Log for #openttd on 26th February 2020:
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04:49:58  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] spauka opened pull request #8023: Fix #7664: (Cocoa) Manually set colorspace to sRGB https://git.io/Jvu4O
04:51:04  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] spauka updated pull request #8023: Fix #7664: (Cocoa) Manually set colorspace to sRGB https://git.io/Jvu4O
04:53:37  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] spauka updated pull request #8023: Fix #7664: (Cocoa) Manually set colorspace to sRGB https://git.io/Jvu4O
04:55:30  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] spauka updated pull request #8023: Fix #7644: (Cocoa) Manually set colorspace to sRGB https://git.io/Jvu4O
04:57:22  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] spauka commented on issue #7644: Mysteriously poor performance on macOS https://git.io/fjii3
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10:44:34  <TrueBrain> so ... I need a savegame with a NewGRF or something in it .. hmmm
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10:46:43  <TrueBrain> ha, found one on my disk, w00p
10:49:56  <TrueBrain> okay ... next question .. how the hell do you trigger a CLIENT_CONTENT_INFO_EXTID .. hmmmm
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10:53:01  <TrueBrain> via the console, lol, okay
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10:59:59  <TrueBrain> OpenTTD keeps finding an OpenGFX, and I have no clue where it is on my disk :D Sweet!
11:01:18  <TrueBrain> ah, "Public". URL in docs is wrong, funny :)
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11:10:35  <TrueBrain> so the code has this function: "RequestContentList(ContentVector *cv, bool send_md5sum)"
11:10:42  <TrueBrain> which is never called with md5sum=false
11:10:54  <TrueBrain> we have a whole protocol function that is never used :P funny
11:12:17  <TrueBrain> I would expected there was a function that only checks for the downloaded content if there are updates .. but what really happens, is that the whole content list is downloaded, and client-side it is checked if there are updates
11:12:20  <TrueBrain> not what I expected :D
11:19:21  <TrueBrain> what I like about looking back at those protocols (that I and Rb designed, basically, so I am laughing at myself) ... 2 out of the 5 near-identical functions have a count of 16bit, the others of 8bit .. wtf really :P CONSISTENCY PLEASE
11:26:04  <LordAro> nice
11:26:14  <LordAro> Truelight: bad
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11:37:32  <TrueBrain> lol .. the download mechanism is a bit funky ... client: request A and B
11:37:35  <TrueBrain> server: here you have C and D
11:37:48  <TrueBrain> client: sure, I just told the user I got A and B, but I really stored C and D, no problem
11:42:10  <TrueBrain> something I did not know (and clearly once knew): we store all content as gzip-files .. that saves a lot of bandwidth :D
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11:44:01  <TrueBrain> anyway, basics of ottd_content are done. Userflow is implemented. Now all it needs it a database and filestorage :)
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11:48:00  <LordAro> :)
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12:37:32  <TrueBrain> Endianess is a bit tricky with content I noticed ...
12:38:10  <TrueBrain> the ID OGFX becomes 0x5846474f and not 4f474658 what you would expect when reading OGFX
12:38:32  <TrueBrain> happens when you abuse char for uint32s :)
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12:56:41  <peter1138> Just use IDs in the "reserved" range.
13:00:27  * peter1138 copy & pastes code... except when MonoDevelop crashes repeatedly.
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13:04:52  <Samu> hi
13:22:18  <TrueBrain> hmm .. sometimes it is "Base Graphics", sometimes it is "Base Graphic"
13:22:51  <TrueBrain> same with "Base Sound(s)"
13:22:56  <TrueBrain> all others are singular
13:25:40  * LordAro creates a 477G swap partition
13:26:18  <TrueBrain> LOL! But why?!
13:26:27  <LordAro> Perfectly Legitimate Reasons
13:26:54  <TrueBrain> I hope it is stored on SSDs :P
13:26:57  <LordAro> NVMe :)
13:27:04  <TrueBrain> tomato tomato :)
13:27:12  <LordAro> true
13:27:50  <LordAro> TrueBrain: I'd say they should all be plural - "Music" is both singular and plural
13:28:11  <LordAro> peter1138: has MonoDevelop ever stopped crashing repeatedly?
13:28:13  <TrueBrain> NewGRF? AI? AI Library?
13:28:22  <LordAro> NewGRFs, AIs, AI Libraries
13:28:36  <LordAro> unless... what are we referring to here?
13:28:43  <LordAro> i should probably know that first :)
13:29:11  <TrueBrain> https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/blob/master/src/network/core/tcp_content.h#L22
13:29:20  <TrueBrain> https://github.com/OpenTTD/musa/blob/master/example.ini#L3
13:29:32  <TrueBrain> the last one has all entries fully singular
13:29:35  <TrueBrain> the first one has a mix
13:29:59  <LordAro> i see
13:30:05  <TrueBrain> its a mess :P
13:30:15  <LordAro> i guess it comes from "Base *" being collections, rather than a single item
13:30:20  <TrueBrain> I guess so too
13:30:24  <peter1138> LordAro :D
13:30:37  <TrueBrain> but the person who wrote the one is the same as who wrote the other (and not me), and did not remember that :D
13:30:51  <peter1138> LordAro, and that is one reason why I'm copying _out_ of MonoDevelop, heh
13:31:15  <LordAro> "Base Graphic" and "Base Sound" is sounds weird to me though ("Music" is already both singular and plural)
13:31:31  <TrueBrain> I dont care how things sound; I hate inconsistencies :P
13:31:43  <TrueBrain> existing musa ini files will have "Base Graphic"
13:31:50  <LordAro> peter1138: i don't think i've tried to use MonoDevelop in ...8 years?
13:32:01  <LordAro> TrueBrain: bleh
13:32:24  <peter1138> LordAro, I'm a bit behind, I've got VS Code open on the other half of the screen, heh.
13:47:28  <TrueBrain> argh, uniqueids are really terrible ... endianess conflicts++
13:48:46  <TrueBrain> char 'OGFX' is stored in memory as 0x"X", 0x"F", 0x"G", 0x"O" ... so 0x5846474f
13:48:57  <TrueBrain> euh, not in memory
13:49:05  <TrueBrain> well, yes, but that is not what I meant
13:49:15  <TrueBrain> so the int value is 1481000783
13:49:20  <TrueBrain> @calc  0x5846474f
13:49:20  <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: 1481000783
13:49:21  <TrueBrain> yes
13:49:43  <TrueBrain> so the folder should be named 5846474f
13:50:25  <TrueBrain> so .. struct.unpack("!I", bytes.fromhex("0x5846474f")) .. yes
13:50:37  <TrueBrain> (and yes, ! as it needs to read it in "BE" order ofc)
13:50:46  <TrueBrain> ugh .. this was wayyyy to complicated for something this simple :P
13:51:06  <TrueBrain> so Python tells me b'XFGO'
13:51:12  <TrueBrain> which is correct :) But looks weird :P
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14:43:27  <Eddi|zuHause> just make a function for "grfID('XFGO')" that makes a byteswap?
14:43:37  <Eddi|zuHause> err
14:43:45  <Eddi|zuHause> grfID('OGFX')
14:44:10  <TrueBrain> I don't really care how Python represents it. I was more wondering how to get it right :P
14:54:13  <TrueBrain> hmm ... minor flaw in current setup ... by only having the most recent GRF in the GitHub repository .. I have no metadata when fetching entries for savegame compatibility .. hmmmm
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15:08:58  <TrueBrain> cool ... except for the minor flaw for savegame compatibility, the new content server works :D Well, that was easy .. :P
15:09:11  <TrueBrain> needs cleaning up and some hardening, ofc .. but .. this is not bad :)
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15:30:04  <Samu> why's the cost of a corner tile square root of 2 / 2
15:31:42  <Samu> sqrt(2)/2 ~ 0.7071, so for NPF it's 70, for YAPF it's 71? shouldn't it be equal on both?
15:32:09  <TrueBrain> hmmm .... there are 2 NewGRFs with the same uniqueid .. made by 2 authors ... how could this ever been uploaded :o
15:32:35  <Samu> are they mine?
15:33:34  <Samu> what are their names?
15:37:38  <TrueBrain> ah .. one author changed its GRFID .. allowing another different package to upload theirs under the same GRFID
15:37:40  <TrueBrain> that is of course wrong
15:37:52  <TrueBrain> so I found a bug in BaNaNaS. Where can I report it? :D
15:38:48  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenGFX] kaechele commented on pull request #26: Change: Use xcf2png instead of GIMP https://git.io/Jvu12
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15:41:16  <heffer> Yeah. Please just don't use xcf2png :D
15:42:37  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenGFX] TrueBrain commented on pull request #26: Change: Use xcf2png instead of GIMP https://git.io/Jvu19
15:43:48  <TrueBrain> that comment triggered me :P And not because of the content of the PR :D
15:46:07  <milek7> in case gimp stays decision is needed on that 2.10 differences
15:46:13  <milek7> like whether it needs investigation or new blending is fine
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15:46:58  <TrueBrain> this double GRFID in BaNaNaS is a bit of a mystery to me ... I don't fully understand how it happened ..
15:47:08  <TrueBrain> maybe not worth my time atm :D
15:49:01  <heffer> TrueBrain: sorry for triggering :P Fedora has this rule that everything needs to be built from source. I do compare the hashes of the results and so far never had an issue with the generated files being different from what was pre-generated.
15:49:21  <TrueBrain> not generating the PNGs is still "from source" :)
15:49:40  <TrueBrain> but it makes me really happy you validate the results :D
15:50:53  <TrueBrain> as I noticed this can very easily go really wrong :P
15:51:00  <TrueBrain> we might just need to look at a better solution for this
15:53:34  <TrueBrain> hmm .. more BaNaNaS odities .. heightmaps and scenarios have no uniqueid .. it is the id of the row in the database .. rriiiigggghhhttttt
15:54:43  <nielsm> I'll test the osx colourspace thing in a mone
15:54:46  <nielsm> in a moment
16:07:22  <TrueBrain> openttd-supported-version:
16:07:22  <TrueBrain> minimum: "1.2.0"
16:07:22  <TrueBrain> maximum: "1.7.0"
16:07:35  <TrueBrain> you run OpenTTD 1.7.0 .. is this GRF compatible?
16:10:19  <LordAro> would suggest not
16:10:27  <LordAro> poorly named, perhaps
16:10:47  <TrueBrain> I agree
16:10:50  <TrueBrain> what would be better names?
16:11:05  <TrueBrain> especially as no longer have a "svn version", this at least becomes a bit easier
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16:20:02  <TrueBrain> the comment in the musa example ini seems wrong .. but okay .. not that many people used "svn version", so that shouldn't be a real issue tbh
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16:21:30  <TrueBrain> openttd-supported-version:
16:21:31  <TrueBrain> supported-from: 1.3.0
16:21:39  <TrueBrain> openttd-supported-version:
16:21:39  <TrueBrain> not-supported-from: 1.6.0
16:21:43  <TrueBrain> guess that is most clear
16:22:16  <LordAro> yeah
16:22:24  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on pull request #8023: Fix #7644: (Cocoa) Manually set colorspace to sRGB https://git.io/JvuDw
16:22:44  <TrueBrain> question is ... is 1.6.0 including beta and RC?
16:23:06  <LordAro> i guess it should do really...
16:23:41  <TrueBrain> so that means versions should always be major.minor.patch
16:23:46  <TrueBrain> as we sometimes introduce new stuff in patches, ofc
16:23:47  <LordAro> i mean, we basically do semver, could just say <1.6.0
16:24:00  <TrueBrain> semver is horrible with betas :)
16:24:04  <TrueBrain> 1.6.0-beta1 < 1.6.0
16:24:04  <LordAro> we *shouldn't* introduce new stuff in patches
16:24:24  <TrueBrain> so if you say >=1.6.0, it is excluding betas
16:24:47  <LordAro> well you'd do >1.5 :p
16:24:54  <TrueBrain> which includes 1.5.1
16:25:00  <LordAro> no it doesn't
16:25:03  <TrueBrain> (at least, in pip it does)
16:25:17  <LordAro> maybe i'm forgetting the correct syntax
16:25:43  <TrueBrain> seems semver doesn't define this at least
16:25:52  <LordAro> https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0440/#version-specifiers
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16:27:10  <TrueBrain> " >1.7 will allow 1.7.1"
16:27:23  <TrueBrain> so yeah ... welcome to the confusion-land, where nobody is sane, etc
16:27:39  <TrueBrain> all I remember when I had to understand this shit, that it is horrible
16:27:44  <LordAro> ok, so you'd do >=1.6 then :p
16:27:50  <LordAro> (instead of >1.5)
16:27:51  <TrueBrain> which is excluding 1.6-beta1
16:28:04  <LordAro> yes, but 1.6-beta1 isn't a thing
16:28:07  <LordAro> 1.6.0-beta1 is
16:28:17  <TrueBrain> >=1.6 is excluding 1.6.0-beta1, fine :P
16:28:36  <TrueBrain> but okay, we don't have to do what-ever it was that Python tried to do
16:28:42  <TrueBrain> we need to do something people understand :D
16:28:58  <TrueBrain> so we can make that >= 1.6.0 means including betas
16:29:09  <TrueBrain> as that is most likely what people mean
16:29:33  <TrueBrain> as if I look at it from the use case: 1.6.1 introduces a fix for NewGRF, and my GRF is only compatible from there
16:29:36  <TrueBrain> so I do: >= 1.6.1
16:29:43  <TrueBrain> I mean, including the betas and RCs ofc
16:29:47  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenGFX] planetmaker commented on pull request #26: Change: Use xcf2png instead of GIMP https://git.io/JvuDH
16:30:08  <TrueBrain> as I would say it is unlikely that something is introduced between beta and RC that breaks my GRF .. it has happened, but it is unlikely
16:30:47  <nielsm> I wonder if we can delete/simplify the blocks that support ancient macos versions?
16:31:02  <nielsm> e.g. checks for 10.5 and 10.7
16:31:03  <TrueBrain> we only support N-2, N-1 and N, right? :)
16:31:19  <TrueBrain> I tried to remove them a few months ago .. someone told me "it works, so why remove it"
16:31:24  <TrueBrain> just as a heads-up :)
16:31:44  <FLHerne> nielsm: 10.5 was (IIRC) the last version that worked on PowerPC hardware, so someone might be upset :P
16:31:54  <TrueBrain> LordAro:
16:31:55  <TrueBrain> openttd-compatibility:
16:31:55  <TrueBrain> - ">= 1.2.0"
16:31:55  <TrueBrain> - "< 1.7.0"
16:31:57  <TrueBrain> ? :)
16:32:05  * FLHerne [finally] doesn't have any working anymore
16:32:12  <nielsm> we also removed support for dos builds and various other weird OS nobody seriously use
16:32:26  <nielsm> and I'm not sure if windows 9x builds are really possible any longer either
16:32:32  <heffer> So I just built 1.10.0 RC1 on Fedora 31. Very smooth. Unfortunately SDL_VIDEODRIVER=wayland didn't work. But I'm probably asking too much :P
16:33:13  <FLHerne> Hm, both those things are older, to the point where it's really impossible to use them for normal stuff
16:33:14  <planetmaker> hm... PRs welcome :P
16:33:34  <FLHerne> But no, I'm not certain it's worth caring
16:33:54  <nielsm> nobody cares whether we support linux 2.2 either
16:34:21  <TrueBrain> lol, some people did this for their NewGRF:
16:34:22  <TrueBrain> openttd-compatibility:
16:34:22  <TrueBrain> - "< 0.6.0"
16:34:30  <TrueBrain> the content-service only exist from 0.6 and upwards :D
16:34:30  <nielsm> having a ton of ifdef blocks makes code harder to maintain and bugfixes harder to verify
16:34:36  <TrueBrain> basically, making it not available :)
16:34:48  <planetmaker> TrueBrain, that's means to hide it
16:34:58  <planetmaker> and make it available for savegames which need it
16:35:02  <planetmaker> at the very same time
16:35:02  <TrueBrain> others used "< 0.0.0"
16:35:06  <TrueBrain> which is easier to understand :)
16:35:10  <planetmaker> well :) yeah
16:36:18  <TrueBrain> openttd-compatibility:
16:36:18  <TrueBrain> - ">= 3.11.9"
16:36:18  <TrueBrain> - "< 0.0.0"
16:36:19  <milek7> does "not-supported-from" is sensible at all? it shouldn't be all backwards compatible with old newgrfs?
16:36:19  <TrueBrain> haha :D
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16:46:24  <BOB> are there any plans for new Vehicles to openttd. i have the idea for a airlander like vehicle
16:47:45  <planetmaker> @BOB, I'm sure that can be implemented via NewGRF. And anyone could do that :) Or anything particular which cannot be mimiced by heli or plane behaviour?
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16:49:59  <BOB> so i need to draw a new texture and put that in the NewGRF library?
16:51:53  <nielsm> if you mean something that's neither road vehicle, train, ship, or aircraft, then no that's probably never happening
16:52:13  <nielsm> but as long as you can place the vehicle you imagine under one of those categories, go hog wild
16:52:32  <TrueBrain> hmm .. either the default font cannot render Korean chars, or something is wrong with UTF-8 :)
16:55:35  <TrueBrain> holy crap, pressing "Check Online Content" is hella slow, for the next 10+ seconds OpenTTD is not behaving nicely :)
16:55:47  <TrueBrain> maybe it shouldn't update the UI for every new entry :D
16:55:47  <LordAro> TrueBrain: list has gotten quite big
16:55:55  <LordAro> though yes, that doesn't help :p
16:56:05  <TrueBrain> or maybe it should only fetch per category
16:56:09  <TrueBrain> or only "what can be update"
16:56:11  <TrueBrain> or something :P
16:56:29  <BOB> @nielsm, a airland is a variant on a airplane with a couple of diffent attribute than a aircraft. so you can mamic a aircraft but with full features i think that you must not only you another texture.
16:56:55  <BOB> i have found the NewGRF make documantion
16:57:09  <BOB> i will take a look a it.
16:57:20  <TrueBrain> LordAro: something for you to fix in 1.11? :D
16:57:30  <LordAro> TrueBrain: maybe!
16:57:43  <TrueBrain> the server needs 0.03 seconds to tansmit the whole list
16:57:45  <TrueBrain> 30msec
16:57:46  <TrueBrain> that is fair
16:58:00  <LordAro> though not updating the UI for every new entry could reasonably go in 1.10
16:58:06  <nielsm> BOB: also the term is sprite here, OTTD does not use 3D models so there are no textures
16:58:20  <TrueBrain> LordAro: yeah, that sounds like a simple fix. Well, if you have the time, it would make my testing at least a lot easier :D
16:59:06  <LordAro> TrueBrain: :p
16:59:12  <LordAro> TrueBrain: you should file a bug
16:59:16  <BOB> @nielsm, with texture i mean the image of the Vehicle i see on screen when playing the game
16:59:23  <TrueBrain> fun thing about fetching the list btw .. when it hits a dependency,it will ask the content server for the info .. which might already being transmitted because it asked for everything ..
16:59:58  <nielsm> BOB yes you're going to confuse everyone else as long as you use the wrong word :)
17:00:32  <BOB> than i will use sprite for it
17:02:20  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain opened issue #8024: "Check Online Content" lags the UI https://git.io/Jvuyj
17:02:29  <TrueBrain> LordAro: as requested ^^. Surprised nobody else had :)
17:09:02  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on issue #8024: "Check Online Content" lags the UI https://git.io/Jvuyj
17:09:33  <BOB> @nielsm: i have take a look in the wiki and i wen i will take a look a the TTDviewer the link give my a 502 Bad Gateway error
17:09:47  <BOB> http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/ttdviewer
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17:22:47  <Samu> glx, i tried diferent costs to curve90, it made little to no difference https://pastebin.com/VhRmUuiY
17:24:52  <Samu> the closer it was getting to 100, the worse it would become, but it's funny that if it's 100, it suddenly becomes good, but 100 means it's equal to the curve45 :(
17:25:06  <glx> weird the cost is higher than 100/600
17:25:39  <Samu> that's not the cost, it's the number of search nodes
17:25:40  <glx> I guess with lower cost it tries more paths
17:25:44  <Samu> yes
17:26:11  <glx> when the cost is high, paths are rejected earlier
17:27:19  <Samu> but for savegame 1 it meant no difference
17:27:41  <Samu> considering my fix is in
17:27:44  <Samu> of coures
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17:30:17  <glx> ignoring the docking cost until close enough makes sense I think, it's similar to roadstops balancing where the cache is trashed in the final approach IIRC
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17:41:28  <Samu> i tried to look at how that was fixed, it doesn't mess with penalties, it seems it just stops caching when it's getting closer to roadstops
17:42:14  <Samu> maybe i should look better
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17:49:47  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on pull request #8023: Fix #7644: (Cocoa) Manually set colorspace to sRGB https://git.io/Jvu9Z
17:54:35  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh opened pull request #8025: Remove: Support for macOS before 10.9 https://git.io/Jvu9R
17:54:50  <nielsm> kill it!
17:59:14  <LordAro> cast it into the fire!
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18:01:15  <Samu> oh, right, yapf_roads works with segments, not tiles
18:01:51  <Samu> entire different beast than ships
18:04:02  <LordAro> nielsm: and yet you seem to have left support for PPC OSX in?
18:04:41  <LordAro> was PPC OSX even a thing?
18:05:43  <nielsm> I guess I should remove that part too :P
18:05:51  <nielsm> and yes it was
18:10:57  <frosch123> TrueBrain: the performance of the content gui also depends on how much you have downloaded yourself. opening the gui for the first time after launch triggers computing all md5sums of all local scenarios, which can take quite a while if you have a debug build and rb made you download all scenarios for testing somewhen
18:12:39  <glx> also add the time of newgrf scanning before even get access to the main GUI ;)
18:12:56  * glx has way too many newgrfs
18:13:18  <frosch123> grf scan also differs a lot between optimised and non-optimised builds
18:13:49  <glx> last_newgrf_count = 1213
18:14:12  <frosch123> 1401 :p
18:14:37  <nielsm> can some of the local content md5 calculations be offloaded to a thread if they aren't already?
18:14:38  <glx> and some of them are even unusable in openttd
18:15:13  <frosch123> nielsm: at some point i wanted to store the md5sum together with file size/date in a ini file
18:15:28  <frosch123> but i dropped that idea when i noticed that optimised build is way faster
18:15:55  <TrueBrain> frosch123: this slowness is without any GRFs ;) So yeah .. lot of things to improve :)
18:16:26  <glx> BTW I think some repos need more people with write access
18:16:43  <LordAro> ^
18:16:51  <TrueBrain> frosch123: a puzzle ... my BaNaNaS idea has a flaw .. when you open a savegame with a GRF you don't have, you can download it .. this can be a really old GRF .. my idea initially was to not put everything in the GitHub repository, but only the recent content .. so how do I get things like "name" in that case? :D
18:16:53  <frosch123> glx: you are owner, you can add people
18:16:59  <frosch123> LordAro: also, get 2fa
18:17:12  <TrueBrain> glx: I think nobody can assign such permissions .. I think it needs to be a bit more specific, which people, what access, to where :D :D :)
18:17:23  <LordAro> frosch123: :<
18:18:20  <frosch123> glx: just don't add individual/external contributors, use the teams please
18:19:35  <frosch123> TrueBrain: does the name differ between versions?
18:19:43  <frosch123> i thought you can't rename stuff?
18:20:11  <TrueBrain> in the old system it is difficult, but it happens. But I was more thinking about the new GitHub repo, where that will be more common I am sure :)
18:20:40  <TrueBrain> there are also people who will want their GRF removed .. now we can just remove the "current.yaml" in the GitHub repository, and it is gone from listing
18:20:50  <TrueBrain> but there too .. the savegame download will be missing metadata
18:20:55  <TrueBrain> not sure that is a bad thing tbh ..
18:21:07  <frosch123> well, i would suggest to resolve the name only using the 4-byte id. so always show the name of the latest content, even when you download a old version
18:21:29  <TrueBrain> but what if we have that ID also not on record?
18:21:49  <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: a thing that was occasionally missing is, if you release a (beta) newgrf for a new feature, keep the older grf available for the latest (or earlier) release builds
18:22:02  <frosch123> TrueBrain: how?
18:22:12  <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: frosch123  mentioned that usecase; something for future extensions
18:22:27  <frosch123> the repo contains meta data per 4-byte id. that is only removed if the content is banned
18:22:43  <TrueBrain> frosch123: I just mentioned the usecase ;) We have people who want to remove their content :)
18:23:00  <TrueBrain> which is fine by me honestly, if they just want to remove their content .. it should be delisted etc
18:23:04  <frosch123> yes, but in that case all is removed, so you do not need to report the name
18:23:06  <TrueBrain> just .. the savegame should still be able to get it :)
18:23:15  <TrueBrain> so when you open such savegame, what name should I report?
18:23:24  <frosch123> none, because you can't download it
18:23:27  <TrueBrain> you can
18:23:41  <TrueBrain> you can ALWAYS download GRFs based on ID+MD5 if it was once uploaded (and not banned)
18:23:47  <frosch123> i think you mixed up some things
18:23:48  <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: so what's the problem if fetching older versions doesn't have a name?
18:23:49  <TrueBrain> that is the whole point of the savegame content download thingy :)
18:24:08  <TrueBrain> frosch123: I think it is more that we are not talking about the same thing :D :)
18:24:36  <frosch123> a 4-byte content id is either banned or available. if it is available, you know the name. if it is available it may also have a md5sum that is compatible with your version of ottd
18:25:06  <Eddi|zuHause> something isn't right, it's reporting 98% traffic flow...
18:25:08  <TrueBrain> that is not the part I am talking about :)
18:25:28  <frosch123> so, you can always get the name of a 4-byte id, unless the whole thing is blacklisted, and in that case bananas pretends to not know anything about it
18:25:30  <TrueBrain> the normal flow is working just fine :) Let me make a few screenshots ..
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18:26:35  <TrueBrain> https://pasteboard.co/IWvke18.png https://pasteboard.co/IWvkro0.png
18:26:39  <TrueBrain> that is what I am talking about
18:26:58  <TrueBrain> if you load a savegame which was saved with an old GRF, it allows you to retrieve it
18:27:14  <TrueBrain> this can be an uniqueid (your 4-byte id), which is not publicly listed anymore
18:27:30  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] frosch123 commented on issue #8024: "Check Online Content" lags the UI https://git.io/Jvuyj
18:27:32  <TrueBrain> https://github.com/TrueBrain/OpenTTD-BaNaNaS/tree/master/NewGRF/4341121f
18:27:37  <TrueBrain> as example of how the repo will look
18:27:56  <TrueBrain> so I have an ID+MD5, I have the tarball I can serve to the client, that is all working fine
18:28:09  <TrueBrain> but what name etc am I going to give it .. where do I get that metadata from
18:28:45  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on issue #8024: "Check Online Content" lags the UI https://git.io/Jvuyj
18:28:46  <frosch123> TrueBrain: you still  insist that listing the name publicly implies that something can be downloaded
18:28:52  <TrueBrain> huh?
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18:29:17  <nielsm> one of the promises of banana is that an author can delist an item so it's completely invisible
18:29:26  <TrueBrain> ^^
18:29:30  <frosch123> TrueBrain: the case you make "uniqueid (your 4-byte id), which is not publicly listed anymore" does not exist
18:29:31  <nielsm> unless a would-be downloader knows its id and md
18:29:44  <TrueBrain> frosch123: it does? Where do you get that information from?
18:30:04  <TrueBrain> it is already the case, that we have uniqueids that are not publicly listed, yet do exist
18:30:08  <frosch123> one of use has switched the universe
18:30:10  <TrueBrain> (and are not blacklisted)
18:30:44  <frosch123> TrueBrain: no, there are only cases where the latest version is set to "not compatible with your openttd"
18:31:22  <TrueBrain> this is not completely true; we also delisted items
18:31:42  <TrueBrain> but okay, that is not really important tbh
18:31:46  <TrueBrain> the question is: what do we want to do
18:31:57  <TrueBrain> on that GitHub I linked, I am pretty sure people will make PRs to remove their GRFID completely
18:32:02  <TrueBrain> because they got mad, or what-ever
18:32:09  <TrueBrain> that is a use-case I fully understand and I completely see happening
18:32:22  <TrueBrain> so you say: we are not going to support that usecase, if I understand you correctly?
18:32:48  <frosch123> no, banned stuff is removed completely
18:32:57  <TrueBrain> we are not talking about banned stuff
18:33:02  <frosch123> or are you now trying to do stuff with a public repo?
18:33:26  <frosch123> TrueBrain: "banned" and "deleted" are the same thing
18:33:40  <TrueBrain> they are? Okay .. there is a difference in my opinion, but sure
18:33:40  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm fairly convinced you two are still not talking about the same thing
18:33:43  <frosch123> both are 4-byte ids that can neither be uploaded nor downloaded
18:33:45  <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: I am too :)
18:34:22  <TrueBrain> frosch123: the above usecase I just gave, shows that won't be the case
18:34:28  <TrueBrain> or are you against that usecase?
18:35:06  <TrueBrain> (which is fine, but clearly we are talking cross eachother, so I am just trying to sync up :D)
18:35:12  <frosch123> i understand your example as "auithor want to make new content unavailable because they are mad, but want to keep old stuff available". and i think that usecase is nonsense
18:35:18  <frosch123> either you leave, your you dont
18:35:26  <frosch123> there is no middle "somewhat mad"
18:35:35  <TrueBrain> okay, now I get where you are coming from :)
18:35:50  <TrueBrain> how ever mad an author will be, the ToS allows us to always distribute their content for savegame compatibility
18:35:55  <TrueBrain> so there is where our paths split :)
18:36:12  <TrueBrain> there is banned content, content that was never allowed to be uploaded because of license issues
18:36:16  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: the idea is: however mad they got, we can still distribute it to people who have a savegame
18:36:21  <TrueBrain> and there is deleted content, content that was delisted because someone got mad
18:36:25  <TrueBrain> the first case, data got removed
18:36:30  <TrueBrain> the last case, data exists, and is retrievable
18:36:35  <frosch123> TrueBrain: https://github.com/frosch123/bananas2/blob/master/docs/data.md <- see first section
18:37:01  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: that is wrong, that is betraying them and distributing the content beind their back
18:37:04  <frosch123> i hope we dont do that
18:37:20  <TrueBrain> our ToS is explicitly written to allow that
18:37:24  <TrueBrain> unless your content is banned
18:37:42  <TrueBrain> so that "promise", is not what BaNaNaS v1 does
18:37:44  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: you can't revoke licenses just becaue you got mad
18:37:47  <frosch123> TrueBrain: i very much hope that delisted content is not downloadable
18:37:52  <frosch123> otherwise i think we have a big issue
18:38:06  <TrueBrain> it is, that is what I am saying :) And no, we have no issue, it is explicitly written to be like that
18:38:30  <TrueBrain> basically, the ToS says: players come first, unless a license has been broken
18:38:34  <frosch123> i was convinced that it is explicitly written to not do that, and i still hope you are wrong
18:38:52  <TrueBrain> http://bananas.openttd.org/en/manager/tos/ <- not sure that works?
18:38:53  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm gonna side with TrueBrain on that
18:39:16  <TrueBrain> basically, in 2007 or 2008, the issue was people wanted their content gone, as they were mad
18:39:24  <TrueBrain> and that would invalidate 20+% of the people using NewGRF savegames
18:39:31  <TrueBrain> a LONG discussion followed
18:39:34  <TrueBrain> and the ToS got changed
18:39:43  <TrueBrain> to allow content, once uploaded, to always distribute, under conditions
18:39:51  <TrueBrain> basically, OpenTTD get a distribution license
18:40:07  <TrueBrain> the conditions are simple: only based on uniqueid+md5, the content can be made available
18:40:19  <TrueBrain> in other words: it only works for existing savegames
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18:40:27  <TrueBrain> so if you get a savegame for 10 years ago, it will load in OpenTTD
18:40:28  <frosch123> the tos was never changed, it was extended for gs at some point, but there is only one version of the tos
18:40:42  <frosch123> you may remember drafts before bananas was started
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18:40:45  <glx> except for banned content that should not have been uploaded
18:41:44  <TrueBrain> frosch123: not really a relevant discussion; the initial ToS did not allow for this behaviour, and now it does :P The timeline is not really relevant tbh
18:42:34  <frosch123> i think we live in different universes
18:42:50  <TrueBrain> well, what I described is what is currently implemented :)
18:43:06  <TrueBrain> I am fine changing it etc etc
18:43:13  <TrueBrain> I am just moddeling around the current system
18:44:18  <TrueBrain> https://gist.github.com/TrueBrain/3564623507cc30735c22781863e30f73
18:44:21  <TrueBrain> styling got lost :(
18:44:22  <TrueBrain> dammit
18:45:28  <TrueBrain> anyway, I get now why we didn't understand each other, we work from a different set of rules :D
18:45:54  <TrueBrain> - You grant the OpenTTD team to retain older versions of your content for the purpose of loading save games with said older version.
18:45:54  <TrueBrain> - You grant the OpenTTD team the rights to distribute your content from a central server when specifically asked for it by its unique identifier and MD5 checksum.
18:46:01  <TrueBrain> these two rules is were the difference come from, I guess
18:46:46  <frosch123> i checked svn, in my universe the tos have been unmodified since the start of bananas in 2009
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18:46:56  <TrueBrain> frosch123: again, timeline is really not that relevant
18:46:57  <frosch123> if your universe has a different svn, i cant help
18:47:05  <TrueBrain> if this is the only ToS you have ever seen, even better :)
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18:47:14  <TrueBrain> I am not sure why that became a focus point :)
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18:47:46  <frosch123> because we disagreed on what was decided how in the past, and i see my understanding backed up by vcs
18:47:52  <TrueBrain> so you say: if a user wants his content removed, savegames that used the GRF won't be able to download the content anymore, right?
18:48:05  <frosch123> so, unless you hacked the vcs, i have no idea where you are coming from
18:48:23  <frosch123> TrueBrain: yes, keep all, or remove all. no middle ground
18:48:44  <TrueBrain> okay. As that is not what is currently implemented, so the question is there: do we want to change the current implementation?
18:48:48  <frosch123> the author can always set stuff "not available for ottd < 0.3", but that does not delete stuff
18:48:53  <frosch123> it just makes the gui hide it
18:49:08  <frosch123> TrueBrain: i am convinced it is implemented like that
18:49:12  <TrueBrain> it is not the GUI that hides it; it is the ottd_content that stops telling you about it
18:54:00  <frosch123> in case you forgot, the website lists more stuff than ottd_content
18:54:23  <TrueBrain> I know :) But you cannot download from there, only the most recent
18:54:33  <TrueBrain> which is a whole different can of worms
18:55:05  <TrueBrain> yeah, we have a GRF of 20 that are simply delisted in the database
18:56:27  <TrueBrain> okay, so I guess the question is: the ToS allows us to keep the content of "deleted" GRFs .. if we really delete the content, it means we break savegames. Besides if we think that is currently done or not (as they are rare events far apart), do we agree that is a good idea?
18:57:09  <frosch123> the original question was "how to get the name", right?
18:57:27  <TrueBrain> yeah, and that is split in two cases: what if there is no metadata, and what if we have metadata of a newer version
18:57:40  <TrueBrain> the latter we agree'd on I believe, just use the metadata of the newer
18:57:51  <TrueBrain> so that leaves a few entries where I need an answer for the first :)
18:57:57  <frosch123> i suggest that "no metadata" only applies to "never uploaded" or "banned"
18:58:21  <TrueBrain> so we are not going to accept any PR that removes a folder, basically?
18:58:29  <frosch123> and i suggest to just always report the name for the latest content
18:59:08  <frosch123> TrueBrain: for me removing metadata implies removing all data
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18:59:17  <frosch123> it makes no sense to only delete some data
18:59:46  <frosch123> keeping the metadata available does not imply that there is a "latest" for download
19:00:01  <TrueBrain> the times I processed a request to remove entries from BaNaNaS, with concent of the authors btw, we always just flipped a bit to "not list it" .. this is of course often considered "deleting", so that is a bit tricky wording :D
19:00:20  <TrueBrain> okay, that is a bit of a change of the current setup, but I can work with that
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19:00:42  <frosch123> TrueBrain: if you did that, i am quite sure that was not the authors intention
19:00:57  <TrueBrain> for the cases I handled, and I think I did all, it was
19:01:07  <TrueBrain> as I delibrately ask for that (pointing to the ToS)
19:01:33  <TrueBrain> I don't like listing files if that is really against the author's wishes; but most of the time they understand what the consequences are, and allow "delisted" content
19:01:43  <TrueBrain> the only exception ever was of course mb, but his content is banned
19:02:05  <frosch123> still, for me "no metadata"="banned"
19:02:38  <Eddi|zuHause> from a client's perspective, yes
19:02:56  <TrueBrain> and there is a minor change in the new idea .. as currently we have all the metadata, just not public
19:02:59  <TrueBrain> and I want to make that public
19:03:15  <TrueBrain> so basically, in every folder there will be an "info.yaml" and a "currentl.yaml" or what-ever
19:03:21  <TrueBrain> the first with the metadata, the second with download information
19:03:26  <TrueBrain> you can remove the second
19:03:31  <TrueBrain> never the first (unless banned)
19:03:45  <frosch123> yes, i agree with that
19:03:49  <Eddi|zuHause> do you have a GDPR form of everyone who ever uploaded anything to bananas? :p
19:04:06  <frosch123> info.yaml remains available forever, unless banned
19:04:37  <TrueBrain> in essence that is the same as we do now, so that makes things easier :)
19:04:39  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: both tb and i had plenty of training on gdpr
19:05:06  <TrueBrain> I already had to process a GDPR request for OpenTTD .. it was horrible, as the user could not identify himself ..
19:05:08  <frosch123> (and not for ottd :p)
19:05:30  <TrueBrain> (forgot password, email was no longer working, spelled the name wrong, ...)
19:05:44  <TrueBrain> that was "fun"
19:05:57  <frosch123> well, if they can't spell their name :)
19:06:17  <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: request as in "please delete all my data"?
19:06:21  <TrueBrain> yes
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19:07:36  <TrueBrain> okay, frosch123 , that was a very long conversation to figure out where we diverged :D But I think in the end we meant the same, but the wording made a disconnect :P
19:08:01  <TrueBrain> I suggest we also make this in the HTML like that: either you request your shit to be banned, or you simply "deactivate" your stuff
19:08:10  <frosch123> LordAro: you are the first one who is in every team except the bot team :p
19:08:47  <TrueBrain> and all that still without 2FA .. he is just asking to being target, isn't he? :D
19:09:12  <frosch123> TrueBrain: as said a few days ago, it would be fancy if the "available for new users" would be a checkbox in front of every version, instead of just "latest"
19:09:22  <frosch123> but can also be added later
19:09:40  <TrueBrain> "listed"?
19:10:40  <TrueBrain> as I guess that is now somewhat easier to do
19:11:02  <TrueBrain> as you have a uniqueID, an in there you have a few YAML files which state the files available for download ("listed" in the UI)
19:11:16  <TrueBrain> but they will all have the same description etc
19:11:28  <TrueBrain> well, we can make it so you can overrule that
19:11:45  <frosch123> yes, every content has a readme and changelog in the package. info.yaml is global for all
19:11:46  <TrueBrain> hmm ... that would make a fun export, tbh
19:12:33  <TrueBrain> currently I only exported the "latest"
19:12:41  <TrueBrain> but I can also export all versions, just marked as "delisted"
19:13:00  <TrueBrain> not sure authors would appreciate that
19:13:33  <TrueBrain> as it would also show all their typos :)
19:13:33  <frosch123> well, unless you give me examples in private, i still think that people expected "delisted"="banned"
19:13:58  <TrueBrain> haha, sorry, I am trying to find a good word for it, but I was refering to: you have v1, v2, v3, v4
19:14:04  <TrueBrain> only v4 shows up in the UI ("listed")
19:14:09  <TrueBrain> v1, v2 and v3 are "delisted"
19:14:18  <TrueBrain> bad word, hence the quotes .. looking for a better one
19:14:29  <TrueBrain> "available to new users" is what you meant with that too I guess, but "new users" sounds wrong :)
19:14:36  <frosch123> "available for savegames", "available for new games"
19:14:42  <TrueBrain> that works for me
19:15:09  <TrueBrain> and I now found 2 usecases to have more than 1 available for new games
19:15:15  <TrueBrain> 1) 32bpp and 8bpp packages
19:15:29  <TrueBrain> 2) v1 for >= 0.6 < 1.10, and v2 for >= 1.10
19:16:02  <frosch123> yep, and v3.alpha for >= 1.11 (nightly)
19:16:14  <TrueBrain> can we see nightlies atm?
19:16:18  <frosch123> and v4 for jgrpp
19:16:29  <TrueBrain> does their version differ? (honest question)
19:16:33  <frosch123> TrueBrain: nightly is 1.11, stable is 1.10
19:16:38  <TrueBrain> ah
19:16:38  <TrueBrain> lol
19:16:39  <TrueBrain> fair :)
19:17:00  <milek7> uh, gimp loads all plugins on every startup
19:17:02  <TrueBrain> okay, so that means I will export all versions that ever existed for all GRFs on file
19:17:15  <TrueBrain> and put them on "available for savegames" for all but latest
19:17:21  <frosch123> current bananas allows entering a svn revision, but that is deprecated :)
19:17:28  <TrueBrain> yeah, I found out today :P
19:17:41  <TrueBrain> I also found out we have 2 packages with the same uniqueid written by 2 different authors ..
19:17:44  <TrueBrain> really no clue how that happened
19:17:56  <milek7> and it turns out one of them crashes when launching parallerly with -j12..
19:17:57  <TrueBrain> one of the 2 authors ragequit, so it is fine
19:18:33  <TrueBrain> I was hoping this GitHub repository would only have a single file per uniqueid .. having this whole history might be hard to read ..
19:18:43  <Eddi|zuHause> can't be the first time we have a GrfID clash
19:18:45  <TrueBrain> well, I can put it in one file, I guess
19:18:53  <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: the upload should refuse it
19:18:56  <TrueBrain> that is what confuses me
19:19:34  <frosch123> TrueBrain: so, if content is banned in the future, the metadata remains in the git history?
19:19:44  <TrueBrain> I guess
19:19:50  <TrueBrain> hadn't thought about that, tbh
19:20:17  <TrueBrain> the MD5s are not readable, so I guess that isn't really an issue?
19:21:30  <frosch123> yep, i guess not
19:22:31  <TrueBrain> https://gist.github.com/TrueBrain/34cd8e135b080621284b27ed8249aa9c
19:22:33  <TrueBrain> that works, I guess
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19:23:05  <andythenorth> o/
19:23:10  <TrueBrain> its andy!
19:23:53  <frosch123> TrueBrain: isn't there some kind of upload timestamp?
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19:24:13  <TrueBrain> that sounds like sane metadata to add :D
19:25:43  <TrueBrain> question is, would an author want to have a different description or something per version?
19:25:48  <TrueBrain> or is it okay to have the same for all
19:26:17  <TrueBrain> for the 32bpp vs 8bpp I can imagine the names should be different
19:26:24  <TrueBrain> OpenGFX (high-res) / OpenGFX (low-res)
19:26:47  <frosch123> TrueBrain: info.yaml is only for new content. descriptions of old content are inside the package as readme etc
19:27:00  <TrueBrain> there isn't much metadata inside packages, sadly
19:27:06  <TrueBrain> only readme, license and changelog
19:27:18  <TrueBrain> and they aren't shown before you download the package
19:27:21  <frosch123> and content id for heightmaps and scenarios
19:27:26  <TrueBrain> good point
19:27:58  <frosch123> TrueBrain: thing is, bananas descriptions and readme in the packages differ, already today
19:28:06  <TrueBrain> as they should
19:28:10  <TrueBrain> a readme should have a lot more text :P
19:28:44  <frosch123> TrueBrain: metadata may need "license" per version though. people are upset when they cant see the license in advane before downloading
19:28:50  <frosch123> and uploading new versions can change the license
19:28:55  <TrueBrain> I guess my lowres/highres example would have different versions .. 0.5.5-lowres and 0.5.5-highres .. hmm
19:29:51  <TrueBrain> so a global.yaml, and a yaml per version .. where you can overwrite any value from global.yaml
19:30:24  <andythenorth> did anyone approve glx nml fix yet? o_O
19:30:31  * andythenorth still reading very long logs today
19:31:19  <frosch123> TrueBrain: compatibility: { "master": ["0.7.0", None], "jgrpp": ["1.2", "2.0"] }
19:31:43  <TrueBrain> frosch123: I like that idea, just we currently have no way to tell that to the server or client
19:31:55  <TrueBrain> but it becomes more clear that we need to revise the protocol anyway :D
19:33:06  <TrueBrain> I really think that is a good idea, to allow patchpacks to work in the common flow too .. hmm
19:33:15  <TrueBrain> btw, "min"/"max" is very confusion we found out today
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19:33:22  <TrueBrain> hence the >= and <= stuff :)
19:33:31  <TrueBrain> well, >= and <
19:34:09  <andythenorth> wow much to read :)
19:34:29  <andythenorth> are valid DMCA takedowns covered by 'author got mad'?
19:34:54  <TrueBrain> a DMCA takedown is fine, but that only works if we are in violation of a license ;)
19:35:22  <TrueBrain> truth be told, we never cared WHY you wanted to remove content, we always tried to find a dialog what it really is the author wants
19:35:26  <TrueBrain> no matter what the source was
19:41:34  <TrueBrain> https://gist.github.com/TrueBrain/34cd8e135b080621284b27ed8249aa9c <- how about this, would that work?
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19:46:10  <frosch123> i still miss a timestamp per version, i do not fancy using the commit date for that
19:46:17  <TrueBrain> you are right
19:46:50  <TrueBrain> refresh
19:47:23  <frosch123> content type (baseset, newgrf) is a directory?
19:47:31  <TrueBrain> yes
19:47:48  <TrueBrain> added dependencies
19:47:56  <frosch123> license is still complicated
19:48:20  <TrueBrain> especially if they are "custom"
19:48:20  <frosch123> it can be different per version, and i think that licenses were actually changed in the past
19:48:40  <TrueBrain> yeah .. but we support changing now
19:48:53  <TrueBrain> but if you select "custom", you still can't see it in the UI
19:49:18  <frosch123> do you still want to support "depenencies"? iirc they were mostly broken
19:49:38  <frosch123> hmm, though i guess ai/gs really need them for libraries
19:49:47  <TrueBrain> the UI of the webinterface is mostly broken .. but not sure if they are useful
19:50:10  <TrueBrain> I hate the format they are in .. content_type:uniqueid:md5
19:50:20  <TrueBrain> but at least it is a solid reference to something unique
19:51:21  <TrueBrain> okay, in this format it is also reletive simple to make a webpage for to edit this
19:51:26  <TrueBrain> so I am fine with this format tbh
19:52:15  <frosch123> using the "version" and filename is troublesome though
19:52:38  <frosch123> restricts characters, and stuff like version "authors" :p
19:52:48  <TrueBrain> folder time!
19:52:49  <frosch123> a single file is better for escaping
19:53:25  <frosch123> ah, though you include the version also inside the file
19:53:32  <frosch123> so maybe just number them consecutively?
19:53:34  <TrueBrain> yeah, filename is irrelevant, basically
19:53:36  <TrueBrain> sure
19:53:48  <TrueBrain> and put them in a folder to make it more clear
19:53:48  <LordAro> a file per version seems a bit much, perhaps?
19:53:57  <LordAro> why not a list?
19:54:03  <TrueBrain> you know some people have TONS of versions, right? :D
19:54:03  <frosch123> oh, how about using the date, like nightlies?
19:54:18  <LordAro> TrueBrain: that's why i thought a single file might be easier :p
19:54:30  <TrueBrain> frosch123: what do you mean?
19:54:42  <frosch123> using the timestamp as the filename for the version files
19:54:50  <TrueBrain> but you can edit them
19:55:01  <TrueBrain> or you just mean "created" date?
19:55:10  <frosch123> upload date of the content
19:55:18  <TrueBrain> works for me
19:55:24  <frosch123> yes, "created" is "upload date"
19:55:50  <frosch123> i also thought of the "date" in the file as created/upload date. did you think of "last modified"?
19:56:08  <TrueBrain> I hadn't thought about it :P
19:56:11  <frosch123> because i would be fine with "last modified" coming from git
19:56:12  <TrueBrain> now I renamed it to upload-date
19:56:37  <TrueBrain> LordAro: mainly, this is easier to process for a webpage (different files)
19:56:53  <frosch123> upload-date is the date of the content, i do not really care when someone changes the version requirements
19:56:54  <TrueBrain> for the manager part
19:57:15  <TrueBrain> the date the tarball got uploaded, yes
19:57:19  <TrueBrain> suggestions for a better name?
19:58:11  <TrueBrain> hmm .. maybe 2 folders: savegame-only and new-games
19:58:17  <TrueBrain> a bit more friendly for the human in charge
19:59:00  <frosch123> bad idea, that implies moving files in the repository
19:59:09  <LordAro> TrueBrain: yeah, true
19:59:09  <TrueBrain> git mv is cheap
19:59:10  <TrueBrain> but fair
19:59:40  <TrueBrain> I am sure we are missing more fields .. but time will tell
19:59:44  <TrueBrain> any other suggestions/comments?
19:59:56  <frosch123> i have models.py opened :)
20:00:01  <LordAro> licence?
20:00:06  <LordAro> wait, that's already there
20:00:13  <TrueBrain> except custom license
20:00:16  <TrueBrain> still not happy about that
20:00:25  <TrueBrain> but no way to push them to the client anyway, so meh
20:00:35  <frosch123> TrueBrain: yeah, "licence/license/lisence/lisense" spelling, i have no idea what is what
20:01:22  <frosch123> TrueBrain: dependencies are per version?
20:01:31  <TrueBrain> "In American English, license is both a noun and a verb, and licence isn’t used. For example, one who is licensed to drive has a driver’s license. In all the other main varieties of English, licence is the noun, and license is the verb. So, for instance, one who is licensed to perform dental surgery has a dental surgeon’s licence."
20:01:32  <TrueBrain> so licence it is
20:02:00  <TrueBrain> litterly never knew there was a difference
20:02:37  <frosch123> oh, i know that there is a difference between licence/license, safe/save, proof/prove, but i never know which is which
20:02:43  <TrueBrain> frosch123: hmm .. dependencies are per version I think yes
20:02:57  <TrueBrain> yeah, it has to, especially for AIs
20:03:14  <TrueBrain> well, in fact, it should not be in global ..
20:03:50  <frosch123> also, i never use yaml... does yaml have save string escaping?
20:04:08  <TrueBrain> in what sense?
20:04:22  <TrueBrain> """ is a quote
20:04:34  <TrueBrain> euh
20:04:35  <TrueBrain> lol
20:04:36  <frosch123> can you put \n \t : | "  \ in the description?
20:04:37  <TrueBrain> my client escaped that
20:04:39  <TrueBrain> "\""
20:04:44  <TrueBrain> yes :)
20:04:50  <LordAro> https://yaml-multiline.info/ it has a whole site
20:05:01  <TrueBrain> after |, you can do what-ever
20:05:59  <LordAro> https://security.openstack.org/guidelines/dg_avoid-dangerous-input-parsing-libraries.html unless you mean safe_load like this :p
20:05:59  <TrueBrain> I exported the current DB of BaNaNaS .. I was happy to see quoting works in YAML :D
20:06:05  <TrueBrain> people do some stupid shit in their names
20:06:07  <frosch123> TrueBrain: i would expect yaml to eat leading/trailing whitespace, but i wouldn't know what other stuff it eats
20:06:19  <TrueBrain> in yaml you have 2 ways to do things
20:06:21  <TrueBrain> a: b
20:06:22  <TrueBrain> a: "b"
20:06:30  <andythenorth> hmm this gui2x crap in ogfx
20:06:32  <TrueBrain> the first, it will strip, and do more shit
20:06:34  <andythenorth> I'd better implement it
20:06:36  <TrueBrain> the second, it does everything you expect
20:06:37  <andythenorth> not sure how it works
20:07:01  <TrueBrain> LordAro: yeah, use yaml.safe_load, always, everywhere :D
20:07:34  <dwfreed> don't use yaml
20:07:37  <dwfreed> problem solved
20:07:39  <LordAro> yaml.safe_load(TrueBrain)
20:07:47  <TrueBrain> frosch123: even UTF-8 works btw :)
20:07:55  <andythenorth> hmm some alternative_sprites thing
20:08:03  <frosch123> andythenorth: https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenGFX/blob/master/sprites/extra/extra-openttd-gui.pnml#L67
20:08:16  <andythenorth> thx
20:08:31  <TrueBrain> still on the fence if I should export all history of all GRFs that are currently available-for-new-games
20:08:34  <andythenorth> I'll have to draw them as well
20:08:40  <TrueBrain> pretty sure it should be fine for 99% of the cases
20:08:40  <andythenorth> it's lolz drawing sprites I'll never ever use
20:08:59  <andythenorth> in a style I haven't learnt to do :P
20:09:34  <frosch123> TrueBrain: if you only export stuff available for new games, what does the history include more that is available now?
20:09:52  <TrueBrain> I am pretty sure more than one users meant to do what 0.5.4 and 0.5.5 in my example do
20:10:00  <TrueBrain> but currently you can have only 1 "available-for-new-games"
20:10:10  <TrueBrain> but I guess they can correct that if they want to
20:10:36  <TrueBrain> so basically, it would make it a bit easier for authors
20:10:59  <TrueBrain> hmm, "savegames-only" is basically "archive" :D
20:11:12  <glx> [20:30:24] <andythenorth> did anyone approve glx nml fix yet? o_O <-- not yet
20:11:30  <TrueBrain> now I come to think of it, pretty sure andythenorth  doesn't want the world to know that he made 20+ versions of Iron Horse 1 :P
20:11:42  <andythenorth> don't I?
20:11:44  <glx> only 20+ ?
20:11:48  <andythenorth> I want that on my wikipedia page
20:11:57  <andythenorth> can you just hide the brown bag releases, thanks
20:11:57  <TrueBrain> frosch123: the other benefit would be that I know from the repository all MD5s that are available .. now I have to poll the FS to know
20:12:00  <frosch123> TrueBrain: there have been like 70 versions of nuts
20:12:09  <TrueBrain> but yeah ... lets keep it on the safe side :)
20:12:46  <andythenorth> do I have to put the spritenumbers in the ogfx spritesheets?
20:12:51  <TrueBrain> and I like keeping histories .. I never understand why people want to hide stuff .. meh .. ookkkaaaayyyyyyy, I will only do "current" :P
20:13:06  <frosch123> TrueBrain: what is the current status on storing the md5sums? last status i know: store encrypted
20:13:16  <TrueBrain> unchanged
20:13:23  <TrueBrain> and I am still open for suggestions :D
20:14:06  <TrueBrain> it is the only piece of information that should be hidden from view
20:14:56  <TrueBrain> come to think of it ... I don't really need to encrypt, do I? I can just hash the hash .. as the user will always give me the md5 ..
20:15:13  <TrueBrain> so if I hash the hash ... with that second hash you cannot request content
20:15:28  <frosch123> you can truncate the md5sum to 8 chars :)
20:15:29  <TrueBrain> well, not true .. on the CDN you can request the download .. meh, nevermind
20:15:30  <TrueBrain> stupid idea
20:15:51  <TrueBrain> minor chance on collision, but .. minor
20:16:18  <frosch123> i kind of like that, that allows you to locate the right file if you know the md5sum
20:16:23  <TrueBrain> hmm, no, same issue: ottd_content returns HTTP URLs to the CDN
20:16:40  <TrueBrain> hmm, no, I can of course do a * lookup
20:16:54  <TrueBrain> so I can gather the full MD5 by looking on the CDN (as I can list files)
20:16:59  <TrueBrain> from the outside you cannot
20:17:11  <TrueBrain> but what do we do on hash-collision?
20:17:20  <TrueBrain> well ... hash[0:8] collision?
20:17:31  <frosch123> reject the upload :)
20:17:39  <TrueBrain> what can I user do to fix it?
20:17:58  <frosch123> wait... didn't you say ealier that you want to offer both 8bpp and 32bpp files?
20:17:58  <Xaroth> how likely is that to happen?
20:18:11  <TrueBrain> frosch123: I have been told OpenTTD supports that
20:18:13  <dwfreed> you can rainbow table the hashed hash
20:18:17  <TrueBrain> and they return the same md5 ... hmm ..
20:18:19  <frosch123> TrueBrain: yes, but they have the same checksum :)
20:18:21  <TrueBrain> that is a problem :D
20:18:25  <TrueBrain> crap
20:18:43  <TrueBrain> okay .... so ....
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20:18:55  <frosch123> well, just means that you have to include the "8bpp/32bpp" in the filename as well
20:19:03  <glx> ah yes md5 is not done on the full newgrf
20:19:13  <frosch123> so you store "newgrf/grfid/md5sum_8bpp.tar"
20:19:22  <TrueBrain> how do I know with what to postfix?
20:19:41  <TrueBrain> but, how files are stored on disk can be different
20:19:48  <TrueBrain> for example, I can store it under the sha256 name
20:19:52  <TrueBrain> of the full tar
20:20:43  <frosch123> TrueBrain: https://github.com/frosch123/bananas2/blob/master/bananas2/logic/content/newgrf.py <- that part of bananas2 is finished
20:20:55  <frosch123> the folder contains some more py files to extract meta data
20:21:03  <frosch123> like dependencies of scenarios
20:21:10  <TrueBrain> what does this do, sorry?
20:21:28  <frosch123> you give it a grf file, and it gives you md5, 32bpp yes/no, trains yes/no, ...
20:21:33  <TrueBrain> ah, like that
20:22:05  <frosch123> savegame.py gives you md5 of savegame and required newgrf and their md5sum
20:22:07  <frosch123> and so on
20:22:23  <TrueBrain> not bad :)
20:22:26  <TrueBrain> musa had some code for that too
20:22:30  <TrueBrain> just .. really ugly :D
20:23:07  <TrueBrain> possibly not in the first version I am building, but I like that we can just fill in the dependencies for the user .. that is a very nice QOL improvement
20:23:13  <glx> don't look at nml ;)
20:23:24  <TrueBrain> I like that frosch123 , more meta-data :)
20:23:30  <TrueBrain> what else do you have in BaNaNaS 2? :D
20:23:45  <glx> for me it's sometimes a pain to find my way in nml source
20:24:00  <frosch123> TrueBrain: i listed the best parts already :/
20:24:08  <TrueBrain> well, they are useful, so tnx for that :)
20:24:25  <TrueBrain> okay, so what if we store the files under their sha256 of the full tar
20:24:33  <TrueBrain> and store in the yaml files the first 8 bytes or so
20:24:47  <TrueBrain> we can avoid collision that way easily (as we create the tar)
20:24:52  <TrueBrain> so that is fine
20:24:59  <frosch123> how does ottd request data?
20:25:24  <frosch123> what do you try to solve with another checksum?
20:25:24  <TrueBrain> 4 methods: list content-type, give based on internal id, give based on uniqueid, give based on uniqueid+md5
20:25:40  <TrueBrain> well, another checksum is always unique, so 32bpp and 8bpp aren't an issue
20:25:44  <TrueBrain> they will have different checksums
20:25:48  <TrueBrain> no disucssion there :)
20:26:25  <TrueBrain> the main issue is the lookup of uniqueid+md5
20:26:25  <frosch123> didn't you want to use the filelisting to get the md5sums?
20:26:38  <TrueBrain> yes, but you pointed out that 32bpp and 8bpp have the same md5 :)
20:26:56  <frosch123> that's why i suggested md5sum_8bpp.tar
20:27:06  <TrueBrain> yeah, but that is more complicated than I would like
20:27:10  <frosch123> and gave you the script to figure that out (which can be added later)
20:27:32  <frosch123> well, your choice, i consider it a lot easier than adding another checksum and conversion tables between checksums
20:27:46  <TrueBrain> conversion tables? who talked about that :)
20:28:02  <frosch123> ottd gives you a md5sum, and you need the matching sha256
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20:28:48  <TrueBrain> hmm ... do we need to send the md5sum to the client, I wonder ..
20:29:18  <TrueBrain> hmm, we do
20:29:19  <TrueBrain> bah
20:29:25  <TrueBrain> so even the partial md5sum is not going to fly
20:29:41  <frosch123> TrueBrain: https://github.com/frosch123/bananas2/blob/master/bananas2/data/project_version.py#L21 <- oh, i also named it "archived" there
20:30:13  <TrueBrain> "normal" users, I like that wording :D
20:30:49  <TrueBrain> keeping a secret in a public project is always difficult ... "we have this identifier, but we don't want you to know about it"
20:31:27  <TrueBrain> so encryption is simply easiest
20:31:31  <TrueBrain> it sucks, but ...
20:31:51  <frosch123> i liked the first-8-chars of md5sum
20:32:01  <frosch123> makes it user-readable/debugable
20:32:04  <TrueBrain> the problem is that for 1500 files I have to ask the S3 backend what the full md5sum is
20:32:15  <TrueBrain> that makes it pretty expensive
20:32:26  <frosch123> how often do you need to do that?
20:33:06  <TrueBrain> on reload, was my current idea
20:33:17  <TrueBrain> so that would mean adding caches
20:33:26  <TrueBrain> meh .. it makes everything more complicated ... (encryption too btw)
20:33:30  <TrueBrain> I just want something simple :P
20:34:24  <nielsm> I'd suggest adding caches for the most common result sets at least
20:34:25  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenGFX] andythenorth updated pull request #34: Change: add missing nrt gui sprites https://git.io/JvEwo
20:34:26  <frosch123> how about, let dorpsgek have a private fork of the repository, and store the md5sums there in a separate yaml?
20:34:42  <TrueBrain> frosch123: I was considering something like that too :P
20:35:18  <frosch123> 20170101-1200.yaml is public 20170101-1200-secret.yaml is only in private fork
20:35:19  <TrueBrain> I agree with you that for debugging it would be nice if a partial of the md5sum is in the yaml, as that makes it easier to spot weird things
20:35:37  <TrueBrain> it does come with a risk .. but 32bit is still a huge space to scan
20:35:40  <TrueBrain> so that is fine by me
20:36:02  <TrueBrain> and I need somewhere (tm) that maps that partial to a full
20:36:08  <TrueBrain> and also tells me where on disk those files are
20:36:30  <frosch123> TrueBrain: the md5sum only needs to be unique per uniqueid, not globally, right?
20:36:35  <TrueBrain> yes
20:36:42  <TrueBrain> so collision chance is near-zero (just not zero :P)
20:36:42  <frosch123> so, 32bit is plenty
20:36:47  <TrueBrain> and yes, that too
20:37:01  <TrueBrain> on the webpage, I would like to have download links too
20:37:07  <frosch123> you can't even mess with other people and deliberately construct files with md5 that match their files
20:37:12  <TrueBrain> but we have to consider how scrapers go about that
20:37:50  <frosch123> website can list the file without md5, and redirect on request
20:38:18  <TrueBrain> not sure yet what is best; just something to keep in mind
20:39:12  <TrueBrain> so you upload a file, the partial md5 is written in the yaml, the file is send to the CDN, and somewhere else is written the partial to the full
20:39:57  <TrueBrain> it is like we need a database!
20:40:27  <LordAro> turns out git repos aren't perfect for everything? :p
20:40:37  <TrueBrain> not for secrets, strangely enough
20:41:18  <TrueBrain> tempted to simply write it in an AWS DynamoDB
20:41:22  <TrueBrain> crazy cheap
20:42:15  <TrueBrain> on the other hand ... this data doesn't change often, and if it changes, there are only things added
20:42:19  <TrueBrain> modifications don't happen
20:42:29  <TrueBrain> so .. why not just a single file on the S3 storage
20:42:39  <TrueBrain> uniqueid,md5-partial,md5
20:42:42  <TrueBrain> csv
20:43:23  <TrueBrain> and if we ban stuff, this list doesn't need updating .. as it only contains hashes
20:43:32  <TrueBrain> lol .. sometimes it takes a bit of time to dumb down a solution :P
20:44:04  <dwfreed> I'm still trying to figure out what problem you're trying to solve, and I really don't feel like reading 10 screens of scrollback to find it
20:44:24  <TrueBrain> we don't want the full md5sums in the GitHub repository
20:44:25  <nielsm> I think he's trying to avoid using a database for a problem that really wants a database
20:44:49  <dwfreed> TrueBrain: what problem does that solve, though?
20:44:57  <TrueBrain> nielsm: yes, that is very true :) The whole GitHub repository is used as database :) But that means everyone can modify it, instead of a select few :P
20:45:11  <TrueBrain> dwfreed: you wanted to know the problem we are solving! Not why we are solving it :P
20:45:21  <TrueBrain> no, basically, BaNaNaS database is going to a GitHub repository
20:45:26  <TrueBrain> https://gist.github.com/TrueBrain/34cd8e135b080621284b27ed8249aa9c
20:45:27  <TrueBrain> lke that
20:45:42  <TrueBrain> we don't want to store MD5s there, as that means it is very easy to download older versions of a GRF
20:45:55  <TrueBrain> and tha tis one promise we made to GRF authors, that it is not possible to do that without knowing the MD5 to start with
20:46:19  <TrueBrain> so: if you have a savegame with an old GRF, it is fine that you can download it
20:46:32  <TrueBrain> but you should not be able to go to a GitHub repository, click history, and be able to download it :)
20:46:49  <dwfreed> nothing prevents somebody from posting the old md5s on the internet, outside of bananas
20:46:50  <glx> the main idea is not make it super easy to download any file from bananas
20:47:02  <dwfreed> md5sum is a fact, and thus not copyrightable
20:47:08  <TrueBrain> dwfreed: nope; but I would consider it unlikely that being the case :)
20:47:29  <andythenorth> I hate this tram toolbar sprite
20:47:34  <andythenorth> GL with that :P
20:47:39  <TrueBrain> so now you know why are are looking for that solution :)
20:47:49  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenGFX] andythenorth updated pull request #34: Change: add missing nrt gui sprites https://git.io/JvEwo
20:48:26  <nielsm> dwfreed: true it's just a fact, but the terms of service offered are that only items the author wants discoverable are discoverable via the service itself
20:48:58  <glx> basically we don't want a trivial way to construct the download url
20:49:02  <TrueBrain> for some reason every time we are looking for a solution for this, people keep argueing if we should be doing this :D I do understand it, but it is not really helping :P :D
20:49:55  <TrueBrain> frosch123: hmm .. one more nasty side-case: a NewGRF that depends on a NewGRF that has a 32bpp/8bpp offering (so 2 downloads)
20:50:07  <TrueBrain> does the UI select them both?
20:50:19  <TrueBrain> no, the server resolves it ..
20:50:22  <TrueBrain> hmm .. so which to select?
20:50:23  <andythenorth> umm
20:50:34  <frosch123> TrueBrain: for comfort, it is only a old-people problem. noone who joined the community after bananas was already a thing, ever wanted to ban something
20:50:42  <andythenorth> have ogfx first 2 'build tram' toolbar icons always been broken?  Or just me
20:50:46  <TrueBrain> frosch123: truth! :D
20:51:02  <andythenorth> you didn't see simyoulater?
20:51:06  <andythenorth> and all those dramas?
20:51:10  <frosch123> TrueBrain: dependencies do not care about 32bpp/8bpp, both are the same for the dependency
20:51:21  <frosch123> TrueBrain: also, imho 32bpp/8bpp is something for later
20:51:23  <andythenorth> or the inevitable deletion of all canadian content from that other forum? :P
20:51:33  <TrueBrain> frosch123: yeah, but the server tells the client which of the two is the depdency .. so not sure what to do in that case :)
20:51:36  <TrueBrain> but okay, you are right
20:51:41  <TrueBrain> this is more a mental exercise than anything else
20:51:44  <andythenorth> urgh where are these frigging sprites :D
20:52:32  <TrueBrain> https://gist.github.com/TrueBrain/34cd8e135b080621284b27ed8249aa9c <- now with partial MD5s
20:52:47  <glx> client could tell its prefered flavour, but defaulting to 8bpp should work too
20:53:04  <TrueBrain> and I made a mistake MD5 is ofc 128bits .. so the search-space is 96bits .. lol .. good luck with brute-forcing that :D
20:53:06  <glx> smaller filesisze anyway
20:53:43  <dwfreed> TrueBrain: let me introduce you to my great friend the GPU cluster
20:53:52  <TrueBrain> dwfreed: it is .... online
20:53:55  <TrueBrain> so ... enjoy your cluster :)
20:54:10  <TrueBrain> you have to guess the URL between 2**96 combinations :)
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20:54:18  <andythenorth> was this always broken, or did I do it? https://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/9630/oof_tram.png
20:54:46  <LordAro> maybe
20:55:03  <TrueBrain> dwfreed: we give 32bit of the MD5sum. The rest is kept a secret. The URL is https://something/MD5.tar.gz
20:55:03  <glx> check the png on github ?
20:55:15  <andythenorth> the correct pngs are in the spritesheet
20:55:22  <andythenorth> I just don't know what released ogfx does
20:55:26  <andythenorth> I never use it, I hate it
20:55:50  <andythenorth> I guess I'll have to download ogfx :(
20:55:55  <andythenorth> where is it even?
20:56:00  <andythenorth> bundles?
20:56:14  <TrueBrain> https://cdn.openttd.org/opengfx-releases/
20:56:16  <andythenorth> google found it :P
20:56:19  <TrueBrain> pick a version :)
20:56:20  <andythenorth> we are well SEO-ed
20:56:34  <andythenorth> why was it never 1.0 also?
20:56:35  <andythenorth> nvm
20:56:36  <dwfreed> you just google openttd things a lot
20:56:51  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: good question
20:56:51  <andythenorth> maybe
20:57:05  <andythenorth> TrueBrain: I know why, it's not really a valid question :P
20:57:11  <andythenorth> because $reasons
20:57:19  <andythenorth> where does it go
20:57:22  * andythenorth reads the docs
20:57:29  <TrueBrain> so many reasons :P
20:58:03  <andythenorth> oh I can get it on bananas :o
20:58:08  <TrueBrain> duh
20:58:25  <LordAro> ...
20:58:38  <andythenorth> yeah this is a frigging faff
20:58:42  <andythenorth> nvm
20:58:53  <glx> there's also a bootstrap download if no baseset is present on the computer (but not for your OS I think)
20:58:54  <dwfreed> "Sorry, the most basic graphics set for OpenTTD isn't available on the CDN for OpenTTD graphics sets"
20:59:15  <TrueBrain> where do you read that?
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20:59:27  <dwfreed> TrueBrain: I made that up
20:59:31  <TrueBrain> ah ..
20:59:44  <TrueBrain> I don't get it, sorry :(
20:59:52  <andythenorth> I never use it, it's 50% crap
20:59:56  <andythenorth> it's 50% brilliant
20:59:59  <andythenorth> but the crap...
21:00:03  <nielsm> I think the condition for being able to download ogfx off bananas in bootstrap is that ottd is built with freetype and it can find a font to use
21:00:07  <nielsm> nothing else
21:00:08  <TrueBrain> so get to work you lazy bum :P
21:00:33  <TrueBrain> nielsm: bootstrap for all OSes need a bit of love :D
21:00:40  <frosch123> nielsm: there was a deadlock when ottd cannot find a suitable font, i don't think it was fixed
21:00:53  <nielsm> why can't we ship a sprite font? :/
21:01:08  <TrueBrain> like openttd.grf :)
21:01:14  <andythenorth> oh MF
21:01:29  <frosch123> or bundle liberation sans ?
21:01:31  <TrueBrain> or just download a baseset, even if you cannot find a font .. most likely it will work out just fine
21:01:40  <andythenorth> now I need a frigging tram set, but not an NRT set
21:01:48  <andythenorth> I need a whining channel :P
21:02:12  <frosch123> TrueBrain: ottd is from the "phoning home is bad" era. it never openes a network connection without user action
21:02:25  <andythenorth> ok apparently 2 of the build tram sprites have been broken forever
21:02:29  <glx> TrueBrain: but you are supposed to ask the user for valifation first, needing a working gui
21:02:45  <TrueBrain> I guess ... not unreasonable tbh
21:02:48  <TrueBrain> especially in this age and day
21:02:54  <andythenorth> using OpenTTD 1.8.0 and ofgx 0.5.5
21:03:09  <frosch123> andythenorth: your eyes are too trained. i never noticed that those sprites may be wrong
21:03:22  <andythenorth> you have to trigger them into 2x zoom somehow
21:03:25  <andythenorth> to really notice
21:03:43  <andythenorth> I have NFI how to test that but I will click stuff
21:03:52  <nielsm> use an OS-supplied GUI?
21:04:04  <nielsm> a stupid messagebox for windows, equivalent for mac
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21:04:12  <nielsm> not sure if SDL offers anything like that
21:04:34  <glx> for windows bootstrapping already works :)
21:04:40  <nielsm> right
21:04:50  <andythenorth> ok how do I find baseset sprite numbers?  The in-game sprite tool is no use for that
21:05:04  <frosch123> andythenorth: it'S actually the 2x zoom auto-tram sprite that is inconsistent
21:05:14  <andythenorth> arguably yes
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21:05:18  <frosch123> the 1x zoom sprite show the white middle line in all cases
21:05:30  <andythenorth> but I've used the auto-tram sprite in the new convert icon
21:06:09  <frosch123> well, i think many 2x sprites are vastly different to the 1x sprites. they originate from a different set
21:06:36  <andythenorth> the style is wildly different
21:06:39  <andythenorth> let's not worry about that :P
21:06:44  <frosch123> airport icon is compeltely different
21:07:09  <andythenorth> also gui2x contains the needed sprites, they just got missed
21:07:17  <andythenorth> or there is a never-merged commit or something
21:07:20  <glx> I'd say it was silly to merge 2 different styles for 1x and 2x
21:07:39  <frosch123> glx: you don't see them next to each other
21:07:41  <andythenorth> I think it's fine
21:07:43  <frosch123> so it doesn't really matter
21:07:48  <andythenorth> the fidelity on the 2x is much higher
21:07:57  <andythenorth> it was part of the whole high resolution UI thing
21:08:07  <andythenorth> remember when it was all going to be 32bpp EZ ?
21:08:20  <andythenorth> anyway, I need sprite numbers :P
21:08:28  <glx> but yes you're not supposed to see them side by side, unless some 2x are missing and default to zoomed 1x
21:09:46  <frosch123> hmm, 2200 already again :) i guess i cant be on irc if i want to get something done
21:09:51  <glx> I can search the numbers in the source
21:10:02  <andythenorth> oof frosch123 :)
21:10:33  <TrueBrain> frosch123: but we got a lot done! :D
21:12:14  <TrueBrain> okay, exporting of BaNaNaS data in the defined format works fine :)
21:12:19  <TrueBrain> no errors, etc
21:12:20  <TrueBrain> sweet
21:12:58  <LordAro> andythenorth: you can use zbase if you like :p
21:13:58  <frosch123> LordAro: andy is on reddit, so yes he likes zbase a lot
21:14:13  <andythenorth> did anything happen on reddit today?
21:14:15  <andythenorth> memes?
21:14:18  <andythenorth> jgrpp bingo?
21:14:40  <frosch123> someone posted a video builind a network on a completely flat and empty map
21:14:40  <TrueBrain> okay, so tomorrow I can wrap this up, add the HTTP part to ottd_content, and that should be done. Some code cleanup etc ... and after that .... HTML + Javascript .. ugh ... anyone else wants to do that part?
21:14:44  <TrueBrain> I suck at that ...
21:15:00  <andythenorth> it's too much like a day job for me :P
21:15:06  <nielsm> and... this is not the fabled bananas2, right?
21:15:11  <andythenorth> and I have zero tolerance for all the ideological debates
21:15:13  <TrueBrain> your dayjob is yelling at people andythenorth  :P
21:15:19  <TrueBrain> nielsm: it surely is not
21:15:33  <andythenorth> TrueBrain: mostly my day job is resisting yelling at people
21:15:36  <andythenorth> constantly
21:15:39  <TrueBrain> nielsm: this is a .... "different" v1, at best
21:16:07  <nielsm> just a banana-flavoured item shaped like a banana
21:16:09  <TrueBrain> well, pretty sure the user experience will improve :P But more importantly, it can run on a modern infrastructure \o/ :D
21:16:26  <andythenorth> glx: any joy?  The 1x sprites are drawn in sprites/png/gui/gui04.png but I can't find them used in ogfx src
21:16:27  <glx> andythenorth: 5979
21:16:30  <TrueBrain> and GitHub as authenticationt .. hmm ..
21:16:37  <andythenorth> have they ever worked?
21:16:52  <andythenorth> I wonder if they're falling back to openttd.grf
21:17:25  <TrueBrain> what will be cool, it is easy to make a notification now when someone uploaded a new version of your favorite GRF :P
21:17:35  <TrueBrain> THE POTENTIAL IS ENDLESS
21:17:44  <andythenorth> so much POTENTIAL
21:18:09  <andythenorth> everything I touch on ogfx seems to make 2 new things to do :)
21:18:13  <frosch123> TrueBrain: i want to try python3-requests-oauthlib this weekend
21:18:15  <andythenorth> does this continue, or get better? :P
21:18:21  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: I know the feeling :D I had the same with ogfx :P
21:18:32  <TrueBrain> frosch123: that exists?! :o
21:18:48  <frosch123> yes, it is kind of new in debian stable
21:18:54  <andythenorth> zero people are making PRs for opengfx?
21:19:06  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: I did enough PR-work in ogfx ffs :P
21:19:13  <frosch123> two years ago all oauth2 libs were crap
21:19:18  <andythenorth> I mean drive-by contributions
21:19:45  <andythenorth> FIRS probably has more drive-by contributors than ogfx, yet it's the baseset for most players
21:19:57  <andythenorth> just weird is all
21:20:04  <frosch123> andythenorth: i see zbase more often than ogfx
21:20:08  <andythenorth> plausible
21:20:13  <TrueBrain> frosch123: https://requests-oauthlib.readthedocs.io/en/latest/oauth2_workflow.html that looks decent :o
21:20:15  <frosch123> and zbase has tons of missing sprites for years
21:20:27  <frosch123> TrueBrain: yep :)
21:20:28  <andythenorth> also, players who think ogx looks nice don't really have visual acuity
21:20:44  <frosch123> TrueBrain: anyway, copy my code, or let my copy your code
21:21:07  <TrueBrain> I will copy yours :P
21:21:13  <TrueBrain> I have plenty of other code to write :D
21:21:22  <TrueBrain> but I agree, lets not both do this ;)
21:21:27  <frosch123> andythenorth: no, players who think original look nice, are just used to its noisyness
21:22:33  <andythenorth> oof
21:22:40  <andythenorth> so tempting to rewrite the whole damn thing
21:22:49  <TrueBrain> resist!
21:22:54  <TrueBrain> improve, don't rewrite!
21:22:55  <TrueBrain> :P
21:23:24  <frosch123> andythenorth: don't work on stuff you don't use, it's not rewarding
21:23:32  <TrueBrain> frosch123: in general, I am really curious about your new eints code. Let me know when it works etc, would love to copy that :D
21:23:54  <andythenorth> frosch123: too true :)
21:24:33  <glx> andythenorth: https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenGFX/blob/master/sprites/png/infrastructure/infra08.png it seems
21:24:38  <frosch123> well, i already now that new eints is only a step to newnew eints. i am sure you will request a version without need for persistent local file storage
21:24:53  <glx> andythenorth: 1339 and 1340
21:25:09  <TrueBrain> frosch123: persistent? Most likely :D What does it store persistently?
21:25:18  <andythenorth> glx hurrah
21:25:33  <glx> and https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenGFX/blob/master/sprites/extra/extra-tram-tracks.pnml
21:25:51  <andythenorth> I was looking for 378 and 380 here https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenGFX/blob/master/sprites/png/gui/gui04.png
21:25:58  <andythenorth> or 379
21:26:09  <andythenorth> fuck knows how the sprite numbering is supposed to avoid reading errors
21:26:11  <frosch123> TrueBrain: albert had a different vision for eints, and designed it without vcs in mind. so eints stores translation history in its own files, and vcs is more like a mirror of that
21:26:13  <andythenorth> or what those sprite numbers mean
21:26:27  <frosch123> so if you delete eints local files, all history is lost
21:26:53  <glx> numbers in ogfx png really means nothing I think
21:27:22  <frosch123> yes, they mean nothing
21:27:38  <andythenorth> so I am pointless diligently extending them as I add sprites
21:27:38  <TrueBrain> frosch123: ah; but the history doesn't really mean anything, does it?
21:27:48  <andythenorth> but they're just bullshit from grfcodec decompiles?
21:27:48  <TrueBrain> or is that used by users?
21:28:13  <glx> and they should have split the png by action 5, or whatever
21:28:14  <frosch123> somewhat, yes
21:28:16  <TrueBrain> anyway, a bit of persistent storage is not the worst; just less ideal. But I can attach an EFS to a container and have persistent storage :)
21:28:18  <andythenorth> I wrote a thing for Horse that finds sprites and re-lays them out
21:28:21  <andythenorth> consistently
21:28:27  <TrueBrain> it just means there wont be any replicas running :)
21:28:29  <andythenorth> without all this weird crap
21:28:44  * andythenorth steps away from change
21:29:12  <andythenorth> super, the sprite number is a constant TRAMWAY
21:29:19  <frosch123> andythenorth: some spritesheets also contain wip sprites, or components that were used to compose sprites
21:29:20  <andythenorth> but that's not defined :)
21:29:21  <andythenorth> lolz
21:29:28  <glx> it's 0B
21:29:32  <andythenorth> hurrah
21:29:39  <glx> action 5 type 0B
21:30:11  <andythenorth> I need to convert that to a decimal for alternative_sprites I think
21:30:25  <glx> it's in the docs :) https://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/NML:Replace_new_sprites
21:31:04  <andythenorth> ta
21:31:05  <andythenorth> oh
21:31:14  <andythenorth> so the 2x sprite format is
21:31:15  <andythenorth> alternative_sprites (ottd_gui179, ZOOM_LEVEL_IN_2X, BIT_DEPTH_8BPP) { tmpl_gui2x_file_toolbar(626, 776, "sprites/png/gui/gui2x.png") }
21:31:31  <andythenorth> but I don't know how to reference 'replacenew(TRAMWAY, "sprites/png/infrastructure/infra08.png")'
21:31:48  <andythenorth> and I've only got two sprites to replace
21:32:06  <andythenorth> but TRAMWAY has 113 or so
21:32:14  <glx> I think you can split TRAMWAY
21:32:39  <glx> offset is allowed there
21:32:50  <frosch123> andythenorth: you insert an identifier before the (
21:33:01  <frosch123> https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenGFX/blob/master/sprites/extra/extra-openttd-gui.pnml#L2 <- like there
21:33:11  <andythenorth> cool thanks
21:34:10  <frosch123> note how that file splits the replacenew into two ranges
21:34:18  <frosch123> those with 2x sprites, and those without
21:34:44  <andythenorth> so https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenGFX/blob/master/sprites/extra/extra-openttd-gui.pnml#L49
21:34:48  <andythenorth> the 38 is an offset?
21:34:56  <andythenorth> I did replacenew ottd_tramway2(TRAMWAY + 2, "sprites/png/infrastructure/infra08.png") {
21:35:00  <andythenorth> which is wrong then :)
21:35:06  <glx> you only need to replace the first 2 sprites
21:35:12  <andythenorth> yes
21:35:14  <frosch123> yes, ottd_gui1 contains sprites 0-37, then the next block starts at 38
21:35:27  <frosch123> actually, there are more than 2 blocks, there are dozens in that file
21:35:29  <glx> replacenew [<block-name>](<type>, [<image-file>[, <offset>]]) {
21:35:29  <glx>     list of realsprites
21:35:29  <glx> }
21:35:35  <glx> read the doc
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21:35:49  <andythenorth> controversial :P
21:36:23  <glx> or just look how it's done in extra-openttd-gui
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21:37:42  <andythenorth> hurrah, fixed thanks :)
21:38:23  <glx> you name the existing block, keeping the to first sprites in it, then add a new block (no name needed) with an offset of 2
21:38:25  <andythenorth> https://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/9631/no-oof-tram.png
21:38:32  <andythenorth> I wonder what I broke :P
21:38:35  <andythenorth> seems ok though
21:38:45  <andythenorth> do I have to test all other tram sprites? :P
21:39:16  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenGFX] andythenorth updated pull request #34: Change: add missing nrt gui sprites https://git.io/JvEwo
21:39:44  <andythenorth> https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenGFX/blob/e18a5959fc7b3b7d0a06d2c54a5eee9b37a27105/sprites/extra/extra-tram-tracks.pnml
21:42:35  <glx> if cursors are concerned with 2x you should also replace sprites 2 and 3 :)
21:44:01  <andythenorth> they seem to be 1x afaict
21:44:10  <andythenorth> oof ogfx tram depot is not same size as default :P
21:44:12  <andythenorth> more lol
21:44:16  <andythenorth> nvm
21:45:47  * andythenorth hopes no-one ever tries to maintain FIRS
21:45:50  <andythenorth> there would be .... comments
21:46:45  <glx> ahah I think I looked at FIRS files and ran away
21:47:59  <andythenorth> it's a one-person project :P
21:48:00  <andythenorth> classic
21:48:16  <frosch123> andythenorth: modern depot sprites allow building multiple depots in a row/column, to make the depot look bigger
21:48:33  <frosch123> all newgrf have done that for 10+ years. original graphics are the only one who dont
21:49:17  <andythenorth> ogfx uses smaller bounding boxes though
21:49:23  <andythenorth> (blue area)
21:49:30  <andythenorth> nvm
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21:52:35  <andythenorth> now how to test :D
21:52:42  *** gelignite has quit IRC
21:53:05  <andythenorth> commit this? :P https://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/9632/probably_wrong.png
21:54:48  <glx> hmm the building doesn't seem to be on its concrete spot
21:55:17  <andythenorth> "feature not bug"
21:57:09  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenGFX] andythenorth updated pull request #34: Change: add missing nrt gui sprites https://git.io/JvEwo
21:57:32  *** frosch123 has quit IRC
21:57:41  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenGFX] andythenorth commented on pull request #34: Change: add missing nrt gui sprites https://git.io/JvuNL
21:58:19  <andythenorth> probably done
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22:01:49  <andythenorth> should I go see Greta? https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-bristol-51649275
22:02:22  <andythenorth> oof, no parking though :P
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22:12:58  <TrueBrain> yes, go, make pictures, share!
22:14:23  <andythenorth> probably visible from my office TBH :P
22:14:35  <TrueBrain> nice :D
22:16:39  <Samu> greta was debunked
22:16:41  <Samu> fake
22:17:43  *** tokai|noir has quit IRC
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22:19:33  <andythenorth> now I have to go :P
22:19:37  <andythenorth> to see if she is real
22:19:45  <andythenorth> or animatronic
22:19:49  <TrueBrain> at least that remark of S explains so much
22:19:57  <TrueBrain> :P
22:20:05  <TrueBrain> make sure to report back to us andythenorth  :P
22:20:07  <andythenorth> I suspect, on balance, the internet is a negative force
22:20:19  <TrueBrain> remember that if you say she is real, you are part of the consperency
22:20:22  <andythenorth> my taxi driver told me this morning that Covid was manufactured
22:20:28  <andythenorth> to keep China's population down
22:20:38  <andythenorth> it always fails the simplicity test :P
22:20:44  <TrueBrain> I read today that it was manufactured to get Trump out of the office
22:20:52  <andythenorth> awesome
22:21:41  <TrueBrain> (yes, someone really was thinking that ....)
22:21:41  <TrueBrain> yeah ... there is a chance we will be wipedout because stupidity won
22:22:06  <andythenorth> 'ever thus'
22:23:24  <andythenorth> so is everything ready for 1.10 LordAro? o_O
22:23:33  <andythenorth> does anyone except pm know how to release nml?
22:23:49  <LordAro> there's a couple of pathfinder things i'd like to see fixed
22:24:19  <andythenorth> when's code freeze? :)
22:24:38  <LordAro> feature freeze was RC1
22:24:44  <TrueBrain> just before release andythenorth  :P
22:25:04  <LordAro> could be RC2, i guess
22:25:48  <LordAro> would be nice if someone made a title game
22:26:01  <LordAro> since apparently no one cares enough to do a competition this year
22:26:05  <LordAro> (myself included)
22:26:21  <glx> already 14 PRs to backport
22:27:16  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD-git-hooks] LordAro merged pull request #5: Improve diagnostics from commit checker https://git.io/Jv0b0
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22:28:53  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenGFX] LordAro commented on pull request #34: Change: add missing nrt gui sprites https://git.io/JvuAO
22:29:23  <LordAro> someone should review #8006 :p
22:29:39  <glx> it's huge
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22:30:17  <TrueBrain> LordAro: -1, bad commit message
22:30:22  <TrueBrain> "only store 1024 news message"
22:30:26  <TrueBrain> like ... yeah ... that is not helpful at all!
22:30:28  <TrueBrain> :P
22:31:05  <TrueBrain> what does it solve? Why 1024? Why limit it? Etc etc :D
22:31:35  <glx> ignore the title, the most important thing is the other commit in it
22:31:51  <TrueBrain> I ignored the title, and was bitching about the commit message :P
22:32:01  <LordAro> They could be split up fairly easily, tbh
22:32:02  <TrueBrain> "Limit the amount of news messages to avoid overwhelming the user"? :D
22:32:12  <LordAro> TrueBrain: that's exactly what i was just writing
22:32:15  <TrueBrain> :D
22:32:21  <LordAro> (more or less)
22:32:23  <TrueBrain> I HACKED YOUR COMPUTER :P
22:32:30  <TrueBrain> (no, I did not)
22:32:57  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenGFX] andythenorth commented on pull request #34: Change: add missing nrt gui sprites https://git.io/JvuAg
22:33:57  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenGFX] LordAro approved pull request #34: Change: add missing nrt gui sprites https://git.io/JvuAr
22:34:36  <TrueBrain> YOLO review best review :D Couldn't have done it better tbh :)
22:36:08  <andythenorth> did you build it LordAro :P
22:36:12  <LordAro> the CI did
22:36:19  <andythenorth> close enough
22:36:22  <LordAro> and i trust that you tested it
22:36:24  <TrueBrain> you got to love CI :)
22:36:32  <andythenorth> I tested what I changed
22:36:38  <TrueBrain> we do need to add a 'git status' to see if the PNGs are unchanged after GIMP btw
22:36:41  <TrueBrain> but not sure how yet
22:36:42  <andythenorth> I didn't test I didn't break ALL THE TRAM SRPITES
22:36:53  <LordAro> seems unlikely
22:36:56  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenGFX] andythenorth merged pull request #34: Change: add missing nrt gui sprites https://git.io/JvEwo
22:36:59  <LordAro> probably
22:37:18  <glx> ah yes a way to ensure new png are commited
22:37:32  <TrueBrain> exactly
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22:38:47  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro updated pull request #8006: Only store 1024 news messages https://git.io/Jv8Vk
22:39:12  <TrueBrain> <3 commitmessage :)
22:39:15  <LordAro> :)
22:39:35  <LordAro> if preferred, the change commit should be backportable on its own, if you don't want the scrollbar changes
22:39:44  <LordAro> (which weren't hugely tested, i'll be honest)
22:39:58  <TrueBrain> so split it :)
22:40:05  <TrueBrain> if you already aren't really sure ..
22:40:07  <TrueBrain> why risk it :)
22:40:40  <LordAro> because i have no issues with breaking master in some edgecases :p
22:40:45  <glx> I think the scrollbar stuff should be in a separate PRs
22:40:51  <LordAro> *fine*
22:40:53  <LordAro> :p
22:41:45  <TrueBrain> breaking master is fine, but making backports more difficult less so :P And we know .. lazy ... I would be lazy too :D
22:41:46  <glx> it probably works fine, but who knows
22:42:21  <LordAro> i wouldn't say it'd be more difficult...
22:42:52  <TrueBrain> it assumes brains on the side of the backporter! THE HORROR!
22:42:52  <LordAro> perhaps ever so slightly easier to miss a big comment saying "Only backport this commit, not the other"
22:42:55  <glx> if someone else backports the PR both commit may be included
22:43:14  <LordAro> the commits would have to be individually cherry-picked regardless
22:43:33  <LordAro> and besides, it would be caught in the review :p
22:43:38  <LordAro> as all things are
22:43:50  <glx> yeah we never fail a review
22:43:55  <glx> it's known :)
22:46:05  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro updated pull request #8006: Only store 1024 news messages https://git.io/Jv8Vk
22:47:06  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro opened pull request #8026: Change: Keep News Window usable by only storing the 1024 latest news messages https://git.io/JvuxJ
22:48:06  <LordAro> better? :p
22:49:54  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 approved pull request #8026: Change: Keep News Window usable by only storing the 1024 latest news messages https://git.io/Jvuxk
22:50:11  <glx> this one is easy to review, and it's trivial :)
22:50:16  <LordAro> :)
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22:50:48  <glx> just a moved function and an extra check
22:54:49  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 commented on issue #8024: "Check Online Content" lags the UI https://git.io/Jvuyj
22:56:24  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on issue #8024: "Check Online Content" lags the UI https://git.io/Jvuyj
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23:41:57  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on pull request #8006: Codechange: Increase scrollbar length limit to UINT_MAX and make their length properly unsigned https://git.io/Jvup0
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