Log for #openttd on 15th March 2020:
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00:02:14  <frosch123> yay, ugly template is ugly
00:03:42  <TrueBrain> There is no such thing :p
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00:07:58  <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on pull request #8035: Fix: Non-applicable goal in global goals list is no longer clickable
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00:46:05  <ac> any good resources to see nml examples? openttd/nml/examples is extremely limited, and first source is in pynml
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00:46:41  <frosch123>
00:47:05  <frosch123> not all are nml, but i think most
00:47:34  <glx> you can check the regression tests too (but they are mostly syntax examples)
00:48:51  <ac> frosch thanks. haha will take a look. right now my cargos are replacing the original ones for some reason, so probably an obv fix once i see someone else's
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00:50:40  <glx> TTD default cargos occupy slots 0-11, so if you want to define a new cargo be sure to set this ID to 12 or higher. It is recommended to set the 'number'-property to the same value as the item ID.
00:52:15  <ac> thanks. i was using 60 and 61 and still had the issue. nml5.0 and openttd1.9.3. perhaps i need to use <32
00:53:03  <ac> from the page: "It is recommended to set the 'number'-property to the same value as the item ID. " does this mean: "item(FEAT_CARGOS, item_cargos_charcoal) { property {
00:53:03  <ac> 	number: item_cargos_charcoal;...
00:53:30  <glx> ID is in the item() line
00:54:09  <ac> so: item(FEAT_CARGOS, item_id) {
00:54:16  <ac> and then i set number: item_id; ?
00:54:24  <ac> chooses the first valid new number?
00:54:29  <glx> third argument
00:54:40  <ac> oh, hm
00:54:52  <glx> The first argument is the feature of the item, the second (optional) argument is the name used to identify the object throughout the NML file and the third (optional) argument is the numerical id you want to use for this item
00:56:04  <ac> aha that makes sense. so i can put item(FEAT_CARGOS, item_cargos_charcoal, 12) and use number: 12
00:56:07  <ac> missed that, thanks
00:56:46  <glx> some parts of the doc are not very friendly :)
00:58:11  <ac> the part of that where it is just <expression> <expression> <expression> is a bit odd haha
00:58:25  <ac> especially when the first is always the feature
00:58:48  <frosch123> if you do cargos/industires, then yeti is probably the easiest to read
00:58:51  <frosch123>
00:58:52  <glx> yeah the author of this part must be a coder :)
01:01:00  <ac> gls: must be haha. fr: is there an important diff of pnmlvs. nml?
01:02:22  <frosch123> pnml is run through the c-preprocessor to procude a single nml
01:02:40  <frosch123> all those yeti pnmls are composed into that monster:
01:03:11  <ac> ah thats useful
01:03:17  <glx> pnml are subsections of a nml file
01:03:19  <ac> so they are using #defines etc ?
01:03:34  <glx> some do yes
01:03:35  <frosch123> yes, some use macros
01:03:53  <frosch123> andy switched to generating nml with python, that's pynml then
01:03:54  <ac> but mostly to modularize id guess
01:04:24  <frosch123> it's about project size :) small -> nml, medium -> pnml, huge -> pynml
01:04:40  <glx> pynml is a monster :)
01:05:05  <glx> don't dare looking at firs or iron horse :)
01:05:43  <ac> i was reading andrew's firs repo
01:05:47  <ac> hard to learn from
01:06:04  <glx> even him has hard time to follow its code :)
01:08:36  <glx> anyway when you do a massive industry/vehicle set it's way easier to use one file per industry/vehicle
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01:09:20  <ac> the docs have not given me a very clear idea of the lifetime of STORE_TEMP vs STORE_PERM variables or what shares the same registers. are STORE_PERM values stored for each industry and will last thru the whole game, whereas TEMP is shared by everything and only should be used if directly read again?
01:09:39  <ac> anyway when> i would like to start having multiple files already, with one industry and two cargos:)
01:10:49  <glx>
01:11:22  <glx> temporary is valid during the current callback run
01:12:40  <ac> ok thats much more clear. when a callback sets run_again, the next run is considered the same ch ain?
01:15:17  <ac> setting the number:11 and 12 and putting a 3rd argument to item worked. got new cargos now:)
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02:57:22  <ac> haha is hg server mega slow?
02:57:35  <ac> might be here all week trying to clone yeti
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07:27:59  <andythenorth> o/
07:49:59  <andythenorth> is it coffee time?
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08:44:59  <andythenorth> well
08:45:23  <andythenorth> I might do stupid little facts / bios about the trains here
08:45:35  <andythenorth> alternative history nonsense
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08:49:29  <nielsm> andythenorth if you do that you really should also have proper manufacturer names
08:49:38  <andythenorth> that is one of my questions
08:51:40  <nielsm> did I answer it?
08:56:19  <andythenorth> kinda
08:56:48  <andythenorth> do I write the story from the perspective of:
08:57:02  <andythenorth> 1. the train company you're running ('your chief engineer has designed x')
08:57:23  <andythenorth> 2. a vehicle manufacturer 'we designed this x'
08:58:08  <andythenorth> 3. wiki-style / history book / vehicle catalogue 'manufacturer foo designed x'
08:58:13  <andythenorth> ??
08:59:26  <nielsm> hm I think I prefer 2, manufacturers designing vehicles in response to technological developments and demand trends in the market
08:59:47  <nielsm> so PR blurbs
09:08:01  <andythenorth> nielsm: I am going to do this in web docs initially
09:08:36  <andythenorth> I'd like to have an 'extended info' window for vehicles in game though, just a simple window opened from buy menu / vehicle window
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10:29:58  <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick commented on pull request #8035: Fix: Non-applicable goal in global goals list is no longer clickable
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10:34:24  <Samu> this new version of edge kind of sucks
10:34:45  <Samu> feels like it's not well integrated with windows
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10:36:11  <andythenorth> this looks lolz
10:36:30  <andythenorth> stores to temp register, then reads it, stores it to permanent register
10:36:41  * andythenorth is lol programmer
10:38:18  <nielsm> I'm wondering if it would be possible to write callbacks in a more procedural manner, though not with NML
10:39:32  <Samu> looks like glx was right...
10:39:36  <Samu> im dumb
10:40:43  <Samu> s->company or this->window_number or this->owner, doesn't matter
10:41:58  <andythenorth> nielsm: well there are varact2 procedures...
10:42:03  <andythenorth> which are now supported in nml
10:42:12  <andythenorth> they reduce the weirdness
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10:42:35  <andythenorth> writing everything as case->branch->[repeat]->return is weird
10:42:47  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the presence of procedures doesn't make anything procedural, though
10:43:42  * andythenorth reading wikipedia
10:45:08  <andythenorth> I am always hazy on the distinctions between different programming paradigms
10:46:41  <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick commented on pull request #8035: Fix: Non-applicable goal in global goals list is no longer clickable
10:47:29  <andythenorth> what paradigm best describes newgrf varact 2?
10:47:36  <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick updated pull request #8035: Fix: Non-applicable goal in global goals list is no longer clickable
10:53:22  <nielsm> newgrf va2 syntactically looks like ML pattern matching, except it does range matching rather than patterns
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10:54:49  <nielsm> maybe syntactically is the wrong word, structurally?
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11:35:51  <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 approved pull request #8035: Fix: Non-applicable goal in global goals list is no longer clickable
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12:05:43  <andythenorth> quak
12:11:37  <frosch123> moi
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13:09:07  <andythenorth> much as I was aiming for day without covid talk, this is quite well done
13:09:30  <andythenorth> the official government sources tend to lack enough detail, which is causing certain dramatic blog posts to spread virally
13:14:19  <andythenorth> BBL
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13:30:11  <TrueBrain> right, so BaNaNaS .. what was I doing ...
13:30:57  <TrueBrain> search, github stuff and authentication
13:33:36  <michi_cc> nielsm: NML abstracts some of the most weird GRF stuff away (like the strange action 6 self-modifying grf parameter stuff), but other than that it is still a direct 1:1 low level structure.
13:34:32  <michi_cc> nielsm: A high-level language could represent it much simpler, but I'm not sure if trying to squeeze it into NML would make any sense.
13:35:25  <nielsm> yeah a higher level language would probably invite more complex code that would make everything even slower
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14:02:47  <spnda> I see on train action3 callbacks that under comment for the "speed" callback it says "Units are not (yet) available". SOo how would I use this then?
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14:11:29  <frosch123> TrueBrain: what is your intended usecase for "search"?
14:11:32  <frosch123> i do not use it yet
14:11:58  <TrueBrain> to find dependencies
14:12:09  <TrueBrain> if you know a better way, I am open for it :)
14:12:26  <frosch123> ctrl+f on package list?
14:12:52  <TrueBrain> you download all the packages? As that are pretty long result-pages
14:13:01  <TrueBrain> I most likely even have to paginate them
14:13:09  <TrueBrain> (NewGRF is 14 MiB of JSON data)
14:13:44  <TrueBrain> I was considering removing "/package/{content_type}"
14:13:48  <TrueBrain> it is just too darn much data
14:14:34  <TrueBrain> what do you think would be the best approach?
14:17:05  <frosch123> i want a "all packages of content-type, but only with the newest version that is available for new savegames"
14:17:12  <frosch123> ok, maybe "search" covers that
14:17:20  <frosch123> then i do not need /package/content-type
14:17:38  <TrueBrain> I think I prefer that, as even your query is a very huge result :P
14:17:52  <TrueBrain> and for search it is I guess okay to only return the first N results
14:18:08  <TrueBrain> would that cover adding dependencies for you?
14:18:17  <TrueBrain> (don't really know what you are using /package/content-type for atm :D)
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14:34:38  <frosch123> TrueBrain: essentially i want the same list as ottd in-game
14:35:01  <TrueBrain> what are you trying to do with it? :)
14:35:23  <frosch123> <- same as that
14:35:41  <TrueBrain> for the manager part?
14:35:46  <frosch123> no, public
14:35:51  <TrueBrain> ah, you are building that too?
14:36:08  <frosch123> i link between the stuff
14:36:17  <frosch123> you can click on a package, and then see all versions
14:36:28  <TrueBrain> k, use the /package/content-type for that for now. I will have to figure something out .. not sure yet
14:36:46  <frosch123> maybe the api calls could have another parameter, which lists the wanted result items
14:36:52  <frosch123> then i can skip "description" etc
14:37:08  <TrueBrain> that would work
14:37:32  <TrueBrain> pretty sure we can remove more data from it .. possibly good indeed to minimize the /package/content-type endpoint
14:37:39  <frosch123> for adding deps, i am thinking: there are pages for every version, which lists some id that you can c&p into the upload form
14:37:40  <TrueBrain> but okay, build first, improve later
14:38:28  <TrueBrain> so that meansI don't have to implement search endpoint for now :P
14:38:30  <TrueBrain> which is good ;)
14:45:22  <frosch123> <- ugly templates are ugly :)
14:45:48  <frosch123> user clicks frontpage -> package_list -> package_info -> version_info
14:46:12  <frosch123> these are the public pages, there are equivalent pages with entries instead of plain text, for editing
14:47:29  <TrueBrain> guess we really need to store custom licenses somewhere too :D
14:47:39  <TrueBrain> you can now only see them after downloading the binary :P
14:47:50  <TrueBrain> nice work frosch123  :) andy can do the styling I am sure :D
14:48:33  <frosch123> yeah, if the api could give me urls for license/readme/changelog/download, including download for savegame-only versions if authenticated as author
14:48:53  <TrueBrain> I am going to write that down on the wishlist :)
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14:49:34  <TrueBrain> as I think those are good improvements
14:49:42  <TrueBrain> but atm: finish first, improve after :)
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15:09:58  <TrueBrain> why did I make 2 types of "Content Type" .. 1 for the API, and one for on disk ..
15:10:02  <TrueBrain> ai-library vs "AI Library"
15:10:09  <TrueBrain> in an URL, the first looks so much better
15:10:16  <TrueBrain> hmm .. maybe I should just also change it on disk
15:10:28  <TrueBrain> yeah, lets do that
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15:10:33  <TrueBrain> ugh, shitty job incoming
15:10:41  <stefino> Eddi|zuHause: hi Eddie are you here?
15:10:44  <TrueBrain> (just nasty to make such changes, but okay .. it is for the better)
15:10:50  <Eddi|zuHause> stefino: partially
15:11:18  <stefino> Eddi|zuHause: do you have experience with stations in NFO?
15:11:27  <Eddi|zuHause> not really, sorry
15:11:46  <stefino> Eddi|zuHause: np, thanks :)
15:11:56  <Eddi|zuHause> i tried looking into it once, but did not get very far
15:12:04  <stefino> hi all, has anyone experience with stations in NFO?
15:13:54  <stefino> I need help with "cargo aware function" for multitile stations and cargo aware function for 1x1 tile station but with random cargo graphics
15:14:52  <frosch123> then you need to look at action3
15:15:10  <frosch123> there is no much flexibility. you can do what action3 provided, but nothing more
15:15:52  <frosch123> that implies that the stationtype already decides what cargotype matters
15:16:00  <frosch123> you cannot dynamically change it or something
15:19:09  <frosch123> however, the problem is that cargo amount is 0 when a train is waiting, so iirc some station grfs just do not care about waiting cargo, and display a fixed sprite of cargo piles
15:20:14  <frosch123> <- there is also var 69, but i never heard of anyone using that
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15:22:10  <stefino> I have to confess that I only can use Quast's tutorials but to do something new is impossible for me :D my ideas are: to add passangers for island platform. So it has 2 tracks and it is 1 tile length. Classic platform is OK but here is a problem because I think it will be strange to have only 1 type of passangers.
15:23:07  <stefino> it would be good to have 4-5 types /groups of passangers and add it into random function  to make it diverse
15:23:46  <Eddi|zuHause> shouldn't a RandomAction2 work for that?
15:24:54  <stefino> the last thing is similar like island platforms - station buildings so 1 track or non-track but 2-3-4 long
15:26:52  <stefino> whole ideas mean one cargo graphics for all cargo types.
15:29:52  <stefino> I saw some station sets where was one type of station and cargo graphics is different for coal, iore, ... but this is so complicated I think
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15:30:21  <Eddi|zuHause> i think you should look at how they did it
15:33:25  <stefino> I tried but decompiled grf was a little bit unreadable :D
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15:35:21  <frosch123> <- there is also chips, but it uses a lot of preprocessing
15:36:48  <frosch123> <- no idea how readable the output is :)
15:38:53  <stefino> this is good :D
15:39:13  <stefino> thanks for it :)
15:41:08  <stefino> but still really crazy :D btw it there still ID limit for FF value? So I can have only 256 stations in one GRF?
15:44:26  <frosch123> there is a maxium of 256 station classes (all grfs combined), and 256 station types per class
15:44:38  <frosch123> don't spam the players, and it will be enough
15:45:41  <frosch123> and yes, also a limit of 255 stations per grf
15:45:46  <frosch123> but again, don't spam the player
15:46:25  <stefino> okay okay :) I'm looking on chips and it is really crazy
15:47:03  <stefino> I think I will be happy when I'll code basic stations
15:49:18  <TrueBrain> meh, seems I walked into an utf-8 issue ... for some reason I think I am not going to like this :)
15:52:46  <TrueBrain> "Korean train set\n\nMade by Las\n\n\uB77C\uC2A4\uB2D8\uC758 \uD55C\uAD6D \uC5F4\uCC28 \uC138\uD2B8 1.6\uBC84\uC804\uC785\uB2C8\uB2E4."
15:52:53  <TrueBrain> that ... is not what it should been outputting
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15:56:34  <TrueBrain> fucking yaml.dump .. grr
15:58:07  <TrueBrain> 2048\xD71024 <- that doesn't look like valid utf-8, does it?
15:59:08  <frosch123> no, if the highest bit is set, it must be set on multiple bytes in sequence
15:59:11  <frosch123> D7 is only one
15:59:49  <TrueBrain> pyyaml is not the best library out there, to put it midly
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16:00:00  <TrueBrain> I tell it to output utf-8 .. and that is the result :P
16:02:11  <TrueBrain> it needs allow_unicode=True
16:02:13  <TrueBrain> for Python3
16:02:16  <TrueBrain> why .. is that not the default?!
16:02:17  <TrueBrain> lol
16:03:00  <TrueBrain> I am currently reading the whole BaNaNaS database, and writing it back on disk again; there should be no diff ofc :)
16:03:25  <frosch123> sounds like there is :p
16:03:33  <TrueBrain> many, so far
16:03:36  <TrueBrain> most surrounding description :)
16:03:54  <TrueBrain> people did some crazy shit in that field
16:07:04  <TrueBrain> someone managed to get \ts in there too :D Nice
16:08:30  <TrueBrain> "Kondor Zoltán<U+FEFF>"
16:08:34  <TrueBrain> pretty sure that is invalid UTF too
16:09:26  <frosch123> ZERO WIDTH NO-BREAK SPACE
16:09:34  <nielsm> yes also known as the byte order mark
16:10:19  <frosch123> then it would be at the beginning?
16:10:39  <TrueBrain> I do not really understand how this got loaded in the system, as it should fail on utf-8 decoding, but okay :P
16:10:59  <frosch123> why? it's valid
16:11:02  <frosch123> just pointless
16:11:19  <nielsm> U+FEFF is valid, technically anywhere in text
16:11:24  <TrueBrain> it fails to encode .. hmm .. so why does it ...
16:11:34  <nielsm> unless you mean the byte sequence FE FF which is not valid UTF8
16:11:47  <nielsm> as far as I remember
16:11:55  <TrueBrain>  Zoltán<feff> <- is what "vim" tells me
16:12:09  <TrueBrain> every editor highlights it as "THIS IS WEIRD" :P
16:12:17  <nielsm> it is
16:12:32  <TrueBrain> ef bb bf
16:12:35  <TrueBrain> in raw hex
16:12:54  <TrueBrain> so indeed, it is valid UTF .. so why is this a problem for pyyaml ..
16:13:22  <frosch123> hmm, there is something fishy. kcharselect does not list an utf-8 representation either, only utf-16
16:13:23  <nielsm> by convention text files in a unicode encoding are allowed to have FEFF as the first character, because the encoding of it can be used to detect the UTF format
16:13:32  <TrueBrain> sorry, I assumed what it presented me meant there was a bytecode of FEFF, but ther eis an UTF-8 character FEFF
16:13:58  <TrueBrain> well, this is in the middle of nowhere :P
16:14:36  <TrueBrain> okay, lets not fuzz too much over this, lets just remove the character :)
16:14:51  <nielsm> stripping it out should be permitted yes
16:15:17  <nielsm> well technically it can affect shaping of text in some complex scripts
16:15:20  <TrueBrain> I was just a bit surprised this was allowed in the system to start with. Owh well :)
16:15:36  <nielsm> prevent ligatures from happening between the two codepoints it separates
16:15:59  <SpComb> TpF2, barely able to manage the private traffic in my megapolis
16:16:19  <nielsm> but there's a different codepoint that's recommended for that purpose, ZWNBSP is not supposed to be used anywhre but the first character in a file/text field
16:16:24  <TrueBrain> I would nearly ban you for being a spam bot SpComb  :P
16:17:44  <TrueBrain> okay, reading and writing everything results in the same content .. w00p :) Found tons of other unrelated issues, but that can be fixed :)
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16:30:04  <TrueBrain> so ... we are on lockdown too, I guess .. schools closed, bars closed, everything closed till 6th of April
16:30:50  <TrueBrain> owh, we cannot call it lockdown, but yeah .. it kinda is :P
16:35:18  <frosch123> "exciting times"
16:37:06  <frosch123> so, is lordaro stranded in rotterdam?
16:37:08  <TrueBrain> could have done without living it, but at least we can say we lived this part of history :P
16:38:50  <TrueBrain> okay, so content is now stored on disk as expected .. now I only have to make the commit and push it, I guess .. but that is for another day :D
16:38:55  <rotterdxm> hey, I just noticed something... the farm fields in my openTTD games have disappeared. this has happened somewhere in the past 2 months or so. no idea why. someone told me this was a FIRS thing, but I have been using the same version for a while now
16:39:23  <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/content-api] TrueBrain updated pull request #3: Add: first version of content-api
16:39:27  <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/content-server] TrueBrain updated pull request #1: Add: first version of the content_server rewritten in Python
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16:41:59  <TrueBrain> frosch123: if you like, I also pushed our super-secret-bananas-github-repository with the latest
16:42:09  <TrueBrain> with that checked out under BaNaNaS in content-api
16:42:12  <TrueBrain> you can run it
16:42:28  <TrueBrain> not sure if your code already talks with an API, but that would allow you to test real-life data :)
16:42:43  <TrueBrain> don't look in the history of BaNaNaS, it is horrible :P
16:42:48  <frosch123> nah, i am pushing the api to the end, makes it easier
16:42:49  <TrueBrain> (I will squash it soon)
16:43:03  <TrueBrain> dealers choice ;)
16:43:20  <TrueBrain> it should also work in terms of updates, uploads, etc
16:43:29  <TrueBrain> authentication is just "Bearer <username>"
16:43:30  <TrueBrain> super secure
16:44:03  <TrueBrain> I am going to remove the "search" endpoint for now, and indeed limit the output of /package/content-type
16:44:16  <TrueBrain> otherwise, it is nearing completion ... it is ~2000 lines of code ...
16:44:20  <TrueBrain> it is so much bigger than I expected :P
16:44:24  <TrueBrain> right, dinner now
16:45:29  <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/content-api] TrueBrain updated pull request #3: Add: first version of content-api
16:45:34  <TrueBrain> after fixing flake8 :P
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17:28:35  <andythenorth> yo
17:41:27  <planetmaker> o/
17:41:42  <frosch123> hoi pm \o/
17:41:53  <frosch123> do you know where the eints vm lives these days?
17:42:18  <frosch123> i am tried of getting a mail every day that it is broken, so i want to shut it down
17:49:33  <planetmaker> oh, it should kinda still live where before, just different hardware
17:50:12  <planetmaker> I can just shutdown the VM, if you want
17:50:25  <planetmaker> so no eints / translations anymore for openttd?
17:50:26  <frosch123> yes, that's the easiest
17:50:29  <planetmaker> that'd be kinda sad
17:50:52  <frosch123> planetmaker: in a few weeks we have github-logins on
17:51:22  <planetmaker> hm, ok.
17:51:44  <planetmaker> but... that's missing all the hints etc... no UI for it as now, yes?
17:51:46  <frosch123> <- it needs review, and tb's team-bot needs to be finished
17:52:15  <frosch123> what hints?
17:52:20  <planetmaker> or is it a plugin for eints?
17:52:30  <frosch123> it is still eints
17:52:39  <frosch123> just you login with your github account
17:52:46  <frosch123> and translator roles are managed via github teams
17:52:55  <planetmaker> ah. so that then lives on github?
17:53:02  <planetmaker> completely?
17:53:14  <frosch123> eints lives somewhere on a ottd server
17:53:18  <frosch123> it is not yet cloud ready
17:53:37  <frosch123> that's after bananas
17:53:51  <planetmaker> it's no problem to keep it on a VM on my machine
17:54:26  <frosch123> i want to use the dorpsgek infrastructure
17:54:33  <frosch123> that's less work
17:55:01  <planetmaker> means it has to be on that machine or is it just having a VM or...?
17:55:28  * peter1138 fiddles with OpenTTD in vscode.
17:55:29  <frosch123> it has dorpsgeks private keys
17:56:01  <planetmaker> hm, ok
17:56:35  <planetmaker> well. It wouldn't matter, there's two admins on this server, spike and me. And then whoever has access to the VMs
17:56:45  <frosch123> for now it will just feature openttd. next are basesets, then maybe andy stuff
17:56:58  <frosch123> that's probably everything that may be somewhat alive
17:57:04  <planetmaker> yeah
17:57:48  <planetmaker> seems the coop server becomes completely obsolete, eh?
17:58:43  <frosch123> it has 344 repositories, which are all dead
17:59:11  <frosch123> it's not particulary exciting to work on something that noone uses
17:59:30  <planetmaker> no, indeed
17:59:43  <frosch123> ah wrong, the finnish guys use it, so 2 alive
18:03:12  <planetmaker> eints shutdown
18:19:08  <glx> hmm maybe #7990 should have "backport requested" label
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19:10:25  <andythenorth> coop still has bundles?
19:12:57  <LordAro> frosch123: well the fery appears to be moving away from the continent
19:13:00  <LordAro> so i guess not
19:13:07  <LordAro> ferry*
19:13:48  <frosch123> local trains are free now :)
19:13:55  <frosch123> but glad you made it :)
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19:15:34  * andythenorth went shopping
19:15:48  <frosch123> toilet paper?
19:20:24  <andythenorth> sold out
19:20:27  <andythenorth> except where it wasn't
19:21:12  <planetmaker> coop still has bundles, yes
19:23:01  <Wolf01> So, I think people here are allergic to rules... yesterday about 7000 in entire Italy charged for not respecting quarantine or simply the best practices to avoid the virus, yes 7000 in a single day. Only 18 here btw.
19:24:39  <andythenorth> planetmaker: don't shut the server yet then :)
19:24:45  <andythenorth> but bundles could be a set of s3 buckets tbh
19:25:15  <andythenorth> Wolf01 has the confirmed case growth rate changed?
19:25:26  <andythenorth> it's very weird how much news-but-no-news there is
19:28:47  <planetmaker> andythenorth, the server won't be shutdown. It's migrated to a new one... and no need to change a thing as-is
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19:45:26  <Wolf01> <andythenorth> Wolf01 has the confirmed case growth rate changed? <- no, still exponential
19:46:30  <Wolf01> South Korea nailed it, we aren't able to do it
19:47:47  <planetmaker> is quite... descriptive
19:48:36  <Wolf01> here too, sorry for the italian, but graphs are understandable
19:50:35  <frosch123> oh, it's so localized to the north?
19:50:44  <frosch123> (or was, 2 weeks ago)
19:52:07  <Wolf01> No, it's still localized in the north, but a lot of people fleed to south, we expect them to go extinct in 2 weeks, the south is not well covered with our healthcare system
19:52:43  <Wolf01> They have only some cases, and locked down about everything
19:55:15  <frosch123> well, when i checked germany's numbers on friday, they were about the same in all states
19:55:45  <frosch123> only a variation of factor 2 between different states wrt "cases per population"
19:56:09  <frosch123> and that's well within measurement accuarcy, since small states had very few cases
19:56:50  <Wolf01> North Italy is more like a big city, a lot of connections, a lot of people moving from all the north continuously, so it spread fast
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20:00:30  <TrueBrain> in the netherlands they said: we seen 1000 cases, we estimate there are 6000 people carrying this virus
20:00:37  <TrueBrain> I was thinking: that sounds like a low number
20:00:54  <Wolf01> Yep, we have 24k cases, estimate is 120k
20:01:26  <TrueBrain> means 1 in 6 has sympthons severe enough to mention it
20:01:32  <TrueBrain> I guess they know, but it feels low
20:01:51  <frosch123> that other blog, that andy hates so much, used 800 cases per death, assuming that that is measured more accurately
20:02:40  <TrueBrain> but death strongly depends on the effectiveness of the healthcare system
20:02:42  <TrueBrain> so that sounds odd
20:03:23  <TrueBrain> well, in a few years: remember that spring of 2020?
20:03:32  <SpComb> Finland currently has the capacity to test 500-600 samples per day, so it's going to be severely underdiagnosed here
20:03:32  <frosch123> it's the combination of the spread rate over 2 weeks, and the death rate after 2 weeks when there is no overload
20:04:00  <TrueBrain> SpComb: in the netherlands they stopped testing most people
20:04:03  <frosch123> TrueBrain: some people say that next season will be worse :)
20:04:12  <TrueBrain> "do you think you will die? No? Just sit it out, you will be fine"
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20:04:55  <SpComb> yeah, the current policy is to not even call unless you have severe symptoms
20:04:56  <TrueBrain> I like the reasoning: tested or not, you will be at home, sitting it out .. so knowing if you have it yes/no doesn't change anything
20:05:02  <frosch123> i have no idea what influenza does during its summer vacation
20:05:36  <SpComb> positive tests and official quarantine would have an impact on people's behavior
20:05:52  <TrueBrain> knowing for sure you have it, means you are even more careful
20:06:39  <frosch123> are you sure? maybe you take the initiative to visit the anti-vaccination club?
20:06:51  <TrueBrain> that we do anyway :P
20:07:13  <TrueBrain> I like the meme: I haven't heard anything about anti-vaxxers lately? - No, they are all dead!
20:07:27  <TrueBrain> morbid humour etc :P
20:07:49  <frosch123> TrueBrain: it's better :) there was a anti-vaxxer demo planned in munich next week. it got canceled
20:08:34  <planetmaker> lol :D
20:09:58  <SpComb> but ATM the hope is that people will take the initiative to stay at home with even mild flu symptoms
20:10:12  <frosch123> hmm, usually pm watches the same channels as i do, so weird that is news to him
20:10:47  <frosch123> SpComb: that's a weird hope when people go to work
20:11:03  <SpComb> someone sneezes in the cafeteria, and then everyone goes silent for a couple seconds, etc :)
20:12:52  <SpComb> allergy season is going to be really awkward
20:28:57  <andythenorth> frosch123: this is good on what case fataility rate is, and what CFR looks like for covid, with all the caveats about local conditions
20:29:08  <andythenorth> fatality *
20:29:44  <frosch123> did you link that earlier today?
20:29:47  <andythenorth> yes
20:30:12  <andythenorth> it fills a gap between WHO etc who are publishing infrequently and without much explanation
20:30:21  <andythenorth> and the bloggers, who honestly know fuck all
20:30:37  <andythenorth> one has gone round the UK today explaining that herd immunity only follows mass public vaccination
20:30:43  <andythenorth> which is bollocks, but eh FB loves it
20:32:13  <andythenorth> if the number of people who are vectors for onward transmission falls sufficiently, then r0 diminishes to 1 or less
20:32:29  <andythenorth> the question is how do we lower r0, and how long can we hold it there
20:33:20  <frosch123> question is, how much is r0 affected by weather
20:36:28  * andythenorth shrug emoji
20:36:48  <andythenorth> someone observed there are no southern hemisphere cases, but eh, who knows
20:37:15  * andythenorth should FIRS
20:37:16  <frosch123> australia is southern hemisphere
20:37:40  <andythenorth> this is true
20:37:53  <andythenorth> also hell just froze over
20:37:59  <andythenorth> I doubt that has ever happened in all history ^
20:41:46  <milek7> UK still doing nothing?
20:44:18  <andythenorth> perception is that yes
20:44:27  <andythenorth> relative to other European nations, yes
20:45:31  <andythenorth> social media suggests some people would like a lot more to be done
20:47:24  <andythenorth> but my social media bubble is very left wing so eh
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22:22:27  <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] alistaircarscadden commented on issue #8034: Text in cheat menu window is excessively dramatic
22:28:23  <Samu> i think i found a bug with transfers
22:29:02  <Samu> i have a train doing unload and leave empty
22:29:40  <Samu> the station doesn't accept the cargo anymore, i get a transfer money, which prevents the train from getting into negative profit
22:30:40  <Samu> train remains in the positive profit, while in reality, it didn't get any real money. is that intended? cargodist isn't even on
22:31:44  <glx> it's fake money
22:32:01  <glx> that's how transfer works
22:32:47  <Samu> :( i can't detect when a vehicle isn't making money
22:32:51  <Samu> with ai
22:32:58  <Samu> what can i do
22:34:42  <glx> basically never use unload on final destination
22:35:04  <Samu> hmmok
22:35:41  <glx> if the cargo is accepted it will be unloaded anyway
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