Log for #openttd on 14th April 2020:
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01:47:42  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] tomstorey commented on issue #8066: 1.10.0 crashes on start in OS X 10.12.6
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04:43:17  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] serprinss commented on issue #7826: Mac OS binaries are unsigned
04:56:34  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] floodious commented on pull request #7924: Feature: Water tiles have a depth
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06:15:55  <arikover> Good morning to everybody.
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07:06:03  <Samu> hi
07:51:35  <TrueBrain> nielsm : had a nice conversation today about Dutch law. Seems we can create a legal entity here to handle all these things. The only drawback is that it will always need to be registered to a Dutch location; otherwise it can be as international as we want
07:52:13  <TrueBrain> Costs to setup are around 300 euros, one time fee, and they help with setting up all the legal bla
07:52:46  <TrueBrain> It will be VAT exempt and nobody is allowed to be employed ;)
07:53:18  <andythenorth> :)
07:53:21  <andythenorth> that's helpful
07:53:23  <TrueBrain> The advise is to have 3 people in the board; they need to proof their identity to the notary
07:53:38  <andythenorth> my entire life is proof of ID
07:53:45  <andythenorth> every week I have to do it for something
07:53:54  <Eddi|zuHause> how do you prove your identity over the internet?
07:54:05  <andythenorth> serious answer?
07:54:17  <TrueBrain> I guess Eddi|zuHause doesn't have legal documents :p
07:54:17  <andythenorth> get it notarised by a local lawyer for statutory fee
07:54:41  <TrueBrain> Corona is really helping here btw
07:54:54  <TrueBrain> As you are not allowed to drop by ;)
07:54:59  <Eddi|zuHause> so i would go to a notary here, let him copy my documents, and send that over to your notary?
07:55:37  <andythenorth> yes
07:55:51  <TrueBrain> The only thing he was unsure of, what happens with international law .. but I consider that to be an unlikely issue
07:56:23  <TrueBrain> Owh, and we should aim to put down we are not making money with this Stichting.
07:56:46  <andythenorth> "we are not making money with this Stichting"
07:56:51  * andythenorth did it
07:57:00  <TrueBrain> Yeah, so no paid service via that Stichting
07:57:16  <TrueBrain> So no asking money for content service ;)
07:57:27  <andythenorth> oof
07:57:28  <TrueBrain> Well, out of the name of the stichting ofc
07:57:52  <TrueBrain> Anyone is free to host his own BaNaNaS and ask money for that, ofc
07:58:00  <TrueBrain> As long as you follow GPLv2
07:59:38  <Eddi|zuHause> i always wished for an openttdcoop bananas that would just put up all the old stuff from the grf pack, that is technically legal to distribute but the regular bananas is insisting of an actual author to upload it
07:59:42  <TrueBrain> planetmaker , LordAro , peter1138 : highlight to read -10min till now :)
08:00:10  <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause : with the new codebase you can
08:00:23  <TrueBrain> Well, and we need support for it in the client
08:00:36  <TrueBrain> But I am all for such setups
08:01:02  <andythenorth> does that mean I can distribute my coin miner on my own bananas? :)
08:01:08  <TrueBrain> Let reddit run their own setup; would only improve the enjoyment of the many
08:01:16  <TrueBrain> Yes, you can
08:01:23  <andythenorth> newgrf action 15: resolve proof of work
08:02:09  <TrueBrain> Anyway, back to the legal bla: I have to check with our fiscal and with a bank if there are any additional things I have to worry about, but otherwise this seems to be the way to get certificates
08:02:20  <TrueBrain> And get in Steam
08:02:41  <TrueBrain> Well, I have to check if they know about stichtingen
08:03:44  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm assuming for confirming VAT exemption you need to do a fiscal report like once a year?
08:03:56  <TrueBrain> Just certificates are pretty expensive to pay every year .. minor details, I guess
08:04:44  <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause : no; we basically say we only make N euros in donations a year and they say: please never tell us anything about this ever again
08:05:16  <TrueBrain> The only requirement is an Excel every year with what comes in and what goes out
08:05:20  <TrueBrain> Like .. that is it
08:06:28  <TrueBrain> Right, back to work. We talk again tonight about this I guess :D
08:06:34  <andythenorth> ++
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09:17:29  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] DerDakon commented on pull request #7270: Introduce CMake (and removing all other project-related code)
09:24:08  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] DerDakon commented on pull request #7270: Introduce CMake (and removing all other project-related code)
09:28:45  <peter1138> andythenorth, why do you think OpenTTD is already so slow on OSX? :D
09:30:29  <andythenorth> BTC
09:35:53  <peter1138> And... I've been sent chocolate. Hmm.
09:36:35  <andythenorth> that's nice :)
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09:52:48  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] auge8472 commented on issue #8077: Toll
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11:05:55  <milek7> so about that cheat window..
11:05:57  <milek7> does PR to move bulldozer, tunnel crossing and aircraft crashing out of it into regular settings
11:06:01  <milek7> have any chance of success?
11:08:30  <Samu> demolishing industries sounds imba
11:09:31  <Samu> unless it costs a ton, even then...
11:13:38  <Samu> my bool skills are failing me
11:14:32  <Samu> !(a && b) is the same as !a || !b?
11:35:54  <andythenorth> do it with 1s and 0s and see?
11:36:46  <andythenorth> I think your first expression returns True in 3 out of 4 cases
11:37:11  <andythenorth> but I did not pay attention properly to boolean logic :P
11:45:45  <milek7> Samu: yes, it even has fancy name
11:45:50  <milek7>
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11:54:22  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] embeddedt commented on issue #8077: Toll
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13:54:28  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nikolas commented on issue #7826: Mac OS binaries are unsigned
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14:46:27  <Samu> wow, is it just me or apple users are completely... oh well, i'm not gonna say it
14:48:21  <Samu> that topic reads as agressive
14:48:38  <Samu> I couldn't put up with those users
14:48:56  <peter1138> What topic?
14:49:04  <Samu> 7826
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14:55:07  <andythenorth> certs
14:56:15  <andythenorth> you're conflating 'apple user' and 'non-native English speaker'
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14:56:45  <andythenorth> or 'apple user' and 'entitled'
14:56:55  <andythenorth> they may fall in the same venn diagrams sometimes
14:57:55  <andythenorth> but it's a logical fallacy to take one irritatingly demandingly player and generalise about users of the second largest OS
14:58:03  <andythenorth> (consumer OS)
14:59:00  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] DonaldDuck313 opened issue #8086: Ship is said to be lost when it find its way just fine
15:02:02  <LordAro> told you we should've fixed that
15:02:43  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on issue #8086: Ship is said to be lost when it find its way just fine
15:02:43  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro closed issue #8086: Ship is said to be lost when it find its way just fine
15:05:20  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth commented on issue #8086: Ship is said to be lost when it find its way just fine
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15:50:58  <TrueBrain> right, I guess that is the other choice .. join an US-based company to handle our legal affairs .. not sure I personally like that, but it is not only up to me :D
15:55:01  <andythenorth> I am potato / potato either
16:00:06  <TrueBrain> there are some drawbacks for a mostly (all?) europe-based dev-team to register under an US flag
16:00:22  <TrueBrain> nothing against US, well, on a personal note I might, but from a legal point of view, it is a bit more difficult
16:00:40  <TrueBrain> I would prefer an entity that complies with EU regulation
16:02:29  <TrueBrain> ugh, Steam wants a bank number for the legal entity ... that costs ~100 euro a year
16:02:34  <TrueBrain> this is getting expensive this way :P
16:02:49  <andythenorth> ouch
16:03:24  <TrueBrain> Apple was .. 100 euro a year?
16:03:30  <TrueBrain> Certificate is ~200 euro a year
16:03:35  <milek7> bank account costs so much?
16:03:50  <TrueBrain> In The Netherlands it does; well, it is not much, just for the way we would use it, it is
16:04:47  <TrueBrain> it is expensive, to get all your binaries signed properly
16:05:59  <LordAro> i'd vote EU as well
16:06:29  <LordAro> (b-word notwithstanding)
16:07:50  <TrueBrain> I don't get that last sentence, sorry :P Sounds like you were having a stroke :D
16:09:35  <LordAro> it's a real word!
16:09:40  <Samu> locks are really a headache for pathfinding
16:09:46  <LordAro> "in spite of"
16:09:57  <LordAro> it's one of those English words where they forgot to add the spaces
16:10:15  <TrueBrain> I don't get the "b-word" part :P
16:10:18  <LordAro> brexit :p
16:10:38  <TrueBrain> ah :D
16:10:44  <TrueBrain> sorry ... I am not into that slang
16:10:53  <TrueBrain> it is not hurting me, so who cares :P
16:11:16  <Samu> finding a canal route and using locks is one thing
16:11:24  <andythenorth> what is brexit?
16:11:45  <LordAro> andythenorth: it's all done right? not in the news anymore :p
16:11:48  <Samu> preventing future routes from blocking previous routes is another, and locks are really great at complicating things
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16:12:39  <TrueBrain> LordAro: did you read what I wrote earlier about a legal form we could take?
16:13:25  <LordAro> i did
16:13:37  <LordAro> i didn't necessarily understand all of it, but i did read it
16:13:48  <TrueBrain> :D Well, I tried to use simple words :P
16:13:57  <TrueBrain> I guess we need some form of agreement if we want to go that route or not
16:14:20  <TrueBrain> well, now I think about it, maybe we should also write down what the yearly cost is going to be, if we want to sign our binaries ...
16:14:29  <TrueBrain> doing Open Source stuff is becoming rather expensive
16:14:46  <andythenorth> oof
16:14:58  <LordAro> has anyone investigated significantly how/if other similar projects do it?
16:15:06  <andythenorth> maybe we offer a premium .99 / year signed binary service :P
16:15:53  <TrueBrain> LordAro: from what I have seen, there are 3 groups: 1) they don't care, 2) they did it under the name of a personal developer (in that case the price drops a bit too), 3) they used a shell-company as the one suggested in the issue-tracker
16:16:12  <TrueBrain> well, and the 4th, that use some form of LLC
16:16:45  <Samu> - technically, route 52 and 11 aren't blocked
16:18:35  <TrueBrain> 3) and 4) are just expensive it seems .. I cannot find anything writing it to be cheaper for OSS
16:19:08  <TrueBrain> but I invite anyone to also use google to find more data about it :) Lets avoid it being a one-sided told story :)
16:19:42  <andythenorth> everything I found pointed to 3 or 4
16:19:45  <TrueBrain> maybe we need a place to document this :)
16:19:52  <andythenorth> except that an org like Apache might help us
16:19:55  <milek7> it seems plain OV cert helps for antiviruses
16:20:08  <andythenorth> I might have written something somewhere, I will look
16:20:19  <milek7> but windows smartscreen complains anyway
16:20:32  <TrueBrain> milek7: even the cheapest code signing certificate is still 100+ euro a year
16:20:40  <TrueBrain> so one way or the other, this is not cheap
16:20:50  <TrueBrain> it will be on-par with the infra-costs :D
16:20:53  <milek7> this is that certum cheaper one
16:21:05  <TrueBrain> on a non-personal account?
16:21:10  <milek7> on personal
16:21:21  <TrueBrain> and we are back to that ;) I thought we dismissed that clearly :)
16:21:30  <TrueBrain> so that is 2)
16:21:32  <TrueBrain> and 2) is cheaper
16:21:35  <TrueBrain> 3) an 4) are expensive
16:21:46  <milek7> but I guess I'm not allowed to publish that signed binary (as I got that certificate for different OSS project)
16:22:25  <TrueBrain> I also think we don't allow it; not sure we want to explain to people why there is a random name on their binaries :D (no offense; I appreciate you thinking with us)
16:22:59  <TrueBrain> okay, lets create a gist with facts .. this is too much bits and pieces
16:23:24  <andythenorth> TrueBrain
16:23:28  <andythenorth> that was all I had I think
16:23:37  <andythenorth> I thought there was a reddit thread
16:25:17  <andythenorth>
16:26:06  <TrueBrain> well, that thread is useless :P
16:26:17  <andythenorth> it's what it is :P
16:37:01  <TrueBrain> we need a letsencrypt for code signing tbh
16:37:09  <TrueBrain> it is kinda bullshit how this is now organized
16:37:16  <TrueBrain> bit the HTTPS of 3 years ago
16:37:40  <TrueBrain> how far does self-signing get you
16:37:41  <TrueBrain> ?
16:37:51  <andythenorth>
16:38:26  <andythenorth> dunno what this is
16:38:43  <andythenorth> large use of tag cloud in the page makes me suspicious it's bollocks
16:39:42  <Heiki> should be much easier for everyone
16:40:11  <milek7> andythenorth: it seems some other signing, not related with authenticode
16:40:32  <andythenorth> it's a blockchain scam thing
16:40:39  <andythenorth> I was initially fooled :P
16:42:54  <TrueBrain>
16:42:57  <TrueBrain> a start
16:43:00  <TrueBrain> still writing things down
16:44:32  <andythenorth> a blog post!
16:44:39  <milek7>
16:44:44  <milek7> probably cheapest for ov
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16:55:21  <frosch123> TrueBrain: <- isn't that more or less the same as sfconservancy, but european?
16:55:55  <TrueBrain> last we checked they we not really accepting projects
16:56:10  <TrueBrain> as in, it was only ideas on paper, as far
16:57:46  <frosch123> andythenorth: can we talk you into making bananas layouting? or should i ask @website-people ?
16:58:01  <andythenorth> ask first
16:58:08  <andythenorth> I will do it if nobody else will
16:58:18  <andythenorth> I am refactoring a website currently :P
16:58:33  <andythenorth> don't want 2 in my head at once
17:00:51  <TrueBrain> <- updated
17:00:55  <TrueBrain> I think that is all that was in my head
17:01:25  <milek7> "we cannot remove people who uploaded OpenTTD and charge money for that"
17:01:31  <milek7> I guess you need trademark to do that?
17:02:09  <TrueBrain> someone looked into this; cannot remember the details
17:02:22  <TrueBrain> but I believe it came down to: you cannot proof you are OpenTTD
17:02:34  <TrueBrain> so my assumption was, once you have a legal entity, you can
17:03:02  <TrueBrain> I removed that sentence for now, asI don't know the details
17:03:16  <andythenorth> TrueBrain other orgs that might have advices
17:03:27  <andythenorth> otherwise looks good to me thanks
17:03:29  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: how is that useful to me? :)
17:03:50  <TrueBrain> so many people "might" have advise :P But until someone is going to get it, I am not sure what to do with it :D
17:04:09  <andythenorth> all in one place no?
17:04:29  <andythenorth> I already went round the 'who can help' dance in November last year, and concluded I didn't know what to do next
17:04:32  <TrueBrain> put down a comment for that :)
17:04:37  <andythenorth> sure
17:04:40  <TrueBrain> tnx :)
17:04:46  <TrueBrain> not sure how to put it anywhere in this story :P
17:06:31  <TrueBrain> basically, I wrote down the information we did gather that added value. All the links and people "WHAT IS GOING ON?!", I left out :D
17:08:05  <andythenorth> ok so if we had to make only a binary choice, we have
17:08:25  <andythenorth> (A) go the known route Stichting, but we may have high costs and it's unknown how we sustain it
17:08:38  <andythenorth> (B) piss around seeing if we can get help, which is unknown
17:09:23  * andythenorth should go back to websiting
17:09:38  * andythenorth wonders how many 'send a mail' scripts are actually needed for 1 website, 4 seems like a lot
17:10:39  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: in general, there are many unknowns
17:10:51  <andythenorth> but we know some of them
17:11:37  <andythenorth> but we could be spending 00 / year to do this?
17:12:05  <andythenorth> maybe 0
17:12:55  <TrueBrain> 84 + 99 + 120 is the current sum
17:13:02  <TrueBrain> @calc 84 + 99 + 120
17:13:02  <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: 303
17:13:05  <TrueBrain> so ~300 euro
17:13:15  <TrueBrain> which is not -that- bad
17:13:36  <TrueBrain> I had to fix some things in my text, as Apple is a yearly fee :P
17:14:20  <andythenorth> oops, 503ed a live site
17:14:21  <andythenorth> BRB
17:14:27  <TrueBrain> lolz
17:14:51  <TrueBrain> frosch123 / LordAro / planetmaker / orudge : <- we could use opinions
17:21:27  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on issue #7826: Mac OS binaries are unsigned
17:21:47  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on issue #8056: OpenTTD's Windows installer should be signed
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17:25:49  <milek7> time flies fast, letsencrypt launched in 2016 ;)
17:26:10  <TrueBrain> yup
17:26:17  <TrueBrain> took them a while before they got accepted
17:26:21  <TrueBrain> and changed the world ever since
17:26:32  <TrueBrain> is also pretty cheap in their code signing certs
17:26:46  <frosch123> <- anything missing?
17:27:24  <milek7> I meant it as a nitpick to 'HTTPS certificate felt 3 years ago', as 3 years ago LE already existed
17:27:33  <TrueBrain> nice frosch123  :)
17:27:44  <TrueBrain> milek7: yes, but 3 years ago it was not mainstream yet
17:27:47  <TrueBrain> and it still felt like shit
17:27:58  <TrueBrain> so if you want to nitpick, make sure you nitpick about the right things :)
17:28:43  <frosch123> andythenorth: did you get a notification from gh about my post? or do i need to explicit highlight members?
17:28:57  <TrueBrain> frosch123: we might want to accept all these PRs after a quick review, and fix things in the repo; might make contributions easier too
17:33:55  <frosch123> right, i have 2  API questions left
17:35:24  <frosch123> 1) minor issue with /new-package: swagger says the response is "upload_token" while everything else uses dashes. the implementation actually delivers just "token". what do you want?
17:35:42  <TrueBrain> I tried to fix all the _ :P
17:35:45  <TrueBrain> they should for sure be -
17:35:59  <TrueBrain> hmm .. upload-token sounds better? What do you think?
17:36:01  <frosch123> so "token" or "upload-token" ?
17:36:03  <TrueBrain> I don't really care ..
17:36:09  <TrueBrain> change the API or change the specs
17:36:11  <TrueBrain> basically
17:36:36  <frosch123> in the get/put that follow, it says {upload_token}, but that is jsut grammar
17:36:49  <TrueBrain> change it all to upload-token?
17:36:58  <frosch123> there are many tokens, so explicit "upload-token" is likely better
17:37:48  <frosch123> 2) I need a "/user/info" endpoint or something, that says authenticated yes/no and reports the display-name
17:38:28  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/bananas-frontend-web] TrueBrain requested changes for pull request #2: Add: first version of the web front-end to new BaNaNaS server.
17:38:49  <TrueBrain> I have been thinking about something similar. But why the first?
17:38:59  <TrueBrain> you know someone is authenticated when he gets back on your redirect-url
17:39:15  <TrueBrain> or to see ifthe token is still valid?
17:39:25  <TrueBrain> I had that issue with the CLI .. I just picked a random URL for now :)
17:40:00  <andythenorth> oof I really broke a website
17:40:09  <andythenorth> recursive url broken crapness
17:40:17  <TrueBrain> owh, frosch123 , query parameters are all with _, because they is common .. lol .. not sure why I did that. Shall we make them all - ?
17:40:21  <TrueBrain> so also? content-type=blabla ?
17:40:30  <frosch123> ok, ignore the first, it is just a special return value, since getting display-name obviously needs authentication
17:40:30  <andythenorth> frosch123 I get a GH notification from that yes
17:42:10  <frosch123> TrueBrain: only ? parameters have a name, and none of them has _
17:42:56  <frosch123> andythenorth: ok, let's see whether someone responds :)
17:43:27  <frosch123> TrueBrain: i lied, /user/login has a redirect_url
17:44:13  <TrueBrain> frosch123:   '/package/{content_type}':
17:44:18  <TrueBrain> owh, those are not query-parameters, ugh
17:44:20  <TrueBrain> it is in the URL
17:44:26  <frosch123> yes, their name does not matter
17:44:33  <TrueBrain> yeah, but I guess I fix them all to -
17:44:44  <TrueBrain> also redirect-url
17:44:54  <TrueBrain> and I am going to change it into redirect-uri
17:44:56  <TrueBrain> as that is more correct :D
17:45:36  <TrueBrain> well, correct I dont care about .. more in line with OAuth
17:46:37  <TrueBrain> <- funny how the URL disagrees with the content :D
17:46:56  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/bananas-frontend-web] frosch123 commented on pull request #2: Add: first version of the web front-end to new BaNaNaS server.
17:49:33  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/bananas-frontend-web] TrueBrain commented on pull request #2: Add: first version of the web front-end to new BaNaNaS server.
17:51:06  <TrueBrain> frosch123: /user or /user/info
17:51:07  <TrueBrain> ?
17:51:41  <frosch123>  /user
17:51:51  <TrueBrain> added in the API specs
17:51:54  <TrueBrain> going to add it inthe code now
17:52:58  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/bananas-frontend-web] frosch123 commented on pull request #2: Add: first version of the web front-end to new BaNaNaS server.
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17:57:32  <TrueBrain> owh, those archived
17:57:33  <TrueBrain> gotcha
17:57:39  <TrueBrain> sorry frosch123 , yes :) They are filtered :)
17:58:08  <TrueBrain> that also makes them invisible ..
17:58:11  <TrueBrain> not sure that is the intend
17:58:33  <TrueBrain> hmm .. now I reread that function .. maybe they should just be in there,but without any versions
17:58:37  <TrueBrain> that at least means you know it once was there
17:58:52  <frosch123> they are listed on package/self
17:59:12  <frosch123> it's okay that they are not listed regulary, my intention was to filter them away :)
17:59:16  <TrueBrain> if you are the owner
17:59:20  <TrueBrain> k k
17:59:21  <TrueBrain> cool
18:00:05  <frosch123> if you know the unique id, you can also access the package page, and it will tell you tht the item is archived
18:01:17  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/bananas-api] TrueBrain updated pull request #3: Add: first version of bananas-api
18:01:26  <TrueBrain> ^^ the changes about _ to -
18:01:29  <TrueBrain> and a /user endpoint
18:01:33  <TrueBrain> I did not address the "" thingy
18:01:38  <TrueBrain> and this is not yet on staging ;)
18:01:57  <TrueBrain> I too would like these PRs merged; even if we didn't really review the code yet. Makes the flow of working a lot easier :D
18:02:44  <frosch123> you missed authorize_url and bearer_token
18:02:50  <TrueBrain> no?
18:02:57  <TrueBrain> I fixed those .... I think
18:03:18  <TrueBrain> I did fix them! :)
18:03:23  <TrueBrain> I was about to say .. I looked at that code :P
18:03:31  <frosch123>
18:03:38  <TrueBrain> yes .. now check the Schema :)
18:03:46  <TrueBrain> that is one of the beauties about the schema-system :)
18:03:50  <TrueBrain> internal name != external name :P
18:04:01  <TrueBrain> I need to convert it to an object internally, instead of a Python dict
18:04:04  <TrueBrain> it is confusing as fuck
18:04:11  <frosch123> ok :)
18:04:19  <TrueBrain> I have felt for this many times ...
18:04:27  <TrueBrain> because it is Python, the internal name is with a _
18:04:45  <TrueBrain> dump({}) converts from internal to external
18:04:47  <frosch123> yes, same in frontend :p
18:04:58  <TrueBrain> in schema it has display_name = fields...(data_key="display-name")
18:05:03  <TrueBrain> which does the mapping
18:05:25  <TrueBrain> that is why I usually never use -, but always _
18:05:29  <TrueBrain> but ... a new world ... :D
18:05:31  *** Progman has joined #openttd
18:06:01  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/bananas-api] frosch123 approved pull request #3: Add: first version of bananas-api
18:06:27  <michi_cc> TrueBrain: FWIW I would tend to an EU entity, too. There's just too much potential "national security" crap for an US entity.
18:06:59  <TrueBrain> sorry michi_cc , forgot to highlight you, but I would love your input on the gist too :D (besides this, ofc)
18:07:03  <TrueBrain> glx: same for you, ofc
18:07:10  <TrueBrain> who else am I forgetting .... oops
18:07:24  <TrueBrain> for reference
18:07:58  <TrueBrain> frosch123: I broke my regression now :D Hihi, let me fix
18:08:38  <frosch123> i guess that's an improvement over "save before commit"
18:08:57  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/bananas-api] TrueBrain dismissed a review for pull request #3: Add: first version of bananas-api
18:08:57  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/bananas-api] TrueBrain updated pull request #3: Add: first version of bananas-api
18:09:05  <TrueBrain> I am really happy with GitHub Actions :D
18:09:32  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/bananas-api] frosch123 approved pull request #3: Add: first version of bananas-api
18:10:21  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/bananas-api] TrueBrain merged pull request #3: Add: first version of bananas-api
18:10:22  <TrueBrain> 1 down, 3 to go
18:11:13  <TrueBrain> lol, no tags, so it fails to publish .. let me fix that
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18:11:53  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/bananas-api] TrueBrain created new tag: 0.0.0
18:12:34  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/bananas-server] TrueBrain created new tag: 0.0.0
18:12:43  <michi_cc> TrueBrain: orudge for being the current money handler?
18:12:48  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/bananas-frontend-cli] TrueBrain created new tag: 0.0.0
18:13:03  <TrueBrain> michi_cc: yeah, was planning on sending him an email about it; as he rarely reads his IRC backlog :)
18:13:20  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/bananas-frontend-web] TrueBrain created new tag: 0.0.0
18:13:24  <TrueBrain> that solves the bookkeeping of the new repos
18:14:16  <TrueBrain> and ofc I forgot to set all kind of secrets .. lolz
18:14:20  <frosch123> orudge is sometimes us based
18:17:08  <TrueBrain> hmm .. I cannot retrigger GitHub actions now .. bah
18:17:24  <TrueBrain> guess I need to fix something ..
18:18:42  <michi_cc> As far as I can see, an EV certificate needs to be kept on a separate hardware key store. I'm not sure if would be possible to integrate that to a cloud-based release workflow.
18:19:27  <TrueBrain> I haven't even looked at that part yet ...
18:19:36  <TrueBrain> and I think we should aim for an OV for at least the first year
18:20:23  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/bananas-api] dependabot-preview[bot] opened pull request #4: Bump gitpython from 3.1.0 to 3.1.1
18:20:42  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/bananas-api] dependabot-preview[bot] opened pull request #5: Bump gitdb from 4.0.2 to 4.0.4
18:20:50  <TrueBrain> omg, it does it dep by dep?
18:20:56  <TrueBrain> sorry, I did not know .. was testing the new GitHub dep-bot
18:21:04  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/bananas-api] dependabot-preview[bot] opened pull request #6: Bump botocore from 1.15.36 to 1.15.39
18:21:24  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/bananas-api] dependabot-preview[bot] opened pull request #7: Bump aioauth-client from 0.19.2 to 0.20.3
18:21:45  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/bananas-api] dependabot-preview[bot] opened pull request #8: Bump smmap from 3.0.1 to 3.0.2
18:22:21  <TrueBrain> this was not the spam I was looking for
18:22:22  <TrueBrain> who does this ...
18:25:19  <TrueBrain> I guess if it checks daily, it is also easier to bump stuff .. hmm ..
18:25:26  <TrueBrain> monthly one, or daily many .. not sure ..
18:25:53  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/bananas-api] TrueBrain closed pull request #8: Bump smmap from 3.0.1 to 3.0.2
18:25:55  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/bananas-api] dependabot-preview[bot] commented on pull request #8: Bump smmap from 3.0.1 to 3.0.2
18:25:57  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/bananas-api] TrueBrain closed pull request #7: Bump aioauth-client from 0.19.2 to 0.20.3
18:25:59  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/bananas-api] dependabot-preview[bot] commented on pull request #7: Bump aioauth-client from 0.19.2 to 0.20.3
18:26:03  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/bananas-api] TrueBrain closed pull request #6: Bump botocore from 1.15.36 to 1.15.39
18:26:05  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/bananas-api] dependabot-preview[bot] commented on pull request #6: Bump botocore from 1.15.36 to 1.15.39
18:26:09  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/bananas-api] TrueBrain closed pull request #5: Bump gitdb from 4.0.2 to 4.0.4
18:26:11  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/bananas-api] dependabot-preview[bot] commented on pull request #5: Bump gitdb from 4.0.2 to 4.0.4
18:26:12  <TrueBrain> sorry for the spam :(
18:26:15  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/bananas-api] TrueBrain closed pull request #4: Bump gitpython from 3.1.0 to 3.1.1
18:26:17  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/bananas-api] dependabot-preview[bot] commented on pull request #4: Bump gitpython from 3.1.0 to 3.1.1
18:26:25  <TrueBrain> it should be silent now :P
18:26:43  <rotterdxm> eh it´s all in the game. progress is being made
18:27:07  <frosch123> lol, i was filtering whether tb said something important between the spam, but he only complained about the spam :)
18:27:21  <TrueBrain> :D
18:27:47  <milek7> officially, some providers also require hardware store for ov (eg. certum)
18:28:20  <Samu> this... certificate talk is quite hard for me to digest
18:29:29  <Samu> just "run anyway"
18:32:06  <michi_cc> TrueBrain: Put some comments on the gist.
18:32:11  <TrueBrain> michi_cc: thank you!
18:32:37  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/bananas-api] TrueBrain opened pull request #9: Update: bump all requirements to the latest version
18:33:19  <Samu> _dp_ are you around?
18:33:32  <_dp_> no :p
18:33:49  <Samu> did u figure the time complexity or you didn't bother at all
18:34:31  <TrueBrain> okay, found a clean PR to make to bananas-api :D
18:34:33  <Samu> I plan on uploading this "native heap" to bananas, but with proper documentation
18:34:40  <_dp_> I figured it's too time complex
18:34:56  <TrueBrain> michi_cc: "For Apple, the certificate seems to included in the developer account" <- do you happen to have a source or reference?
18:35:06  <TrueBrain> as mostly I wonder if we can reuse that certificate for Windows, ofc :D
18:35:10  <michi_cc>
18:35:28  <michi_cc> "Distribute your Mac apps, plug-ins, and installer packages outside of the Mac App Store by signing them with a Developer ID certificate and having them notarized by Apple."
18:35:37  <TrueBrain> interesting
18:35:54  <michi_cc> I'd be surprised if Windows would include that CA as trusted.
18:36:12  <TrueBrain> <- Apple doesn't list The Netherlands, booooo
18:36:45  <dwfreed> and pay 0/year
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18:37:30  <Samu> South Korea? that's surprising, considering Samsung
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18:38:23  <TrueBrain> random? that's surprising, considering random
18:39:29  <frosch123> dwfreed: wasn't it 100/month?
18:39:53  <dwfreed> "The Apple Developer Program is 99 USD per membership year"
18:40:08  <TrueBrain> it was a typo in my gist, fixed a while ago :D
18:40:23  <frosch123> ah :)
18:40:40  <Samu> that's still 8.25 a month. it's money
18:40:45  <TrueBrain> frosch123: mind approving ? :D Want to test auto-deploy :P
18:41:20  <frosch123> certifi==2020.4.5.1 <- it looked like a date before, but no more :p
18:41:33  <TrueBrain> it still is somewhat of a date :P
18:41:36  <TrueBrain> not sure what happened
18:41:39  <michi_cc> A German "Verein" might also be possible, but at a first glance it looks more complicated than a Stichting.
18:41:50  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/bananas-api] frosch123 approved pull request #9: Update: bump all requirements to the latest version
18:41:53  <TrueBrain> ah, 2 releases on the same day
18:41:55  <TrueBrain> so they just fucked up :P
18:42:15  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/bananas-api] TrueBrain merged pull request #9: Update: bump all requirements to the latest version
18:42:16  <frosch123> michi_cc: there is this traditional joke abuot having 7 members, no idey whether it is a myth
18:42:17  <TrueBrain> michi_cc: in what way?
18:42:35  <TrueBrain> I hope it is a myth. A stichting can even be 1 member :P
18:42:44  <TrueBrain> Stichting is Dutch for foundation btw
18:43:13  <michi_cc> frosch123: That's not a joke, you do indeed need 7 members to register a Verein and at least three at all times to still be valid.
18:43:15  <frosch123> what do 7 germans do when they meet, they found a verein
18:43:24  <TrueBrain> lolz
18:43:31  <TrueBrain> okay, that is a bit much for us :D
18:43:48  <nielsm> frosch123 that one's just 3 persons in denmark
18:44:57  <michi_cc> A "Stiftung" would be the direct equivalent to foundation, but to get registered you need to "prove that the Stiftung as enough founds to fullfill its prupose", as determined by some bureaucrats
18:47:47  <TrueBrain> michi_cc: as we need no funds, that is easy? :)
18:47:59  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/bananas-api] TrueBrain opened pull request #10: Fix: [Actions] deployment was not triggered for staging
18:48:11  <TrueBrain> ^^ is just stupid. Some things you cannot test with GitHub Actions .. this is an example of that :D
18:48:34  <nielsm> and they probably have a lower limit for something that would be deemed frivolous
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18:49:50  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/bananas-api] frosch123 approved pull request #10: Fix: [Actions] deployment was not triggered for staging
18:49:51  <TrueBrain> looked it up, here you do not need to proof anything funds related to create a Stichting
18:49:53  <michi_cc> TrueBrain: A Stiftung is usually assumed to have enough capital to e.g. pay for the certificate costs from the interest.
18:50:01  <frosch123> i see, i am not the only one who c&p from tb
18:50:04  <TrueBrain> the only thing is that you need to show stuff for the VAT stuff
18:50:38  <TrueBrain> to become VAT excempt, you need to show you don't make more than 15000 euro a year in profit
18:50:39  <TrueBrain> lolz
18:51:00  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/bananas-api] TrueBrain merged pull request #10: Fix: [Actions] deployment was not triggered for staging
18:51:02  <TrueBrain> frosch123: no .... you are not :D
18:51:26  <TrueBrain> okay .. this time staging should auto-update I guess :)
18:51:32  <TrueBrain> would be nice
18:51:41  <michi_cc> Without being a laywer, I'd guess for German law, a Verein is the best matching thing. For example, US/global Wikipedia is organized as an US foundation, while the German entity is an Eingetragener Verein and not A Stiftung.
18:52:07  <TrueBrain> but we are not going to find 7 people to start it up :(
18:52:21  <FLHerne> Do they all have to be German?
18:52:27  <TrueBrain> please btw write this in the gist; before another german person looks it up :D
18:52:48  <FLHerne> 7 EU citizens might be plausible
18:53:09  <FLHerne> But of course some of us don't count for that anymore :-(
18:53:37  <frosch123> i would also guess eu-citizen is enough, but no idea
18:54:33  <TrueBrain> in a Stiching, it is just "a real person", no matter what your country is
18:55:18  <TrueBrain> I would guess that holds true in every EU country
18:55:43  <michi_cc> Not sure, but I think any real person would count for a Verein as well. Even then, it is still more work as you need proper bylaws, a yearly memebers meeting and probably other stuff I don't know about.
18:56:01  <TrueBrain> ah, a Dutch "vereniging", yeah
18:56:05  <TrueBrain> lot of paperwork
18:56:19  <TrueBrain> especially the yearly meeting is annoying as ....
18:56:23  <frosch123> ah, everyone can be member of a verein, you do not even need to live in germany
18:56:31  <frosch123> but children need the approval of their parents
18:56:36  <frosch123> so andy counts as 3? :p
18:56:42  <TrueBrain> but what I did, I called a company over here which creates companies for a living
18:56:46  <TrueBrain> talked to a notary for 20 minutes
18:56:49  <TrueBrain> they didnt even charge me
18:56:53  <TrueBrain> gave ma a lot of good information
18:57:35  <michi_cc> The rules for a Verein are a lot simpler (i.e. almost non-existant), but for legal purposes only a Eingetragener Verein would make sense.
18:57:39  <TrueBrain> also explained the process, what they take care of, etc etc
18:57:40  <TrueBrain> was nice
18:58:08  <planetmaker> good evening. We have two e-mails which independently claim that "with the new version" they cannot open old saves
18:58:39  <TrueBrain> oh-oh
18:58:48  <michi_cc> The old saves don't happen to be from JGR, do they?
18:58:51  <TrueBrain> quick, find someone to blame!
18:59:00  <planetmaker> They're one-line e-mails ;)
18:59:07  <planetmaker> the game have reached it expiration date and no longer works. even the latest version can no longer establish a multiplayer connection, nor play on maps other than desert.
18:59:14  <planetmaker> and
18:59:17  <nielsm> exceptional claims require exceptional proof!
18:59:17  <planetmaker> I downloaded the new version of OpenTdd in Windows 10 and a game that i have been playing for several days now I can't open it. Can you help me?
18:59:23  <planetmaker> yeah, agreed
19:00:07  * andythenorth could look up UK legal orgs
19:00:10  <andythenorth> but BBBBBrexit
19:00:22  <planetmaker> wow, certificates are expensive
19:01:33  <TrueBrain> planetmaker: yes; but < 300 euros is doable for everything, so that is not a huge amount of money
19:01:51  <TrueBrain> I believe the amount of donations, even without us asking for any in a prominent way, is sufficient to pay for that
19:02:08  <planetmaker> well. nevertheless, I think 300€/a is quite something
19:02:27  <TrueBrain> well, for sure this is the new money-maker for CAs
19:02:32  <TrueBrain> you would think they have learnt
19:02:34  <TrueBrain> but nnoooooo
19:02:40  <michi_cc> An OV certificate is not that much, it's only the EV ones that are really expensive.
19:03:32  <planetmaker> what is OV and EV?
19:03:34  <TrueBrain> yeah, OV cert + Apple dev + bankaccount makes ~300 euro a year
19:03:38  <TrueBrain> OV is a simple cert
19:03:42  <andythenorth> hmm all 3 automated validators say I have fixed my website mistakes :x
19:03:44  <andythenorth> hurrah
19:03:45  <TrueBrain> EV is you giving them papers to rpoof you are you
19:04:09  <TrueBrain> EV stands for extended-validation
19:04:11  <TrueBrain> if that helps
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19:05:34  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/bananas-frontend-cli] TrueBrain updated pull request #1: Add: a very basic CLI frontend for BaNaNaS API
19:05:52  <TrueBrain> frosch123: master is now auto-deploying to staging, so that should make testing easier
19:05:59  <TrueBrain> I will see if I can do the same for the frontend tomorrow
19:06:36  <milek7> I don't know how it works for companies, for OV for person they want ID card scan, and scan of some bill issued for my address (water, electricity, etc.)
19:07:14  <planetmaker> ty for the explanation
19:07:24  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/bananas-frontend-web] auge8472 commented on pull request #2: Add: first version of the web front-end to new BaNaNaS server.
19:07:27  <TrueBrain> frosch123: hopefully that helps moving people in helping :) If they can see how it looks etc :)
19:07:51  <TrueBrain> s/moving/motivating/
19:08:44  <TrueBrain> planetmaker: regarding the money, it seems all developers that don't want their users to complain about "unknown publisher" are forced this direction. I am mostly annoyed that it is a returning fee .. like once you did the OV validation .. why pay so much money AGAIN the next year?
19:08:58  <TrueBrain> has the best price for that. If you pay 10 years upfront, it is very cheap all of a sudden
19:09:13  <TrueBrain> just .. I won't .. suggest us doing that :D
19:09:28  <TrueBrain> anyway, it seems to be we just have to accept the costs :(
19:09:47  <frosch123> or find some other project :p
19:10:25  <frosch123> what was the other project we always copied from?
19:10:32  <frosch123> battle for wesnoth
19:10:36  <frosch123> does that still exist?
19:10:42  <TrueBrain> we copy stuff from things?
19:10:49  <TrueBrain> is this game reversed engineered?!
19:10:50  <frosch123> simutrans is probably too small
19:11:09  <frosch123> TrueBrain: we shared a bunch of sdl issues at some point
19:11:11  <planetmaker> battle of wesnoth *does* have an Inc for this stuff we discuss
19:11:24  <TrueBrain> who copied from who, is the question :)
19:11:33  <TrueBrain> Simutrans does too :)
19:11:39  <frosch123> i think they filed a patch to debian that broke ottd
19:12:08  <planetmaker> wesnoth?
19:13:18  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/bananas-frontend-web] auge8472 commented on pull request #2: Add: first version of the web front-end to new BaNaNaS server.
19:13:24  <frosch123> <- last paragraph of first section
19:14:27  <TrueBrain> well, we need something like that too :P
19:14:32  <TrueBrain> just not the "US-based" part
19:15:20  <frosch123> they charge 4.49€ on apple store
19:15:29  <TrueBrain> wuth?! Holy crap
19:15:48  <TrueBrain> I still think we should provide cloud-saves for a 1 euro a year fee or what-ever
19:15:52  <TrueBrain> that would pay for all this crap
19:16:00  <frosch123> free on steam
19:16:10  <TrueBrain> if we implement the steam callbacks, but yes
19:16:38  <andythenorth> dorpsgek for bananas repos? o_O
19:16:49  <milek7> steamworks sdk is problem for GPL I guess
19:16:50  * andythenorth volunteers LordAro 
19:16:54  <TrueBrain> random words with a questionmark?! o_O
19:17:11  <andythenorth> TB don't worry LordAro is on it
19:17:18  <andythenorth> I'm sure
19:17:44  <andythenorth> oh I'm an idiot, I should read up
19:17:58  *** arikover has quit IRC
19:18:17  <andythenorth> well there has to be at least one idiot in the channel at all times, today it is me
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19:18:49  <LordAro> i'd rather not bother with steam, tbh
19:18:54  <LordAro> there's no benefit to it for us
19:19:55  <TrueBrain> I don't agree; I think the audiance would be nice. Integrating with Steam .. not a big fan :)
19:20:39  <planetmaker> Well, you pay to be in apple store. So fair enough to charge there :) iOS people have money they want to give away :P
19:20:54  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/bananas-frontend-web] auge8472 commented on pull request #2: Add: first version of the web front-end to new BaNaNaS server.
19:21:39  <TrueBrain> frosch123: seems you request-for-help did trigger someone :) Nice :)
19:21:48  <planetmaker> I think the Steam audience is actually quite large and it's also a nice convenience gain for many
19:21:49  <andythenorth> this is ^^ why I won't do the html for anything any more
19:22:00  <andythenorth> all of this has to be replied to
19:22:17  <TrueBrain> he has some good points; I don't see why you are bothered with it
19:22:27  <TrueBrain> happy someone takes an interest with know-how
19:22:45  <andythenorth> it's not helping, it's just nitpick
19:22:50  <andythenorth> it's like the nitpick on the blog posts
19:23:04  <TrueBrain> it is not nitpicking; Having a <p><ul></ul></p> does not do what you expect
19:23:04  <andythenorth> helping is a PR
19:23:11  <TrueBrain> he has made several PRs
19:23:14  <andythenorth> yes
19:23:25  <TrueBrain> basically, your complain atm is: he points out things that are wrong
19:23:27  <andythenorth> optimising 'JFDI please fix it' html misses the point
19:23:41  <andythenorth> oof
19:23:52  * andythenorth won't be person arguing on the internet about meaningless stuff
19:24:11  <TrueBrain> mostly because I am pretty sure I was more nitpicking in my review :D
19:24:32  <TrueBrain> the one thing people do have to learn, is that it is okay to disagree on feedback :)
19:24:39  <TrueBrain> like many things people commented in the CMake branch
19:24:48  <TrueBrain> sure, they may have a point .. but no, it is not worth the effort
19:25:05  <TrueBrain> so I am happy they reviewed; and I am going to ignore most part of it :)
19:25:09  <andythenorth> it's ok to disagree on feedback when you have commit rights
19:25:14  <andythenorth> it's very different when you're a peon
19:25:31  <TrueBrain> I doubt you let yourself be used as a peon ;)
19:28:24  <andythenorth> how many days left for Bananas?
19:28:51  <TrueBrain> okay, seems a Stiching will also get a DUNS number, and that holds true for any company in EU :P
19:28:56  <TrueBrain> well, it is part of NATO
19:29:01  <TrueBrain> so I guess any company in the world
19:29:41  <frosch123> what? as a stiching we are part of nato?
19:29:45  <andythenorth> also the name is just cool
19:29:56  <frosch123> do we need to supply soldiers with free copies?
19:30:04  <andythenorth> no war theme frosch123
19:30:21  <andythenorth> civil defence forces
19:30:39  <TrueBrain> frosch123: no, I never said that :)
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19:31:49  <TrueBrain> owh, it is even the UN. The UN, ISO and EC use DUNS as validation method
19:32:07  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/bananas-frontend-web] auge8472 commented on pull request #2: Add: first version of the web front-end to new BaNaNaS server.
19:34:11  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/bananas-frontend-web] TrueBrain commented on pull request #2: Add: first version of the web front-end to new BaNaNaS server.
19:35:25  <milek7> "This number is assigned once our patented identity resolution process, part of our DUNSRight methodology, identifies a company as being unique from any other in the Dun & Bradstreet Data Cloud. "
19:35:40  <milek7> from website alone I would think it is a scam :P
19:35:51  <TrueBrain> yeah ...
19:35:58  <TrueBrain> but it appears to be a real thing
19:43:11  <michi_cc> andythenorth: Totally different question: when you resize the OpenTTD window on Mac, do you see a proper window content during the resize or some random junk?
19:43:20  <nielsm> I guess the purpose might be to limit scamming by shutting down and reforming a company under new name/government registration numbers?
19:44:05  <TrueBrain> I tink it is a solution for the fact that every country does things slightly different
19:44:09  <andythenorth> michi_cc random junk, like a desynced TV signal
19:44:11  <TrueBrain> and some things are more a legal entity than others
19:44:19  <nielsm> that too
19:44:44  <michi_cc> Thanks, so its real and not some VM junk.
19:45:00  <frosch123> TrueBrain: is "wsgi server" something we would use when deploying the frontend?
19:45:19  <frosch123> or would be run the simple "development server"
19:46:14  <michi_cc> andythenorth: Would a simple stretch/shrink of the current window contents or just plain black be better? Not sure a proper repaint would be possible with how OTTD internally handles painting.
19:46:17  <TrueBrain> not sure, honestly. I have to check that. I believe the flask development server really cannot run in production
19:46:27  <TrueBrain> so I think I will make a Docker with an nginx in it, and talk to flask over wsgi
19:46:46  <TrueBrain> but I haven't toyed with flask in a long time .. so I have to get my hands dirty to give a better answer :)
19:47:10  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/bananas-frontend-web] frosch123 updated pull request #2: Add: first version of the web front-end to new BaNaNaS server.
19:47:27  <frosch123> only one TODO left, and that's the configuration
19:47:40  <frosch123> "--" does not work when running flask via the module
19:47:49  <frosch123> so i assume it would also not work for wsgi?
19:47:59  <frosch123> i need to read up on wsgi, what that actually is then
19:48:35  <frosch123>
19:48:50  <TrueBrain> can I safely assume you did one thing or the other with my comments? :D
19:49:20  <frosch123> i applied all your comments
19:49:25  <frosch123> the mentioned TODO is open
19:49:51  <frosch123> i applied the "error" comments from auge, and ignored the "better layout" comments
19:49:59  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/bananas-frontend-web] TrueBrain approved pull request #2: Add: first version of the web front-end to new BaNaNaS server.
19:50:02  <TrueBrain> I asked, because that means I can do that ^^ :P
19:50:38  <TrueBrain> we need to fix some things, like the README is rather incomplete, and more of that stuff. But this is a good start :)
19:52:16  <andythenorth> michi_cc without seeing it....I would guess plain black
19:52:17  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/bananas-frontend-web] frosch123 merged pull request #2: Add: first version of the web front-end to new BaNaNaS server.
19:52:36  <TrueBrain> nice frosch123  :)
19:52:47  <TrueBrain> 2 down, 2 to go :) (bananas-server and bananas-frontend-cli)
19:52:54  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/bananas-frontend-web] frosch123 commented on pull request #2: Add: first version of the web front-end to new BaNaNaS server.
19:52:57  <TrueBrain> but those two are less important
19:54:35  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/bananas-frontend-web] TrueBrain commented on pull request #2: Add: first version of the web front-end to new BaNaNaS server.
19:55:26  <TrueBrain> frosch123: if you are interested in uwsgi etc, feel free to look into it. If you are not, don't worry too much about it .. I have most likely a Dockerfile somewhere to copy/paste from :D
19:55:52  <TrueBrain> or stuff like this might help
19:55:57  <frosch123> i would like to know how it is started. and where to pass parameters
19:56:08  <frosch123> i have only 4 config vars
19:58:16  <TrueBrain> "--pyargv "foo bar""
19:58:20  <TrueBrain> not something I would have guessed
19:58:21  <TrueBrain> lol
19:58:39  <TrueBrain> so the Dockerfile needs a tiny wrapper script to make that sane :)
19:59:41  <TrueBrain> yeah, and the dev-server can only serve 1 request at the time .. which is not good for performance
19:59:44  <TrueBrain> so we really need uwsgi
19:59:55  <TrueBrain> so nginx + uwsgi + flask needs to be in the Dockerfile
20:00:09  <TrueBrain> right, I had enough of this day; good night all
20:00:54  <andythenorth> bye TB
20:06:51  <frosch123> is there a new github competitor? why are they lowering prices?
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20:19:31  <TrueBrain> nielsm : what do you consider one structure or the other? (Your comment on the gist)
20:21:17  <Samu>
20:21:35  <Samu> I'm about to upload this to bananas, but before I do, someone disapprove of it?
20:21:53  <Samu> it won't include the git attributes file, of course
20:22:39  <Samu> I wish Zuu was here, or Yexo
20:22:48  <Samu> or whoever designed the priority queues
20:23:53  <Samu> AyStar requires a Queue Class, this one could be used to make it faster
20:24:19  <Samu> that's one of the use cases (and only?)
20:27:38  <nielsm> TrueBrain, I suppose a foundation focuses on the holding and distribution of funds, while an association focuses on protecting the interests of the members, but maybe I'm totally off
20:29:20  <TrueBrain> I am so lost in definitions, especially between countries :D so this explanation works for me :) tnx, and I agree :)
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20:30:15  <Samu> which GPL version is OpenTTD? 2 or 3
20:31:14  <nielsm> which is also why a foundation-like structure will typically require a sufficient capital to incorporate, while an association will mainly just require sufficient members and a well-written bylaws
20:31:37  <glx> Samu: 2
20:31:47  <TrueBrain> A stichting, which is a foundation, is not aimed at capital
20:31:54  <Samu> ok, uploading as 2
20:31:57  <TrueBrain> This is why this stuff is so confusing :)
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20:32:09  <nielsm> yeah...
20:32:25  <TrueBrain> But I get what you mean; that is more important :D
20:33:19  <nielsm> in the end maybe it's more important to make _some_ choice, there may be multiple equally valid ones
20:33:29  <TrueBrain> Yup
20:33:44  <TrueBrain> I see most people circle towards setting up our own entity
20:34:17  <TrueBrain> With that I guess we vote against doing it on a personal name or using an umbrella corp
20:34:28  <nielsm> joining under the banner of someone else feels wrong to me, especially if it's some org more focused on utilitarian software
20:35:11  <TrueBrain> If we all agree on that .. we just need someone willing to do this in their country :p
20:35:17  <TrueBrain> Which mostly consumes time
20:35:17  <nielsm> otoh if there was some association/foundation for open source games that would be perfect
20:35:43  <TrueBrain> Please Google and see if you can find one .. possibly in your own country
20:35:52  <TrueBrain> That would be perfect tbh
20:37:15  <TrueBrain> I will check this week some more in depth about a Stichting, just to have that picture complete
20:37:43  <TrueBrain> Stuff like how the VAT exempt works, and how a bank account works
20:37:54  <andythenorth> oof is it sleeping time?
20:40:41  <milek7> it's not that you will sell anything, so VAT doesn't matter anyway?
20:41:43  <nielsm> VAT on purchase of certificates and running servers may be deductible since those are business expenses?
20:42:06  <TrueBrain> Having nothing to declare and not having to declare are two different things :)
20:42:14  <nielsm> but yeah that requires income from sale of a product or service I think
20:44:34  <TrueBrain> For years I had my own company .. one thing I learnt is how to reduce the amount of paperwork you have to push yearly :D
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20:46:50  <Samu>
20:47:15  *** slash_ has joined #openttd
20:47:23  <Samu> is it possible, in the future version of bananas, to download previous versions of my AIs?
20:48:04  <andythenorth> TrueBrain can you send me a memo about that :P
20:48:55  <andythenorth> admin is my biggest irrational fear
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20:52:57  <slash_> hey everyone - sorry if dumb question (have some c++ experience but never with a project this large, so the makefile for example is quite intimidating :| ) - i was able to get the source code and compile the game (via make, then make bundle) - modified some of the language files and then compiled/make again - all works fine - only issue is each time I do it I'm having to manually create the baseset directory and add the grf and sfx files in the bundle
20:52:57  <slash_>  directory. Is there a way I can make sure the bundle always includes these ? Am thinking I must have to add something to the makefile ? thanks
20:53:32  <slash_> sorry if not right place to ask
20:53:52  <nielsm> hmm, by the baseset files what exactly do you mean?
20:54:25  <nielsm> the base GRF files, or the OBG/OBS/OBM files for supporting the original game data?
20:54:50  <nielsm> also which platform are you on?
20:56:51  <slash_> hey - MacOS (am just using sublime as IDE for now - not XCode (though I have it) - and after doing (1) make  then (2) make bundle    -- i have to go into the 'bundle' directory and create baseset directory - and then add the files from the base GRF and SFX pack  --> sample files include: ogfx1_base.grf, ogfxc_arctic.grf, opensfx.obs  etc
20:57:31  <frosch123> ogfx is not part of openttd, it is not bundled
20:58:02  <nielsm> you can put the baseset files in your user profile (settings) though
20:58:20  <nielsm> instead of inside the bundle
20:58:43  <slash_> sorry if dumb question - which user profile/settings you referring to?
20:58:51  <slash_> like where should i put them
20:59:31  <nielsm> uh I think it's the Application Support folder in your home folder?
20:59:36  <frosch123> <- ~/Documents/OpenTTD/baseset
20:59:36  <glx> usual locations are in the readme
20:59:37  <slash_> okay so MacOS
20:59:39  <nielsm> I rarely work on mac so can't remember exactly
21:00:07  <frosch123> glx: not anymore :p readme has a link though
21:00:39  <slash_> ah okay one sec
21:01:27  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] MinchinWeb commented on pull request #93: Add release workflow
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21:01:46  <slash_> i am 99% sure that directory (Documents/OptenTTD/<a bunch of stuff>)  was actually automatically created when i first succesfully built it - so that would make a lot of sense
21:02:07  <slash_> (i used to have the game installed a year or two ago so wasn't sure if i just hadn't deleted it)
21:02:08  <nielsm> it gets created on first run
21:02:22  <slash_> kkkkk one sec will test
21:05:51  <slash_> nice ! thank you @nielsm @frosch123  that did it.
21:06:25  <nielsm> cool
21:06:38  * andythenorth is glad someone made me keep that directory structure doc :D
21:06:39  <nielsm> and yeah the bundle is really only supposed to contain files produced by the build
21:06:43  <andythenorth> I was all for deleting
21:06:48  <slash_> 😂
21:07:18  <slash_> okay - and since the grf/sfx stuff (usually) never changes makes sense to keep it separate
21:07:50  <andythenorth> it is / was a Mac convention to keep application docs in the Documents folder
21:07:55  <LordAro> @topic set 1 1.10.1
21:07:55  *** DorpsGek changes topic to "1.10.1 | Website: * (source: github, translator: translator, server list: servers, wiki: wiki) | Don't ask to ask, just ask | 'Latest' is not a valid version, 'Most recent' neither | English only"
21:08:03  <andythenorth> I did read the guidelines once :P
21:08:54  <glx> andythenorth: probably was
21:08:54  <nielsm> andythenorth well things like baseset, newgrfs and AI scripts aren't really "documents"
21:08:59  <glx> same for windows
21:09:16  <nielsm> savegames and scenarios (created by the local user) are
21:09:41  <andythenorth> there was some rationale for it, I initially disagreed, so I looked it up and I was wrong :D
21:09:43  <andythenorth> also bedtime
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21:09:57  <glx> but it's easier for us to have everything in one place
21:10:10  <nielsm> I guess maybe it falls under "the user may want to mess with these files manually"
21:10:43  <glx> yeah navigating in AppData to add newgrf manually would be a pain :)
21:10:45  <nielsm> so you don't need a button in-app to "open game content folder in finder" if they want to manage it
21:10:51  *** frosch123 has quit IRC
21:11:21  <nielsm> although perhaps the newgrf manager window could use a "reveal in <OS file browser>" button
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21:15:45  <LordAro> nielsm: the tricky bit is "OS file browser" :p
21:16:09  <nielsm> it would definitely need to be implemented per platform
21:16:24  <nielsm> quite easy on windows and mac
21:16:38  <nielsm> other systems, whoknows
21:16:58  <slash_> srry another dumb question - is there an option to show the cost of a station before its built ? like have the cost of the selected configuration (ie: a 3 track, 5 platform length train station) hover along with the cursor?
21:17:08  <glx> shift
21:17:09  <nielsm> hold shift while building
21:17:10  <slash_> i looked through advanced settings quick couldn't find anything but prob missing it
21:17:10  <slash_> ah
21:17:12  <slash_> ty
21:18:09  <glx> <-- many useful "hidden" stuff :)
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21:18:53  <milek7> nielsm: on others xdg-open
21:19:29  <nielsm> milek7, does that also have a feature to pre-select a specific file in a folder?
21:19:36  <milek7> no
21:19:46  <nielsm> then it isn't entirely "reveal"
21:26:25  <LordAro> opening the correct folder is probably enough
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21:35:06  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh updated pull request #7924: Feature: Water tiles have a depth
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21:43:29  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/bananas-frontend-web] auge8472 opened pull request #3: Change: embed the main headings of all pages in header-elements
21:45:53  <Samu> Road pathfinder with binary heap -> 11356 ticks
21:46:31  <Samu> Road pathfinder with the " > 0 " fix and with native heap -> 6656 ticks
21:46:50  <Samu> @calc 6656/11356
21:46:50  <DorpsGek> Samu: 0.586121873899
21:46:59  <Samu> so much time shoved
21:48:06  *** nielsm is now known as Guest22247
21:48:37  <Samu> the v15 of my AI is currently experimenting with this native heap
21:49:09  <Samu> I'm seriously impressed with the gains
21:49:39  <Samu> it's getting too late, gotta go, take care
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21:57:15  <_dp_> oh, I know what text query popup would be perfect for
21:57:30  *** gelignite has quit IRC
21:57:30  <_dp_> to ask unnamed players for a proper name
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22:18:41  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/bananas-frontend-web] TrueBrain approved pull request #3: Change: embed the main headings of all pages in header-elements
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22:20:25  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/bananas-frontend-web] TrueBrain commented on pull request #3: Change: embed the main headings of all pages in header-elements
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23:03:30  <FLHerne> _dp_: Reddit S1 just kicks them, they either get the hint or don't :P
23:04:49  <_dp_> we don't have that many players to afford kicking them left and right xD

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