Log for #openttd on 21st December 2019:
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02:34:39  <floodious> my floodfill insanity works... almost:
02:35:02  <floodious> although the lake is filled incorrectly and those tiles are most definitely not set to river
02:39:30  <floodious> it seems to me a "tile" is in fact "vertex"
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03:50:35  <Pikka> floodious, yep, a tile coord often means the northern corner vertex for landscape operations. So you have to go one more tile in the +x and +y directions to get an area.
03:59:59  <floodious> for what i'm attempting i can probably get away with verifying the target tile is flat, but the weird result i got shows there is something else strange going on... i'm switching my code to use c-style callbacks now which should simplify it a ton
04:00:23  <floodious> typical debugging though, only too predictable "after the first 90%, comes the second 90%"
04:06:58  <floodious> it was just my insane bitset functions apparently, replaced with callbacks, floodfill works perfectly:
04:07:19  <floodious> can now "flood" lakes up to N depth in low areas
04:07:57  <floodious> total invested effort so far: 4 hours research, about 2 hours fiddling with writing code and testing
04:09:10  <floodious> since callbacks are used it's possible to apply this in a generic way, the means to "match" to a target during fill isn't limited to height, it could be anything like testing inside a city block or similar, and the application need not be "set river", it could be anything like planting a tree
04:13:01  <floodious> seems to work though
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04:16:47  <floodious> that's so insanely cool that yesterday i got mad trying to manually do this on a 4096x4096 heightmap lol
04:17:04  <floodious> watching it work in 4.1 ms now is like... ugh
04:18:25  <floodious> bug = fails on contact with map edge
04:18:43  <floodious> i thought so but weirdly enough it does work sometimes, probably an off-by-one error in the range limiting
04:22:41  <floodious> like test(tile) { return distance(tile, city center) < radius; }, and apply(tile) { if (is_empty_land(tile)) { plant_trees(tile); } } = fill circle around city with trees
04:32:57  <floodious> since it includes running state data, it could be made to flow downhill and mark sloped edges for overflow at high current and stuff... so could function as a more complex water-flow simulation (although i'm not sure if the flood-fill algorithm is compatible as-is with recursive loops)
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04:34:41  <floodious> or "growing" a forest based upon simulated water table flow
04:36:43  <floodious> auto-erosion, ... lots of ideas
04:39:20  <Pikka> it's fun once you get into it ;)
04:40:34  <floodious> i think a few of these sorts of tools in the scenario editor would vastly improve the quality of scenarios... since just this flood-fill thing cut like 1/2 of the effort i'd need to invest
04:43:16  <Pikka> I've never liked the generated rivers... I usually have them turned off and forget they exist. But I can see them being useful for high lakes in scenarios.
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04:44:35  <floodious> lakes are essential if you want to do something like reproduce the forestry of the west coast or similar... need lakes + rivers, log barges for rivers, lakes and oceans
04:45:33  <floodious> as fun as model trains may be, they didn't exist really until the mid 1800s, and it was always totally impractical to move tens of thousands of tons of logs from mountainside to mill via something like rail with little putter-putter engines
04:46:22  <floodious> i think around here the remnants of wooden log train trestles and such were only used to move people, fuel and supplies
04:47:04  <floodious> you can still walk around in the woods on mountainsides and come upon lumps in the ground from the sleeprs
04:47:49  <floodious> huge trenches dug by steam shovels during 1820s and such :)
04:49:07  <floodious>
04:49:33  <floodious> the way stuff used to work back then is super cool, wooden hand-carved rails made by guys with axes and saws
04:49:48  <Pikka> it is
04:49:55  <Pikka> but eh
04:52:59  <Pikka> afaic openttd is a train game, and a road traffic game, and a plane game, and a heavy industry game... I'm not sure it's possible to make it interesting (and 'realistic') pre 20th century. But that's just me and my bad opinions ;)
04:53:45  <floodious> it's certainly possible to approximate it, but the limited scale makes proper scaling pretty close to impossible
04:54:24  <floodious> i think my centuries were off, 1920s not 1820s
04:54:41  <floodious> 1820s would've been a bunch of chinese guys shoving stuff by hand and pushing wooden carts
04:54:48  <Pikka> yep
04:54:50  <floodious> shoveling :)
04:55:37  <floodious> lots of little "Nth creek chinese coal mine" type stuff around here, little openings from the 1800s four feet tall
05:11:36  <floodious> capturing the map image seems a bit too difficult for 4k maps,
05:11:51  <floodious> that's the heightmap at 1k
05:12:24  <floodious> the inlet from the lower left and the straight in the upper right are ocean, everything else is lake
05:13:55  <floodious> realistically it would need about 12k, and max height near 200 (i think)
05:14:34  <floodious> the white peak is 1820 meters
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05:14:46  <floodious> 6000 ft
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05:23:15  <floodious>
05:23:37  <floodious> that's the head of the inlet, the first lake visible on the left
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06:21:47  <Pikka> nice
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06:36:16  <andythenorth> moin
06:36:23  <andythenorth> lo bob and all
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06:58:28  <floodious> hola senor
07:17:19  <Pikka> boin
07:17:50  <andythenorth> poiu
07:18:02  <andythenorth> well I have crashed nmlc
07:18:06  <andythenorth> hard
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07:20:05  <Pikka> o/
07:24:22  <andythenorth> oof varact 2 can only check 255 ranges?
07:25:06  <andythenorth> only a byte :(
07:25:33  <Pikka> "only"
07:27:10  <andythenorth> I was stuffing everything into one giant varact 2 by combining the results of procedures
07:27:13  <andythenorth> :(
07:27:21  <andythenorth> cargos * loaded_states etc
07:28:18  <Pikka> such efficiency
07:28:30  <andythenorth> apparently not :P
07:28:37  <floodious> stufficiency, stuff it all in there
07:28:51  <floodious> no need for breathing room
07:30:59  <andythenorth> oof
07:31:05  * andythenorth changes plan :|
07:33:47  <andythenorth> maybe we could have a dword for ranges :P
07:35:29  <floodious> there can be a surprising impact on cache and such between bytes and larger words packed into structures
07:36:08  <floodious> like ^2 or worse, so 1 byte = 1 time, 2 = 4, 3 = 8, 4 = 16
07:37:49  <floodious> would be interesting to profile such changes though to see if 32-bit words as default would be significant
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08:05:54  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] andythenorth opened issue #76: nfo output is slow with pypy
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08:43:15  <andythenorth> supermop_work: _still_ doesn't date
08:43:53  <andythenorth> 42 years :P
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08:59:16  <Wolf01> Hmmm, I need road stations with platforms for different directions, not really perpendicular, but double war ro-ro would be good enough
08:59:41  * andythenorth wonders about class vars for newgrf vehicles
08:59:50  <andythenorth> i.e. extensible properties
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09:23:11  <andythenorth> so how do I do '0.67 * n'  in integer maths? :P
09:24:04  <andythenorth> "Floating-point operations are only possible when both operands are compile-time constants."
09:26:38  <floodious> 2/3 = 666/999 = etc
09:27:12  <floodious> with 16 bit precision assuming both source numbers are <256 it's 65536/3 / 65536
09:27:55  * andythenorth converts
09:27:58  <floodious> 21845 + 1/3rd which can be approximated with mul+shift+add if you want max precision
09:28:35  <floodious> but 21845 should get you close enough for 1/3rd
09:28:42  <floodious> 2/3rd = 43690 + 2/3rds
09:29:21  <floodious> since it's 2/3rds... i think you can round by
09:29:35  <floodious> (i * 43690 + 1) / 65536
09:31:36  <floodious> but then you need to get your 8 bits, so you have to divide 43690/256 first, = 170.6640625
09:32:14  <floodious> (i * 170 + 1) / 256 should fit in a 16-bit word register
09:35:28  <andythenorth> yeah, a simple '(n / 3) * 2'  is wrong due to rounding
09:35:49  * andythenorth sacks that
09:37:40  <nielsm> (n * 2) / 3 though
09:39:20  <nielsm> <floodious> (i * 43690 + 1) / 65536  <-- but if you have 32 bit registers and your inputs are sufficiently small do this as a microoptimization
09:39:44  <andythenorth> nielsm: (n * 3) / 3 returns 498 when n is 500
09:39:59  <andythenorth> rounding :P
09:40:28  <andythenorth> that was another 500KB of nml I could have saved, but eh no
09:40:45  <floodious> (100 * 170 + 1) / 256 = 66.41015625, error is 0.38%
09:41:05  <Wolf01> Hmmm, doubled 0M without noticing
09:41:09  <floodious> that's just using 8-bits of fraction (1/256th precision)
09:43:18  <andythenorth> maybe I can put 3 compile time constants in 3 registers
09:43:19  <andythenorth> hmm
09:43:27  <andythenorth> there's always _some_ horrible hack eh
09:43:50  <floodious> this is just fixed-point integer math stuff, been this way since the dawn of binary computing
09:44:07  * andythenorth is aware
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09:44:41  <floodious> doing long-division via various tricks you can improve precision if you really need it, but being off a fraction of a percent isn't going to have a major effect on stuff in a game, usually
09:44:54  <andythenorth> except when it trivially does
09:45:04  <planetmaker> <andythenorth> so how do I do '0.67 * n'  in integer maths? :P <--- n * 67 / 100
09:45:22  <floodious> well you're rounding to integers anyway, so if the error is less than the range of integers you get zero error in the result
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09:45:37  <planetmaker> mind that multiplication should be befor division (unless you run in overflow situations)
09:46:24  * planetmaker is slow :P
09:49:43  <andythenorth> compile time constants ftw I think :D
09:49:45  <andythenorth> less doubt
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09:54:56  <andythenorth> ok another 400KB of nml gone
10:11:11  <TrueBrain> murderer! :P
10:12:18  <floodious> no, more like precrime detective, eliminated 400 killerbytes before they could strike
10:13:26  <TrueBrain> that doesn't sound like andythenorth :P
10:13:37  <TrueBrain> <3
10:14:23  <andythenorth> TrueBrain: trying to save you the AWS fees :D
10:14:28  <andythenorth> not working though
10:14:47  <andythenorth> nfo is 3MB smaller, grf is same size :P
10:14:58  <TrueBrain> I noticed that finally we got an email back about the Open Source credits .. that it will take another 5 to 10 workdays for an answer :P
10:15:16  <andythenorth> does Bezos work christmas day?
10:15:33  <TrueBrain> does he work?
10:16:12  <andythenorth> 25 hours a day
10:16:24  <TrueBrain> which overflowed to -1, explains a lot
10:16:29  <TrueBrain> he found the infinite money cheat
10:16:35  <andythenorth> oof
10:18:26  <TrueBrain> right, I had to rework my CDK stuff ... lets get this stuff running on AWS or something ..
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10:19:52  <TrueBrain> <- that is nice :)
10:20:06  <andythenorth> it is
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10:55:51  <andythenorth> oof
10:55:57  <andythenorth> chores eh?
10:58:09  <FLHerne> andythenorth: What are your times for parsing/preprocess/output with nml and pypy?
10:58:59  <FLHerne> Here output is negligible compared to parsing FIRS taking 25s, probably because I have an SSD and a /reaaally/ slow CPU
11:00:38  <andythenorth> are you outputting nml or nfo?
11:02:55  <andythenorth> FLHerne: also actual times, or relative to py38?
11:13:35  <FLHerne> Actual, I guess
11:13:38  <FLHerne> nfo
11:17:21  <andythenorth> FLHerne: output firs nfo is 2.3s
11:17:29  <andythenorth> relatively negligible
11:19:07  <andythenorth> it's 7-8s for Iron Horse, for a smaller nml input file
11:22:37  <FLHerne> Weird
11:23:34  <andythenorth> with my horrible patch it's 1.5s to output Horse
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11:28:06  <TrueBrain> so what are two good words to differentiate these two pairs: Development/Production and Staging/Production
11:28:13  <TrueBrain> "env" doesn't cover it, as .. it can be either :P
11:28:29  <TrueBrain> (it is a 2 by 2 matrix)
11:28:54  <nielsm> maturity and deployment?
11:29:47  <TrueBrain> hmm, not bad :)
11:30:07  <TrueBrain> tnx :)
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11:34:59  <andythenorth> FLHerne oops clown shoes, FIRS nfo output time is 7.5s
11:35:09  <andythenorth> my previous time was with the horror-patch
11:35:20  <andythenorth> I forgot I had patched nmlc in my path
11:35:27  <FLHerne> Ah
11:42:08  <andythenorth> anyone know what I should do about loading speeds? :P
11:42:25  <TrueBrain> s/.*/return 0/
11:42:27  <TrueBrain> fixes it every time
11:42:42  <TrueBrain> (please don't :P)
11:46:35  <andythenorth> wfm though
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12:02:07  * andythenorth wonders what Eddi|zuHause thinks :P
12:02:12  <andythenorth> the question is, should loading speed be normalised so all vehicles load in constant time, regardless of capacity?
12:02:31  <andythenorth> the current Iron Horse code appears to try and do that, I do not really know why
12:06:03  <nielsm> loading speed can be a tradeoff between different car types that carry the same cargo
12:06:42  <andythenorth> yes
12:06:50  <andythenorth> I thought that was implemented, but code says
12:06:53  <andythenorth> nope
12:06:53  <nielsm> e.g. long-distance passer cars (in real life) often trade smaller doors for bigger comfort inside
12:07:13  <andythenorth> currently Horse normalises so all vehicles take 240 ticks to load
12:07:25  <andythenorth> I'm sure that was well-intentioned, but it seems odd
12:17:57  <FLHerne> andythenorth: I think it makes sense to normalize by default?
12:18:23  <andythenorth> it implies a 16t wagon takes same time to load as 48t?
12:18:25  <FLHerne> Then you can combine that with any adjustments for partiular vehicles
12:18:45  <FLHerne> I think that's probably true
12:19:01  <FLHerne> 16t wagons are loaded with shovels, 48t with big mechanical grabs
12:19:24  <FLHerne> (clearly stations should be able to modify loading speed, but...)
12:20:11  <FLHerne> Similarly, modern high-capacity carriages have wide aisles and big fast-acting sliding doors
12:20:35  <andythenorth> dwell time is one of the most significant factors in journey time :P
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12:35:45  <andythenorth> oof
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12:50:08  <Wolf01> Hmmm nielsm, how do I upgrade tracks with catenary?
12:53:05  <nielsm> Wolf01: save your game, exit, and reload
12:53:14  <Wolf01> Lolwhat?
12:53:27  <nielsm> if catenary is invented during play the upgrade function doesn't appear
12:53:35  <nielsm> you have to reload the game for it to appear
12:53:55  <nielsm> I wrote a bug report on the steam forum about it
12:54:48  <Wolf01> Meh, I'll wait then, it's just that only the new laid tracks have catenary so I need to remember to upgrade the old bits, or just disable catenary until I'm ready to upgrade
12:55:16  <nielsm> if you have stone bridges and want to upgrade them to steel you have to rebuild the track anyway
12:55:25  <Wolf01> I noticed that
12:55:36  <Wolf01> Also I need to skip like 1 in 3 songs because they won't play
12:56:11  <nielsm> I haven't had trouble with music not playing, I think
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13:04:21  <Wolf01> I'm station-walking more than OTTD, specially with docks
13:05:04  <nielsm> as in, using the module system to extend the vehicle stopping area from the road connection?
13:05:20  <Wolf01> Yes
13:10:37  <FLHerne> andythenorth: Ok, so with iron horse on pypy I get
13:11:02  <FLHerne> Parsing 40s, preproc 35s, writing 105s
13:11:04  <FLHerne> Yeah, that's bad
13:11:15  <nielsm> ouch
13:11:16  <andythenorth> try my horrid nml patch :)
13:11:30  <FLHerne> I'm about to try a different horrid patch :P
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13:19:40  <nielsm> thing I like about the train fever engine (that has remained through transport fever 2) is how fast it starts up to the main menu, with no weird window flashing or anything else
13:20:45  <Wolf01> Yeah, it doesn't load anything at startup... but you have to wait 10 minutes to load a game
13:21:16  <nielsm> hmm my savegame currently takes a minute or so to load (haven't timed it)
13:22:11  <michi_cc> Many other games nowadays have a launcher to launch the game, which means your Steam/GOG/Epic/Whatever launcher launches the launches that launches your game :p
13:23:47  <nielsm> probably my most "tryhard" station:
13:24:06  <nielsm> carving out a large bay to get a dock to a distant industry
13:24:17  <Wolf01> :D
13:24:22  <nielsm> was maybe 15 million for that terrain mod
13:25:46  <Wolf01> I'm experimenting with mixed platforms for trains, I have 6 lines in a 4 platform stations and no space to expand without rebuilding the entire thing and demolishing a lot of tracks/roads/other stations
13:26:15  <andythenorth> stern wheel paddle steamers?
13:26:30  <nielsm> yeah
13:26:46  <FLHerne> Wolf01: What do you mean by 'mixed platforms' ?
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13:27:18  <FLHerne> Wolf01: Oh, TF2 again
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13:28:34  <nielsm> also great change: stations can actually connect directly to industries, you don't _need_ a road between a train station and an industry, as long as an entry to the train station touches the industry in the right place
13:28:39  <Wolf01>
13:30:52  <Samu> the restart command is sometimes regenerate the map differently than that in the save
13:32:37  <planetmaker> Samu, yes. If the OpenTTD version is different. Identical map is only guaranteed when version is the same, including the versions of all NewGRFs and scripts used
13:35:07  <FLHerne> Why does nml write "// Automatically generated by GRFCODEC. Do not modify!" to the output NFO file?
13:35:27  <Samu> which vesion is gee91490e816a3
13:35:42  <FLHerne> Is there some tool that would get confused if it said `NML` instead?
13:36:03  <andythenorth> I do not know
13:36:14  <andythenorth> I wonder if it's legacy artefact
13:36:19  <Wolf01> also
13:38:47  <Samu> aha, that was it
13:38:55  <Samu> it's samupatchpackrebase
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13:44:12  <Wolf01> Ha! I found hot to enable traffic lights
13:44:17  <Wolf01> *how
13:44:42  <nielsm> FLHerne: I think older grfcodec versions were very strict about that header
13:45:03  <nielsm> here's the current header check:
13:45:46  <nielsm> the first line can be any comment, the second line must be an // (Info version x) line
13:47:36  <planetmaker> FLHerne, I seem to remember that nforenum likes that
13:48:09  <FLHerne> Ok, so there's probably a reason for it
13:49:16  <nielsm> nforenum shares the inforeader class in that file with grfcodec, so it probably accepts anything nowadays
13:49:58  <andythenorth> hoo
13:50:10  <planetmaker> yes, might simply be legacy
13:50:11  <andythenorth> Horse compile with pypy, and my changes is 22s with primed caches
13:50:21  <andythenorth> that's a lot faster than 1m 10s or so
13:50:52  <andythenorth> that relies on nmlc being patched for output speed
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14:04:46  <FLHerne> It would be nice if Python would document the `rename() fails across different filesystems` thing
14:04:54  <FLHerne> ISTR having the same problem before
14:11:07  <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: i was looking for that, but assumed the feature doesn't exist with 1910 roads
14:12:46  <Wolf01> You need to activate the traffic layer and then zoom in until the overlay icons appear on road intersections
14:13:35  <Eddi|zuHause> i've used that mode to tell the game "don't modify these roads". it's an awfully hidden feature
14:13:49  <Wolf01> Yes
14:16:06  <Eddi|zuHause> no, youtube, i do not want to try out youtube kids...
14:17:23  <Wolf01> TBH, traffic lights are useless now, people still cross with red light most of the time even with passing vehicles
14:18:06  <Wolf01> Maybe with a lot of traffic there's a noticeable difference
14:18:38  <andythenorth> is it lunch?
14:19:02  <nielsm> I still want a "wait for any load" option here (too)
14:19:04  <Wolf01> Had it like 2 hours ago
14:19:22  <nielsm> I should add some food to myself
14:19:48  <Wolf01> Time to electrify the main line
14:23:34  <FLHerne> andythenorth: Try ?
14:25:58  * andythenorth tries
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14:30:47  <Wolf01> Is it me or trains won't slow down if the next signal is red anymore?
14:31:03  <nielsm> I wonder if I can make one station catch both iron mines here...
14:32:21  <Wolf01> Yes, you can, put it in the middle and add modules on both ends, then connect the industries with a piece of road and win
14:35:22  <andythenorth> FLHerne: 0.9s output now for Horse, no errors reported
14:35:30  <andythenorth> 1s for FIRS
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14:35:57  <nielsm> yes just made it:
14:36:06  <nielsm> not allowed to make the station any longer than that
14:36:10  <Eddi|zuHause> i made a dock stretch a bit inland, to avoid hauling back and forth by car
14:36:19  <FLHerne> andythenorth: Sounds good
14:36:42  <andythenorth> making the image palette check optional would cut 1 second out also :P
14:37:02  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: sounds like a terrible idea
14:37:08  <andythenorth> why?
14:40:05  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] andythenorth commented on issue #76: nfo output is slow with pypy
14:42:32  <Samu> rebasings are difficult
14:42:54  <Samu> i'm getting weird conflicts that aren't conflicting at all
14:43:20  <Samu> it's the exact same code one side and the other
14:44:00  <glx> whitespace ?
14:44:31  <Samu> i had conflicts there in the past
14:44:41  <Samu> in a previous rebase, but I solved back then
14:47:28  <Samu>
14:47:37  <Samu> looks like it's repeating
14:47:43  <Samu> whatever, i just hope it's working
14:49:50  <andythenorth> look at the duplication :P
14:50:04  <andythenorth> just because OpenTTD doesn't transform offsets for reversed vehicles :P
14:50:39  <glx> pastebin is down for me
14:50:46  <andythenorth> again?
14:51:13  <glx> works now
14:51:24  <Samu> well, it's not crashing, so the fix is in
14:51:41  <andythenorth> @calc (22-16) / 22
14:51:41  <DorpsGek> andythenorth: 0.272727272727
14:51:58  <andythenorth> removing just part of the duplication saves 27% of compile time :P
14:52:22  <andythenorth> and cuts 6MB off the final grf size
14:53:27  <andythenorth> @calc (19-6) / 19
14:53:27  <DorpsGek> andythenorth: 0.684210526316
14:53:40  <andythenorth> 32% saving :P
14:53:53  * andythenorth wonders where openttd keeps the offsets :P
14:55:44  <frosch123> i had some wip for longer vehicle sprites, that changed the offset to be in the center
14:55:58  <peter1138> Is it Doom time?
14:56:15  <andythenorth> oooo
14:56:39  <andythenorth> frosch123: was it non-trivial?
14:57:09  <andythenorth> presumably there's 99 kinds of legacy string and edge cases
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14:59:44  <Samu> oh crap, i commited on master, how do I undo now?
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15:00:32  <Samu> also submitted to the internet bah
15:00:38  <frosch123> <- looks like the implementation only did ground work, but nothing advanced
15:00:47  <frosch123> i probably have some design text somewhere
15:01:37  <frosch123> but it was about grouping multiple articulated parts to display a single sprite, while ottd would figure out the position and bounding box of the sprite
15:02:15  <andythenorth> o_O
15:02:26  <milek7_> Samu: reset --hard to good commit and push --force
15:02:30  <peter1138> Samu, git reset... ^^
15:02:50  <milek7_> (and probably branch before reset to keep changes for later use)
15:02:53  <frosch123> <- ah, i made that image
15:03:04  <frosch123> there is probably some irc talk in the logs
15:03:11  <frosch123> if it was not with andy, then probably with V
15:03:19  <Samu> can i do rebase and then drop the commit?
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15:03:29  <supermop_Home> hi
15:03:34  <Samu> git reset --hard
15:04:12  <andythenorth> frosch123: that looks like an Eddi|zuHause thing :D
15:04:15  <glx> yes rebase with drop works too
15:04:31  <frosch123> andythenorth: it probably was about removing that cets mess :)
15:04:49  <Wolf01> ha!
15:05:21  <andythenorth> unrelated: extensible properties for vehicles? o_O
15:05:27  <andythenorth> per ID, not per instance
15:05:32  <andythenorth> like python class vars
15:05:47  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: in all likelyhood i commented something about the blue "anchor" dots having to be moved further inwards
15:06:24  <Samu> oh, must push with force now, right?
15:06:24  <Eddi|zuHause> like, to the center of the front/back vehicle
15:06:57  <Samu> cool, it's gone from the website too
15:06:58  <Samu> thx
15:07:05  <Wolf01> The blue anchor points should be the boogies pivots
15:08:37  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: log says that you highlighted V with this png
15:09:47  <Eddi|zuHause>
15:10:03  <andythenorth> slugs!
15:10:55  <andythenorth> wow earlier Horse was ugly :)
15:12:05  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick opened pull request #7866: Fix: Custom sea level default value is now equal to minimum value, not lower
15:26:42  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh approved pull request #7866: Fix: Custom sea level default value is now equal to minimum value, not lower
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15:35:47  <andythenorth> FLHerne: going to PR then? :)
15:35:50  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] glx22 opened pull request #77: Fix: don't try to debug_print not set optional GRF param number
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15:54:25  <andythenorth> oof Eddi|zuHause needs to finish that town grid patch
15:54:33  <andythenorth> I am playing master, towns are not very nice :|
15:55:32  <Eddi|zuHause> there exist things in this world that are more likely to happen
15:58:20  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] LordAro approved pull request #77: Fix: don't try to debug_print not set optional GRF param number
15:59:38  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] LordAro approved pull request #71: Add: nmlc option to force regeneration of parser tables
16:00:08  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] LordAro requested changes for pull request #68: Fix: close image files after use during palette check
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16:04:56  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] planetmaker merged pull request #71: Add: nmlc option to force regeneration of parser tables
16:06:45  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] planetmaker merged pull request #77: Fix: don't try to debug_print not set optional GRF param number
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16:19:21  <TrueBrain> w00p, seems I have IPv6 running on AWS, via CDK .. \o/
16:19:38  <TrueBrain> lets see if this means I can now provision the OpenTTD website ...
16:19:45  <andythenorth> :D
16:20:50  <andythenorth> hmm
16:20:57  * andythenorth wonders about changing cdist
16:21:16  <andythenorth> it disincentives connected networks
16:22:12  <planetmaker> so we need cargodest :P
16:22:29  <andythenorth> oof :)
16:23:46  <andythenorth> I have 'effect of distance on demand' at 0%
16:23:54  <andythenorth> which is required for e.g. FIRS supplies to work
16:24:01  <andythenorth> but destroys pax networks :)
16:25:17  <nielsm> so hack it by having per cargo type/class tuning?
16:25:59  <andythenorth> not sure :)
16:26:11  <andythenorth> I think any further changes to cdist need to be very careful
16:26:25  <andythenorth> :)
16:26:31  <planetmaker> cdist can be configured for pax + other cargoes separately, not?
16:26:41  <nielsm> enabled only
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16:32:47  <supermop_Home> planetmaker: you can't set different distance effect per that differentiation
16:33:26  <supermop_Home> andythenorth you can work around supplies a bit by constraing them
16:33:43  <planetmaker> hm :) Well...
16:33:56  <supermop_Home> industry can give cargo to two stations
16:34:32  <supermop_Home> so for an industry that makes supplies, I generally have one station that is for near and one for far destinations
16:35:17  <TrueBrain> "Dev-Staging-BinariesProxy-BinariesProxyNestedNestedStackNestedNestedStackResourceDF7EF-51P2LUWCR3C" <- you think it is nested?
16:35:31  <glx> maybe it is
16:35:36  <glx> but I'm not sure :)
16:35:39  <TrueBrain> I am not completely sure either ..
16:35:46  <TrueBrain> CDK can generate the weirdest names
16:35:58  <nielsm> imagine if it was abstract tho
16:42:35  <nielsm> the classic graph:
16:43:10  <andythenorth> lol
16:43:12  <andythenorth> no chasm
16:43:39  <Eddi|zuHause> nestception?
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16:47:06  <TrueBrain> <- this should work on IPv4 and IPv6 .. anyone wants to give it a spin?
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16:47:47  <TrueBrain> I think IPv6 is not working tbh :P
16:47:47  <glx> shows ipv4 here
16:48:00  <glx> but at least it doesn't fail
16:48:08  <TrueBrain> well, that is just the fallback at work in that case :D
16:48:19  <glx> better than before
16:48:44  <TrueBrain> now only the question .. why does it fail .. *puzzle time*
16:49:30  <TrueBrain> oops, egress-only-gateway
16:49:35  <TrueBrain> that ... might be the reason I guess? :D
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16:58:53  <TrueBrain> glx: how about now?
16:59:29  <glx> IPv6
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17:00:11  <TrueBrain> sweet
17:00:11  <TrueBrain> tnx
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17:18:28  <andythenorth> hmm
17:18:35  <andythenorth> Franco-Swiss-German Horse?
17:18:48  * andythenorth doesn't have enough projects
17:26:53  <frosch123> what would be different about that?
17:27:14  <frosch123> mountainious? iron ibex?
17:28:42  <frosch123> oh, btw... did you see that hillarious thread on reddit? someone complaining about oxygen in steeltown being unrealisitic, followed by other people citing wikipedia that it is realistic?
17:31:14  <Eddi|zuHause> a swiss horse is a sworse?
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17:32:55  <andythenorth> frosch123: reddit has discovered timetables also
17:33:01  <andythenorth> Iron Sworse
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17:53:56  <Samu> working with rebase is AIDS
17:54:00  <Samu> :(
17:54:18  <andythenorth> no Samu, AIDS is AIDS
17:54:21  <andythenorth> have some perspective
17:54:37  <Samu> why do I have to resolve conflicts everytime I rebase
17:54:43  <LordAro> so absurd it's funny
17:55:12  <LordAro> Samu: probably because whatever your changing is also being changed by master
17:55:19  <LordAro> you're*
17:55:21  <Samu> the change I did today, breaks something that was changed in the past
17:55:33  <Samu> why the heck do I care about what it was in the past
17:55:37  <LordAro> alternatively, you're doing the rebase wrong
17:56:02  <LordAro> or rather, using a suboptimal method
17:56:23  <glx> it seems you are merging
17:56:34  <Samu> seems that the chronological order is messed up
17:58:14  <glx> <-- that's a merge, not a rebase
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18:12:05  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro merged pull request #7866: Fix: Custom sea level default value is now equal to minimum value, not lower
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18:25:56  <nielsm> bunch of above-and-below:
18:27:27  <andythenorth> track on tunnel entrances!
18:33:04  <Samu> code shows repeating after the rebase, this sucks :(
18:33:12  <Samu> i wonder what else gone wrong
18:33:20  <glx> small optimisation for stuff like (loading speed in the bottom)
18:33:32  <Samu> erbase, merge, whatever..
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18:36:59  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro approved pull request #7864: Codechange: Replace FOR_ALL_XXX with range-based for loops
18:37:01  <Samu> I have no idea what I did...
18:37:25  <Samu> those repeating commits
18:37:26  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro approved pull request #7860: Fix: [MinGW] undefined references when _FORTIFY_SOURCE > 0
18:38:43  <LordAro> Samu: an actual rebase should remove the duplicated/empty commits
18:39:10  <nielsm> LordAro: I think he means there are code blocks that have become repeated
18:39:19  <Samu> yes that too
18:40:32  <Samu> the end result is what matters more, the way it gets there is just a mess though
18:40:33  <LordAro> ah
18:40:40  <LordAro> that's more difficult to fix
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18:40:59  <LordAro> still necessary though ;)
18:41:35  <glx> first step is to return to the state before the weird rebase/merge
18:41:45  <glx> then a proper rebase
18:42:20  <nielsm> it's a good idea to test compile before every commit in a difficult rebase or merge
18:42:29  <nielsm> and review the diffs before committing
18:42:35  <andythenorth> I like rebase now
18:42:44  <andythenorth> it's not an immediately obvious tool though
18:42:59  <glx> yeah rebase is so nice
18:43:21  <Samu> i feel like just doing fix up on everything :(
18:43:25  <glx> you can merge commits, split commits, reorder commits
18:45:50  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] DorpsGek pushed 1 commits to master
18:45:50  <DorpsGek_III>   - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
18:46:35  <Samu> found repeating code in framerate_gui
18:46:49  <milek7_> git interface is generally horrid
18:47:09  <glx> usually repeating code means a patch has been applied twice or more
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18:48:09  <Beerbelott> Problems on the website?
18:48:44  <glx> oh broken ipv6 bouncer again
18:48:58  <glx> s/bouncer/proxy/
18:49:27  <glx> TrueBrain: ^^
18:53:56  <Beerbelott> TLS session on [2a03:b0c0:2:d0::dc6:7001]:443 fails indeed
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19:08:49  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro opened pull request #7867: Update: Prepare for 1.10.0-beta2 release
19:10:02  <LordAro> oh hey, i got a Jedi url
19:10:59  <nielsm> Jedi J... is that Juke Jaywalker?
19:11:27  <LordAro> yes.
19:13:06  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh merged pull request #7864: Codechange: Replace FOR_ALL_XXX with range-based for loops
19:13:09  <nielsm> pow
19:13:31  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh merged pull request #7860: Fix: [MinGW] undefined references when _FORTIFY_SOURCE > 0
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19:14:33  <LordAro> always good to make half of all PRs conflict :)
19:15:28  <nielsm>
19:15:58  <nielsm> it's a Good Change
19:21:16  <frosch123> i think i can catch the other half
19:29:25  <TrueBrain> glx: fixed
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19:56:24  <nielsm> ughhhh this argument :(
20:00:14  <andythenorth> nope :)
20:02:13  <frosch123> imo some cheats should be moved into settings
20:02:40  <frosch123> for some reason some people refuse to use stuff labeled "cheat"
20:03:21  <milek7_> isn't it tricky to use in MP?
20:04:14  <andythenorth> it's just a non-issue :P
20:04:18  <frosch123> yes, for those which change the game state actively, but not for the "settings"
20:04:30  <andythenorth> never change anything :)
20:04:32  <andythenorth> OpenTTD is done
20:04:40  <andythenorth> spend all time on making nml faster :D
20:05:02  <frosch123> essentially "magic bulldozer", "tunnels crossing" and "small airport crashes" could become settings just fine
20:05:12  <nielsm> yeah
20:05:20  <nielsm> how about max map height?
20:05:21  <frosch123> they already work if you start the game in single player and then reload the game in multiplayer
20:05:27  <nielsm> that's a worldgen setting already
20:05:33  <frosch123> nielsm: i am currently wondering why it is there at all
20:05:43  <frosch123> probably because stuff breaks badly
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20:06:16  <nielsm> I guess if you lower the value, you risk being unable to modify some of the terrain?
20:06:18  <frosch123> i cannot imagine another reason other than not working correctly
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20:06:52  <nielsm> but it's not like the size of any memory allocations or such depend on that setting
20:07:03  <nielsm> no data needs to be moved around for it
20:07:35  <frosch123> i guess it requires reloading newgrf, so it would be a one of the "cannot change in running multiplayer game" settings
20:07:44  <nielsm> oh
20:07:47  <frosch123> but there are many of those
20:07:48  <nielsm> yeah
20:11:16  <frosch123> (svn r26887) -Add: cheat for changing the height level (mostly due to the mess with changing snow levels and such)
20:12:20  <frosch123> "this is a cheat because of the fact that it needs to reset NewGRF game state and doing so as a simple configuration breaks the expectation of many"
20:13:37  <andythenorth> sandbox mode
20:13:41  <andythenorth> modes are evil
20:13:46  <andythenorth> but modes also manage expectations
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21:13:01  <TrueBrain> okay, it seems I did everything I had to do to get the website on AWS ..
21:13:09  <TrueBrain> well, besides auto-deploy on commit/tag :)
21:14:55  <TrueBrain> not an easy battle, this AWS stuff ... example:
21:17:34  <TrueBrain> now I need to fix the Docker of 'website', as it has some annoying quirks :P
21:17:39  <andythenorth> huzzah :D
21:17:41  <LordAro> TrueBrain: nice.
21:31:35  <Samu> anyone read into that?
21:34:19  <Samu> my AI won't showcase its best with default presets. Easy profile is the default :(
21:34:28  <Samu> many others won't too
21:35:05  <Samu> looking for the best AI and then using easy preset, feels like...
21:35:29  <Samu> I dunno
21:35:53  <Samu> maybe I don't like losing
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21:39:06  <nielsm> well suggest it? that games should be run with a variety of settings
21:40:23  <Samu> map is size is kinda small, 256 x 256, my tests usually involve 512x256 or 512x512 minimum, but i guess that's just me
21:40:49  <Samu> but interesting to see others run competitions instead of me
21:43:05  <Samu> the tests are being run with inflation on and airports noise disabled, hmm
21:43:14  <Samu> that's really default
21:44:55  <peter1138> 64x64 is small...
21:45:06  <peter1138> Next you'll be telling me 640x480 is low resolution.
21:46:00  <Samu> size sometimes matter
21:46:25  <Samu> the original ludiai just places 2 airports no matter the distance between them
21:46:46  <Samu> on small maps, that's not a problem, but in large maps, such big distances can lead to negative profits
21:47:11  <Samu> it's funny to see the original LuDiAI ranked #1
21:47:53  <Samu> it's not being exposed of its weaknesses, also there's no difference between easy/medium/hard on the original
21:48:15  <Samu> so, it's performing better than mine
21:48:46  <Samu> sad to see LuDiAI AfterFix ranked #30+
21:49:37  <nielsm> over-optimized for certain cases?
21:49:58  <Samu> mine won't build near competitors with easy preset
21:50:12  <Samu> also picks towns at random, instead of the most productive one
21:51:58  <Samu> the original just picks the better towns
21:52:13  <Samu> builds near competitors
21:52:27  <Samu> but that's because of the preset, mine would also do that if the preset was Hard
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22:13:21  <Samu> perhaps the default should be changed to hard? what do you think about that?
22:13:33  <Samu> make a PR changing the default
22:13:53  <supermop_Home> what's all this airport size business
22:14:47  <Samu> town council airport noise
22:15:03  <Samu> a default openttd install has this setting disabled
22:18:04  <nielsm> no it's the change of large airplanes now always having a risk of crashing at small airports, in 1.10
22:18:17  <nielsm> (unless you use the cheat)
22:21:17  <Samu> ah, that one
22:21:30  <Samu> it's my fault
22:21:55  <Samu> i actually wanted one extra setting
22:22:26  <Samu> but somebody else said that disabled wasn't supposed to never crash
22:22:42  <Samu> think it was zuhause
22:23:27  <nielsm> TTD originally didn't have any way to control the risk of airplane crashes at all
22:24:26  <nielsm> ttdpatch allows the disasters difficulty setting to affect it, and also allows the higher risk of jet planes on small airports to be removed or reduced
22:28:37  <andythenorth> is it bedtime?
22:29:00  <andythenorth> why aren't crashes a function of newgrf airports?
22:29:09  <andythenorth> :P
22:33:28  <Samu> here it is
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22:35:58  <Samu> it was because of that PR that 1.10 is now like that, regarding aircraft
22:37:26  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] glx22 opened pull request #78: Add: optimise switch returning constants
22:38:25  <nielsm> the first step for nmlc to become an optimizing compiler!
22:38:42  <glx> small step, but I think it's a good idea
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22:39:46  <nielsm> yeah, basic reductions of "obvious" cases is a very good start
22:44:01  <supermop_Home> andythenorth should I start a new game of something?
22:44:16  <andythenorth> I am playing steeltown
22:44:19  <andythenorth> and Horse
22:44:20  <andythenorth> and stuff
22:45:03  <andythenorth> glx :)
22:45:43  <andythenorth> btw those switches are a bug, but faster nml is always good
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22:46:56  <glx> not sure it will be faster, but at least it will report them while replacing
22:47:48  <glx> but it will definitely generate a faster grf
22:49:59  <andythenorth> we don't performance measure grfs, currently?
22:50:06  <andythenorth> should we?
22:50:16  <glx> it's part of the gameloop
22:51:10  <nielsm> I guess it'd be possible to instrument newgrf callbacks for performance measurement
22:51:39  <Samu> my christmas present :p
22:51:42  <nielsm> it would probably also be another case of the act of measuring affecting total performance
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23:05:03  <Samu> IdleMoreMore
23:05:03  <Samu>  VS
23:05:03  <Samu> RailwAI
23:05:11  <Samu> why test such AIs :(
23:05:25  <Samu> IdleMore does nothing
23:07:08  <Samu> i just noticed I'm ranked #27 and #40 at the same time
23:07:19  <Samu> bugged website
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23:14:51  <nielsm> <-- well, measuring _something_
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23:26:18  <andythenorth> :)
23:26:40  <nielsm>
23:28:13  <nielsm> I'm not sure I want to PR it, as it can probably kill performance on certain games
23:28:36  <glx> and it won't measure per grf I guess
23:29:06  <nielsm> yeah that would require some extra logic in the framerate code
23:29:26  <glx> and more performance killing :)
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23:30:11  <milek7_> performance measuring is so expensive?
23:30:38  <andythenorth>
23:30:42  <nielsm> but it might be worth it have a separate performance capture system for newgrf callbacks, that logs to a file and only for a specific newgrf
23:30:45  <glx> it's a small overload, but everything adds up
23:30:47  <andythenorth> also bedtime :)
23:31:05  * andythenorth will read logs
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23:31:08  <nielsm> and could possibly even separate out by toplevel spritegroup or some such
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23:32:59  <nielsm> e.g. a console command you give a loaded grf index and a duration in seconds (or maybe number of ticks or game days) to capture for, and it adds up stuff and writes a csv file to the screenshots directory
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23:39:58  <Samu> just a random music passing by
23:40:13  <Samu> i'm off to bed, take care
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