Log for #openttd on 14th January 2020:
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01:30:51  <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 commented on pull request #7912: Feature: Disallow industry production changes from GS
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03:17:27  <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] JGRennison opened pull request #7935: Add: Option for a new transfer feeder payment algorithm
03:22:26  <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] ldpl commented on pull request #7935: Add: Option for a new transfer feeder payment algorithm
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07:32:04  <andythenorth> is it though?
07:34:06  <Pikka> only sometimes
07:34:42  <andythenorth> do you timetable often?
07:36:05  <Pikka> only during the eclipse of the sun
07:36:16  <Pikka> I don't think I've ever used timetables in OTTD
07:39:02  <andythenorth> lot of chat about it in forums & reddit
07:39:13  <andythenorth> I use 'wait at station' sometimes
07:39:25  <andythenorth> the rest...I've concluded my brain isn't that shape
07:39:46  <andythenorth> people have discussions about it where I understand the words, but not the discussion :)
07:59:33  <andythenorth> Pikka: is it pixels, or AIs? :)
07:59:49  <Pikka> trying to pixels, but AI is too easy to fiddle with
08:00:18  <andythenorth> hurrah
08:00:37  <Pikka> recoded av9.8, should try drawing one of those :)
08:00:57  <andythenorth> it's a classic
08:01:22  <andythenorth> what will be new? 99x zoom? :)
08:01:58  <Pikka> yes, UKRS3 style hand-drawn
08:02:09  <Pikka> plus slightly rebalanced, rejigged for 20th C gameplay
08:02:16  <Pikka> another early plane, no A380
08:02:52  <andythenorth> super!
08:03:11  <andythenorth> 9.8 does everything I need, but new is also good
08:05:26  <Pikka> it's not changed much, just changed a few intro dates to fit. and changed a few names to confuse people. :)
08:05:46  <andythenorth> so intro-date scaling parameter? o_O
08:06:06  <andythenorth> based on 1860 start :P
08:06:24  <Pikka> 1860 planes?
08:06:39  <Pikka> or 1860 trains? how does the scaling work?
08:07:11  <andythenorth> if the parameter is 2x, and 1860 is the baseline, then a '1960' train appears in 2060
08:07:21  <andythenorth> it's silly, but I might do it in Horse
08:07:51  <Pikka> it is a bit silly, but why not?
08:08:18  <andythenorth> snail pointed out that town buildings will be wrong
08:08:38  <andythenorth> currently I have been playing 1968 for....some time
08:08:40  <andythenorth> date cheat :P
08:21:36  <Pikka> surely everything but the trains will be wrong? :)
08:23:27  <andythenorth> well I could do all my grfs :P
08:23:40  <andythenorth> but clicking the date cheat eh
08:26:36  <andythenorth> BBLer
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10:08:17  <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] floodious commented on pull request #7924: Feature: Water tiles have a depth
10:17:43  <peter1138> Is it lunch time yet?
10:23:22  <LordAro> can't be, i've not got to work yet
10:47:58  <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on pull request #7924: Feature: Water tiles have a depth
10:50:22  <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] floodious commented on pull request #7924: Feature: Water tiles have a depth
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11:25:06  <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] floodious commented on pull request #7924: Feature: Water tiles have a depth
11:37:50  <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on pull request #7924: Feature: Water tiles have a depth
11:40:36  <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on pull request #7924: Feature: Water tiles have a depth
11:40:43  <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] floodious commented on pull request #7924: Feature: Water tiles have a depth
11:43:01  <Pikka>
11:43:11  <Pikka> not sure why I don't always play with "silly" townnames :)
11:50:01  <planetmaker> hehe :) What's the ground tiles, though?
11:58:58  <Pikka> my landscape tiles... no public release yet, aiming for mid-year. :)
12:14:57  <planetmaker> nice :)
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12:23:36  <hythlodaeus> guys what's your opinion on OpenLoco?
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12:36:06  <Pikka> not much, hythlodaeus? Locomotion is a bit limited compared to TTD and I guess the same goes for the Open version.
12:36:51  <Pikka> I don't know if anyone's actively working on it
12:42:46  <LordAro> Pikka: offshoot from openrct2, aiui
12:43:11  <LordAro> which by all accounts has been very successful
12:43:39  <Pikka> Yes, I know it exists. Just don't know if anyone's doing anything with it. Doesn't seem to have had any changes in months.
13:00:22  <peter1138> Might have breakfast now.
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13:13:04  <Samu> hi
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14:13:04  <Pikka> hi
14:20:57  <nielsm> hmm... trying to think of how to newgrf water depths
14:21:58  <nielsm> will probably need a new canals sub-feature for base water sprites, and then add a property to specify which depth ranges there are sprites for
14:22:06  <nielsm> perhaps?
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14:22:52  <nielsm> it's probably not a good idea to use callbacks for it, for performance
14:23:27  <nielsm> the real fun will be in supporting depth transition tiles
14:24:04  <nielsm> unless we want to use some kind of dither stuff where two ground tiles are overlaid, with one masked off
14:28:09  <nielsm> or... an action 5 thing?
14:32:31  <hythlodaeus> have you had a look at other games for ref?
14:34:26  <nielsm> how will other games help me choose a technical implementation of supplying graphics within the existing framework?
14:39:45  <hythlodaeus> you never know. sometimes even by observing the way other games behave in action, even if you don't have the source code, you can get ideas and inspiration to come up with solutions for your own problems
14:40:27  <nielsm> here the most relevant thing to do is look at how ottd is already solving the same problem for other cases where additional sprites need to be supplied for something that originally had only one sprite
14:41:41  <hythlodaeus> sure, that's fair
14:42:55  <Samu> i finally got the courage to start working on "build on competitor canal"
14:43:13  <Samu> something I have done before
14:43:20  <Samu> but now rebasing to current standards
14:43:24  <Samu> conflicts everywhere
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14:44:13  <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] xdavidwu opened pull request #7936: Fix: [SDL2] sdl driver debug log
14:46:10  <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh approved pull request #7936: Fix: [SDL2] sdl driver debug log
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15:33:53  <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] RoqueDeicide commented on pull request #7924: Feature: Water tiles have a depth
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15:55:02  <nielsm> w00p it works!
15:56:13  <peter1138> MERGE
15:58:34  <Samu> different color water?
15:58:47  <nielsm> different water sprites depending on depth
15:58:59  <supermop_work> HELL YEAH
15:59:06  <supermop_work> looks dope
16:00:25  <supermop_work> new feature request: some tiny boat that sinks in deep water a la civilization
16:02:35  <peter1138> New way to grief ships? :D
16:02:39  <peter1138> Cos we need more :D
16:02:48  <peter1138> Triremes, my poor triremes...
16:03:25  <supermop_work> even better i it just reuses the vanilla crash animation, explodes, spins around, then sits there burnt out on top of the water for 4 months
16:04:24  <nielsm>  even with this prototype hacked-together graphics it looks so nice :D
16:05:10  <peter1138> supermop_work, haha
16:05:11  <_dp_> idk, looks weird
16:05:17  <peter1138> nielsm, looks fine to me.
16:05:19  <_dp_> would be better to make deep water darker imo
16:05:34  <peter1138> So does it allow underwater tunnels or is that... something else?
16:05:36  <_dp_> also having more waves on deep water makes no sense
16:05:37  <nielsm> well yes but I'm not the artist here :P
16:05:41  <peter1138> _dp_, "hacked-together graphics"
16:05:58  <peter1138> Waves are a feature of the surface...
16:06:33  <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh updated pull request #7924: Feature: Water tiles have a depth
16:07:37  <peter1138> Hmm, so water depth is actually separate from tile height. Interesting.
16:07:58  <nielsm> but yes I agree that deep water should generally have less waves
16:08:15  <peter1138> Yes. I must admit I missed the "more" part :p
16:08:36  <LordAro> colour should definitely be distinct, imo
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16:09:02  <peter1138> Graphics artists can do that ;p
16:09:03  <nielsm> yea
16:09:31  <nielsm> the problem is somewhat that there are only two water animation cycles
16:09:49  <nielsm> so you'd have to make the not-default-blue colours non-animated
16:10:47  <LordAro> definitely a problem for graphics artists
16:10:55  <LordAro> where's an andy when you need one?
16:19:19  <planetmaker> nielsm, wouldn't it indeed be possible as initially suggested by andrew to make some kind of semi-opaque overlay?
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16:19:37  <planetmaker> we use 32bpp blitters anyway on all systems except those from the stone age with 8bpp graphics cards
16:19:50  <planetmaker> so such overlay should even work with 8bpp sprite sets
16:19:55  <nielsm> hm yeah maybe it would be possible to do some fancy tricks on 32bpp
16:20:57  <planetmaker> somewhat similar maybe even to the glass effect... like recolour sprites might be another idea... dunno... I've never ventured in those too much
16:23:11  <Samu> so much messy code in lock
16:23:17  <Samu> DoBuildLock
16:23:37  <Samu> im surprised test and exec mode don't assert
16:24:26  <Samu> it adds the cost of building a canal
16:24:36  <Samu> in test mode and exec mode
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16:25:46  <Samu> in test mode IsWaterTile is false, in exec mode, IsWaterTile is true
16:25:49  <Samu> at this line here
16:26:14  <Samu> so in the end, it does not have a canal, but i still payed the price of it
16:26:39  <Samu> test and exec still match, because the prices are the same for some magical reason
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16:45:52  <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] ldpl commented on pull request #7912: Feature: Disallow industry production changes from GS
16:48:54  <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on pull request #7912: Feature: Disallow industry production changes from GS
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17:02:16  <Samu> tile type object
17:02:32  <Samu> and water
17:02:40  <Samu> a deadly combination
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17:05:47  <planetmaker> for the water?
17:10:12  <Samu> for having this work correctly
17:10:27  <Samu> yes
17:10:40  <Samu> clearing an object on water, which results in water
17:11:01  <Samu> without modifying the waterclass
17:17:32  <Samu> while building a lock
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17:19:47  <andythenorth> Pikka: so
17:19:55  <Pikka> yes?
17:19:56  <andythenorth> vehicle instance names in newgrf? o_O
17:20:07  <andythenorth> the AI does a nice job, but I am not an AI
17:22:20  <Pikka> you need a helper AI to rename your vehicles?
17:24:40  <andythenorth> would I have to run that multiplayer? o_O
17:24:52  <andythenorth> can I add an AI to my company? :P
17:27:21  <Pikka> you can start an AI then use the cheat menu to switch into the AI company
17:27:29  <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] ldpl commented on pull request #7912: Feature: Disallow industry production changes from GS
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18:13:07  <Samu> extremelly difficult with objects
18:15:15  <Samu> well apparently the game is making it easier for me. Objects placed on water by a company that bankrupts, gets its objects removed from the map
18:15:20  <Samu> they don't stay
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18:45:49  <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] DorpsGek pushed 1 commits to master
18:45:49  <DorpsGek_III_>   - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
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18:49:34  <andythenorth> yo
18:54:57  <andythenorth> @seen floodius
18:54:57  <DorpsGek> andythenorth: I have not seen floodius.
18:57:03  <nielsm> @seen floodious
18:57:03  <DorpsGek> nielsm: floodious was last seen in #openttd 1 week, 0 days, 22 hours, 1 minute, and 35 seconds ago: * floodious goes out
18:57:26  <frosch123> nice last message :)
19:01:48  <andythenorth> there are only so many types of programmer
19:02:01  <andythenorth> and there is a particular type who gives a long explanation of correctness
19:02:13  <andythenorth> combined with "I haven't looked at the code"
19:02:24  <andythenorth> tell me you haven't worked with these people ever? o_O
19:05:56  <frosch123> nielsm: i found what i did wrong the other day. i forgot that nuts includes railtypes and did not notice that the "weird vehicle item ids" were railtype labels
19:06:26  <nielsm> ah yeah
19:07:04  <frosch123> @base 10 16 1431193905
19:07:04  <DorpsGek> frosch123: 554E4931
19:10:15  <andythenorth> nielsm: so if there's a lake up in a mountain range, and I lower terrain...what happens?
19:10:28  <andythenorth> [this question is really about reservoir / dam objects] :P
19:11:07  <nielsm> the water has depth but it does not have volume :P
19:11:44  <andythenorth> so the water just disappears?
19:12:08  <nielsm> well if you clear the water tiles then they disappear yes
19:12:30  <nielsm> making stuff flow would be troublesome
19:12:38  <frosch123> <- nielsm: do you have a cool idea for that?
19:12:41  <andythenorth> nah not required at all, it's not minecraft :)
19:12:49  * andythenorth wondering if we can have object / industry tiles that lie about the local tile height
19:13:13  <nielsm> frosch123: not sure what you mean
19:13:15  <frosch123> i want to parse all files with a specific prefix, but the time always advances
19:13:22  <nielsm> ah...
19:13:40  <andythenorth> the hydro plant idea can wait :P
19:13:45  <andythenorth> also watermill
19:13:57  <nielsm> I guess maybe the timestamp should be collection start time, not file write time
19:17:54  <supermop_work> WATERMILL TYCOON
19:18:13  <nielsm> transport dwarf deluxe
19:18:28  <nielsm> openttdwarf
19:18:36  <supermop_work> reuse crash animation for flour mill explosion
19:19:20  <supermop_work> watermill explodes, pallet shifts to black, spins around
19:20:21  <TrueBrain> milek7_: do you have your patch for AFL? I found some old patches which we used to run AI tournaments, and I wonder if there are snippets in there that might benefit AFL (as tournament is optimized for speed) .. so any code you have makes it a bit faster to check :)
19:20:26  <frosch123> openttdwarf is when the palette animation makes the whole screen blink red, right?
19:20:43  * andythenorth moves the date from 1969 to 1968 for 3rd time in a row
19:20:50  <andythenorth> 'daylength, without the hassle'
19:21:33  <andythenorth> frosch123: I linked the Doom Black Book recently, the palette tricks are really smart
19:22:07  <frosch123> i never played doom :)
19:22:26  <andythenorth> I never played Dwarf Fortress :D
19:22:30  <andythenorth>
19:23:17  <frosch123> andythenorth: there is a type of game which i would like to play in theory, but quit after 5 minutes because the interface makes me throw up. simutrans and dwarf fortress are among them
19:23:25  <andythenorth> fair
19:23:44  <frosch123> first time i tried df i came until i had to select a location for settlement
19:23:48  <andythenorth> anyway chapter 5.13
19:23:54  <frosch123> i applied some filters, and then the whole screen was blinking red
19:24:19  <frosch123> i still do not know whether red blinking X means the filter criterion is met or not met
19:24:37  <andythenorth> oh also 5.12.8 Diminishing Lighting
19:24:58  * andythenorth looks at the 12 magic pinks in the DOS palette
19:25:03  <andythenorth> feels like they're...wasted
19:25:20  <andythenorth> so 3rd company colour? o_O
19:25:42  <andythenorth> or I could use them for my own recolouring crap that I do, I've run out of safe ranges for it
19:26:39  <andythenorth> I use purple and red
19:29:23  <frosch123> 2 orthogonal recolourings are already pushing it
19:29:28  <frosch123> if you want more, use sprite layers
19:29:35  <Samu> is there a way to know whether clearing a tile will result in a clear water tile?
19:29:53  <frosch123> 1cc needs 16 palettes, 2cc needs 256, 3cc would need 4096
19:30:02  <Samu> like rocks on water, i clear the rocks, i get clear water
19:30:20  <Samu> tile type is object
19:30:23  <frosch123> recolouring palettes must be in the global sprite range < 16k
19:31:06  <andythenorth> I'm recolouring in PIL
19:31:30  <andythenorth> with a silly side effect due to my poor programming
19:31:35  <frosch123> so you include 4096 sprites for a single train sprite?
19:31:45  <andythenorth> errr...possibly yes
19:32:01  * andythenorth counts
19:33:11  <andythenorth> @calc (35 * 2 * 8) + 8
19:33:11  <DorpsGek> andythenorth: 568
19:33:30  <andythenorth> hmm
19:33:31  <andythenorth> nvm
19:33:37  <andythenorth> might be talking at cross purposes :)
19:35:20  <nielsm> is it time to have just-in-time pre-combined sprites?
19:36:31  <andythenorth> it doesn't solve any problem I have afaik
19:36:49  <nielsm> (a single spriteid makes a callback/series of callbacks that returns a list of sprites and relative positions and results in them being pre-combined into a single sprite cache image which can then be re-used)
19:37:20  <andythenorth> I generate large numbers of sprites because checking vehicle cargos or recolourings in a spritesheet is ~infinitely faster than checking them in game
19:37:32  <nielsm> hmm well yeah it would probably have to be sprite+parameters
19:37:59  <andythenorth> the overhead of setting up new games covering every possible supported cargo, and then creating the industry chains
19:38:00  <andythenorth> nah
19:38:37  <frosch123> nielsm: check VehicleSpriteSeq
19:38:43  <andythenorth> I could step through with the sprite inspector I guess, but it's still slow
19:38:52  <frosch123> it's already a sequence, feel free to make ottd combine the sprites
19:39:32  <frosch123> haha, oh yes, jit-sprites would break the sprite inspector :p
19:39:54  <milek7_> TrueBrain: i have no special patch except __AFL_INIT() before LoadIntroGame, _exit after it, don't retry at SL_REINIT, disable crash logging
19:40:07  <andythenorth> not sure what problems it would solve :)
19:40:12  <TrueBrain> can you share? :)
19:40:13  <milek7_> with lightweight savegame it does 20runs/s per core
19:40:17  <TrueBrain> I love the "no special except ..." list :D
19:40:51  <TrueBrain> 20 runs/s is not bad; 5 times faster than the 4 :D
19:41:11  <andythenorth> so is there anything can be done to debug this?
19:41:52  <andythenorth> not shown in that video, but stopping all trains also restores the fps to 34
19:42:16  <andythenorth> and in my testing, vanilla does the same thing, so it's not my newgrf
19:42:53  <nielsm> the thing where fps drops to half when you shade a window?
19:43:13  <andythenorth> unshade
19:43:15  <andythenorth> but yes
19:43:29  <andythenorth> it's not the profit display text rendering either, I deleted that
19:43:42  <frosch123> the vehicle list probably redraws every tick
19:43:43  <nielsm> I really heavily suspect it has to do with the video driver timing/rendering somehow causing the OS to give the process less time
19:43:49  <andythenorth> and it's not 2x UI or 2x text zoom, although they affect how easily it gets triggered
19:43:50  <frosch123> to show loading progress and stuff
19:44:06  <andythenorth> nielsm: do we change video driver timing when all trains are stopped?
19:44:12  <nielsm> frosch123: the drawing times don't really increase appreciably
19:44:33  <nielsm> andythenorth no, I think it has to do with crossing over some magic threshold for average frame time
19:44:58  <andythenorth> oh yes, I recall your theory :)
19:44:59  <nielsm> something similar to how vsync can cause significant framerate drops
19:45:12  <andythenorth> peter thought it might be train pathfinding
19:45:21  <nielsm> if you submit a frame just after sync then you get to wait a full cycle for your next frame
19:45:53  <nielsm> and that won't show up as time spent working on anything, it's just idle time
19:46:29  <nielsm> frame times are fine, but frame cadence is terrible
19:47:09  <andythenorth> it's pretty easy to repro with vanilla trains on 1.10-beta2
19:47:22  <andythenorth> it doesn't require a big game
19:47:33  <milek7_> TrueBrain: really, nothing special in it :)
19:47:36  <milek7_>
19:47:44  <nielsm> have you tried/managed to make a build with SDL or SDL2 instead of the regular mac driver?
19:47:46  <milek7_> CC=afl-clang-fast CXX=afl-clang-fast++ ./configure
19:47:56  <milek7_>
19:48:02  <andythenorth> can't remember if I tried
19:48:40  <milek7_> (TBH it could be worth to test also on old TTD DOS save format)
19:48:52  <andythenorth> I didn't comment on the SDL2 PR to say I'd tested it
19:48:59  <TrueBrain> cheers milek7_; saves me a bit of time hunting where to hit return :)
19:49:45  * andythenorth looks how to configure SDL build
19:50:00  <frosch123> nielsm: andythenorth: when i shade/unshade the vehicle list while the game is paused i get a single peak for drawing of the window
19:50:08  <frosch123> i do not see any peak in andys video
19:50:45  <andythenorth> oh the video is a bit wrong
19:50:50  <andythenorth> I forgot to windowshade the fps window
19:51:10  <andythenorth> can't trust the fps window if it's not shaded, as it hammers the fps down
19:51:13  <frosch123> also pause the game, if it is not
19:51:58  <frosch123> andythenorth: for me the tooltip has a huge effect
19:51:59  <andythenorth> pausing the game eliminates the fps drop
19:52:14  <frosch123> set the tooltip delay to 1 second or something to make it show
19:52:19  <nielsm> frosch123 still the important part imo is that the graphics rendering is not taking 50+ ms when fra framerate is bad, everything is still well within the 30 ms budget
19:52:56  <andythenorth> I am curious about why stopping all trains solves the issue
19:53:10  <andythenorth> should I run that macOS Instruments profiler?
19:53:28  <andythenorth> might as well
19:53:34  <frosch123> andythenorth: that would confirm nielsm again. there are thresholds, like for climate
19:55:10  <frosch123> ottd also sleeps differents amount of time depending how long the gameloop/drawing takes
19:55:34  <frosch123> maybe your task sheduler only reassigns the cpu every now and then
19:55:46  <frosch123> so sometimes ottd sleeps longer than requested
19:56:52  <frosch123> nielsm: anyway, when the game is paused the tooltip window doubles the drawing time for me :)
19:57:16  <milek7_> it sounds like battery saving shenanigans, but we already tested that?
19:57:36  <frosch123> also what is the logic of the graphs switching the time range all the time?
19:59:12  <nielsm> andythenorth: src/video/cocoa/ line 711 should be CSleep(1); - try adding this just after the "else" line preceding that: PerformanceMeasurer perf(PFE_AI14);
19:59:38  <nielsm> just to measure that block containing the CSleep(1) using a thing that should be free
20:00:08  <frosch123> why does the chart switch between 2.5 seconds and 5.5 seconds every now and then?
20:00:32  <andythenorth> nielsm: I'll try that in a minute
20:00:34  <andythenorth> meanwhile
20:00:44  <andythenorth> also the fps on self-compiled openttd is crap anyway
20:00:53  <andythenorth> I'm having to use the official binaries to get a playable game
20:01:05  <andythenorth> ^^^ that chart is completely counterintuitive eh
20:01:33  <nielsm> it just shows that the game is using less cpu when drawing less frames per second
20:01:34  <frosch123> hmm, seems to be related to ottd skipping frames
20:02:31  <nielsm> andythenorth: maybe also try adding a PerformanceMeasurer with PFE_AI13 or something just after the for(;;) on line 671
20:02:35  <nielsm> to get the entire driver loop
20:02:47  <andythenorth> ok I'll have to cook dinner and then try :)
20:02:52  <andythenorth> interesting problem though
20:02:52  <nielsm> :D
20:03:19  <TrueBrain> milek7_: ah, you are only loading the savegame :) I was also wondering what happens if it runs a few ticks :)
20:03:27  <nielsm> measuring the QZ_PollEvent() loop on 674 might also be interesting
20:04:54  <andythenorth> I have all the stats from the run
20:06:37  <andythenorth> I don't know what's normal, but -[OTTD_QuartzView drawRect:] is pretty busy
20:07:10  <milek7_> TrueBrain: yes, but it is ok for now, it gathers enough crashes ;p
20:07:20  <TrueBrain> fair enough :)
20:08:07  <milek7_> 75kB is still huge testcase for AFL, but I don't know if it can be lowered further
20:08:41  <andythenorth> for 3s run time with train window open, OTTD_QuartzView drawRect is 90ms
20:09:07  <TrueBrain> hmm .. with the way savegames are created, it won't be very efficient in trying special cases in any case
20:09:24  <nielsm> andythenorth: that's about 1 ms per frame, that's perfectly acceptable
20:09:26  <andythenorth> for 3s run time with train window shaded OTTD_QuartzView drawRect  is 20ms
20:09:33  <nielsm> 3 seconds should have about 100 frames rendered
20:09:34  <andythenorth> this is only a single sample though
20:09:50  <nielsm> or well, 2 ms per frame if running at half speed
20:09:50  <andythenorth> might be irrelevant noise
20:10:04  <TrueBrain> milek7_: for now for me it doesn't even want to pick up any new path :P
20:10:38  <milek7_> timeout too low/hits memory limit?
20:10:39  <frosch123> andythenorth: nielsm: <- that is a unoptimised debug build with a big #coop game. the vehicle list also has significant effect there, if nothing else is on the screen
20:11:33  <frosch123> it eats 3 fps
20:11:59  <nielsm> looks like it gets invalidated every tick
20:12:33  <frosch123> likely, it for sure does not track when vehicles get new sprites :)
20:12:38  <nielsm> but in your video the rendering time also jumps massively when it opens, it doesn't do that in andy's
20:12:56  <TrueBrain> milek7_: nah, I was being silly with an old patch of mine
20:13:15  <TrueBrain> what I miss in your patch .. afl uses stdin with its fuzzed attempt .. how does it end up in the intro-game for you?
20:13:24  <peter1138> Did I break vehicle lists? :p
20:13:37  <peter1138> If so it's been a while o_O
20:13:48  <milek7_> afl-fuzz -f takes output path
20:13:56  <TrueBrain> ah, lol
20:14:39  <Samu> need to simplify this code
20:14:51  <andythenorth> peter1138: no progress without breakage :)
20:15:09  <TrueBrain> meh, where savegames used to be loaded no longer does .. *sad panda*
20:15:18  <TrueBrain> okay, this patch is 10+ years old :P
20:15:18  <peter1138> If it's 'invalidated' every tick, might be a dodgy gui timer...
20:16:42  <milek7_> set -v/-m/-s/-b to null too
20:18:48  <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc commented on pull request #7935: Add: Option for a new transfer feeder payment algorithm
20:19:16  <frosch123> looks like the window is invalidated whenever a vehicle loads
20:19:26  <frosch123> so for a savegame this size, it is every game tick
20:20:14  <TrueBrain> okay, this needs a bit more fiddling than I was hoping for .. but that might be a nice thing to do, while I wait for freaking cloudfront to destroy itself
20:21:41  <andythenorth> BUT THE CLOUD
20:21:43  <andythenorth> or something
20:21:59  <andythenorth> so TrueBrain I shouldn't move to Docker + Kubernetes at work? o_O
20:22:15  <TrueBrain> Docker, yes
20:22:16  <TrueBrain> Kubernetes, no
20:22:22  <TrueBrain> well, unless you have 10 devops there
20:22:26  <TrueBrain> in that case, go for it
20:22:28  <TrueBrain> send them on training
20:22:30  <TrueBrain> for 2 months
20:22:30  <TrueBrain> plz
20:22:58  <TrueBrain> this cloudfront is "in progress" for over an hour now
20:23:00  <TrueBrain> getting a bit old
20:23:02  <andythenorth> I've been told I can never attact any devops until we're using cool modern tech like k8s
20:23:07  <andythenorth> attract *
20:23:25  <andythenorth> but to use tech like k8s I need devops to look after it, as it is a shitload more work than we do now
20:23:59  <andythenorth> so I need to do a load of work I can't do because I don't have the devs to adopt the cool tech so we can attract devs so we can use more cool tech so we can attract devs
20:24:20  <TrueBrain> something something chicken egg
20:24:23  <andythenorth> otoh, this was recruitment consultant advice
20:24:49  <TrueBrain> too bad you are located in the wrong country; otherwise I would have helped out :P
20:24:54  <frosch123> maybe make software for banks and insurances instead
20:25:00  <andythenorth> I CAN'T AFFORD A TRUEBRAIN
20:25:03  <andythenorth> m
20:25:14  <TrueBrain> okay, I will halve my fee for you
20:25:17  <TrueBrain> if you think that is my fee :P
20:26:02  <andythenorth> zimbabwe dollars?
20:26:03  <andythenorth> o_O
20:27:01  <frosch123> lowercase m is milli already
20:28:19  <glx> just opening the console in main menu slows everything for me
20:28:46  <TrueBrain> pro-tip: don't do that
20:35:26  <andythenorth> oh there's an AI ranking thing in forums
20:35:28  <andythenorth> how rare :)
20:35:30  <TrueBrain> okay, this cloudfront distribution starts to annoy me ...
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21:02:26  <TrueBrain> okay, I really don't like how long this cloudfront takes ... especially as I cannot continue with the rest till it "unbreaks"
21:02:27  <TrueBrain> meh
21:02:38  <TrueBrain> anyway ... if that works, adding docs should be simple :P
21:10:01  <TrueBrain> milek7_:
21:10:02  <TrueBrain> -       if (SaveOrLoad("opntitle.dat", SLO_LOAD, DFT_GAME_FILE, BASESET_DIR) != SL_OK) {
21:10:02  <TrueBrain> +       if (SaveOrLoad("/dev/stdin", SLO_LOAD, DFT_GAME_FILE, BASESET_DIR) != SL_OK) {
21:10:12  <TrueBrain> allows -M / -S :)
21:10:34  <frosch123> haha, the ai ranking site includes all those "idle" ais... funnily they perform differently, and some (non-crashing) ais perform worse
21:10:52  <TrueBrain> frosch123: url?
21:10:58  <frosch123>
21:11:23  <frosch123> <- background
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21:11:58  <TrueBrain> realtime, funny
21:12:34  <frosch123> also ai forks perform worse than their originals. ludiai afterfix is worse than ludiai, nonocab is worse than nocab
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21:16:37  <andythenorth> so do I still need to compile the mac port with timing info?
21:16:52  <andythenorth> or do we have a cause?
21:18:12  <milek7_> TrueBrain: right, i didn't thought of that
21:18:20  <milek7_> how much runs/s you get?
21:18:41  <TrueBrain> 16 runs/s per instance
21:19:08  <TrueBrain> can run like ... 12 or so if I would like to
21:19:16  <TrueBrain> or we can rent an AWS instance for an hour :P
21:19:56  <milek7_> AWS is horribly expensive
21:20:15  <TrueBrain> not too bad if you only need it for an hour :D
21:20:46  <TrueBrain> with stdin the diskio is a lot lower btw, which is nice
21:22:21  <Samu> there is a bug with build dock, it doesn't include the price of clearing the grass of the sloped tile
21:22:30  <Samu> is that intended?
21:23:48  <Samu> or the road, or the trees, or whatever it is there
21:25:10  <Samu> fixing it is easy, but regression will fail, due to price differences
21:25:18  <Samu> should I do a PR?
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21:30:18  <TrueBrain> milek7_: btw, if I would guess, most crashes are caused because the map itself is never validated to be valid after loading .. it is simply assumed all bits are in order
21:30:24  <TrueBrain> so it is not really a surprise it crashes this often
21:30:40  <TrueBrain> should never lead to buffer-overflows etc, ofc
21:31:14  <TrueBrain> (look at map_sl.cpp to get what I mean btw :P)
21:33:36  <milek7_> isn't it a bit tautological? if data would be validated it wouldn't crash, obviously ;P
21:34:39  <TrueBrain> what you say, sure, but that was not what I was saying, was I ? :)
21:35:37  <andythenorth> so...water depth
21:35:48  <andythenorth> will I be designing a 4th ship set? :)
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21:35:55  <frosch123> what is water depth used for?
21:36:29  <Samu> I'm using it to make ships move slow or faster depending on distance to shore (actually depth)
21:36:56  <frosch123> disallow landscaping deep sea?
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21:37:07  <milek7_> though except from afterload migration, it is just loaded and isn't touched much
21:37:26  <TrueBrain> and it is afterload that causes  most of the crashes for me
21:37:28  <milek7_> i guess most crashes from invalid map array will result when it actually starts running
21:37:31  <TrueBrain> (as it starts using the data)
21:37:31  <andythenorth> it could be used to ban ships with low freeboard from deep sea
21:37:41  <andythenorth> and ships with deep draught from shallow water
21:37:43  <Samu> oh, my AI performs worse, because mousetail is testing it with easy preset, which the original didn't care about
21:37:47  <TrueBrain> so indeed, if you run a few ticks, I guess a lot more crashes happen :)
21:37:47  <Samu> frosch123,
21:38:00  <andythenorth> not sure ship differentiation is fun or not yet
21:38:00  <TrueBrain> it is just totally unvalidated data
21:38:09  <TrueBrain> I wonder how difficult it is to validate the data tbh
21:38:20  <TrueBrain> more curious I am, if there are crashes in terms of buffer-overflow etc
21:38:25  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: we need the ability to build deep canals then
21:38:31  <TrueBrain> (as a result of a invalid map data)
21:38:41  <andythenorth> I believe that's a possibility Eddi|zuHause
21:38:47  <andythenorth> if I've understood correctly
21:38:58  <TrueBrain> milek7_: possibly even more interesting is to see what happens with loading of newgrfs
21:39:06  <milek7_> i have seen at least one buffer overflow
21:40:49  <frosch123> andythenorth: maybe 3-tile wide canals are deeper?
21:40:56  <andythenorth> maybe
21:41:08  <andythenorth> unrelated-related: could ships respect drive side?
21:41:15  <andythenorth> I often build 2 tile wide canals
21:41:37  <andythenorth> I don't want colliding ships for gameplay reasons, but it would be nice if they avoided overlapping in simple cases :P
21:42:50  <frosch123> i wonder whether you can control driving side by making path finder cost different for turning left < driving straight < turning right
21:43:38  <frosch123> that may cause the pathfinder to turn left as early as possible, and turn right as late as possible
21:43:58  <frosch123> so taking the inner side on a left curve, and the outer side on a right curve
21:45:29  <frosch123> hmm, i guess the shortest path is still to cut the corner
21:45:34  <andythenorth> OpenTTD Renaisance edition
21:45:39  <Eddi|zuHause> for ships, driving side is on the right, wordlwide
21:45:45  <andythenorth> OpenTTD Revival
21:45:55  <Eddi|zuHause> so you turn right first, and left last
21:46:39  <frosch123> he, i expected ships to be brittish-dominated
21:47:52  <TrueBrain> milek7_: I added an _exit(0) in error(), to catch crashes that we did not pick up on via asserts and not_reached .. takes longer for it to find, but it also finds issues there
21:48:02  <Eddi|zuHause> but i don't think pathfinder costs are the correct way to do this, you want to choose between equivalent paths
21:48:02  <TrueBrain> those are uncaptured issues :)
21:48:39  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: yes, and i assume it will pick the first one found among the equivalent ones
21:48:59  <milek7_>,sig:11,src:000000,op:havoc,rep:4
21:49:08  <milek7_> here's one in linkgraph, for example
21:49:10  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: i think that needs messing in the pathfinder internals
21:50:21  <Eddi|zuHause> but i don't know enough about that
21:50:27  <TrueBrain> milek7_: <- found one in SlList :)
21:51:59  <TrueBrain> okay, there are some interesting crashes in there
21:52:06  <TrueBrain> which give room ... for fun :P
21:52:22  <TrueBrain> malloc_printerr (str=str@entry=0x7ffffef98800 "free(): invalid next size (fast)") at malloc.c:5350
21:53:06  <TrueBrain> uint64 aimed_inflation = (_economy.old_max_loan_unround << 16 | _economy.old_max_loan_unround_fract) / _settings_game.difficulty.max_loan; <- haha, that one is easy to reproduce :D
21:53:08  <TrueBrain> how nasty :)
21:56:30  <TrueBrain> ReadGRFSpriteOffsets (container_version=<error reading variable: access outside bounds of object referenced via synthetic pointer>)
21:56:34  <TrueBrain> also doesn't sound good :P
21:57:37  <andythenorth> ha ha 1969 in game again
21:57:39  <TrueBrain> milek7_: I just hit the same one as you did :)
21:57:44  <andythenorth> time to turn the clock back to 1968
21:58:05  <andythenorth> what if date cheat wasn't a cheat, and player could just click on year to change it :P
21:58:07  <andythenorth> re-framing
21:58:10  <andythenorth> daylength solved
21:58:12  <TrueBrain> milek7_: for some reason that one feels like you can write in random memory :P
21:58:59  <andythenorth> evil-train.grf?
21:59:25  <TrueBrain> these are all: evil-server.ip :P
22:00:00  <TrueBrain> "malloc(): memory corruption"
22:00:01  <TrueBrain> fun :D
22:00:32  <TrueBrain> okay, looking at the crashes that are not caught by our own code are fun ones :)
22:02:25  <milek7_> though release builds have asserts disabled, so they could still end up as memory safety issues when not caught early by assert
22:02:38  <TrueBrain> yup
22:02:50  <milek7_> oh, i didn't know openttd has security page
22:02:54  <milek7_>
22:03:01  <TrueBrain> we even have CVEs :)
22:03:20  <TrueBrain> hmm, the savegame for "timeouts" are not stored by afl? Awh
22:03:30  <frosch123> we stopped having cves when noone fixed them anymore
22:03:41  <milek7_> 'hangs' directory
22:03:44  <TrueBrain> empty
22:05:57  <andythenorth> OpenTTD continues to deliver lolz
22:06:23  <andythenorth> I played since 2008, but I only just tried 'town growth: slow' and 'towns can build roads: no'
22:06:33  <andythenorth> wish I'd done that before, it's a much better game :P
22:07:27  <TrueBrain> okay, that is fun, fuzzing OpenTTD :P
22:07:38  <TrueBrain> solving it, is not trivial
22:07:40  <TrueBrain> which is a bit sad :P
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22:14:01  <peter1138> Just make individual bug reports for everything reported... and then leave it to nobody else to deal with ;)
22:17:26  <andythenorth> oof I play OpenTTD like an idiot :)
22:18:02  <andythenorth> I always look at industry production when assigning vehicles
22:18:12  <andythenorth> instead of industry production * 0.69 or so
22:18:32  <peter1138> Oh yes, I was going to connect to my OpenTTD server and ... well, play.
22:18:33  <peter1138> Maybe.
22:18:44  <andythenorth> OpenTTD is not bad
22:18:50  <andythenorth> I mean it's not WoT Blitz
22:18:59  <andythenorth> positives and negatives :P
22:19:09  <frosch123> s/bad/evil/
22:19:42  <andythenorth> I have played 2 long games, been playing every day since Dec 23rd or so
22:19:56  <andythenorth> not sure how long one of them is, I keep resetting date :P
22:20:56  <peter1138> Oh, there's already people on it. Hmm.
22:21:05  <peter1138> I wonder if the map is any good :p
22:21:44  <peter1138> Hmm, could be worse.
22:22:00  <andythenorth> 1.10 beta 2?
22:27:38  <peter1138> Yar
22:27:50  <peter1138> Lots of water, heh
22:28:25  <andythenorth> peter1138: what's it called? :P
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22:53:07  <TrueBrain> THE START IS THERE
22:53:08  <TrueBrain> OMG
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23:00:05  <Eddi|zuHause> best docs EU West
23:41:52  <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick opened pull request #7937: Build on competitor canal
23:42:33  <Samu> im running out of time... come on, build fast
23:45:12  <Samu> bah, whitespaces.. well tomorrow i'll fix them
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23:47:02  <Samu> faster!!! plz
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23:49:01  <Samu> k cyas
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