Log for #openttd on 25th April 2020:
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00:04:33  *** Wormnest_ has quit IRC
00:05:47  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] LordAro updated pull request #103: Blacken & Flake8 nml
00:08:00  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] LordAro commented on pull request #103: Blacken & Flake8 nml
00:36:55  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/website] somini opened pull request #157: Include final URL
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00:42:02  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] FLHerne commented on pull request #103: Blacken & Flake8 nml
00:42:43  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/website] somini commented on pull request #157: Include final URL
00:44:18  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] LordAro commented on pull request #103: Blacken & Flake8 nml
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00:49:44  <FLHerne> LordAro: Hm, I should try and get my nmlop changes finished and in before your huge reshuffle
00:49:56  <FLHerne> Otherwise rebasing them will be a nightmare :-/
00:53:58  <LordAro> FLHerne: but then *I* would have a nightmare rebase
00:54:00  <LordAro> :p
00:54:26  <LordAro> more pressingly, we need to release 0.5.0
00:54:43  <LordAro> even more pressingly, i should go to sleep
00:54:59  <FLHerne> Yeah, but yours is automated, and not done by a mixture of insane regexes that I lost months ago and hand-editing :P
00:56:09  <FLHerne> I don't quite get your comment on the PR about hand-editing the spaces; weren't they mostly aligned sanely to begin with?
00:56:44  <FLHerne> Sleep is a good idea
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06:46:57  <andythenorth> o/
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06:48:14  <TrueBrain> morning andythenorth
06:48:19  <Wolf01> o/
06:48:25  <andythenorth> LordAro has been busy again :)
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07:02:59  <TrueBrain> with a very tedious task
07:04:10  <andythenorth> it's good to see nml get some care
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07:04:33  <andythenorth> it's a good tool
07:05:43  <Samu> still have the canal pathfinder bugged :(
07:07:02  <Samu> can i build a bridge over another bridge if the another bridge is 2 tiles only?
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07:08:50  <Samu> nop, i can't
07:08:51  <Samu> t.t
07:12:26  <Samu> stupid bridge rules, only complicates the pathfinder :(
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07:15:30  <andythenorth> there are a bunch of nml commit messages that don't fit rules, should I fix them in rebase?
07:15:39  <andythenorth> e.g
07:15:54  <andythenorth> and a few others
07:17:01  <andythenorth> quite a lot actually, it looks messy :)
07:17:54  <Wolf01> Hmmm, should I choose games from the humble choices or just play minecraft rtx?
07:19:43  <Samu> dont waste money on games
07:20:12  <Wolf01> I already paid a year, so...
07:20:13  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: never rewrite public history :)
07:20:15  <TrueBrain> it will break ALL forks
07:20:37  <andythenorth> probably not desirable
07:20:51  <TrueBrain> in a project this size, survivable, but meh
07:21:07  <nielsm> IMO it's fine if the initial (exploratory, I guess you can say) stages of a project are messy and not up to a standard
07:21:11  <andythenorth> does that actually apply if just re-wording the message?
07:21:20  * andythenorth assumed the hash wouldn't change
07:21:29  <nielsm> yes changing the commit message also affects the commit hash
07:21:36  <andythenorth> I don't want to do it, it's just guilt, some of the commits are mine
07:21:47  <nielsm> and that affects the hash of all commits on top of that one
07:21:49  <andythenorth> I've been writing 'Docs: ' not 'Doc: ' for years and I can't stop
07:25:10  <TrueBrain> as it goes: learn from the past, live in the future
07:25:28  <andythenorth> the Future!
07:25:42  <andythenorth> everything is brighter in the future, and we are better people!
07:27:31  <TrueBrain> hmm .. all DNS entries on had their TTL reset to 14400 .. that is odd, and not wanted
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07:28:15  <Wolf01> TB: it's remember yesterday, think about tomorrow, but you have to live today ;)
07:28:37  <TrueBrain> Wolf01: strongly depends on your country of origin ;)
07:28:53  <andythenorth> I don't think England has any of these :P
07:29:28  <Wolf01> TB: or if you listen to hammerfall :P
07:29:40  <TrueBrain> and clearly, I do not :)
07:40:23  <andythenorth> nml changelog: I can use judgement and consolidate some things?
07:40:36  <andythenorth> there are commits to add a feature, then 2 or 3 more commits to fix that feature
07:43:53  <FLHerne> andythenorth: Yes
07:44:35  <andythenorth> it's interesting that the convention (here and elsewhere) is to group by commit message prefix
07:44:48  <andythenorth> it doesn't really aid understanding related changes
07:44:56  <FLHerne> We already have a comprehensive list of commits, it's the commit history :P
07:45:28  <FLHerne> You mean the Add:, Fix: etc?
07:45:30  <andythenorth> ye
07:45:50  <andythenorth> depending who authored two highly related things end up separated
07:45:58  <andythenorth> I kind of wonder who the intended reader is
07:46:05  <andythenorth> it doesn't aid the casual nml user
07:46:13  <andythenorth> nor is it a reliable list of commits
07:46:14  <FLHerne> Changelog should be for users
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07:47:00  <andythenorth> I've begun doing it wrong for Iron Horse
07:47:06  <andythenorth> the correct way makes no sense to me
07:47:19  <FLHerne> Sorting them by prefix means they can ignore the whole "Codechange:" section because they don't care
07:47:36  <FLHerne> (which does raise the question of why those are in the changelog at all)
07:47:44  <FLHerne> Perhaps they shouldn't be
07:47:53  <andythenorth> lots of codechanges are in as 'change'
07:47:54  <andythenorth> or 'add'
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07:48:19  <andythenorth> I'll push a draft in a minute, just feeding the kids
07:48:38  <FLHerne> I like that Horse changelog
07:49:43  <FLHerne> Are Road Hog trucks supposed to have load sprites for metal?
07:49:49  <FLHerne> (did I already ask?)
07:51:44  <andythenorth> maybe
07:51:59  <andythenorth> I'd have to check, my guess is some lengths do and some don't
07:52:10  <andythenorth> I'd like to work on Road Hog and do an NRT edition
07:52:24  <andythenorth> but nml...bananas...etc :P
08:03:43  <TrueBrain> I know that feeling :P
08:04:28  <andythenorth> as long as we're not the old lady swallowing a spider to catch the fly :P
08:04:38  * andythenorth just likes trains 
08:07:22  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] andythenorth opened pull request #104: Doc: draft changelog for 0.5.0 release
08:07:53  <andythenorth> 70 lines or so of changes
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08:28:06  <TrueBrain> downside of making a DNS mistake with as your resolver ... a lot of people will now have your mistake cached for the next hour :P
08:28:08  <TrueBrain> oopsie
08:28:25  <andythenorth> oh dear
08:28:46  <TrueBrain> its fine, they are new entries
08:30:25  * andythenorth wonders about combining retro website style with a new responsive theme
08:34:42  <andythenorth> maybe not now :P
08:48:05  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] kiwitreekor updated pull request #7575: Feature: Add industry production graph
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08:54:47  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] kiwitreekor updated pull request #7575: Feature: Industry production graph
08:55:15  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] LordAro commented on pull request #104: Doc: draft changelog for 0.5.0 release
09:03:39  <andythenorth> ta
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09:14:49  <mcbanhas> Sometimes you get a sense of how much of a dumpster fire the OpenTTD UI can be just by looking at the tooltips. Not even my re-writing below helps much.
09:17:42  <mcbanhas> I'm seriously beginning to consider an alternate formatting to tooltips basd on some more modern standard. Maybe using left alignment instead.
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09:23:05  <nielsm> the entire orders UI is terrible and overloaded
09:23:14  <nielsm> and nobody has dared improve it yet
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09:24:05  <nielsm> the first thing to do IMO would be to scrap the idea of shared orders, and instead change orders into "routes"
09:24:26  <nielsm> so you assign a vehicle to a route, instead of making a route for a vehicle
09:24:29  <Wolf01> +100
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09:27:28  <mcbanhas> Yeah, I  noticed
09:29:04  <mcbanhas> I'm just patching text here. It would be nice to start addressing UI sometime, indeed. It's not good to keep shirking the relevance of presentation and UI.
09:30:05  <mcbanhas> My guess is that UI organization being more of subjective matter, it can spark violent discussion, hence why people avoid it.
09:30:45  <nielsm> yes that
09:31:09  <nielsm> and also people can tend to make all kinds of funky mockups in drawing programs, but it all comes down to implementation
09:31:23  <mcbanhas> On the other hand OpenTTD has been like what, 10 years in development or more? It's not good to keep sweeping this under the rug.
09:31:33  <nielsm> more like 17
09:32:10  <nielsm> and started out with lots of baggage being a straight 1:1 reimplementation of Transport Tycoon Deluxe
09:33:01  <Wolf01> Like when I have to make a site from a jpg... "do you know a little of how html works or I just have to make a clickable jpg?"
09:34:54  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] kiwitreekor updated pull request #8008: Feature: Double-click to rename vehicle
09:35:06  <nielsm>   the original from unmodified TTD, you can easily tell how it's just had features stuffed on top forever and ever
09:35:58  <mcbanhas> Yeah, but that will happen again eventually, if we just keep adding new features without improving the UI.
09:36:31  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] kiwitreekor commented on pull request #8008: Feature: Double-click to rename vehicle
09:37:13  <andythenorth> nobody dares touch orders
09:37:20  <andythenorth> oh you said that already :)
09:37:21  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] kiwitreekor updated pull request #8008: Feature: Double-click to rename vehicle
09:37:53  <Wolf01> We should remove the orders totally and let the game figure them out by itself :>
09:38:07  <nielsm> last year I attempted to change the station window around, because it's also getting badly overloaded:
09:38:13  <andythenorth> you know which XKCD we need
09:38:13  <andythenorth>
09:38:18  <nielsm> had to abort in the end, couldn't make my idea work
09:38:33  <andythenorth> I tried to redesign newgrf configuration window
09:38:39  <andythenorth> and 'new game' window
09:38:41  <andythenorth> both failed
09:39:06  <mcbanhas> You post that comic all the time. I bet you have it bookmarked at this point.
09:39:18  <andythenorth> it's easily found
09:40:35  <andythenorth> (in case meaning is lost in irc format), I think OpenTTD is in a good place, and we can be cheerful about development in last 2 years
09:41:08  <andythenorth> but the UX is a shitshow in places, and unfortunately orders/timetables are the worst place to start trying to fix that
09:41:11  <andythenorth> :D
09:41:26  <andythenorth> imagine walls of rainbows attached to this comment
09:41:52  <mcbanhas> Well, sometimes it can be the other way around in the sense that we can throw it all out of the window.
09:42:52  <andythenorth> we'd probably have to leave the legacy UI in place
09:43:14  <andythenorth> pathfinders all over again :)
09:43:25  <nielsm> OpenTTD 2.0
09:44:18  <mcbanhas> I really don't like maintaining legacy features and groaners. I'd rather move forward and let natural selection do to the rest.
09:44:28  <andythenorth> we have no choice :)
09:44:38  <andythenorth> total 100% commitment to backwards compatibility
09:45:05  <nielsm> there's still people playing old and very old versions of ottd, and that's perfectly fine
09:45:18  <nielsm> if those versions are the game they want to play then by all means play that version
09:45:19  <andythenorth> generally this approach to software makes for a small cohort of happy users, but a terrible user experience
09:45:38  <andythenorth> I suspect there's a scale between ease-of-use and legacy suport
09:45:43  <andythenorth> we choose one end
09:46:10  <mcbanhas> Wait, but how does that relate to OpenTTD gameplay though? It's technically a different client that only fishes out optional graphics right?
09:46:31  <andythenorth> compared to TTD?
09:46:38  <mcbanhas> Yes.
09:46:45  <andythenorth> no idea :)
09:46:58  <andythenorth> I was speaking only about OpenTTD
09:47:29  <andythenorth> I have seen a myth on websites that TTD is somehow holding back OpenTTD development
09:47:49  <andythenorth> this isn't true, OpenTTD development is held back (if at all) by previous OpenTTD development
09:47:50  <mcbanhas> Because if you're talking about Legacy support in those terms it means that somehow the clients can be compatble together via multiplayer or something like that.
09:47:56  <nielsm> I will go and do other things, enjoy the daytime
09:48:00  <andythenorth> bye nielsm :D
09:48:28  <andythenorth> mcbanhas the support is for savegames
09:48:55  <andythenorth> specifically all savegames back to version 0 must work in current OpenTTD
09:49:04  <andythenorth> this means we can never change things like orders
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09:49:22  <andythenorth> change / drop features /s
09:49:46  <michi_cc> andythenorth: Of course we can change it, e.g. to routes, but we'd need to include a load converter that transfers shared orders to routes.
09:50:01  <andythenorth> and timetables, and conditional orders
09:50:39  <andythenorth> and we'd have to preserve a UI that keeps all those affordances mutable
09:51:10  <andythenorth> I'm not trying to prevent progress, I just think this is particularly hard problem :)
09:51:25  <mcbanhas> michi_cc: I smell a lot of errors coming out of such a converter.
09:51:41  <andythenorth> I looked at it before, and thought 'this is easy' we just delete all the broken crap
09:51:48  <andythenorth> but I was of course wrong :)
09:51:53  <mcbanhas> This is really where I'd rather throw TTD save game support out of the window.
09:52:06  <andythenorth> TTD is a red herring
09:52:16  <andythenorth> TTD does not have timetables, conditional orders etc
09:52:32  <andythenorth> they are mistakes in OpenTTD history, if simple order UX was the goal
09:52:43  <andythenorth> or adding more order features that actually work and are useful :)
09:53:02  <mcbanhas> So we can do routes and still keep save game compatbility?
09:53:55  <andythenorth> what do routes do? o_O
09:54:11  <mcbanhas> Not sure either, nielsm proposed that.
09:54:30  <mcbanhas> I mean, "something better that the orders we have now"
09:55:32  <mcbanhas> But what is the major impediment for throwing away all the broken crap?
09:55:56  <andythenorth> 100% savegame compatibility
09:56:01  <andythenorth> and the player base
09:56:35  <mcbanhas> What elements in save game compatbility are in direct conflict?
09:56:40  <andythenorth> also 'broken crap' is a highly subjective comment by me, I withdraw it
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09:56:52  <_dp_> it's not 100$ already
09:56:57  <_dp_> %
09:56:59  <andythenorth> just because I find timetables don't work, doesn't mean they don't work for other people
09:57:28  <mcbanhas> I think that most people do think they're crap though.
09:57:36  <mcbanhas> And that's not a big if.
09:58:06  <andythenorth> _dp_ you're right "We guarantee that every revision of OpenTTD will be able to load savegames from every older revision (excepting where the savegame is corrupt). Please report a bug if you find a save that doesn't load."
09:58:40  <andythenorth> ta
10:00:24  <mcbanhas> I gotta say this is a bit frustrating, given it puts an impediment on a lot of work that I wanted to do.
10:00:50  <andythenorth> well I might be wrong
10:00:51  <mcbanhas> And unfortunately given I'm not a programmer, I'm just stuck on having to rant about it.
10:00:54  <andythenorth> I'm not even a dev
10:01:22  <andythenorth> but OpenTTD is very easy to make progress on in some areas
10:01:39  <andythenorth> and very hostile to progress in others (the actual program, not the community)
10:02:06  <mcbanhas> I noticed. I mean people are doing radical stuff like water depth and whatnot.
10:02:08  <andythenorth> orders and timetables are almost impossible to ever change
10:02:15  <mcbanhas> But the UI is still stuck in the 90s
10:02:34  <andythenorth> there are players who have spent years building detailed recreations of specific railway systems, with realistic timetables
10:02:52  <andythenorth> and there are others using conditional orders to build self-managing networks with thousands of trains
10:03:10  <mcbanhas> Well here's the deal.
10:03:15  <mcbanhas> Fuck them.
10:03:20  <mcbanhas> Start a new one.
10:03:27  <andythenorth> I've proposed that so many times :)
10:03:41  <andythenorth> it just needs a fork
10:04:07  <andythenorth> currently we have one known viable fork - JGRPP
10:04:16  <andythenorth> and maybe a few more for goal servers that I don't know about
10:05:06  <andythenorth> all patchpacks that I've seen have tended to add a lot more complexity, not less
10:05:07  <mcbanhas> The problem is that by sticking to legacy we are inadvertently making the game less accessible to new players.
10:05:24  <mcbanhas> That's bad, because at some point people start losing interest.
10:05:26  <andythenorth> well
10:05:38  <andythenorth> the most vocal part of the player base wants a lot more complexity
10:06:07  <andythenorth> the players who are overwhelmed and quit don't go on forums or reddit asking why development of complicated things is so slow
10:06:44  <andythenorth> also one person's legacy is another person's years of work on a savegame
10:06:55  <andythenorth> we're not Apple :|
10:07:52  <mcbanhas> Curious, how did you try to fix the new game screen?
10:11:59  <_dp_> it's nice to see UI talks but imo the first thing that needs fixing is that horrible bitmap font openttd comes with
10:12:46  <andythenorth> stuff like
10:12:50  <andythenorth> it's not very good
10:13:14  <andythenorth> the issue I was trying to solve is that starting a new game is massive yak shaving
10:13:16  <mcbanhas> _dp_: I was going to work on that after I was done with tooltip text actually
10:13:25  <andythenorth> _dp_ what's wrong with it? :D
10:13:46  <andythenorth> apart from it has curly quote apostrophe in one direction only?
10:13:49  <_dp_> to wide and too small resolution
10:13:58  <TrueBrain>, port 4978, now has the new BaNaNaS ingame content server running :)
10:14:23  <mcbanhas> wide?
10:14:28  <TrueBrain> different port, so you would have to recompile the client to use it :D
10:14:53  <mcbanhas> You'd prefer a narrower font?
10:15:15  <andythenorth> _dp_ is that the OpenGFX font?
10:15:21  <_dp_> well, it's like 150% wider than any other font
10:15:59  <mcbanhas> _dp_: which font are youtalking about exactly? Can you give examples on you'd prefer?
10:16:15  <mcbanhas> I'm saying this because I'm genuinely going to work on fonts after I'm done with tooltips
10:17:25  <mcbanhas> andythenorth: I see the problem there, you tried to put too many potatoes in one bag
10:17:50  <andythenorth> it lacks any flow
10:17:58  <mcbanhas> Personally, I do not mind NewGRF settings being separate.
10:18:28  <andythenorth> I would throw out all newgrf if I could
10:18:49  <mcbanhas> The good thing about the current new game menu is that you just have to throw in a few clicks and presto.
10:19:09  <mcbanhas> This just looks overly engineered.
10:19:51  <andythenorth> it is
10:20:08  <andythenorth> but the number of savegames I've abandoned because of forgetting to change a setting is very high
10:20:34  <andythenorth> I think it's non solvable
10:20:44  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/bananas-server] sentry-io[bot] opened issue #6: TypeError: '<' not supported between instances of 'tuple' and 'list'
10:20:45  <mcbanhas> Not even by printing warnings?
10:21:17  <milek7> current newgrf settings being separate is just weird
10:21:23  <milek7> it is savegame setting, not global one
10:21:58  <mcbanhas> I did some work for OpenXCom, and what they did there in regards to mods, was simply to print a warning when you load a savegame, if you're lacking anything or have different settings than the currently loaded ones.
10:22:48  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/bananas-server] TrueBrain opened pull request #7: Fix #6: fix version-check, and with that content-listing
10:22:53  <TrueBrain> easiest fix yet ^^ :D
10:23:08  <andythenorth> mcbanhas but how do you validate options?
10:23:15  * andythenorth is confused
10:23:35  <andythenorth> starting a game with missing GS for example
10:23:42  <andythenorth> or with 10 AI players configured
10:26:14  <_dp_> fonts:
10:26:36  <andythenorth> that a is so ugly
10:26:44  <andythenorth> in the pixel font
10:27:16  <Samu> 310 ticks, 1 more tick than yesterday
10:27:25  <Samu> honestly, I expected worse
10:27:30  <Samu> this is not bad
10:28:55  <milek7> TrueBrain: there's nothing there to download?
10:29:12  <TrueBrain> see the last issue and PR
10:31:59  <mcbanhas> _dp_: what do you exactly mean with this?
10:32:23  <mcbanhas> You prefer the TrueType dejavu over a pixel font?
10:32:41  <_dp_> mcbanhas, ofc
10:32:48  <_dp_> pixel is pretty much unusable for me
10:32:57  <_dp_> either hard to read or too big
10:34:37  <Samu> oh, hi _dp_ :)
10:34:47  * _dp_ hides
10:34:48  <mcbanhas> We talked about this before, the possibility of including TrueType fonts in the package along with the pixel originals.
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10:35:22  <mcbanhas> The problem with TT fonts is that they do not really match the aesthetic of the windows and menus unless they are somehow stylized
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10:35:54  <mcbanhas> So we would likely need a custom TT font for that, which *might* be possible.
10:36:42  <_dp_> imo that's a non-issue compared to having it almost unplayable
10:36:45  <mcbanhas> I'm going to work on the pixel fonts first, because I actually kind of like them, but I'm gonna try to figure out a TT solution as well.
10:37:14  <Samu> any way to improve this ?
10:37:24  <milek7> pixel fonts are fine, but not on hi-dpi displays
10:37:41  <_dp_> also idk, tt fonts look perfectly fine with aesthetic imo
10:38:21  <mcbanhas> milek7: That always seems to be the problem right? TT fonts on the other hand, make the UI scale in weird ways.
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10:39:52  <Samu> it's using a bitset or bitmask, whatever it's called
10:41:04  <mcbanhas> You can also make a pixel-styled TrueType font. I'm not sure how well would that work though. It would have to be tested.
10:41:38  <mcbanhas> If it were to work well, we could actually drop bitmap font support altogether and just have pixel-styled TTs
10:42:18  <Samu> 1 = axis x, 2 = axis y, 4 = aqueduct ramp (the platform in the air), 8 = aqueduct head (the thing at the start or end of the aqueduct); 4 | 8 = it's not an aqueduct, it's a lock, which occupies both
10:44:09  <Samu> then i check for a conflict in a single tile with another function
10:44:11  <Samu> 	/* Check if both directions can go together on a single tile. */
10:44:11  <Samu> 	return !(existing_direction & new_direction);
10:44:53  <mcbanhas> andythenorth: OXC is a bit more easy, I guess, since it does not have such a thing as GS or AI modules. But if you have a savegame that is produced when mods are loaded, it will print a warning saying there are mods missing if you try to reload the save without them on.
10:45:12  <mcbanhas> Come to think of it, but OpenTTD already does that on the multiplayer lobby.
10:45:37  <mcbanhas> My question is, couldn't something similar be applicable to GS and other settings?
10:45:44  <andythenorth> I don't see how it could ever work
10:45:53  <andythenorth> I think we talk at cross purposes
10:45:54  <_dp_> just use some regular tt font, ui already has hi-dpi icons, tt fonts look perfectly fine along with those
10:46:10  <andythenorth> OpenTTD has no way to know that I didn't *want* 10 AIs in new game
10:46:14  <andythenorth> for example
10:46:19  <mcbanhas> _dp_: I personally think they look very bad.
10:46:24  <andythenorth> but then I have to abandon the game because the AIs have wrecked the map
10:46:47  <mcbanhas> The only game is low rest pixel art, you put a hi-res font on the backdrop and it doesn't match.
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10:46:56  <milek7> mcbanhas: how it's related to ottd? it enables/downloads missing content automatically
10:48:02  <mcbanhas> aaaah you mean in a new game.
10:48:17  <mcbanhas> I thought you meant in a savegame
10:50:04  <mcbanhas> andythenorth: if you want to UI design your way around that there's an easier solution than what you did in your early mockup: step-by-step new game menus, similar to games like Civ or Homm
10:50:43  <mcbanhas> So like, first you select your map settings, press next, then select your opponents, press next, and so on and so forth.
10:51:32  <milek7> certainly worse than tabbed approach
10:51:48  <Samu> _dp_ is busy :)
10:51:54  <mcbanhas> I don't think so, personally.
10:52:31  <mcbanhas> Functionally you can still forget things on the tabbed menu..
10:52:57  <_dp_> well, anyway, openttd looks terrible by default on modern resolutions imo
10:53:11  <milek7> ..that's not game problem, though
10:53:12  <_dp_> you literally have to go and edit cfg to make it playable
10:53:34  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/bananas-server] frosch123 approved pull request #7: Fix #6: fix version-check, and with that content-listing
10:54:47  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/bananas-server] TrueBrain merged pull request #7: Fix #6: fix version-check, and with that content-listing
10:54:49  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/bananas-server] TrueBrain closed issue #6: TypeError: '<' not supported between instances of 'tuple' and 'list'
10:54:56  <TrueBrain> ty frosch123  :)
10:55:13  <frosch123> <- TrueBrain: do you know what that does?
10:55:25  <TrueBrain> I do not; I would have to check it out
10:55:28  <TrueBrain> haven't had the time
10:55:41  <frosch123> ok, i was hoping you would just know it :)
10:55:50  <frosch123> no worries, more important stuff at hand
10:55:54  <TrueBrain> :)
10:56:31  <TrueBrain> like how to call a lambda based on an CloudWatch event ..
10:58:43  <TrueBrain> milek7: try it now
10:59:05  <TrueBrain> at least listing works .. downloading .. not so much :D
10:59:05  <frosch123> andythenorth: who do you consider the target audience for the nml changelog?
10:59:20  <TrueBrain> Access Denied, awwwhh
11:00:36  <frosch123> andythenorth: ah, nevermind, the changelog for the previous versions is as weird :)
11:01:35  <frosch123> maybe that changelog should be deleted
11:01:51  <TrueBrain> so two bugs: 1, the http redirect doesn't work, 2, downloads via the server don't work :P Fixing 2, 1 is more a puzzle ..
11:02:00  <frosch123> or maybe i am the only one who things a changelog is very different from a vcs history
11:02:37  <TrueBrain> okay, downloading works too now at least :D
11:04:01  <TrueBrain> owh, ofc http download doesn't work .. I am fetching that from the production server .. that is not going to work :D
11:05:55  <TrueBrain> but okay, full-chain-testing should now be possible. But I need to finish some automation first :)
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11:12:06  <TrueBrain> milek7: it works for you too now?
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11:12:53  <milek7> not on http
11:13:04  <TrueBrain> that requires some more changes in the client
11:13:14  <TrueBrain> but it should fallback to the TCP connection to download
11:13:22  <milek7> it does
11:13:24  <TrueBrain> so from a user-perspective, it should work
11:13:24  <TrueBrain> good
11:13:33  <milek7> what changes?
11:13:34  <TrueBrain> for the http, you have to change "" to ""
11:13:49  <milek7> ofc i did that
11:13:56  <milek7> dbg: [net] [tcp/http] unhandled status reply 400 Bad Request
11:14:05  <TrueBrain> shrug
11:15:14  <andythenorth> frosch123 very valid question
11:15:17  <Wolf01> There are at least INT_MAX ways to deal with redirects and I didn't find one which is nice, works, doesn't need to change 45 things.
11:15:37  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] andythenorth updated pull request #104: Doc: draft changelog for 0.5.0 release
11:15:48  <andythenorth> surely changelog is for end user?  History is for VCS
11:16:21  <frosch123> that's what i thought. but then 3/4 of that changelog should be deleted
11:16:33  <andythenorth> mcbanhas wizards perform terribly for anyone but the newest users
11:16:36  <andythenorth> they just get in the way
11:16:49  <andythenorth> frosch123 I pushed a consolidated version, glad you agree :)
11:16:55  <andythenorth> still some tidying to do
11:17:23  <andythenorth>
11:18:32  <andythenorth> I wonder if previously we were quite concerned about maintainer audience?
11:18:55  * andythenorth is always scared to break stuff in OpenTTD, so many tentacles
11:20:39  <frosch123> andythenorth: maintainers of distributions are also a valid audience
11:21:01  <andythenorth> so I left in ~all the codechange stuff
11:21:04  <frosch123> but neither of the two audiences is interested in codechanges that neither affect the bundle nor the functionality
11:21:21  <frosch123> .gitignore is not even part of the bundle
11:21:34  <andythenorth> ok removed
11:21:44  <andythenorth> notify irc - local concern?
11:21:54  <frosch123> yep
11:21:58  <andythenorth> release workflow - remove, or single line?
11:22:15  <LordAro> remove
11:22:33  <LordAro> anything that's purely build system related is not relevant
11:23:00  <andythenorth> +1
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11:24:42  <andythenorth> "enable VT100 sequences on windows" ??
11:26:53  <LordAro> that's just coloured text output, right?
11:27:03  <andythenorth> think so
11:27:20  <LordAro> so it should say that :p
11:27:33  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] andythenorth updated pull request #104: Doc: draft changelog for 0.5.0 release
11:27:50  <andythenorth> there's a few others like that
11:28:02  <andythenorth> the commit message is masking the actual benefit
11:28:15  <andythenorth> I've trimmed some
11:28:24  <LordAro> do you now understand the sort of task putting the OTTD changelog together is? :p
11:28:27  <andythenorth> yes
11:28:32  <andythenorth> I write changelogs in other places :P
11:28:39  <andythenorth> but usually I understand the audience
11:28:59  <andythenorth> THANKS FOR DOING THE OTTD CHANGELOG LordAro :D
11:29:12  <LordAro> :p
11:29:33  * andythenorth adopts the weird capitalisation of first word after :
11:29:35  <andythenorth> that's so odd
11:29:39  <andythenorth> it's not a new sentence
11:29:59  <andythenorth> but rest of changelog does it so eh
11:30:06  <peter1138> Hello
11:30:11  <peter1138> Is it lunch time?
11:30:33  <LordAro> always
11:30:44  <peter1138> Excellent!
11:31:46  <andythenorth> it really is
11:33:20  <milek7>
11:36:26  <andythenorth> "To add insult to injury, this isn’t even a dialog… it’s a wizard"
11:37:09  <andythenorth> article is here
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11:45:47  <frosch123> [13:29] *andythenorth adopts the weird capitalisation of first word after : <-  that just means that the previous changelogs were written by germans :)
11:47:29  <andythenorth> I'll go with it :)
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11:59:40  <TrueBrain> milek7: if you receive a 400, it most likely means that your request did end up on the production system; nevertheless, on staging you are being redirect to an https, which won't work for the client .. so I have some things to fix anyway
12:00:55  <milek7> static const char * const NETWORK_CONTENT_MIRROR_HOST           = "";
12:07:33  <mcbanhas> _dp_: can you help me test something?
12:07:56  <_dp_> yes?
12:08:32  <mcbanhas> could you try using this font in your setup and tell me what you think?
12:08:41  <mcbanhas> If you could send me screenshots would be great too
12:09:05  <mcbanhas> I have a small screen so difficult for me to test stuff in higher res
12:09:07  <milek7> TrueBrain: <head><title>400 The plain HTTP request was sent to HTTPS port</title></head>
12:09:14  <_dp_> ok, tho will take a bit to remember how to setup fonts xD
12:09:34  <TrueBrain> milek7: how is that a 400? Lol
12:09:58  <TrueBrain> owh, HTTP/1.0 I guess
12:10:11  <TrueBrain> does OpenTTD implement HTTP/1.0? Wouldn't surprise me
12:10:42  <milek7>
12:10:58  <TrueBrain> yeah, HTTP/1.0
12:10:59  <mcbanhas> Sure, take your time, and thanks in advance :)
12:11:03  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] andythenorth updated pull request #104: Doc: draft changelog for 0.5.0 release
12:11:26  <andythenorth> that's ready for approve or amend ^
12:11:35  <andythenorth> I'm gone as far as I can with it :)
12:11:57  <andythenorth> I'm assuming this blocks release?
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12:15:58  <LordAro> andythenorth: it specifically doesn't block release, not really
12:16:06  <LordAro> it just makes non-releases slightly harder to work with
12:16:17  <LordAro> (though not at all noticably)
12:16:33  <TrueBrain> okay ... the NLB itself is now fully operational; if an EC2 is being scaled up/down, it reconfigures the DNS, and if eht ECS is being scaled up/down, it reconfigures nginx. W00p :D IPv4 + IPv6 NLB, without manual actions (like it was on DigitalOcean :P)
12:16:37  <TrueBrain> now to fix the bugs we have found :D
12:17:12  <Samu> what music is playing starting at 7:45?
12:18:57  <TrueBrain> milek7: give it another spin if you like :)
12:19:21  <milek7> seems to work
12:19:34  <TrueBrain> even the CDN URL seems to be correct \o/
12:21:17  <TrueBrain> frosch123: historican, what was the first release with content service?
12:21:18  <TrueBrain> 0.7?
12:22:36  <TrueBrain> HA! Even 0.7 works :D
12:22:38  <TrueBrain> \o/
12:22:44  <TrueBrain> these things make me happy :P
12:22:53  <frosch123> yes, 0.7 :)
12:23:18  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] glx22 commented on pull request #104: Doc: draft changelog for 0.5.0 release
12:23:35  <frosch123> you compiled 0.7 with staging server?
12:23:35  <TrueBrain> so if 0.7 works, pretty sure all other versions work too :P
12:23:45  <TrueBrain> no; I redirected some things on my local machine
12:23:55  <TrueBrain> I installed an nginx to redirect everything to the right place :P
12:24:01  <TrueBrain> and put my hosts to :D
12:24:02  <frosch123> ok :)
12:24:16  <TrueBrain> wanted to be sure an unmodified binary worked :P (and I am incredibly lazy)
12:24:24  <frosch123> i was surprised you got it so fast, and did not need lord's compile-old-stuff patches
12:24:36  <TrueBrain> I am just that good :P
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12:25:01  <frosch123> anyway, i thought downlaod via http was added later
12:25:07  <frosch123> is that already in 0.7? :o
12:25:08  <TrueBrain> it is
12:25:10  <TrueBrain> no
12:25:26  <TrueBrain> but as far as I know, it was also never changed
12:25:31  <TrueBrain> so if 1.10 works .. pretty sure the others work too :D
12:25:44  <TrueBrain> 0.7 uses an older protocol version, so that was the one I was most worried about
12:25:48  <LordAro> TrueBrain: i'm pretty sure no one would consider you "incredibly lazy" after the effort you've been putting in
12:25:56  <TrueBrain> :D
12:26:00  <TrueBrain> AND IT WORKS
12:26:04  <TrueBrain> pretty happy with it
12:26:19  <frosch123> lazy programmers are the best :) they code exactly to specs, with no extras :)
12:26:23  <TrueBrain> might be good to add: the whole OpenTTD infrastructure uses DNS RoundRobin (with some geo-location, but that is not important)
12:26:26  <TrueBrain> the TTL is 60 seconds
12:26:38  <LordAro> speaking of old compiles, i noticed i have clang 10.0 now
12:26:38  <TrueBrain> so if some infrastructure restarts or what-ever, it can take up to 60 seconds before it works again
12:26:40  * LordAro tests
12:26:57  <TrueBrain> just something to keep in mind when dealing with user-reports
12:27:11  <_dp_> mcbanhas,
12:27:11  <mcbanhas> One question, is it me or OpenTTD does not have anti-aliasing for fonts?
12:27:24  <TrueBrain> (the LoadBalancer should be fairly stable, but you never know ;) )
12:27:41  <milek7> you can enable aa for vector fonts
12:27:43  <TrueBrain> and everything is auto-healing; a big step up from Digital Ocean :P
12:27:44  <_dp_> mcbanhas,  font_size 14
12:27:52  <TrueBrain> so .. bugs .. lets fix bugs ..
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12:28:05  <_dp_> mcbanhas, imo looks better than default but worse then dejavu
12:28:33  <_dp_> idk how it's called properly but imo openttd should use font made for reading, not a fancy one
12:29:21  <milek7> window buttons looks oversized
12:30:06  <_dp_> milek7, if you're talking about my screenshots keep in mind I have 4k 27" (160 dpi)
12:30:36  <glx> x4 gui zoom ?
12:30:49  <_dp_> x2
12:30:56  <TrueBrain> SpComb: it takes 300 CDK lines, 120 + 150 Python Lambda lines of code to write your own NLB :P
12:31:01  <_dp_> ah, nvm, x4)))
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12:31:46  <milek7> I'm wondering whether to buy 4k 24"
12:31:48  <milek7> not sure if this good idea :D
12:32:20  <TrueBrain> I take 2k 27" over 4k 24" any day
12:32:30  <_dp_> I'm having the most trouble with dual monitor mixed dpi setup on linux
12:32:50  <_dp_> and some programs that use gui libs that can't scale
12:33:14  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] LordAro requested changes for pull request #104: Doc: draft changelog for 0.5.0 release
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12:35:36  <mcbanhas> _dp_:  This particular font is the official font Apple used in its OS for many years, and it's somewhat similar to the original TTD font. I was wondering how it would look on a higher resolution and if we should create something similar in TrueType.
12:36:11  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] FLHerne commented on pull request #104: Doc: draft changelog for 0.5.0 release
12:36:11  *** cHawk has joined #openttd
12:36:51  <mcbanhas> I should still contact Zephiris sometime to ask him in which TrueType he based the current bitmap font on.
12:37:12  <glx> mcbanhas: IIRC tahoma is close to the original font
12:37:59  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] LordAro commented on pull request #104: Doc: draft changelog for 0.5.0 release
12:38:46  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] LordAro commented on pull request #104: Doc: draft changelog for 0.5.0 release
12:38:47  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] FLHerne commented on pull request #104: Doc: draft changelog for 0.5.0 release
12:39:09  <mcbanhas> hmm
12:39:56  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] LordAro commented on pull request #104: Doc: draft changelog for 0.5.0 release
12:40:01  <andythenorth> thx
12:40:15  <andythenorth> not sure what GH will do if I accept the suggestions
12:40:20  <andythenorth> we can probably squash that later
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12:40:46  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] andythenorth updated pull request #104: Doc: draft changelog for 0.5.0 release
12:40:47  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] andythenorth updated pull request #104: Doc: draft changelog for 0.5.0 release
12:41:06  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] andythenorth updated pull request #104: Doc: draft changelog for 0.5.0 release
12:41:06  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] andythenorth updated pull request #104: Doc: draft changelog for 0.5.0 release
12:41:46  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] andythenorth updated pull request #104: Doc: draft changelog for 0.5.0 release
12:41:47  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] andythenorth updated pull request #104: Doc: draft changelog for 0.5.0 release
12:42:00  <LordAro> andythenorth: makes a lot of noise here :p
12:42:13  <andythenorth> we should get a dev channel
12:42:16  <TrueBrain> it also seems that 1 push gives 2 lines, which is weird
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12:42:48  <andythenorth> these are good changes, I'll do them after I feed the kids
12:43:09  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] FLHerne commented on pull request #104: Doc: draft changelog for 0.5.0 release
12:44:02  <FLHerne> TrueBrain: They're also all the identical link
12:44:06  <TrueBrain> wow .. DorpsGek received 100+ events in the last 10 minutes :D
12:44:15  <TrueBrain> FLHerne: that is normal, that is what the shortener is doing
12:44:30  <TrueBrain> same long URL results in the same short URL
12:44:35  <FLHerne> Possibly DorpsGek could suppress exactly-duplicate lines
12:44:50  <TrueBrain> nah, andythenorth was really pushing so many updates
12:44:52  <TrueBrain> so that is more than fine
12:45:00  <glx> andythenorth: dev channel exists but rarely useful :)
12:45:11  <andythenorth> I forgot the irony emoji :)
12:46:31  <FLHerne> TrueBrain: He was, but all in one go, hence the comment/update URLs being identical
12:46:49  <TrueBrain> I don't think he did it in one go tbh :P
12:46:53  <FLHerne> We don't really need to be told to go and look at the same link six times :P
12:46:59  <TrueBrain> these were individual push events
12:47:10  <glx> you can commit suggestions in one go with github interface
12:47:12  <TrueBrain> just because something happened once in ... 2 years, doesn't mean we have to act on it ;)
12:47:22  <glx> *can't
12:48:49  <LordAro> it's definitely happened more than once
12:48:51  <LordAro> but not often
12:49:27  <TrueBrain> but with the check_run events GitHub hooks emits, it is impossible to see what GitHub was doing exactly; which is funny to me :)
12:49:38  <TrueBrain> every CI that picks up the phone, is reported to DorpsGek_III  :P
12:49:43  <TrueBrain> (and we have many)
12:50:17  <andythenorth> so after nml and bananas, can we stop doing big things for a bit? :)
12:50:42  <glx> we still have cmake ;)
12:51:18  <andythenorth> funny, I am reading about cmake now :)
12:51:32  <TrueBrain> now that scares the shit out of me
12:51:45  <glx> haha
12:51:54  <andythenorth> unless I badly misunderstand, cmake doesn't need ogfx, nml, newgrf docs, bananas or website updated
12:52:04  <andythenorth> o_O
12:52:40  <glx> it just replaces our custom makefile generator
12:54:14  <andythenorth> hmm, sometime we might want a newgrf translator again
12:54:18  <andythenorth> oof
13:07:00  <TrueBrain> frosch123: I keep hitting issues with your api_call. When the API returns a 401, things don't really recover. redirect() returns a flask response, but this is not returned from api_call (mostly because the caller is not expecting this). Not sure what I can do to fix that
13:07:20  <TrueBrain> a function returning different output depending on a flag are always hard to deal with for me :(
13:10:01  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] LordAro updated pull request #103: Blacken & Flake8 nml
13:16:28  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/bananas-api] TrueBrain opened issue #39: Allow undoing metadata overwrite on version level
13:19:29  <frosch123> TrueBrain: ah, yes, that's one of the differences between bottle
13:19:36  <frosch123> (eints) and flask (bananans)
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13:19:43  <frosch123> in bottle, redirect throws
13:19:52  <TrueBrain> I am a bit surprised flask does not, tbh
13:19:52  <frosch123> so, i always mess that up :)
13:20:07  <mcbanhas_> _dp_: could you try this one:
13:20:07  <TrueBrain> the world becomes a lot simpler if returns throw in these kind of applications :D
13:20:29  <mcbanhas_> I want to see how this one performs in smaller sizes
13:20:47  <mcbanhas_> I don't think it will be fitting for larger ones though
13:21:16  <_dp_> mcbanhas_, yeah, sec, meanwhile one more chigacoflf image side-by-side with dejavu:
13:22:03  <mcbanhas_> thanks
13:22:16  <mcbanhas_> Chicago will not do unfortunately, it is too streamlined
13:28:04  <TrueBrain> frosch123: it is correct that you didn't make the errors pretty on the edit pages?
13:28:43  <frosch123> yes, i just dump the json
13:28:47  <TrueBrain> k
13:29:01  <frosch123> i would need to know more about the structure
13:29:28  <TrueBrain> I hope the structure is pretty self-explaining :D
13:29:29  <frosch123> it looked complicated when i added them
13:29:32  <milek7> _dp_: eww, comparing fonts on jpg screenshots ;D
13:29:41  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/bananas-frontend-web] TrueBrain opened issue #19: Prettify errors returning on edit
13:29:59  <TrueBrain> it is a dict, with the key of the field that failed validation, and the value is (most of the time) a list of errors
13:30:11  <TrueBrain> the only exception are where the values are lists
13:30:19  <TrueBrain> there it shows an extra layer of which element of the list failed
13:30:27  <TrueBrain> {'url': ['Longer than maximum length 95.']}
13:30:28  <TrueBrain> as example
13:30:58  <_dp_> milek7, oops, idk how it become jpg %)
13:31:31  <_dp_> mcbanhas_, cmu font:
13:31:34  <milek7> this is still recompressed jpg ;p
13:31:40  <milek7> imgur started to skimp on storage
13:31:46  <_dp_> size is a bit different but overall looks same as dejavu to me)
13:31:48  <LordAro> imgur always uses jpg, the extension is irrelevant
13:32:06  <_dp_> oh, ffs
13:32:15  <LordAro> imgur has always used a massive amount of compression
13:32:54  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/bananas-frontend-web] TrueBrain opened issue #20: No link to upload new package from the package overview
13:33:56  <mcbanhas_> _dp_: can you send me a pic of the main menu?
13:36:41  <FLHerne> mcbanhas_: What do you mean by 'too streamlined'?
13:37:55  <FLHerne> IMO the Chicago screenshot looks, at first glance, very much like a vector-ised version of the classic pixel font
13:38:26  <FLHerne> With the very rectangular letter shapes, and unusual weights
13:38:37  <mcbanhas_> There are plenty of differences though
13:38:38  <FLHerne> None of the others are even remotely similar
13:38:44  <mcbanhas_> the capitals are much narrower
13:39:09  <FLHerne> True, but I'm not convinced that's really important
13:39:16  <mcbanhas_> The edges also feel a bit too sharp
13:39:23  <FLHerne> It's always going to look different in detail, or there's no point :P
13:40:33  <FLHerne> Chicago fits in with the angular pixel-based UI and preserves the general feel of how it looked before
13:41:07  <FLHerne> Short of drawing a custom vector font based on the OpenGFX one, I'd be surprised if you can improve on it much
13:41:20  <mcbanhas_> Yeah that's what I thought, but I'm not completely satisfied with it yet
13:41:59  <Samu> yay 224 ticks, another breakthrough
13:42:10  <Samu> but this one costs cpu
13:42:16  <Samu> game becomes sluggish
13:42:39  <Samu> @calc 224/310
13:42:39  <DorpsGek> Samu: 0.722580645161
13:42:57  <mcbanhas_> _dp_: your last screenshot is weird though, you sure you got the right font? It seems much bolder than the one in the link I sent.
13:43:26  <mcbanhas_> Does OpenTTD sets TrueType fonts in bold by default or something like that?
13:44:28  <glx> no
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13:47:15  <andythenorth> loads of spam incoming
13:47:19  <andythenorth> I'd leave the channel TBH :P
13:47:40  <frosch123> i'll go for walk then :)
13:47:47  <_dp_> mcbanhas_, you linked the bold font, no?
13:47:52  <_dp_> I don't even see a regular version
13:48:01  <glx> andythenorth: replying to code comments ?
13:48:15  <_dp_> png:
13:48:36  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] andythenorth commented on pull request #104: Doc: draft changelog for 0.5.0 release
13:48:46  <andythenorth> glx yup
13:49:00  <glx> andythenorth: you can reply to all doing a review ;)
13:49:03  <andythenorth> I get highlighted by each one, which means my irc icon bounces :P
13:49:06  <mcbanhas_> CMU is on the right?
13:49:07  <_dp_> openttd does shadow though
13:49:20  <_dp_> wonder if does it even for black font
13:51:10  <TrueBrain> frosch123: do dependencies work in the frontend? When I type something, I get no error and nothing happens? (just checking :D)
13:51:59  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] FLHerne commented on pull request #104: Doc: draft changelog for 0.5.0 release
13:52:49  <_dp_> guess not: draw_shadow = fc->GetDrawGlyphShadow() && (colour & TC_NO_SHADE) == 0 && colour != TC_BLACK
13:52:58  <frosch123> TrueBrain: yes, you are supposed to copy&paste the contentid from the dep site
13:53:07  <TrueBrain> but no error when you did it wrong?
13:53:17  <frosch123> iirc there is an error, but only once
13:53:24  <FLHerne> TrueBrain: Apropos of nothing, kudos on the Github move and all the tooling you've set up
13:53:30  <TrueBrain> haven't seen it once, and I tried adding a bunch of shit :P
13:53:36  <frosch123> it will clear the invalid entries on first submit
13:53:36  <TrueBrain> FLHerne: cheers :)
13:53:44  <frosch123> well, who knows, maybe it got broken
13:53:45  <TrueBrain> frosch123: I am editing
13:53:55  <FLHerne> The whole OpenTTD-and-related development process is so much nicer now
13:53:55  <TrueBrain> k, will make an issue; not that important atm :D
13:54:13  <TrueBrain> that was the goal; happy it is delivering :D
13:54:47  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/bananas-frontend-web] TrueBrain opened issue #21: During editing, wrong dependencies don't result in an error
13:56:10  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] andythenorth commented on pull request #104: Doc: draft changelog for 0.5.0 release
13:56:54  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/bananas-api] TrueBrain commented on issue #35: /package/<content-type>/<unique-id>/<upload-date> gives 500 for unknown unique-id/upload-date
13:57:32  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] andythenorth updated pull request #104: Doc: draft changelog for 0.5.0 release
13:58:10  <_dp_> mcbanhas_, main menu:
13:58:21  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/bananas-api] TrueBrain commented on issue #35: /package/<content-type>/<unique-id>/<upload-date> gives 500 for unknown unique-id/upload-date
13:58:54  <andythenorth> 'Added Visual Studio Editor Script' is syntax highlighting support?
13:59:43  <mcbanhas_> CMU on the right I suppose? Something seems off, the Y shape and other letters dont seem to match
13:59:58  <_dp_> yeah, should be on the right
14:00:35  <glx> andythenorth: yes
14:00:36  <mcbanhas_> that's weird, bc i looks more like the one on the left
14:00:41  <andythenorth> ta
14:01:15  <andythenorth> LordAro wrt to removing all codechanges, are any relevant to maintainers?  Otherwise I remove...
14:01:21  <andythenorth> nearly done here
14:02:10  <_dp_> mcbanhas_, yaeh, looks wrong, I'll check
14:03:01  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/bananas-api] TrueBrain opened pull request #40: Fixing lots of issues
14:03:03  <mcbanhas_> Yeah I think you're loading Arial or liberation serif on the right
14:03:05  <TrueBrain> there we go, first bunch of fixes :)
14:03:45  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/bananas-api] TrueBrain updated pull request #40: Fixing lots of issues
14:03:48  <TrueBrain> and the mandatory: run fucking black before push ..
14:05:35  <TrueBrain> completely murdered the regression-set :D Haha :D
14:06:08  * andythenorth hopes for nml release today :D
14:06:12  <andythenorth> was there a deadline?
14:06:30  <TrueBrain> personal sanity is also a deadline
14:07:51  <andythenorth> I have many amusing other things to do :)
14:07:55  <andythenorth> dunno about the rest of you
14:08:32  <andythenorth> including cleaning the house :P
14:08:34  <andythenorth> oof
14:09:08  <Samu> 283 ticks, it's less than 310, but much more than 224
14:12:03  <_dp_> dbg: [freetype] Font "/usr/share/fonts/truetype/liberation/LiberationSerif-Regular.ttf" misses no glyphs
14:12:10  <_dp_> what's that supposed to mean?
14:12:14  <_dp_> seems to be an error
14:12:53  <TrueBrain> you should always miss glyphs :P
14:13:23  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/bananas-api] TrueBrain updated pull request #40: Fixing lots of issues
14:15:52  <LordAro> fontdetection.cpp:627
14:15:55  <LordAro> just a debug message :p
14:16:32  <TrueBrain> frosch123: hihi, you can add a dependency to yourself :D That is funny :)
14:17:34  <glx> can lead to interesting failure
14:17:55  <_dp_> it's weird, if I use 'CMU Sans Serif, Bold' it does
14:18:26  <_dp_> but for 'CMU Sans Serif Bold' it does Unable to use 'CMU Sans Serif Bold' for medium font, FreeType reported error 0x1, using sprite font instead
14:19:38  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/bananas-frontend-web] TrueBrain opened pull request #22: Fix #21: invalid dependencies weren't shown to the user
14:19:48  <TrueBrain> frosch123: I think I found the typo why I didn't see any error ^^ :D
14:22:04  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/bananas-api] TrueBrain opened issue #41: Putting yourself as dependency is valid
14:23:03  <TrueBrain> right; so main task left for me is to make sure the API and Server reload the GitHub content when there is a change on GitHub. Shouldn't be too hard :)
14:24:42  <Samu> 310 ticks 2.56 MB low frame time, 283 ticks 21.00 MB low frame time, 224 ticks 3.21 MB very high frame time
14:25:01  <Samu> 3 ways to do the same thing, I have to decide which one to keep
14:26:09  <_dp_> ok, idk what's wrong with cmu font but openttd doesn't want to use it at all
14:26:57  <_dp_> and somehow reports no apparent error
14:29:17  <Samu> 224 ticks is so desirable
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14:37:06  <Eddi|zuHause> there's a possibility openttd tests for certain glyphs being available, and silently rejects the configured font
14:37:32  <Eddi|zuHause> i've never looked at how that actually works
14:46:19  <_dp_> interesting, I can use cmu font for small or large but not for medium
14:46:28  <_dp_> mono fonts seems to somehow fuck it up
14:48:13  <TrueBrain> thar, fixed the 10-or-so people who had invalid URLs in on their content :)
14:48:23  <TrueBrain> really surprised only 10-or-so had them wrong :P
14:48:30  <Samu> with PR #8091, it can go as low as 184 ticks!
14:48:57  <Samu> something that some days ago took 403 ticks, can go as low as 184 ticks
14:51:26  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] LordAro commented on pull request #104: Doc: draft changelog for 0.5.0 release
14:55:30  <_dp_> ok it fails because of missing glyphs but CheckForMissingGlyphs definitely misses error report
14:57:27  <Eddi|zuHause> _dp_ so when can we expect your PR? :p
14:57:59  <_dp_> mb...
14:58:53  <_dp_> I still don't quite understand tf is going on with font loadding xD
15:22:27  <_dp_> I give up, this shit is too broken :p
15:22:40  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/bananas-api] frosch123 approved pull request #40: Fixing lots of issues
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15:25:06  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/bananas-frontend-web] frosch123 approved pull request #22: Fix #21: invalid dependencies weren't shown to the user
15:25:16  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/bananas-frontend-web] frosch123 merged pull request #22: Fix #21: invalid dependencies weren't shown to the user
15:25:17  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/bananas-frontend-web] frosch123 closed issue #21: During editing, wrong dependencies don't result in an error
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15:25:46  <_dp_> whole glyph check and fallback logic makes no sense, should be rewritten from scratch imo
15:26:33  <Eddi|zuHause> _dp_ so when can we expect your PR? :p
15:26:38  <frosch123> _dp_: did you already encounter the deadlock crash?
15:27:00  <_dp_> frosch123, lol what, it can do that too?
15:27:19  <frosch123> if you start ottd with no baseset, it will auto-pick a font to display the download window. if loading that font fails, it will fall-back to the sprite font
15:28:13  <_dp_> oh, nice xD
15:28:23  <_dp_> didn't encounter that but I'm not surprised
15:29:00  <_dp_> I just found out that it seemingly can miss glyphs in one font but reset everything but that font
15:32:41  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 updated pull request #7270: Introduce CMake (and removing all other project-related code)
15:34:54  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/bananas-frontend-web] frosch123 opened issue #23: Map enums from API to nice looking user-readable values.
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15:38:34  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/bananas-frontend-web] frosch123 opened issue #24: Handle multiple requests in parallel
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15:53:30  <mcbanhas> _dp_, I believe the font has a problem
15:53:50  <mcbanhas> It aint working on my system for some reason, even if I try to load it on Libreoffice
15:54:09  <mcbanhas> So it's likely not an issue with OpenTTD
16:18:10  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/bananas-api] TrueBrain merged pull request #40: Fixing lots of issues
16:18:21  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/bananas-api] TrueBrain closed issue #20: GitHub commit message can have duplicated entries
16:18:25  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/bananas-api] TrueBrain closed issue #19: GitHub commits can be empty
16:18:27  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/bananas-api] TrueBrain closed issue #37: Increase upload-token expiration time
16:18:31  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/bananas-api] TrueBrain closed issue #39: Allow undoing metadata overwrite on version level
16:18:33  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/bananas-api] TrueBrain closed issue #35: /package/<content-type>/<unique-id>/<upload-date> gives 500 for unknown unique-id/upload-date
16:18:37  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/bananas-api] TrueBrain closed issue #38: Validate URL to be an URL
16:18:49  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/bananas-api] TrueBrain closed issue #34: /package/<content-type>/<unique-id> gives 200 for unknown unique-id
16:18:53  <frosch123> two clicks, so much spam :)
16:18:57  <LordAro> TrueBrain: are you trying to get DorpsGek_III kicked for spam? :p
16:18:58  <TrueBrain> :D
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16:19:05  <TrueBrain> it was just an efficient PR :)
16:20:24  <TrueBrain> we seem to be weeding out most of the annoying bugs :D
16:21:31  <TrueBrain> some automation is still missing, OpenTTD login-flow, and CSS of course, but .. otherwise .. it seems .. this is at least equal in quality to the current BaNaNaS :P
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16:33:49  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] andythenorth updated pull request #104: Doc: draft changelog for 0.5.0 release
16:34:53  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] andythenorth updated pull request #104: Doc: draft changelog for 0.5.0 release
16:34:54  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] andythenorth updated pull request #104: Doc: draft changelog for 0.5.0 release
16:35:13  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] andythenorth updated pull request #104: Doc: draft changelog for 0.5.0 release
16:35:13  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] andythenorth updated pull request #104: Doc: draft changelog for 0.5.0 release
16:35:30  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] andythenorth updated pull request #104: Doc: draft changelog for 0.5.0 release
16:35:30  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] andythenorth updated pull request #104: Doc: draft changelog for 0.5.0 release
16:37:27  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] andythenorth updated pull request #104: Doc: draft changelog for 0.5.0 release
16:38:47  <andythenorth> LordAro done I think, I squashed all the GH commits and dropped 'draft' from commit message
16:39:05  <TrueBrain> you are such a spammert
16:40:09  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: that one change in the middle of features is triggering me
16:40:22  <andythenorth> it's wrong eh
16:40:30  <andythenorth> this whole approach is weird tbh
16:40:36  <andythenorth> but who am I to argue
16:40:44  <TrueBrain> the one writing it? :P
16:40:53  <andythenorth> it should be grouped into concerns of the author
16:41:04  <andythenorth> (newgrf author)
16:41:33  <TrueBrain> you can spend hours and hours on the changelog; not sure it is worth your time :)
16:42:01  <andythenorth> I will keep going until someone approves :P
16:42:13  <frosch123> +    <tr class="{{ loop.cycle('odd', 'even') }}"> <- magic :o
16:42:17  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] DerDakon commented on pull request #7270: Introduce CMake (and removing all other project-related code)
16:42:30  <andythenorth> frosch123 that's not magic, that's good magic
16:44:12  <TrueBrain> it generally is :)
16:44:22  <TrueBrain> so, hmm .. OpenTTD logins .. hmm ..
16:45:23  <TrueBrain> I wanted to piggyback on the existing Django, but .. I hope we can disable that in a few weeks or so ..
16:45:37  <TrueBrain> so ... export username + sha from LDAP and store it somewhere safe?
16:45:59  <dwfreed> or just auth against ldap?
16:46:08  <andythenorth> hmm, seems I can approve my own PR in nml
16:46:12  <andythenorth> expected?
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16:46:28  <TrueBrain> it is not possible to reach the LDAP from outside the old infrastructure; and I don't want to depend on the old infra :)
16:46:47  <dwfreed> migrate the ldap?
16:47:11  <TrueBrain> that is what I say: export username + sha and store somewhere safe :)
16:47:31  <TrueBrain> (sha = hashed password, to be clear)
16:47:38  <dwfreed> yeah, I figured
16:47:57  <dwfreed> I mean literally just run an ldap server in the new infra
16:48:24  <TrueBrain> LDAP is a bitch to configure; and if it is only for allowing deprecated account access, I don't see the point
16:48:32  <TrueBrain> I want to move forward, basically ;)
16:49:06  <TrueBrain> I want that people can go <somewhere>, proof they are owner of OpenTTD account, and "link" it to their GitHub
16:49:17  <TrueBrain> most likely just changing the author of all BaNaNaS entries to their GitHub account
16:49:24  <TrueBrain> after that, it can forget about the OpenTTD account ever existing
16:49:30  <dwfreed> then yeah, just shove it in a table in the database
16:49:38  <TrueBrain> there is no database atm
16:49:54  <dwfreed> make a sqlite one, then :)
16:50:21  <TrueBrain> there is no persistent storage attached to any pod :)
16:50:22  <LordAro> TrueBrain: thoughts on what to do with the wiki?
16:50:42  <TrueBrain> LordAro: not 100% sure, but my suggestion would be to make authentication via GitHub there too
16:50:51  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/bananas-frontend-web] frosch123 opened pull request #25: Change: Apply the style from the website.
16:50:53  <TrueBrain> good thing is, that we don't really have to migrate accounts for wiki, as .. it is a wiki :P
16:50:57  <dwfreed> so add some? or use the managed DB, though that's probably significantly more expensive
16:51:08  <frosch123> andythenorth: another chance to approve your own stuff :)
16:51:32  <TrueBrain> dwfreed: I am happy you consider it all this easy, but this requires a bit more thought first :) Just attaching stateful disk to a pod is not easy, but also a bitch to maintain
16:51:47  <TrueBrain> I rather find a solution that is elegant, maintaince free, and easy to understand :)
16:52:32  <TrueBrain> not overly happy we are serving static files via flask, but .. what can you do :D This does need a solution .. just not now :P
16:53:15  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/bananas-frontend-web] TrueBrain approved pull request #25: Change: Apply the style from the website.
16:53:46  <TrueBrain> I guess it is not okay to email everyone a "code" :D
16:53:56  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/bananas-frontend-web] frosch123 merged pull request #25: Change: Apply the style from the website.
16:54:29  <TrueBrain> so eints will go via GitHub, needs no migration. wiki via GitHub, no migration. Only BaNaNaS is the annoying one ..
16:54:41  <TrueBrain> nothing else needs authentication I think
16:54:58  <frosch123> TrueBrain: we can avoid storing the pw. if we have the email, people could enter their email somehwere, then then they get an email with a take-over link
16:54:59  <LordAro> wiki *could* have migration
16:55:05  <LordAro> if you tried hard enough
16:55:18  <TrueBrain> LordAro: you can do a lot of things. But there is no point, is there?
16:55:31  <TrueBrain> frosch123: I rather store hashed passwords than plain-text emailaddresses :)
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16:56:19  <TrueBrain> LordAro: is an honest question btw; there is no point, is there?
16:56:26  <frosch123> people forget their pw all the time. emails allow manual verification
16:56:31  <TrueBrain> we have no pages restricted to a certain user or something, right?
16:56:44  <TrueBrain> frosch123: pretty sure we have more people that no longer have a valid email on file
16:56:47  <LordAro> TrueBrain: i guess not, other than losing user pages & history
16:56:56  <TrueBrain> you don't lose history at all
16:57:05  <LordAro> properly linked history*
16:57:12  <TrueBrain> nothing changes in the history
16:57:15  <TrueBrain> not sure why you would think that
16:57:20  <TrueBrain> it is not that we remove the usernames that are in there
16:57:24  <LordAro> i know that
16:57:36  <LordAro> i mean that github users do not get their changes linked with their old accounts
16:57:39  <LordAro> (necessarily)
16:57:56  <TrueBrain> ah, yes, they do not. But .. given the amount of changes on our wiki, pretty sure nobody gives a flying rat about that :P
16:58:27  <LordAro> probably not, no
16:58:39  <TrueBrain> frosch123: as you currently cannot change your email nor your password, I have noticed more people have an invalid email than those that forgot their password :P
16:58:40  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/bananas-frontend-web] frosch123 opened issue #26: Instrument edit/upload forms with labels
16:59:18  <TrueBrain> but okay, I guess the cleanest solution for both wiki and BaNaNaS would be to make a small pod that acts as an OAuth provider, based on the old credentials
17:00:01  <frosch123> we can now have private repos, right?
17:00:06  <TrueBrain> yes, we can
17:01:21  <frosch123> andythenorth: \o/
17:01:27  <TrueBrain> for BaNaNaS we can always fix it for users if they ask, I mean .. we can commit in the repo
17:01:29  <andythenorth> hurrah
17:01:37  <TrueBrain> nice job guys; seriously, nice job :)
17:01:50  <frosch123> i'll do some fixes to the header now
17:01:54  <andythenorth> you didn't look in the html or css :D  but thanks TrueBrain
17:01:56  <frosch123> like actually make the highlight work and stuff
17:02:00  <TrueBrain> being logged in breaks :P
17:02:06  <frosch123> yep :)
17:02:07  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: I skimmed it
17:02:14  <andythenorth> the header needs reworked
17:02:40  <andythenorth> the html and css are
17:02:48  <frosch123> <- would you approve that? or shall it trash it?
17:03:09  <TrueBrain> It is better than what it is now :P
17:03:20  <andythenorth> actually this is a better image :P
17:03:41  <andythenorth> frosch123 I'd split manager, logout, home, and username onto a row first
17:03:45  <andythenorth> and see how that helps
17:04:04  <andythenorth> then I'd ask questions about libraries and end users
17:04:28  <frosch123> andythenorth: no idea what you mean, but we have a restriction here: we want to make the index pages cacheable, so they should not look different when logged in
17:04:53  <andythenorth> edge side includes :P
17:04:58  <andythenorth> yes ok, that's reasonable
17:05:24  <_dp_> can someone rewrite openttd in rust pls? c++ too broken %)
17:05:26  <andythenorth> but they won't always show username?
17:05:38  <TrueBrain> maybe give Manager a whole different header
17:05:46  <TrueBrain> so it is also more clear you are in the manager part
17:05:52  <andythenorth> I'd consider moving it right up above everything else
17:05:55  <andythenorth> global navbar
17:06:08  <andythenorth> then you really could do something like ESI trivially and varnish the rest
17:06:12  * andythenorth says words
17:06:17  <TrueBrain> anyway, I got out of the UI/UX industry, kinda want to stay out :P
17:06:20  <TrueBrain> so LALALALAA :D
17:06:25  <FLHerne> Is the navbar expected to be like ?
17:06:36  <andythenorth> I seem to sadly be in the security industry somehow TrueBrain :(
17:06:43  <FLHerne> Or is it just my browser that's silly?
17:06:49  <TrueBrain> it is a nice industry andythenorth  :) Lot of stupid people :P
17:06:50  <andythenorth> FLHerne that's lolz
17:07:00  <frosch123> FLHerne: no, for me "manager" is in a new row :p
17:07:04  <FLHerne> (I did clear the cache)
17:07:34  <mcbanhas> Guys is it possible to make a tooltip window not show up at all? There's a couple of redundant tooltips I wanted to remove altogether, but if I just clear the string in the language file, it still shows a small empty tooltip window.
17:07:36  <frosch123> (yes, nav header is broken)
17:07:44  <FLHerne> Ok
17:09:06  <frosch123> he, why did gh attribute the commit to me. i spend so much work looking up --author
17:09:35  <TrueBrain> :(
17:09:44  <TrueBrain> you squashed it?
17:09:50  <frosch123> yes
17:09:57  <TrueBrain> that is the mistake :D
17:10:12  <TrueBrain> squashing means GitHub is recommiting the commit, and it does that as your user
17:10:30  <frosch123> huh, i always squash to add the PR to the commit message
17:10:38  <TrueBrain> it is a good thing to do
17:10:43  <TrueBrain> just .. not if you want another author :P
17:10:55  <TrueBrain> on the plus side, your commit is now "Verified"
17:11:20  <andythenorth> frosch123 where should I base branches from / push to now?
17:11:22  <frosch123> whatever that means :)
17:11:40  <frosch123> andythenorth: what do you want to do?
17:11:49  <andythenorth> help sort out the nav
17:11:57  <andythenorth> can't do it right now, much chores
17:12:10  <andythenorth> but I might get to it later, if no-one else does
17:12:10  <frosch123> ok, enjoy some free hours, until i fix some stuff there :)
17:12:30  <andythenorth> if $someone could put form labels around all the form inputs, with ids
17:12:34  <andythenorth> that would be very good
17:13:07  <FLHerne> What browser support does the CSS care about?
17:13:39  <andythenorth> there's no written policy
17:13:55  <andythenorth> I would think IE 11, and the evergreen versions of the others
17:14:03  <LordAro> "anything newer than IE11"
17:14:12  <LordAro> iirc IE11 doesn't work well with the website
17:15:09  <LordAro> frosch123: TrueBrain: "verified" means that your commit was GPG signed, which website commits can do automatically
17:15:28  <LordAro> PGP? GPG? i can never remember which is which
17:16:13  <TrueBrain> and what does it mean, I mean .. GitHub did it for you .. on GitHub .. so .. what does signing mean there? That it was done by GitHub?
17:16:18  <andythenorth> apart from "Firefox can't size inputs sensibly" I haven't written browser specific CSS for years
17:16:22  <TrueBrain> what value does it add? :P
17:16:28  <andythenorth> but I usually start from a very different place :P
17:16:28  <Eddi|zuHause> LordAro: i never bothered learning whether there is even a difference between these two
17:16:34  <LordAro> TrueBrain: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
17:20:28  <mcbanhas> Anyone could help me with my question above?
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17:22:38  <mcbanhas> hmm
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17:23:22  <andythenorth> are we supporting non-desktop browsers? o_O
17:23:35  <_dp_> mcbanhas, my guess is that removing tooltips is only possible by patching the code but idk rly
17:24:08  <mcbanhas> Aww man
17:24:13  <mcbanhas> That's annoying.
17:25:28  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 updated pull request #7270: Introduce CMake (and removing all other project-related code)
17:25:44  <_dp_> mcbanhas, btw, are you sure those tooltips are redundant in all languages?
17:26:04  <mcbanhas> Almost sure yeah
17:26:31  <mcbanhas> It's the tooltips for "Start/stop replacing engine" buttons.
17:26:49  <mcbanhas> The tooltip says the same thing by different words.
17:29:00  <_dp_> probably there is also something to be said about ui consistency
17:29:19  <_dp_> if one button has tooltip an other doesn't it may seem to be broken
17:35:34  <mcbanhas> Yeah maybe.
17:46:06  <FLHerne> andythenorth: Hrm, I think "Industries: support 16 cargos in / 16 cargos out" in the changelog isn't enough info
17:46:35  <FLHerne> That includes completely removing (not even deprecating) waiting_cargo_1/2
17:46:59  <FLHerne> And a bunch of other industry stuff I don't understand :P
17:47:52  <FLHerne> Anyone compiling an industry-related grf with nml 0.5 will find it breaks in a number of ways, and "support 16 cargos in" doesn't really cover that
17:48:31  <FLHerne> or tell them what needs to be done
17:48:52  <glx> I think it's known
17:49:10  <glx> 0.5 is incompatible with 0.4.5
17:49:41  <glx> and it's documented on the wiki IIRC
17:50:36  <FLHerne> Ok, then the changelog should say that, and where to find the documentation
17:53:44  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] FLHerne commented on pull request #104: Doc: draft changelog for 0.5.0 release
17:58:06  <andythenorth> FLHerne can you
17:58:08  <andythenorth> oh nvm
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17:58:34  <andythenorth> FLHerne if this was my project I'd write a section about 16 cargo industry support
17:58:42  <andythenorth> and I'd attach houses to the end of that as a line
17:58:49  <andythenorth> and I'd write a section about NRT
17:58:54  <andythenorth> and a section about railtypes changes
17:59:03  <andythenorth> and then lump everything else together
17:59:07  * andythenorth back to chores
18:00:23  <FLHerne> andythenorth: can I?
18:00:48  <FLHerne> <can I what?>
18:01:04  <FLHerne> That sounds like a sane way to do it
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18:10:16  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] nielsmh commented on pull request #104: Doc: Changelog for 0.5.0 release
18:18:35  <andythenorth> FLHerne I was going to say can you comment on the PR, but then you did
18:18:49  <andythenorth> can you rearrange it into sections though? o_O
18:18:56  <FLHerne> I could make up another comment :P
18:19:10  <andythenorth> I write newgrf changelogs so that I don't have to also write release notes
18:19:16  <FLHerne> This is the first release on GitHub, isn't it?
18:19:47  <FLHerne> Might as well start a better tradition
18:20:39  <andythenorth> +1
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18:47:01  <frosch123> meh, i have an import recursion between helpers and session :/
18:47:55  <TrueBrain> means you should split it over more files :)
18:49:17  <TrueBrain> okay, this is tricky .. when the API commits to GitHub, GitHub does a callback to reload the index (as it has changed)
18:49:22  <TrueBrain> not sure that is wanted
18:50:04  <TrueBrain> guess the GitHub Action could check if Librarian has made the commit, and not give the callback
18:50:06  <TrueBrain> hmm, that would work
18:51:36  <TrueBrain> lol; because of a recent change I made, it also forgets in that case all pending changes :D
18:51:40  <TrueBrain> that sounds sub-optimal
18:52:44  <frosch123> it also sounds lucky that you found it :)
18:52:48  <TrueBrain> chances are very very slim, ofc, but not zero :P
18:53:01  <TrueBrain> okay, I need to rework this a bit
18:53:09  <TrueBrain> that sounds like a job for tomorrow :P
18:53:16  <TrueBrain> still not sure how to do the OpenTTD login stuff
18:53:39  <frosch123> can we handle it similar to the translator applciation?
18:54:01  <TrueBrain> how do you mean?
18:56:20  <frosch123> hmm, i guess i misremembered how that worked :)
18:56:46  <TrueBrain> too bad; would love to hear ideas, as mine are running a bit thin :D
18:57:08  <frosch123> anyway, main question is: rely on pw, email or offer both?
18:57:27  <TrueBrain> I guess "both"
18:58:02  <frosch123> store either or both in a private repo
18:58:16  <TrueBrain> what I would like: you login under OpenTTD account, you are asked to make a GitHub account, we move accounts over, and we remove the OpenTTD account
18:59:35  <TrueBrain> I guess my main question is: how long are we going to support old accounts?
18:59:39  <frosch123> add an api call to add a certain <authmethod2>-id to all packages with some <authmethod1>-id
18:59:56  <TrueBrain> migration of the old old OpenTTD system started in .. 2009? And I know at least 1 account migrated in 2017 :P
19:00:01  <frosch123> it's actually similar to adding more authors
19:00:13  <frosch123> just that they are assigned to the same display-name
19:00:24  <TrueBrain> the API can already handle it, yes
19:00:42  <TrueBrain> not the rewrite, but yeah, that is easy
19:01:22  <TrueBrain> ideal, we don't add OpenTTD code to the API. Keep it clean, etc
19:01:33  <TrueBrain> so when we migrate someone, we commit in the BaNaNaS repo, the API sees the new commit, reloads
19:02:55  <TrueBrain> guess it does require us knowing a bit what we want with the wiki
19:02:58  <TrueBrain> there are several user pages
19:03:08  <frosch123> i wanted to use the api for "add-user"
19:03:34  <TrueBrain> what would "add-user" do?
19:03:44  <TrueBrain> or do you mean "add author", to add another author to your package?
19:05:13  <frosch123> hmm, i guess 1) write some oauth-provider with the old logins 2) allow login to the frontend/api with openttd account 3) add a method to add github user xyz to all my packages (or one package at a time may be enough)
19:05:38  <TrueBrain> my issue with that flow is that it is kinda optional to move away from the OpenTTD account
19:05:43  <TrueBrain> I want to promote that a bit .. stronger :)
19:05:51  <TrueBrain> (as you cannot change password or email on OpenTTD)
19:07:00  <frosch123> ok, so another github app, where you login with github, and then enter your old credentials
19:07:20  <TrueBrain> yeah, a "link your OpenTTD account" app
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19:07:58  <TrueBrain> but it would be weird if someone has to do this now for BaNaNaS, and later for wiki
19:08:04  <TrueBrain> I guess
19:08:06  <TrueBrain> hmm, maybe not
19:08:09  <frosch123> can we send verification emails? or would the sender appear invalid and get fitlered out somewhere?
19:08:38  <frosch123> TrueBrain: i checked the oauth-plugin for wiki 2 (?) years ago
19:08:49  <TrueBrain> most emails we have on file are no longer valid, so I am not a fan of adding verification emails here .. that would give me a lot of work :P
19:08:50  <frosch123> usernames are just stored as display-name
19:09:00  <frosch123> there are no user-ids or something
19:09:12  <TrueBrain> so how do we avoid people "claiming" someone else's username?
19:09:31  <TrueBrain> say your name is now A, and there is no GitHub account A yet .. someone else can claim your name
19:09:37  <frosch123> most people also have forum accounts
19:09:37  <TrueBrain> (and take over your user-page)
19:10:04  <frosch123> for the wiki? i would just not bother
19:10:22  <frosch123> i am not going to migrate frosch to frosch123
19:10:22  <TrueBrain> that is what I am on the fence about .. those darn user pages
19:10:44  <TrueBrain> so how bad is it if another person can take control over your wiki "identity", basically
19:10:51  <TrueBrain> in terms of edits, don't care
19:10:56  <TrueBrain> but those few userpages, can be a bit nasty
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19:11:09  <frosch123> it would take a long time for people to notice if you made the wiki read-only
19:11:19  <TrueBrain> this is true :P
19:11:52  <Samu> question, why is that AddList is so slow
19:12:07  <Samu> i mean, i'm adding a list to an empty list
19:12:16  <Samu> can't that be speeded up?
19:12:21  <frosch123> so unless the wiki magically exposes the email of the old owner, i would not bother
19:12:40  <frosch123> and if it does, we should just blank all personal data from the wiki db
19:12:42  <TrueBrain> over 1800 users edited the wiki over the last 20 years :P
19:13:01  <TrueBrain> no, the wiki is linked to the LDAP; it only has the display-name in its database
19:13:03  <TrueBrain> that is not an issue
19:13:11  <frosch123> but only 5 users in the last 5 years :p
19:13:27  <Samu> gonna try SwapList
19:13:46  <TrueBrain> <- to give a more concrete example, pages like this aren an issue to me
19:14:27  <frosch123> <- those?
19:14:40  <frosch123> <- or that?
19:14:48  <TrueBrain> all good examples
19:14:55  <TrueBrain> I am tempted to see if you can lock user pages
19:15:02  <TrueBrain> simply don't allow any mutations to them
19:15:12  <TrueBrain> as then I really do not care what name the system gave you
19:15:18  <frosch123> <- important people have a page in the global namespace :p
19:15:38  <TrueBrain> which is fine; anyone can edit that page, so what-ever
19:16:09  <frosch123> the same holds for the user pages?
19:16:17  <TrueBrain> weren't they locked to the user?
19:16:42  <frosch123> <- there are even ip-only
19:16:44  <TrueBrain> (I can't tell either way, as I am admin :P)
19:16:56  <TrueBrain> okay, in that case I don't care
19:16:57  <TrueBrain> fine
19:17:03  <TrueBrain> wiki we just switch OAuth to GitHub, and done
19:17:05  <TrueBrain> eints same
19:17:17  <TrueBrain> that makes BaNaNaS a bit easier; also fewer authors
19:18:15  <TrueBrain> right .. small application which can do OAuth; you go there, it asks you to login to OpenTTD. After that, it asks you to login to GitHub. Migrates your stuff from one user to the other, and sends you to the logout or something. After that, login via GitHub, and lets go
19:18:50  <frosch123> i would reverse the login order. first github (since it may involve sign-up), then ottd
19:19:16  <TrueBrain> not sure it matters, tbh
19:19:21  <TrueBrain> I can see pros and cons for both
19:19:33  <TrueBrain> hmm, maybe not an oauth app, maybe just a small webapp
19:20:15  <frosch123> you mean, people shall just enter their github id, without auth?
19:20:22  <TrueBrain> no
19:20:42  <TrueBrain> the frontend is also a webapp; you don't see anyone entering a github id there either :D
19:20:54  <TrueBrain> I was first thinking linking him in the authentication mechanism we have now
19:21:03  <TrueBrain> but we can also just make a link: migrate your OpenTTD account?
19:22:28  <frosch123> <- haha, NewFace sounds like a newgrf feature
19:23:14  <frosch123> don't even think of updating that page :)
19:23:17  <TrueBrain> back in the day where NewGRF was just to manipulate existing things :P
19:24:21  <TrueBrain> I completely forgot I wrote that page, so no, I aint touching that :P
19:24:24  <andythenorth> truebrain has a birthdate :o
19:24:31  <andythenorth> 5 years after me
19:24:32  <TrueBrain> no, a creation date
19:25:06  <frosch123> andythenorth: most dev pages have
19:25:11  <frosch123> noone validated them though
19:25:16  <andythenorth> sock puppets
19:26:42  <TrueBrain> okay, so: you login, you get a page: Login via GitHub / Login (Development only) / Migrate your OpenTTD account. You click that last button, it logs you in to OpenTTD and GitHub (in what-ever order). Via the API it adds the GitHub accounts with the OpenTTD session, and removes the OpenTTD accounts with the GitHub session to the API. After that, you continue with the GitHub session
19:26:56  <TrueBrain> next time you try to migrate, it tells you you have no packages under that username, and as such, cannot migrate
19:27:39  <frosch123> or we add a "migrate old ottd account" to the manager page
19:27:48  <frosch123> so you login via gh to the regular bananas frontend
19:28:18  <TrueBrain> the issue I have with these kind of things, that we add stuff to the frontend for migration. I have seen that, that code is never going to be removed. So I was more thinking doing this outside the API / frontend, so those are kept clean of this
19:28:55  <frosch123> that means we need a special migration app registered to gh
19:29:03  <frosch123> and users have to approve both migration and bananas
19:29:05  <TrueBrain> no, we do not :)
19:29:26  <TrueBrain> it just hooks into the OAuth flow that is already there, basically :)
19:32:16  <TrueBrain> if we do only username/password for now, it makes it a bit easier. We can see how much people complain about that, and add email later. Emailing is just a bit of a pita, basically.
19:32:23  <TrueBrain> just to scope this a bit :P
19:32:39  <TrueBrain> okay, I will have to draw this out, but this might work tbh
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19:33:10  <TrueBrain> it is light-weight, it is easy, and it can be removed at any time
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19:42:21  <TrueBrain>
19:42:24  <TrueBrain> I hope it makes sense ..
19:42:27  <TrueBrain> it is getting late :P
19:42:40  <Samu> I got a proble. When I do "local list = other_list;" and then add an item to list, why does the other_list also get the item added?
19:42:57  <Samu> feels like they're glued together under 2 different names
19:43:53  <Samu> how do I create a copy of other_list without resorting to "list.AddList(other_list);"?
19:44:01  <Samu> because this method is too slow
19:44:46  <nielsm> yes when you juad do local list = other_list; you're making a reference to the same object
19:47:38  <frosch123> TrueBrain: there are 446 unique authors on bananas, shouldn't we just do "send forum pm with your github username"?
19:47:52  <TrueBrain> send to what?
19:48:03  <frosch123> to one of us
19:48:07  <Samu> there is no faster method?
19:48:11  <TrueBrain> owh, as text on the site
19:48:20  <frosch123> tt-forums pm
19:48:28  <TrueBrain> no, where someone would read how to do that
19:48:29  <TrueBrain> that was my question
19:48:44  <frosch123> ah yes, just a message on the frontpage
19:49:04  <TrueBrain> 2 assumptions there: 1) that people have a tt-forums account (but they can make one, ofc), 2) that the username matches their OpenTTD account .. how do we validate the validity/
19:49:19  <frosch123> to get access to your old content, message xyz and prove your identity (easy if you have a tt-forums account)
19:49:56  <frosch123> TrueBrain: main assumption: most authors have a tt-forums account, and their content links to a tt-forum thread with them as thread starter
19:50:05  <TrueBrain> it feels like a lot ofhazzle for the user
19:50:15  <frosch123> and no, people are not supposed to create a tt-forums account, if they have none yet
19:50:49  <frosch123> TrueBrain: hazzle for who? the author sending stuff, or us filling the info manually into some script?
19:51:07  <TrueBrain> authors need to do some work, which is of course not user-friendly
19:51:23  <TrueBrain> but our speed of picking up anything community related like this .. is not the best track-record, I would say :D
19:51:59  <TrueBrain> nevertheless, I am okay with it, if we can make it a bit more flexible
19:52:20  <frosch123> it's only 205, if you do not count people with a single upload
19:52:51  <TrueBrain> how about .. 1) your content has an URL to a tt-forums thread; send us a PM with that thread; 2) send as an email from the one you used during registering; 3) ???
19:53:11  <TrueBrain> 2) ofc with your username (NOT YOUR PASSWORD)
19:53:36  <frosch123> it's only 131 if you exclude scenario and heightmaps, which are never updated anyway
19:54:00  <TrueBrain> again, I am not against it. We just have to be aware that it is not really user-friendly. If we accept that, fine by me
19:54:09  <frosch123> TrueBrain: whatever the text is, i think we can handle this manually without an app
19:54:49  <frosch123> an entire app that is at best used 131 times :)
19:54:52  <TrueBrain> hmm .. they should make an issue on the github repo btw, otherwise it will be hard to get their id
19:55:18  <frosch123> pretty sure that id is public
19:57:07  <TrueBrain> curl -v
19:57:08  <frosch123> TrueBrain: yep, curl gives me the id for a username without auth
19:57:28  <frosch123> you missed the 123
19:57:35  <frosch123> curl
19:57:36  <TrueBrain> I picked some random other dude, I guess :P
19:58:04  <frosch123> otherwise i would not have the 123 :)
19:58:09  <TrueBrain> okay, so we need to figure out the options we are giving them
19:58:57  <TrueBrain> 3000 out of the 5000 have a tt-forums url
19:59:01  <TrueBrain> so that should catch most
19:59:35  <TrueBrain> so let them PM me and you, I would say
19:59:36  <frosch123> 1) register to github, if you haven't already. 2a) contact xyz via tt-forums pm and a link to your github user page. 2b) or send an email to info@ with your original email, and a link to your github user  page
19:59:38  <TrueBrain> email to info@
20:00:03  <TrueBrain> with 2a) a link to a tt-forums post of any of your content
20:00:09  <TrueBrain> saves us doing any work :P
20:00:55  <TrueBrain> do we have any other means to offer
20:01:16  <TrueBrain> contact us on IRC if neither works out for you, and we will figure it out
20:02:53  <frosch123> 3) sorry for the inconvenience
20:03:00  <TrueBrain> 2b) is easy to validate for us. 2a) we have to be a bit careful, and check if the tt-forums link matches the author. But that should be fine
20:03:21  <TrueBrain> okay; so all we need is a small script that fixes the authors, basically
20:04:07  <Samu> nielsm, I need a faster method than  "list.AddList(other_list);", do you know any?
20:04:19  <TrueBrain> I will take care of that tomorrow
20:04:43  <TrueBrain> frosch123: like I wrote, I also want to add a page when you press Manager, that tells you you are about to authenticate with GitHub. Currently it feels too much magic, and it is a bit scary. You agree?
20:04:44  <Samu> faster, in terms of less cpu usage
20:04:48  <nielsm> Samu well why do you need to duplicate the list? and does it need to be a full list or really something else?
20:05:05  <frosch123> TrueBrain: yes
20:05:16  <TrueBrain> I will add that tomorrow too
20:05:18  <Samu> I am keeping track of the list of tiles a path uses
20:05:33  <TrueBrain> after that, fixing reload in the API, making the server-reload work
20:05:41  <TrueBrain> add some notes about the 15 minute delay between edit and seeing it ingame
20:05:48  <TrueBrain> and that would empty my list for now :D
20:05:54  <TrueBrain> Getting close :D
20:06:11  <TrueBrain> for now, good night :)
20:06:12  <frosch123> .tar/.zip/... upload is still open :)
20:06:21  <TrueBrain> "optional" to me :P
20:06:41  <TrueBrain> fine fine ... but that can be done after the deadline of the 30th
20:07:06  <frosch123> sure, we just delay people getting their accounts merged, claiming we are busy :)
20:07:17  <TrueBrain> if possible, I would like to aim to go live monday / tuesday. But we should not rush it in the sense that we feel we have to, but delaying any more might also not be useful
20:07:46  <TrueBrain> pretty sure we can spend weeks more making this perfect and shiny etc :P
20:07:56  <nielsm> Samu that doesn't explain why you need to duplicate the list
20:08:03  <Samu> in the AyStar.Path, I keep a list up to this point for each partial-path
20:08:07  <nielsm> is it that you need to backtrack/"undo" steps?
20:08:31  <Samu> i have a path with tiles 1 2 and 3, each of the step has a list of tiles up to that point
20:08:39  <TrueBrain> it does, how ever, require more people testing, tbh :D
20:08:44  <glx> Samu: maybe clone works
20:08:50  <TrueBrain> owh well, we are also good with testing-in-production
20:08:58  <TrueBrain> I just need to make sure the binaries are being backed-up too :P
20:09:11  <TrueBrain> (the pods have no right to delete anything, so that should be fine tbh :P)
20:09:44  <Samu> I'm so bad at explaining things
20:10:02  <TrueBrain> anyway, I am going to watch a movie, so this all tomorrow :) Tomorrow is going to be another good day! Nice progress and work frosch123  :D (and andythenorth  ofc :D)
20:10:13  <andythenorth> thanks all
20:10:39  <TrueBrain> from idea to production in ... 2.5 months?
20:10:40  <TrueBrain> :D
20:10:41  <Samu> when I want to find a collision (a tile that already exists in a path), I found out that caching the list of tiles every step would speed up the pathfinder
20:11:28  <Samu> so each step has a copy of the old list + the current tile that im working on
20:11:39  <Samu> i can't manage to make a copy of the old list
20:12:11  <Samu> well, I can, via AddList, but that method eats cpu like nothing
20:12:22  <Samu> however, it results in much less ticks needed
20:12:22  <LordAro> Samu: there's usually a copy or clone method for these things
20:12:31  <LordAro> squirrel docs will tell you
20:12:42  <glx> I found a "clone"
20:13:37  <Samu> gonna check what I can do with that
20:13:50  <michi_cc> I'm quite sure the Squirrel clone will not work as it doesn't know anything about the internals of our ScriptList class.
20:14:28  <nielsm> yeah but then why does it need to be a ScriptList at all? if it's just a list of tileindexes?
20:14:32  <glx> local list = clone other_list; should work, but maybe it needs us to implement __cloned()
20:14:54  <nielsm> I'm quite sure using a native squirrel array is cheaper
20:16:32  <Samu> I've tested 3 methods
20:17:44  <Samu> the "normal" method, which is the one currently implemented in AyStar.6, resulted in 310 ticks
20:17:57  <Samu> the native squirrel array 283 ticks
20:18:09  <Samu> the AIList 224
20:18:22  <Samu> but heavy cpu, like 10 x more than the others
20:18:30  <nielsm> but now you're saying the AIList is slow to duplicate
20:18:40  <nielsm> so maybe the array is faster after all
20:19:04  <glx> he said cpu intensive, not slow ;)
20:19:47  <Samu> and all I wanted to do was to clone a list
20:20:16  <Samu> 		this._path_tiles = AIList();
20:20:16  <Samu> 		if (this._prev != null) this._path_tiles.AddList(this._prev._path_tiles);
20:20:52  <Samu> wanted to do something like: if (this._prev != null) this._path_tiles. = this._prev._path_tiles;
20:21:12  <Samu> without that dot
20:21:21  <Samu> if (this._prev != null) this._path_tiles = this._prev._path_tiles;
20:21:51  <Samu> the list is empty to begin with
20:22:05  <glx> do you really need to copy the list ?
20:22:23  <Samu> yes, caches in every step
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20:33:18  <Samu> 223 ticks, I gained 1 more tick :o
20:34:40  <michi_cc> Samu: Try if you like. AddList in the case of an empty target list seems overly complicated to me, but maybe I missed something, but I think that patch should work.
20:35:52  <Samu> that was fast
20:36:06  <Samu> thx
20:36:08  <Samu> gonna test
20:36:56  *** skrzyp has joined #openttd
20:40:52  <Samu> this->modifications++ seems weird, u sure that's correct?
20:42:36  <michi_cc> Yes, it is simply a marker used in Valuate(). The actual value is not important, just that it changes when the list changes.
20:42:58  <Samu> oh, nice
20:43:42  <Samu> better rebuild solution, visual studio has some weird problems from time to time
20:43:51  <Samu> give me 5 min
20:50:22  <Samu> eh.. not much of a gain, I hoped for better
20:51:18  <michi_cc> It should not gain you any ticks at all, just consume a bit less CPU.
20:52:57  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/bananas-frontend-web] frosch123 opened pull request #27: PR of the day
20:53:18  *** tokai|noir has joined #openttd
20:53:18  *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai|noir
20:55:10  <Samu> be back later, testing fast forward
20:56:12  <michi_cc> Your tick count is a proxy for number of opcodes used, and native calls count the same (with a few exceptions), not matter if they use more or less real CPU time.
20:58:38  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/bananas-api] frosch123 opened issue #42: API endpoint to get URL for OAuth access review
20:59:19  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/bananas-frontend-web] TrueBrain approved pull request #27: PR of the day
20:59:32  <frosch123> must have been a boring movie :)
20:59:53  <TrueBrain> Nah. Just want to keep the flow going :)
21:00:14  *** tokai has quit IRC
21:05:14  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/bananas-frontend-web] frosch123 merged pull request #27: PR of the day
21:05:15  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/bananas-frontend-web] frosch123 closed issue #20: No link to upload new package from the package overview
21:12:39  <frosch123> andythenorth: i updated my static branch, you can fork it again :)
21:12:49  <andythenorth> thanks
21:14:13  <Samu> i'm back, well, in fast forward, it is faster
21:15:33  <Samu> started in 1935 jan, and now it's jun 1938 vs aug 1937, there's some improvement
21:15:38  <Samu> make a PR :p
21:16:35  <Samu> so instead of 10x slower, it's about 6x slower now
21:16:57  <Samu> michi_cc,
21:17:06  <Samu> gonna head to bed, take care
21:17:46  *** Samu has quit IRC
21:18:42  <andythenorth>
21:20:24  *** snail_UES_ has quit IRC
21:34:41  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc opened pull request #8097: Codechange: [Script] Improve copying a list into another empty list.
21:37:14  <FLHerne> Is wrong?
21:37:40  <FLHerne> No
21:38:05  <frosch123> is there no LEQ and GEQ?
21:38:21  *** snail_UES_ has joined #openttd
21:38:54  <FLHerne> There are, but I just realized it really shouldn't use them :P
21:41:02  <andythenorth> wrt nml, some weekend work stuff has come up
21:41:16  <andythenorth> it's unlikely I can finish release notes + release
21:41:24  <andythenorth> we are sooo close though :)
21:41:59  <mcbanhas> Guys I'm adjusting the following description text for the wagon removal tool:
21:42:27  <mcbanhas> ORIGINAL: "Make autoreplace keep the length of a train the same by removing wagons (starting at the front), if replacing the engine would make the train longer"
21:42:54  <mcbanhas> EDIT: "Automatically removes one or more wagons at the front of train to maintain length, if replacing with a multiple unit locomotive."
21:43:19  <nielsm> why are you introducing multiple units there?
21:43:37  <mcbanhas> Is it not the issue though?
21:43:57  <nielsm> no, locos can have different lengths while still being a single length
21:44:06  <andythenorth> or wagons
21:44:19  <mcbanhas> Aaah right right
21:44:23  <nielsm> *while being a single unit
21:44:26  <mcbanhas> let me adjust that then.
21:44:30  <andythenorth> is there a separate tooltip for wagons part of auto-replace?
21:45:00  <mcbanhas> "Automatically removes one or more wagons at the front of train to maintain length, if replacing with a longer locomotive."
21:45:02  <mcbanhas> Now?
21:45:35  <nielsm> "Prevent trains from becoming longer due to replacement. This is done by removing wagons from the front of the train, until it's as long as or shorter than it was before the locomotive replacement."
21:45:42  <nielsm> is maybe not good either
21:45:48  <andythenorth> the current tooltip is inaccurate
21:46:03  <andythenorth> it's not just engines, wagons also change length
21:46:14  <andythenorth> so 'vehicles'
21:46:33  <mcbanhas> Alright so
21:47:00  <andythenorth> "Automatically removes one or more wagons at the front of train to maintain length, if replacement vehicles are longer."
21:47:06  <andythenorth> not quite right but factual
21:47:20  <mcbanhas> Much better, thanks
21:47:24  <andythenorth> bit clunky
21:47:28  <andythenorth> longer than what?
21:47:38  <nielsm> actually I wonder, does wagon removal do any rounding of train length?
21:47:46  <andythenorth> it's remarkably magical
21:47:50  <andythenorth> or so simple I misunderstand it
21:47:52  <nielsm> e.g. a train changing from length 4.2 to 4.5 would never be a problem in practice
21:48:08  <andythenorth> it works *really* well whenever I use it, including accidentally supporting brake vans
21:48:41  <nielsm> while going from 4.8 to 5.1 would be a problem
21:49:10  <andythenorth> the rounding of train lengths is best not looked at :P
21:49:13  <FLHerne> mcbanhas: "Remove wagons (starting at the front) if the train would become longer otherwise."
21:49:20  <nielsm> and 4.4 to 4.7 usually not a problem, unless you're relying on diagonal signal distances
21:49:23  <andythenorth> one of my kids noticed it doesn't round as a human would expect
21:49:40  <andythenorth> due to integer maths probably, unless it's....just a bug
21:49:49  <FLHerne> andythenorth: I suspect brakevans are *why* it starts at the front?
21:50:01  <andythenorth> it's pretty smart
21:50:10  <andythenorth> it's one of my favourite openttd features
21:50:32  <mcbanhas> FLHerne, thanks, but I'm going with andythenorth's version. It doesn't require brackets and is less confusing.
21:50:34  <FLHerne> andythenorth: The weird rounding is just because of train-lengths being in 16ths
21:51:00  <FLHerne> You can have commas instead
21:51:32  <FLHerne> "Remove wagons, starting from the front, if the train would become longer otherwise."
21:51:39  <FLHerne> I find andy's hard to read, tbh
21:51:41  <FLHerne> It's too long
21:53:49  <andythenorth> +1
21:54:18  <FLHerne> Also, "removes wagons *at* the front" is confusing
21:54:24  <FLHerne> Wagons are never at the front :P
21:54:29  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/bananas-api] frosch123 opened issue #43: Publishing updates fails
21:54:40  <nielsm> well, gn
21:55:03  <mcbanhas> Well that really depends on you ahah
21:56:35  <FLHerne> "Remove wagons if the train would otherwise be made longer. Wagons closest to the front are removed first."
21:56:43  <FLHerne> *become longer
21:57:03  <mcbanhas> Not bad, but I still don't like "otherwise"
21:57:08  <FLHerne> *would become longer otherwise
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21:57:53  <FLHerne> Just "if replacement vehicles are longer" isn't technically accurate
21:58:05  <mcbanhas> what about "Remove wagons from the front"?
21:58:10  <FLHerne> There might be some that are longer than the originals, and some shorter
21:58:28  <FLHerne> Like I said before, I find that really confusing
21:58:39  <FLHerne> Wagons can never be at the front
21:59:31  <mcbanhas> what if you have a train in the depot that happens to have a wagon at the front?
21:59:53  <FLHerne> Then it isn't a train, so far as OTTD is concerned
22:00:12  <FLHerne> (IIRC)
22:00:14  <glx> I think the rounding is "tile" based
22:00:17  <mcbanhas> But would it be affected by the replacement though?
22:00:34  <glx> but I didn't check the code
22:01:19  <glx> the idea is to make sure the new train still fit in same stations as old train
22:02:08  <FLHerne> mcbanhas: N
22:02:11  <FLHerne> mcbanhas: No
22:02:23  <FLHerne> Replacement only occurs when a train enters a depot
22:02:23  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/bananas-frontend-web] frosch123 opened pull request #28: Fix: Upload entirely new packages failed.
22:02:41  *** nielsm has quit IRC
22:02:52  <mcbanhas> "Remove wagons if the replacement makes the train longer. Wagons closest to the front are removed first."
22:02:54  <mcbanhas> or
22:03:00  <mcbanhas> "Remove wagons if vehicle replacement makes the train longer. Wagons closest to the front are removed first."
22:03:19  <mcbanhas> I prefer present tense to conditional
22:03:50  <FLHerne> Hm
22:04:02  <FLHerne> I can't say I like that one much either
22:04:22  <frosch123> how do those sentences differ in tense?
22:04:29  <FLHerne> I think it has the correct meaning at least
22:04:36  <frosch123> i only spot "the" vs "vehicle"
22:04:37  <FLHerne> frosch123: Compared to my version, I think
22:04:49  <frosch123> ah, ok :)
22:04:52  <mcbanhas> These don't, but FLHerne's version was in the conditional
22:05:40  <FLHerne> I /think/ the reason I don't like this one is that I tend to think of "autoreplace" as the entire process
22:06:09  <mcbanhas> You gotta put this into context though, you'll be reading this in the autoreplace window
22:06:18  <FLHerne> Or not even that
22:06:21  <mcbanhas> so you know that this is part of the autoreplace process
22:06:55  <glx> <-- tile based length
22:07:00  <mcbanhas> It's actually the reason why my first version had "automatically" as the first word.
22:07:01  <FLHerne> Just that "if vehicle replacement makes the train longer" reads like the opposite of what it does
22:08:30  <mcbanhas> Then yeah, I guess you need conditional for that
22:08:32  <FLHerne> I know you mean the removal *compensates for* that, but at a glance it seems conflicting
22:08:43  <mcbanhas> It would have to be "would make the train longer"
22:09:05  *** sla_ro|master has quit IRC
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22:12:41  <FLHerne> Hm
22:12:57  <FLHerne> Actually, the *goal* is to prevent the train becoming longer
22:13:12  <FLHerne> Removing wagons is just a means
22:13:37  <mcbanhas> That's the point of conditional tense.
22:13:46  <glx> and longer meaning overflowing in next tile
22:13:59  <FLHerne> "Prevent the train becoming longer by removing wagons if necessary. Wagons closest to the front are removed first."
22:14:02  *** cHawk- has joined #openttd
22:14:21  <FLHerne> I mean, not burying the lede ^
22:14:33  <FLHerne> (although I don't like that wording now I read it)
22:16:12  <glx> basically, with default vehicles, single unit and 6 wagons can become multi unit and 6 wagons without having to remove any
22:16:33  <FLHerne> Ok
22:16:52  <FLHerne> I don't think it's worth trying to make that distinction in the tooltip though
22:17:45  <FLHerne> Players only care about rounded-up-to-a-tile length, which is why that mechanic exists in the first place
22:18:11  <mcbanhas> Wait, but if you replace a single unit with a multi unit and it does not remove wagons, wouldn't that be problematic if i.e, your station is shorter than the new train length?
22:18:46  <FLHerne> mcbanhas: In glx's example it goes from 3.5 to 4
22:19:10  <mcbanhas> Oh right
22:19:26  <FLHerne> i.e. it'll allow the train to become longer so long as the new length is still within the same tile length
22:19:30  <mcbanhas> Yeah, and in that case, tile length is the only thing that matters.
22:19:35  *** cHawk has quit IRC
22:20:16  <FLHerne> I think in case of signal sections on angled track a fractional-tile change could make a difference
22:20:17  <glx> it's so it still fits in stations, signal blocks, whatever
22:20:27  <FLHerne> But clearly no-one cares in practice
22:20:46  <glx> trains are shorter in diagonals :)
22:21:09  <mcbanhas> Anyone sane has a signal every other tile, either way.
22:23:17  <FLHerne> That's a good way to go bankrupt with infrastructure maintenance on
22:23:24  <FLHerne> Also, ugly as sin
22:23:32  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/bananas-frontend-web] frosch123 opened pull request #29: Fix: Make the navigation bar wider to fit all the categories, and mov…
22:23:42  <glx> and used to be a pain for bridges
22:24:01  <frosch123> night
22:24:03  *** frosch123 has quit IRC
22:24:22  <mcbanhas> What about "Automatically removes wagons to prevent train from becoming longer. Wagons closest to the front are removed first."
22:25:36  <FLHerne> Better
22:26:22  <FLHerne> Not quite sure about 'automatically'
22:26:49  <FLHerne> "Removes wagons if needed to prevent the train from becoming longer. Wagons..."
22:26:52  <FLHerne> ?
22:27:12  <FLHerne> No, "needed" has conflicting meanings there
22:27:36  <FLHerne> The wagons are the opposite of needed :P
22:27:40  <mcbanhas> Yeah that's why I prefer the "automatically"
22:27:42  <mcbanhas> it implies that
22:28:51  <mcbanhas> I think I'm going with this one
22:29:02  <FLHerne> What if I just get rid of 'otherwise' from my earlier one?
22:29:09  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Berbe commented on pull request #7328: Feature: Improve restart command
22:29:15  <FLHerne> "Remove wagons if the train would become longer. Wagons..."
22:29:38  <FLHerne> Or even with your 'automatically'
22:30:03  <FLHerne> "Automatically remove wagons if the train would become longer. Wagons closest to the front are removed first."
22:30:43  <FLHerne> Yes, I like that last one
22:30:55  <mcbanhas> I kinda fancy the present continuous in "becoming longer"
22:31:26  <mcbanhas> (That just sounded riské)
22:31:41  *** Tirili has quit IRC
22:31:42  <FLHerne> It's linguistically nice, but I don't think it's easy to read
22:32:37  <FLHerne> "to prevent train from becoming" is a lot of grammar
22:33:00  <FLHerne> And I still find it strange without a conditional, even if the 'automatically' sort of implies it
22:33:08  <mcbanhas> "if the train would become" is just as much
22:34:32  <FLHerne> That's not true, you've got an extra verb :P
22:35:02  <mcbanhas> We can dumbify the sentence.
22:35:08  <mcbanhas> "...if the train gets longer"
22:35:53  <FLHerne> Same as my earlier objection
22:36:37  <FLHerne> "the train gets longer" refers to a hypothetical intermediate stage
22:37:42  <FLHerne> That doesn't actually happen, because the feature does the opposite
22:38:26  * FLHerne will run out of paint for this bikeshed soon :P
22:39:19  <mcbanhas> I still prefer the present. "If the train becomes longer"
22:39:42  <mcbanhas> mainly because conditional is rarely employed in tooltips
22:41:26  <FLHerne> Without the conditional, I really do find it confusing
22:41:43  <FLHerne> Possibly we need another opinion as a tiebreaker or something :P
22:45:55  <mcbanhas> present makes sense, because it is what happens if wagon removal is not on
22:46:18  <mcbanhas> I'm just gonna go with present at this point
22:47:13  *** andythenorth has quit IRC
22:48:22  <mcbanhas> FLHerne, would you like to test my new english.lng?
22:49:41  <FLHerne> "because it is what happens if wagon removal is not on" is exactly my objection ;-)
22:49:57  <FLHerne> mcbanhas: Yes, would be interesting to try it out
22:51:58  <mcbanhas> Ok, I should let you know I made some major changes to tooltips. A lot of things have been condensed or shortened. Capitalization is mostly changed to sentence-style. Tooltips are organized the following way: 1 - Title with colons, 2 - description, 3 - additional shortcuts ("Ctrl+click does X")
22:52:32  <FLHerne> mcbanhas: I've seen the thread and github issue
22:52:42  <mcbanhas> ok cool
22:52:43  <FLHerne> (although not looked at them in the last few days)
22:53:14  <mcbanhas> I'll just throw the .lng in a file upload thingy. One moment.
22:53:27  <mcbanhas> Oh wait, this is IRC
22:53:31  <mcbanhas> there's DCC
22:55:54  <mcbanhas> FLHerne, are you using webchat or something similar? DCC is not working
22:55:58  <FLHerne> Huh, no-one's sent me anything over DCC in years
22:56:17  <FLHerne> I got a DCC request and accepted it
22:56:17  <mcbanhas> Brings back memories huh
22:56:21  <FLHerne> Then it timed out
22:56:24  <FLHerne> (just now)
22:56:37  *** andythenorth has joined #openttd
22:56:46  <mcbanhas> try now
22:56:57  <mcbanhas> crap
22:57:02  <FLHerne> Looks the same again
22:57:05  <mcbanhas> prolly a firewall issue
22:57:11  <FLHerne> Oh, might be that I'm behind this znc bouncer
22:57:23  <mcbanhas> i'll put it on mediafire
22:57:41  *** andythenorth has quit IRC
22:57:49  <FLHerne> Hm, apparently it ought to work
22:59:05  <mcbanhas>
22:59:48  <FLHerne> Got it
23:00:03  <mcbanhas> If you see any stuff you don't like or find weird, take notes or screenshots and send them to me or put it in the thread
23:03:22  <FLHerne> Ok
23:03:31  * FLHerne might sleep now, it's gone midnight
23:03:40  <FLHerne> Thanks for your work on this
23:06:28  <mcbanhas> Sure, thanks for your help
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