Log for #openttd on 20th January 2020:
Times are UTC Toggle Colours
00:02:02  *** Samu has quit IRC
00:09:54  <rptr> kill planes
00:10:00  <rptr> make an ai to grief all plane users :D
00:10:12  <rptr> planes are so "OP" while boats suck :( poor boats
00:13:09  <supermop_Home> boats are for making your map look pretty
00:16:31  *** Flygon has joined #openttd
00:23:39  <rptr> please respect boats.
00:29:07  <hythlodaeus> boats are even gonna suck more once depth gets implemented
00:29:29  <hythlodaeus> which is why it is also a good opportunity to rebalance them
00:37:21  <rptr> depth is coming
00:48:08  <supermop_Home> boats have the advantage of unlimited scaling of capacity per tile
00:48:38  <hythlodaeus> what?
00:49:01  <supermop_Home> unlike trains, they cannot crash
00:49:33  <supermop_Home> so a 1 tile wide canal between two points can carry as many boats as you care to build
00:50:19  <supermop_Home> whereas a train service would need at least two tracks, stations, and still need at lead some headway gap between trains
00:50:48  *** hythlodaeus has quit IRC
00:50:53  <supermop_Home> and planes need a slot in the landing pattern
00:52:52  <supermop_Home> but a canal can carry as many boats as your cpu can handle
00:53:48  <dwfreed> sounds like a bug in boats, imo
01:01:26  <rptr> not a bug, presumably it's for performance reasons
01:09:32  *** Thedarkb has quit IRC
01:23:48  *** tokai|noir has joined #openttd
01:23:48  *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai|noir
01:30:43  *** tokai has quit IRC
01:57:37  *** Thedarkb has joined #openttd
02:33:42  *** Thedarkb has quit IRC
02:45:00  *** glx has quit IRC
03:07:13  *** debdog has joined #openttd
03:09:35  *** Pikka has joined #openttd
03:10:37  *** D-HUND has quit IRC
04:11:51  *** tokai has joined #openttd
04:11:51  *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai
04:18:42  *** tokai|noir has quit IRC
04:44:52  *** WormnestAndroid has quit IRC
04:44:58  *** WormnestAndroid has joined #openttd
05:16:37  *** WormnestAndroid has quit IRC
05:18:00  *** WormnestAndroid has joined #openttd
05:27:14  *** tokai|noir has joined #openttd
05:27:14  *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai|noir
05:34:08  *** tokai has quit IRC
05:52:33  *** tokai has joined #openttd
05:52:33  *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai
05:55:32  *** Compu has joined #openttd
05:59:27  *** tokai|noir has quit IRC
06:24:57  *** snail_UES_ has quit IRC
07:24:00  *** snail_UES_ has joined #openttd
07:24:40  *** agentsmith101 has joined #openttd
07:41:29  *** andythenorth has joined #openttd
07:46:07  *** snail_UES_ has quit IRC
07:55:13  *** supermop_Home has quit IRC
08:05:27  <andythenorth> o/
08:06:35  <Pikka> o/
08:10:55  <andythenorth> so weathered wagons? o_O
08:10:59  * andythenorth thinks probs not?
08:11:39  <Pikka> probs
08:12:10  <andythenorth> random, or over time? :P
08:14:59  <andythenorth> question arises while deciding what colour wagons like this are :P
08:15:33  *** berndj has joined #openttd
08:16:21  *** berndj-blackout has quit IRC
08:29:30  <Pikka> oh
08:29:38  <Pikka> I meant "probs probs not" :)
08:30:17  <Pikka> a little bit of colour variation is nice, expecially in grey metal
08:30:23  <Pikka> much easier to do in 32bpp ;)
08:34:41  * andythenorth does 'not'
08:35:01  <andythenorth> want to finish this version someday :P
09:00:42  *** Wormnest__ has joined #openttd
09:01:20  *** andythenorth_ has joined #openttd
09:01:20  *** andythenorth is now known as Guest14128
09:01:20  *** andythenorth_ is now known as andythenorth
09:05:22  *** Guest14128 has quit IRC
09:13:13  <peter1138> Good morning.
09:13:19  <peter1138> Weathering, yes.
09:14:07  *** snail_UES_ has joined #openttd
09:17:47  <andythenorth> yes, don't do it, silly idea? o_O
09:18:42  *** Thedarkb has joined #openttd
09:19:43  <andythenorth> right BBLs
09:19:44  *** andythenorth has quit IRC
09:30:05  *** Thedarkb has quit IRC
09:32:48  *** snail_UES_ has quit IRC
09:39:06  *** Samu has joined #openttd
09:53:18  *** Wormnest__ has quit IRC
09:54:12  *** gnu_jj has quit IRC
10:07:18  *** gnu_jj has joined #openttd
10:10:54  *** snail_UES_ has joined #openttd
10:15:47  *** gnu_jj has quit IRC
10:16:18  *** andythenorth has joined #openttd
10:22:04  *** Xaroth has quit IRC
10:26:27  *** snail_UES_ has quit IRC
10:34:44  *** Smedles_ has joined #openttd
10:37:52  *** Smedles has quit IRC
10:45:45  <peter1138> Am I hungry?
10:46:33  <LordAro> probably
10:46:54  <peter1138> Mmm, I skipped breakfast again because I wasn't, mostly because I just grazed ALL WEEKEND :(
10:47:03  <peter1138> I'm literally 4 kg heaiver...
10:47:24  <peter1138> Hmm, did we 'fix' the restarting a savegame password issue?
10:47:57  <peter1138> I'm gonna go with no.
10:59:18  *** gnu_jj has joined #openttd
11:05:15  *** snail_UES_ has joined #openttd
11:20:17  *** snail_UES_ has quit IRC
11:37:36  *** Xaroth has joined #openttd
11:37:52  *** WormnestAndroid has quit IRC
11:38:05  *** WormnestAndroid has joined #openttd
12:01:07  *** snail_UES_ has joined #openttd
12:16:07  *** snail_UES_ has quit IRC
12:32:12  <Pikka>
12:32:28  <Pikka> such ductavi
12:36:44  <peter1138> Such bridge height deception.
12:38:21  <LordAro> the rail fences *almost* work
12:52:58  <Pikka> so many things *almost* work with OTTD's landscape sprites :)
12:56:56  *** snail_UES_ has joined #openttd
12:58:42  *** hythlodaeus has joined #openttd
13:10:57  *** snail_UES_ has quit IRC
13:18:08  <hythlodaeus> Hi guys, I need a native English UK speaker who would be willing to act as a reviewer for PR #7870. I want to improve the quality of text style and writing for menus and tooltips, but I first need to have standards agreed on how to proceed before making further changes
13:19:06  <hythlodaeus> This PR can only be properly be reviewed until a set of textual guidelines is agreed on and then all modified lines are proofread
13:19:50  <hythlodaeus> so it would be nice to have a native speaker to help supervise this process
13:22:50  <LordAro> hythlodaeus: i am still of the opinion that the PR needs splitting up into separate commits
13:23:22  <LordAro> i know this results in a lot of "extra" work, but ultimately makes the whole thing much easier to review and reason about
13:23:35  <LordAro> currently it's just a massive blob of changes that no one is going to touch
13:24:17  <hythlodaeus> LordAro, I must disagree, and the reasons were elaborated. It would cause many conflicting versions of the same document and force an excruciatingly long debate on every single style change
13:24:27  <hythlodaeus> It only seems like a massive blob
13:24:32  <hythlodaeus> it's pure text
13:24:52  <hythlodaeus> once a style guide is agreed upon, it will take 2 hours max to review everything
13:24:58  <hythlodaeus> maybe less
13:24:59  <LordAro> conflicting versions?
13:25:20  <LordAro> each *type* of change has a single commit, building on the previous change
13:25:35  <LordAro> still only 1 PR, and one resulting file
13:26:24  <hythlodaeus> Ok, but wouldn't it be much better to come up with a style guide instead?
13:26:39  <hythlodaeus> because then one would have to make an even larger amount of edits
13:27:26  <hythlodaeus> consider the following: one decides beforehand how capitalization will go, how titles will go, how button text will go
13:27:37  <hythlodaeus> without being necessary any extra commits for that
13:27:41  <andythenorth> cheese toastie
13:27:46  <andythenorth> jarlsberg
13:28:23  <hythlodaeus> and once all of these is agreed, changes can then be performed in a single commit along with the rewrites I've already done
13:29:48  <hythlodaeus> If I make one commit for capitalization, one commit for titles, one commit button text, etc, one will have to spend a huge and confusing amount of time going back and forth, in a labyrinth of comments until any consensus is agreed
13:30:09  <LordAro> i don't think that's true
13:30:14  <hythlodaeus> why not
13:30:41  <LordAro> no one will spend any real time looking at the intermediate files, and it should be relatively easy to remove/change an intermediate commit out with another, or remove it entirely
13:31:04  *** agentsmith101 has quit IRC
13:31:14  <hythlodaeus> then again, what would be the point for it?
13:31:46  <LordAro> preserving the history of why something was changed/added/removed
13:31:59  <LordAro> we do not want the equivalent of "Change: Some strings"
13:32:30  <hythlodaeus> if that's the sole reason, there are other ways to do that, in this case, that is why I would prefer agreeing on a style guide
13:32:56  <hythlodaeus> a style guide doc could be written, and submitted as documentation
13:33:11  <hythlodaeus> and all changes would be performed based on it
13:33:21  <LordAro> you're right, it would be better to decide on something beforehand
13:33:34  <LordAro> but i would say you need to do the above anyway
13:33:41  <LordAro> so in the meantime...
13:34:06  <hythlodaeus> frankly I'm still learning git, and glx is already tired of me asking him questions :p
13:35:08  <LordAro> that's fine, no one was born knowing how to do this stuff :p
13:36:59  <hythlodaeus> frankly agreeing on a style guide would be a first step. as of this moment the changes I've made were based on personal preferences of some people around here
13:37:18  <hythlodaeus> what I would like to know next is how could this be agreed upon and where it would be submitted to
13:37:33  <hythlodaeus> i'm not sure if a style guide would sit well on the code
13:37:47  <LordAro> something in the docs dir would be fine
13:38:39  <LordAro> but yes, perhaps that's the better idea - a PR adding a string style guide, then updating the strings themselves can follow on from that
13:39:48  <hythlodaeus> Ok, thank you
13:40:31  <peter1138> I breakfast-lunched. I guess that's brunch? I dunno. It was, uh, salad, not a fry up.
13:40:35  <hythlodaeus> I would then like to know your opinion (from everyone here) on a small number of things
13:44:09  <hythlodaeus> on the matter of tooltip titles, I went through pretty every tooltip in the game, and the most recurring pattern, although not universal, is that only icon-based buttons that either have a description or a list of Ctrl+ commands have a separate title
13:44:35  <hythlodaeus> for example the tooltips for signal types
13:44:50  <hythlodaeus> *train signal
13:46:31  <hythlodaeus> I would like to ask what you think of my following proposition: all icon-based buttons with a description or Ctrl+ command list will require a title separate by a colons and a paragraph break
13:46:46  <hythlodaeus> I will exemplify:
13:50:43  *** snail_UES_ has joined #openttd
13:51:25  <LordAro> hythlodaeus: please put it in the issue
13:51:31  <LordAro> everything here is ephemeral
13:51:37  <LordAro> it will get forgotten
13:51:43  <hythlodaeus> I will also do it, yes
13:51:48  <hythlodaeus> thank you for the note
13:54:37  <hythlodaeus>
13:54:55  <hythlodaeus> three examples of tooltips that need a separate title vs three that don't
13:55:35  *** agentsmith101 has joined #openttd
13:55:43  <hythlodaeus> essentially if the button is an icon and there is a need for a description of some sort, title + colons + paragraph will be added
13:59:32  <hythlodaeus> but if for example, the button is text based (non-icon) then it does not need a separate title, because it is already technically in the button itself
13:59:39  <hythlodaeus> does this make sense to you?
14:05:24  *** Flygon has quit IRC
14:05:52  *** snail_UES_ has quit IRC
14:24:06  <FLHerne> hythlodaeus: It does to me at least
14:29:41  *** supermop_work has joined #openttd
14:46:20  *** snail_UES_ has joined #openttd
15:00:42  *** snail_UES_ has quit IRC
15:02:13  <hythlodaeus> ok, so the second example is the following
15:03:32  <hythlodaeus> For tooltips on lists: a title + colons + paragraph is only added if there is no relevant title to the list or list column
15:03:37  <hythlodaeus>
15:04:20  <hythlodaeus> so for example, because there are no column titles on the left, the tooltips require a title to better illustrate what each column does
15:05:18  <hythlodaeus> the right example does have proper column titles above (Trains owned/Trains available) so it does not require a title on the tooltip
15:05:23  <hythlodaeus> does this make sense?
15:39:04  *** tokai|noir has joined #openttd
15:39:04  *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai|noir
15:40:34  *** snail_UES_ has joined #openttd
15:45:39  <hythlodaeus> LordAro: I could create a PR as soon as I have a workable version for what I would consider a sane style guide, or I could first open an issue first and propose rules for discussion. which would you prefer?
15:45:52  *** tokai has quit IRC
15:49:31  *** tokai has joined #openttd
15:49:31  *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai
15:52:14  <andythenorth> peter1138: sometimes I like to have a salad, but in bread, with bacon
15:52:21  <andythenorth> not too often mind you
15:56:08  *** snail_UES_ has quit IRC
15:56:22  *** tokai|noir has quit IRC
15:56:55  <LordAro> hythlodaeus: if you've actually got something to show, probably best as a PR
16:07:20  *** snail_UES_ has joined #openttd
16:07:30  *** sla_ro|master has joined #openttd
16:13:46  *** tokai|noir has joined #openttd
16:13:46  *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai|noir
16:17:57  *** Wormnest__ has joined #openttd
16:20:47  *** tokai has quit IRC
16:23:27  *** nielsm has joined #openttd
16:23:47  <snail_UES_> happy MLK day all
16:26:31  *** nielsm has quit IRC
16:27:57  <hythlodaeus> happy mlk day. had no idea it was today
16:28:16  *** nielsm has joined #openttd
16:32:09  *** Pikka has quit IRC
16:34:31  *** spnda has joined #openttd
16:34:47  <spnda> Is there some basic GRF NFO code somewhere? Or a tutorial?
16:36:50  <andythenorth> can't see one here
16:37:09  <andythenorth> maybe this?
16:37:34  <spnda> I seem to mistyped something in the url, thanks, I'll check there
16:40:02  <peter1138> Yes, bread.
16:40:06  <peter1138> I rarely eat bread.
16:40:11  <peter1138> These days, anyway./
16:43:27  <supermop_work> i had noidea i had to go to work today until 1:30 am
16:48:22  <peter1138> Oops?
16:48:39  <peter1138> I was binge-watching (and eating while at it :() Netflix...
16:49:58  <spnda> "NFO file missing header lines and version info" what does this mean?`
16:50:23  * andythenorth looks
16:50:40  <andythenorth> do you want some sample nfo? o_O
16:51:10  <spnda> I got some from a station set but I can't get it to work. I'd guess it'd sure help if I had multiple examples.
16:52:12  <andythenorth>
16:52:18  <andythenorth> full Iron Horse
16:52:37  <andythenorth> Iron Horse is python -> nml -> nfo
16:52:56  <andythenorth> you can compile the nfo, or the nml there for comparison
16:53:08  <Eddi|zuHause> spnda: that's about the three lines at the top startibg with //
16:53:10  <spnda> So I guess you just do "grfcodec -e iron-horse.grf"
16:53:16  <andythenorth> spnda: yes
16:53:21  <spnda> Oh those comments... Kinda thought so
16:53:26  <andythenorth> give or take wrangling the paths
16:54:31  <andythenorth> I do grfcodec -e iron-horse.grf generated
16:55:28  <spnda> Ok yeah that atleast nearly compiles. Only misses a png file
16:55:36  <andythenorth> spnda: you probably know this, but you can also generate nfo from any given nml file
16:56:13  <nielsm> and you can disassemble any GRF back to NFO
17:00:18  <spnda> well, yay it shows up ingame
17:07:31  <spnda> What does "7 * 14     00 04 03 01 00" mean? I see it's a Action0 for feature 4 but I am not sure about the rest...
17:09:57  <andythenorth> I'd have to look it up :)
17:10:05  <andythenorth> it will be count of following bytes and stuff
17:11:11  <andythenorth>
17:12:02  <andythenorth> sprite num 7 * length action0 stations 3props 01info 00id
17:12:29  <andythenorth> so it's changing 3 props for station 0
17:12:38  <spnda> ah ok, and the info and id?
17:12:53  <andythenorth> how many stations to change
17:12:57  <andythenorth> and the id of the station to change
17:13:12  <spnda> Ah ok that makes sense. Thanks very much!
17:13:14  <andythenorth> (the ID of the first station)
17:13:26  <andythenorth> oof, I used to write this by hand :P
17:13:29  <andythenorth> many years ago
17:23:48  <rptr> how are your trains andy
17:24:19  *** Progman has joined #openttd
17:25:25  <andythenorth> not drawn
17:36:06  <nielsm> hax!
17:36:26  <nielsm> got transport tycoon (with world editor) running with FM music again
17:36:43  <SpComb> FM as opposed to AM?
17:36:46  <nielsm> via the opl3lpt device :P so it's a genuine OPL3 but not quite as originally used
17:36:59  <nielsm> FM synthesis
17:42:06  *** HerzogDeXtEr has joined #openttd
17:59:41  <Eddi|zuHause> i've never heard of AM synthesis
18:10:39  <nielsm> I think that's sort of additive synth? it's just never called that
18:11:51  <nielsm> also woo mt32 version of the soundtrack playing through genuine mpu401 output, instead of dosbox emulated to a windows midi device
18:12:01  *** HerzogDeXtEr has quit IRC
18:12:05  <nielsm> except, it's still sort of emulated since I'm running the game via windows me..........
18:12:44  <Samu> openttd just closed itself without warning
18:12:47  <Samu> :(
18:13:17  *** andythenorth has quit IRC
18:13:21  <Samu> looks like memory limitation isn't enough
18:15:39  <nielsm> (I still need to patch to work around the stupid ra-50 missing "all notes off" support)
18:24:12  *** Wolf01 has joined #openttd
18:31:55  *** glx has joined #openttd
18:31:55  *** ChanServ sets mode: +v glx
18:49:30  *** andythenorth has joined #openttd
19:08:00  <rptr> Pikka?
19:08:14  <rptr> any AI-writers present?
19:11:01  <Wolf01> I'm still writing mine.. I'm stuck at "hello world"
19:23:36  <Samu> i wrote an ai but not from scratch
19:24:46  <spnda> Is there any more information instead of just "Attempt to use invalid ID (sprite 2)"?
19:25:07  <andythenorth> from grfcodec?
19:25:13  <spnda> no, from OpenTTD
19:25:45  <andythenorth> there are more verbose debug modes, not sure if it makes newgrf more verbose tho
19:26:05  <nielsm> you can enable debuglevel grf=2 to get spammed a lot
19:26:09  <andythenorth>
19:28:53  <spnda> nielsm: is that in openttd.cfg?
19:29:04  <nielsm> commandline or in the in-game console
19:29:07  <nielsm> usually
19:30:33  <spnda> Not sure how
19:31:37  <nielsm> in the ingame console: debuglevel grf=2
19:31:45  <spnda> ok ive done that, what now?
19:31:56  <nielsm> actually... which OS are you on?
19:32:05  <spnda> windows
19:32:32  <nielsm> hmm, not sure you get any output then, I don't think the console window opens if you enable debug after starting the game
19:33:14  <nielsm> right forget that, make a new shortcut to openttd.exe, edit the shortcut, to the end of the "target" field add: -d grf=2
19:33:55  <nielsm> (with a space before the -d and outside any quotes around the path to the exe file)
19:34:50  <spnda> oh heck my console is being SPAMMED
19:34:52  <spnda> thanks tho
19:34:56  <nielsm> yes :3
19:35:29  <nielsm> it can be a good idea to empty out your newgrf folder if you want to work on your own thing and have debug output
19:36:56  <nielsm> for development I have two sets of newgrf and content_download folders I alternate between, one set is full of all kinds of dependencies, the other set is mostly empty
19:36:59  <spnda> I have one GRF loaded right now
19:37:05  <nielsm> the empty set helps a lot on startup time and debug spam
19:37:06  <spnda> I don't see any errors though.. hmm
19:37:17  <nielsm> the full set is needed to debug all kinds of savegames
19:38:44  <spnda> Anything I should look for in this debug log?
19:39:42  <nielsm> it's probably most interesting to see what it thinks of your action2 and action1, if it's attempting to pick a wrong/invalid sprite for something
19:40:04  <nielsm> oh... wait no I read your error message wrong
19:40:18  <nielsm> "attempt to use invalid ID" that's an action 0 probably
19:40:22  <spnda> It is, yes
19:40:50  <spnda> It's "2 * 14 00 14 02 01 00 08 "TRSP" 09 01"
19:41:03  <spnda> Idk, is my sprite length maybe wrong?
19:41:31  <nielsm> uh... feature 14 ?
19:41:35  <nielsm> there is no feature 14
19:41:40  <spnda> well, soon:tm:
19:42:50  <nielsm> the id there is 00 (after 02 01) but since I don't know what it's supposed to be I can't know any more
19:44:42  <spnda> Aren't the "02 01 00" just basic identifiers, like "amount property id".
19:45:56  <nielsm> 2 properties for 1 id, the first id to change properties for is 0
19:46:31  <nielsm> and if it's saying "invalid id" that's probably the 0 that's invalid
19:47:20  <nielsm> unless it's the property 09 that probably sets which original ID to override?
19:47:30  <nielsm> the 01 there could be the invalid ID
19:47:55  <nielsm> also are you sure property 08 takes a fourcc code and not a numeric id?
19:48:15  <spnda> property 08 is supposed to be a DWord
19:49:43  <nielsm> at that point I'd be hooking a debugger up to a debug build of ottd and trace through the newgrf loader, see what it's doing
19:51:49  <nielsm> especially if it's an experimental new feature
20:08:51  * andythenorth such pixels
20:10:56  <spnda> Is there maybe something I *need* to define other than Action0?
20:11:11  <spnda> I haven't defined handlers for Action1/2 yet and also haven't added them into the NFO file
20:11:40  <Eddi|zuHause> spnda: tried feeding it through nforenum?
20:12:00  <spnda> Eddi|zuHause: well that's going to complain on feature 14, isn't it?
20:12:55  <spnda> Yeah, I think it did. Got a linter error on sprite 2-4
20:16:33  *** WormnestAndroid has quit IRC
20:17:15  *** WormnestAndroid has joined #openttd
20:20:15  <spnda> Ok actually I had a typo and was always returning CIR_INVALID_ID.... stupid me lol
20:21:35  <nielsm> hence why hooking up a debugger is a good idea when you're debugging ;)
20:25:16  <Eddi|zuHause> spnda: there used to be some customizable data files for nforenum
20:25:24  <Eddi|zuHause> but i've never dealt with that
20:32:38  *** spnda has quit IRC
20:37:18  <andythenorth> oops
20:37:31  <andythenorth> brown cylindrical wagons tend towards looking like a poo
20:44:23  <rptr> ew
20:49:01  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i'm fairly sure some people would actually have some fun with that
20:55:42  *** Wormnest__ has quit IRC
21:05:07  *** sla_ro|master has quit IRC
21:14:18  <peter1138> Well
21:38:01  <andythenorth> yes
21:38:22  *** nielsm has quit IRC
21:42:02  <LordAro> maybe
21:59:41  *** andythenorth has quit IRC
22:01:20  *** Progman has quit IRC
22:19:53  *** WormnestAndroid has quit IRC
22:19:58  *** WormnestAndroid has joined #openttd
22:23:29  *** Wormnest__ has joined #openttd
22:46:30  *** Wolf01 has quit IRC
22:52:52  *** agentsmith101 has quit IRC
23:05:15  *** hythlodaeus has quit IRC
23:40:54  *** Samu has quit IRC
23:53:25  <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] JGRennison opened issue #7950: Normal screenshot mode may incorrectly show a huge screenshot warning dialog

Powered by YARRSTE version: svn-trunk