:17  <andythenorth> 0.8s
15:39:27  <andythenorth> that's not ideal
15:40:43  <andythenorth> I only write them in case I need to debug the nml per vehicle :P
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16:02:42  <snail_UES_> anyone has ideas about this?
16:02:43  <snail_UES_>
16:03:06  <snail_UES_> I’m told the bug exists because colorful text in menus is an unintended feature of OTTD...
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16:06:29  <andythenorth> I doubt it was envisaged to be supported
16:06:30  <andythenorth> but eh
16:14:04  <frosch123> i thought that was fixed
16:14:05  <Eddi|zuHause> snail_UES_: my opinion is that this is a case which should be handled like discussed a few weeks ago, where i suggested the string drawing function gets a colour remap passed, so things like "draw all black as white" or "add shading for disabled" can be handled independent from the string colour codes
16:17:23  <frosch123> ah, the push/pop stuff was only addes for gs
16:18:09  <snail_UES_> frosch123: I see, so push/pop wouldn’t work in this case?
16:18:27  <frosch123> it's currently not available for newgrf apparently
16:18:52  <snail_UES_> got it
16:18:55  <frosch123> it is a recent addition, but i can't remember the original usecase
16:19:38  <snail_UES_> Eddi|zuHause: right, so this would require a new OTTD feature?
16:20:27  <frosch123> <- it says "for add-ons"
16:20:34  <Eddi|zuHause> snail_UES_: yes. ideally, your original string should Just Work(tm)
16:20:38  <frosch123> maybe the PR was just incomplete
16:20:49  * andythenorth wishes compiles were faster, I no longer notice the 20 seconds I saved last weekend :P
16:20:56  <andythenorth> just the 40 seconds that still exist :P
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16:21:50  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: you should add preemptive compiling
16:22:10  <andythenorth> what, I compile last weekend for results this weekend? o_O
16:22:20  <andythenorth> or I run a batch job every 41s?
16:22:30  <frosch123> it works if you keep reverting stuff
16:23:37  <andythenorth> I have quite a lot of ideas I try and then remove
16:23:41  <snail_UES_> alright, so I’ll just release my set as it is :)
16:23:44  <andythenorth> so I could just not bother testing those
16:23:49  <andythenorth> faster compiles :)
16:24:14  <snail_UES_> andythenorth: but do you have to recompile the entire set if you just change one small thing?
16:24:21  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: if you have qbits, you can nondeterministically compile all edits you're about to make, and once you finish your edit, the correct version was already compiled for you
16:24:34  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause I can rent time on someone's qbit cloud service
16:24:41  <snail_UES_> can’t you use distributed files, and only recompile the file you’re working on?
16:24:43  <andythenorth> might be microsoft, can't remember
16:24:46  <frosch123> snail_UES_: so, when was your discussion with peter? april 2018?
16:25:06  <andythenorth> snail_UES_: TL;DR no :)
16:25:24  <snail_UES_> frosch123: actually, I just read documentation. I sent this message to Peter about last week
16:25:38  <andythenorth> hmm, can I insert directly into a grf file?
16:25:38  <snail_UES_> but I made it public because I thought others might have had ideas as well
16:26:06  <frosch123> well, someone had the same problem in 2018. but it was only solved for gs or possibly ottd itself
16:26:27  <snail_UES_> I see, with the introduction of PUSH and POP?
16:26:40  <frosch123> yes
16:27:22  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: in my quick search, i found code that translates PUSH/POP for newgrf strings. why does that not work?
16:28:10  <frosch123> snail_UES_: actually, it was added for newgerf
16:28:14  <Eddi|zuHause> "case 0x1F: d += Utf8Encode(d, SCC_PUSH_COLOUR); break;"
16:28:38  <snail_UES_> ok… so perhaps my syntax is wrong?
16:28:56  <frosch123> snail_UES_: <- 9A 1F and 9A 20
16:29:48  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: because that was in a different PR, from april 2019
16:30:05  <frosch123> so, the original feature was from april 2018, and newgrf support was added in april 2019
16:30:15  <Eddi|zuHause> right
16:30:37  <snail_UES_> alright, so which version of ottd should I use?
16:30:40  <Eddi|zuHause> so, the next question would be, which version is snail_UES_ using?
16:30:46  <snail_UES_> I’m using 1.9.1 which maybe is too early...
16:31:02  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, 1.9 won't work when the docs say 1.10
16:31:04  <frosch123> wiki says 1.10
16:31:16  <Eddi|zuHause> 1.10 means current nightly
16:31:24  <snail_UES_> ok. Time for me to upgrade :p
16:31:25  <frosch123> there is  a beta1
16:31:49  <Eddi|zuHause> beta1 should also work
16:32:41  <snail_UES_> 1.10.0-beta1 released on 2019/10/30
16:33:13  <Eddi|zuHause> that should be fine
16:33:31  <Eddi|zuHause> if the feature was included in nightlies in april, then october version should have it :p
16:34:46  <snail_UES_> I’ll try something like thus
16:34:48  <snail_UES_> *this
16:34:48  <snail_UES_>
16:34:51  <snail_UES_> sorry
16:34:59  <snail_UES_> "Metric gauge line construction (axle weight: " T_PUSH T_ORANGE "11t" T_POP ")",
16:36:12  <glx> should work I think
16:36:43  <snail_UES_> works!! thanks, guys :)
16:37:03  <snail_UES_> I’ll add a post to my thread to specify which version needs to be used
16:37:21  <Eddi|zuHause> snail_UES_: but i agree with planetmaker, that the colours are a bit much
16:37:29  <glx> there used to be a way to check the version in the grf
16:37:35  <snail_UES_> I’ll have another look into that
16:37:50  <glx> but I think it doesn't work since the move to github
16:37:54  <snail_UES_> maybe the tones of grey are not easily readable on the grey background
16:38:28  <frosch123> glx: it does work, but what would the grf do instead?
16:40:16  <Eddi|zuHause> snail_UES_: yes, grey and this faded yellow are not great colours there. also that the colours are all over the place is not good. it would be better if the colours were aligned somehow
16:41:11  <snail_UES_> hmm
16:41:15  <Eddi|zuHause> i have no idea how alingment could be achieved, though
16:41:49  <snail_UES_> true, but the text is longer for certain railtypes
16:41:58  <snail_UES_> it could be:
16:42:39  <snail_UES_> “Light/Standard/Heavy” metric gauge construction (axle weight: XX t, power source: Catenary/ThirdRail) (max speed: XX km/h)
16:42:53  <snail_UES_> maybe something like this would look better
16:43:27  <Eddi|zuHause> snail_UES_: you won't be able to affect this from newgrf, but ideally all the (XX km/h) should be aligned, and the (weight: YY t) as well
16:43:45  <snail_UES_> I agree, but that’s not easily achieved
16:44:09  <snail_UES_> also, different languages construct the same phrase differently, moving words around
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16:48:39  <andythenorth> hmm
16:48:47  * andythenorth adding features that will almost never be used :P
16:48:48  <andythenorth> GG
17:00:29  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: that's about every feature ever.
17:00:59  <andythenorth> this one is marginal than that
17:01:05  <andythenorth> I'll never use it, in most cases :P
17:02:31  <Eddi|zuHause> ok, that's the death of a feature. if ANDY doesn't use it, nobody will. ever.
17:02:38  <peter1138> Hmm, is 3.6 GHz a good CPU speed for an OpenTTD server...?
17:03:11  <andythenorth> bit slow
17:03:23  <peter1138> Quad-core Xeon will be better than the Dual-core Celeron it replaced though, right?
17:03:30  <andythenorth> 4x better
17:03:47  <andythenorth> 2 x 2
17:03:48  <peter1138> :p
17:04:03  <andythenorth> are you shopping?
17:04:20  <peter1138> Already shopped.
17:05:10  <glx> remember OTTD mostly use only 1 core anyway
17:06:05  <andythenorth> well you can autosave 4x faster now :P
17:06:45  <peter1138> glx, 2.4 -> 3.6, and of course more cache.
17:07:07  <peter1138> Of course, I don't play OpenTTD, so it's irrelevant ;)
17:07:09  <glx> yeah and xeon is better than celeron too
17:08:43  <andythenorth> is minecraft MP aware? :P
17:08:54  <glx> andythenorth: maybe something useful for you
17:09:11  <andythenorth> :o
17:10:15  <glx> macros so you can reduce copy/paste
17:11:30  <snail_UES_> thx for your feedback, I simplified my text coloring schema. I felt that red-brown and grey-green were especially tough to read
17:21:33  <snail_UES_> btw, doesn’t ottd 1.10.0 include NRT?
17:21:42  <glx> yes
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17:35:00  <snail_UES_> alright… when I click on “build roads”, it only gives me one type though. I guess it’s because I haven’t got any new road GRFs installed, right?
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17:38:47  <Eddi|zuHause> correct
17:38:54  <Eddi|zuHause> without NewGRFs, NRT does nothing
17:41:59  <snail_UES_> I just downloaded RattRoads, it looks nice :)
17:43:52  <andythenorth> I should fix the global toolbar icon for NRT
17:43:59  <andythenorth> that dude in forums drew a new one
17:44:18  <andythenorth> but I don't know if I'm allowed to use it, because we broke airplane crashes or something
17:45:16  <Eddi|zuHause> ??
17:45:28  <frosch123> oh, andy will update opengfx?
17:45:46  <Eddi|zuHause> i should just ignore any sentence of andy which contains variants of the word "broken"
17:46:33  <frosch123> anyway, supermop or supercheese also drew some nrt icons in ogfx style some years ago
17:46:39  <frosch123> they are probably somewhere
17:46:44  <andythenorth>
17:46:52  <andythenorth> we've broken savegames or something
17:46:55  * andythenorth doesn't follow 
17:47:17  <andythenorth> should chemicals tank cars refit to sulphur?
17:47:19  <andythenorth> important questions
17:47:55  <andythenorth> hmm, but I can't be bothered to repaint them :)
17:48:41  <nielsm> andythenorth: we're breaking savegames that depend on large airplanes being able to land on short runways
17:48:49  <nielsm> is what the complaint is about
17:48:55  <andythenorth> oh dear
17:49:07  <andythenorth> what was the warranty again?
17:49:09  * andythenorth looks
17:49:26  <frosch123> was the cheat removed?
17:49:42  <andythenorth> not afaik
17:49:52  <andythenorth> what does the cheat mean though?
17:49:58  <andythenorth> it adjusts the probability?
17:50:08  <frosch123> the cheat made all short runways act like long
17:50:22  <andythenorth> but it still has a random chance of crash?
17:50:32  <frosch123> usual man thoughts
17:50:57  <andythenorth> weird setting is weird eh
17:51:05  <andythenorth> plane crashes: None
17:51:09  <andythenorth> except they will
17:51:17  <andythenorth> software is hard :P
17:51:31  <andythenorth> so neither setting nor cheat prevent crashes?
17:51:54  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: haven't we changed that to "None*"?
17:52:01  <frosch123> ah, i'll file it under, noone is willing to read up on it
17:52:07  <nielsm> it's arbitrary plane crashes that happen for no reason at all (i.e. disasters) that are disabled by that setting
17:52:32  <andythenorth> it's all clear as mud :)
17:53:09  <andythenorth> anyway, that NRT tram track building sprite is improved imho
17:53:24  <andythenorth> I was an idiot when I drew the original
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18:23:47  <snail_UES_> andythenorth: my tank wagons are refittable to sulphur
18:23:58  <andythenorth> what about your chemicals tankers? :)
18:24:12  <snail_UES_> I only have one kind of tank wagons :p
18:24:19  <snail_UES_> small NG trains, remember?...
18:24:47  <snail_UES_> maybe you can do an in-game recoloring if you don’t want to draw new graphics altogether?
18:25:15  <andythenorth> it's more of a design issue :)
18:25:26  <andythenorth> I designed them to be shiny with 1CC area
18:25:38  <andythenorth> sulphur is yellow, but there's no space to paint a yellow section
18:25:56  <andythenorth> normal tank cars I already did this though :)
18:29:12  <snail_UES_> hmm
18:29:42  <snail_UES_> yeah, I repaint my tankers in yellow when I load them with sulphur
18:30:36  <snail_UES_> same as edible oil :p and acid can also randomly be like that
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18:45:50  <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] DorpsGek pushed 1 commits to master
18:45:50  <DorpsGek_III_>   - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
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18:55:27  <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] grossws commented on pull request #7851: Change: add support for next/previous railtype global hotkeys
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19:54:56  <andythenorth> glx do the macros have any effect on compile time? o_O
19:55:15  <andythenorth> i.e. are they templating the input, or the output?
20:05:30  <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/nml] FLHerne left a comment on commit: Add: nmlc option to force regeneration of parser tables
20:08:35  <glx> it's for the input
20:08:54  <glx> they are replaced at compile
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20:15:22  <andythenorth> ok so compile time is ~constant
20:15:45  * andythenorth wonders about templating the final output :P
20:15:48  <andythenorth> ignore that silly idea
20:16:05  <andythenorth> stored procedures is approximately same result
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20:27:51  <FLHerne> andythenorth: A sizeable chunk of your compile time is template writing and then parsing?
20:28:23  <FLHerne> Shrinking the nml file size/complexity with macros should help both of those
20:28:36  <andythenorth> only if it aids parsing
20:29:29  <andythenorth> I could test it and get empirical results
20:29:53  <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/nml] glx22 opened pull request #71: Add: nmlc option to force regeneration of parser tables
20:31:08  <FLHerne> Hm, it only supports expressions, not statements, so probably wouldn't help much
20:31:30  <andythenorth> it will help authors who can't use a template language
20:32:12  <glx> it can support more I think
20:33:19  <glx> but what I wrote is mainly for assignement
20:34:04  <glx> for things like :)
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20:34:25  <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/nml] FLHerne commented on pull request #71: Add: nmlc option to force regeneration of parser tables
20:36:09  <andythenorth> to macro that giant expression
20:36:11  <andythenorth> ?
20:38:27  <glx> and similar expressions yes, the 3 childsprites starting at the linked line use almost the same formula
20:38:41  <glx> very good candidate for a macro
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20:42:08  <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/nml] glx22 updated pull request #71: Add: nmlc option to force regeneration of parser tables
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21:30:29  <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/website] auge8472 commented on pull request #82: Discussion basis for rework of the general HTML structure and the CSS rules
21:30:32  <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/website] auge8472 closed pull request #82: Discussion basis for rework of the general HTML structure and the CSS rules
21:41:52  <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/nml] LordAro approved pull request #67: Minor changes in regression Makefile and .gitignore
21:42:19  <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/nml] LordAro approved pull request #64: Fix: enable VT100 sequences on windows
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