Log for #openttd on 13th March 2020:
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07:20:50  <andythenorth> yo
07:22:26  <peter1138> yes
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08:08:32  <andythenorth> cycling in?
08:08:35  <andythenorth> or wfh?
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09:25:23  <peter1138> I cycled in, yes.
09:25:47  <peter1138> THere are, sadly, cake slices and Gregg's doughnuts in the office as it's somebody's birthday.
09:26:10  <peter1138> I nearly succumbed to a doughnut at 9:15 but... reality came back.
09:26:11  <andythenorth> sadly / not sadly /s
09:26:24  <andythenorth> I will mostly be doing SEO today
09:26:25  <peter1138> I'm still struggling with snacking :(
09:31:28  <peter1138> We've got some really cheap laptops in that don't have caps-lock keys.
09:31:32  <peter1138> Apparently there are quite a few users who use caps-lock to enter individual caps, as they don't know about the shift key...
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09:53:52  <Samu> hi
09:56:19  <Samu> so today I'm going to try reproduce the bug of yesterday
09:56:31  <Samu> so far it's been inconsistent
09:56:45  <Samu> sometimes it happens, sometimes it's behaving correclty
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10:07:20  <Samu> damn, the thing is really inconsistent, I can't find a patern that reliably reproduces it
10:07:24  <Samu> what should I do?
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11:25:00  <Samu> ok, i got somewhere, i found the bug comes from the neighbour tiles
11:25:03  <Samu>
11:25:32  <Samu> the map size is 256x256, yet that line produces this: 0x00007ff73efbaa28 {-64, 1, 64, -1}
11:25:53  <Samu> it should be {-256, 1, 256, -1}
11:25:59  <Samu> why does that happen?
11:34:51  <Samu> what is static doing? seems that static is the error
11:35:31  <Samu> tried removing static, and i can't have it trigger the bug
11:36:20  <_dp_> it is indeed
11:36:24  <_dp_> as well as const
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11:39:04  <Samu> seems static was the problem
11:39:17  <Samu> can't trigger the bug anymore
11:39:35  <Samu> but it's been inconsistent, sometimes it happens, sometimes it doesn't, i need to make sure
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11:48:21  <Samu> no longer triggering
11:50:26  <dwfreed> static within function scope means that the variable is defined once at the first invocation of the function, and the value of the variable persists between calls
11:53:30  <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick opened pull request #8036: Fix: [AI/GS] CanBuildConnectedRoadPartsHere neighbours tiles were at times incorrect
11:53:42  <Samu> my noob explanation, :o
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12:43:45  <andythenorth> quiet eh
12:43:48  * andythenorth is hungry
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13:20:32  <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 approved pull request #8036: Fix: [AI/GS] CanBuildConnectedRoadPartsHere neighbours tiles were at times incorrect
13:23:54  <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] ldpl commented on pull request #8036: Fix: [AI/GS] CanBuildConnectedRoadPartsHere neighbours tiles were at times incorrect
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13:29:25  <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 merged pull request #8028: Codechange: [AzurePipelines] Update MacOS image to 10.14
13:29:30  <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on pull request #8028: Codechange: [AzurePipelines] Update MacOS image to 10.14
13:54:14  <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro merged pull request #8036: Fix: [AI/GS] CanBuildConnectedRoadPartsHere neighbours tiles were at times incorrect
13:54:44  <Wolf01> this is both the best one and the worst one I've found so far
13:55:56  <LordAro> Samu: nice catch
13:56:13  <Samu> oh, thanks
13:57:00  <Samu> it really affects how the routes are built
13:57:13  <Samu> there's decisions based on it with pathfinder
13:57:29  <Samu> it's gonna change many other AIs as well
13:57:49  <LordAro> would it?
13:57:49  <Samu> hopefully for the better
13:58:01  <Wolf01> Broken every other AI
13:58:17  <Samu> i would say, corrected
13:58:20  <LordAro> it would only be broken if you changed save (to a different map size) while using the same instance of OTTD
13:58:21  <Samu> not broken
13:58:28  <LordAro> i can't imagine many people would be doing that
13:58:54  <Samu> how many Ais use the road pathfinder library?
13:59:05  <Samu> all those will be affected
13:59:09  <Samu> corrected*
13:59:21  <LordAro> yes, if you play multiple saves with the same OTTD
13:59:25  <LordAro> not otherwise
13:59:35  <LordAro> same OTTD instance
13:59:35  <LordAro> *
14:00:44  <Wolf01> Like when I reported a bug in the try..catch construct of the framework we use at work, inside the same function it worked fine, if you use the try..catch in the caller and raised the exception in the called, in the caller you won't get the exception number (always 0). They won't fix it because "it always worked like that and now is too late to fix it"...
14:01:55  <LordAro> "it's not a bug, it 's a feature"
14:02:06  <LordAro> always annoying when that happens
14:02:21  <LordAro> though if there's anything relying on that behaviour...
14:02:22  <LordAro> ew
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14:05:28  <Samu> seems to be that case here
14:05:41  <Samu> if the other Ais expect the old behaviour, then it's trouble
14:05:45  <Samu> :(
14:05:53  <Samu> the buggy behaviour :|
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14:09:13  <Wolf01> They even made some of the functions work the way they needed and not the way they expected, an example is the collection loop, if you flag as "deleted" one object in the collection then you won't find it in the loop, that's because is how the UI works, they needed to add a "show deleted" property to the collection just to be able to use it in the code
14:09:42  <andythenorth> this is how real software works
14:09:49  <andythenorth> as made by people
14:09:51  <andythenorth> not book authors
14:10:16  <Wolf01> Yes, but people may have other needs
14:10:53  <Wolf01> And if you go "out of standard" because you need it that way, then is toothache after a while
14:11:02  <andythenorth> then they will have regrets
14:11:05  <andythenorth> regrets are common
14:11:14  <LordAro> computers were a mistake
14:11:16  <LordAro> this is known
14:11:18  <andythenorth> there is a common patter
14:11:22  <andythenorth> pattern *
14:11:28  <andythenorth> software -> regret -> more software
14:11:33  <andythenorth> [repeat]
14:11:42  <Wolf01> Last time I asked for support they answered "you already know these things better than us"
14:11:54  <andythenorth> Wolf01: what are you doing then if you can't work?
14:11:57  <Samu> wondering how the rail got this, probably also bugged?
14:12:05  <Samu> let me check rail code
14:12:28  <Wolf01> andythenorth: I'm on vacation, then netflix and some games, a lot of sleep too
14:12:46  <andythenorth> openttd!
14:13:00  <Wolf01> I don't know if I'm ready for that
14:13:58  <andythenorth> non-track station tiles on corners :P
14:14:12  <Wolf01> I already did that
14:14:17  <andythenorth> corner slopes
14:14:22  <Wolf01> Even that
14:14:50  <Wolf01> It just needs to be ported to master
14:15:10  <Wolf01> BTW, monday I'll have a videocall for a consultation for the base structure of our next software, so I might start to do some homeworks
14:15:31  <Samu> rail doesn't have an equivalent function, just checked :o
14:15:37  <Samu> let me check water
14:15:37  <andythenorth> hmm SEO
14:15:41  <andythenorth> 'page title too short'
14:15:56  <Wolf01> (multi-tenant or single-tenant+catalog application)
14:16:33  <Samu> checked marine, also doesn't have an equivalent function
14:20:22  <Samu> there are 2 more statics in script_road.cpp, but these don't seem to be trouble
14:20:35  <Samu> line 238, 243
14:30:51  <Samu> here's an example how it affects
14:30:53  <Samu> [img][/img]
14:31:03  <Samu> same route, different paths
14:38:10  <Samu> gonna check other AIs than mine, how do they do now
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14:52:39  <Samu> it's strange, it made no difference for AroAI
14:57:28  <Samu> now I wonder why
14:57:32  <Samu> heh
14:57:52  <Samu> maybe the road pathfinder doesn't use the function?
15:04:04  <Samu> ah, it uses it incorrectly
15:04:23  <Samu> AIRoad.CanBuildConnectedRoadPartsHere(cur_node, path.GetParent().GetTile(), next_tile)
15:04:33  <Samu> if the result is -1, it's still true
15:12:17  <Samu> this is really weird
15:12:48  <Samu> looks like i found another bug
15:13:15  <Samu> look at the values of the 2 "end" variables [img][/img]
15:14:02  <Samu> they're not TileIndexes
15:15:23  <Samu> it still gets the correct value of -1
15:15:27  <Samu> surprisingly
15:21:05  <Samu> maybe not a bug
15:21:36  <Samu> it's converting from uint to int
15:21:45  <Samu> and it seems to be doing it correctly
15:26:48  <Samu> very few AIs use this function correctly
15:27:07  <Samu> the majority accepts -1 as true
15:30:32  <Samu> Pathfinder.Road-3 is for some weird reason is testing with start tile being the same as the end tile
15:31:05  <Samu> this returns -1, which ends up as true
15:32:30  <Samu> many many AIs use Pathfinder.Road-3 / Pathfinder.Road-4 libraries
15:32:48  <Samu> the library itself is bugged
15:32:52  <Samu> even superlib
15:36:10  <Samu> ah, i see why the pathfinder gives start tile the same as the end tile
15:36:29  <Samu> it's looking at all neighours of the current tile
15:37:01  <Samu> one of the neighours is the same as the previous tile
15:38:02  <Samu> CanBuildConnectedRoadsHere returns -1, in which it's accepted as true... no real harm here, but whatever...
15:38:57  <Samu> it's an invalid neighbour, shouldn't be taken into consideration
15:39:22  <Samu> it's a matter of a road vehicle walk backwards
15:39:38  <Samu> it doesn't do that, so the neighbour shouldn't be considered
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16:22:18  <Samu> ok, enough of this
16:22:52  <Samu> the library is just accepting every tile as valid
16:22:58  <Samu> forget about it
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17:27:28  <andythenorth> well
17:27:58  <andythenorth> LordAro: :)
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17:40:48  <andythenorth> these trucks are awesome
17:40:52  <andythenorth> I should make an RV set
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17:49:10  <andythenorth> trucks in that video so nice :)
17:50:57  <LordAro> andythenorth: :)
17:52:05  <frosch123> is it advantageous when the trailer is longer than the engine?
17:52:07  <LordAro> that's actually a really nice set of guidelines
18:02:44  <andythenorth> based on planetmaker's 1.9 I believe
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18:52:54  <andythenorth> so if you were a reddit user
18:53:07  <andythenorth> and someone said 'get Iron Horse from content downloader'
18:53:15  <andythenorth> which grf would you download?
18:53:16  <andythenorth>
18:54:51  <frosch123> all of them?
18:55:36  <frosch123> do other games also have addons for addons?
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18:56:28  <glx> I guess openttd manages dependencies :)
18:58:56  <andythenorth> you do? o_O
18:59:44  <andythenorth> same if you want FIRS
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19:02:31  <nielsm> nice, the danish borders are closed from tomorrow and one month forward
19:02:42  * andythenorth wonders about all this
19:02:52  <TrueBrain> I wonder if they will put up walls again :P
19:03:13  <frosch123> i also joined homeoffice club :)
19:03:29  <andythenorth> curious if UK will manage to hold the current line
19:03:35  <andythenorth> or if Sunday newspapers will force a change
19:03:57  <nielsm> we're all gonna get infected anyway might as well make it quick
19:04:11  <TrueBrain> working from home is really boring, I noticed ...
19:04:19  <TrueBrain> nielsm: euh .. no, please lets not do that ;)
19:04:19  <andythenorth> there are all kinds of guides for it
19:04:35  <andythenorth> Friday has been a bonza day for content marketing around covid
19:04:46  <andythenorth> twitter had all kinds of 'guide to x' from bloggers
19:04:57  <andythenorth> I had to stop reading
19:05:04  <andythenorth> but then that applies to twitter every day also
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19:08:53  <frosch123> <- that's a quite detailed post, which my boss'boss'boss shared
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19:09:32  <TrueBrain> we got it shared too :P
19:09:53  <TrueBrain> it is a very nice article .. I liked the "chart 7" the most :D
19:10:08  <TrueBrain> just never realised that
19:10:18  <andythenorth> that's the one I mentioned yesterday
19:10:22  <andythenorth> it went round a lot of the UK
19:10:23  <andythenorth> so
19:10:26  <andythenorth> 1.
19:10:31  <andythenorth> people will die anyway
19:10:32  <andythenorth> 2.
19:10:42  <andythenorth> the guy is a professional speech writer / blogger
19:11:05  <andythenorth> not a virologist, epidemiologist, public health professional, or even elected politician
19:11:08  <andythenorth> 3.
19:11:17  <andythenorth> put charts in anything, people believe it's science
19:11:34  <andythenorth> but he's done well on ambulance chasing
19:12:39  <frosch123> well, the key message is, slow the spreading to reduce the peek impact
19:12:46  <frosch123> which sounds plausible
19:13:12  <andythenorth> he has no skin in the game
19:13:17  <andythenorth> the real issue is winter 2020
19:13:22  <andythenorth> through to 2021
19:13:34  <andythenorth> a certain number of people with underlying health conditions are going to die anywya
19:13:39  <andythenorth> whether we panic or not
19:14:18  <frosch123> are you trying to predict the influenca of the next season?
19:14:30  * andythenorth tends to agree with the UK's public health approach, which seems to be an outlier
19:15:52  <frosch123> what does uk health staff say?
19:16:05  <andythenorth> the UK appears to be modelling that this is unstoppable fundamentally, sans vaccine
19:16:15  <andythenorth> it will keep recurring until there's population immunity
19:16:26  <andythenorth> there's a concept in epidemiology around r
19:16:37  <andythenorth> can't remember the details, we used it for a study on viral games / films
19:16:49  <andythenorth> and what goes linear or exponential
19:17:07  <frosch123> yes, it levels at around 70%
19:17:12  <frosch123> noone is disputing that
19:17:31  <frosch123> but it still makes a difference how fast you arrive at the 70%
19:17:41  <andythenorth> not really
19:17:50  <andythenorth> the healthcare system is overwhelmed at much lower numbers
19:18:28  <andythenorth> based on what doctors I know report, I'm guessing maybe even single digits overwhelms current healthcare
19:19:12  <andythenorth> so the UK approach appears to be, save the social distancing for the height of the epidemic
19:19:26  <andythenorth> instead of confining everyone indoors when ~no-one has it
19:19:45  <andythenorth> population won't comply with 10-14 weeks of quarantine, then again from September through March 2021
19:19:58  <andythenorth> and we don't have the law enforcement capacity to enforce it
19:21:14  <andythenorth> anyway, it will be interesting to live inside an experiment
19:21:21  <frosch123> ok, so the uk idea is to reach a defined spread speed, and it considers current speed too slow
19:21:55  <frosch123> andythenorth: you are already living in that other experiment for 3 years
19:23:35  <andythenorth> I think UK is just realistic about how much public will comply
19:23:38  <TrueBrain> lol .. I rather be part of a system that at least tries to do something about everyone dying, than a system that says: fuck it, they are dead already :P
19:24:15  <andythenorth> TrueBrain: based on social media here (until I closed the browser windows), a lot of UK public agrees
19:24:37  <andythenorth> so if Sunday newspapers create a lot of fuss, scientific view will probably be pushed aside
19:24:49  <andythenorth> (agrees with you)
19:25:35  <TrueBrain> I am happy I can do my part by working from home :) And happy I have a boss and manager that makes that possible too :)
19:25:52  <TrueBrain> (especially given my job is visiting clients :P)
19:26:01  <andythenorth> we might stop visiting clients
19:26:15  <andythenorth> I think it's overkill, but realistically they will start cancelling soon
19:26:19  <TrueBrain> it is currently up to our clients .. I am guessing that will change soon too :)
19:26:49  <andythenorth> wife didn't go to Amsterdam, everything closed :P
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19:27:37  <andythenorth> apparently European flights are very cheap right now though
19:28:14  <TrueBrain> yeah .. would be a surprise if airliners survive :)
19:28:30  <andythenorth> that hotel in Tenerife that got quarantined, it's good, I've stayed next to it
19:28:35  <andythenorth> probably very cheap right now
19:29:22  <frosch123> TrueBrain: politics always saves big companies on the first occassion
19:29:38  <andythenorth> not sure it will for airlines
19:29:39  <frosch123> and for unknown reasons airlines count as big companies
19:29:40  <TrueBrain> frosch123: yeah ..
19:30:01  <andythenorth> on the plus side, it gives us delay of 6 months carbon output
19:30:34  <milek7> there they bail out national airline every few years
19:30:57  <andythenorth> frosch123: so is germany locked down?
19:31:05  <andythenorth> 'locked down' such a broad term :P
19:31:12  <andythenorth> so widely used last 2 days
19:31:26  <frosch123> andythenorth: it's a federal country, every state does what they want
19:31:38  <frosch123> one announced to close schools next week for 4 weeks
19:31:44  <frosch123> that caused others to follow
19:31:46  <frosch123> not sure how many
19:31:55  <andythenorth> it becomes a race to look active
19:32:04  <andythenorth> closing schools kills grandparents apparently
19:32:13  <andythenorth> not sure if the evidence supports that, but it's an assertion made
19:32:48  <andythenorth> kids are an asympomatic vector, parents have to work, grandparents do childcare, grandparents die
19:32:50  <frosch123> my company canceled most events 2 weeks ago, and now they told everyone using public transport to go to home office
19:33:03  <frosch123> which leaves people not using public transport upset :p
19:33:10  <andythenorth> oof
19:33:18  <frosch123> but not sure what stops them claiming they would use public transport
19:33:41  <andythenorth> it's funny how big a deal home working is still
19:33:51  <andythenorth> Twitter was full of smug people like me how are set up for home working
19:34:12  <andythenorth> then both my broadband and 4G went slow while I was updating a production site
19:34:14  <andythenorth> less smug
19:35:01  <andythenorth> also we had to assess our vendors :(
19:35:09  <andythenorth> because we can remotely work, but can they?
19:35:13  <andythenorth> what if a rack goes down?
19:35:22  <frosch123> andythenorth: anyway, public opinion tends toward: all neighbouring countries have harsher measures, why not we
19:35:24  <andythenorth> the apocalypse will come with a lot of paperwork
19:35:31  <debdog> lol
19:35:56  <andythenorth> frosch123: in the UK, I think we are used to voting for lower social well being in favour of some small number of people getting richer
19:36:03  <andythenorth> we've been doing it for century or more
19:36:15  <andythenorth> it's a tradition
19:37:39  <andythenorth> 'what is your SLA response time in the event of societal collapse'
19:39:12  <andythenorth> 'please describe how do you notify customers if you become aware of civilisational threat'
19:39:31  <milek7> I doubt closing borders have much sense now
19:39:42  <milek7> at this point it just spreads locally
19:39:43  <andythenorth> 'do you give service credits in the event that the contract cannot be delivered due to apocalypse'
19:39:56  <andythenorth> milek7: +1, but it appeals to people eh
19:40:14  <andythenorth> much easier to blame it on external actors, simple political gambit
19:40:25  <andythenorth> it's Wolf01 and all the other italians!
19:41:28  <andythenorth> 'does your data center include resilience arrangements for the following: fire, flood, earthquake, loss of power, emergent pandemic'
19:41:33  * andythenorth could do this all day
19:42:16  <andythenorth> 'we noted that all the staff named on the tender are now dead, please advise us which staff you are nominating as replacements, and their qualifications, experience, and vetting procedure'
19:42:30  <andythenorth> TrueBrain: ^ tell me your life doesn't contain these questions :P
19:43:17  <TrueBrain> its funny how we laughed about a scenario like this 6 months ago ;)
19:44:03  <Wolf01> <andythenorth> it's Wolf01 and all the other italians! <- yup, I don't know if news outside Italy reports how many people gets fined or even arrested for breaking the rules (or just ignoring common sense at all)
19:44:36  <TrueBrain> how many?
19:45:34  <Wolf01> They found a lot of old people at pubs playing cards, youngs organizing rave parties on abandoned buildings because they can't go to disco pubs, people drunk-driving at night
19:45:56  <Wolf01> At least 20-30 of these at day
19:47:37  <TrueBrain> not surprising, but yeah .. like .. come on ..
19:47:39  <Wolf01> And not to mention the riots in prisons
19:48:27  <andythenorth> this is all policing problems eh
19:48:35  <andythenorth> oof
19:48:46  <frosch123> as long as the number of corona "experts" grows faster than the virus, we are fine :p
19:49:02  <andythenorth> it is a growth area for blogging
19:49:11  <andythenorth> partly because the official sites are very very cautious
19:49:26  <andythenorth> some publish base statistics and very little else
19:50:03  <frosch123> probably because it involves a lot of paperwork
19:51:01  <frosch123> hr at my company was also funny. they send an email at 10am, they they will write an email about how to procede later. that email came at 17:30
19:51:14  <frosch123> so, 7:30 hours of paper work on what to actually communicate
19:52:32  <andythenorth> I have days like that
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20:26:07  <andythenorth> Wolf01: so 11 prisoners died in riots?
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21:01:17  * LordAro is going to Rotterdam this weekend
21:01:28  <LordAro> should be fun
21:03:15  <frosch123> yeah, there is a certain thrill whether you are allowed to go home afterwards
21:03:41  <LordAro> indeed!
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21:04:54  * andythenorth does some FIRS
21:05:03  <andythenorth> totally forgotten my own codebase :P
21:05:06  <andythenorth> I only know horses
21:05:39  <LordAro> oh
21:05:48  <LordAro> lumpy milk at the bottom of this cup of tea
21:05:51  <andythenorth> oof
21:05:53  <LordAro> guess that's gone off then
21:06:03  <andythenorth> probably good for you
21:06:09  * andythenorth drinks a lot of kefir
21:07:07  <andythenorth> did we once figure out how to solve this?
21:07:14  <andythenorth> I feel I've seen it twice today
21:07:29  <andythenorth> oh yes
21:07:30  <andythenorth>
21:07:56  <andythenorth> modest proposal
21:08:03  <andythenorth> extend base vehicles with classes
21:08:10  <andythenorth> or reimplement them as newgrf
21:10:41  <spnda> Any setting in nmlc where it just goes through an entire file and checks for each single error? Maybe like nmlc --verbose?
21:11:12  <glx> no it's single pass
21:11:21  <glx> so it stops at first error
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22:47:28  <Samu> who's in charge of this
22:47:39  <Samu> i dont have an account on that website
22:49:04  <Samu> someone, change this:
22:49:08  <Samu> AIRoad.CanBuildConnectedRoadPartsHere(cur_node, path.GetParent().GetTile(), next_tile)
22:49:11  <Samu> to this:
22:49:13  <Samu> AIRoad.CanBuildConnectedRoadPartsHere(cur_node, path.GetParent().GetTile(), next_tile) > 0
22:50:04  <Samu> because it can return -1
22:50:39  <Samu> -1 is true but should be false
22:50:44  <Samu> so > 0
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23:33:12  <ac> hello. nml 0.5 features are listed on the ttwiki, but not available on the github? is a release or source of nml 0.5 available?
23:33:58  <glx> it's the master branch on github
23:35:29  <ac> ok. must have made a mistake, as my nmlc --version says 0.4.5. thanks. i must have dled the 0.4.5 release.
23:35:47  <glx> 0.4.5 is the latest release yes
23:36:09  <ac> is the master working (mostly) ?
23:37:54  <glx> it does, unless some bugs appear :)
23:38:19  <glx> but it's hard to find bugs without using it ;)
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23:40:34  <ac> :)
23:42:06  <glx> iron horse uses some of the new nml features
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