Log for #openttd on 15th December 2019:
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09:56:45  <Wolf01> Eddi|zuHause: TF2, is the cargo filter broken? If I set a train to load "wood" at a sawmill it won't load anything, if I don't set the filter it works well
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10:36:30  <peter1138> Why would Team Fortress 2 have a cargo filter?
10:37:22  <Wolf01> Why not?
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10:42:29  <Samu> hi
10:42:42  <Wolf01> Btw, it's a bit like locomotion now, replace vehicle works when running, not in depot, you set the maintenance cost (normal|high|very high) and it just keeps your vehicles in "good" shape, you can't set when to replace a vehicle with a new model, you have wrong traffic side for train signals and it don't seem to be changed
10:46:03  <Wolf01> Cloning vehicles is a pita. They always appear in the wrong depot
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10:47:40  <SpComb> I've only had a chance to test out the first Campaigns so far, planning on playing more today
10:47:49  <nielsm> yeah destination depot for cloning is really bad
10:48:14  <nielsm> the campaigns are more like puzzles than challenges, at least the first part
10:48:25  <Wolf01> Yup
10:48:26  <SpComb> the combined pax/cargo stations with separate icons rrally tripped me up badly
10:49:02  <SpComb> I can't imagine very many players would be able to figure it out immediately
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10:54:51  <Wolf01> The date speed is nice, too bad it's limited to 1/4, I liked the 1/8 of TF1 mod, but you can totally pause the date
10:55:01  <Wolf01> You can play 1860 forever
10:55:30  <SpComb> whyyy would you do that
10:56:17  <Wolf01> I wouldn't, I'll paly 1920 forever :>
10:56:20  <Wolf01> *play
10:56:23  <SpComb> I was greatly amused by the orange plastic traffic cones around the 1850 industry mine pits / factory buildings
10:56:29  <SpComb> safety first
10:56:48  <Wolf01> Ahahah, really
10:57:18  <SpComb> yeah, they also have electric outside lighting and HVAC system vents :P
10:57:32  <Wolf01> Also the mines which seem a rollercoaster...
10:59:08  <nielsm> what I miss in TF2 as much as in TF1 are industries changing over time
10:59:27  <Wolf01> Oh, they won't?
10:59:33  <nielsm> why are there plastic industries in 1850
10:59:44  <nielsm> industries never close and new ones never open
11:00:00  <nielsm> and industry production levels are entirely deterministic on your performance
11:01:00  <Wolf01> Time to ruin my performance by building a cargo hub
11:02:25  <Wolf01> I hate not being able to rotate with a finer angle to align to existing roads...
11:02:39  <Wolf01> At least on TF1 it self aligned when placed near a road
11:02:53  <nielsm> shift+N/M do finer rotation
11:03:12  <nielsm> but I keep hitting B (bulldoze) when I reach for N/M blindly
11:03:15  <Wolf01> Hmmm, I even tried it
11:03:29  <nielsm> and pressing B again does not return to the tool you were using before, just to no tool
11:05:49  <nielsm> pondering whether to stream some?
11:09:32  <SpComb> I remapped N/M to Q/E right away
11:10:21  <nielsm> that's a good idea
11:10:22  <SpComb> also remapped the number hotkeys for construction to include things like railway signals, which is probably the most common thing you need...
11:11:11  <SpComb> the tilt/rotation controls are also inverted by default...
11:12:01  <SpComb> I would have wanted to return the game for a refund if it didn't have an option to re-invert those back to their correct behavior :P
11:12:07  <nielsm> yeah took me 3 tries to get the rotation and tilt to make sense
11:12:30  <nielsm> and very annoying they can only be changed from the main menu, not in game
11:12:36  <SpComb> yeah, and toggling them is a full game restart...
11:12:58  <SpComb> I left pan/zoom at the default and toggled tilt/rotate
11:20:49  <nielsm>
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11:55:11  <Wolf01> Is it me or it's really easier to earn money compared to TF1?
11:55:52  <Wolf01> All seem to work out of the box here
11:56:51  <SpComb> pax or cargo? The industry supply/prodction economy should have been simplified
11:57:28  <Wolf01> Both
11:58:08  <SpComb> haven't gotten that far yet
11:59:08  <Wolf01> I have a double line between 2 cities with pax and cargo, in one city I deliver tools and the other food, so they exchange... and even with little amounts of cargo the trains are profitable
11:59:36  <SpComb> what about when they age
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12:02:57  <Wolf01> It's nice how they can fit a house in the smallest space you left between a road and a station...
12:04:26  <nielsm> that's something cities:skylines has received a lot of critique about yeah
12:04:41  <nielsm> how house sizes are inflexible
12:05:06  <SpComb> strict zoning regulations
12:06:22  <SpComb> how well do multiple overlapping passenger routes work? In TF1 I've always avoided setting up more than one route between two stations, because passengers seem to always want to prefer one and the other one runs empty
12:07:08  <nielsm> not sure yet
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12:45:15  <milek7_> these trains reverse without being push-pull? ;P
12:45:47  <SpComb> gameplay magic
12:45:48  <Wolf01> I'll tell when I'll connect to the next city, but for sure 3 points routes works fine (wood->planks->factory)
12:46:25  <frosch123> it took me some time to learn that you can put engines at the end of trains in factorio
12:46:41  <Wolf01> Ha :D
12:48:36  <Wolf01> Hmm, I don't know if it's better to separate the farms and the food routes, and put a hub to get all the grain from all the nearest farms before bringing it to the food industry
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13:30:39  <andythenorth> yo
13:31:20  <Wolf01> o/
13:34:03  <frosch123> <- funny function, isn't it?
13:35:38  <frosch123> no idea what to do with it
13:35:46  <frosch123> it makes no sense when using newgrf railtypes
13:36:08  <frosch123> yet if i remove it, some non-newgrf players will complain that the "select latest railtype in gui" setting does no longer work
13:37:48  <andythenorth> is it worth removing?
13:38:21  <frosch123> i am quite sure i used that setting as well when playing
13:38:48  <frosch123> when you load a savegame you forget to select the railtype that you always use
13:39:19  <frosch123> iirc there is also a setting "select most used railtype", but unless you upgrade everything that may be wrong as well
13:42:47  <frosch123> ah, tracktype have a sorting order property
13:42:50  <frosch123> so it should use that one
13:43:18  <frosch123> easy fix then
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14:12:51  <peter1138> frosch123, you'd think. That's buggy, and I didn't bother unbugging it ;)
14:13:10  <peter1138> In fact, I don't think I ever mentioned or documented that, heh.
14:13:24  <peter1138> (It broke with the 16 to 64 upgrade)
14:16:17  <frosch123> huh? it never worked with non-default railtypes. the 64 upgrade does not matter, does it?
14:21:05  <peter1138> I mean the sorting order property.
14:26:53  <frosch123> ah, the default value thingie
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14:32:55  <nielsm> argh I keep building the wrong wagon types especially when replacing trains...
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15:57:50  <andythenorth> oh
15:58:04  <andythenorth> depot drag only drags the first 2 units of an articulated vehicle?
15:58:08  <andythenorth> that's lolz
15:58:22  * andythenorth doesn't normally have more than 2 units
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16:11:58  <andythenorth>
16:15:48  <frosch123> no, it draws N pixels
16:16:01  <frosch123> there is no limit on the number of vehicle parts
16:16:09  <frosch123> but it won't draw the mouse cursor over half the screen
16:17:21  <andythenorth> agreed :)
16:17:38  <andythenorth> that would be silly
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16:18:30  <andythenorth> I was just surprised, a 2 unit 12/8 vehicle is drawn 100%, but a 3 unit 12/8 vehicle only draws the first 2 units
16:18:38  <frosch123> ah, looks like N is 16/8 vehicle length :)
16:19:26  <andythenorth> I could make a video, but eh it's overkill, just checking I didn't write a broken grf
16:19:45  <frosch123> i thought it would truncate the sprite, but apparently it draws whole articulated parts
16:20:03  <andythenorth> I doubt anyone will notice except people like me
16:20:13  * andythenorth about to test
16:21:37  <andythenorth> @seen glx
16:21:37  <DorpsGek> andythenorth: glx was last seen in #openttd 17 hours, 14 minutes, and 8 seconds ago: <glx> it is still windy here
16:30:57  <andythenorth> hmm, not sure how to use that yet
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16:33:44  <andythenorth> can't see anything that makes a switch a procedure
16:34:43  <frosch123> there is an example
16:35:15  <frosch123> if your switch is named "foobar", just use "foobar()" in some expression
16:35:33  <frosch123> and it will use the result of the switch, or whatever temp storage you modify
16:42:58  <andythenorth> I was looking at
16:43:01  <andythenorth> oh I missed the ()
16:44:19  <FLHerne>
16:44:35  <FLHerne> Needs middle-of-road tramways :P
16:45:57  <andythenorth> bizarrely reminds me of
16:49:12  <andythenorth> FLHerne: tell me about your bus needs
16:49:24  <andythenorth> couple of people mention that Hog isn't enough bus variety
16:50:14  <FLHerne> andythenorth: I said before, my bus needs from Hog are "let me turn the buses off", because Bob's British Buses has plenty ;-)
16:50:24  <FLHerne> I can hide them manually, of course
16:50:37  <andythenorth> I'm possibly open to parameter
16:50:59  <andythenorth> I'll ask Jake what he's missing from Hog bus
16:51:06  <FLHerne> That being the case, I can't really tell you what's wrong with them except that I'm not a fan of the art style
16:51:35  <andythenorth> yup ok
16:51:37  <FLHerne> EGRVTS has parameters by vehicle category, which is what I was using before Hog
16:51:59  <FLHerne> (I'm not really sure why I'm using Hog now, curiosity?)
16:52:36  <andythenorth> I'm not very satisfied with Hog
16:52:41  <andythenorth> it was ok in a pre-NRTworld
16:53:12  <andythenorth> also the sprites are poor, with hindsight
16:53:46  <andythenorth> I have nearly learnt to draw now
16:56:38  <FLHerne> Unrelated Hog thing, why do I only seem to have steam lorries in 1936?
16:57:04  <FLHerne> I think the Hog buses are very TTD-ish?
16:57:52  <FLHerne> Which is nice in a generally vanilla game, but doesn't fit well with the lots-of-tiny-details style used by many grfs
16:58:06  <FLHerne> (ISTR saying the same thing about Horse)
16:58:24  <FLHerne>'s fine, just not what I want
16:58:29  <andythenorth> it does seem to be only steam trucks in 1936
16:58:38  <andythenorth> I think I went on an alt-history bender
16:59:10  <andythenorth> steam trucks were extant for a longtime (although not majority)
17:00:08  <andythenorth> wow no diesel trucks until 1945 :D
17:00:23  <andythenorth> that's opinionated
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17:05:20  * andythenorth wonders who makes this stuff 
17:16:23  <frosch123> maybe pikka convinced you that 5 vehicles is enough
17:16:38  <frosch123> so there was no room for early diesel
17:22:37  <peter1138> We let you create thousands, because a hundred wasn't enough...
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17:45:19  <andythenorth> imagine the compile time with thousands :P
17:46:18  <andythenorth> Horse does have 408 trains though
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19:41:37  * andythenorth wonders what vars are safe inside a stored procedure
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19:41:54  <andythenorth> e.g. if I try to access vehicle random bits, will that work?
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19:43:19  <frosch123> it's the same as every other switch
19:45:08  <andythenorth> thanks
20:03:36  <andythenorth> I'm missing something
20:03:49  <andythenorth> what's different between using a stored procedure, and just having a global switch?
20:04:00  <andythenorth> obvs. there is a difference, but what?
20:04:38  <frosch123> with a global switch you can do: (vehicle specific) -> (global) -> result
20:04:57  <frosch123> with a procedure you can do: (vehicle speicifc) -> (global) -> (vehicle specific) -> result
20:05:27  <frosch123> i.e. from a global switch you cannot continue with vehicle specific code
20:05:29  <andythenorth> because the vehicle can determine what to do withe procedure result
20:05:30  <andythenorth> ok
20:05:39  <frosch123> well, unless you add a switch to distinguish by vehicle id again, but well...
20:05:40  <andythenorth> withe is a word? :P
20:06:09  <frosch123> WHIT!!!
20:06:51  <andythenorth> lol I am banned on coop pastebin :)
20:06:53  <andythenorth> "Your IP address is listed as a malicious IP."
20:06:55  <andythenorth> oh well
20:07:39  <andythenorth> there are > 1400 switches like this, I am thinking there might be a better way
20:08:02  <andythenorth> seems like a stored procedure, returning 0 or 1
20:08:22  <frosch123> what are they used for?
20:08:32  <andythenorth> vehicle changes speed with certain engine IDs
20:09:06  <andythenorth> cb36 result
20:09:28  <frosch123> yes, but why? :p
20:09:39  <frosch123> one engine checking for another?
20:09:42  <andythenorth> BAD FEATURE
20:09:43  <frosch123> or engine checking for wagons?
20:09:51  <andythenorth> engine checks for another
20:09:51  <frosch123> why are there so many valid combinations?
20:10:08  <andythenorth> any express engine is valid
20:10:14  <frosch123> is the speed limit not the minimum of both speed limits?
20:10:15  <andythenorth> I could do it with those weird user bits?
20:10:31  <andythenorth> no those user bits are too weird
20:10:33  <frosch123> maximum? sum? :p
20:11:04  <nielsm> oh yeah, a random thought I had in the shower today and just recalled: penalty weight for certain vehicles carrying certain cargo types, e.g. if you load oil on a container flatcar, the car would gain an additional few tons of dead weight from the oil tank in container format
20:11:30  <andythenorth> it's max(engine speed, generation-specific express engine speed)
20:11:45  <andythenorth> if no valid express engine is attached, it's just engine speed
20:12:12  <andythenorth> it's a really stupid feature, I'm not going to try and rationalise it
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20:14:09  <frosch123> i guess user bits may be the right solution :p
20:14:47  <andythenorth> they have a use? :P
20:14:54  <frosch123> express engine sets user value 0x80. the other engines checks whether anyone did set 0x80
20:15:05  <frosch123> iirc they were invented to check for salon vans
20:15:19  <andythenorth> they seem so likely to go wrong :P
20:15:31  <andythenorth> do they predate engine pool by any chance?
20:15:42  <frosch123> yes, they fail if you mix newgrfs that both want to use them
20:16:02  <andythenorth> no really :)
20:16:16  <andythenorth> is there a fake shock emoticon?
20:16:18  <frosch123> just 8 bits, no 4-byte labels for user properties :p
20:16:37  <frosch123> always use the cookie emoji
20:16:39  <andythenorth> I am going to try this as a stored procedure, I was looking for an excuse
20:16:45  <frosch123> you can eat it at least
20:17:12  <frosch123> i see no usecase for stored procedure
20:17:16  <frosch123> in this example
20:17:31  <andythenorth> could just be a global switch?
20:17:40  <frosch123> if you want less switches, you can replace them all with a single switch with count(a)+count(b)+..+
20:17:47  <andythenorth> the required speed varies by engine
20:17:50  <frosch123> count(z) > 0
20:18:19  <frosch123> you can also STORE_TEMP the two results in advance
20:18:23  <andythenorth> if I do count(a)+count(b) doesn't nml expand all that to some horror?
20:18:33  <frosch123> but ok, you can also use a procedure for that
20:19:02  <andythenorth> so this could just be a global switch with 2 registers
20:19:04  <frosch123> i don't recall a limit on the terms in a sum
20:19:39  <andythenorth> oof, wonder why I did this for purchase speed, let's not look too closely "${int(1.60934 * consist.speed)}"
20:19:43  <andythenorth> can't be wise
20:20:15  <andythenorth> apparently works
20:23:04  <frosch123> in callbacks you have to do your own mph->kmh conversion, while nml can do it in properties
20:23:39  <andythenorth> 🍪
20:23:48  <frosch123> :)
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21:23:08  <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/nml] andythenorth commented on pull request #66: Add: allow use of switches and random switches as procedures
21:23:21  <andythenorth> oh glx is here now :)
21:25:07  * andythenorth wonders why the stored procedure compiles 9 seconds faster, must just be local variation
21:26:09  <andythenorth> unless nml store temp is really expensive
21:28:04  <glx> using constant is faster than LOAD_TEMP()
21:28:27  <andythenorth> in compile?  No expansion of advanced varact2?
21:28:30  <glx> IIRC LOAD_TEMP() is done via action D
21:28:47  <glx> then action 6
21:28:59  <andythenorth> stored procedure consistently compiles faster than the STORE_TEMP alternative
21:29:16  <andythenorth> it's only a couple of seconds when comparing worst and best times
21:29:21  <andythenorth> and 9s for best and worst times
21:29:56  <andythenorth> so how close to done is PR 66? :)
21:30:24  <glx> it's probably ok, I should undraft it :)
21:30:52  <andythenorth> I don't mind testing in a branch, but I don't want to go too far from master :P
21:31:18  <glx> btw compare the NFO, you'll see why compile takes more time when not using constants
21:31:29  <andythenorth> I can imagine
21:31:44  <andythenorth> I used to write all the advanced varact2 by hand for registers
21:32:48  <glx> IIRC load_temp is compiled as an action D and action 6, so it reads the value then overwrite a placeholder in the varact2
21:34:42  <andythenorth> that's...baroque :)
21:35:46  <andythenorth> Iron Horse nfo with stored procedure is only 3000 bytes smaller :)
21:35:58  <andythenorth> on 18.4MB file :)
21:36:03  <andythenorth> but eh
21:36:10  <andythenorth> 'every little helps'
21:36:28  <glx> yeah, not a big improvement
21:37:12  <andythenorth> there will be bigger improvements
21:37:17  <andythenorth> I picked an easy case to start
21:42:16  <andythenorth> there are 1700 switches dealing just with sticking a red pixel on the last vehicle of the train
21:42:57  <andythenorth> those can't trivially be global-with-register, so stored procedure might help
21:44:17  <andythenorth> hmmm why do I call them 'stored procedures' they're just 'procedures'
21:44:23  <andythenorth> blame years-ago mySQL
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22:23:36  <FLHerne> Why is 'snow%' not documented in ?
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