Log for #openttd on 15th January 2020:
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00:26:02  <supermop_Home> peter1138 you have a server going?
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04:33:01  <Pikka> yowsa
04:33:07  <Pikka> such windows 10
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07:04:17  <Pikka> o/
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07:04:35  <Pikka> was it something I said?
07:05:16  <peter1138> o
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07:21:47  <andythenorth> moin
07:22:07  <andythenorth> oh it's 1968 again in my game
07:23:59  <Pikka> how did that happen?
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07:24:16  <andythenorth> I used the built in daylength feature
07:24:20  <andythenorth> ctrl-alt-c
07:26:22  <Pikka> fancy
07:26:29  <andythenorth> yup
07:26:52  <Pikka> maybe we should get rid of the "funny" description on that window
07:26:58  <Pikka> it seems to upset some people
07:27:49  <andythenorth> it does
07:27:54  <andythenorth> it inhibits sandbox play
07:35:14  <Pikka> oop, gotta go climb a wall!
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08:01:12  <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick updated pull request #7937: Build on competitor canal
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09:11:11  <peter1138> I... accidentally went to sleep with my client connected to my server ;(
09:19:15  <planetmaker> so... are now many little clients being spawned?
09:54:35  <peter1138> Um
09:54:46  <peter1138> No but it's 2035 or something instead of late 90s :p
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12:34:57  <Pikka> well
12:38:44  <peter1138> That's a hole.
12:43:23  <andythenorth> daylength :P
12:51:48  * LordAro smacks andythenorth
12:51:52  <andythenorth> is it fractal?
12:52:01  * andythenorth reading about transfer leg profits
12:52:03  <andythenorth> JGR
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13:23:52  <andythenorth> I should turn breakdowns on eh
13:37:43  <peter1138> I saladed.
13:37:48  <peter1138> But yes, breakdowns.
13:38:06  <peter1138> Also I'm using default ships in 2040s... I guess breakdowns would be bad.
13:39:04  <andythenorth> breakdowns mess with my buzz :P
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14:07:06  <Samu> what do you think of
14:07:14  <Samu>
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14:25:34  <Samu> oh snap, found NULL's on my code
14:25:38  <Samu> it's old code :8
14:28:57  <andythenorth> oops it's 1973 in my game
14:29:01  * andythenorth turns it back to 1971
14:30:31  <Pikka> why not 1968?
14:31:34  <andythenorth> well
14:31:38  <andythenorth> time has to advance I guess :)
14:31:50  <andythenorth> otherwise I'll never get any super OP trains
14:33:45  * andythenorth has a maths puzzle
14:34:04  <andythenorth> 2 trains, both carry 484t cargo
14:34:31  <andythenorth> one weighs 361t empty and 484t loaded
14:34:42  <andythenorth> 845t loaded *
14:34:52  <andythenorth> @calc 361 + 484
14:34:52  <DorpsGek> andythenorth: 845
14:35:14  <andythenorth> the other weights 352t empty and 646t loaded
14:35:20  <andythenorth> @calc 352 + 646
14:35:21  <DorpsGek> andythenorth: 998
14:35:39  <andythenorth> oof I really needed to sleep
14:35:46  <andythenorth> @calc 352 + 484
14:35:46  <DorpsGek> andythenorth: 836
14:36:16  <andythenorth> anyway, something is wrong with the total weight of the 2nd train, but I had no sleep, and don't trust my eyes :P
14:36:27  <andythenorth> self-inflicted, stayed up too late playing openttd
14:36:32  <planetmaker> ask your kids :)
14:44:12  <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick updated pull request #7937: Build on competitor canal
14:49:43  <Samu> well, is it useful? #7937?
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14:50:18  <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Eddi-z opened pull request #7938: Feature: Setting for a year that repeats forever
14:50:25  <Eddi|zuHause> (untested)
14:52:10  <andythenorth> groundhog year
14:52:40  <Eddi|zuHause> that is the name of the branch :)
14:52:44  <andythenorth> I was wondering what happens if we repeat months or days
14:52:51  <andythenorth> I didn't read industry production code yet though
14:53:02  <Eddi|zuHause> oh, compile failed
14:53:31  <andythenorth> I think I'd want a groundhog threshold
14:53:36  <andythenorth> i.e. repeat n times
14:53:44  <andythenorth> groundhog count
14:53:44  <Eddi|zuHause> i forgot a thing adding the setting, apparently
14:53:57  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: just use the date cheat to move on
14:54:02  <andythenorth> so daylength is solved
14:54:13  <andythenorth> and I've solved cdist by turning town growth to minimal
14:54:36  <andythenorth> did we ever stop towns using magic bulldozer to delete things
14:54:55  <andythenorth> cos magic bulldozer solves most of sandbox mode
14:54:56  <Eddi|zuHause> no idea
14:54:59  <Samu> ah, im not the only one that makes non descript PRs
14:55:10  <andythenorth> just need to solve town ratings, game is finished
14:55:19  <Eddi|zuHause> i need to go out shopping, i was like a minute too late yesterday
14:55:24  <andythenorth> ouch
14:57:48  <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Eddi-z updated pull request #7938: Feature: Setting for a year that repeats forever
14:58:00  <Eddi|zuHause> (still untested)
15:02:22  <Samu> are these errors normal?
15:02:46  <Samu> it still builds, but i get so many errors along the way
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15:12:25  <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Eddi-z updated pull request #7938: Feature: Setting for a year that repeats forever
15:12:36  <Eddi|zuHause> (3rd time is the charm?)
15:12:50  <andythenorth> shops Eddi|zuHause :P
15:12:55  <andythenorth> don't want you going hungry
15:13:02  <Eddi|zuHause> ok, ok...
15:13:16  <Samu> - is this a masterpiece or not really?
15:13:23  <Eddi|zuHause> i wouldn't be going hungry, but i'm out of sugary drinks
15:14:01  <Samu> music video, no actual video though
15:14:43  <FLHerne> Samu: I like the idea of permanent rivers
15:16:12  <Samu> :)
15:16:22  <Samu> if only rivers were actually useful
15:16:26  <Samu> but yeah
15:16:39  <Eddi|zuHause> the next opportunity to go shopping while on the way to somewhere would be in 2 days
15:16:49  <Samu> my lock friendly rivers patch was rejected
15:16:57  <Samu> would combine well with perma rivers
15:19:21  <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick updated pull request #7937: Build on competitor canal
15:19:39  <Samu> cleaning up stuff that didn't belong to this patch
15:20:03  <Samu> you know me, I always pack everything in a single commit
15:20:13  <Samu> i'm deconstructing it
15:21:49  <Samu> a year that repeats forever is a "good idea"
15:22:00  <Samu> if it works as expected
15:27:01  <Samu> i've been wanting to test AIs in a certain era
15:27:16  <Samu> 1975 era, hoping it would last forever 1975
15:27:25  <Samu> for example, i think that patch would come useful
15:32:04  <Samu> i think i forgot documenting object tiles built on canals build on rivers
15:32:36  <Samu> yep, on landscape_grid
15:32:39  <Samu> damn me
15:36:08  <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick updated pull request #7937: Build on competitor canal
15:37:24  <Samu> you know what? locks should be waypoints
15:37:45  <Samu> but that's for another day
15:46:03  <planetmaker> Why should they be waypoints?
15:46:21  <planetmaker> We have buoys as waypoints for water vessels
15:46:59  <planetmaker> when I go from A to B, it doesn't matter whether I use the Eastern or the Western lock in the channel. I use whichever opens first
15:51:51  <Samu> ok
15:51:59  <Samu> [img][/img] - my changes in red
15:52:21  <Samu> red squares
15:52:49  <Samu> at m6 it stores canal owners
15:52:56  <Samu> on those 4 bits
15:53:25  <Samu> should have included shipdepot in the square, but meh...
15:53:58  <Samu> at m8 it stores whether the canal was built on a river
15:56:59  <Samu> i still don't understand what yellow ~ is for
15:57:29  <Samu> ~ - bit is accessed, but does not really have a meaning (e.g. owner of clear land is always OWNER_NONE)
15:58:00  <Samu> hmm.... "k"
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16:59:05  <Samu> nobody says anything?
17:04:30  <andythenorth> daytime traffic is low in irc Samu
17:04:37  <andythenorth> mostly me and you
17:04:40  <andythenorth> and lunch chat
17:04:47  <andythenorth> patience grasshopper
17:15:07  <Samu> assert(depth < WATER_DEPTH_MAX); while testing #7924
17:15:29  <Samu> 15 < 15
17:15:33  <Samu> heh
17:19:43  <Eddi|zuHause> so. i actually was shopping!
17:20:15  <andythenorth> !
17:33:22  <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SJang1 commented on issue #7830: Load font from openttd config file directory, not from working directory.
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17:46:04  <Samu> suddenly "savegame upgrade" pops everywhere
17:46:29  <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh merged pull request #7791: GS method to control engine availability for a specific company
17:46:34  <nielsm> yeah :)
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18:53:10  <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] frosch123 commented on pull request #7938: Feature: Setting for a year that repeats forever
18:55:22  <TrueBrain> I am heavily disappointed only in a comment "groundhog" is mentioned. I vote to rename the variable to GROUNDHOG_YEAR
18:57:16  <frosch123> i never saw that movie
18:57:22  <TrueBrain> :o :o :o
18:57:36  <TrueBrain> I .... am not sure ... how to deal with this
18:59:26  <nielsm>
18:59:46  <TrueBrain> nice!
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19:00:22  <nielsm> but some of the sprites are slightly broken (wrong offset) so it looks wrong :P
19:00:24  <frosch123> hmm, the shading stuff did not work with palette animation, did it?
19:01:19  <frosch123> oh, newgrf water. does it work the same as rivers and canals?
19:02:27  <nielsm> no, I figured doing it with something callback-based would be bad for something that exists in as large quantities as flat water
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19:02:37  <nielsm> and it may as well just be a static table
19:02:53  <nielsm> but there is a new variable for the river/canals callbacks to check depth of the current tile
19:03:02  <nielsm> so they can do things
19:03:09  <frosch123> he, at some point we wanted to do newlandscape :p
19:03:54  <nielsm> that's RCT-style landscape right?
19:04:13  <frosch123> no, callback based ground tiles
19:04:19  <nielsm> :o
19:04:27  <frosch123> you know, more than just water tiles :)
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19:05:05  <crazystacy> hello
19:05:08  <frosch123> it was about adding random bits, doodads, fences, hedges, ...
19:05:30  <crazystacy> i always used to full load everything, and specifically put "unload". but now i don't set anything, just goto A, goto B (let's say coal). but i'm not sure what is most efficient
19:05:55  <crazystacy> let's say it never manages to get a full load, then it's just going back and forth. or if the journey is extremely long. if i load 20% and travel for ages, that can't be good
19:06:04  <crazystacy> i was wondering if anyone had some maths on it
19:06:07  <frosch123> you almost never want to explicitly set "unload"
19:06:18  <crazystacy> i used to think so
19:06:25  <crazystacy> it saved my finger a lot of clickin
19:06:47  <frosch123> the time waiting at the station is included in the delivery speed
19:07:12  <frosch123> so you want the wait-for-full-load not be a significant percentage of the travel time
19:07:43  <frosch123> also there is a intermediate between "full load" and "load any". you can timetable the loading time to "5 days" or similar
19:07:56  <frosch123> (but don't timetable travel times, only loading times)
19:08:48  <crazystacy> i can time table loading? that's ice
19:08:53  <crazystacy> i didn't get as far as timetables yet
19:09:05  <crazystacy> what happens if you timetable travel times? it gives up and skips?
19:09:14  <frosch123> well, it's said to be the only useful application of timetables
19:09:19  <crazystacy> ah
19:09:41  <frosch123> timetabling travel times causes many issues. noone admits to play with that :)
19:09:46  <crazystacy> LOL
19:12:29  <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Phx01 commented on issue #7920: Purchase land tool lacks by-area
19:13:02  * _dp_ never knew timetables had a useful application
19:13:35  <_dp_> well, I guess, I don't considered partial load to be a useful application either :p
19:14:48  <nielsm> interesting, TGP actually did make a steep "cliff" underwater here:
19:15:05  <nielsm> depth 12 to 8
19:15:15  <frosch123> tgp does not know about max slopes
19:15:27  <nielsm> yeah, I know it needs smoothing
19:17:56  <nielsm> except that deepwater does not require smooth gradients, so it's fine here
19:19:20  <frosch123> sell it as realism
19:19:41  <frosch123> does it rerandomise the depth when oilrigs shut down?
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19:21:18  <nielsm> does a circular tile search for nearby water tiles and grabs a depth from that
19:22:09  <frosch123> i was thinking of the coal mine disaster
19:23:12  <andythenorth> we flooding coal mines?
19:23:18  * andythenorth should logs :P
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19:25:59  <frosch123> some firs industries could leave river/lake tiles behind after they close down
19:26:10  <frosch123> except firs industries do not close down, or something :p
19:26:25  <Samu> wow, how do u get graphics working there?
19:26:42  <nielsm> another:
19:27:26  <Samu> all i get is a ? for every water tile
19:27:53  <nielsm> you need a newgrf with water depth sprites
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19:29:31  <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh updated pull request #7924: Feature: Water tiles have a depth
19:30:39  <nielsm> here's two water depth newgrfs:
19:31:29  <Samu> wow :)
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19:32:31  <Samu> thx, gonna test
19:33:02  <andythenorth> is someone setting up an MP game then? o_O
19:33:12  <andythenorth> so we can find out what's broken in 1.10
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19:33:27  <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on pull request #7924: Feature: Water tiles have a depth
19:36:32  <andythenorth> what does clearing water even mean with deep depths? :P
19:36:44  <andythenorth> lots of long discussion there about a possible non thing
19:37:11  <crazystacy> will water depth be added to the game?
19:37:24  <frosch123> andythenorth: <- clearing water
19:37:54  <frosch123> maybe that should be a firs industry, producing plastic
19:38:08  <andythenorth> is that the dutch guy?
19:38:09  <nielsm> andythenorth:
19:38:27  <nielsm> that's without basecosts mod, without inflation, and at low construction costs :)
19:38:27  <andythenorth> nielsm: and if I canalise it?
19:38:33  <crazystacy> nice
19:39:00  <nielsm> that still costs over a million per tile :)
19:39:15  <frosch123> andythenorth: it's some marketing sketch from some 2017 startup. no idea whether that startup still exists
19:39:17  <crazystacy> now they won't grief my boats anymore :D
19:39:31  <nielsm> canals have a max depth of 3 (right now) and converting a deeper tile to canal will require demolishing the water and rebuilding it as canal
19:39:55  <crazystacy> well it's a much nicer startup than Juicero that's for sure
19:40:26  <crazystacy> so there will be some sort of canal tanker? so that i can ferry my oil tanker oil up the river
19:40:32  <andythenorth> frosch123
19:41:15  <nielsm> right now there are no restrictions on how deep or shallow water any boat can sail on
19:41:32  <supermop_work> BUT MY GALLEY WILL SINK
19:41:45  <crazystacy> is it "sail" if it's an oil tanker? :P
19:41:45  <nielsm> all ships can sail on canals and rivers, as long as there are locks built for every elevation change
19:42:00  <andythenorth> oof locks
19:42:02  <nielsm> ships sail even when they have combustion engines :P
19:42:17  <crazystacy> how much sail would a sailboat sail if a sailboat didn't have sails?
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19:42:52  <nielsm> also wow debug build performance is terrible with 32bpp sprites
19:43:05  <nielsm> but only when the game is unpaused
19:43:17  <nielsm> ah, full animation
19:43:32  <crazystacy> i'm trying to manually call NetworkClientConnectGame from the code, but it crashes
19:43:39  <crazystacy> and sometimes it does work O_o
19:44:32  <crazystacy> by manually i mean directly as opposed to through the existing methods like console or gui
19:45:12  <crazystacy> - and the debug output is not meaningful :/
19:45:51  <andythenorth> nielsm: full animation is over
19:45:58  <andythenorth> we should possibly remove it?
19:46:10  <nielsm> choices: build this bridge - or build around the bay - or spend 2 or 4 million on making a series of shorter bridges spanning
19:46:24  <andythenorth> canal cheat of course
19:46:26  <nielsm> (making the islands costs that much)
19:46:30  <andythenorth> build canals, demolish the inner part
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19:46:57  <nielsm> building canals over the deep water still costs the water clearing cost
19:47:09  <nielsm> and demolishing deep canals is still expensive
19:47:29  <andythenorth> no hax :(
19:47:32  <andythenorth> denied
19:47:32  <crazystacy> clear water = purify the ocean at that exact spot
19:47:55  <crazystacy> 57 000 is cheap
19:48:23  <nielsm> 3x3 tiles of canals:
19:48:42  <crazystacy> that looks like a meme waiting to happen
19:48:52  <crazystacy> it just needs a half-transparent face of a crying man in the corner
19:49:17  <andythenorth> reddit will love it
19:50:08  <frosch123> andythenorth: it's only osx that fails with animation, isn't it?
19:50:32  <andythenorth> probably
19:50:44  <andythenorth> there are other reports of slow with no final cause
19:51:03  <nielsm> 32bpp sprites with full animation is also stupid slow on win32 in debug builds, I just discovered, but that's not an issue in itself
19:51:06  <nielsm> (it's a debug build)
19:51:59  <andythenorth> I tried to find the docs for 'not a debug build'
19:52:02  <andythenorth> but I couldn't figure it out
19:52:12  <andythenorth> I even read the build farm stuff on GH, but no light shone
19:52:22  <nielsm> -O2 or -O3 in the CXXFLAGS
19:52:25  <andythenorth> my local compile is ~unusable
19:53:30  <andythenorth> so are these configure flags or make flags?
19:53:34  * andythenorth is clueless sorry
19:54:15  <milek7_> configure
19:54:16  <milek7_> --enable-debug[=LVL]           enable debug-mode (LVL=[0123], 0 is release)
19:55:32  * andythenorth tests
19:56:35  <nielsm> is "water_clearing_cost_power" a good setting name?
19:56:56  <nielsm> depth raised to the n'th power as multiplier for clearing cost
19:57:33  <nielsm> n=0, same clearing cost for any depth, n=1 clearing cost is linear dependency on depth, n=2 clearing cost is squared dependency on depth
19:58:09  <Samu> oh, even toyland water is dark too
19:58:17  <frosch123> water_clearing_cost_exponent
19:58:25  <crazystacy> what difference does --enable-debug=[level] do in configure?
19:58:39  <crazystacy> i set it to 1 and 2 and didn't notice any difference. 3 made my laptop lag to death during building
19:58:47  <crazystacy> i mean it's not the same as openttd -d 1/2/3 right?
19:58:49  <milek7_> water_clearing_cost_exponent?
19:58:58  <nielsm> yeah that's better
19:59:02  <crazystacy> -d [lvl] is for debug logging?
19:59:07  <frosch123> crazystacy: >0 enables debug symbols, higher values disable optimisations
19:59:22  <crazystacy> ok
19:59:39  <andythenorth> so yeah, the official binary runs my savegame stably at 1.02x
19:59:59  <andythenorth> my local build fluctuates same savegame, same date, same map position 0.9-0.95x
20:00:15  <andythenorth> the local build falls on it's knees further and faster as well
20:00:21  <andythenorth> when I go to a busy area of map
20:00:46  <andythenorth> I gave it ./configure --enable-debug=0
20:01:02  <milek7_> it's default anyway
20:01:09  <andythenorth> so something in my libs, or compiler or something is fucked
20:01:11  <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Phx01 opened issue #7939: Feature Request: Moving/Relocating/Offsetting (Certain) Industries
20:01:16  <andythenorth> this will be fun to diagnose :(
20:01:51  <frosch123> andythenorth: i think stable builds add --disable-assert
20:02:20  <nielsm> what setting value names? "original/expensive/very much expensiver"?
20:02:36  <nielsm> or just boring "original/linear/square"?
20:03:08  <crazystacy> "troll/hardmode/avoid ocean"
20:03:15  <nielsm> or maybe "original"/"cost*depth"/"cost*depth*depth"
20:03:19  <frosch123> Influence of water depths on clearing cost: None/linear/quadratic
20:05:04  <frosch123> every game should contain some math. otherwise people are afraid because their moms forbid them to use ctrl+alt+c
20:05:40  <crazystacy> i don't get it
20:05:45  <andythenorth> pikka suggested rewording the cheat menu
20:05:55  <andythenorth> I suggest 'sandbox mode options'
20:05:59  <andythenorth> or just 'have fun!'
20:06:24  <andythenorth> I am very uninterested in any of the original game's restrictions, after this long playing it :P
20:06:44  <frosch123> crazystacy: there are some people who want a "feature" that is already available via the cheat menu. but they refuse to use the cheat menu and instead request that it should be regular game behaviour
20:07:04  <crazystacy> what feature is that?
20:07:10  <frosch123> somehow they are afraid to use "cheats"
20:07:22  <crazystacy> call it "handicap"
20:07:41  <frosch123> recently it was about fast aircraft having extra crash chance on short runways
20:07:54  <crazystacy> oh i saw that. my whole fleet crashed
20:08:14  <crazystacy> i had the smallest airport with that 1500 km/h plane
20:08:15  <_dp_> just move all cheats to settings :p
20:08:23  <andythenorth> I wanted full sandbox mode, but it turns out to be mostly magic bulldozer
20:08:36  <andythenorth> I wanted daylength, but it turns out to be 'reset the year every year'
20:08:44  <crazystacy> daylength?
20:08:48  <nielsm> magic bulldozer and neutered town councils
20:08:52  <andythenorth> _dp_: any idea if magic bulldozer got fixed?
20:09:07  <milek7_> and unlimited money
20:09:08  <andythenorth> it used to be super dangerous to leave on as towns would just delete stuff
20:09:10  <_dp_> andythenorth, you mean for towns? I didn't even know it was broken xD
20:09:18  <frosch123> it was fixed in 0.6
20:09:29  <andythenorth> so towns no longer just destroy arbitrary things? o_O
20:09:36  <crazystacy> that sounds mad
20:09:39  <andythenorth> I have been turning it off in fear
20:09:44  <andythenorth> and then on again
20:09:48  <crazystacy> tbh cities should be decimated
20:09:55  <frosch123> the fix was part of one of my first patches, a side effect of terraform under infrastructure
20:10:00  <crazystacy> make way for the coal
20:10:17  <andythenorth> if we can just nerf local authority, sandbox mode is done
20:10:27  <frosch123> andythenorth: so the issue has been fixed for longer than it ever was a thing :)
20:10:28  <crazystacy> i want a grf which changes passengers to meatbags and disables town councils
20:10:30  <crazystacy> no more humans
20:10:57  <frosch123> issue for 4 years, fixed for 12 years :)
20:11:04  <andythenorth> this is how long rumours persist :P
20:11:07  <andythenorth> bad half-life :P
20:11:29  <andythenorth> well ./configure --enable-debug=0 --disable-assert is running at 0.88x
20:11:32  <andythenorth> this is lolz :)
20:11:47  <milek7_> "Magic bulldozer has some side effects though. As not only you as player gain higher bulldozer rights, also the towns get the ability to remove industries. "
20:11:53  <milek7_> from wiki
20:12:12  <frosch123> just as outdated :)
20:12:38  <frosch123> stuff got removed accidentially by terraforming nearby
20:12:50  <frosch123> but terraforming no longer does that
20:13:56  <nielsm> uh do we have a simple "int power" function?
20:13:59  <nielsm> >_>
20:15:01  <andythenorth> wiki is fixed then?
20:15:03  * andythenorth looks :)
20:15:23  <frosch123> nielsm: unlikely
20:16:12  * andythenorth fixed wiki
20:16:14  <TrueBrain> frosch123: <- is this something you would like to see?
20:16:22  <TrueBrain> any suggestions / additions / changes
20:16:29  <frosch123> nielsm: <- apparently the template can do ints
20:16:31  <TrueBrain> (this would be publishes just after a new master release is created)
20:16:36  <andythenorth> TrueBrain: I love it!
20:16:48  <frosch123> TrueBrain: earlier it only said "hello" :)
20:16:57  <TrueBrain> I know :P That is called developing :)
20:16:58  <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro merged pull request #7936: Fix: [SDL2] sdl driver debug log
20:17:11  <andythenorth> is anything happening to current docs?
20:17:25  <TrueBrain> it will do "poef" if I roll this out :P
20:17:25  <andythenorth> or to ask a better question...
20:17:32  <andythenorth> if it changes can you let me know, so I can update this
20:17:33  <andythenorth> thanks
20:17:36  <frosch123> we should add a proper front page though
20:17:54  <LordAro> TrueBrain: looks good
20:18:03  <Samu> this water depth stuff is so pretty :)
20:18:09  <LordAro> though it would be nice if the doxygen for the game itself was there
20:18:12  <LordAro> as useless as it may be
20:18:17  <TrueBrain> it really really is useless
20:18:23  <TrueBrain> so if you promise me to make it less useless
20:18:25  <TrueBrain> I am willing to add it :P
20:18:47  <TrueBrain> frosch123: yeah, I was thinking the same .. just not sure how yet
20:19:09  <frosch123> by adding a @mainpage in the source?
20:19:17  <TrueBrain> yeah ... I wish it was that easy
20:19:29  <TrueBrain> but what I was thinking: add a dummy page to the website, and curl it into here
20:19:33  <TrueBrain> that might work
20:19:39  <Samu> currently toying with pathfinder + water depth. I'm trying higher pf costs on deeper depths, but the opposite as well
20:19:46  <frosch123> are we talking about different things?
20:19:51  <frosch123> why does @mainpage not work?
20:19:54  <nielsm> frosch123: it looks like the MS stdlib implementation just calls the C pow() function with doubles
20:19:57  <Samu> lower costs on deeper depths vs higher costs on deeper depths
20:20:12  <LordAro> nielsm: ew
20:20:19  <TrueBrain> frosch123: we are talking about different things I guess; no clue what you mean with @mainpage in that case :)
20:20:40  <andythenorth> it was on my list to try and fix
20:20:59  <andythenorth> I just didn't fancy the inevitable PR review cycle, and 10 people with 10 ideas who didn't do anything themselves :)
20:21:12  <LordAro> frosch123 is talking about a doxygen frontpage (to replace the equivalent of
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20:21:29  <TrueBrain> ah, doxygen frontpage :)
20:21:35  <LordAro> presumably TrueBrain is thinking of a front page for
20:21:36  <TrueBrain> I don't like how looks :P
20:21:43  <andythenorth> it's kinda fine
20:21:45  <andythenorth> just old
20:21:54  <andythenorth> it's not unusable or anything
20:22:01  <LordAro> needs more jquery
20:22:06  <TrueBrain> okay, you guys fix the source doxygen, I will add it to docs :)
20:22:17  <Samu> I can see water depth help "guide" the pathfinder to the correct places
20:23:16  <Samu> I envision it can visit more nodes which are closer to land
20:23:24  <Samu> than searching deep into the ocean
20:24:27  <milek7_> nitpick: it's xhtml served with text/html content-type
20:24:39  <frosch123> do you intentionally not use "nogo" and "noai" in the url, in favour of "xyz-scripting"?
20:24:46  <nielsm> Samu: water depth does not necessarily have anything to do with distance to land
20:24:54  <frosch123> because noone says "-scripting" on gs/ai context :)
20:25:20  <Samu> oh, right :( it's not instant :(
20:25:25  <Samu> it's an over time effect
20:25:44  <nielsm> yes and the current erosion might still be too fast
20:25:53  <TrueBrain> damn, source docs is HUGE :P
20:26:06  <TrueBrain> frosch123:
20:26:09  <TrueBrain> I used the lingo used there
20:26:30  <frosch123> how odd :)
20:26:33  <TrueBrain> and gs is "Game Scripting", so .... :P
20:26:46  <TrueBrain>
20:26:50  <frosch123> well, "game script"
20:27:14  <nielsm>  like that?
20:27:18  <TrueBrain> Game API and NoAI API ?
20:27:23  <TrueBrain> (as it is named in Doxygen titles)
20:27:43  <frosch123> the "todo list" is the best part of every doxygen output
20:28:03  <TrueBrain> or how do you refer to noai/nogo these days most often?
20:28:47  <milek7_> something looks off with truetype fonts in ottd
20:28:53  <milek7_> it just looks weird
20:29:39  <glx> double/quad GUI zoom ?
20:30:34  <TrueBrain>
20:30:36  <TrueBrain> any preference?
20:30:43  <frosch123> TrueBrain: "AI API" and "Game API" sounds fine
20:30:56  <nielsm> I prefer just "AI" and "GS"
20:30:56  <TrueBrain> (I have to fix the "index.html" part btw, but this needs an Lambda@Edge .. need to read up on that :P)
20:31:16  <frosch123> "ai" and "gs" would match the class prefix
20:31:22  <nielsm> that the features were called "noai" and "nogo" during development is a weird artifact I don't think is important for those urls
20:31:38  <TrueBrain> so ai-api/ and gs-api/ ?
20:31:41  <frosch123> and you do not have to worry about space/dash/underscore in front of api :)
20:31:42  <nielsm> yeah
20:32:53  <frosch123> nielsm: "OpenTTD NoAI API" is the title of the doxygen page :)
20:33:03  <TrueBrain> <- like this?
20:33:07  <TrueBrain> so fix the Doxygen :)
20:33:33  <TrueBrain> it also reads "Game API"
20:33:42  <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh updated pull request #7924: Feature: Water tiles have a depth
20:33:48  <frosch123> nielsm: it looks like gcc inlines pow when the exponent is known, otherwise it calls the c function
20:34:50  <frosch123> TrueBrain: urls are fine. i am not sure whether it needs the "docs" front page
20:35:03  <frosch123> the subpages could be linked directly from the website
20:35:22  <TrueBrain> yeah, but people tend to try the root domain too
20:35:29  <TrueBrain> so if it doesn't hurt, it is fine, I guess :)
20:35:36  <nielsm> frosch123: but I want a function that does not invoke floating point
20:35:36  <frosch123> well, the this basic layout is fine
20:35:51  <TrueBrain> basically, we never direct to directly, indeed
20:35:55  <TrueBrain> but always to the subfolders :)
20:36:07  <TrueBrain> I will also redirect noai... to the right folder
20:36:28  <TrueBrain> if it helps, I can also attach "" to it?
20:36:34  <TrueBrain> not sure that helps :D
20:36:59  <frosch123> nielsm: "pow(num,2)" is optimised to "mulsd", "pow(num 3)" results in a call
20:37:14  <TrueBrain> I hate it doesn't mention anywhere on what version it is based .. that is just bad
20:37:37  <frosch123> oh wait, it uses the xmm registers
20:39:06  <TrueBrain> I wonder if we can change Doxygen to add the version in the footer ..
20:39:12  <frosch123> TrueBrain: doxygen has a timestamp of the gernation
20:39:46  <frosch123> oh, it doesn't in our layout....
20:40:06  <frosch123> well, i am pretty sure i have seen that, so it should be possible
20:40:13  <TrueBrain> I agree :)
20:41:21  <frosch123> yeah, there is $datetime
20:41:55  <TrueBrain> means we need to make a footer html file, I guess
20:43:09  <TrueBrain> and if we do that, we might as well add the exact OpenTTD version it was build for in there
20:43:38  <frosch123> then you need an additional builtstep
20:43:59  <frosch123> datetime can be added with static source and doxygen
20:44:04  <frosch123> but doxygen does not know git hashes
20:44:35  <TrueBrain> but the docs-builder does
20:44:42  <TrueBrain> and doxygen can use env-variables :)
20:45:01  <TrueBrain> so I think we can simply do both
20:45:24  <TrueBrain> if you disagree that would be best, let me know :)
20:46:45  <Samu> testing extreme penalties that basically just tells ships to walk near coasts
20:46:54  <Samu> it's funny
20:48:07  <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on issue #7939: Feature Request: Moving/Relocating/Offsetting (Certain) Industries
20:48:36  <frosch123> TrueBrain: apparently doxygen has a PROJECT_NUMBER variable for that
20:49:10  <frosch123> though that is set in Doxyfile
20:49:31  <TrueBrain> which can accept env-variables :)
20:49:34  <TrueBrain> so that is fine for me
20:50:00  <frosch123> oh, did not know that
20:50:12  <frosch123> so, then it is probably the intended method to do that
20:51:49  <TrueBrain> lets test that out :)
20:52:26  <Samu> have a gamescript "move" the industry for u
20:52:37  <frosch123> why do we generate a tag file ...
20:53:25  <TrueBrain> bit ugly in the title, the project number .. but .. I guess it is exactly what we need
20:55:20  <TrueBrain>
20:56:19  <andythenorth> seems good
20:56:47  <Samu> moving an industry to the left 1 tile
20:56:55  <Samu> how doable is that in code? :o
20:57:09  <nielsm> difficult
20:58:29  <Samu> even if it's a water tower
20:58:29  <nielsm> you need to remove all the industry tiles, then place them again at the new location while doing all checks for being valid at the new location, and if those fail you need to make sure the industry is put back
20:58:40  <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain opened pull request #7940: Add: [Doxygen] Add the current version of documentation in header
20:58:42  <nielsm> yeah town industries are probably worse
20:58:53  <nielsm> since they need to replace houses to build
20:59:25  <Samu> i'd just build a new industry, remove the older one, and call it "moved"
21:00:33  <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/CompileFarm] TrueBrain opened pull request #41: Add: [release-docs] tell Doxygen about the version we are creating
21:00:59  <Samu> i wish there was a way to pathfind from every tile to every tile and tell the success rate
21:01:09  <Samu> just a testing mode
21:02:38  <Samu> 1 million search nodes
21:02:47  <Samu> is it enough for 4kx4k maps?
21:03:16  <Wolf01> ha!
21:04:40  <nielsm> - implemented in one or more places in OTTD already
21:05:20  <nielsm> (single-source shortest paths algorithm, from a single tile find the shortest path to any other reachable tile)
21:05:32  <nielsm> (and you'd have to repeat it for every source tile you're interested in)
21:05:53  <TrueBrain> okay, I have most of the code ready to put these "docs" in production .. but that is something for another day :)
21:07:07  <nielsm> the A* algorithm implemented for NPF is a modified Dijkstra that uses heuristics to try more likely edges first
21:07:44  <nielsm> well, A* is single-pair shortest path, it requires a fixed destination too
21:07:59  <Samu> i wonder wether pathfinding could be multi-threaded, because apparently it already waits for the result
21:08:01  <nielsm> it's been a while since I looked at this
21:08:01  <andythenorth> so who's writing the dev blog post then? o_O
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21:18:12  <Samu> looks like it can't
21:18:42  <nielsm> multithreaded pathfinding is problematic
21:19:30  <nielsm> you'll end up doing duplicate work if you try putting multiple threads to work on the same vehicle, and splitting up relatively short jobs like that is usually not efficient either
21:20:04  <nielsm> you can't pathfind multiple land vehicles in parallel, since the path of one can affect the path another one must choose, and then you end up with non-determinism
21:20:57  <nielsm> if you accept locking yourself out of ever having ships depend on each others' paths (like ships avoiding other ships) then you could pathfind multiple ships in parallel
21:21:04  <andythenorth> so daylength 1.5 seems about right
21:21:07  <andythenorth> so 18 months / year
21:21:21  <andythenorth> :P
21:21:38  <Samu> just increase the number of months
21:21:46  <Samu> or the number of days
21:21:48  <Samu> :p
21:22:14  <Samu> january will now have 90 days
21:22:18  <Samu> j/k
21:22:25  <nielsm> you could probably also run pathfinding of all land vehicles in parallel with pathfinding of all ships, i.e. two parallel threads, sine they should never interfere
21:22:32  <andythenorth> switch from RL dates to 'elapsed years'
21:23:21  <Samu> i still don't know how to make threads
21:23:51  <nielsm> but doing that would still mean having to split vehicle ticks up in pathfinding and "doing other things", since vehicle ticks also involve some of the station loading/unloading logic iirc, and you still want the order vehicles process loading/unloading in to be deterministic
21:24:08  <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] frosch123 approved pull request #7940: Add: [Doxygen] Add the current version of documentation in header
21:25:05  <frosch123> i never know whether the "ENV=foo binary" syntax is proper shell
21:25:17  <frosch123> i always use "env ENV=foo binary"
21:26:23  <andythenorth> oof is it bedtime?
21:26:26  <andythenorth> today seems long :P
21:26:34  <Samu> with multiple docking points now
21:26:41  <Samu> it may interfere
21:26:45  <Samu> I dunnot
21:27:05  <nielsm> sleep sounds like a good plan
21:27:17  <Samu> rip multithreading opentttd
21:27:19  <nielsm> gn
21:28:36  <Samu> anyway back to my depth/pathfind tests
21:29:00  <Samu> gonna start taking notes
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21:39:18  <Samu> oh :( it's actually worse than i thought
21:40:03  <Samu> searches more nodes with the different costs values per depth
21:40:16  <Samu> i expected it to search less
21:41:20  <Samu> well, it walks more tiles, so maybe it's expected? must think
21:46:44  <Samu> 57435 <-> 31768 unchanged
21:46:44  <Samu> 83024 <-> 56269 cheaper costs on deeper water
21:46:44  <Samu> 63820 <-> 38350 cheaper costs on shallower water
21:47:11  <Samu> going from A to B, then B to A, the number of search nodes
21:48:20  <Samu> I am disappointed with myself, I honestly expected it to search with less nodes
21:48:30  <Samu> search less
21:49:15  <Samu> especially disappointed with shallower water results
21:59:38  <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Eddi-z commented on pull request #7938: Feature: Setting for a year that repeats forever
22:07:20  <TrueBrain> frosch123: they both work; with the letter, an extra process is started
22:07:27  <TrueBrain> not sure if there is much more difference besides that
22:07:41  <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain merged pull request #7940: Add: [Doxygen] Add the current version of documentation in header
22:08:20  <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/CompileFarm] frosch123 approved pull request #41: Add: [release-docs] tell Doxygen about the version we are creating
22:08:37  <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/CompileFarm] TrueBrain merged pull request #41: Add: [release-docs] tell Doxygen about the version we are creating
22:08:38  <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/CompileFarm] TrueBrain pushed 1 commits to master
22:08:38  <DorpsGek_III_>   - Add: [release-docs] tell Doxygen about the version we are creating (#41) (by TrueBrain)
22:08:51  <TrueBrain> cheers
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22:32:48  <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] esigra opened issue #7941: train pathfinder acts as if station exits had built-in signals
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